just an earnest question. with all due respect to the members of the world's confident religions, are their any atheists in QL? thanks. just a question.
Gypsy, now YOU are over simplifying things. "I would assume that somebody, another human being, built it", that's of course assuming that there was somebody around with the knowledge and capability to do so. Now before such "people" were around, there was a magnificent ordered universe. I think that's what Dmightysolomon was referring to ;)
Mr. Paul, why cant it be proven??? tell me one thing what is lust, love, pain, joy, happiness??? r they some kind of chemicals in your body? what r emotions? who made a human mind?, did it just become complex due to evolution?, what is big bang?, just cuz there was light the earth got created? atheism is based on materialistic things, there is no such things and basically ignorance (no offense its my opinion).
--------
There are many reasons for war, but only few for peace.
I think being an atheist means you know A LOT about religion and because of that have chosen to reject it.
Thank you for making me realise that lots of knowledge is of no use unless you 've got...errmmm guidance ...hehe....i didn't say you were mis-guided(or mebbe i did):p
Dmightysolomon, if I saw a house in the woods I would assume that somebody, another human being, built it. I wouldn't assume some all-knowing all powerful sky daddy built it.
Well, thankfully you said them and now you've clarified what you've said. And I agree, I think religion, for when it was created, was a moral catalyst for society and did start the long and winding path to our current ideas about Human Rights, etc.
and yet he or she is in the place that God created. Simple question, if you see a house in a forest, would you say that it just happened to be there or logical to presume that there is somebody who built that house.
The Big Bang theory can not be logically proven. Atheist knows that!!!!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Trying to use my own words against me eh? :) I was trying to say that religion helped to address these issues not erradicate them.
I also don't think that education as a polar opposite to religion. I think religion is education for our souls. So in my opinion education and religion helped to lessen the problem.
"Andrew, the majority of the examples of people doing bad as you put it were established BEFORE religion came to the people of a certain area. For example honor killings, female circumcision, etc. were practices that the people's convictions told them were upright and correct. It wasn't until religion came to the people that mankind started to see these barbaric acts have no place in society."
As I said the current BIG 3 have been around for over 3000 years if you start with Judaism, and Islam has been at work for 1400 or so, and honor killings and female circumcision has only been seen as bad for the last 50 or so. So what I was saying is you really can't give religion the credit for making people see these things as barbaric.
I don't think anyone said religion put a stop to it. What was said is that this practice is an extreme example of people using their own moral compasses to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong.
Well, either way, these practices are still occuring, so the assertion earlier in this thread that religion has put a stop to these horrific practices was wrong. Nothing has put a stop to them.
Nothing has completely stopped these practices because people are going to do what they want to do. So for those who wanted to abandon the practice whether they used religion or education they have left it and in turn spoken out against it. The rest aren't interested in change and no matter how you approach them they don't feel a need to do so.
Whether using the religion (and not just Islam, Christianity has been "adapted" to explain it as well) as an excuse or adapting it or ignoring the religion altogether, the fact is that religion did not put a stop to these practices, rather, education has.
Gypsy it is not that religion took its time. It is not about western feminism "changing or saving women from other parts of the world". It is about the simple fact that a cultural practice when clung to is very difficult to uproot. People will cling to any excuse to continue practing a cultural act that they like. That is why this practice as you noted continues until the day. That is not the fault of religion, rather it is the fault of ignorant people using the religion as an excuse to continue a heinous custom.
There is nothing in Islam for for that matter Christianity which can condone or even suport these actions. They are purely cultural and stem from lack of education..
Ok I can't possibly read all 111 posts that I missed, but a big thing I need to point out is that honour killings and female circumsion are cultural and predate Islam HOWEVER when Islam was introduced it was actually adapted to justify these acts and it's only in the last 50 or so years that people have even started questioning that they were wrong and the reason for that has NOTHING to do with religion and everything to do with ideas of feminism coming from the the West, which forced Muslim clerics to question these acts and subsequently condemn them. In fact if it hadn't been greater awareness of Human Rights these atrocities would still be happening (and still are).
