So you want a topic to debate I have one for you,
Should the people of the world decide to eliminate all organized religion as all facts seem to point to organized religion being the cause for so much death and destruction both in the modern and ancient world.
for what reference do you quote that Buddhism as being a non evil religion, to my knowledge Buddhism teaches enlightenment through self sacrifice and suffering. All religion has a degree of prejudice against non beleiver's. Depending on what religion depends on the degree of prejudice, it also depends on the teaching, with point to reference resently a family member staying with musilim friends over night during this month of ramadan was asked by her hosts what she would like cooked for breakfast in the morning, the family member told them that they didnt have to cook anything as she relised that the hosts family will be fasting and out of respect would fast as well. the reply was simple, "Being muslim does not mean that we are unable to prepare food for our non muslim guest in fact it is better credit for us if we offer the hospitality and resist the temptation as it truley shows how strong we are within our faith." it has always been a philosophy of mine that religion is only the teaching, Faith is something that truly comes from within and something that can be practised without religion.
I don't know enough about Buddhism to comment, but if you think the bible is prejudiced (and i'm not saying it's not)....you would faint if you read the torah (or at least the exerpts I have read).
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Why blame religions, it is just Christianity that is the source of all evils, the world didn't suffer from Buddhism or Judaism...Just the Christianity is the religion that brought all the prejudice and hatred to the world....
"What makes you different can make all the difference in the World"
Sorry that you are still confused and not clear on the meaning. Let me adopt a simple technique to explain this to you. Try the following excericse and you might understand it better.
First - can you take a long thread hold it at the end of your ribs - now take this thread and connect it to your back/ end of spinal cord by taking it between your legs and then up to your back / end of your spinal cord.
The verse that you have questionned simply states that " sperm comes from a place within this region that you have identified in the excercise above. Now the sexual organs of a Man falls in this area - and this is what it refers to. The word used is emmitted/ released - NOT CREATED - hence has nothing to do with the KIDNEY you are talking about. There is no mention of KIDNEY any where. That was a meaning that you chose to believe to suit your argument - but it just does not fit into the actual meaning of the verse.
And again - who said this was a scientific fact? This verse simply states an obvious fact that people knew way before Prophet Muhammed revealed this verse. As I stated in my earlier post - this particular verse is in reply to questions from non believers about how God can resurrect man kind after their death. I dont want to repeat myself - if you read my post more carefully - you would understand the context and actual meaning.
Let me clarify some thing once again - Quran does not teach science. Instead it talks about signs and these signs have turned out to compliment scientific facts and each of these signs are compatible with the latest discoveries of the 21st century.
You wanted examples of these miracles.. actually plenty of them..and I could go on and on all night about it.. But have got a few engagements tonight - shall explain that to you tommorow - if you have the patience.. and are keen on this discussion - I sure am enjoyin it.
But to satisfy your curiosity - you can visit this website
http://www.irf.net/irf/drzakirnaik/index.htm
And there is a link " Quran and Modern Science - Compatible or InCompatible". It covers more than enough examples to answer your question. Hope that helps. Feel free to challenge me as much as U want. And dont worry - I have not forgotten your other challenges above - Mate - I need time and thats one thing I am short off.. so shall do it piece by piece. But shall clarify each and every single point. Gotta go off now.. tata..see U tommorow :-)
AR.
"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!
"Aint that a beauty in itself? 1400 yrs back – people could understand its reference and it made sense.."
I used all the correct terminology and that explanation of yours is as about clear as mud. Therefore its not a scientific explanation or fact. If you claim that these are in fact signs then Islamic scholars should desist claiming that the Quran contains proven scientific facts.
"you would find it quite strange that all the references used in Quran – Science has only proven them true now and till date nothing has been proven otherwise."
I need to know which ones you are referring to.
Peace
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
Hi Adey – sorry for the late response. Was busy with prayers as these are the most important nights of Ramadan.
Saw ur posts – interesting points. Let me answer you point by point so that your confusions are cleared... Now this may take a bit long.. so sit back and hold on to your seats.. and start.. so that your back wont hurt :-)
Now – as I mentioned in my earlier posts – let me restate – any time and every time when any one quotes from Quran – it is very essential that we understand certain basic things or else one might end up in the confusion like the one you have ended up in. So these are simply as follows: -
1. Understand the context in which the verse was reveled and to whom.
2. The Arabic language used in Quran is of the most purest and noble form and till date even the unbiased scholars in Arabic language irrespective of their religion admit that its one of the best literary works ever. Now to translate the Quran into other languages is not that easy as it sounds.. it’s a complicated one as it is very difficult to find the exact words to match to meet the literary quality seen in Quran. A simple example – the Word Allah – is generally translated as GOD. But in fact the word GOD alone is not a complete translation of the world ALLAH as it is ONLY a part of the translation and Allah means a lot more. I don’t want to deviate from the topic – but just citing an example as these would come very important in my answers below. Linguists would explain that the language ARABIC in general is a very rich language and to translate some words it might take sentences or phrases. Also the verses in Quran have a poetic touch to it and hence has to be understood at the level. For example if you take works of Shakespeare or William Blake or Keats and try to take the LITERAL meaning of it – one would not get much out of it. The person has to take an educated approach to understand it.
3. Adey, Quran is NOT a book of SCIENCE, instead it’s a book of SIGNS. You really need to understand that there is a huge difference in these two. This is to say that there is not a single instance in the Qur'an where it has unfolded any information about the physical (or biological or embryological) world, just for the sake of giving information to its addressees, as a book of science, generally, does. Quran does not intend to teach Mankind on laws of this physical world and does not intend to bring in any new theories in SCIENCE to enlighten mankind. Instead it’s a book of signs which uses references to creation of Allah which are scientifically correct to prove a point/ argument in theology or laws set forth by Quran. But the challenge is that one cannot find any such sign UNSCIENTIFIC and hence stands the test of time. Obviously this is where U disagree with and have raised your points.
4. Keeping the above points in perspective, most of the physical laws referred to by the Qur'an are such, which were generally, known by the Arabs of the times of the Prophet (pbuh). We know that a supportive argument is likely to be more effective only when it is mutually known as well as agreed upon by the speaker and the addressee. Something, which is not known (at least vaguely) by the addressee or not believed or agreed by him, is less likely to be effective as a supportive argument. It is important to remember that the statements entailing any reference to physical (or scientific) facts in the Qur'an are generally, not mere 'information statements'. On the contrary, they are 'premise statements'. This fact makes it all the more likely that the physical (or scientific) facts referred to by the Qur'an in these statements were generally known and adhered to by the addressees of the Qur'an.
Ok.. with these background info – lets start with your first argument – and that is referring to verses from Surah At Tariq. As I mentioned in my previous posting – lets go a bit before and after the particular verse and understand it better
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[86:1]
By the Sky and the Night-Visitant (therein);-
[86:2]
And what will explain to thee what the Night-Visitant is?-
[86:3]
(It is) the Star of piercing brightness;-
[86:4]
There is no soul but has a protector over it.
[86:5]
Now let man but think from what he is created!
[86:6]
He is created from a drop emitted-
[86:7]
Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
[86:8]
Surely (God) is able to bring him back (to life)!
[86:9]
The Day that (all) things secret will be tested,
[86:10]
(Man) will have no power, and no helper.
