Barriers

yeah i know that for a fact... My mom never goes anywhere unless me or my dad r with her... But its so disgusting tht guys go nuts just looking at a woman no matter how old or young whatever.. Well hats of to all of u who go through this day in and day out and still stand tall and face each day with a smile !!!! Being a guy here i know its much much easier here for us !!!

Do I find it confining? LOL of course I do! I hate it, I'm a western girl, I'm used to being able to go places on my own. I do drive and I've had someone actually try to get in my car to attack me. You just learn to live with it and get through your day, make sure your car doors are locked and you always know you surroundings. It's not as safe here as some would have you believe.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Taking these precautions are good, but dont u feel confined in some ways... I guess its always better to be safe than sorry ... May be u should start driving tht would solve a lot of ur worries... Ive heard of women getting jumped on even in supermakets n stuff... Its just this place and the mentality of people i guess... HOw long do u think life will b like this for women who live here ??!!

I m really shocked to hear about the incidents about the Karwa taxies.

I have seen girls (Philipinos,Indians & Arabs)get into Karwa Taxies at City Center Taxi Stand.

Maybe when the girl is alone....Still shocking to say the least.

I don't get in cabs by myself anymore R7. Simple as that. I also try not to walk anywhere by myself or even get in elevators with only men.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

But how do u go manage to travel around knowing tht every cab u get into could get messy for u ... Hat's off to all of u for going through these situations and still being so normal and going about ur daily routine ... inspite of knowing u could land into shit again ... But it seriously is sad the authorities dont do anything about it ... Either way i think its lame and very pathetic to see the amount of trouble women have here just going about there lives...

I contacted Karwa and told them, but I doubt they did anything. I've gone to the police before about this type of stuff and it was a waste of time. SO I didn't bother.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

did u ever go to the cops about it ??!! did they get this sick cab driver ?!!! Its really horrible listening to these incidents that u ppl have to go through !!!! Was anything at all done about it Gypsy ??!!!

JackMohan Myself and quite a few other women have been attacked in Karawa taxis. In my case the guy pulled over and tried to get in the back seat with me. I had to fight him off, luckily he decided not to continue the attack when he realized I wasn't just going to "give in" to him.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

That was a useless racist comment.

Education....I have yet to see a Arab Kid with a "School Bag" on his/her shoulder.

Its one of the commonest sight early in the morning in my country at least.

Where is the Serach Tab? - Previously QL had it. Or is it my browser's problem? Sorry I am unable to search on QL. Anyway.

Karwa's complaint line is the same as the one you book to call the cab - 5888888 or something like that. Its painted on the cab itself. Since the Cabbie gives you a bill with cab no., time, amount, & also his name he can be easily traced. Or his cab no. along with the time will suffice to nab him.

Karwa do take into account the complaints and deduct from their salary.

The only prob I had Karwa was the "Waiting" for a cab some times up to 40 minutes in the HOT SUN in summer(I read somewhere someone saying - no one is going to get a cab as soon as he gets out of his house"). Then I ended up buying a car - Do I have a choice - Does anyone in Qatar have a choice when the head of transportaion speaks like this?

Reply to Jack:

Education sucks in the public schools (or so I've heard from people who attended), but university wise, there's Education City which has the top American Universities in their specialized fields. So education is improving drastically here.

Security: if i can't walk alone at night then to me this place isn't that safe.

Sponsorship: that just plain sucks.

Gypsy, cultural barriers are much harder to break than religion. I mean in religion, it's ur personal choice, and u can choose to follow it or not, whereas in culture the entire society is watching ur every move, expecting from u to live up to the standards, and should u mess up u'll be looked down upon. It seems to us that religion is tougher only because they have been so intertwined over here.

You're right Charmed, being a woman is a barrier itself. West or east there will always be discrimination in different ways. I wonder if we'll get to see a world where there's sex equality (i doubt it).

Yes there are barriers here, but I'm seeing big improvements and the Qatari women are becoming more empowered (big example is Sheikha Moza). But there will always be people who will resist these changes, and I think it's cause of their insecurities and fear of the future and what's to come. But what do u all think can be done to break these cultural barriers ?

Behaviour wise they are top rate?

You are wrong wrong wrong.