The Big 3 Current Religions have been around for 3000 years, the idea that honour killings are wrong for 50. Boy, religion takes it's sweet time doesn't it. :P
and thanks as well.. friendship knows no barriers.. we can all end up as friends.. no matter how different our views are.. pleasant dreams everyone.. :)
without these kinds of intellectual discussions would fundamentally limit the freedom of thought.. we all have certain views.. and its right, to admit, that at this point, we have understood each others argument so much, that we are capable of doing this althrough some gazillionth years from now and still end up.. asking each other.. really.. "why are we here?"
Mr. Paul, if you (God forbid) lost a limb or any vital organ, what would you pay to have an artificial one implanted? We all read in the news how much people pay for such replacements. But what about the limbs and organs you already have? Are they worthless? No. So if they are so valuable, and you didn't make them yourself, the you owe somebody something. Isn't that common sense?
with neither side able to prove either way, but as time is marching on, i have to bow out now, as i have an appointment with Wranglers wild west bar, for a meeting with MR John Smiths Bitter.
for atheism doesn't base its stand on the weakness of the other (theism). there is simply no rivalry. that's the beauty of it, in atheistic terms, a life less complicated. "a farmer will just plow his own little field.." humans doesn't need to believe, humans needs to know.
In saying "Oh my God" when in trouble there is an inherent addmission that only He has the power to ward of what you fear might befall you. I don't think that would be annoying. After all, we as human beings are the only creatures with the intellectual capacity to recognise the order in our universe and to appreciate it and indulge in debates such as this one about whether a Creator exists or not.
you are categorically stating that "there is no God."..
This in turn requires complete and utter certainty. This would require complete and perfect knowlege opwleSeone once said, that m i But can the atheist be of all things..
well, as what the physicist said, "the universe can exist with or without a god.." and guess what, the scientist who proposed the Big Bang Theory (the universe is expanding) was, Georges Lemaître, a Belgian physicist and Roman Catholic priest.
We only sleep well at night because we know that tomorrow's another day, the sun will rise we'll breathe fresh air and go about our business taking for granted all that makes our lives possible. Don't we have to thank someone for having done such a great job that we don't even have to think about these things?
saying.. "hhAACChhOOO when you Sneeze.." or "Ouucchh" when hurt. its more of a result of a stimulus, caused by countless familiarity, a reflex of the human mind.. because other people say it often, you get to say it yourself, i doubt if a God would appreciate people shouting his name all the time, if there are accidents or untoward incidents.. wouldn't that be too annoying? 100million people per hour saying "Oh My GOd". LOL..
I'm not getting in a debate about it, but you asked. So yes: there are atheists in Qatar. I have nothing to add that wouldn't sound like Dawkins rhetoric.
"If you're going to believe in crap than you might as well be living in it"
I think its more unsettling to believe that there is no reason behind all that exists around us. If you see a cool lamborghini, don't you praise the designer? And when you see a universe full of perfect order, so perfect that we need volumes of science books to describe the laws governing it and keeping everything in place, how can't we wonder about its designer?
And why does EVERYBODY utter...."Oh my God" when facing a sudden tribulation? Is it just a habit or does it go deeper than that? I think human beings have an inherent knowledge of the existant of a Creator, but some feel safer to live in denial. I wonder why?
being an atheist is being brave. without leaning on to something in times of crisis, must really really be a test of strength. and i believe, atheists are strong people. no whining. no ranting. no finger pointing, or blaming as to who or why things happened in his life. its much much simpler to think that way. other than saying.. "it might be for a certan reason.."
I have been careful not to offend the religions of any participants, even if it might be atheism. And I assure you that I'm not asserting "my religion as being better than yours". I just believe that if we all have a correct understanding of each others stand point, maybe we can coexist better and understand our differences and points of agreement. Who knows, we might even reach a resolution and unanimously declare that God exists ;)
I feel ya Paul, but for the most part no specific religion has been named except for some of Man's examples. I think we have gone out of our way not to make this into a my religion is better than yours type of thread.
Well forgive me for wandering off into more interesting realms. I felt the question was more of an invitation to discuss the issue of atheism at a more intellectual level. And I belive the responses from the other participants says that they found this intersting as well. But if you want to strictly follow the question that opened this thread, well you alredy hve your answer I suppose ;)
Just to answer your question thexonic, I am a muslim. And Muhamed taught us that God, or Allah in arabic, Jahwe in Hebrew, etc. sent Gabriel to all the prophet to reveal the same basic message: submit your will to Me, Worship Me and thank Me for what I have given you. Obey My law to your own benefit and I wil reward you and thank you for that. Muslims believe in the prophethood of all previous prophets and regard them with the highest respect.