[86:11]
By the Firmament which returns (in its round),
Lets go a bit deeper into the actual verse itself and see..the verse that you are referring to goes like this -
[86:6]
He is created from a drop emitted-
[86:7]
Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
The word used for back bone and ribs is ‘SSulb’ and ‘ Tharaib’. And the word used for Emitted is ‘Dafiq’. Now – on a more analytical mode – the word here used in Arabic refers to Lower back bone and lower ribs. And it does not say CREATED – but infact says emitted or released or discharged.
If we were to join the sulb (i.e. the back) and the taraayib (i.e. the ribs), by means of an external line, it would pass through our lower abdomen, to our hips, to the testes, to the sex organ on to our groin, and then join our ribs. The line would roughly look like a curve . Obviously, the ultimate point of emanation of the male sperm lies within the points . This, in my opinion, is what the statement "Yakhrujo min bayen al-Sulb Wa al-Taraayib" (i.e. 'which emanates from a place between the back and the ribs') means. The meaning and the implication of the verse, as well as the message entailed in it, was as clear to the unlettered Arabs as it is for the scientists of the modern day. Adey - Aint that a beauty in itself? 1400 yrs back – people could understand its reference and it made sense.. and so does it today also in the 21st century! If seen in the light of this explanation, it would be clear that the verse does not refer to any scientific reality, but to an obvious physical reality. Thus, the very objection of a scientific error, in this case, is misplaced
The reference here is to the sexual organs of man. But since Quran is a Holy book it does not use derogratory words and with its high literary levels use a more beautiful and poetic approach to it. So is actually referring to the semen coming out from sexual organs of a man – but in a much more elegant manner.
Lets look now at the context in which it was revelaed - Actually – whats happening here is that Qur'an is , generally, responding to this doubt expressed by the rejecters, regarding the possibility of the Day of Judgment, in such a way that it not only answers the question regarding the possibility of resurrection but also entails an eloquent ridicule on the arrogance of the rejecters in turning away from the call of the Prophet (pbuh). In this response, the Qur'an has pointed out the fact that if it was possible for God to create man from a drop of emitted fluid, then why would it suddenly become difficult for Him to recreate man after his death? In this response of the Qur'an, man is also reminded of the fact that he did not originate from a material of high rank and grandeur but from a drop of 'despicable' fluid, a drop of 'semen' and a drop of 'sperm'. Arrogance and haughtiness do not suit a creation that has actually originated from such lowly and despicable material. He is asked to be more humble :-)
Yes you are very correct that Aristotle and many of the Greek theories like semen being created from the kidney is and was wrong. And you have just proven my point that if Prophet Muhammed was actually copying from them – he would have taken their theories and copy pasted it – but NO. It was not so – the book is indeed a divine revelation and hence it was not USED.
In view of the above explanation, BUT THE POINT TO BE NOTED here is that these were not the only beliefs the Arabs and the rest of the World including the Greeks had that time – they had a lot more other beliefs and THEORIES floating around Many of them were not proved TRUE or UNTRUE in the light of science till recently. They were just ideas or thoughts. But Adey – you would find it quite strange that all the references used in Quran – Science has only proven them true now and till date nothing has been proven otherwise. So lets take your hypotheis as true for ARGUMENT sake – that Prophet Mohammed did borrow these from the Greeks – but where did he get the know-how to select only facts and theories that would be proved right in the 20th and 21st century. Now aint that the miracle? Oh – I almost forgot – I have to prove more of your points ? Hope I have cleared your misconceptions for the first verse.. I need to get back to my prayers.. shall return and answer each of your point one by one…. To be continued… :-)
AR.
"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!
Scientific evidence in the Quran suggests that the moon shines by reflected light, something scholars claim was not known 1400 years ago.
This fact is obvious from the phases of the moon, and was postulated by multiple earlier Greek astronomers, such as Aristarchus, Anaxagoras, and Ptolemy. Some of these Greeks had heliocentric views, some geocentric views, but the consensus among educated astronomers since about 200 BC has been that the moon shines by light reflected from the sun. It was not new with the Quran.
Secondly, the Quran suggests the earth was round. Contrary to myths about Columbus, all educated men of the ancient world knew it to be round, from the Ionian Greeks of the sixth century BC forward.Eratosthenes of Alexandria proved it rather elegantly in the second century BC. Ship navigators from ancient Phoenicia and Tartessos knew it well. Muhammed was a caravan driver, and probably had contact with the ship-borne traders of his era, who undoubtedly knew that the earth was round. However a mistake is clearly shown;The Quran mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse: “And we have made the earth egg shaped”. [Al-Quran 79:30].
The Earth certainly isn't egg shaped. In fact, it is technically the opposite. The Earth is an oblate spheroid and an egg is, roughly, a prolate spheroid.
Thirdly, the Quran says that the universe was once smoke. While one could say that this was a poetic way of describing the cloud of dust and gas that collapsed under gravity to form the solar system, it is far from an obvious allusion to the big bang, and doesn't even well describe the formation of the solar system. Several ancient Greek philosophers tried to identify a first element, a one substance that everything is made from, and a couple of them identified fire, or something halfway between fire and earth, as the likely culprit.
Fourthly, the Quran states that all life came from water. This is also an ancient Greek idea, first put forth by Thales of Miletus around 600 BC. Thales was one of the philosophers mentioned above looking for a first principle or primary element from which the universe was made. His students Anaximander and Anaximenes were among those suggesting fire was a better candidate. Anaximander also was the first to suggest that life evolved, and that humans' ancestors may have been fish with five bones in their fins, which became our five fingers.
These are all ancient Greek ideas, which Muhammed, as a traveler and caravan leader, may have been exposed to in his travels around the ancient middle-east. Learned men all over the ancient known world were familiar with these concepts. It is not surprising that they would end up in a book written around that time.
Muhammed was a smart man for his time, but he didn't appear to know anything which was truly original, and which clearly was revealed to him by an all-knowing God, which he could not have just as easily gotten from some secular, scientific source of his day.
More quotes directly from the Quran can be found here:
Indeed, the Quran is closer to science than the bible as it borrowed heavily from the Greeks and Romans which the bible did not. Now you have to prove all scientific 'facts' as correct for all time to claim that the Quara was divinely inspired or justify the inaccuracies. One wrong fact, and the divine revelation theory begins to crumble; and I've shown you 5 or 6 straight off the top of my head.
Peace
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
The entire study of human life as mentioned in the Quran is not original at all. While Muslims try to claim that Muhammad made these statements before scientists discovered them, they are wrong. Theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Quran was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Quran, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more. Every mention of human development in the Quran is similar to Roman and Greek theories. Consider the following verse referring to sperm:
He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Quran 86:6-7)
Clearly this verse is incorrect, and clearly it has origins in earlier theories. First of all, for sperm to originate between the back and the ribs would mean that it comes from the kidneys! We now know that semen is produced in the testicles, but people in Muhammad's time did not know this. Eleven centuries before Muhammad, the Greek physician Hippocrates theorized that sperm passed through the kidneys into the penis. For centuries this was an accepted (and incorrect) belief of the origins of sperm.
The verses in the Quran that spoke of the development of an unborn child, I will say they too are incorrect. The Quran stated that the blood clot was turned to bone and then God "clothed the bones with flesh" (Quran 23:13-14). It is scientific fact that living tissue forms first, and then bones grow at a later time, and continue to gain strength (by building calcium) for many years after birth. Therefore, this is one of many scientific inaccuracies in the Quran.
