Sieze of Passport+denial of exit =Slavery

I am really amazed by the response of people, but some people deviate from topic (discussing maid and loans..)

In every past of world (except gulf) people has freedom (easy) to leave the country than enter. But here in Qatar it seems opposite. You are lured by false promises (most of labours and maid) and promise for better future (so you pay heavy back home... with it lots of underground business operates, people are involved and money is made...) on cost of human life (promoting slavery) surely Qatar government play a major role is increasing such slavery rather than decreasing it (because they are earning money as well).... and once people arrive here, their dream shatters, they have already taken heavy loan at home... their passport size and they are denied of exit (as someone pointed out... why I give EXIT.. because I paid that much, this much.. my advice to you- ask Qatar governmnet, ask immigration.. ask travel agent... ask maid agent... not that poor maid, she has also paid similar amount back home for this job)

So there is big mafia is involved in this game !!!!

What we need is to educate people, let the people know the reality, who dont know and try to prevent rather than find cure- cure is in Qatar government hand !

I agree and confirm with Keith Brown that she came here on that understanding and had the intention to do extra work to supplement her salary , then that would be wrong and illegal.

She may have well been told or given to understand in her home country that she can do that. She is in continuous contact of her compatriot, who are guiding her someways. She is a first timer here and just be really unhappy for whatsoever reasons.

God save us from such sponsorship policies; which will make our own life difficult in managing them.

Thanks Once again

Ex-expat, did you not have babysitters when you were a kid? Do you not go to restaurants that have wait staff? The service industries are not instrinsically evil. I'm not saying there aren't abuses but I sure started out my professional life as a waitress and babysitter during summers. That's how I earned money for college.

Mandi

VB did say that she wanted to work several places to make more money, which is illegal.

IF she came here on the understanding that she was working for a given salary for one sponsor then that agreement is it .

However , if she came here on that understanding and had the intention to do extra work to supplement her salary , then that would be wrong.She may have well been told or given to understand in her home country that she can do that.

Then again , she may be a first timer here or whatever and just be really unhappy.

AS for domestic helpers , well I have my own views on that subject.

We all will, but why are you disgusted, what's so wrong?

Having people working at your home?

I don't SEEM disgusted, I AM disgusted.

Obviously you have no conception of human decency whatsoever, and you will answer to your God one day.

"It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her for it." W. C. Fields.

ex-expat, It's a very practical attitude, yet you seem disgusted.

You seem not to know what work means.

Work doesn't mean slavery and de-humanization, it's a person working for money. Just because you're not used to having people work for you at home doesn't mean it's disgusting.

I'm very truthful, but it seems many expats (or ex-expats) can't imagine having house-workers.

It's a simple exchange: you give them money, they give you back time, just like a washing machine as YOU said.

It just happens that she's human.

We all have 24h/day, if you sleep for 8, and work for another 8, all you have left is 8 hours.

If somebody can wash your dishes,do your laundry, and clean your floors, maybe even watch your kids and cook while you're at work, then it's worth every penny.

On the other side, she found a job, and earns money.

p.s. I like to debate, and you're just forcing these words on me.

duplicate

Er, did you ever think of bringing up your kids yourself?

Or sharing the housework amongst your family? Or cooking for yourselves?

It seems that you prefer to bring in a slave to do all these jobs and to de-humanise her at the same time.

It's a truly disgusting attitude and I've nothing more to say.

"It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her for it." W. C. Fields.

Sorry, I'm not going to make any further comment.

You guys are talking about a human being as if she is a washing machine or something.

BTW who is she actually working for? Is it for Victor Bhatt or is it for you Ahmoud?

Come on, be truthful guys.

"It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her for it." W. C. Fields.

Ex, if you read the post it was about money for her.... She was willing to work for him if her let her work other places as well. I dont think this is acceptable. She knew how much she was going to get before she came, and came anyway knowing she would be dissatisfied?

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

Ahmoud. I understand, but money should not be the main issue here.

If the maid is not happy it will bring unhappiness into the house, she will not be able to do what is expected of her because she is unhappy.

What is QR 7,000 compared to the well being and happiness of a family?

