Suck it up yal rabe3

only if you have a problem with your nose then yes, free plastic surgery come on and for big surgerys they accept only if it was really really neccessary to have one. AND IF YOU KNOW SOME THINGS ABOUT QATAR KEEP IT INSIDE UNLESS ITS GOOD TO SAY. DONT TALK ABOUT OTHER PEOPLES TALK ABOUT YOUR SELF ONLY. IDOUBT YOU ARE REAL QATARI IF YOU ARE ONE (WHAT A SHAME!). Qatar gives you EVERYTHING and you keep making and showing bad about Qatar even though you are using this free utilities and good salary go and try living some where else to experience the real life outside.

This is becoming a case of TL:DR ...

You raise a lot of good points Nic, I agree with the majority of what you have said, and as you had stated I had misinterpreted your post as being directed at Qataris as whole as opposed to the specific issues that arise in respect to HS dropouts, and on that subject I entirely am in agreement.

As for the article I am fully aware that it reflects the writer's opinion, but that being said,a paper with reputation of NYT would have a great impact on the reader's own opinions if they aren't aware of what goes in reality in Qatar, such articles would be used as a basis to formulate an impression of what life is like in the region. On numerous occasions when I have been abroad speaking to those who have heard/read of Qatar they always talk to me about how progressive the place is, and how it's great that we have freedom of speech etc. All this goes back to what you were saying about the 'rosy painting', it was the foreign media's reporting of what goes in Qatar that gave these people these impressions. My issue is with when perhaps in the future when say for eg a Qatari does shed light on the issues that are swept under the rug here, those who depend on articles like the NYT one will perhaps reach the conclusion that maybe just like in the article, this is just some rich guy who is making a fuss over nothing, his country is flawless, in effect complementing the facade of perfect little Qatar.

What you referred to about Qatar not being used to critical criticism is something I can agree with you on, and yes there are a lot of locals who would be overly sensitive towards any form of criticism, be it constructive or just pure, unadulterated derision. On the other hand, there are those such as myself and many others, who do welcome intense scrutiny on the real workings of the Gulf, for eg there was this article I had read by the BBC I believe, and it's main focus was on Dubai's superficiality, and how it manages to maintain this image of a liberal international playground while the reality of the situation there can be quite bleak, from the conditions of those who built the city, to those who have been oppressed by an unchecked police state. If such an analysis was made towards Qatar then yes, I would be all for it. In no way I am suggesting that the NYT article should be censored or anything of the sort, all I am saying is that I find the harm it can do goes beyond simply being a non-influential opinion piece, and if more articles were to come out with such content, all it would do is further distort what goes on in practice.

I understand it is not their duty to shed light on issues that gets no coverage locally, nor are they obliged to be particularly objective, and that they are entitled to their opinions, it is just that the some of us who need to exercise discretion before expressing our opinions feel kind of 'betrayed' so to speak, as we would expect a writer of the NYT to be capable of critical reasoning, and to shed light on some real issues facing qatar, as opposed to what was contained in the article, I would expect such a superficial analysis from somewhere like FOX for example, but not the NYT. I don't perceive the article to be one that is bashing qatar, quite the contrary, it is making Qatar appear to be a nation where everything is perfect that the citizens are forced to find trivial issues to complain about.

My 'China' example was based on a little documentary I watched where they covered the dilemma facing villagers in trying to strike a balance between their need for foreign money, and their fear of their culture/values being compromised by those coming in with the money. I can't confirm it's veracity as I have never been to China, and haven't read much on the subject, so I'll take your word for it. That being said, I do intend to visit there, so should something happen to me in the remote villages I will hold you personally responsible for any losses I might incur.:P

Yes I agree that decades would not be enough to change the cultural/traditional practices of the region, not even a century in my opinion, however this is more tied with the influence of certain different interpretations of religious texts which would be too large of a subject to cover here.