On the cosmos:
Verse 41:12 describes in no uncertain terms the last two days of the six days of creation, since it says in these two days creation was "completed," yet it is only then that stars, the "lamps," adorn the sky. This completely reverses scientific reality: earth could not possibly have existed before stars adorned the sky--no planet could. We know that as a matter of firmly-established fact: for only stars can produce the heavy elements of which planets like the earth are made. Yet the Quran says, with no ambiguity and beyond any shadow of a doubt, that stars appear in heaven after the earth. Any book that says that is simply wrong, and certainly not supernaturally inspired.
These are the two of the most glaring scientific falsehoods in the Quran and there are many others where Islamic scholars try and jiggle verses to fit new scientific discoveries. We have also the whole argument over the 'Big Bang' and gases or is it smoke?, hot or cold? Allah using stars to shoot at the Jinn- stars don't fly, what we we now know as meteorites(shooting stars) aren't stars.
I could go on at great length but you get my point.
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
Adey - dont worry - I am not going to loose my cool because you are questioning my faith or its authenticity.. :-) Instead I welcome it.. U see the more people challenge me.. I get more stronger in my faith! Simply because I get to learn more about it.. by understanding ur point of view and reasoning with you..
Now - on the unscientific facts in Quran - you will have to get used to some thing - we dont talk with out facts. So pls bring your proof to your statement that there are facts in Quran that is unscientific and then i shall answer to them. Till date - as far as I know - NO ONE has been able to prove ANY thing unscientific in QURAN. Now you may consider me or likes of me to be BLIND. So - here is ur chance to prove yourself - show me the facts! show me the proof.. :-) and to add to it.. i can list for you the numerous scientific facts mentioned in the QURAN many of which were discovered as FACTS only in recent past some even as late as mid or late 20th century.
On ur next note of the comment of another QL member stating that he is fasting out of fear - well what can I say Adey - I keep repeating myself - a viewer who is not viewing the movie properly. To clarify - JUST because one does not fast - he/she does not go to HELL. There are a variety of reasons that can lead a person endin up in hell. I can justify another individuals comment or belief as it is subjective. Instead I can justify Islam as it is OBJECTIVE. Lets talk about the movie not the viewers ;-) as each viewer has their own opinions and views.
Quran does not use scare tactis to get people to follow the faith - it explains the benifits of following and at the same time warns the dangers of not following the word of GOD. Now - its upto the people to decide what they want to do. They are free to do so. Dont U think its logical and reasonable for GOD to warn people of the danger of not following the word of GOD. Would you not find it illogical if he does not do it? I do!
I agree with you - RELIGIONS should be open to questioning and cross questioning. Infact Quran encourages US to do so constantly. Where we are learn more about science, history, politics and then understand and learn QURAN as it would more relevance at that point of time. And there is an open challenge to man kind of all times which has yet to be broken! I am quoting the Holy Quran for you.. so here it goes..
Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]
And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]
And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).
Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]
Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]
Now - I gotta go - go for Qiyyam Layyil prayers as these are the last 10 days of ramadan and one of these nights is the blessed night in which if we pray in the night - its equivalent to a 1000 nights! :-) no scare tactics involved in this.. not gonna go to hell if I dont do it! Instead I get a better place in heaven if I do better deeds in this world! that is if I make it to Heaven! :))
So adios for tonight - catch up with you tommorow- gooooooooooooooooood night! :-)
"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!
Thanks for replying in a cultured way and ,yes you are right , we come to these questions from vastly different poles. Please dont think I'm 'bashing' Islam, I'm just questioning the validity of sacred texts of all religions but as you talk about the Quran then I will stick to this text.
I think it has been comprehensively proven (by science itself) that the so called 'scientific facts' in the Quran, of which most were known 1000 yrs or more before the Quran, are in a some cases false. This is used to 'prove' the Quran is correct, if you believe (self-fulfilling belief) it it must be true, unfortunately it's not true. Therefore its not the word of god but of a society of its time.
These sacred texts, including the Quran, can still teach us a lot and if people live their lives in belief, do no harm and don't scare, curtail or indoctrinate others then I see no harm in religion of any sort.
However, as an entity organised religion does use scare tactics to indoctrinate(only 2 days ago someone I know admitted they had no choice but to fast because they didn't want to go to hell!), it vilifies people not of that faith and as such curtails our human spirit and freedoms.
Now I know that you take a different view and I'm just trying to express where my beliefs (or I should say non-belief) stem from and where they lead me to. Once out of the religious mind-set/ brain-washing/indoctrination I can think clearly and rationally and have no fear of eternal punishment because it doesn't exist. It is harder to live a good life without a god? Maybe, maybe not. Camus's 'The Plague' deals with this problem, once you realise this is it, there is nothing else, it focuses you mind as to what life is for - the answer? To help where you can, do no harm and empathise. Grown-ups do this, its only children that have to be told, chastised and threatened. If that's what some people need to live a good life then so be it but don't foister it upon others telling them its the holy law, gods word or some such other device to make them obey (I don't mean you personally).
All religions should be open to questioning and should stay with personal belief and not stray into politics, law, thought control, guilt, social control, the state etc.
hope you can see where I'm coming from, and I have the same views on christianity and judaism. Dont know enough about other religions to comment effectively as they are way outside my cultural norms.
Peace
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
well - since Islam does justify self defense and if thats what you were referring to by "JUSTIFIES Violence". Then I rest my case. The statement Justifies violence has a strange tone to it - which sort of took me back. I still dont agree with the usage.. but from the LITERAL stand point - you are right. :-)
Now - to your second part of the comment on the authenticity of these books - well - I have my own beliefs - so do you and obviously we aint gonna agree on this! And this is actually gonna kick start a totally different debate - but to answer your comment - if you read Quran - it is easy to understand. But what you need to realize is that this is a book that was revealed 14 centuries back and till date not a single word has been altered, edited or revised and the Quran itself speaks of the promise of Allah that the genuineness of the book will be retained till the end of the world. Now this book is meant for men and women of all times till the end of the world. For the past 14 centuries it has given guidance to the mankind and it still does it even today. And bear in mind - that people of each phase of this period have found it relevant and upto date. Now - for the people who never believed it - they have always had their reasons through out the time. No one is forcing any one to accept or believe in this way of life - but if some one wants to believe in it - he/she is expected to LEARN it properly and not half. Now the critics can always pick one or two verses from here and there and justify their agenda. But for some one who is interested to learn and know the truth they would go into the details and then decide for themselves. But I find it perfectly normal that while reading a book - what ever book it may be - to understand a bit about the author his background and some general facts.. it gives us a much better perspective about the book. Lets say we are listening to a TALK or a lecture - again the same applies - we get a much better understanding when we understand the background and then analyse the statements.
Its like - if you want to judge the character of a person - a person can do a proper reserach and make their decision - or take the easier approach - listen to rumours and gossips and then decide. The first one is definetly more time consuming and consumes more energy - the latter - is quite easy. Well sadly- these days - most people prefer the latter.
Its like walking into a movie and trying to understand the movie by taking a few dialouges of the movie! If one does it and gets it all wrong - DONT blame the movie or the director!! :-) Its the viewer who should be blamed..
The Book is not fallible - its some of the people who read it that is fallible and murky! :-)
People see what they want to see... they hear what they want to hear... believe what they want to. They need not be the truth or the real facts. Truth - does not come easy - one needs to make an effort to know it!
Voila.. over to you..
AR.
"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!
I know that Islam does not preach violence the same as Christianity or Judaism does not per say preach violence.
I responded to Knoxcollege saying that NO religion JUSTIFIES violence, which is not true; as self defence is a justification for violence and killing.
