Does Justice really exist?

YES or NO ??

Just yeaterday I got in a heated argument with a family member over this exact qustion. He is an Athiest and had just had tripple bypass surgery. So I was trying find a way to convince him that God exist and that that is you did not beieve in justice than you have no need to belive in God.

I asked him. Does Justice exist?

He said yes. I said it did not exist here on Earth.

I asked him what justice meant he said it means fairness.

I asked if there was injustice in this world he said yes.

I then asked if "Justice" and "injustice" can exist at the same time, and if Justice means fair than how can "JUSTICE" really exist at all.

This was lost on him.

God is Justice in the truest sense and therefor the only sense.

Without God there is no justice only a mere imitation that ia lacking greatly.

The word should not even be used by mortals for we have no true comprehension of the word.

To seek justice is to seek God.

And to settle for world with no justice is to settle for no God.

It is obvious there is no justice in this earthly world for it has to be fair and accountability or recompence is not fair here.

looks as if though I missed something

This is the 2nd forum which you started & suddenly withdrew in a negative way where you apologize to everybody & start giving advices on how we should live peacefully with each other..etc..etc..etc.

What's wrong Sinned? Are you getting warnings/threats from anyone? You shouldn't be scared. You should be brave enough to say what you think no matter how many people disagreed with you.

Just stand up & say what you want, and remember:

"if they mind, then they don't matter. If they don't mind, they still don't matter"

It's not pink.....it's fuchsia!! besides, I got so much junk in my trunk it don't fit me no more!!! LOL

I thought we agreed you wouldn't wear that flamingo shocking pink thobe again until we meet! ;o)

"Time is the justice that examines all offenders"

It doesn't do me justice AT ALL!! :-P

Havent you heard the news that police in dubai caught some homosexuals and now the gays are being injected with testosterone shots. They think it is a disease that can be cured.

There are people in Qatar who would kill a homosexual and face no consequences. Some think it is morally correct to kill homosexuals as they are corrupting the society.

six years back I was also against gays but now I believe that they have the same right to live as we do. You cannot punish people on the basis of their sexual orientation.

Middle East still has to go a long way before it can call itself a tolerant society

Bad choice of words, my bad...Lets scrap off volatile and change it with adaptable.

Sorry I don´t have much time to type. Lets just say that moral law does not apply equally to everybody! For example, an skimo whose mother is dying, will want to put her out of misery as soon as possible, this is what he would consider morally correct, whilst some other cultures would want to prolong her life for as long as possible despite of the suffering. That´s a silly example, but just to ilustrate that moral is not universal, different cultures have different moral values, moral values change with time too, like maybe fifty years ago homosexuality was highly inmoral in Europe, today, it is inmoral to discriminate against sexual orientations etc... and justice should be adapted best to those values.

As for roman law, I´m speechless. I´m not sure what you mean by "it doesn´t exist". Sure it is no longer applied today...

We hear about justice every day and justice has been served. Personally I dont believe in justice anymore specially after seeing the plight of people in Africa.

is it justice that a kid is born with HIV with no parents to look after him. is it justice that another kid is born with a golden spoon

I had faith in God's justice till the day I volunteered in Africa.

maybe Aisha-Taweela you can guide me to the place where there is real justice. looks as if though God created human beings and then he abandoned us and now there is injustice every where. If there is injustice in a country we blame it to the king But isn't God the king of all kings

"Believe what you see, dont believe what you hear"

You say that justice should be volatile. Volatile according to the dictionary means:evaporating quickly,lively, changing quickly or easily from one mood or interest to another, unstable, liable to erupt into violence. Is this what you want Justice to Be??????

There are 2 kinds of Justice.

One is the Civil justice, and for this is, either the Sharia law (practiced in Islamic countries, or the Napoleononic Law (the basis of law for most other countries)(sorry not the Roman laws you mention. This does not exist!)

Then there is the Moral law. This is what I have been talking about most of the time. When you talk about Moral law, it does not matter which religion you practice! The moral law applies to everybody. And it is the Moral law that everyone should start applying more.