Contracts are contracts, but in such a case she must be allowed (and assisted) to go home.

"It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her for it." W. C. Fields.

Ex, sometimes that is easier said than done. We spent QR 7,000 to bring our maid, and I was working so I really needed her. If she told me she wanted more money after she signed her contract, and I spent a small fortune to bring her I am not so sure I would let it go so easily.

I work, and am expected to fulfill the obligations of my contract. If he is holding her just for shits and giggles that is something else altogether.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

"It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her for it." W. C. Fields.

Victor. Tell your friend to let her go now.

This a human being you are dealing with, not a kitchen appliance!

Tell him to be a gentleman and to arrange her exit properly and nicely.

He should tell her that he is sorry that things did not work out for her, and he should wish her well for the future.

"It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her for it." W. C. Fields.

Victor, did he bring her through an agency? If so he can return her to the agency and get another maid if they do not see eye to eye.

I do believe maids contracts are 2 years so he could bind her to that.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

happened with one of my friend. Don't jump on me please.

I am quite sure he will not allow her to go before she will complete one year. However He is very nice Gentleman but stingy. He has tried to convince her that if she will go at this point of time (just 2 months), she would be banned for 2 years and will not get a chance to work in Gulf in future. Actually she wanted to serve for more money at several places at the same time, which is illegal.

Give comments, to let me suggest him guys!

One option - To release her and should not hold her as ocmmodity.

AA. That may be so, but many labourers here do not see their passports from the time they arrive until the time they leave, and even if they did have them they cannot leave until they get their sponsors approval of their exit permit.

As for the banks, perhaps they have been lulled into a false sense of security, knowing that any loans granted are supposedly guaranteed by the loanee's sponsor!

"It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her for it." W. C. Fields.

Butcherboy. That's interesting, but Qatar is an independant state, not a member of the UAE.

It's true that some employers in Qatar retain the passports of their employees, but even if you have possession of your own passport in Qatar, you cannot leave unless your employer (sponsor) approves your exit permit.

If you hold a 'Residents Permit' in the UAE and you are in possession of your own passport, you can leave any time you want to, that is the difference.

"It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her for it." W. C. Fields.

"The practice of retaining passports in the UAE is illegal in accordance with court rulings," Aref Mirza, director of the legal department at the Ministry of Labour, told Gulf News.

Mirza added that a worker, whose employer withholds his passport and refuses to return it, can quit without a notice period and demand a compensation for dismissal.

"Retaining workers' passports amounts to forcible work in violation of the International Labour Organisation's (ILO) Convention on the Abolition of Forced Labour, to which the UAE is a signatory."

Bleu, you need to read my post properly - I said 'exit' visas (i.e. to leave) not to "get in". Notwithstanding this, what 'actual text' are you talking about?

bleu. I think the point that 'Butcherboy' was making is that exit permits or NOC's are not required for foreign nationals who work in EEC countries.

"It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her for it." W. C. Fields.

...Or if you took her from an agency you should have a 3 month 'trial' period to see if you guys are right for each other. If not you send her back to the agency, they should be able to find placement for her and you get a new maid. Your loss will be nothing.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

Victor,

It's simple, the poor thing, what do you want to do? pimp her???

Get an rp cancellation, buy a ticket, take her to the airport, issue the exit permit, and take her out, taking the pink paper to get a new visa instead of hers.

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

VB can we take her over if she is not happy... I am looking for a maid..may be we can negotiate some of the cost that you have incured to bring her over.. Only thing is that she should be able to speak some English..

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HE WHO DARES WINS

Victor Bhatt. If your maid is not happy in her work there is really no point in keeping her is there?

You paid the money and you took your chance, of course you must let her go if she doesn't want to be there.

Do you think that people are a commodity which you can purchase and use like some kind of domestic appliance?

Give her back her passport and get her an exit visa, and take your financial loss like a man.

"It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her for it." W. C. Fields.

Butcherboy, so you're saying that all "civilised" countries do not restrict entry in any way or form: If you're human you can get in, no need for a visa.

I really hate it when people use legal terms like "fundamental human right" without referring to the actual text, especially when it doesn't apply to the issue.