I bought a car after Karwa came on the road... Check out the other thread... Mowsalat just does not have a hotline where assault incidents can be reported.

Hindering Women's Emancipation... sometimes women themselves - 'keeping quiet' 'not wanting to cause a fuss' be vocal (polite but firm) and make sure that certain behaviour is not correct and won't be tolerated. Silence is often seen as acquiesence. I am lucky - i am from a society where I feel I have the right to make my feelings known.

For more community based cultures such as Qatar it is harder because the family collective comes before individual rights and there is so much pressure to maintain the family prestige.

Family restrictions include the men and the women. I have heard men say that they would have liked to have a little more choice in finding a wife but their mother decreed it and that was that.

In many places the lack of contraception is a vast hinderence to female advancement.

In some countries it is the low value put on women's lives etc that institutionalises supression and ingrains low self esteem.

well done gypsy!

hmmmm i think the barrier is being a women. Does that makes sense? When i was living in the Uk i got turned down for jobs because i was a women - and thats the truth! I have had employers say to me women get pregnant therefore we wont hire them once they reach a certain age- women dont get paid as much as men doing the same jobs in the west. Women are regarded as meat in the west ( work in a pub as a female and watch the men letch). being a women is hard.

In the middle east i think women are brought up to get married, have babies and be there for there husband ( depeding on how traditional the familys are) yes they go to school, college and uni however getting married is very important. Thats what is important - a women cant move out of home till she is married. But its no different from the west - most of the people i know from the UK had babies at young ages and have never worked? Most western women have babies and dont work - the only difference is the western women have the choice. ( not in all cases i know. To me there is no difference between the way the west and the middle east treat women. yes women rights are worse out here - but then if there so amazing in the west why do women earn less than men? Why when woring in a pub or nightclub its full of pervy men? Its the same to me!

And with all this stuff with the police and do they care about harrasement and rape? I can tell you NO they dont care!!! Even if you know high up people they wont do anything i speak from experience.

Oh and when getting into taxis - call someone on your mobile and in a loud voice say " yes this is the plate number of the taxi which i am in and i shall be there in x time"

The cab incident would be an isolated incident...

Is it the Karwa Cab you are talking about or some private taxi.

I for one have never heard any bad behavior complaints against Karwa drivers. They might not know the destination route but behaviour-wise they are top-rate.

These private Taxidrivers can become a problem as they are the only one picking you up and dropping you everytime & during chit chat they learn all your private "data", especially so when you use the mobile while travelling in the cab. Let me tell you they can tell when you get your salary, how much your deductions are, your boyfriend/husband's name, if you have a car or if you plan to buy, They are willing to run errands, buy grocerry from the mart thus they can learn if they are intellingent howmany people are with you ,etc. Of course these are all harmless info but if the driver has a criminal bent of mind & he suspects the woman to be a loose then he could use all the info to his advantage.

I have even witnessed school-girls travelling in such cabs. How the parents trusted that guy with their children when there was a school-bus available is another matter.

Previously the woman with no access to a car had to depend on them. Now it is not the case as there are buses available & many women travel by them, even alone. Although every one stares at them no one mis-behaves with them.

Slowly as the busses increase the woman will be more able to move around freely without their husbands or so called private-taxi-driver.

So for women I would finalise it this way:

1. Education - Qatar is ok, At least the Indian Schools I dont

know about arabic education.

2.(Public) - Transportation - Imporved one step (as buses were

introduced) untill the "women without work should not drive"

ban came in. So one step front & one step back.

3. Health - Qatar is good.

4. Security - ? Womans security - That I dont know where it stands.

5. Work - It is good until the Sponsorship issue comes in - If

your husband/Father who sponsors you dont want you to work then

you better listen to him - you have no choice.

So over all Its average inspite of the Wealth & High incomes.

But It would definately improve a lot over the next 5 yrs as women were visible outside only recently.

Sorry Cornellian, I re-read Wikipedia and it's the first Gulf country to allow women to vote. Which is still funny if you think they allowed voting before the much promoted Dubai or Bahrain, which are supposed to be the more liberal countries. I agree that it isn't really the religion and more the culture. But it does get hard to tell the differnece between the two.