I will find you a disturbing quote from a muslim believing that Islam is not a religion of peace, I know he is mistaken but it does reflect how dangerous religion can be:
"One Muslim extremist of the Islamic Liberation party reminded his interlocutors just before the scheduled opening of the party's international rally in London in August, 1994, that 'there are 123 verses in the Quran about killing and fighting.' And he added, quite unnecessarily, 'Ours is not a passive religion.' Quoted from Fregosi, P. (1998, p.18).
I have witnessed these 'muslims' myself in debate, in London, state the same as above.
As an aside, there is a whole industry of interpreting religious texts of all religions(ie the WORD of god), don't you think god should have made it easy and abundantly clear for all to follow? Seems to me the texts remain obscure because they were written by fallible humans and their very 'murkiness' keeps the power of thought and actions very much in the priestly/scholarly/rabbinical classes hands.
Over to you :)
Peace
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
Its not only the above verses you have quoted - there are plenty more similar ones. What you need to understand is While interpreting a certain verse of the Glorious Qur'aan, One should understand some of the preceding and following verses as well. One should also learn the historical context and situation in which that verse was revealed and you would notice that trying to understand certain verses by picking them at random and separating them from their historical and social context can convey a far-fetched or inaccurate meaning. Its like if you take one or two sentences from a one hour long conversation - you can always twist it the way you want it. And this is exactly what people who preach violence and who preach hatred towards Islam do.
Dont worry - I am not blaming you that you are preaching hatred towards Islam. This is the trend in general and the verses you have quoted are some of the most commonly quoted ones for this hate campaign. One search on the google and U would see a lot more of similar types!
Some of the verses you have quoted are from verses that was revealed to soldiers in the battle field. Another one is the punishment for Treason. To give a simple illustration - take the very verse before the one you quoted from Surah Maidah - 5:33 that is 5:32 and it goes like this : -
" On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if h e saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land." Quran 5:32
Isnt it totally contradictory to the message one would understand from reading purely the verse in your posting. But this is the very verse that precedes the one you quoted. Actually you need to read from the beginning of this Chapter and few more verses further than 33 to get the full picture.
Sorry - I have to disagree with you on the fact that Islam preaches Violence. At the same time - Islam preaches tolerance however when under attack - it does permit its followers to defend themselves.
So my point is - ITS NOT THE RELIGION to be blamed - its the followers who misuse it to their own advantage.
AR.
________________________________________
"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!
no passports, no racism, no elitism. Sounds great to me. I am all in favor of people following their own beliefs in God but I have never come across a religion that by definition is not elitist, divisive and superior. The more devout people are the more easily swayed by "devout" leaders they are likely to become. Remember the crusaders, the Spanish Inquisition, the Taliban. They all claimed to be devout followers of the one true faith and they were all murderers of the most foul order.
Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary. Mahatma Gandhi
It is a sad fact that the people who are more RELIGIOUS tend to be indifferent of other's rights. They believe that as they are fulfiling their duties towards God, they would be pardoned. They treat other inhumanely. I had a friend who was very religious and he would preach islam to the non-muslims but when it came to his reponsibilities towards other fellow beings, he would deny them. In the West people dont follow the religion very strictly (you can disagree if you want) but at least the Western people believe in the equality of other human beings. There the workers/labourers are respected even the cleaners. But in the middle east where there are more than 95% muslims do we see this kind of treatment given to the unfortunate ones??
That was a response to Knoxcollege that NO religion JUSTIFIES violence
Just a few examples where violence is justified in religious texts:
The Quran:
"The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" (Sura Al Ma idah 5:33).
"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." (Sura AL-BAQARA 2:16) The Quran
I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, maim them in every limb. Q. 8:12
From the bible:
"As soon as Jehu had finished sacrificing the burnt offering, he commanded his guards and officers, "Go in and kill all of them. Don't let a single one escape!" So they killed them all with their swords, and the guards and officers dragged their bodies outside. Then Jehu's men went into the fortress of the temple of Baal. They dragged out the sacred pillar used in the worship of Baal and destroyed it. They broke down the sacred pillar of Baal and wrecked the temple of Baal, converting it into a public toilet. That is what it is used for to this day." 2 Kings 10:18-27 NLT
"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB
In that day those the LORD has slaughtered will fill the earth from one end to the other. No one will mourn for them or gather up their bodies to bury them. They will be scattered like dung on the ground. (Jeremiah 25:33 NLT)
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
Adey - could you pls quote the reference in Quran where you have read killing is justified?
Life without religion - would be a shallow and orderless one!
Like many others have pointed out - dont blame the religion for all this - blame the people who take advantage of it and misuse their positions.
Imagine - just because we have accidents every day on the road - some one comes up with the idea - lets ban all cars and vehicles on the road!! Wow - that would be fun :-))
AR.
"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!
perhaps we should also remove borders, nationalities, passports, etc. so that we can all become one. plausible,but unfortunately impossible as of now. perhaps, if we can unlearn such insignificant ideologies and intermarry a trillion times over so that the world becomes one uniform race then yes perhaps. :-)
he gave nothing much about religion. he killed jews because they were destroying his country and ruining the lives of his countrymen, or so he believed. he killed other because of his ideas of racial purity (an idea which was not his own.
For your question, I strongly disagree “that organized religion being the cause for so much death and destruction both in the modern and ancient world.”
But it’s the corrupt and greedy people behind those organized religions should be punished and get eliminated. Those people who had lead the religion so bad and misguided their people for their own benefits and for their very own convenient.
I am not losing my religion but I know religion will not save me but my faith!
Cheers!
*** I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell - you see, I have friends in both places. M. Twain***
Hitler didnt just kill jews, he killed gays, lesbians, blacks, browns, yellows almost everyone that he thought were of impure breed (No offence meants to blacks, browns, yellows or to gays, I myself am beige)
U cannot remove religion from this world but u certainly can discuss removing fanatism and fighting for religion.
Religion is a very personal thing of any human being and trying to even removing it is furtile.
Do not interfere in any other religion nither try imposing your religion on any one else (until specifically asked) and the world will be a beautiful place to live in. Y need to go to HEAVEN then..
It is not the religion or the religions that are evil. It is the people who use and misinterpret religion for their materialistic causes. No religion justifies killing or destruction. It is the people who use religion to justify the massacres. If there was no religion, more people would be killed, and there would be more HOLOCAUSTS. Hitler didnt use religion and many others like him came up with lame and unjustifiable excuses for their holocausts....(To be continued)
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for what reference do you quote that Buddhism as being a non evil religion, to my knowledge Buddhism teaches enlightenment through self sacrifice and suffering. All religion has a degree of prejudice against non beleiver's. Depending on what religion depends on the degree of prejudice, it also depends on the teaching, with point to reference resently a family member staying with musilim friends over night during this month of ramadan was asked by her hosts what she would like cooked for breakfast in the morning, the family member told them that they didnt have to cook anything as she relised that the hosts family will be fasting and out of respect would fast as well. the reply was simple, "Being muslim does not mean that we are unable to prepare food for our non muslim guest in fact it is better credit for us if we offer the hospitality and resist the temptation as it truley shows how strong we are within our faith." it has always been a philosophy of mine that religion is only the teaching, Faith is something that truly comes from within and something that can be practised without religion.
I don't know enough about Buddhism to comment, but if you think the bible is prejudiced (and i'm not saying it's not)....you would faint if you read the torah (or at least the exerpts I have read).
