death of a princess-Revisited

Man, I do not think you can identify "religious issue" and "Cultural issue" as 2 separate unrelated entities especially in this region of the world. I think of them 2 be very related and influencing one another especially in Islam.

-Religion defines this culture

-Culture redefines religion and this is obvious in the fatwas and Islamic sects segregating among the years, which loops to again defines the sub culture

And to those defending Saudi/Gulf countries treatment to women. Sorry people wake the hell up. Special cases do exist Diamond and it shows in your education level btw :) but common, the avg local woman in these places have no rights compared to men. And people talking about traditions and all that.. well not all traditions necessarily make sense these days.

Ah well

I pray for that too DudefromVegas and welcome to Doha...

I just watched this film and read the debate here on QL. As I read the discussion above, I noticed very quickly that the two points of view being argued are basically western vs. middle eastern. I come from arguably the most liberalized city (It's not called Sin City for nothing.) in the most liberalized country in the world. We are also a very egalitarian society in the US. We do not have a caste system in our society. Our views on women's rights and gender and racial equality are very different from much of the rest of the world.

In the film, and now that I live here in Qatar, I have observed, that Arab culture and Islam are not necessarily the same thing. Remember, the reason given for the princess’s execution was that she disgraced the family (a cultural issue), not because she disobeyed the teachings of the Quran (a religious issue). We Americans have not been taught the difference. We have been taught that “Muslim” and “Arab” are interchangeable terms, they are not.

I thought the two most powerful lines in the film and its commentary were; a) that in order to survive, Arabs need to learn to be schizophrenic, and b) that if you ask 12 people to describe an event, you get 12 truths.

I found it interesting that in the last segment where the woman from the US Council of Foreign Relations stated that in the 25 years since the film was made, reforms had taken place in KSA where the rights of women were increased, and the restrictions on the movements were relaxed and if you ask around, some people say things are better, some people say things are just as bad as they always were. Somewhere in-between lies the truth.

In the last 25 years or so, I have observed from news reports and discussions with people who have been there, that the plight of women in KSA and the Middle East in general, has become increasingly relaxed. Whether this is good or bad appears to be a cultural debate. Change is difficult, for everyone. And as the world becomes a smaller place due to advances in technology, cultural change has accelerated. This is why people find the need to grasp tightly to their traditions. And things are only going to get faster and more stressful as time goes by. I pray we can learn to live without killing each other.

PM..thanks for the diplomacy..

PM, either use I do or I don't.

The use of qualifying words such as I think and I probably makes us just as strong in both sides of the argument in which case we are equal.

Alexa,

Would you please highlight the differences in a detailed manner (be as detailed as you can be please)

PM..

Alexa,

Qatari women, and I am generalising now, go to and support segregated schooling and work environment. There are alot of Qatari women, who go to mixed systems just because they have to. It does not mean though those women support desegregation.

Today morning, many girls called a radio program presenter, complaining about Qatar University (QU) policy of announcing desegregated system. It was in fact a misunderstanding, either by the presenter or girls who were listening to the program, of the reported news. the program presenter had to correct his mistake saying to the girls on air: Please note that you misunderstood, the QU manager, cousing of shiekha Mouza who is a woman, stressed that QU will remain a segregated schooling system stating clearly that we maintain Qatari values".

Complains from Qatari women show you they support segregation at thier will. Segregation is a preventive measure if you like. Men are also segregated and it is not an opression to us.

Please note there are areas in our community which is segregated, where women can go to our section but we may not go to thier section. is not this an advantage to them? indeed, but we are fine with this. We prioritize women, that is why she is allowed to do what we may not do. examples are, hospitals, shopping centres, segregated working environments. In those places, women can go to men section, but men will be blocked to get into women section.

You have a point PM in saying why women need a consent to travel while men do not. as i said earlier, women too can do what we may not be able to do in other situations. This is a religious legislation I believe. I will get back to you on this with more information.

It should not be viewed that she needs to sacrifize to meet the requirement of religion. As an example, myself, a muslim male, cannot by stocks of voda fone which is profitable without a doubt, because it is proven to be no Islamic law compliant. in both cases, this should not be done because it is not allowed based on religion guidelines which have logic. (Please note that there are muslims who don't follow what Islam asks for- but this is a different issue)

All, let me ask you this:

Are there differences between men and women?

PM..

When women travel abroad...in Saudi not here...they need consent from parents or husbands or so. I am not sure how this affects starting businesses though!

Please note that women in Saudi can go to ministries, hospitals, shopping centres on thier own. No burdens whatsoever.

When i refer to segregation, i am refering for cases such as schools and work.

Let us stick for the school and university example for a start.

Do you consider segregation of sexes in universities for example a form of oppression?

PM..you stated earlier:

(I know some Saudi business women who have to set up their businesses in Bahrain in order to operate under their leadership and without ridiculous limitations that were not even in place on business women during the time of the Prophet (saw) to my understanding.) This is where you talked about limitations.

If we were placed in the middle of the ocean, we would have been on shore by now. I think we drifted considerably.

Back to track, is segregation between males and females in Qatar and/or Saudi a form of opression?

My answer is no..

Do women have a choice?

Yes they do...

PM..Mixing while mahram is around maybe justified and is happening in wide areas in Qatar and in Saudi..Aisha example is good..she went to war while mahram is around and this is what is happening nowadays...in Saudi they request mahram's company...

Please don't use words like purdah as it refers to the Indian system..which I respect...but I am not familiar with it and I am not surehow it compares to Islamic system.