If it's culture though, you think it would be easier for the women to overcome it.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Maybe expats don't have anything to do with the change but their coming here did open society's eyes and make them see that there are other ways of living. And I don't think religion plays a role in the barrier, perhaps the way religion is percieved. What I found over here is that tradition and religion become intertwined, some stuff which i thought were religion turned out to be just traditions, so it's kinda hard to tell what the exact barrier is. And ofcourse there's the male ego thing (as in most cases). But yeah I've met qatari's too who are welcoming the empowerment, which is great. But is Qatar really the first nation in the middle east to allow women to vote ? what about Lebanon ? I thought it was more liberal. I don't know ?

I meant first nation in the region Ivanhoe. I'm not an idiot I know it wasn't the first country to allow women to vote. And I know women here have a long way to go still, that's why I'm asking what people think is holding them back.

Baj I'm not sure what your point is? I've met a lot of Qatari men and women here recently, not just ones from the Royal Family, who are very insterested in empowerment of women. There are a lot of young girls out there with dreams and ambitions that they won't be able to realize because of culture, religion or laws.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Was in 1896, and it was not Qatar. And Switzerland allowed women to vote in 1971.

From those that I have met here I think that the ME women are empowered and are quite strong in their beliefs - they just don't match what I am used to, coming from the country that first opened voting to women. (Now the top positions in NZ are held by women, not that I actually care who is doing the job, just that they are doing it well).

But if we were to talk about freedom regardless of gender or race then Qatar has a way to go to make things equal...

Gypsy people know this already. It's common knowledge! Infact, I think people know this fact before they even come to the country. It's just the reality of things and it's always been this way even in other Gulf countries. What do you propose we do? live our daily lives in peace by abiding by the rules or risk losing everything by defying the system and in the process be humiliated? I mean, how many Qatart's do you actually think concern themselves with these issues? Not that many! Just because me or Aisha or Qatari (or even the occasional oddballs like nouf) like to read up on these things doesn't mean the whole state of Qatar does! we're in a minority within a minority. Not only do we as Qatari's like to read on social issues but we care and like to contribute in the discussion. Ok I think my point is things are always more complicated than they appear to be. And sorry if this isnt really relevant or helpful to the orginial topic! :-P

I don't think the expats have had anything to do with the changes towards womens rights here. Qatar is actually one of the most progressive nations in the Middle East when it comes to womens rights, it was the first nation to allow women to vote, and the women here are highly educated. This has all happened since the current Emir took power. Yet it seems that empowerment has come to a bit of a stand still. If you look at Dubai and Bahrain, even Saudi, lots of women are opening their own businesses, becoming judges and politicians,here that kind of thing seems to be limited to the Royal Family.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Oh nw here comes the gypsy with another ridiculous topic like a troll.... Its their choice why do we have to bother? Luk who is taking concern about other people's issues?

Oh nw here comes the gypsy with another debatable topic like a troll....

Sorry I didn't have time to read all the posts, but I think barriers here are culture and tradition. If we look at qatar a few decades ago, women had no role in society but slowly expats starting coming in and change started taking place and people usually resist change so it'll take time (maybe a long time) for qatar to become a more liberal place for women. But it will happen sooner or later, I mean look at dubai, it used to be like qatar and now it's a very liberal place for women where they don't get harrassed, get high profile jobs, etc. So u can't really generalize the situation over the entire middle east cause places like dubai and lebanon aren't like qatar at all.

I think religion has nothing to do with it, it's more of the family constraints which society (meaning the old qatari society) has imposed on it. But I still believe that slowly things will change.

I think it is mainly to do with culture.

It is the elephant in the room scenario;

If something is there for long enough, it will become normal.

Mind sets will need to change, but humans are pack animals and are therefore likely to follow the pack mind set.

It is only when changes are introduced slowly and figureheads offer their endorsement that the populous will follow suit.

In this, and other, cases there are male relitives telling females what to do.

But that is what is expected and largely accepted, because it is normal/common.

I don't blame the men.

My daughter doesn't tell me what to do, but maybe sometimes she should.

And if I am honest I wouldn't be compfortable telling my friends that I can't come out because she won't let me, because it not perceived manly or normal.