God becomes neccessary when it comes to the essence of humanity. Loving for your fellow human being what you love for yourself. Being kind to the weak and poor, to your wife and children, to your parents and to your neighbors. And God chose the best of us to reveal His guidance to them and convey it to the rest of us. Before revelation all the prophets were known by society to be the most virtuous and humble people. The pagans of Mekkah called Muhammed the "Honest and Trustworthy" before revelation and called upon his judgement to settle their disputes. Jesus was known to be the most compassionate man of his days. Moses was known to be the most just man in his society. And ultimately, God becomes neccessary when He calls us to rise from our graves and answer to Him what we did with our freedom to choose between right and wrong.
Maybe you have answered the rhetorical question about who people look up to when there is no God in a society/culture.
You are assuming that only God is capable of guiding people.
Firstly, God can't directly guide anyone, like your engineering lecturer *directly* guides you. God may come to you directly, or maybe a preacher wil act as intermediary... and this is where problems arise. But that's a seperate issue.
What I'm saying is that if your parents can guide you to become an engineer, and a lawyer can guide you to obey a contract, and a police officer can guide you to not park incorrectly, and a judge/criminal justice system can deter (guide) you away from murdering people, at what point does God become necessary?
In that context, an atheist is one who doesn't believe that you have to learn from a teacher who knows more than you and can lead you to become something better. But if you do become an engineer and then you and design ballistic missles, don't blame your university professor LOLOLOLOL
I agree Andrew, and I respect all the views of the esteemed colleagues in the debate. But I would say to your last point, is a desire to do good enough to guide you to it? Wanting to become an engineer is a desire. Can it be done without going through school university and practical application? I'm an engineer, so I know the answer is no LOL. But after going through all that to become one, I see the wisdom of my parents urging me to study and be patient when it gets so tough that you wanna jump out of the ninth floor window. And now I am grateful, and live a life that I am happy with. Others who didn't take that path are not so happy, but the choice was theirs all along.
Mr. Paul... and what do you call the Tamil Tigers? The ancient Samurai who committed suicide for honour? Again, just blaming a whole religion for an abhorration by some individuals is rash judgement in my opinion. That's like saying all christians are terrorists because of the acts of the IRA. So lets leave that out of the thread if you don't mind.
I think we've reached the point in our discussion where we see and understand one another's arguments, but don't feel compelled to believe them.
Seriously, I do see your reasoning, Hashim, and I can see why you think the way you do.
Can I turn your argument on its head for a second and say that maybe God created man with a desire for doing 'bad' things (like the way children desire sweets) but with a deeper, ingrained knowledge that they should really do 'good' things (like when adults grow up and stop eating at MacDonalds).
So assuming that the above is true, and that God did make man with a fundamental knowledge of what's right and wrong, we could say that although an Atheist refuses to accept the existence of a higher God, he is still hardwired to believe in the right and wrong things that God has programmed within him.
In which case:
Acknowledging a belief in God will not make you a good or bad person, because inherent within you is a desire to good things.
My point is Andrew, that he didn't impose any order in us by default. Not that he made us bent on cruelty, no. He gave us exclusively the choice to become what we want to become. And the whole universe around us is full of signs of the perfection of His creation and that if we follow the path He which He conveyed to us through numerous prophets, then we will become perfect too. And for that He offered us the reward of eternal life in bliss and happiness after the universe fades away after having fulfilled the purpose which it was created for.
Its like having a student who you want to make into a successful professional. You have what he needs and you know what his potentials are and what can become of him. But you can't do it FOR him, he has to do it himself. You can only offer him your knowledge and advice. Only if he accepts it will he become what you want to see in him. Without freedom of choice this whole scenario doesn't exist.