The problem with you using Khadijah's to compare with nowadays are the different conditions...I am not sure why you said there are burdens nowadays that did not exist then..you are yet the provide those..

Why would you argue if you are yet to read up on the issue...you can read and come back when you prepared..provided I don't die..I shall reply.

US racism...you said:

(There was one small township in the 1970s (called Soul City) that attempted to secede from the nation to create an all-Black city but other than that there is no history of African-Americans and Anglo-Americans dividing up States. )

What about the group called 'Nation Of Islam' which was a prefectly racist organisation. Did not they ask for separate states?

religious commitment, that means it's not oppression? Are the two things mutually exclusive?

Hindusim has the caste system, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who thinks THAT isn't oppressive.

But perhaps you would, since you'd see it as a religious commitment.

I love the way you reach your conclusions, CBD. That kind of circuitous thinking is really quite impressive.

LOL!

I'm not a Muslim, but I have read extensively on the subject, and just because when Prophet Mohammed married Khadija he hadn't yet begun to receive the revelation of the Koran doesn't mean that we can't look to Khadija's behavior as a model for Muslim women today. Khadija is one the two best role models for Muslim women (the other being Aisha), and how she behaved and the prominent role that she played (business woman, first convert to Islam, etc.) shouldn't be dismissed so casually by you simply because she and Prophet Mohammed married before the beginnings of Islam.

I trust that Prophet Mohammed approved of his wife's behavior, and so who are you to say that we cannot look to her as an example for women nowadays?

And while you didn't say (nor did I quote you as saying) women were whores, when you said "This equality, does not mean allowing women to go naked in the street where it does elsewhere", the implication was that you think that's what women in (my) western society do with freedom -- we run around naked.

Well guess what? We don't.

We actually become educated, raise families, contribute to our communities, become civically active in causes we believe in, travel, start businesses,...and a lot more things.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

ummjakke, I would appreciate it if you could be more courteous in your debate.

back to debate, When the prophet took care of Khadija's business, there was no Islam then! while PM is comparing certain conditions with other conditions. I said this earlier so why do you say i have not explained! I am giving you facts about history, Islam came 15 years ago after prophet traded for her! I am not sure who you spoke to and would be interested to know.

Is this good enough now?

I am yet to see PM's reply regarding Khadija's comparison so your reply won't be considered instead of hers. However, i considered your point above.

Blacks and whites were segregated in US purely on racist opressing basis while over in Saudi, segregation is a religious commitment.

Conclusion, segregation of women is not an opression.

Please remember ummjake that you have quoted that I think you are all whores, which is not true, so your misinterpretations record is noted.

I asked several people about PM's point re: Khadija, and your subsequent response, and universally everyone agreed with PM on that point (including me). Why do you think Khadija cannot be used as an example for women nowadays? You still have not explained that.

When I say something is not completely off the mark, then I am basically saying that there ARE some relevant points/comparisons to be made. PM's example of racism concerns black and whites. Here, the situation is between men and women. Not completely analagous because we're talking about two different groups of people, but similarities can be drawn -- as I pointed out in the specific treatment that the subordinate group in both examples (blacks and women) experienced.

If you disagree and are trying to convince me/others of your point of view, you're going to have to be more compelling than just saying "are you convinced now that this example does not work".

Your reasoning here is really rather facile. You haven't swayed me one iota.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

ummjake,

PM presented an argument that could not possibly be used here when she mentioned Khadija as a business women and I explainied why.

You say PM's analogy to racism in the US was not COMPLETELY off the mark, this tells me that her argument, to some extent is off the mark (based on your own words). Segregation in US which happened was between backs (males + females) and whites (males+females). Are you convinced now this example does not work for this argument? I hope so.

Please note that i did not say blacks or whites where forced to live in separate state. I said they asked to live in separate state. read again and you would know. There are black Americans who asked for separate state for blacks- a model which did not work.

PM, Now tell me this is not a misinterpretation! clearly is.

"women in Saudi, who have money, can start a business as they wish. They don't have to mix though to make that happen. This also does not mean they are deprived of thier right."

They may not HAVE TO mix to do something for their business, but by putting that restriction on them (and not on men), perhaps you ARE adversely affecting them and their business. Maybe (just an example I'm thinking up here) they'd have to go with a certain supplier because the one they would prefer, the one with the cheaper price, would require them to interact with men. So they are forced to go with the higher priced company to avoid this.

This would directly lead to disadvantaging them and their business, and would, I think, constitute depriving them of their rights because you do not similarly disadvantage male business owners.

I understand the point you're trying to make -- that there is some sort of modified way that women can kind of go about the same sorts of things that men can do there -- so you think that's fair. But as has been said before, separate but equal doesn't really work out to be truly equal.

PM's analogy to racism in the US wasn't completely off the mark; I think it's a relatively good comparison to make. Blacks and whites weren't forced to live in different states, as you said. But blacks DID have to sit in the back of the bus. They had certain sections in restaurants they had to sit in so they weren't mixing with the whites. They had separate schools. A lot of similar situations, I think...

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Alexa,

I really like what you posted. I agree to that 100%

PM, women in Saudi, who have money, can start a business as they wish. They don't have to mix though to make that happen. This also does not mean they are deprived of thier right.

Regarding Khadija, here are some facts. She was a business woman who had wealth. Prophet Muhammad, was known at his time to be trust worthy and believed in what he says. This was long time before he became the prophet of Islam. People at that time, travel to sell and buy to make money. Prohpet dealth with Khadija using her money to by and sell for her. Later on, he married Khadija at which time he was 25 years old and she was 40 years old. The message was revealed to him when he was about 40 years old. I would like to point out that you may not use khadija's model as an example for nowadays. At least not necessarily so. The reason is that Islam was not yet started. when Khadija dealth with the prophet, there was only the old arabic culture, no relgion (except very very few who were christians- vast majorities worshiped statues and stuff).