So I think my ramblings are trying to say that the main thing holding women back is time it's self

i gonna get fired soon.

i told you, if you want to do something about it, then lets.

maybe nothing happens, but if you don't stand up to what you believe is wrong then nothing will change. Canada faced the same battles. people stood up, and things changed.

people will continue to, and things will change.

i know its not that simple, but you have to start somewhere.

really, bye

No Mooney, it is not simply assault. There is much more invloved to it here than simple assault. If I were attacked in a cab in Canada, It would be an isolated assault, here it is something that happens to pretty much every woman in the country. That is more than assault.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

You see Mooney this is what I mean, why do those women have a tougher road? That's what empowerment is about, making a change so women don't have to fight like that. For every one woman you have working about you, there are 10 out there who are too scared or aren't allowed to do it. Also Mooney how many of those women are Qatari and how many of them hold a position over a Qatari man?

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

ok, i just got hit in the temple with a bolder.

Assault is NOT reprisal for a women traveling by herself. Assault is a crime. A man who walks alone and gets mugged is as much at fault as the women who gets assaulted. This has nothing to do with the topic

we should stop the cab talk.

ok working now, bye

If you bring an actual assualt victim to report a crime, I will go with you, and will bring a Qatri friend to help. But i won't go just to see what they will say.

Gypsy, what is your position here in Qatar? Do you have authority over any men.

There are women here at my office who have this authority over Arab men. It does exist. They face a tougher road then the men in the same position, but its their choise to fight.

Ok really, got to go to work, my female boss gonna stone me soon.

This isn't just about sexual assault guys, this is about women having careers and making their own choices without fear of reprisal. I mentioned the cabs because assualt is one of the reprisals for a girl travelling somewhere by herself.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Cab situation - It’s not that easy!

Some women are ashamed of admitting that such a thing happened to them.

I have been. I've been to the police station myself, know women who have been and know full well that nothing happens. If you want to come with me tomorrow and see what there response is, then by all means do. But there are deeper issues here, like WHY won't the police do anything? Is it religion, culture, sterotypes about expats? I'm asking what is causing the barriers to equality and empowerment for women in this region, not just talking about girls getting assaulted.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Don't blame men's horny behaviour on women's choice of clothes! Even if you dress formally, these sickos still drool and will even dare harass you. I know one married lady, wearing t-shirt and pants went to a small grocery store, and the store staff there, went right ahead and touched her boobies, out of nowhere, she shouted and became so mad she went ahead and slapped the guy and then called for a police. Good thing, she speaks a little arabic, she convinced the police to deport the maniac.

One more thing before i go back to work,

there reason only men are responding is that Qatar has about an 8,000,000 to 1 man/women ratio.

Gypsy,

If empowerment is what you want, encourage every women who is a victim to these assualts to go forward to the authorities. If its true that nothing will happen and the police will dimiss it as "she wanted it", then I will stand next to you in protest as I am sure will many of the people in QL.

Its a first step

Sorry for butting in ur forum Gypsy !!!! didnt realise every1s got there sensitive caps on today !!!

This is a topic that I'm interested in and I wanted to see what people had to say. I didn't think it would piss people off.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Good question butterfly. If you'll notice, the only people who have given their opinion so far have been men besides my self and ooo.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Does'nt any 1 have anything so Non Serious to talk about .... We r disscussing such snoozy subjects these days !!! No Offence to any of u ppl out there !!!! :P

why is everyone getting so defensive with this topic?

I did ask a question. Look, it's at the top of the page. :)

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Gypsy, If you TRULY want to know what people REALLY think, ask a question, don't give them an opinion first.

Oh, sorry, and e46m3 I've heard of a couple of rapes in cabs here. The problem is they aren't reported because women here don't really trust the police or the government to do right by them in these situations. Especially South East Asian women. It was actually that thread about dangers in Taxis that made me think about this, at the end of the thread, besides reporting it to the cab company which probably won't do anything, what can any of us girls do? Nothing. The police don't care, men toss it off as the way we expat women dress, and women just have to continue to be scared.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

And just because one women manages to do something, doesn't mean it's a piece of cake for other women to do it. ;)

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Wow Mooney, you just jumped on the sterotype bandwagon didn't you! Thank you for your Typical mans response.