So you are saying that God created the entire universe, complete with physical laws to stop our dear planet from hurtling into the sun, and to keep the moon up in the heavens, even creating electromagnetic radiation so we can use wireless internet...
but he also decided, just for kicks, to set the default for a human to 'self-centered'... so that we all try to kill one another and realise that we do, in fact, need god in our lives.
that is why an atheist will not debate a theist for this precise reason.. a(means lack)theism(belief)= lack of belief.. an atheist will not simply adhere the reason of a supreme being, because an atheist simply doesn't adhere nor recognize the existence of one.. well, i respect your views and inclinations my friend.. =)
Man98 God completes our upright character by teaching us the virtues of compassion, mercy, brotherly love, generosity. That surely is sthg good that helps us become what he wants us to be.. the crown of His creation.
In most heavenly religions, angels aren't held accountable because they obey without questioning Gods commands. God named us the cream of His creation because we alone were given the CHOICE to obey or disobey. Hence a human being who voluntarily obeys God and answers His call without having to is already your version 2.0 LOL
Take the laws of physics for example. Wouldn't the universe be in utter chaos if there weren't any rules to regulate it? What keeps our dear planet from veering off course into the heart of our lustrious sun. Now reflect that on human society. The only difference is that we, of all creatures in the world, have to make the choice to follow the laws that God offers us. We don't have to, and that is the basis of accountability that only human beings are burdened with.
I would have thought that if God wanted us to live in peace and harmony, he wouldn't have made so many people so eager to fight and kill one another.
Left to their own devices, some humans can be pretty darn awful. I always find it odd that God created people with so many character flaws. It sounds to me like he needs to do away with the current mob and try a version 2.0 who aren't so nasty to each other.
haha yeah hashimozotoyama, he kills us all.. i was just quoting something from the bible.. bout religions.. because, it was mentioned that honor killings are evil. so if someone is a christian and reads in the bible, that his God drowned this egyptians to save the israelites, so it won't be evil? anyway.. that won't matter.. :) any thanks guys for the collision of thoughts!:)
Everyone is responsible for his own choices man98. And there are so many examples of children who choose a different way of life than that of their parents after growing up. I agree that it is ignorant to blindly follow tradition, but coming back to atheism, what is HUMAN CONSCIOSNESS? Is that a fixed value or a variable one?
=) it's a way of life. and is based on human consciousness, and atheists, doesn't persuade people to share their unbelief.. well, if you can collectively, derive the thought that religion, is the basis of order in this world, that is because it flourished for centuries.. you know, i bet the religions of your parents, are your religions as well.. "if you are born in indonesia, then you will be a muslim.. from tibet, you might be a buddhist.., in japan a taoist.. in israel, a jew.." you see, we are commanded to accept the religion of our parents.. as if we have no choice during birth.. atheism offers personal freedom.. from standards not created nor set by your conviction.. you are obliged to follow. atheism, can never be compared to religion. they really are not on the same page my friends..
Let's leave God out of the debate man98. Cause if you consider that according to most heavenly religions, all our souls go to Him after we die, then He actually kills us all LOL.
it is said that the God of the Old testament drowned the egyptians, who were trailing the israelites, when the israelites, being slaves of egyptians, marched out of egypt..
yes, it is bleak.. and can be considered evil, based on religious.. i understand you now. but you see, when talking to an atheist, good and evil is not recognized.. because evil translates religion. so a better term would be, inhumane.. peace brother!!
Without religion there would be as many convictions are there are human beings man98. I'm not saying there won't be any, but how do you then say which is the right one. And when they contradict each other, how would such a dispute be settled?
There are people who are atheist and maybe do bad things because they think 'who can punish me? there is no higher power'.
There are people who are religious who blow up innocent civilians on a bus who say 'well, god knows what I am doing is right so I should do this'.
My earlier point was that being religious is no guarentee that a person is what we could loosely term 'just' or 'good'.
Hashim:
I'm not making any claim on the 'justness' of any state, secular or religious. I'm saying that just because all the people are religious, in the case of Turkey, doesn't mean that the 'state' has to be religious.
If you want a debate on the various merits of criminal justice systems, I think we are in the wrong thread.
Actually Man I thought we agreed not to address certain religions. I am a Muslim not a Christian. So your questions about what is or is not in the Bible really should be addressed to another person.
My point is not misleading at all. The practices of female circumcision and honor killings are evil. What possible explaination can there be for killing an infant because she is a girl? This is EVIL. Are you trying to tell me that there is a justifiable reason to engage in the above mentioned activities?