In Qatar the scholarship programs to send students abroad are usually tied in with conditions that require you to work certain government departments for the number of years you spent abroad, this is harmful to those who come back and end up working 3-4 years doing nothing that requires them to apply what they spent 3-4 years learning! When they do want to go abroad to work they would have forgotten most of what they had learned, and additionally they have no relevant work experience for the 3 or 4 years they spent in the office. And if they want to go to these top institutions on their own expense, it is particularly costly as citizens of the countries where these universities are based usually complain of the costs of tuition fees, which are 1/2 and some times even a 1/3 of what we would have to pay as international students! Not to mention other costs such as traveling arrangements and whatnot. A lot of my friends are entertaining the idea of working abroad, as you had said they realized that Qatar is not a place one should come to to learn, but rather to teach. The only thing working against them is their concerns of their lack of proper experience in their respective fields because of the issues I mentioned above.

As you have said it is difficult to adequately cover the points we wish to discuss on a forum like this, but generally I can say that a lot of what you have said reflects my own views on the situation. I just feel strongly about this issue as there are on the one hand a lot of Qataris who close their eyes and pretend that there is nothing wrong with the country, and then there are those like the OP who portray the citizens as a spoiled population being showered with endless opportunities, I would go as far as saying that on balance, those who are lazy would be able to see the situation as one where they are being spoiled, rewarded for not doing much, yet those who do have ambition on the other hand, are fairly quick to realize that the current setup just does not favor them.

(cont'd)

Now, let’s go back to our discussion. After reading the article and taking into account what I just said about it, I chose to comment on the posture of young male Qataris at work, because, first I care and then I think that this is one of the main problems that would undermine Qatar’s future as an independent competitive nation.

I have been here for a number of years and I deal with a lot of Qatari public and semi public organizations and I often see young Qataris at their desks. I will generalize for practical reasons, but in no means I am referring to 100% of the cases. I do hope that there are many exceptions to the problem that I am describing here. The way these young Qataris are at work is a great concern and it will have a negative impact on Qatar’s future. What I criticize and I express here, because there is no other way that a expat can contribute to improve issues like this one, is the fact that social problems like this one, are not acknowledged, debated and treated by the government. It is painful to realize how damaging this is for the nation’s future, if not treated adequately with transparency.

Now this is only the tip of the iceberg, it’s a consequence of what Qatar came to be in such a short time, the root cause is what I called in my previous comments, the impact of the petrodollars in such young nations.

All the issues you approached in your previous comments are interlinked to the same root-cause: a society that is unable to catch up with that the rapid influx of wealth; a country that grew and is still growing well beyond its population’s capacity. All this, together with the political system, leaves the Qataris out of control of their own country.

The lack of quality medical care; the lack of motivation of young male Qataris (females are remarkable and generally in a better position as they have a motivator factor: to free themselves from the traditional roles culturally imposed on them); the lack of a solid career perspective for overseas educated students; the lack of expats’ commitment and devotion (when compared to expats elsewhere, where they can be integrated and eventually become full part of the receiving society); the lack of good services (as nobody really cares but some disguise it well for fear and survival reasons); the inability to select the right candidates, etc, etc… are issues that can be easily observed, after spending some time in the country. The most frustrating is to realize that there is no mechanism to feed and contribute for improvement, not even for a normal Qatari citizen, let alone the expats.

Articles like the NYT, serve to spread awareness. We shouldn’t see it as bashing, but as an opportunity to bring to the attention of those in power, that the rosy pictures cannot cover the reality forever and something needs to be done. Acknowledging the problem is the beginning of the solution.

I now that its not one article, that would make things change, particularly in a society like Qatar with its particular culture. But I also feel that those who can see the problems should not pretend that they don’t exist, just to please the Status Quo. By doing so, we are not helping we are just taking advantage of a convenient situation.

Just a last word to clarify your misunderstandings:

I was not comparing Qatar with Hong Kong or Tokyo. That is obviously non sense. I mentioned those places to demonstrate to you that local cultures do have a great say on how expats integrate and feel part of the receiving societies. No way, not even your American friend’s idea, will you be able to change in a few decades the Qatari culture and the way it generally chooses to stay away from foreigners. It’s just a cultural feature and it will probably remain like this for a long time. The main reason is Qatari and Gulf cultures have a very particular paradigm. They don’t share many of the basic social features that most of the western and far eastern cultures do. I won’t further develop this topic here as it would be another great vast discussion. Just to clarify that what I meant was that the local culture does restrict intercultural exchanges.