Yes the Quran is maybe vague in giving you information on how to accieve this ideal kind of live. But remember the Quran is the most detailed instruction manual around. And the information is there. But like the manual for your TV, it is sometimes hard to understand and apply. Now remember, Nobody is perfect, but we can all try to reach that or try to get closer to being perfect. And when you try you are a better person than those who do not try at all.

And if all of us who participated in this forum about Justice start being a better person and start influencing the people around you to participate, we can get a "pyramid" going, and a lot of people will become more aware of Justice & how to apply it.

Have a nice day

P.S. Sinned, if you start a serious discussion, why do you not want to have serious answers? Do you just want some empty blabla? Then don't start with these kind of questions.....

Aisha-Taweela

I enjoy reading your points although I don´t particularly agree.

You see, you are speaking from an islamic point of view, and yes, the Quran gives some "instructions" and shows an ideal state (can´t remeber how muslims name this ideal form of society!!!) in which there is only armony, justice and equility.

The problem is that the Quran gives vague instructions as to how to achieve this ideal and, more importantly, how to mantain it pure once it has been achieved thruough the changes of time.

To my opinion, this is an unachievable ideal. An utopia. Something imposible.

When I say that justice shouldn´t be timeless or it should apply differently to different cultures, I am just being realistic. For example, whilst Sharia can be perfectly just in some regions, it wouldn´t be applicable to other parts of the world. Roman law wouldn´t be applicable to today´s time in history and so on. That´s what I meant by saying that justice should be volatile.

just a quote by famous Jacki Chan actor.

smile,

Just wondering What has this got to do with the topic?

A fight is not won by one punch or kick. Either learn to endure or hire a bodyguard. Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash into his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life. Do not be concerned with escaping safely — lay your life before him -

seems as if you got an axe to grind against someone?

thank you for your warm & loving participation....

We always think were we stand , remember..were one big happy family here in Qatar living...this is a forum and dont be serious guys...just give your best shot's !!!! i salute you guy's !!!

Thanks Qatari !!!!

A fight is not won by one punch or kick. Either learn to endure or hire a bodyguard. Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash into his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life. Do not be concerned with escaping safely — lay your life before him -

keep smilling,

i was especially drawn to the part in your post about a lack of religion and justice.

i recently moved to qatar from egypt, and the egyptians certainly are a religious bunch. but as time passed i realized that a significant proportion of them would go pray 5 times a day, fast when required, etc., and then have no problem lying, cheating, playing politics, gossiping, and doing whatever they could to do better for themselves.

i have seen many seemingly devout christians who also don't really believe in justice, despite what they claim.

i don't think society achieves justice when religion becomes ritualized, which seems to be case in many places. justice is achieved when people internalize the values that lead to people respecting other people, regardless of their differences.

and i believe justice exists, but unfortunately it is not uniform and it is certainly not constant.

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

This subject will keep us going for a long time, and has kept others going for even longer.

The reason, in my eyes, that justice seems to be adapted as you mention, Butterfly, to the society or moment it applies. Justice should be applied all the time the same way.

Now, imagine, you buy a new stereo, tv or what ever. The first thing you do when you get it home is after ofcourse unpacking it, look at the instruction book. You want to know how to install it. Right?

But, but ,but. God has given us several "instruction books" as well. The first one were the Tables, via Abraham and with an verbal update via Moses handed to the Jews.The Christian received an other verbal update thru Jesus. Some Popes wrote, many years later, their version of what God's message had been (the Bibel & New Testament). Between Abraham & Mohammed (may peace be upon them)there were many different Profets from different cultures & countries. They all tried to pass on the message from God. The last Profet, Mohammed(PBUH) received an other set of messages from God, that he was supposed to pass on to the people of this world. He realized quickly that this message was garbled and misquoted very quickly. So he decided, while he was alive, to write it down.This is the Quran. So as you can see it is basically everytime the same message. The only one in it's original form is the Quran. That is why this is the most explanatory, cos like in real life. The first instruction manual that came with the first TV is different than the manuals we see today. Today they have much more info. The same goes for the last of God's messages.