Bottom line is, human beings are self centred by thier nature. A group in power will do all that consolidates its own power and wealth without respect to the poor and weak. Religion advocates ultruism to the better of all. That is the measure of whether a religion or belief is truly from a Higher being that has ALL human beings' interest in mind, and not only a few.
so you're saying the only basis of human conviction is religion? to lead a good life you need religion? so without religion, human conviction will not exist? conviction that to sustain its own survival, they need to care for their fellow human beings, so we without religion, we can't achieve this? historically. we can. whoever told us, that the world was conquered because of religion. and rampant killings of non-believers, or pagans, or atheists branded as heretics, do you think this was based on the conviction of one's religion?
Andrew, yes people hide behind religion in some instances. However in the end the problem is the person not the religion. If I buy a car and start running over people on the street, is the problem me or the car? I don't care what the PC cops say, some people are evil and the world would be better off without them (Hitler for one comes to mind). So we have to make a difference between the claim and the person making the claim.
you're point is misleading.. honor killings? evil? these are traditions.. and theists like you label this as evil. because it is in your ten commandments. but how about you setting yourself, as part of this culture, as someone born which his father or mother is a member of this "religion", would you consider this evil? like, euthanasia? killing in for the sake of the patient, if your part of the society that accepts it, you won't see it as evil. but rather a product of your society. and even female circumcision. or the lashing of someones back. or piercing of your body skin. tattoos of aborigines. first born offerings as stated in the old testament of the bible, so you will also consider this evil? its in the bible. or not?
Most countries around the world impose the rule of law without relying on bibles or torahs or korans.
This is a religious state, so why don't people obey road rules? Why doesn't your land lord obey the law instead of increasing rent by 20%?
The reason the rule of law breaks down in some countries, and remains strong in others is not, in my view, strongly linked to the presence of a state religion.
Turkey is, literally, a 'secular' state yet 99% of its population is muslim. Perhaps its a good example where the power of the state resides within the state itself, not on the back of a religion.
Conviction in what man98? You said it. There must be a conviction is some posistive system that upholds justice, rights, peace, etc. The absence of that conviction leads to chaos. A system that imposes charity is surely more likely to alleviate poverty than having no system at all, or even worse, one that advocates the rich getting richer and the poor gettng poorer.
Andrew the your sister got pregnant example is not true. I know many people who got rolled on because they did someone's sister or cousin wrong. Like I said earlier, honor killings is from the culture of certain people not from any religion. In fact honor killings is a perfect example of people getting together and making up their own rules. This evil practice is so deeply rooted in certain cultures, they have even changed or gone against their own religion in order to practice it.
My question would be: in a hypothetical atheist state, how would the law of the land look like. How would disputes be settled? Who is to say what is right and what isn't. These questions must be answered to guarantee the peaceful coexistance of human society. And similarily, an abhorration of a positive system of guidance will bring about chaos such ashonour killings and the likes.
I would argue that some of the worst conflicts have been between religious groups, not people just fighting for politics.
Look at the Middle East conflict - a land of people who believe strongly in two different religions, both of which supposedly teach tolerance and preach happy co-habitation.
If they can't make it work...?
The Taliban were/are seriously religious chaps, and they are hardly bringing peace and security to Afghanistan.
The Horn of Africa is full of religious battles too right now.
Mugabe won't give up his role as President, stating that 'only God can remove me'...
the list could go on.
Yes, there are plenty of examples of people fighting for political reasons too, to be sure.
like to believe that our loved ones don't just die, that there is something there after death, but I am also in need of proof, thats me, I believe what I see for my own eyes, and until then guess I will remain agnostic.
andrew, I agree, people hide behind religion to commit terrible acts upon others.
for me, the advocacy of every religion is not enough to uplift the human condition on poverty.. but to have solace on them is a precious thing for every human being. being religious person i guess can never be synonymous to being an upright human being. on my view, its our human conviction. our "own" convinction.
Andrew, the majority of the examples of people doing bad as you put it were established BEFORE religion came to the people of a certain area. For example honor killings, female circumcision, etc. were practices that the people's convictions told them were upright and correct. It wasn't until religion came to the people that mankind started to see these barbaric acts have no place in society.