The example that you mentioned wasn’t a good one. I have been in remote Chinese villages, where they have never seen a western in person nor they spoke any western language and I had incredible cultural experiences, being invited by locals to stay at their places, having the entire villages gathering at night around camp fires to welcome us.

And finally, an advice for your friends and for you (if it applies to you): For the reasons I stated above, Qatar is no professional school. A person with a degree from international top universities, should try to begin their careers in a more established and competitive economies. If they do so and being Qataris, they can come back equipped to rule the country, otherwise they are condemned to face what you described.

No one comes to Qatar to learn, all should come here to teach!

kbaisi,

Thank you for sharing your views.

It is quite a challenge to maintain an objective discussion in forums like this one, particularly when we are discussing broad subjects like the ones you referred too in your comments and somehow, some were selectively touched in a particular approach, in the NYT article.

It’s important not to forget that we all come from different backgrounds, with different life experience, cultures and paradigms which, makes us see the same reality in different ways.

As I have a genuine interest on these topics, I will take the time to reply to your comment and clarify a few points, that I assume you haven’t captured the way I intended to express them.

First of all, as you will realize if you read all my previous comments, initially I had the intention to restrict my input solely to the impact of the current Qatari status Quo, on the Qatari youth, particularly on the young males, who mostly (but not only) dropped out of school and were placed in a public sector’s job (thus my first comment “The curse of wealth!“), whilst you have approached a vast range of issues related to the socio-economic fabric of Qatar, such as: the Qatari political system; the international relations between Qatar and other countries (Big Players in the international scene); the general attitude of expats in Qatar; the situation of less privileged Qataris; the expectations and outcome of over-seas educated Qataris in the Qatari job market; the inter cultural relations between Qataris and expats, etc…

As you’ll agree with me, each one of those issues, although they are important to understand the Qatari social fabric, they are too vast to discuss in a unique forum like this one.

Before commenting on your last post (Fri, 28/05/2010 - 12:35am), I would like to go back to the article and tell you what I think.

First of all, we need to understand that there are different types of articles, from casual reviews and opinions, more or less personal to the scientific article well substantiated with scientific data. Without judging its accuracy or its editing quality, the NYC article in question is a mere editorial article that contains the writer's opinion, the way he/she saw certain features of Qatari society. It is in no means, and the author never said so, an accurate study of Qatari society. We shouldn’t read it a scientific material but as a piece of art, like a painting painted by the author. The final output focuses on certain features and does it the way it came out, perhaps to highlight Qatari social issues that may need some attention. Overall it’s a personal view and that’s the way we should read it. This type of articles are published every where in the free world, sometimes very harsh on the society where they are published. In my opinion these are very important to stimulate awareness, debate and eventual may lead into improvements. The whole fuss about it, is that this type of articles are quite new in societies like the one in Qatar, and some here are not “prepared” to take it and deal with it, as it stands: a personal point of view of certain current social issues. Qatari society, due to its culture, political situation and its very limited and short exposure to the “contemporaneous modern democratic world”, are still not prepared to discuss in public their own weaknesses and are still not prepared to laugh at their own mistakes, like people do in the “Western world”. This is understandable and changes can only come from themselves, with time.

(cont.)

They are also stereotyped as lazy because of people such as the original poster and other disgruntled expats who more likely than not are envious of the Qatari population, and the privileges they believe they are entitled to, which usually are nothing but a gross exaggeration of the reality of the situation.

One only needs to browse through forums/blogs where there are exchanges between Qataris/Expats to observe how highly sensitive some of them turn when a Qatari poster merely implies that there are discriminatory policies in place that operate against Qataris in practice. Yet when it comes to attacking, generalizing and grouping Qataris as a whole, it's open season.