I hope you got what I mean. let me kow if you need further explanation.

Sah. Saudi is the keeper of the two mosques and has better education. If you agree that Saudi should lead on education. why would you argue then?

The khadijah example tells me you don't have strong argument. you don't have a valid comparison and yet argue otherwise.

regarding the races in the US, I don't think this example can serve the argument here. the reason is: human rights in US asked for complete segregations, where blacks occupy a certain state and whites occupy other states. I agree this model has failed for obvious reasons. However, segregation in Islam does not mean all women in one state and all men in another state. Do you think the two examples compare?

Human rights abuses. We are talking about Qatari/Arabic women and whether they are opressed by thier families. Human rights is a wide term including children, labour and every human. Let us stick to the main point. I argue that Qatari women are not opressed by thier families and ofcourse there are exceptions as would be anywhere else.

My point on weekend is we should not change and this is the view of most of the people.

My impression about the west is made on my personal observations, not the media which I never believe unless proven otherwise. I will not allow any person, religious or not, to mislead me. I would listen to people and if they convince me then fine, whether they are westerners or easterners. As it happens, I was misunderstood and I did not say everyone, some. My impression on the west is something which keeps changing with my personal experience. If you read a book about any culture, you will find out how weak it is in giving a full picture. so no matter how many books someone reads, or how many religious leaders he/she listens to; no one can have a general judgement. I respect the western culture and it is thier right to live thier life the way they want. All I am saying, is that westerners are mislead by thier government,sing the media, not all of them ofcourse, but great portion. Ofcourse there are Arabs who are completely unaware of westerners and have completely wrong impressions about them. However, in my judgement, western media effect on shaping people's views is greater than eastern media in shaping people's view. (different subject and I was forced into it)

PM, it is my business whether I am arguing for the sake of it or otherwise. You don't have to comment and you are most welcome should you wish to. Anyway, I am not that silly to argue just to argue, time is more precious than doing so.

knowing some Saudis, does not mean knowing all saudis. most of the Saudi women, and populations in general, are not potential enough to start thier own business. So how can you use this for few business women you know and apply it to the vast majority?

Could you please tell me what exists now that did not exit in prophet's time?

When we talk about knowledge, let us stick to the collective result, not look at one specific science field and compare the two. In general, Saudi has better educations in Islam, Medicine, civil engineering, petroleum engineering etc.

A difference I would like to point out between qatar and saudi, is segregation between men and women. Saudi segregates men and women in everything with justification except where it is allowed. I have been to Saudi hospitals, for example, nurses, doctors, work together. so it is not as some picture it. Saudi women are influential, they make movies believe it or not, they issue books, they work as TV presenters, they hold high positions within ministries. They don't have to mix sexes to prove they give women freedom and equal oppurtunity. the intent is to give women full rights.

We agree that human rights are violated, but those things happen just everywhere.

I agree to your last point, as an example, we have friday and saturday as weekends, there were some rumors about making saturday and sunday weekends, which many people opposed and fear as Friday is muslim's special day if i may call it that.

I saw that documentary long time ago i was still a teenager

Mandi,

Thanks for making the discussion worthwhile :)

CBD, exactly!

Mandi

Mandi,

I agree on that, which is true for our women too. A husband here does not tell his wife saying do n't have affair. This would be insult. However, it is known, she and he, should not do that. We don't view this as opression. It is commitment.

CBD, I don't think that Western women are not having affairs because their husbands told them not to. Most women are perfectly capable of making their own moral judgements.

Mandi

When will your misinterpretation stop!

I say our women as I would expect ladies to say our men. It is not slavery or discriminating term.

Our women do not allow us to do certain things and we in turn do the same. We don't say they control us.

Our women (my definition!) are so powerful and influential in our lives.

It is also about commitment. If you are married to a man, would he allow you to cheat on him? ofcourse not. Once you choose a husband, this goes to all nations, you are committed to him and may not cheat and vice versa.

Now, If you think I would be forcing my sister to marry a certain guy, then you would be wrong. This is her right and her life. I may advise, but decision is totally up to her. This is an example.

As we are muslims, we have commitment to follow its orders and directions. Additionally, the culture has its evolution regulated by religion which is source number 1. Islam, gives measures and rules on how women should dress and other stuff. Islam also gives measures and rules about how men should dress and other stuff.

Would I accuse a westerner or any other national of CONTROLLING women just because they may not have an affair with another guy? is that opression!

Formatted soul, you rise above rumors and misinterpretations lol

Deleted

bobs a curtsey...thank you lol :) Mandilulur, the men in my family were brought up to respect women as we were brought up to respect them. This includes believing that we are all capable of making our own decisions.

This business of 'allowing' women to do things is as alien to me as I'm sure it is to you :/

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Guys, Save energy, resources and most important the health... Do not sit in-front of the LCD for so long.

Just chill guys, nothing is going to change over this forum. Both sides have their own perspective and parameters.

Few being people (men & women) of faith, fear the God and know that they have to answer the Lord of any violations and shall be extra careful not to violate the boundaries set to Him.

The rules are set for all the creation (men & women) and the faith is completed with all the guidelines and yet no compulsion what so ever…..because every one of us has to answer our deeds/doings.

Let us have a nice weekend.

(Applauding loudly for diamond) I have this great mental image of your telling the men in your family they may not use the word "allow" when it comes to women. I'll just bet they do know better by now!