There are people who do some *seriously* bad things not DESPITE of their religion, but BECAUSE of it.
Again, I'm not trying to generalize, but in western culture if you're sister goes out and gets pregnant to her boss, you shrug your shoulders and say 'it's her life'.
There are some people who think that their RELIGION commands them to go out and murder her for bringing dishonour on the family.
One of the benefits of atheism is that it puts your own life into your own hands, and it also tends to make people think that what other people do is other people's business. So they don't go on crusades (literally) to stop people drinking alcohol, or fornicating, or whatever.
I don't want to distract from the main topic, but just as an example is there any precedent of atheism leading to a better coexistance of human beings in a society? By defenition atheism doesn't have anything to offer since it is the absence of belief and not a belief in something positive that can change life to the better.
yes, moral standards had walked a long long way before humans were able to establish a concrete one.. and we're luckier now, that we don't have to undergo those grave setbacks that happened along the course of human history..
I think when people stop adhering to a positive system of belief, that's when things start going wrong and chaos starts to spread among human societies. Its not the CLAIM to being religious that matters, its the adherance the way of life advocated by that religion that matters.
Okay. You're right. Saying you are a member of a particular religion may make you more likely to be a 'better' person (less likely to rape, murder or whatever) but it's no guarentee.
Please let's don't get into a distracting religious argument based on the relative merits of different faiths, but all I'll say is that there are plenty of well known examples of people doing 'bad' (we can more or less all agree that they are 'bad') things *in the name of religion - honour killings, capital punishment, the killing of innocent civilians etc.
I wonder what would happen if the Americans elected a President who said he had no faith in a religion, rather than one who is supposedly a 'good, christian man'.
That's generalising it a bit andrew. Take a concrete example: 1450 years a go the arabian peninsula was in chaos. Murder, rape, theft, burring infant girls you name it. The pagen arabs accepted that as their way of life although they recognised that it was causing a lot of misery. After Muhammed came, this all changed after moral values were established and adhered to. And a system was in place to make sure that these values were respected. 400 years later those same arabs were taeching philosophy, medicine and mathematics in Spain and passed on a lot of valuable knowledge to Europe in the process.
yes, based on our convictions of ourselves, and it is enough to lead an upright life. because at the end of the day, when we lay to bed.. what do we really want? we can ask oursleves that question each night. all we want is for our families to be happy, for our loved ones to be healthy, for our friends to be bubbly, these are all we want.. and these are the only things that will always matter..
"Every one of us is precious in the cosmic perspective. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another."
I don't think that morality or ethics are linked to religion. There are lots of awful people who seem to claim that they are religious, and lots of lovely souls out there who don't follow anything.
Saying that you are religious doesn't make you any more likely to be a 'better' person. In fact there are many cases of people doing dreadful things in the name of religion.
Relative is an issue here. What if you have someone who believes that to take life is a virtue? There must be some sort of guidance that brings all human beings into a coexistace beneficial to all?
reaching to this human state, is anything but a journey, one might be a pastor or a reverend, or a biologist or a physicist, an engineer or an artist, in a certain level of human consciousness, it as a path being taken.. one might believe in the big bang or the garden of eden, but what really matters is how you live your life. morality is actually a state of mind. and never be considered a standard of life. it varies. it is relative. this life after all is relative.
People see proof of the existance of atoms and quarks until relatively recently. But the effects that were studied in the past gave a very high probability that they existed. So seeing isn't neccessarily believing.
I think it's just a question of perspective, hashim.
Some people won't believe in something until they see evidence that it exists (or is likely to exist). Others would rather believe in something until there is evidence that it does not exist.
I don't think one is necessarily the 'easy' way out.
Agnosticism is the easy way out. You can go through life ignoring religion and then recant it all on your deathbed.
Human logic is a factor in that. Even if one is an atheist, there are some scientific facts that are inescapable. Assuming one accepts the Big Bang theory which is very scientific, it remains a logical question of what initiated it. Cause logically, every effect must have a cause scientifically speaking.
I AM an agnostic fundamentalist. Some say this is a contradiction, since agnostics have no fundamental beliefs. They haven't decided anything, not even whether or not there is a God.
