Remembrance/ Veterans Day

After i left the Bomb Disposal unit, i lost track of some of my mates.

It was a shock when i opened the paper back in '94 and read about his death.

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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM

You're right. This is the "gumph" that the politicians put out. However, they go to war "believing" that their actions will not only help their country, but also make the world a better place.

By the way, I think the term does apply for the two world wars, but not so much for the curent "conflicts"

I love the veterans who fought for any cause with the right intentions or were drafted and didn't have a choice.

And I commend anyone who remembers their suffering not just on veterans day but everyday of the year. More should be done for our troops who give up and suffer so much for their country.

But I can't help but feel negative when I hear that they died to "make the world a better place." Cuz I just disagree that any war makes the world better. In fact, I want to argue that wars are part of the problem.

Well Said..

Watching the remberance day ceremonies and the "pride" on the faces of the old veterans does stir the old emotions a bit.

As an aside.. i read an interesting article about the "makeup" of the US army nowadays. Apparently many non-citizens join because it gives them an easier way in to getting nationality..

you accept that you may be asked to fight and die for ya country.Its just a shame there are certain " people" who winge and whine about wars and how soldiers are all murderers and baby killers etc, whilst sitting in their houses comfatable, watching CNN,while young men and women are fighting for these people, to live freely with all the freedoms and rights they have.

Pity these morons dont have the balls to do the job themselves........

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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM

New one on me too.. Thanks

all part of the job I say! you win some, you lose some....

WWI changed the way that regiments are formed in the UK. In WWI, regiments were apparently formed from single locations.This put all the recruits from one town or area in the same regiment. When regiments were wiped out, as many were, there were no men left to return to the town.

I didn't realise until recently the significance of the poppy. It was the only thing that grew on the fields of battle.

Lets hope they will be here next poppy day.

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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM

From The TimesNovember 12, 2008

Determined spirit of Henry Allingham, Great War veteran, stirs crowd at Cenotaph

Henry Allingham, 112, attempted to get up to place his wreath personally - but, struggle as he might, his body was too frail

It is the spontaneous gestures that tell the story behind the ceremony, the moments of real emotion that cut through it all to lay bare our innermost thoughts — and yesterday, as Henry Allingham struggled in vain against the infirmities of old age to rise to his feet, it told a powerful story of remembrance and loss.

Almost everyone knows the name of Henry Allingham now, and Harry Patch and Bill Stone, Britain’s surviving veterans from the First World War and the last living reminders of a generation that sustained terrible losses.

The three of them lined up in their wheelchairs to lay their wreaths, each representing the Armed Service they belonged to — the Royal Air Force for Mr Allingham, 112, the Army for Mr Patch, 110, and the Royal Navy for Mr Stone, 108. Accompanying each man was a member of today’s Armed Forces who has been decorated for bravery

Canadians in Qatar are invited to attend our Remembrance Day Ceremonies scheduled for November 11, 2008 to be held at Al Jazeeraland Compound.

check here:

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/257050

thanks Gypsy for your post..

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“You become responsible forever for what you have tamed”. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Oh, Notfromhere, I am so sorry about your Dad. We had a lovely Remembrance Day service at the Anglican Church of the Epiphany Sunday evening here in Doha. Lots of soldiers and other service people there. Beautiful music and a very moving reading of "In Flanders Field." And the bugle played.

Mandi

from that conflict, instead of one of my mates.

We should remember all the troops, living or dead for their sacrifices.

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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM

I am just echoing your post. Yes you are absolutely right!

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

Yes I guess you can ahave 0.67 of a person MD..thanks just to busy with measurements..forgot I was refering to ppl..lol

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HE WHO DARES WINS

MD I mean 2 hundred thousand.. I am an Engineer and to do accuracy of measurement to two decimal places i guess...lol

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HE WHO DARES WINS

UK, you must be an accountant. Since when do people come as decimals? (200,000.00) You don't mean 20 million, don't you?

200,000.00 Indians died fighting for the British wars..They are also remembered in the UK along with others.. In UK around Buckingham place we have memorial for all commonwealth vetrans that died while fight for the Crown..

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HE WHO DARES WINS

my grandpa was a freedom fighter in the Indian War for Independence :-)

Qwerty dont agree mate.. When I see the 80 or 90 year old vetrans walking day the Mall on Rememberance Sunday it gives you the feel that these guys are as much heros as there fallen comorades..