Mandi

that their husbands/fathers/brothers/sons/unrelated males don't allow them to do many things...

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

But aren't you reading Diamond, they aren't opressed, they're "protected"

I really don't think the oppression of women is something to laugh about.

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I was doing a research for a foreign media... and I came up with this conclusion..when its time it will be published. I hope you read in gulf times few months back...the statics about a related issue in Qatar.

Yes of course you are not alone...but they are probably not ALLOWED to expose their identity...which is not your case..lol

And what makes you so qualified to quote percentages about us 'women folk' of Qatar?

I don't think I'm alone in maintaining my anonymity on QL somehow lol.

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I thought you are trying to find a connection between me and CBD..

Lil bit of control is anytime better than ‘out of control’..lol

You represent progressive women folk of Qatar...but they make only less than 50% of the in the women in your society. But many of the less progressive women are not mysterious as you! wonder why?

Gypsy women are smart enough to take care of themselves..hmm now that is another topic..

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HE WHO DARES WINS

FS, who is talking about homosexuality here other than you?

And if you are indeed a female, that's even worse. You're coming across as a controlling bloke.

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you just have to face the consequences of your action, whether positive or negative consequences

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

Are we talking about children or women FS? I don't think children are smart and responsible and I think parents should control them, somewhat, however there's a difference in setting a curfew for your kids and not allowing them out of the house at all.

And the control in this society is not just on the children, it's on grown women as well.

CBD, 'your' women? Your possessions are they? Yes, of course they are. Do carry on making decisions for them. They must really love you for that. Urk.

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Now I am...when I was younger I wasnt..

If you think the girls from your place are smart responsible for themselves then so many peoople wont live in social security allowances and there wont be so many fatherless children in the society.

diamond..

I understand there are people who over do it.

But I totally disagree that not allowing is controlling.

There are alot of decisions and things we do for our women.

Gee, Formatted Soul, you, as a non-Qatari male knows more than me about Qatari females.

Yeah, right.

BTW, why does it not surprise me that CBD is also a male...is anyone else making the connection??????

Give me strength.

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I accept that Curious, I come from a country with just about every culture under the sun living and thriving in it. I know girls who want to be taken care of and protected and I know girls who don't. The thing is, my country gives them the right to make that decision for themselves, your's doesn't. You presume you know what every woman wants or should want and you force that on them.

No, Formatted Soul, when someone does not 'allow' another to do something, that is NOT the same as caring or protecting them. That is controlling them.

There is a clear difference.

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From what I have heard from other Qatari girls...you and your family represent only a minority. Many well educated girls I know need permission from parents for many small things.

Formatted Soul..spot on..

They just won't accept the fact that there are other culture by which life is defined.

Ummjakke..We cannot make progress here if you will misunderstand my point each time..

Secondly, About my statement on consensus. I am talking based on ground conditions. I know almost every type of Qatari man and even GCC communities. We have a very close culture. It is your failure and misleading propaganda that prevents you from measuring this society. We talk about it all the time and we know how we feel about it. It is up to you to take it or leave.

The law may have been biased here which I strobgly oppose if it happens to be as you described.

However, this does not change the fact that my view is that women and men should both be banned from en5tering a bar.

In fact, I am against openning bars in Doha. The way this should be, is to have exclusive bars only to those whom culture allow.

Law must be put in place even if we have a good feeling people won't behave, because there are exceptions.

" Do as i say, not as i do"

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

So basically FS you're accepting that you aren't smart enough to be responsible for yourself, and you're content with that.

By that definition Dmighty everyone in the world is opressed as there are things that we can't do everywhere. The difference is that everywhere else these rules are enforced on everyone, regardless of gender, race or religion, whereas here there are different rules for men and women, Qatari's and expats, etc.

In the case of Qatari's and expats, we choose to live here, so we accept those rules, But the women who are born here into Qatari families and have to live with these lopsided rules dont' have a choice. There brothers can go and do virtually as they please, while they can't.

Allowing doesn’t mean they are oppressed... it means care/protection..same as you think you are Responsible... in some culture parents/brothers are responsible for girls in the family..we don’t consider that as oppression...anything happens to the girl is not her problem ONLY...it effects the whole family. So its family’s responsibility too! You guys cant accept that because of the cultural differences.

CBD, please don't think you speak for all Qataris or know what all Qatarias want/desire, etc.

I am thankful you are not a member of my family. The men in my family don't use the word 'allow'. They know better than that.

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To an extent dmigty, yes, in that we need permission from our sponsors to do certain things. But we chose to enter that situation.

What i dont get is why do ppl start about women going naked or in see-thru miniskirts every time somebody starts talking about gender equality or women's rights.

Sounds like people who are against giving equal rights have this strange mental picture of all the women running into the streets in their birthday suits the moment they are 'allowed' (!) freedom!!

Anyways, i guess lotsa 'sin cities' thrive coz there are places where ppl are supposed to live in 'straight jackets'. Chkd out the latest chart toppers in the sin-city list? ;)

The thing UK is that in one society woman can choose to live their life as they please, whether inside or outside boundaries, and in another the woman have to do what men tell them.

that all expats here in Qatar are oppressed? Because we can not do all we want! Right?

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

curious - I would never dictate what you should and shouldn't allow. That's definitely not what I'm trying to do.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can't claim you support equal rights while at the same time talking about what women should and shouldn't be allowed to do.

Reading all the posts above.. Seeing two side of the arguments..

One saying that women that have sex outside of marriage is a whore/slug etc..

The other saying that women are surpressed and don't have choice.