So, it does not really matter which religion you follow as long as you worship God alone, and no statues etc.

As long as you live a "good" life, be good, do good have integrity, don't lie, don't cheat etc etc God will love you and reward you.

Reglion is like a way of living according to these rules & instructions. This give us a sense & direction in life.

But as you look around you you can see that religion is not very much present anymore, specially in the Western world. When I was young, we had religious study in school. But now, reglion is banned from State schools in most countries. As the French say - systeme lalique-

So how many people grow up and have grown up without knowing the rules and regulations? Or if they know them, it is not "fashionable" anymore to follow them. Or they forget the basic rule. Life on Earth is like a passage only. But Justice is justice, here on Earth and in the "devine" world. One is carried over to the next.

I am sure that if all of us could convince the rest of the world to look at justice this way, we would have a really good world to live in.

Did I make sense?

Regards

Aisha-Taweela

Are you talking about divine justice? I thought this was about earthy justice, which of course is not ideal or perfec, and it varies depending of the society where it is applied and the moment in time.

I find the term very difficult to define. Let say that I understand justice (or rather law) as a code of conduct that shapes and regulates a society. This code of conduct is versatile and it adapts (or rather it should adapt) to the changes of the society. Sometimes, justice differs from what one may consider morally correct, like with cases of euthanasia or abortion...And sadly, quite often, justice is corrupted and applies differently to individuals. So, there is no perfect justice in earth, yet it is a necesary tool for a society to function.

Hope the above makes sense...

The Christian God says that if you are a christian than you will go to heave as per their Holy Bibble

The Muslim God says that if you are a muslim you will go to heaven as per their Holy Quran

The Hindus say that if you act as the Holy Geeta you will be blessed

The Jews say the same about their Holy Book

Similarly the Buddhist believe in their Buddha

So which book leads us to the heaven?

There are major differences between all religions. Some believe in one God some also believe that the God has a son

so my question is which book would lead to heaven. if you have faith in one religion than as per all the other Holy books you become an infidel in the religions that you dont believe in (correct me if I am wrong)

Thats why I never talk about religion on forum.

My dear friends,

There is only One God. You can call him Allah, God or Yaweeh. He is the same. Even the Hindus& Buddist believe in God (though they do worship also other gods & are not concidered to be religions of the "Book")but they believe also in morality, being good and fair.

The Christian, Muslims and even the Jews worship the same God, but have different ways of interpreting them. That does not mean that God has different standards. It is the people who apply the different standards. And yes, there is Justice in this world. This Justice is applied by the people who live by the way that God likes and are working to "pass the test". However too many people are not concerned by passing the test and believe that the only life they will ever have is here on Earth. That is why they are working so hard on accumulating wealth & power because that is, in their eyes, the most important thing in life. We all know that to accumulate wealth & power is usually done on the back of someone else.... and that means that something unjust has been done. And yes, God will give Justice. But his ways of doing that is misterious and we will only realize later what that Justice was. Remember God will help those who will help themselves. So first help your self and you will get your rewards.

Regards,

Aisha-Taweela

I'm talking about sinned post, of course!

...read Jauntie comment on sinner.

waiting impatiently for your answer

whose post are you talking about?

her post in this thread is also a cut & paste from "Yahoo Answer sites"

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/20302

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/20452

Sinned, i enjoyed reading n'way! Thanks:)

I abstain from religious discussions as I believe that everyone has the right to live with his own free will and do whatever he/she deems right

I am Muslim but I have studied many religions. I was also a Buddhist monk for sometime.

Being a Muslim I believe that justice would be served in this world

First u tell me r u a Muslim or not

Which God are you talking about. It seems every God has different standards for going to heaven

Christian God, Muslim God, Hindu God, Buddhist God etc

And what about justice in this world? What you are saying means that this world is not just. Is that what you are saying. You mean to say that God will not do justice to us in this world?

