Sterilization to control population

Yeah I heard of this sterilization.

It's just a brutal idea! This conspiracy of depopulating the world is not new, but this is the first I know it has actually been practiced .

Brite- On this case, we should not give opportunity to anyone to change their minds :)

I worry about the permanence of it all. I know at least three females who said they did nt want kids, but later changed their minds...

Agreed but why make the parents suffer?

I think it would be a good idea to make sterelization voluntary and start an incentive system for the volunteers. That way it would work out cheaper for the governments.

In my opinion the system is at fault. Legally, the child is the responsibility of the parents up to the age of 18. So, if she has a child, the parents should be responsible for the upkeep.

These people would have been better off if they were sterelized :)

We are going off track, but Missteacher is right. I have a Scottish friend whose daughter had a child just to get on to the housing list.

Scotland for sure! So many girls!

Two girls in my bro's year at school for example, aged 11 were pregnant, left school and have been on benefits ever since. That's just one example could rhyme off loads more. makes me sick! Not sure if England is as bad?

MT - Where does that happen? In UK?

Well yes that angers me too but tbh I don't really think about it. Its the thousands of teenagers I see and hear about that pop out 4 or 5 babies so they can get a house, car, free driving lessons, satellite TV....etc... and never have to work a day in their lives!!! grrrr >:(

I'm talking about sustainable population.

If everyone in the world consumed as much food and water and paper and clothing and other goods as Americans (or Emiratis or Bahrainis or Qataris) we would run out of everything within a year.

There simply isn't enough 'stuff' on the face of the Earth to feed everyone as wastefully as the non-Asian/African parts.

On average, humans are using more resources than what the Earth can replenish.

Seems like God made a mistake - the world isn't big enough for all of us.

The maths is pretty simple:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_Footprint

Insanity - Please read the below for the link between Poverty,Pollution and Population:

The relationship between poverty, population growth and environment has been widely debated inside the academic circles. There is a general consensus that poverty is a major cause of population growth and environmental degradation and reversely population growth is the major cause of poverty and environmental degradation. The present study examines the impact of poverty on environment (air pollution) and population and reversely the impact of population on environment (air pollution) and poverty in the specific context of Pakistan during a period of 1975-2009. Data is analyzed using Ordinary Least Square (OLS) regression method and Autoregressive Distributed Lag (ARDL)-bounds testing approach to examine the linkage.

The results of the OLS test show that rapid population and air pollution has a significant contributor to poverty in Pakistan. However, the results nullify the conventional view that poverty is a major cause of environmental degradation (or air pollution), while the result supports the hypothesis that population have a deleterious impact on increasing poverty. The results of bounds test show that there is a stable long-run relationship between population, poverty and pollution in Pakistan. On the other hand, results of the causality test show that there is a unidirectional causal flow from population to carbon dioxide emission.

http://www.iiste.org/journals/index.php/JEDS/article/view/887

"...The trouble with denying that there is a global carrying capacity for the human population is that you are basically saying that it is okay for millions to live in slum conditions in Asian and Africa. ..."

I mean you are talking about 2-3 different things - as per my understanding the ecological footprint is w.r.t pollution, but we are discussing about population. correct me if I am wrong...

And then you talk about poverty in Africa. What is the link....between pollution, population (and poverty).

Ah yes...they are not aware....Can somebody please point out the ever so elusive brain??/Please?

"..i.e. stop the income and tax payers paying for their children..."

I agree with you completely. Also tax payers money should not be used to procure/develop prohibitively expensive nuclear weapons, fighter aircrafts, submarines and other arms and ammunition. They should not be used to participate in unnecessary wars and development of highly expensive missile ssytems and bombs....

i think these consume hundreds of times more tax payers money than what is used for welfare and benefits of citizens...

Insanity - "We dont beleive in population myth because we have more faith in Gods command and God is All Powerful/has infinite power (he does not need support from others to become more powerful)"

Population is not a myth.It's a reality in front of our eyes. It is a fact backed by statistics. We see it all around us. Unlike God sadly. And btw, God does need support from all the religious folks around for his own popularity.

Scientists estimate a world-average biocapacity of 1.8 global hectares per person.

In Qatar, the average is 10.51 global hectares per person.

If the population of the world lived as wastefully as the residents of Qatar, then we'd all be in deep trouble.

The trouble with denying that there is a global carrying capacity for the human population is that you are basically saying that it is okay for millions to live in slum conditions in Asian and Africa.