Well these differences of cultures will always exists and one's opression is another freedom and feeling special. And another freedoms without bound is see as unethical..

And the end of the day they are both women. just is difference situations living their lives as their society arounds them accepts it..

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HE WHO DARES WINS

You were asked to answer how two different standards of behavior for men and women demonstrated equality between the genders.

And now you're yelling at us for questioning your standards...

You yourself just said that:

"Qatari girls for example, at thier own choice will not go to bars even if they were given the incentive!"

So why is there a need for a law forbidding them from going there if you agree they wouldn't go there on their own anyway? We're simply asking you to explain your reasoning to us on this point...and you're not doing that.

Every society has the right to set its own standards, provided they do not infringe upon the basic freedoms and rights that should be accorded to all people.

I would question your statement about there being general consensus on these issues -- because how can you accurately and honestly assess that in a society/region that doesn't have freedom of expression?

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

I ALLOW my cat onto the counter, I ALLOW my cat to eat Meow mix, I ALLOW my cat to go outside. I ALLOW these things because she is my pet and I am responsible for her because she is an animal.

When you say you ALLOW you're women to do this and that, you're treating them the way I treat my cat. Problem is, a woman is not a cat.

And I know lots of Qatari girls who'd love to go out dancing.

Tallg...implication of allow is your misinterpretation of the word...

Qatari girls for example, at thier own choice will not go to bars even if they were given the incentive! if you don't believe this, then it is your problem. There are exceptions ofcourse.

Do you really think you are good enough or wise enough or have the right to dictate what we should and should not allow?? is not this opression?

We have values, culture and religion which dictate our lives and it is our freedom to design it the way you like. Believe me, there is general consensus in our community about those issues which you oppose. You fail to se that apparently.

I just want to smack people who use the word "allow" with women's rights...like we're a bunch of 12 year olds who need supervision.

and Gypsy is right -- new laws permit local men to go to the bars (I was referring to the hotel bars, not the restaurants, genesis), but specifically forbid Qatari women from going there.

How is this equality, CBD?

I'll raise the point I brought up earlier: do you have so little faith in the women here (and how your society raises them) that you think they will behave like hootchie mamas or something? (Most women in the west have this freedom and most of us don't behave that way.)

And if you can't trust the women to behave well and make good decisions, then isn't that a bigger statement about the society here and how you're educating and teaching them?

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

No, I've seen the law genesis, it was passed out to all the hotels and it came from the Ministry of Interior, they aren't allowed in the nightclubs, that's what all this membership nonesense was about.

that's a rule from the hotel its self. NOT A LAW

curious - As soon as you use the word "allow" it immediately implies that the women don't have freedom.

They should be allowed to make their own decision as to whether they wear a short skirt or not, since as you state they are the same as men so should be capable of making their own decisions.

There is no written law that stops Qatari or Arab women from going Bars/ Hotel. You can find Qatari women in all licensed hotel Restaurants.

No Curious, according to new LAWS imposed by your government, Qatari men may go to bars, Qatari women may not.

I do believe all people are the same, regardless of colour and gender.

This though does not mean we should allow girls to walk on streets with a thin skirt where almost everything shows. If you consider this as freedom which women around here should have, then you are wrong.

Based on our values, we may not allow our women to do that. This goes for men too, we won't allow our men.

Umjakke, you misjudged me for sure when you mentioned that i think western women are whores. This is wrong.

regarding the bar issue, are you talking about law or family orders?

- There are arabic and Qatari ladies who may go to bars here same as do men.

- If you are talking about family orders, then be it known that men here are not allowed to go to bars by family orders. to make it short, we equally ban our men and women from going to the bar.

You cannot accept our classification and concept of freedom, what can I do.

"This equality, does not mean allowing women to go naked in the street where it does elsewhere."

And further you say:

"Allowing women to go to bars or dress short and other diseases harm the community.

At the same time, we have restrictions on men and we don't consider that oppression."

My point is that if you forbid 'your' women from going to bars and places of disrepute because they are, as you term them, "diseases", then why is it permissible for your men to go there?

How is that equality? Does that not also harm the community?

Sounds like a double standard to me...

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

curious - you've stated previously that you believe in "equal opportunities".

So how can you agree with a society that does not give women the same opportunities as men?

Yes, your standard: no freedom, ours: freedom.

Well..I am stunned that you reach this conclusion...

I don't in anyway think western women are whores or whatsoever...

I know they raise good families and the rest of it.

However, I am against freedom based on the way west define it.

We have a standard of our own. We don't have to follow your definition.

We maintain society by putting laws in place and no one is above the law.

Allowing women to go to bars or dress short and other diseases harm the community.

At the same time, we have restrictions on men and we don't consider that oppression.

I thank god who has enlightened me to base my thoughts on actual ground..I am sorry you got it wrong by saying that i think western women are whores...you keep missing the point over and over again..besides, i did not have logical explanations for some points i raised above.

They believe were all whores because that's the propaganda that they hear.

For the (possibly) 1% who get involved in the sex industry (That they are so worried about protecting their women from) they forget about the 30% who end up in sports, the 45% who end up as business owners, the 10% who end up as politicians, etc. So to prevent that 1% they end up preventing all the others as well.

women are equal to men, then why do they not have equal freedoms in your culture? Why can Qatari/Arab men go into the hotels and bars, but not the Qatari/Arab women? I am not advocating that that is where they should be, but if you're going to allow the men to do something, then why not the women too if they're all equal like you say they are?

And as much as you might think we do, all western women (or all non-Muslim/non-Arab women) don't go running through the street naked. This is actually illegal in most of our cultures. Surprise!