I guess thats why wear the poppy to signify that..

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HE WHO DARES WINS

My uncle died in North Africa during Rommel's warfare. I think he was an idiot to do what he did.

Thanks for the sentiment. My Grandad was in the Great War and never came back.

well if we're all just going to get along, agree and play nice, what's the point of the internet ;)?

but I agree: remembrance day should be about remembering the fallen, point blank.

We should remember the dead but anyone who has fought for their country for the right reason should be proud of him/herself.

Rememberance day is both for the living and the dead..

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HE WHO DARES WINS

Gypsy's right. Rather than te rights and wrongs of war, we should all remember the fallen soldier.. No matter what the conflict, he/she gave their life for their country.

Dmighty I said in my topic that this is about ALL the fallen and not specific, I don't care who you think the heroes or the enemies were, a fallen soldier is a fallen soldier.

military service, but i havent given the ultimate sacrifce.

I think these days, people just see soldiers as murderers and henchmen of their governments.

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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM

In before Jessica Lynch

The media worked the other way too though for the sake of good ol' fashioned Propoganda

but there were also huge protests AGAINST continued involvement. If I remember correctly, some of the biggest protests ever (including in the UK) on Feb. 15 in 2003......which I remember because I went to a big one in Toronto (i'd just turned 18 so apparently my opinion mattered haha).

the trouble of course was with the way the media is now controlled- either by corporate or political interests. So while there were big protests, created by some of the good media reports coming out at the time, they were covered in an incredibly unbalanced way (but than again, political dissonance has been covered oddly in the West ever since the anti-globalization stuff in Seattle and Quebec City). And stations and newspapers radically edited what they could and would show- on one hand, 'if it bleeds it leads', and people are so desensatized to violence now that you need huge gore to get attention, but on the other there were limits drawn pretty clearly after Sept. 11 (remember those shots of people jumping from teh building? yeah, that sort of put the kybosh on journalists publishing wahtever they pleased). i remember in Canada not being able to show images of bodies coming off planes when soliders returned to the country- officially it was for the protection and respect of the families, but also? It meant no one had to see lines of body bags, which never go over well on the nightly news.

followed of course by public 'war-fatigue'- that thing where theyv'e seen so much violence, so many stats, so much poverty porn, that they just shut down and flip to the simpsons.

You can't teach experience...

Was the same in the UK aswell, Support the boys, you might not want them there, but they sure as hell don't want to be there.

As we've seen with the Iraq conflict, the media can play a major role..

Whilst many did not agree with the "war / conflict", once the troops were deployed, patriotism took over and they were supported.. Especially in the USA.

Totally agree qwerty.

My only argument is that we have to many TV channels to choose from.

"Today 300 soldiers was killed in fresh blasts"

"Click"

"Welcome to another exciting edition of Wheel of Fortune"

that's what Vietnam changed I think- before that you didn't really have to separate supporting the war and supporting the soliders. Vietnam changed it in that suddenly, people started thinking the best way to support the soliders is NOT to send them over there in teh first place...that now you can be patriotic and disagree completly with what your country is doing or muddling in....

granted I still think the WW1 and WW11 generations weren't quite as universally government-wow as we generally think; the number of anti-conscription riots (hello Quebec!) prove that.

When you see the veterans , some in their 80's / 90's walk with pride with medals on their chests, it brings out a sense of pride.

are we talking here of all fallen soldiers on either sides. Because each sides will have their own heroes and villains. It depends on which side you are. Of course, it's a different story if we talked about the obvious masterminds of genocide or of same kind.

Yes, I agree we should remember all fallen soldiers whatever side they have taken. In the first place, they are just numbers of crazy leaders!

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

Hmmm, My experience with vetrens is that, while they may not agree with the cause of the war, once a country is involved in one they support the soldiers 100%. A lot of people can't separate supporting the soldier from supporting the war.

The WWII generation also are very patriotic (of course) and they generally have faith in whatever their government chooses to do.

Gypsy- yeah i think it was, but in a lot of ceremonies and areas, Remembrance day can and is used as sort of a call-to-further-conflict. It's the whole glorification of war, finding national pride in how much blood we can spill, that drives me nuts. that's not the point, and I honestly don't know many veterns who agree with the political spin so often put on it.