Why should certain countries live like wasteful lives and at the same time force the citizens of poorer countries to starve to death.

That sort of attitude makes me sick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ecological_footprint

Insanity - You said "I am not denying that we should not strive to conserve resources; however limiting number of children to conserve resource is not logical because human beings not just consume - they also add value in some form or other. So the pie is not fixed it keeps increasing"

What value do human beings add to consumption of natural resources?

Limiting the population is not a matter of choice anymore. It's a matter of global interest. We have to learn from the Chinese experience. Their one child policy is a success story worth emulating. We can no longer afford to be selfish and hide behind books to do what we like. We have to think of the issues of extinction of our race altogether. We still have time and I believe we can win this race and save our planet. If you get a chance go to Youtube and watch an award winning documentary called "Home". It might not be to your liking but it definately proves a point that iám trying to make here. we the humans have become our own biggest enemy after we have successfully pushed every other resource on this planet to extinction.

"...used to increase that faith's numbers and hence the power of those people that control that faith...."

We dont beleive in population myth because we have more faith in Gods command and God is All Powerful/has infinite power (he does not need support from others to become more powerful)

"...Blind obidence in today's world is not acceptable..."

We obey God after careful consideration (not blindly); however the same cannot be said about your believe in "Population Myth"

I dont think it is right to limit how many children a couple have. This is their own choice and bodies.

However, if a couple are seeking benefits for not having a job and get everything paid for them because they keep popping out babies then something financial must be done to discourage the couple from having more. i.e. stop the income and tax payers paying for their children.

Well, it would help if some people would use the other organ that God has given them a bit more...the brain.

"...(As people writing 2000 or 1400 years ago are also in that trap).."

Yes "People" can make mistakes but God can't.

Promoting many children is an idealogy of many faiths, (Because of course you have to brain wash your children into your religion rather than allow them to think for themselves) and is used to increase that faith's numbers and hence the power of those people that control that faith. Blind obidence in today's world is not acceptable.

Yes Malthus was wrong at the time he said it as he did not know the advances in agriculture that were to come. (As people writing 2000 or 1400 years ago are also in that trap)

However as we have seen in nature a population boom preceds a collapse.

Lets hope not many think like you insanity or else your selfishness will doom us all.

Meanwhile those who want to have more kids and increase their progeny, be it for religious reasons or otherwise will continue to do so, whilst those who do not wish to do so have now more options than before to ensure they have no "oooooopps"

And whilst both parties may not agree with the other, we can all agree on one thing, no one should be forced to do anything against their will. And just as someone wouldn't want to be made pregnant and forced to have children against their will, neither will someone want to be faced with the sad predicament of the women mentioned in the OP!

"...Ya, a poor family having one kid after the other , not being able to properly feed, clothe and educate them, defo is a true boon for all mankind :P.."

So the poor family should not have even 1 kid according to you??

Ya, a poor family having one kid after the other , not being able to properly feed, clothe and educate them, defo is a true boon for all mankind :P

"........We're doomed by people who can't get their nose out of a 2000 year old book. Sad. :(........"

We are doomed by people who rely on Malthus's theory which has been proved to be wrong.

However I am not asking you to rely on any book - I am asking you to logically prove what you are saying.

human beings as a whole are better of now than they were ever in the history of mankind though the population has continued to increase - this itself proves your theory to be incorrect. If you have any more arguments then you can put it forward.

"...Humans have made great strides over the last 100 years in improving yields from ever smaller pieces of land, but even that has a limit. As some have said the next war will not be over oil but water. Be afraid, be very afraid...."

Do you know what is the limit of human creativity ?? Did anyone foresee ipads 100 years ago ??

I am not denying that we should not strive to conserve resources; however limiting number of children to conserve resource is not logical because human beings not just consume - they also add value in some form or other. So the pie is not fixed it keeps increasing.

We're doomed by people who can't get their nose out of a 2000 year old book. Sad. :(

".........It makes no references to fossil fuels, mobile phones, computers, air travel and the like or how to deal with the finite resources and population explosion over the last 100 years..."

1) Islam teaches us how to deal with and conserve resources like for ex. water

2) Islam teaches us that the giver of Rizq is Allah and promotes having more children

3) Islam teaches us to make use of what is beneficial for mankind

4) Makes no reference to mobiles/computers: I think it is irrelevant to the discussion; whats yr point here ??