To be honest this doesn't really bother me when I witness some expats behaving in this way, because all it does is reinforce what I have been always saying about Qatar not discriminating when they hire foreign professionals, they do sometimes hire those who have the necessary skills and experience, but they also appoint to senior positions a lot who would have had great difficulty being hired at decent firms in their home countries even pre-recession. I wonder how a lot of these people would react if the situation was reversed and they found a translated version of an Arabic publication revealing how a lot of the expats who may not be adequately skilled/experienced are living lavishly, and focused one-sidedly only on this section of the expatriate community, all of a sudden we would hear cries of "Propaganda!".

The whole idea that all expats are more than willing to train Qataris to replace them is just preposterous, aside from the human nature aspect of it where some may fear being replaced (the problems with Qatarization is another issue, but I don't want to get into it over here) , in a lot of cases you will find that some just overlook this duty of their mandate for whatever other reasons, a lot of my Qatari friends who have graduated from top universities abroad have expressed to me the problems they have faced with their respective departments and lack of training they have received since their return to Doha. Any sensible person will realize that it doesn't make sense that such graduates would choose to go through rigorous workloads at these top institutions with the intentions of returning to their countries with a lackluster approach to their work obligations.

As for the original poster's friends and their opinions, well you chose to hangout with such people so please don't use them as examples of what the Qatari population thinks, the Qataris who I choose to associate with don't share the opinions of those you posted. Yes those types exist and nobody is denying that, but my friends and acquaintances exist too, and the fact that you choose to be around the former doesn't negate the existence of the latter.

From my own experience and what I have witnessed there, I would rather pay then use the free medical services of HMC. Aside from the ridiculous waiting lists, you will find there exactly what I stated about no distinction being made between the skilled and incompetent in the hiring process. I spent 2 months going there almost every day for a simple injury that they had problems identifying, I saw over 10 doctors during that period, and none of them knew what do with me. As soon as I went to the UK within my first visit they identified the problem and put me on a rehabilitation program. As one poster mentioned the majority of Qataris have to rely on HMC for their medical treatments, and I question their competence in more serious cases if they could not even handle my simple injury, and exaggerated the extent of my injuries to perhaps cover up their inability to perform what they were hired for. This is just one of many negative experiences I have had with them, and I have vowed never to use them again if I can avoid it.

So no, Qataris aren't living in heaven, majority aren't fortunate enough to have decent medical care nor can they afford it, and all your other points are mostly irrational and serve no purpose other than appeal to the incompetent section of the expat population, a group usually incapable of making fair and reasoned judgments and delights in any opportunity that permits them to generalize and attack locals.

@ Nic Ironically you touch on the fake rosy pictures Qatar presents to the world, but overlook the fake rosy picture of the average Qatari's life based on the article, which goes to the root of what I was saying in my previous post.

I think we both can agree that the way the country is setup restricts ones ability to freely express their opinions, but I am also sure you can't deny that these petro dollars are also the same reason why Western governments are willing to overlook abuses to their own citizens when in such nations, as I have stated on here before, Western govts do nothing when their citizens are arbitrarily detained for years in the GCC, but will make a huge fuss if an enemy such as Iran/Syria were to even detain a Westerner for a few hours. So if even these 'protectors of democracy' are unwilling to assist their own citizens who are subjected to human right abuses, how reasonable and objective is it to expect the local population to openly speak up? Furthermore, taking into account these considerations , how objective would it be to compare Qatar to places like Hong Kong, Tokyo, and so on?

As for the whole notion of Qataris rejecting foreigners and not wanting to mingle, well if you were to compare the attitudes of Chinese people in a rural town in China to that of those in Hong Kong in respect to a large influx of foreigners, I am sure we both can agree that there will be a great difference in their opinions and willingness to accept the situation. Remember that in less than a decade Qatar has managed to quadruple its population, a country that was once known for its isolation from the rest of the world, a situation that other Qataris have no voice on, whether they agree or disagree to it. I assure you there are several Qataris who would be more than willing to show expats around the city and invite them to participate in events that are a part of the local culture. It would be ridiculous to presume the majority would not be willing to do so, you have to keep in mind that unlike China, there is no way of distinguishing which ones would be more 'rural' in mentality, and those that wouldn't, for they are all based within the same city, thus a preconceived expectation of what the local population's opinions of your presence will be simply cannot apply to a place like Qatar where locality can't even be considered as a relevant factor.