The subject is Justice. This is something that bothersall of us i.e. the lack of justice and all of us are concerned about it. So, where does justice begin & where does it stop? Looking at some of the answers that are given to this subject I am appalled. Is it "Justice" to answer like this to a perfectly normal subject. Maybe the subject is above your capacity. In that case please refrain from giving an answer cos they are stupid answers and do not do us, who read them, nor you any good.

And yes Justice does exsist. Unfortunately it is not really applicable here but it exsists in Heaven, Jennah, Nirvana or what ever you want to call it. And Yes God is Just and will judge you justly & fairly, but don't forget he is very forgiving so there might be hope for some of you.....

Aisha-Taweela

what subjects are you studying at college?

thnx guys ....

please stop cutting and pasting from the internet.

I just copied some of your 'quotations' to Google and you are simply lifting other peoples words of wisdom. Nothing wrong with that in essence, but not continuously ...

It would be ok, if you were actually entering into the conversation, but all you do is 'quote' philosophies at us - it's great to learn stuff from what you are pasting here, but the forum isn't a lecture hall - it's a place for open discussion.

Your thread is taken straight from a philosphy forum!

yah...promise..it will never happen again...

pls forgive me.

Kindly abstain from religious postings as to what you believe in might not acceptable to others

i need to stop now...maybe somebody is angry at me...

im so sory...im afraid now.

Can you elaborate, please?

Sorry I have not much info here as I don't follow a specific religion.

"if they mind, then they don't matter. If they don't mind, they still don't matter"

do i need to stop ??

my apology.

Everyone has his own definition of justice. The justice that is acceptable by you may not hold by you for others

e.g if you work for one month you expect a pay of 10000 supposedly and if a laborer works all day in the open sun for one month you expect to pay him 900 and call it justice.

or a person who puts gas in your car you give him one riyal and call it justice

So my dear QLers when you cannot justify your actions how can you be the judge and the rewarder.

Justice is a very delicate path. Let God be the judge

im so sory if ive said wrong.

politically, ideologically, I am even an atheist! Will God be just when he judges me?

Come on sinned, you started this threat so well. What is all this theology suddenly doing here?

May the roof above us never fall in, and may the friends below never fall out!

and who decides what is justice?

every person has his own definition of justice

Some believe in the capital punishment, some believe in life imprisonment and some believe in giving a second chance

So who is going to judge and who will decide the course of justice?

The IDEA of justice does exist.

It is a concept, an idea, a goal, something to aim for. It is not something palpable, something that actually exists. Having said that,it is a worthy idea and a goal that should be strived for.

Show me a place where justice actually exists and I'll show you Nirvana.

Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary. Mahatma Gandhi

nice mom...very impressive.

At last! Someone who is serious, wise & making sense! You have given me many perspectives to look from.

Thank you very much!

"if they mind, then they don't matter. If they don't mind, they still don't matter"

The question of justice or rather said the lack of justice in our present day goes back a long long way. It goes back to the time that God created Adam & Eve. When God had created Adam & Eve he asked the Angels to bow to Adam & Eve, this being a sign of respect to the human being. All the Angels bowed, i.e. paid respect to the human being, except one. Luficer! She (one refers in the general rule as she for Angels) said to God, "How do you want me to bow to something you just made out of dust & mud. I am made of Fire and do not lower myself to respect something so low". God then said: "The human being deserves respect". Lucifer:" Give me until Judgement day to prove to you that they do not deserve respect" Ofcourse as you maybe realize, Lucifer is in our world known as the Devil. And as the devil has to try his best to keep his "bargain" with God, he tries to lure the good people away. Many people fall for his trap and are unjust, greedy,selfish, commit crimes etc etc the list is long. There are the others that do not fall for his trap and are just, live "good lives", are generous to the poor, are pious etc etc. However these people are not into money, not into public acclaim, not in the foreground. But they are there, living quite lives. Among them there is justice and they practice it. But now a days when you are a "good person" you are being shunned, you do not behave "normal".And their voices are unfortunately not loud.

Nowadays a person is normal and is "heard" when they follow the "rat race" i.e. the way of the devil, love of money, public acclaim, power.