To quote someone who has put across beautifully:

"When it is said that the ‘Islamic Law is Outdated’, the main point that is missed is that The Islamic law is divine and from Allah Subhanawatala The Aleem, The Hakeem, the Most Knowledgeable and The Most Wise. To consider Islamic Law to be outdated is to deny these supreme qualities of our creator. "

Population explosion is a myth.

MM Said:

"...ya.. there's NO scientific studies to say that overpopulation is a problem: ..."

I can also post here 10 links which propose that population explosion is a myth and the originator of this myth is Malthus whose theory has already been proved to be wrong.

Humans have made great strides over the last 100 years in improving yields from ever smaller pieces of land, but even that has a limit. As some have said the next war will not be over oil but water. Be afraid, be very afraid.

ya.. there's NO scientific studies to say that overpopulation is a problem:

http://www.sixpak.org/vince/overpopulation.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090418075752.htm

http://articles.cnn.com/2007-09-25/tech/overpopulation.overview_1_world-population-population-institute-population-estimates?_s=PM:TECH

Insanity, we need to understand the world we live in now and although a nice guide book it does not deal with the modern world. It makes no references to fossil fuels, mobile phones, computers, air travel and the like or how to deal with the finite resources and population explosion over the last 100 years. In fact if we took it literally and had as many children as possible we would be sealing our own fate.

We need to live in the world that contains all people of all faiths, all races and all beliefs. We need to do that for ourselves not hope some external entity will help us avoid castrophe. (God's record on this in the past is pretty poor. Earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, plague, disease etc)

"..........Because we're heading towards a global catastrophe. Which means we all have to start being responsible, regardless of our race or religion..."

Therein lies our difference in ways of thinking; Muslims believe that having more children is good (the more the better) provided they are taught good values and that this will help in development of human civilization.

We believe that trying to alter/interfere in the prescribed rule of God will lead world to catastrophe and to avoid it we need to follow Gods command in all matters including that in family planning.

"..........Maybe Islam prohibits permanent methods of family planning and that was ok 1400 years ago but is dangerous now, unless all,the believers want to get to heaven faster fighting in wars over resources...."

According to muslims Islam is religion prescribed by God for mankind till the day of judgement; it is applicable now as it was aplicable 1400 yrs ago and will be applciable till the day of judgement.

As God is all knowing and has knowledge about future God knew while prescribing this law that it will be adequate for solving the problems of mankind forever.

Do you want to say that human beings nowadays have got more wisdom than God to decide what is best for them ?? Or that God did not have the wisdom so he created a law which was applicable earlier and now is outdated ?? (Nauzubillah)

Now comes the question of fighting over resources - beleivers beleive in living and let live and there is enough to provide for mankind today as it was earlier.

There is no scientific evidence to prove otherwise; if you have any evidence then please put forward and prove it.

I have already given one example that human beings as a whole are better of now than they were ever in the history of mankind though the population has continued to increase.

Because we're heading towards a global catastrophe. Which means we all have to start being responsible, regardless of our race or religion.

"...As for vasectomies/hysterectomies being illegal, so plastic surgery is halal but a vasectomy is haram? Ridiculous. And why enforce it on people who aren't Muslim..."

1) Plastic surgery just for the purpose of beautification is is prohibited in Islam

2) You ask "Why enforce it on people who arent muslim" and at the same time you say that more than 2 children should be discouraged/taxed etc. So my answer was the same why enforce this practice on muslims ??

If you take adequate precautions, you can almost certainly prevent pregnancy. Therefore permenant methods of counterconcpetion are not only considered crulity against humanity but are also a major crime.

Insanity - Circumscison is changing human physiology or no?

MM - Thats coz we interpret our books to suit our interests.It's not only about Islam,it's tru for all religions.

What we haven't realized is the fact that we have already overexploited this planet and we are looking straight down the barrel of a gun if we don't act fact and act decisively. The whole world is whiling away their time hoping that earth will provide it's riches for our use indefinately for indefinate population.

Populaion growth needs to be curbed at all costs.

Insanity, what world do you live in that there are no links to overpopulation and lack of food & water? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation

If we continue to grow at the rate we are growing we will eventually run out of space to grow food and run out of fresh water. The Earth is not some unending bread basket.