Well there was Shell Shock, that generation was very different. Post-traumatic stress was ignored and hidden, so while a lot of kids grew up with fathers who were drunk or abusive or suffered from other results of shell shock, they didn't know that that's what caused it. So it's a bit different.

Gypsy's Uncle was in Rwenda with UN forces under General Delmare when the Rwendan Genocide happened :(

Ban Spoon Feeding not Me

Agreed. Read a few books on the great wars and the trauma suffered by soldiers in the trenches and on the beaches.

The Vietnam war was really the turning point. The negativity and the media presence turned the soldiers from heroes to psychos.

For the UK, the Falklands conflict brought back a bit of patriotism.

and actually Samael, i think the shoudl we or shoudln't we waffling is because of a more thourough understand of exactly what conflict entails. Vietnam was splashed across televisions and living rooms in ways no other conflict has been. We tried to push that genie back into the censorship bottle with embedded journalists during Iraq part deux, but you can't.

so while a generation hasn't been DIRECTLY exposed to conflict by being shipped off to trenches, i think people have a more thourough understanding that war is not pretty. We've shot the whole notion of glorious battle in the foot, and frankly, I think that's a good thing. the way remembrance day SHOULD (and i think for the most part is) handled, where veterns talk about the realities of war, and we remember exactly how horrific it was, is the way to go.

Wasn't the original point of Remembrance day to pay tribute to those that died so we don't have to in another war?

I think today a lot of people, growing up on waves of antiwar sentiment produced by the fiascos in Vietnam and other conflicts, show a huge lack of respect regarding Remembrance Day. I know many people back home who think we shouldn't have this day at all, as it glorifys war.

And while staunchly antiwar myself, I don't think that's the answer. We can choose not to engage in conflict in the future (and for the love of god we should) but that doesn't mean we should forget the past. So I may not wear the red poppy, but I will wear the white one, commemorating the sacrifices but refusing to use that as a reason or excuse for further conflict.

Well they had Post Traumatic stress back then, but instead of a fancy title it was "Shell Shock". Alot of those poor souls took years and years to get back into society and lead as normal a life as one could after witnessing what had been seen by them.

Puts things into perspective really when our biggest worry these days (for the majority of us) is, Will i get paid on time, will my car break down today? Unfortunately Unity is a dying thing accross the board, the days of Good and Evil are pretty much over, Meaning One part of the world against another, nowadays it's "hmmm maybe we shouldn't be there". Always a Second Guess or a seat on the fence.

Ah well...

***Brain Fart Complete***

I agree Brit. Instead of grandfathers and fathers who fought in World War II, kids today have grandfathers and fathers who fought in Vietnam and Iraq. Guys who come back with Gulf War Syndrome and post-traumatic stress, rather then medals and stories.

Remember the dead but dont forget the living..Wear your poppy with pride..

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HE WHO DARES WINS

Went there on a school trip years ago..Amazing feeling..

I think the sad thing is that "youngsters" today have no real link to the reality and suffering of the great wars.

Also, with the conflicts around the world today, in many cases , soldiers get negative press and are not depicted as heroes amymore.

In Flanders fields the poppies blow

Between the crosses, row on row,

That mark our place; and in the sky

The larks, still bravely singing, fly

Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the dead. Short days ago

We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,

Loved, and were loved, and now we lie

In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:

To you from failing hands we throw

The torch; be yours to hold it high.

If ye break faith with us who die

We shall not sleep, though poppies grow

In Flanders fields.

— Lt.-Col. John McCrae

Did you Google it first?

lol Brit! I had to read through everything twice before I got that one.

Nice post Gypsy. Thank you.

ROFL!!! Way to catch that one Brit!

Treating animals is a noble profession..

However, i do agree that we should always remember those that fought and gave their lives to make this world a better place for us and our loved ones..

"The soldier, above all other people, prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war."

Ode of Remembrance....

They went with songs to the battle, they were young.

Straight of limb, true of eyes, steady and aglow.

They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,

They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:

Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.

At the going down of the sun and in the morning,

We will remember them.

Lest We Forget

"Your born, You Live, You Die, given this premise, one can conclude since we have no control over when we are born and when we die, the only thing that matters to us should be how we live, simple really?" Mis-Cat to her philosophy Lecturer.

Well my grandfather and my uncle are both vets, so I'm thinking of them today. :)

gypsy, that's really nice of you to commemorate the veterans day..

cheers,

paul

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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM

Thanks Gypsy.

Remembering my dad today.