Bajesus, Who said I haven't already, maybe I already know what they say and I just want to see what other peoples think. Or if they even see a problem It's enlightening to see if everyone else see the same thing these girls do.

I think e46m3 came closest in what he said to the truth. Except it isn't just the women. How many fathers or brothers here tell there sisters or wives that they can't do this or that? A lot.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Can we broaden the perspective from the middle east to the entire world? Women all over the world have empowerment issues to some extent …

Men's fault? true sometimes! But also sometimes (and ladies go ahead and shoot me for this) women build up their own barriers and, again, I believe this is true all over the world.

I agree with e46m3. you "knowingly opened a can of worms"

Your question is loaded with stereotypes of the middle east. Your question may have validity, but you should have stopped typing at the first paragraph.

1. A women was just elected into Government a few weeks back. (It may be the first, not sure, but this is progress)

2. I haven't been in the women's side of a hospital, so I can't comment directly. I am sure you haven't been treated on the men's side, so you shouldn't comment. The hospitals are here to treat people and save lives. I am sure they wouldn't let you die beacuse you are a women. (although if an Arab Doctor read your statement, who knows)

2. What does being felt up in a taxi have to do with the empowerment of middle eastern women? Women are raped in the U.S. and Canada and across the world daily. Does this mean they are repressed, or does it mean that the assaliant was disturbed. There is no relationship between being felt up in a cab and empowerment. Had the perpatrator been caught, he would have been punished.

3. Being able to choose your own husband and when to bear child? I assume you know all of the women and men in the Middle East, and surveyed them to come to that conclusion. I was born in Canada, but parents are Middle Eastern. My sisters both chose their husbands, and one even chose to get a divorce. (WOW, what progress). I have many relatives born and raised in the Middle East who have also chosen their husbands. I know this arranged marriage does happen, but its not just the Middle East, and its diffinately not all the people in the Middle East.

As a philosopher maybe your question should have been: "How can we accelerate the process of the empowerment of women in the middle east?"

Realize that this area is growing and developing. Just as did Canada and the U.S. way back when. With this development will come change.

I think if you really want to know from locals own perspective or just to affirm what you have to say about them then you should ask some in person yourself because at least then you'll get valuable feedback straight from the source. Just my 2 cents worth! :-)

Wow, Gypsy, this is gonna be one long thread. I have a feeling you just knowingly opened a can of worms.

You didn't tell me about April Wine.

I don't think there's an empowerment issue. There are so many empowered women. And while there are abused women there are also many abused men.

If you look at a country like Mauritania women are very dominant, in a work-place and social sense.

I think some/many Arab/Muslim/Middle Eastern women place psychological barriers upon themselves.

I look at the issue of "honor killings" and wonder, could a woman get away, as easily as a man usually does, with killing her spouse/brother/father for tainting her honor by having extramarital sex?

There are social constraints and shackles. Some are superimposed while others are self-imposed.

And I'm sure we'll hear the opinion that everything is fine. I think there was a survey done last year in Jordan in which the majority of women respondents said they were happy with their lot and wanted nothing to change.

Harassment in taxis? It happens everywhere. I haven't heard of a rape in a cab here but I did, many times, when I lived in London.

The Arab or Islamic world is not one homogeneous unit. You'll find many differences from one place to the other. What holds true in Tunisia doesn't necessarily hold true in the UAE. What happens in rural Pakistan can never take place in the southern Lebanese countryside.

As for divorce; in certain parts there's a problem. http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20070327-064841-3047r

I think it's more of culture that hinders ME women to do the things they should be doing - like getting a job, studying - University, yes, choose a husband. IT's more of a culture thing - because they are used to do the things their ancestors have been doing for ages, and they become a little unaware of the outside world. But come to think of it, I think little by little they are widening their horizon, for example, we have now a Qatari lady pilot and also a qatari lady racecar driver. It's a step. But still a long journey to go. Unless, they get out of this "bias" thinking - then maybe most of them will be rich because of what they "know" not just because of who they are and where they come from.

Did I make a point? If not, lemme know

is men

We had better live as we think, otherwise we shall end up by thinking as we lived. - Paul Bourget