As for vasectomies/hysterectomies being illegal, so plastic surgery is halal but a vasectomy is haram? Ridiculous. And why enforce it on people who aren't Muslim?

to a study that has just been published after 2 years investigation;but I'll preface the link by adding that what anybody 'thinks', 'opines'or gleans from their milliania outdated 'religious' books is no substitute for a sober investigation of the facts and models run by those that actually know what they are talking about and have the studies to back them up;as we see below:

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/04/uks-royal-society-finds-no-silv.html?ref=em

Maybe Islam prohibits permanent methods of family planning and that was ok 1400 years ago but is dangerous now, unless all,the believers want to get to heaven faster fighting in wars over resources.

Thanks...!!!

".......population laws are laws like the one's here in the UAE that make vasectomies and hysterectomies illegal......."

Islam prohibits all Permanent methods of family planning. All the scholars unanimously agree that permanent methods of family planning are prohibited since they involve changing human physiology.

Brilliant insanity... i m also starting to enjoy being insane in 'their' (:P) eye

Has the average standard of living in the world increased OR decreased over the centuries ?

Has the population increased OR decreased over the centuries ??

".....People are selfish, they can't be trusted to practice manageable breeding themselves, the government needs to enforce it. I think 2 children is a reasonable number......"

I think the government should not play God and let the people make their own decisions.

"....problems associated with overpopulation, like global warming, lack of jobs, food, inadequate healthcare, etc...."

There is no evidence to prove that the lack of food supply is linked to overpopulation.

There is no fixed pie that if there are more people the number of jobs will decrease because human beings when they come to this world they do not just consume they also add value to human race.

Due to technological advancement the amount of food grains produced per square hectare has increased many times over the last 100 years. There is no saturation limit for the advancement of human civilization.

There is enough in this world for everyones need but not for everyones greed.

Why Uzbekistan?

Mandi

Enforcement is not the answer. Today, it will be the number of children, tomorrow it will be gingers and who knows what next :O(

Ex - I agree with you.

eventually we will then witness what was imagined in the movie "Children of Men" 2006.

I'am completely FOR this kind of initiatives. I strongly believe that if we have to make a positive difference and prevent our kind from extinction we must resolve to extraordinary measures like forced sterilization. Let people have not more than one kid to begin with and let's promote wars to increase the death rate.

Marco...the "wrestling" is also something some faiths oppose..;)

Marco, just so you know, I oppose 100% ALL policies of the Catholic church.

And I am 100% for contraception.

I am, in fact, not only opposed to the CH, but I despise them...and all that stems in some way from them.

Thing is though, those people who reproduce copiously, usually do not view their offspring as a burden...they usually view them as an opportunity for themselves.AND in many cases, rely on charity and government handouts for financing all that.

I think those people do need some "education".

Wow MN That was so funny that i forgot to laugh!!! Your Advice is covered as Extra- Lusre Activities Nice attempt anyway......

Alien_ Guest : Another way would be to arm wrestle the one-eyed vessel :D

I agree with Cherukkan. Contraception, Education and Extra- Lesure Activities is the Answer!!!

Whatever reason you bring to justify as per my theory forced sterilization is ridiculous and breach of human rights.

NM: Well No Mercy, since you touched on how contraception is something that’s not accepted under the Catholic Church laws.

I think it’s only fair to point out that Catholicism it teaches artificial contraception is wrong because it goes against the basic tenants of the concept of the family in Catholic Church as being one unit.

So for those devout members of the Catholic Church

Who feel children would be an unbearable fienical, physical or psychological burden, the There is always an approved alternative to artificial contraception which is natural family planning.

Easy Breezy

If you want really efficient population control, then the governments of countries have to set a amount of income that people have to have to produce offspring. This amount can't be charity or government based, but has to be legally earned by those wanting have children.

If this is implemented and enforced, it will put a stop to the practice of putting out various amounts of offspring in the hope that one may be able to finance the whole clan.

Those flouting the rule, can't get any government handouts.

I'm not saying this is perfect, and it certainly is harsh,but never the less it will be more effective than what has been done so far.

for some kids are a burden looking at the responses here.

Well, contraception is not acceptable for some people.

Particularly those who are somewhat connected to the Catholic church.

Education, awareness and free contraception! Let's not forget free contraception!

Thing is, those with the most kids usually are not able to pay taxes...but rely on government handouts or any other form of charity.

I'm sorry, I believe in a free society this is a ridiculous idea. Not to even go into the details of how and why.

However I whole heartedly second the ideas suggested aby MISS MIMI as well as TB and that’s I agree that‘s we should control the growth of population through education and raising awareness.