I spent thousands of riyals to bring a Maid to Qatar....after 2 months, she complaints that She wanted to go back.....Will you allow her EXIT permit and Won't you hold the passport as security?

Many International org in Qatar don't hold passports and even provide Exit permit to their employees for a year at once.

So this law is circumstantial and not obligatory in all cases

Butcherboy. Yes that's about the size of it, well said.

"It was a woman who drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her for it." W. C. Fields.

In a civilised World the free movement of human beings ought to be a fundamental human right - not something to be restricted (and abused) by governments and companies. Exit visas and withholding passports are as clear a violation of this principle as you are likley to get. It's simply wrong and there's no genuine justification for it at all. All the nonsense about people skipping the country not paying loans is just that - nonsense. For example, when a bank lends money they take a risk - it's the same anywhere in the civilised World. The difference is in Qatar/GCC the Government/Companies want to try and limit that risk by restricting (and abusing) a human beings right to move freely. It's a practice that belongs in the Dark Ages.

I dont agree with the NOC policy as it stands, but I will say that this is similar to a "no competition" clause in a majority of international contracts, with some of these clauses even being for a period of 5 years or more.

If you sign a contract saying you will not work in the Gulf, or Qatar, with a competitor for 5 years after your contract, it is the same only we are dumb enough to sign our consent on this before we come :)

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

UKeng..

The only difference with ancient slavery system with the current one is, guys coming here with their own will and rest all are d same. Thats why we call it modern slavery system.

As arien pointed out, atleast they should give NOC for those who are terminated otherwise how can they settle their liabilities.

Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated"

....G.B. Shaw

Agreed again UK, and also when these labours are here and their sponsor stops paying wages, and they live like animals to survive this is bordering on slavery as well. These guys dont have a choice because they are making nothing, cant afford to even try and run away and are completely dependant on their sponsor. I guess the choice to come here was theirs but I dont think anyone could know beforehand what they are getting into. Before I get the 'research it on the net' comment, I dont think many of these guys are internet savvy, heck I wouldnt imagine they even have PC's back home.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

Amoud, Mandi,thanks guys

Yes I think it is violation of Human rights which should be the topic. How ever bondage labour and human trafficking for what ever reason is more closer to slavery I think..

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HE WHO DARES WINS

I know Amoud ,and we are seeing similar in the Middle East. Luckily I never bought into the dream.

However, at least in Dubai the individual could get another job and in most cases without a ban being automatically imposed .

I agree with you UK, although I do not agree with the local practise here. I think the UN label of "slavery" is a bit dramatic and is used in an attempt to draw massive attention to the issue. I would love to see the day when this is actually recognised and dealt with in a manner that is fair to both parties with equal protection for both but there are a lot of other issues in Qatar which must first be dealt with before this can happen.

Qatar is heading in the right direction, and there has been a major overhaul in regulations in the past few years.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

Agreed, UkEng. Every time someone exaggerates an issue out of proportion to the problem they lose credibility. Let's call them Human Rights violations so that we can appropriately address and rectify these abuses. Calling it slavery is unhelpful hyperbole.

Mandi

I again have to disagree with the word Slavery here.. These guys came here with their own will.. Just because some companies are not following the rules does not mean that it is slavery.. it is more like an illegal practice that the authorities here should try to elliminate..

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HE WHO DARES WINS

Keith the banks here are following in the footsteps of all the private mortgage lenders in the US. See what happened? As Mandi stated, mortgages were approved for just about everyone, then they couldnt pay back and now there are middle class families loosing everything and living out of their cars. Sad....

There is no issuance of loans these days from the banks, and they have also halted any mortgages. Perhaps they are wising up?

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

In Dubai it used to be the rule that if you wanted a loan you could basically only borrow as much as your gratuity was worth , even then you had to get approval for the loan from your employer . When the banks made it easier for people to take loans the problems started , .

Jack, charging employees for residence permits is a completely different issue, and highly illegal whereas exit permit issuance is generally within the law (although not always ethical). _____________________________________________________

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

Amoud If exit permit was to protect the assets of the Sponsor..then how come people are able to run away without paying the debt.