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Spent valuable time sleeping, will get back to you sat. night
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
Why blame religions, it is just Christianity that is the source of all evils, the world didn't suffer from Buddhism or Judaism...Just the Christianity is the religion that brought all the prejudice and hatred to the world....
"What makes you different can make all the difference in the World"
Sorry that you are still confused and not clear on the meaning. Let me adopt a simple technique to explain this to you. Try the following excericse and you might understand it better.
First - can you take a long thread hold it at the end of your ribs - now take this thread and connect it to your back/ end of spinal cord by taking it between your legs and then up to your back / end of your spinal cord.
The verse that you have questionned simply states that " sperm comes from a place within this region that you have identified in the excercise above. Now the sexual organs of a Man falls in this area - and this is what it refers to. The word used is emmitted/ released - NOT CREATED - hence has nothing to do with the KIDNEY you are talking about. There is no mention of KIDNEY any where. That was a meaning that you chose to believe to suit your argument - but it just does not fit into the actual meaning of the verse.
And again - who said this was a scientific fact? This verse simply states an obvious fact that people knew way before Prophet Muhammed revealed this verse. As I stated in my earlier post - this particular verse is in reply to questions from non believers about how God can resurrect man kind after their death. I dont want to repeat myself - if you read my post more carefully - you would understand the context and actual meaning.
Let me clarify some thing once again - Quran does not teach science. Instead it talks about signs and these signs have turned out to compliment scientific facts and each of these signs are compatible with the latest discoveries of the 21st century.
You wanted examples of these miracles.. actually plenty of them..and I could go on and on all night about it.. But have got a few engagements tonight - shall explain that to you tommorow - if you have the patience.. and are keen on this discussion - I sure am enjoyin it.
But to satisfy your curiosity - you can visit this website
http://www.irf.net/irf/drzakirnaik/index.htm
And there is a link " Quran and Modern Science - Compatible or InCompatible". It covers more than enough examples to answer your question. Hope that helps. Feel free to challenge me as much as U want. And dont worry - I have not forgotten your other challenges above - Mate - I need time and thats one thing I am short off.. so shall do it piece by piece. But shall clarify each and every single point. Gotta go off now.. tata..see U tommorow :-)
AR.
"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!
"Aint that a beauty in itself? 1400 yrs back – people could understand its reference and it made sense.."
I used all the correct terminology and that explanation of yours is as about clear as mud. Therefore its not a scientific explanation or fact. If you claim that these are in fact signs then Islamic scholars should desist claiming that the Quran contains proven scientific facts.
"you would find it quite strange that all the references used in Quran – Science has only proven them true now and till date nothing has been proven otherwise."
I need to know which ones you are referring to.
Peace
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
Hi Adey – sorry for the late response. Was busy with prayers as these are the most important nights of Ramadan.
Saw ur posts – interesting points. Let me answer you point by point so that your confusions are cleared... Now this may take a bit long.. so sit back and hold on to your seats.. and start.. so that your back wont hurt :-)
Now – as I mentioned in my earlier posts – let me restate – any time and every time when any one quotes from Quran – it is very essential that we understand certain basic things or else one might end up in the confusion like the one you have ended up in. So these are simply as follows: -
1. Understand the context in which the verse was reveled and to whom.
2. The Arabic language used in Quran is of the most purest and noble form and till date even the unbiased scholars in Arabic language irrespective of their religion admit that its one of the best literary works ever. Now to translate the Quran into other languages is not that easy as it sounds.. it’s a complicated one as it is very difficult to find the exact words to match to meet the literary quality seen in Quran. A simple example – the Word Allah – is generally translated as GOD. But in fact the word GOD alone is not a complete translation of the world ALLAH as it is ONLY a part of the translation and Allah means a lot more. I don’t want to deviate from the topic – but just citing an example as these would come very important in my answers below. Linguists would explain that the language ARABIC in general is a very rich language and to translate some words it might take sentences or phrases. Also the verses in Quran have a poetic touch to it and hence has to be understood at the level. For example if you take works of Shakespeare or William Blake or Keats and try to take the LITERAL meaning of it – one would not get much out of it. The person has to take an educated approach to understand it.
3. Adey, Quran is NOT a book of SCIENCE, instead it’s a book of SIGNS. You really need to understand that there is a huge difference in these two. This is to say that there is not a single instance in the Qur'an where it has unfolded any information about the physical (or biological or embryological) world, just for the sake of giving information to its addressees, as a book of science, generally, does. Quran does not intend to teach Mankind on laws of this physical world and does not intend to bring in any new theories in SCIENCE to enlighten mankind. Instead it’s a book of signs which uses references to creation of Allah which are scientifically correct to prove a point/ argument in theology or laws set forth by Quran. But the challenge is that one cannot find any such sign UNSCIENTIFIC and hence stands the test of time. Obviously this is where U disagree with and have raised your points.
4. Keeping the above points in perspective, most of the physical laws referred to by the Qur'an are such, which were generally, known by the Arabs of the times of the Prophet (pbuh). We know that a supportive argument is likely to be more effective only when it is mutually known as well as agreed upon by the speaker and the addressee. Something, which is not known (at least vaguely) by the addressee or not believed or agreed by him, is less likely to be effective as a supportive argument. It is important to remember that the statements entailing any reference to physical (or scientific) facts in the Qur'an are generally, not mere 'information statements'. On the contrary, they are 'premise statements'. This fact makes it all the more likely that the physical (or scientific) facts referred to by the Qur'an in these statements were generally known and adhered to by the addressees of the Qur'an.
Ok.. with these background info – lets start with your first argument – and that is referring to verses from Surah At Tariq. As I mentioned in my previous posting – lets go a bit before and after the particular verse and understand it better
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[86:1]
By the Sky and the Night-Visitant (therein);-
[86:2]
And what will explain to thee what the Night-Visitant is?-
[86:3]
(It is) the Star of piercing brightness;-
[86:4]
There is no soul but has a protector over it.
[86:5]
Now let man but think from what he is created!
[86:6]
He is created from a drop emitted-
[86:7]
Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
[86:8]
Surely (God) is able to bring him back (to life)!
[86:9]
The Day that (all) things secret will be tested,
[86:10]
(Man) will have no power, and no helper.
[86:11]
By the Firmament which returns (in its round),
Lets go a bit deeper into the actual verse itself and see..the verse that you are referring to goes like this -
[86:6]
He is created from a drop emitted-
[86:7]
Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
The word used for back bone and ribs is ‘SSulb’ and ‘ Tharaib’. And the word used for Emitted is ‘Dafiq’. Now – on a more analytical mode – the word here used in Arabic refers to Lower back bone and lower ribs. And it does not say CREATED – but infact says emitted or released or discharged.
If we were to join the sulb (i.e. the back) and the taraayib (i.e. the ribs), by means of an external line, it would pass through our lower abdomen, to our hips, to the testes, to the sex organ on to our groin, and then join our ribs. The line would roughly look like a curve . Obviously, the ultimate point of emanation of the male sperm lies within the points . This, in my opinion, is what the statement "Yakhrujo min bayen al-Sulb Wa al-Taraayib" (i.e. 'which emanates from a place between the back and the ribs') means. The meaning and the implication of the verse, as well as the message entailed in it, was as clear to the unlettered Arabs as it is for the scientists of the modern day. Adey - Aint that a beauty in itself? 1400 yrs back – people could understand its reference and it made sense.. and so does it today also in the 21st century! If seen in the light of this explanation, it would be clear that the verse does not refer to any scientific reality, but to an obvious physical reality. Thus, the very objection of a scientific error, in this case, is misplaced
The reference here is to the sexual organs of man. But since Quran is a Holy book it does not use derogratory words and with its high literary levels use a more beautiful and poetic approach to it. So is actually referring to the semen coming out from sexual organs of a man – but in a much more elegant manner.