A terrible violation of her human rights. There was also a BBC Radio 4 commentary on this.

Having said that, I agree that there should be legal disincentives (taxes) to discourage people from having large families that they cannot support or their region needs.

I think we all generally agree - there should be disincentives to have large families, and all people have a right to bodily integrity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodily_integrity

People can still choose to start smoking Brit, but news laws and higher prices mean that it's not in there best interests. Which, in turn, has meant the countries with the strictest laws against smoking and the highest priced cigarettes have seen the highest drops in the number of people starting.

You can still smoke, it's just not really worth it to do.

People can still choose to have more than two children, and there's no law against it. It's just simply not in their best interests to do so.

At the end of the day, there must be freedom of choice. Whilst I agree that the way forward is smaller families and less children, I believe that education and freedom will achieve that.

Enforcement by hardship is not the answer.

I do not advocate forced sterilisations or Eugenics, but there are too many of us and it will reach a critical point sometime in the future. I can't see the future so I do not know when that will be but we are getting to the limits of how much we can squeeze out of the land to feed homo sapiens. Evolution will do for us, if we don't take steps to pull ourselves back from the brink

You need to do more than educate TB, you need to make it completely undesirable to have more than 2 children. Be that through increased taxes, or perhaps financial benefits for those with two children and under. You need to make the most effective forms of contraception, like IUD's and contraceptive implants, the cheapest and easiest to get, instead of the pill & condoms which are not nearly as effective. You need to make vasectomies & hysterectomies readily available and affordable as well.

We need an entire mindset change, especially in developing parts of the world, that focuses on a sustainable population, rather than big families.

To me, what's more disgusting than strict population laws are laws like the one's here in the UAE that make vasectomies and hysterectomies illegal. That is just irresponsible.

Educate women enough and they won't want more than a couple of kids.

There is piles and piles of empirical data to show that women who have more advanced education qualifications show a decreased desire to have large families.

Ultimately the fact remains that there are too many humans already on the Earth, and something must be done to slow population growth.

in my opinion,

- generally forcing will never lead to any good results.

- regarding population concern: the proper education is the solution.

- and in this woman case: it's a sad story but this could have happened in some other way and this is her destiny

unbelievable.... 80

Sadly, this sort of rumour is used to control the population. A similar thing happened when the government in Pakistan introduced iodized salt to help people. Some politicians spread rumours that this was a ploy by the americans and the salt contained birth control additives..

No I don't agree with forcing hysterectomy's. What I do agree with is increased taxes and fees for people who have over 2 children, subsidized contraception (including vasectomies and hysterectomies)and mandatory sex education.

But TB, obviously people aren't capable of controlling themselves or the world population wouldn't be at 7 billion.

MM, Are we electing the Government to do hysterectomy to the female population without their knowledge or consent? It is pathetic and a move against human rights.

The bottom line is there are too many people in the world, currently around 7 billion. Whereas the long term sustainable population of homo sapiens at current rates of consumption is 1 billion.

That means something has to give....

Tb the government is who we elect to take care of the problems associated with overpopulation, like global warming, lack of jobs, food, inadequate healthcare, etc. People are selfish, they can't be trusted to practice manageable breeding themselves, the government needs to enforce it. I think 2 children is a reasonable number.

That is funny! Specially when I consider out of all my friends of all nationalities in Qatar, it's my American friends who get preggers here fastest and have the most number of kids.One of them had never had any kids,but since she moved to Qatar she's now been having a kid a year..every year(she's got 3 now). Guess they don't drink the water themselves!

Back to the OP: That is very very wrong and highly unacceptable on all accounts. I can't even imagine the kind of pain and horror these women must experience. Truly an inhuman practice and a classic case of heads of state playing God to their subjects!

Wow, Where are the Human Rights people?

and that'd explain how many local families have between 4 - 6 children.... I think the Americans must be adding Fertility drugs...

I recall a conversation with a local lady here in Qatar where she was totally convinced that the "Americans" were putting something in the bottled water here so that people couldn't get pregnant.

I wanted to suggest to her that maybe being obese, over 35, and having a terrible diet might make it difficult to conceive.

I personally don't agree with enforced limiting, but enforced sterlization is definitely a no-no..

We have sterilisation in Qatar, its called Land Cruiser drivers.

It should never be done without the knowledge of the person. However, limiting couples to two children isn't a bad idea given the problems with over population in the world.