Why you think we're all whores who are just looking for a pole to dance around is beyond me. My mother and grandmother and I are all college educated women -- graduate degrees even! We live our lives morally. But we are free to choose how to live our lives, how to raise our families, where to go to school, where to work, etc. We don't have men telling us what we can and can't do.

I stopped asking a man for permission a long, long time ago -- about the time when I grew up, went to college, and moved out of my father's house. I don't think any adult woman needs any man's permission to make thoughtful choices about her life or her future. She may want a man's input, but that is different than his permission.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Adey, my appology for misunderstanding that. However, it is about that and about religious instructions too which have logical explanations.

that's your misinterpretation, rather I was alluding to a sense of patriarchal ownership.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Lously..

When I quoted the Qatari girl, that was on her own words...she explained that special means protected and cared for..

I am sorry but you don't understand our mentality and this is why it is hard to swallow for you.

I don't agree with you that Saudis are the only different people...you see..you fall short here because of cultural differences...I can differentiate any GCC country by a single look because of the close culture...

I still have a difficulty differentiating Canadian accent from an American (US) accent. In this case, i submit that they are better in understanding the difference. You have to allow for the culture difference.

Adey,

I am not responsible for your misinterpretation. When I say, our women, I don't mean they are our slaves. We believe, by religion, that women are equal to men. This equality, does not mean allowing women to go naked in the street where it does elsewhere. This is based on culture and way of life which you may have not adequately absorbed.

I used to work as a receptionist at a hotel before.. and trust me I have seen guests in all fashions.. and i can tell you that when i get a Qatari, or a Kuwaiti, or an Emarati family/individual .. they are very much different from the Saudis..

i do not mean to generalize.. as there are many of both who give the same image.. but the majority who portray an image or feeling of suddenly set free prisoners who want to do everything and anything no matter what the consequence is before they are thrown back into jail are the Saudi.. whether it is Women or Men.. the Opression in Saudi, while it effects the women mostly it also effects the men.. and a prison is a prison.. when you are told NO NO NO NO NO NO all the time.. and suddnely the Jailer looks away.. ur going to grab at that chance to do what is a NO NO before your jailer is back ...

WYSIWYG

"A Qatari girl called and said, my parents do not allow me to go to movies with my friends and not to visit them so often. At the end she said, I really feel special when I meet my cousins in wedding and family gatherings. She feels protected and cared of. See!"

Why would u see it as she feels protected and cared of.. why dont u see it as that she doesnt see them as often as she likes so that when there is an occasion and she finally gets to see them she feels special!!!!!

In Qatar, you see the women working everywhere... whether it is in a co-ed office or in a girls school.. you see them driving their cars, meeting up with girlfriends whether for lunch or dinner or just to enjoy a shisha.. or what it a movie they felt like checking out on this day..

Can u do this in Saudi?! I, a foreigner, and I felt the strictness and the NO NO.. so how would a saudi feel?!

If i was going to school and my uncle is driving the car, i had to sit in the back as I am only allowed to sit infront if my Father is driving or my brother.. otherwise its a no no.. but then.. my Uncle was living with me in the same house! Uncle as in blood related.. the brother of my father.

to go out to the mall, just like the Saudi women, i had to have the Abaya on along with the Hijab.. and if not, the Male accompanying us is taken to jail.. liek seriously?!

during the day on the weekends my father would be working on a thursday.. guess what.. we are stuck hom.. why? bcz since my father is at work we are unable to go out due to the fact that my mum cannot drive and we need a male to walk around with us.. and we are FOREIGNERS..

I have been to the house of many many saudis.. I grew up with many... and i could see how much it bothered them to be restricted.. binded by only what the men allow them to do..

Please note.. that many women were lucky to have "open - minded" husbands.. that allowed them to have their friends over or to go visit and so on.. but still.. all their social lives are restricted to the four walls of their homes..

Have you thought about discussing this with a Qatari girl? ask her.. btw the life you have here and the one you could have a saudi woman.. what would you choose?

While you prefer to follow in the example of Saudi, I am sure they would tell you that Saudi should follow in Qatar's example..

WYSIWYG

I would say your problem Curious is that not only do you not see, but you don't want to.

Then again, you don't have to because you aren't a woman, you have your freedoms and you have NO idea what it's like not to have them. All you think about is what's best for your possessions.

Exactly Adey.

and that is the problem is that you don't see Gypsy

says it all in two simple words.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Of course she feels special when she see's her cousins at weddings and family gatherings, probably feels the same as anyone in prison does when they're allowed to see someone from the outside world.

Frankly I don't see how she sounds like she feels protected and cared for.

Lously, You are right on what you said on its own right.

However, we have a generlisation problem too.

I was listening to SoutAlkhaleej once where they had a program on this very issue.

A Qatari girl called and said, my parents do not allow me to go to movies with my friends and not to visit them so often. At the end she said, I really feel special when I meet my cousins in wedding and family gatherings. She feels protected and cared of. See!

I don't think any western would understand this.

I agree that women should be educated and made aware.

We are conservative and educating too. Our women understand the rationale and logic and this is what makes it a good combination.

You are getting the wrong picture because you think we force them as the example you mentioned about doctor and photography..This is a good example applied to a wrong case which does not happen..There are exceptions for every rule though but still exceptions.

Unfortunately Curious you have yet to produce any facts. You speak from YOUR opinion as a Qatari MALE,who wants his wife/sisters/mother to live in this manner and probably doesn't care if they don't like it because he's been convinced by some imam or another the women should be "protected", and you've probably never spoke to ONE Saudi woman much less several.