Sponsorship & Exit permits are misued by people creating fictious companies ...then selling visas off as "Private Visas".

These "Sponsor " even charge their "employee" an amount per month. Also they charge the "employee" for every document they issue.

So in in such cases "employees" are paying their "sponsors" rather than the other way around.

Arien, you can look at any of the other threads to know the reason, I'm not typing or copying it here.

We are finding out worldwide that neither banks nor borrowers are very responsible when it comes to loans. My step-sister has a mortgage payment in the US for more than her take home salary! She may lose the house. So who was the irresponsible party? And yes, she can change jobs but her salary will remain essentially the same since her profession doesn't change. It's not just a Gulf problem anymore.

Mandi

If it's only for the sake of the "sponsors" being safe from credit fraud, then why aren't the banks told not to lend money to expats? The banks make business from loans. The banks give it to anybody. The sponsors are liable and confine the expats. Confine the banks. Don't let them give loans for a longer repay period than the contracts of the expats. You are still only protecting the banks.

Atleast - They should amend it in such a way that the sponsor should give NOC when its Termination.

Now its like '' we dont need your service, and we dont want your to serve to anyone else in qatar too'' so stupid

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Listen to Many..Speak to a few.

MD, I did not say that the aponsorship law was for banks, I said it was for the protection of the person liable IF someone steps out on their debts. I mentioned the whole lending system being flawed which results in the sponsorship law.

Everyone is more than welcome to come and go as they please, but with the banks lending massive amounts of money to non-citizens (banks make their money any way they can) and in turn sponsors being left with debts would it not make more sense to control lending to non-citizens to help alleviate the sponsorship problem?

As was posted in another thread, slavery is a plight in where you have no choice. We have choices in this instance MD.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

So do you think the sponsorship law is for the protection of the banks, amoud? Then it is even worse than I thought. Banks make their business at their own risk. Or is it the state who owns the banks? Then I'd understand that the state wants to protect its own property. It's still slavery. Choosing a profession and the place of work as long as you like it and changing it when you don't like it is a basic human right!! Denied in the Gulf!

Canada has sponsorship for immigration purposes. If I sponsor someone who runs out on their debt I am held accountable. The same thing applies here, if I skip out, my sponser is liable, and from what I have witnessed it is fairly common. The whole lending system here is flawed to be honest, big loans to people on limited term contracts.

If your contract is 2 years, how do banks lend massive amounts of money with repayment terms up to 10 years? Also I think borrowers are not doing their share and being responsible financially.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

"Sponsorship" is modern slavery according to the wording of the United Nations. However, the question is, why all these democracy loving countries like the US and EU still have ties with these "Slave" nations. If they would mean what they preach they would not have diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia or Qatar. You see, they fool you, too.

Agree, Alexa. the NOC is the single greatest block to fair and competitive job market. out of the failure of employees to secure a good job because of the NOC thing, they are constrain to stay in their current job with low salary and are struggling to meet even the basic needs let alone loan payment.

those who deliberately want to skip and those who have no option but to go. When someone wants to get a loan, it has a purpose. Most is out of necessity or for a legitimate purpose. So the planning is there on the length the loan will be paid.

But for unlucky ones who are terminated (or contract not renewed), that planning is a failure. So the person is stuck here, in the mercy of the sponsor and no where to go. How can one find another job if not given a chance? How will he repay the loans?

The solution is not to hold the passport and be strict with exit permit. The solution is never allowed anybody to make a loan (at least for long term) but for short terms just like a "salary" loan or a short term loan which will guarantee payment.

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

You are right Mandi, not only that, skipping out on civil cases and sometimes when they are calculating end of service the employee has taken company loans etc and the employee actually owes the employer money.

That said, I think that sponsors do indeed abuse this right and often the only objection to issuing an exit permit is that the sponsor is just a jack.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

I am certainly uncomfortable with the idea of exit permits in principle. However when I look at the number of people (even on QL) who have recommended skipping the country without paying one's debts I understand the need for them.

Mandi

I do believe it is illegal to hold someones passport, you can complain to the police but you will cause an uproar with your sponsor.

I have never had anyone hold my passport, and I have worked for both private and government companies.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"