So how can they defend their path when they remain stuck at the first fork in the road? Even very tolerant people say, we are here on Earth to make a choice, and if you can't decide even the most fundamental religious question, you have failed.
I say, we make choices every day in our lives. We choose how to live, how to treat others and how to spend our limited time in this world. These are the most important choices we make.
God does not require constant affirmations of faith, but would be more interested in the way we treat our fellow creatures than in monuments we erect in its name or praises we bestow. I believe it is as valuable an activity to wonder about God as it is to worship it.
Faith is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. It is what we do with it that determines its value.
Some believers ask me: "What are the joys of being agnostic?"
This is what I tell them: "I don't feel joy or sorrow from it. But all I know is that I feel much more freedom to open my mind to possibilities. Religion locks your mind into a box frame and you don't allow yourself to step out of that box for fear of going against what your God tells you and keeps you captive, trapped and in control believing one way and one way only." I believe we all have capabilities to connect to the higher being, the truth of the universe and its ways and the ability to tap into that without religion.
In fact, there are probably more chances of tapping into the universal truth without religion than with it. Perhaps, at one time, there was a purpose for it (religion, I mean), but no more. Religion will disappear and higher conscience people will show their goodness without religion, and you'll be surprised that it is so easy and possible.
Agnostic is NOT the one who isn't having no knowledge of religion, but rather who is not sure whether god is existing or not. Atheist doesn’t believe in God, coz he is sure there are no God.
Agnostic is the one who also doesn’t believe in God, but for another reason: he cannot know for certain whether there are or aren't any gods.
Why is it that if a person chooses to be an atheist he / she is seen as enlightened and educated about religion. Yet if some professes belief in a religion no matter how much they have studied they are seen as blind followers and astray? Hashim good to see you again.
Why is it so hard to believe that not all people believe in a God?
An atheist believes there is nothing out there to believe in. Why is that any less of a belief than someone who believes in something that is not tangible, and which cannot be phyisically experienced?
I think the terms atheist & agnostic need to be defined. An atheist is a person who has made a conscious decision not to believe in or participate in any religion. An agnostic is a person who does not believe in or actively practice any religion, but remains open to accepting one. Sounds like splitting hairs, but there is a big difference between the two.
sure, tallg.. even more... atheist might know about DIFFERENT religions, from different points of view, to have very deep and wide idea of various streams of religions... …a strict believer knows ONLY about his religion, and does not want to know about anything else!
atheists are unbiased in their points of veiw, while the believer is focused only on his own believes and his mind is closed for accepting other ideas..
Religion is a way of life. A believer submits his will to moral values and behavior to that religion. An atheist doesn't have a diety and hence doesn't conform to any set of values so isn't really bound to anything. He might act religious based on his upbringing, but atheism in itself is actually the absence of any such guidance. He invents it as he deems suitable.
"I know some atheist who are behaving more religiously and living on Gods 10 commandments than some religious people, but they just don't believe in God"
Why is the problem being atheist? That is something personal like being religious. I know some atheist who are behaving more religiously and living on Gods 10 commandments than some religious people, but they just don't believe in God.
NO knowledge of any religion? i said, god or gods, not RELIGIONS.. "he knows nothing of a god or any god, so he doesnt need to speak of something he doesnt recognize.. "
Any object of worship is a diety, be it Buddha, the Nile river, Apollo or Allah. I would think an atheist doesn't believe in the existance of any diety worthy of worship per say.
when i said, a debate tries to deconstruct the ideals of the opposing ideology. if a theist and atheist will debate, who would ever think they'll be meeting at the same point? even if we look into philosophical debate or scientific debate, everything else will be dragged into it, and a resolve will never come out of it. debate is such a strong word, and mostly encouraged by theists. an atheist can debate but not to the point of falsifying the other's belief. a humble atheist gently understands. and he doesn't have to debate to make himself heard. so i presume this little talk of ours, is an intellectual discussion/sharing.. peace!:)
Yeah, you're right Tallg. I should have picked better words :p
I was trying to highlight a distinction between gods (superior, spiritual bodies greater than ourselves) versus spirits, which, in some religions, exist parallel to the phyisical world, if you get my drift.
Do you define atheism as not believing in specific gods (the sun god, or moon good, or Allah or the god of cold beer) but still believing in a general sense of spirituality?