So yes, such one-sided articles that paint a rosy picture of the life of the average Qatari are not innocuous, all they do is exacerbate the issues facing Qataris who are unable to voice their opinions on the lack of proper health care, education, and whatnot, and it doesn't help when some expats state this article does truly capture the essence of what is going on in Qatar, when you have yourself acknowledged the destructive factors that come with petro dollars. If you are aware that Qatar is willing to "paint rosy pictures" of itself to the rest of the world, you should also appreciate that it would be likely that the situation of a lot of Qataris are also concealed under this painting, from people such as my friends who graduate from top universities and find nowhere willing to train them adequately, to those with more serious issues in respect to basic needs one should expect in a nation as wealthy as Qatar. Maybe jealousy would not be correct word for some of you, but certainly a lack of objectivity.

Hmm, first

I want to say this. Everybody, no matter what nationality, is defensive when it comes to their home country. Between ourselves we moan and complain , but when "outsiders" do the same, we become defensive. That is normal human behaviour. I am sure Qataris realize what is going on in their country,the good and the bad. Expats have no affiliation to Qatar, other than doing their job, making money and then going back home. It is therefore easy for them to look at what they see,and saying exactly that, no excuses no beating around the bush. Of course, different attitudes, due to upbringing and culture factor into this. What some nationalities see as constructive criticism, other see as plain rude.

And yes, I am sure that jealousy plays a large role in all this. What we see is one thing, reality may be another. As mentioned before, due to lack of cross communication both sides have pre conceived opinions.

Having said all this, it is obvious that it is only a generalisation, as many Expats and Qataris are friends and do talk. But those people may not feel the need to talk about this on QL ;)

Anyhow, I am one of those expats that has Qatari friends from different walks of life , and I can tell you this...they are as normal or crazy as the next person you may meet on your travels or at home.

People don't always express opinions about what they see and experience because of jealousy.

I am not jealous of Qataris, on the contrary I feel great sorry for them.

I have previously worked in Tokyo, Singapore and Hong Kong and I have never described the inhabitants of those countries/territories, as lazy or unprofessional because they are simply not like that. On the contrary, they are hardworking and excellent professionals. Locals and expats compete equally for a position and competences, qualifications and relevant experience are the selection criteria’s.

As for the socializing aspect, all the three mentioned cities were incredible personal experiences where locals and expats share equally the same spaces, allowing a great cultural interchange, an amazing learning and teaching experience.

Not only expats are welcome to mingle and mix with locals but they are often invited to participate in local activities.

This is what happens in normal countries, where people, independently from their background go through similar life and professional growth paths.

Now, its not about jealousy, its about knowing how the world (north, south, east and west) functions and realizing that these petrodollars young nations are a disgrace for their future generations with the aggravating factor of not only not facing the reality but constantly disguising it with fake rosy pictures.

A Qatari may not able to see or understand what I just wrote here, because they generally lack the experience of being an expat in hard working nations.

If a Qatari had the chance to go and spend 10 years in Tokyo, Singapore or Hong Kong and then come back to Doha and compare how locals and expats work here and how they do in those places, then he/she will understand why so many expats agree with the article in question (including those who don’t dare for fear, to express in public this agreement).

If there was a humble recognition of the problem and a genuine open and transparent request for help, Qatar would get all it needs from the expats, including a genuine job training for the locals!

That would be great kbaisi..... I would be happy being of any help to you. :-)

@ Khattak that I can understand and it is also difficult because of the language barriers for some, as for the english speakers I wouldn't know why they would avoid such gatherings. It's funny you mention that because I have something in mind which I will hopefully setup when I return that will help facilitate communication between the two groups, it was in fact an American who had proposed the idea to me (it's mainly her project too), and I will hopefully speak to her about it when I return. I don't want to get into details now as it is way too early, but I do have intentions of hopefully getting some people from QL to participate in it.