Lets look now at the context in which it was revelaed - Actually – whats happening here is that Qur'an is , generally, responding to this doubt expressed by the rejecters, regarding the possibility of the Day of Judgment, in such a way that it not only answers the question regarding the possibility of resurrection but also entails an eloquent ridicule on the arrogance of the rejecters in turning away from the call of the Prophet (pbuh). In this response, the Qur'an has pointed out the fact that if it was possible for God to create man from a drop of emitted fluid, then why would it suddenly become difficult for Him to recreate man after his death? In this response of the Qur'an, man is also reminded of the fact that he did not originate from a material of high rank and grandeur but from a drop of 'despicable' fluid, a drop of 'semen' and a drop of 'sperm'. Arrogance and haughtiness do not suit a creation that has actually originated from such lowly and despicable material. He is asked to be more humble :-)
Yes you are very correct that Aristotle and many of the Greek theories like semen being created from the kidney is and was wrong. And you have just proven my point that if Prophet Muhammed was actually copying from them – he would have taken their theories and copy pasted it – but NO. It was not so – the book is indeed a divine revelation and hence it was not USED.
In view of the above explanation, BUT THE POINT TO BE NOTED here is that these were not the only beliefs the Arabs and the rest of the World including the Greeks had that time – they had a lot more other beliefs and THEORIES floating around Many of them were not proved TRUE or UNTRUE in the light of science till recently. They were just ideas or thoughts. But Adey – you would find it quite strange that all the references used in Quran – Science has only proven them true now and till date nothing has been proven otherwise. So lets take your hypotheis as true for ARGUMENT sake – that Prophet Mohammed did borrow these from the Greeks – but where did he get the know-how to select only facts and theories that would be proved right in the 20th and 21st century. Now aint that the miracle? Oh – I almost forgot – I have to prove more of your points ? Hope I have cleared your misconceptions for the first verse.. I need to get back to my prayers.. shall return and answer each of your point one by one…. To be continued… :-)
AR.
"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!
Logic from a christian perspective as well as the roots of islam.
A must see, absurd isn't it?
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
Scientific evidence in the Quran suggests that the moon shines by reflected light, something scholars claim was not known 1400 years ago.
This fact is obvious from the phases of the moon, and was postulated by multiple earlier Greek astronomers, such as Aristarchus, Anaxagoras, and Ptolemy. Some of these Greeks had heliocentric views, some geocentric views, but the consensus among educated astronomers since about 200 BC has been that the moon shines by light reflected from the sun. It was not new with the Quran.
Secondly, the Quran suggests the earth was round. Contrary to myths about Columbus, all educated men of the ancient world knew it to be round, from the Ionian Greeks of the sixth century BC forward.Eratosthenes of Alexandria proved it rather elegantly in the second century BC. Ship navigators from ancient Phoenicia and Tartessos knew it well. Muhammed was a caravan driver, and probably had contact with the ship-borne traders of his era, who undoubtedly knew that the earth was round. However a mistake is clearly shown;The Quran mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse: “And we have made the earth egg shaped”. [Al-Quran 79:30].
The Earth certainly isn't egg shaped. In fact, it is technically the opposite. The Earth is an oblate spheroid and an egg is, roughly, a prolate spheroid.
Thirdly, the Quran says that the universe was once smoke. While one could say that this was a poetic way of describing the cloud of dust and gas that collapsed under gravity to form the solar system, it is far from an obvious allusion to the big bang, and doesn't even well describe the formation of the solar system. Several ancient Greek philosophers tried to identify a first element, a one substance that everything is made from, and a couple of them identified fire, or something halfway between fire and earth, as the likely culprit.
Fourthly, the Quran states that all life came from water. This is also an ancient Greek idea, first put forth by Thales of Miletus around 600 BC. Thales was one of the philosophers mentioned above looking for a first principle or primary element from which the universe was made. His students Anaximander and Anaximenes were among those suggesting fire was a better candidate. Anaximander also was the first to suggest that life evolved, and that humans' ancestors may have been fish with five bones in their fins, which became our five fingers.
These are all ancient Greek ideas, which Muhammed, as a traveler and caravan leader, may have been exposed to in his travels around the ancient middle-east. Learned men all over the ancient known world were familiar with these concepts. It is not surprising that they would end up in a book written around that time.
Muhammed was a smart man for his time, but he didn't appear to know anything which was truly original, and which clearly was revealed to him by an all-knowing God, which he could not have just as easily gotten from some secular, scientific source of his day.
More quotes directly from the Quran can be found here:
http://answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv6.html#CH6
Indeed, the Quran is closer to science than the bible as it borrowed heavily from the Greeks and Romans which the bible did not. Now you have to prove all scientific 'facts' as correct for all time to claim that the Quara was divinely inspired or justify the inaccuracies. One wrong fact, and the divine revelation theory begins to crumble; and I've shown you 5 or 6 straight off the top of my head.
Peace
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
On human development:
The entire study of human life as mentioned in the Quran is not original at all. While Muslims try to claim that Muhammad made these statements before scientists discovered them, they are wrong. Theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Quran was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Quran, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more. Every mention of human development in the Quran is similar to Roman and Greek theories. Consider the following verse referring to sperm:
He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Quran 86:6-7)
Clearly this verse is incorrect, and clearly it has origins in earlier theories. First of all, for sperm to originate between the back and the ribs would mean that it comes from the kidneys! We now know that semen is produced in the testicles, but people in Muhammad's time did not know this. Eleven centuries before Muhammad, the Greek physician Hippocrates theorized that sperm passed through the kidneys into the penis. For centuries this was an accepted (and incorrect) belief of the origins of sperm.
The verses in the Quran that spoke of the development of an unborn child, I will say they too are incorrect. The Quran stated that the blood clot was turned to bone and then God "clothed the bones with flesh" (Quran 23:13-14). It is scientific fact that living tissue forms first, and then bones grow at a later time, and continue to gain strength (by building calcium) for many years after birth. Therefore, this is one of many scientific inaccuracies in the Quran.
On the cosmos:
Verse 41:12 describes in no uncertain terms the last two days of the six days of creation, since it says in these two days creation was "completed," yet it is only then that stars, the "lamps," adorn the sky. This completely reverses scientific reality: earth could not possibly have existed before stars adorned the sky--no planet could. We know that as a matter of firmly-established fact: for only stars can produce the heavy elements of which planets like the earth are made. Yet the Quran says, with no ambiguity and beyond any shadow of a doubt, that stars appear in heaven after the earth. Any book that says that is simply wrong, and certainly not supernaturally inspired.
These are the two of the most glaring scientific falsehoods in the Quran and there are many others where Islamic scholars try and jiggle verses to fit new scientific discoveries. We have also the whole argument over the 'Big Bang' and gases or is it smoke?, hot or cold? Allah using stars to shoot at the Jinn- stars don't fly, what we we now know as meteorites(shooting stars) aren't stars.
I could go on at great length but you get my point.
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
Adey - dont worry - I am not going to loose my cool because you are questioning my faith or its authenticity.. :-) Instead I welcome it.. U see the more people challenge me.. I get more stronger in my faith! Simply because I get to learn more about it.. by understanding ur point of view and reasoning with you..