And then you accuse me of being blinded by propaganda.

Do I think EVERY women in Saudi dislikes the way things are, no I don't, I'm sure some women love it, however just because they want to live that way doesn't mean they should force it on every woman.

Gypsy..

Certainly. This is a time where right is not known from wrong especially for victims of porpaganda.

You will see people who are shocked by facts because they have never been exposed to it before, and because they have been decieved. They deny it at the beginning, but overtime, if they are lucky, can get it.

Thank you for the professional and respectful debate!

I lived in Saudi for 15 yrs, I grew up there, my father was there for 30 years... Yes NOW there is some changes.. Yes NOW there is a bit more "freedom".. a studied one at that.. where u call it freedom but it is not...

yeah so now we can see a group of girls walking in the mall together.. enjoying a shopping spree without having to have a male accompany them.. but nevertheless.. allow me to say when one speaks of freedome they are not merely speaking of it so that a woman can go have pre-maritel sex and forget all what she had been taught as tradtion..

Freedom of Choice teaches responsibility mroe effectively than oppression... it is a Known fact that what is not allowed is coveted in arabic as you are qatari you would understand ( Il mamnou3 marghoub) then when they go and break the rules and the traditions they are punished beyond comprehension.. what for?! if they are provided with the knowledge they need and then given the freedom to make their choices dont you think their choices and actions will be much more responsible and better than if it was made for them and they were foced in to it?!

Its like when you want to major in photography while ur parents want you to be a Doctor.. a Doctor is more prestigious.. a title, money.. good will.. what is a photography?

Which do u think you would excel in?! one where you are forced into or the one where you had been given the freedom to choose? does the fact that you made the choice demean ur family?!

WYSIWYG

Sigh. Can anybody say "Stolkholm Syndrome?"

Gypsy..

You are getting the worng picture as a result of the poor information and knowledge you have about such a society...

You are judging on single acts..I agree there are complains and there are bad conditions..but it is not the majority and is over magnified..

You are now deflecting from the main point...quoting the beat up...while failing to demonstrate its connection to allowing women to drive..

I think one of the problems also, is that you watch too many movies, I Robot and alike, filled with wrong impressions and images on almost every aspect of certain countries.

Opression is opression is opression Curious. And I'm not sure of your point, I know quite a few Saudi women and I know quite a few Saudi men who actively complain about the governments opression on their sisters and mothers. Judging from the statistics and opinions and the requests for change coming from Saudi itself I would say you are the one generalizing by saying that the women are happy there.

As for Thailand, yes it is individuals, just like it's individuals that are keeping the women opressed.

And yes, domestic abuse happens everywhere, but at least in the West we have shelters and laws to protect us, things Saudi women don't have.

Saudi reminds me of I Robot, in order to "protect" the humans the robots put them to sleep and lock them in cages so they can't hurt themselves, which is what Saudi is doing to their women. Funny how easily protection becomes prison.

Gypsy, How many Saudi women do you know? few i am sure.

People who go to Thailand are individuals.

Why can not you get it that you may not genelise!!

Women who are prioritised over men in Saudi was about budget allocation in making educational projects and so. It is not as you understood.

What does allowing women drive have have to do with women being beaten? this is a different issue.

Beating happens in east, west, north and south.

"please keep your opinion to yourself"

Quick Qatari, close down QL, CBD now appears to be in charge!

Is this an example of "We, here and in Saudi, respect our women"

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

I read that genesis, it's a shame, and if its that bad here, where women have a bit more freedom, then what is it like in Saudi?

few problems!!!that can't be termed as oppression!

According to the field study conducted by Qatar university professor-Dr. Khalthm Al Ghanim more than a third of Qatari women are subjected to beatings and psychological abuse

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=ArticleA_C&cid=1195032635899&pagename=Zone-Arabic-AdamEve%2FAEALayout

Denying that will not make it go away you know ;)

You go to Thailand to watch and participate in these immoral acts that you "don't want" in your own country. There you watch women whom you don't care or don't believe should be "protected" and participate in the world sex trade.

It's hypocrisy at its worse.

I don't just quote BBC I'm quoting Saudi women I know. And can you please quote the source for women having priority over men in educational jobs? I find that strange as the colleges are segregated so men wouldn't be allowed to teach women and vice versa.

Gypsy..Going to Thailand is an individual act which has nothing to do with how woman are treated.

I agree there are few problems with women, but it can not be termed as opression! This is what I called propaganda magnification. In which case, men suffer similar problems.

Do you know that there are men in Saudi who are complaining that women have priority over them in the educational jobs?

You are not looking at the issue with your eyes. You are quoting BBC and some other directed media, no matter how much you hear them talk about objectivity.

In my original post, i have not indicated that we are better than Saudis!In fact, i believe that very little was improved over the years.Studies conducted by QU still shows high percentage of oppression against women.This was discussed many times in Ql, just do a search

Having lived and worked in Saudi prior to coming here, I must admit that i have found Qatar to be a lot more open and the locals well educated.

Having said that, Saudi Arabia has a much greater population and a more diverse population. I have seen change occur in the past five years, but it will take time.

We cannot and should not enforce or values , customs on the society in the Gulf , nor accept change to occur at the same rate as in the West.

Also Curious respecting and protecting women does not extend to taking away her every freedom because then it becomes opression, abuse and slavery.

If the price of my being able to drive myself to the office and run my own business is that some woman will choose to strip down to their knickers in front of men, well, as much as I wouldnt' choose to strip or to watch it, I'm all for it.

So your culture and religion is to travel to Thailand to see strip shows?