That is why Justice does seem to be gone.

The way of getting Justice back is by actively ignoring the lure of the devil. Be happy with what you have, be generous to others, be honest.... the list is long. And you will get your reward at Judgement day.

Remember, life here on Earth is like sitting for a exam, having to pass a test. If you study, you will pass. If you don't study you will fail. The same applies to Life on Earth. So my dear QL friends, study hard, prove wrong to the devil,help make the world a better place for us, & our children, and you will reap rewards & those rewards are far better than anything you can imagine. A life where justice is present in full force!

Good luck with your "study"

Aisha-Taweela

Justice is not a thing. It is not res- a thing, but a condition, and in a sense is the focus and the form of every relationship. Relationships without justice are not relationships at all. Justice makes relationships possible. The end of injustice is death, and one does not relate to the dead. As long as people are alive to work things out they are not without justice completely. The most just relationship is of love, because in love people give, and live to give more than they take. So it is not itself real, but is an essential quality to all reality because life depends upon it, and it is through life that we know reality....and im sure..we have a better world .

smile,

I think justice should be whatever I say it is. Then the world would be a fair place, well at least to me.

If justice existed would the world be as it is today ?

but it can be warped by the societies that practice it. Just because you don't see justice being carried out in the world, doesn't eliminate the possibility of its existence.

But to me, justice is a very concrete ideal - one that focuses on exacting an equal punishment for an equal crime. Even though this is extremely subjective, I believe that if one can reasonably equate a crime with a punishment through correct logic, then a fair punishment can be exacted. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

all those things that keep the human kind in balance with itself and its environment. This is my definition. Whatever man action, is causing imbalance is not just. Unfortunately there are millions of such actions either small or big. Justice will never prevail. People who believe in life after death can expect a better situation there. I don't, so all my life will be in an unjust world :(

May the roof above us never fall in, and may the friends below never fall out!

[img_assist|nid=22384|title=smile|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=135]

to clear for you my friend , this forum is a nice place for me , i have lots of new friends here which from time to time PM me and im happy to all of you for accepting me here in qatar living. lets keep this site useful /guide and memorable for us to have friends like you even though wer in different places and nationality.

hug for you my friend,

smile,

I think there is some truth in that!

Justice MUST exist somewhere. If not in this life, then there seems to be another life where justice does exist. There could even be a "judgment day" to correct all the injustce of this life.

I always thought that it is not fair if an evil poor man who lives in poveryt & terrible life conditions (hell on earth) will go to hell with another evil billionere whose money has given him "heaven on earth"

"if they mind, then they don't matter. If they don't mind, they still don't matter"

Justice is basically legal and controlled revenge, brought about to ensure order and prevent further chaos (at least that's what I'd think). I'd say it certainly does exist, perhaps it isn't as prevalent as we'd like, but I can't imagine why you would think that it isn't present at all. I mean if you adopt the traditional view of justice and find one criminal who's been imprisioned then BAM, justice is there. How exactly do you define it?

Well...firstly...i have been seeing a few of ur other threads...looks like to me u r on a mission or rather a peace-keeping mission is it so....u talk all bout the ways that unfortunately badness is prevailing over goodness, and humanity in particular...

For ur question, well it really depends on the way ppl are percieving JUSTICE...long time ago this was a word of heavy importance...but nowadays...it s no more...ppl manipulate Justice the way they want to...pay money and get away with it...Money is Power in today's world unlike before it used to be Justice and Law...

So well...there u go...for me..there is nothin like Justice anymore...otherwise as u said...innocence wud have found the way into goodness hands of the world...but not at the doorstep if death...(ooo...that was a good last line isnt it buddy...tell me it was)

Cheers...

Who out of any of us can set ourselves up as an authority on any of these subjects? Governments and religious leaders try but only on the most basic things do they get it right. Most times its just their view of what is justice.

It really does exist

In MOvies

In Law Books

In real life NO :)

[img_assist|nid=21285|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]

i dont have thesis or assignment ....

just curious about this topic......

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it." -Aristotle

smile,