Kbaisi... I agree that sometimes we, the expatriates, exaggerate things related to locals. But the reason is the communication gap between locals & expatriates. I've felt on a number of occasions that the locals dont want to mix up with expatriates... which makes it difficult for us to understand them & their problems. Here on QL, you would find just a few Locals posting regularly and they too just appear in the thread carrying negative comments about Qatar. I've very often seen them socializing with other QLers by attending gatherings initiated by different groups on QL.

genesis

so what you want a very Qatari in the country to be treated as VIP? I mean they are people too you get sick they get sick they are here to work , there is no special treatment in hospitals and their shouldn’t be , these expat are here or a reason and would be glad to leave and go back home but do you think we're ready to take over ...some companies have long term plans which is hire an expat because of his experience and put a Qatari developee to work close to him until he learns the job then proudly take over his place and expat goes bye bye and there is so many honorable expats that would be happy to give their job to a Qatari just as long they know how to do it ...

it’s not about look it’s about work quality that us locals lack

and yes this only goes to the majority of the Qataris some are really hard working and always stereotyped as lazy because of lots of act

Genesis,

I have nothing against the way the mentioned public servant(s) look. They are normal Qatari citizens with normal looks!

Did you misunderstand what I meant? I was referring to the unprofessional posture (feet on the desk and playing with gadgets) and untidiness desk (papers all over). I gave you the example of the Kahrama kiosk in the city centre because it’s displayed to the public, but feel free to go elsewhere in Qatar and check how these male Qatari young employees are at "work".

I am describing what I see on a daily basis in several public Qatari offices.

It’s a fact and it’s not your fault, but we cannot ignore it, otherwise how on earth will you deal with it?!

Maturity allows one to distinguish critical description of reality from ridiculing situations.

I certainly cannot say from what I observe here that all young male Qatari public servants display a professional posture at work. Either I say what I see (which I did here) or I remain in silence, which some seem to prefer around here, when rosy pictures are not painted!

Please don’t shut your eyes to reality!

Thank you so much nic

Ridiculing the whole country just because you don't like how the public servant look?

How typical of you...

Btw,how do you explain consirvatives opinion & their huge win in europe ? Isn't similar to the opinions expressed by Qataris in the nyt article?

Genesis,

The article was a caricature of Qatar.

It doesn’t mean that all Qataris are like it was described. But some are and they appear to be the most visible ones all over, even at "work".

Have you seen a desk of a Qatari? As an illustrative example displayed to the public’s eyes, have a look at the Kharama kiosk at the City Centre and notice the untidiness and the unprofessional posture of that clerk on duty (many and all the same as they are often changed) and you will see what the author described in the article!

I think you live in lala land or maybe west bay area.

Have you been to the outskirts of alrayyan or rural areas of Qatar and saw how more than 50% of qataris living?

Free healthcare...have you been to HMC lately and saw how qatari patients outnumbered by expats?and unlike many expats, most Qatari employees work in government offices and doesn't receive health insurance

Free education...does government schools qualify ordinary Qatari students to be accepted at Qu or EDC?

Have you heard of the central item ? Do you know how many qataris get early retirement ?

Do you think they all want that ?

How many corrupted highly paid expat was caught in the past few years?

That's why many qataris are frustrated

u r really wise.... thn many qataris i hav com across

well good for you then :P

yes free even in Hamad hospital even I had one LOL

LOL i know thats a live

for cosmetic purposes?

somwerNdmiddle: claiming plastic surgery aint easy even for a Qatari..will not be paid unless provided a good reason.

free plastic surgery? really?!

The nuveau rich are the same in most countries... They use their wealth to have a great time and to hell with the rest of the world..

Taken from the artical.

"But they also complain that they do not get paid as much as foreigners"

“To be honest, I’m comfortable and the salaries are good,” said ****** ** ******, 29, a Qatari high school dropout who said he earns about $41,000 a year working for the government as a security guard in a mall. “Everyone is getting what he deserves and more.”

I wonder how many "foreign" security guards at villagio earn $41000 a year?

You have to laugh.

finally u spok in a wise manner :)

no matter what others think... but i just LOVE your posts.>!! :)

The curse of wealth!

No comments,,/.......Just one more thing don't be over hard lol