Now - on the unscientific facts in Quran - you will have to get used to some thing - we dont talk with out facts. So pls bring your proof to your statement that there are facts in Quran that is unscientific and then i shall answer to them. Till date - as far as I know - NO ONE has been able to prove ANY thing unscientific in QURAN. Now you may consider me or likes of me to be BLIND. So - here is ur chance to prove yourself - show me the facts! show me the proof.. :-) and to add to it.. i can list for you the numerous scientific facts mentioned in the QURAN many of which were discovered as FACTS only in recent past some even as late as mid or late 20th century.
On ur next note of the comment of another QL member stating that he is fasting out of fear - well what can I say Adey - I keep repeating myself - a viewer who is not viewing the movie properly. To clarify - JUST because one does not fast - he/she does not go to HELL. There are a variety of reasons that can lead a person endin up in hell. I can justify another individuals comment or belief as it is subjective. Instead I can justify Islam as it is OBJECTIVE. Lets talk about the movie not the viewers ;-) as each viewer has their own opinions and views.
Quran does not use scare tactis to get people to follow the faith - it explains the benifits of following and at the same time warns the dangers of not following the word of GOD. Now - its upto the people to decide what they want to do. They are free to do so. Dont U think its logical and reasonable for GOD to warn people of the danger of not following the word of GOD. Would you not find it illogical if he does not do it? I do!
I agree with you - RELIGIONS should be open to questioning and cross questioning. Infact Quran encourages US to do so constantly. Where we are learn more about science, history, politics and then understand and learn QURAN as it would more relevance at that point of time. And there is an open challenge to man kind of all times which has yet to be broken! I am quoting the Holy Quran for you.. so here it goes..
Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]
And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]
And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).
Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]
Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]
Now - I gotta go - go for Qiyyam Layyil prayers as these are the last 10 days of ramadan and one of these nights is the blessed night in which if we pray in the night - its equivalent to a 1000 nights! :-) no scare tactics involved in this.. not gonna go to hell if I dont do it! Instead I get a better place in heaven if I do better deeds in this world! that is if I make it to Heaven! :))
So adios for tonight - catch up with you tommorow- gooooooooooooooooood night! :-)
"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!
Thanks for replying in a cultured way and ,yes you are right , we come to these questions from vastly different poles. Please dont think I'm 'bashing' Islam, I'm just questioning the validity of sacred texts of all religions but as you talk about the Quran then I will stick to this text.
I think it has been comprehensively proven (by science itself) that the so called 'scientific facts' in the Quran, of which most were known 1000 yrs or more before the Quran, are in a some cases false. This is used to 'prove' the Quran is correct, if you believe (self-fulfilling belief) it it must be true, unfortunately it's not true. Therefore its not the word of god but of a society of its time.
These sacred texts, including the Quran, can still teach us a lot and if people live their lives in belief, do no harm and don't scare, curtail or indoctrinate others then I see no harm in religion of any sort.
However, as an entity organised religion does use scare tactics to indoctrinate(only 2 days ago someone I know admitted they had no choice but to fast because they didn't want to go to hell!), it vilifies people not of that faith and as such curtails our human spirit and freedoms.
Now I know that you take a different view and I'm just trying to express where my beliefs (or I should say non-belief) stem from and where they lead me to. Once out of the religious mind-set/ brain-washing/indoctrination I can think clearly and rationally and have no fear of eternal punishment because it doesn't exist. It is harder to live a good life without a god? Maybe, maybe not. Camus's 'The Plague' deals with this problem, once you realise this is it, there is nothing else, it focuses you mind as to what life is for - the answer? To help where you can, do no harm and empathise. Grown-ups do this, its only children that have to be told, chastised and threatened. If that's what some people need to live a good life then so be it but don't foister it upon others telling them its the holy law, gods word or some such other device to make them obey (I don't mean you personally).
All religions should be open to questioning and should stay with personal belief and not stray into politics, law, thought control, guilt, social control, the state etc.
hope you can see where I'm coming from, and I have the same views on christianity and judaism. Dont know enough about other religions to comment effectively as they are way outside my cultural norms.
Peace
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
well - since Islam does justify self defense and if thats what you were referring to by "JUSTIFIES Violence". Then I rest my case. The statement Justifies violence has a strange tone to it - which sort of took me back. I still dont agree with the usage.. but from the LITERAL stand point - you are right. :-)
Now - to your second part of the comment on the authenticity of these books - well - I have my own beliefs - so do you and obviously we aint gonna agree on this! And this is actually gonna kick start a totally different debate - but to answer your comment - if you read Quran - it is easy to understand. But what you need to realize is that this is a book that was revealed 14 centuries back and till date not a single word has been altered, edited or revised and the Quran itself speaks of the promise of Allah that the genuineness of the book will be retained till the end of the world. Now this book is meant for men and women of all times till the end of the world. For the past 14 centuries it has given guidance to the mankind and it still does it even today. And bear in mind - that people of each phase of this period have found it relevant and upto date. Now - for the people who never believed it - they have always had their reasons through out the time. No one is forcing any one to accept or believe in this way of life - but if some one wants to believe in it - he/she is expected to LEARN it properly and not half. Now the critics can always pick one or two verses from here and there and justify their agenda. But for some one who is interested to learn and know the truth they would go into the details and then decide for themselves. But I find it perfectly normal that while reading a book - what ever book it may be - to understand a bit about the author his background and some general facts.. it gives us a much better perspective about the book. Lets say we are listening to a TALK or a lecture - again the same applies - we get a much better understanding when we understand the background and then analyse the statements.
Its like - if you want to judge the character of a person - a person can do a proper reserach and make their decision - or take the easier approach - listen to rumours and gossips and then decide. The first one is definetly more time consuming and consumes more energy - the latter - is quite easy. Well sadly- these days - most people prefer the latter.
Its like walking into a movie and trying to understand the movie by taking a few dialouges of the movie! If one does it and gets it all wrong - DONT blame the movie or the director!! :-) Its the viewer who should be blamed..
The Book is not fallible - its some of the people who read it that is fallible and murky! :-)
People see what they want to see... they hear what they want to hear... believe what they want to. They need not be the truth or the real facts. Truth - does not come easy - one needs to make an effort to know it!
Voila.. over to you..
AR.
"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!
I know that Islam does not preach violence the same as Christianity or Judaism does not per say preach violence.
I responded to Knoxcollege saying that NO religion JUSTIFIES violence, which is not true; as self defence is a justification for violence and killing.
I will find you a disturbing quote from a muslim believing that Islam is not a religion of peace, I know he is mistaken but it does reflect how dangerous religion can be:
"One Muslim extremist of the Islamic Liberation party reminded his interlocutors just before the scheduled opening of the party's international rally in London in August, 1994, that 'there are 123 verses in the Quran about killing and fighting.' And he added, quite unnecessarily, 'Ours is not a passive religion.' Quoted from Fregosi, P. (1998, p.18).
I have witnessed these 'muslims' myself in debate, in London, state the same as above.
As an aside, there is a whole industry of interpreting religious texts of all religions(ie the WORD of god), don't you think god should have made it easy and abundantly clear for all to follow? Seems to me the texts remain obscure because they were written by fallible humans and their very 'murkiness' keeps the power of thought and actions very much in the priestly/scholarly/rabbinical classes hands.
Over to you :)
Peace
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
Adey - you have just proved my earlier point.