Alexa, Do you know how many women in Saudi? How could you justify saying that most of the ladies don't have a choice when you met only so few?!

ummjake, take it easy, you have all the time in world.

Should they be allowed to go clubbing and do some naked shows? Personally, I think if that's what they want to do as individuals, more power to them. {-- please keep your opinion to yourself. Do you think allowing women to go to striptease shows for money is a good indicator of society and respect for women? This is immoral act which no one wants around here. You need to understand our culture and religion before you attack those issues.

This is why you don't understand whi it is the people'e choice. There exceptions ofcourse which is not the majority for certain.

We, here and in Saudi, respect our women, love our and defend her with blood.

You just don’t understand our way of living.

Where are porn movies made? where are striptease shows made? they are made in societies which is believed to respect women!

I know it's wiki but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

and here you go: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7222869.stm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/23/60minutes/main682565.shtml

and it being made illegal for you to do so, CBD.

Do you understand the difference?

THAT is what Gypsy and I are both pointing out.

Should they be allowed to go clubbing and do some naked shows? Personally, I think if that's what they want to do as individuals, more power to them.

I seriously doubt most women here would ever choose that -- and if you think that they would choose to do those things then I think this culture has a much more serious problem.

If you can't trust 50% of the population to make thoughful, informed choices about their own lives, then it's as if you're labelling them stupid and morally bankrupt and treating them like imbeciles.

Is that what you think the women here are like?

I certainly have a lot more respect for their ability to make good decisions about such things...

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

LOL. Sure, the women don't want to work, and all those 12 year old girls forced to marry 60 year old men really really want to. :P

Yes Curious if they want to go clubbing and do some naked shows they should be free to do so. Women should be free, like men, to do what they want.

Gypsy..

most of the information you quoted are false..There is a big number of women, who at thier choice, do not want to work with men, this goes to Qatar as well...

they have thier choice to choose thier partner..There are many girls who refuse certain men and perfectly allowed to do so..there are exceptions ofcourse..

Women take 1/6 percent of the husband's legacy should he die despite what his brother thinks..by law...

The way saudi treats women is not a disrespect. Should they be allowed to go clubbing and do some naked shows?

Surely you lack knowledge of this part of the world and do not speak for all women.

but there is simply no comparison in terms of women's rights. Are there female business owners in KSA? Of course there are. Do you think they suffer and their business suffers because they have to skirt around antiquated rules that say that females can't drive, can't meet with unrelated men, can't travel unaccompanied, need a male's permission to do something (and often times this male is her prepubescent brother)?

Without a doubt.

Don't delude yourself into thinking the women genuinely embrace the system over there. What other choice to they have, really? You either go crazy trying to change things or you make the best of your lot in life and get about the business of living.

You couldn't pay me enough to swap places with a Saudi woman. It'd be like living in a gilded cage. Why anyone would think THAT is worthy of being lauded is beyond me...

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

The Saudi system in not an obstacle? Are you kidding? Women can't work in the same environment as men (which pretty much effectively prevents them from working), they aren't allowed to drive, they can't go out without being accompanied by their husband or male family member, they have very little choice is who they marry, should there husband divorce them he gets full custody of the children and can prevent her from ever seeing him. Should he die and have no male children, his money goes to his brother who then decides if she can or cannot have it (or his son, if he has one).

Women over their "embrace" the system because they have no choice not too.

And yes, the way a society treats its women is probably the BIGGEST indicator of a better society.

Yes things are getting better in Saudi now.. Now unaccompanied women can stay in Hotels alone...

-----------------

HE WHO DARES WINS

Gypsy..

Saudi is by far more advanced than Qatar in so many ways and there is no comparison..

I am Qatari and wish my country scores number 1 in everything but I am realistic.

You definitely do not know Saudi.

Don't say freedom of people but say freedom of women. This is a single measure which is not really a good indicator of a better society. Also you need to know that women in Saudi can travel and do many things. The only difference between Saudi and Qatar is that Saudi requests ladies to have permission of thier families and sometimes should be accompanied. To Judge this, assuming you are Canadian, you need to understand the Arabic culture further.

There are ladies in Saudi who achieved many big things. The Saudi system was not an obstacle. In fact it is something that people embrace over thier.

Additionally, Do you think segregated schools are worse than mixed schools? if your answer is yes, perhaps you need to check statistics about discrimination cases in mixed systems.

Try to have indicative measures please.

Well for one thing Qatar provides much more freedom for its people, especially for women. THere's almost no comparison.

Why do you think you are better than saudi?

In what areas are you better than Saudi?

Saudi has more advanced Education and has achieved so many things...

Compare the infrastructure, sport, education, Economy..

What change are you talking about?!!

I think that really depends family to family. There are great differences betweeen families. But in general things for women have changed like women driving and women in the workforce. In Saudi there is an enforced dress code for women, but in Qatar there is not. Qatarias are encouraged in education and to enter the workplace and have a career.

There are still some things I would like to see change in my country for women but I do feel we are poles apart from Saudi in that respect.

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I also think that 97 was a turning point in Qatar History. I have big hope/faith on HH determination for change. Yet, has the society changed?

I can only speak for myself and those I know. I was born around the same time as the documentary. My parents have raised me and my siblings to be independent and to make our own decisions. Education is hugely important in my family as is making a difference in the world. I am free to do as I wish. I cannot think of any restrictions placed upon me.

Although many may live a different life more akin to the documentary there are many who live a life such as myself.

I think our ruling family are vastly different from the Saudi ruling family. Our leaders promote education, independence, contribution and critical thinking.

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