Its not only the above verses you have quoted - there are plenty more similar ones. What you need to understand is While interpreting a certain verse of the Glorious Qur'aan, One should understand some of the preceding and following verses as well. One should also learn the historical context and situation in which that verse was revealed and you would notice that trying to understand certain verses by picking them at random and separating them from their historical and social context can convey a far-fetched or inaccurate meaning. Its like if you take one or two sentences from a one hour long conversation - you can always twist it the way you want it. And this is exactly what people who preach violence and who preach hatred towards Islam do.
Dont worry - I am not blaming you that you are preaching hatred towards Islam. This is the trend in general and the verses you have quoted are some of the most commonly quoted ones for this hate campaign. One search on the google and U would see a lot more of similar types!
Some of the verses you have quoted are from verses that was revealed to soldiers in the battle field. Another one is the punishment for Treason. To give a simple illustration - take the very verse before the one you quoted from Surah Maidah - 5:33 that is 5:32 and it goes like this : -
" On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if h e saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land." Quran 5:32
Isnt it totally contradictory to the message one would understand from reading purely the verse in your posting. But this is the very verse that precedes the one you quoted. Actually you need to read from the beginning of this Chapter and few more verses further than 33 to get the full picture.
Sorry - I have to disagree with you on the fact that Islam preaches Violence. At the same time - Islam preaches tolerance however when under attack - it does permit its followers to defend themselves.
So my point is - ITS NOT THE RELIGION to be blamed - its the followers who misuse it to their own advantage.
AR.
________________________________________
"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!
no passports, no racism, no elitism. Sounds great to me. I am all in favor of people following their own beliefs in God but I have never come across a religion that by definition is not elitist, divisive and superior. The more devout people are the more easily swayed by "devout" leaders they are likely to become. Remember the crusaders, the Spanish Inquisition, the Taliban. They all claimed to be devout followers of the one true faith and they were all murderers of the most foul order.
Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary. Mahatma Gandhi
It is a sad fact that the people who are more RELIGIOUS tend to be indifferent of other's rights. They believe that as they are fulfiling their duties towards God, they would be pardoned. They treat other inhumanely. I had a friend who was very religious and he would preach islam to the non-muslims but when it came to his reponsibilities towards other fellow beings, he would deny them. In the West people dont follow the religion very strictly (you can disagree if you want) but at least the Western people believe in the equality of other human beings. There the workers/labourers are respected even the cleaners. But in the middle east where there are more than 95% muslims do we see this kind of treatment given to the unfortunate ones??
(To be continued)
That was a response to Knoxcollege that NO religion JUSTIFIES violence
Just a few examples where violence is justified in religious texts:
The Quran:
"The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" (Sura Al Ma idah 5:33).
"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." (Sura AL-BAQARA 2:16) The Quran
I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, maim them in every limb. Q. 8:12
From the bible:
"As soon as Jehu had finished sacrificing the burnt offering, he commanded his guards and officers, "Go in and kill all of them. Don't let a single one escape!" So they killed them all with their swords, and the guards and officers dragged their bodies outside. Then Jehu's men went into the fortress of the temple of Baal. They dragged out the sacred pillar used in the worship of Baal and destroyed it. They broke down the sacred pillar of Baal and wrecked the temple of Baal, converting it into a public toilet. That is what it is used for to this day." 2 Kings 10:18-27 NLT
"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB
In that day those the LORD has slaughtered will fill the earth from one end to the other. No one will mourn for them or gather up their bodies to bury them. They will be scattered like dung on the ground. (Jeremiah 25:33 NLT)
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
Adey - could you pls quote the reference in Quran where you have read killing is justified?
Life without religion - would be a shallow and orderless one!
Like many others have pointed out - dont blame the religion for all this - blame the people who take advantage of it and misuse their positions.
Imagine - just because we have accidents every day on the road - some one comes up with the idea - lets ban all cars and vehicles on the road!! Wow - that would be fun :-))
AR.
"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!
You need to read the bible and Quran more carefully , both explicitly and clearly state where killing IS justified.
Try and think where someone has killed IN the name of atheism, atheists have killed but not in the cause of non-belief.
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
;o)
If you're looking for a problem, you're probably gonna find one.
of course u r right irrysa...i was just being flippant.
lots of places are great to go as a tourist but to live there...
if you want to do away with organised religion may I suggest a holiday in North Korea?
http://www.koryogroup.com/
sk - yes I knew that fact.
Yeah Oryx, eliminating religion is a pure communistic approach.
But about "wonderful life" in Cuba-well, most of my Cuban friends wouldn't agree that it is so gr8 ;o)
Sure, for tourists it's cool, but to live there....that's a different thing.
About Hitler- it was not about religion. In the camps you'd see different people; but yes, mainly Jews.
How weird anyway, since he had Jews in his own family.
And life without religion, at least to me, would be very poor.
If you're looking for a problem, you're probably gonna find one.
Do not wanna comment about Jews. But there is a lot of stuff written about Hitler.
Do you guys know Hitler has a Jews ansistory and it is history. Maybe his Jew ansistor did some miserable thing and he disliked them.
I think that Karl Marx proposed that in Das Kapital.
And look at the results in Cuba:
good music
good rum
good dancing
lots of fun
and organised religions... well there is a lot of strife in parts of Africa now with fundamental Christian churches making heaps of money.
perhaps we should also remove borders, nationalities, passports, etc. so that we can all become one. plausible,but unfortunately impossible as of now. perhaps, if we can unlearn such insignificant ideologies and intermarry a trillion times over so that the world becomes one uniform race then yes perhaps. :-)
the path of excess leads to the tower of wisdom
he gave nothing much about religion. he killed jews because they were destroying his country and ruining the lives of his countrymen, or so he believed. he killed other because of his ideas of racial purity (an idea which was not his own.
the path of excess leads to the tower of wisdom
For your question, I strongly disagree “that organized religion being the cause for so much death and destruction both in the modern and ancient world.”
But it’s the corrupt and greedy people behind those organized religions should be punished and get eliminated. Those people who had lead the religion so bad and misguided their people for their own benefits and for their very own convenient.
I am not losing my religion but I know religion will not save me but my faith!
Cheers!
*** I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell - you see, I have friends in both places. M. Twain***
Yes but his main beef was with Jews. He also killed Catholics.
"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco
Hitler didnt just kill jews, he killed gays, lesbians, blacks, browns, yellows almost everyone that he thought were of impure breed (No offence meants to blacks, browns, yellows or to gays, I myself am beige)
Hitler blamed the Jews knoxcollege. Most of the people in the concerntration camps where there because of their religion.
"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco
U cannot remove religion from this world but u certainly can discuss removing fanatism and fighting for religion.
Religion is a very personal thing of any human being and trying to even removing it is furtile.
Do not interfere in any other religion nither try imposing your religion on any one else (until specifically asked) and the world will be a beautiful place to live in. Y need to go to HEAVEN then..
LIVE AND LET LIVE
It is not the religion or the religions that are evil. It is the people who use and misinterpret religion for their materialistic causes. No religion justifies killing or destruction. It is the people who use religion to justify the massacres. If there was no religion, more people would be killed, and there would be more HOLOCAUSTS. Hitler didnt use religion and many others like him came up with lame and unjustifiable excuses for their holocausts....(To be continued)
As a heavily bearded German bloke once said, "Religion is the opium of the masses".
It's there to take the pain away. It's a palliative, not a cureative.
And - yes - look at all the evil that has been done / is being done in the name of religion.
I wish they would. Religion is a cancer.
"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco
Utopia! But it'll never happen....90% of the world's population suffers from this affliction and you cannot cure them by force.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?