I disagree man98. An atheist is perfectly entitled to debate about god and religion. Not believing in something doesn't mean you don't know anything about it. An atheist could have a far greater knowledge of a religion or religions than a non-atheist.
Someone who has read all the Harry Potter books many times over and seen all the films will have a great knowledge of Harry Potter and the world he lives in. That doesn't mean they believe in wizards.
2.disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods, or the rejection of theism. It is also defined more broadly as synonymous with any form of nontheism, including the simple absence of belief in deities.
for me, an atheist will not engage in a debate he knows nothing of. he knows nothing of a god or any god, so he doesnt need to speak of something he doesnt recognize.. maybe the right term for that, is being a humble atheist. because when i said, good atheist, the word bad comes out.. LOL
Firstly, there's nothing wrong with a debate. I think you misunderstand the purpose of debating.
Secondly, why did you particularly associate atheism and debating? It makes no sense. Should a good Christian also not engage in debates? What about good Muslims?
this is just a query.. gypsy.. haha a forum afterall is a place where we can have intellectual exchanges.. lol.. coz for me a debate is a stonger term.. discussion will be a lesser one. a more convenient one.. LOL
Most of my friends are like me - baptizied Christian and raised in 'Christian' families, but we never got to church, pray, or recognize the religious aspect of religious holidays.
None of my friends honestly believe in 'Christianity' but often people ask you which religion you follow (heaven forbid that you don't follow a religion) and usually we just answer 'Christianity' as a way of shutting up the person asking and to avoid further questioning.
If you said 'I don't believe in God' or 'I'm atheist' you'd probably end up copping some sort of tirade as they try to convert you to some particular religion.
But maybe that's just me and my Godless friends. Perhaps I should stop generalizing.
I don't think most westerners would class themselves as atheist. Even if they don't regularly (or ever) practice a religion a lot will still state that they are part of a specific religion.
I would have guessed that most of the westerners would be atheists. Or at least people who feel the presence of some sort of divinity but don't really strongly identify with any of the major established religions.
well, we all have our inclinations.. and i'd love to see how QL becomes a melting pot of all people irregardless of their beliefs or unbeliefs.. =) thanks!
Qatar's winter months are brimming with unmissable experiences, from the AFC Asian Cup 2023 to the World Aquatics Championships Doha 2024 and a variety of outdoor adventures and cultural delights.
Fasten your seatbelts and get ready for a sweet escape into the world of budget-friendly Mango Sticky Rice that's sure to satisfy both your cravings and your budget!
Celebrate World Vegan Day with our list of vegan food outlets offering an array of delectable options, spanning from colorful salads to savory shawarma and indulgent desserts.
Well dmightysolomon shouldn't have used such a silly analogy.
Desertmoon...um...ok :S
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
Gypsy, now YOU are over simplifying things. "I would assume that somebody, another human being, built it", that's of course assuming that there was somebody around with the knowledge and capability to do so. Now before such "people" were around, there was a magnificent ordered universe. I think that's what Dmightysolomon was referring to ;)
When I wrote 'agnostic' under religion on my employment form in Qatar, no-one knew what it meant :)
See link below for definition:-
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:Agnostic&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
------------------------------------------------------------
"Every adult of sound mind, should be able to choose to do whatever they want, as long as they cause no harm to others".
Mr. Paul, why cant it be proven??? tell me one thing what is lust, love, pain, joy, happiness??? r they some kind of chemicals in your body? what r emotions? who made a human mind?, did it just become complex due to evolution?, what is big bang?, just cuz there was light the earth got created? atheism is based on materialistic things, there is no such things and basically ignorance (no offense its my opinion).
--------
There are many reasons for war, but only few for peace.
--------
Gypsy said I think being an atheist ...
I think being an atheist means you know A LOT about religion and because of that have chosen to reject it.
Thank you for making me realise that lots of knowledge is of no use unless you 've got...errmmm guidance ...hehe....i didn't say you were mis-guided(or mebbe i did):p
Dmightysolomon, if I saw a house in the woods I would assume that somebody, another human being, built it. I wouldn't assume some all-knowing all powerful sky daddy built it.
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
Well, thankfully you said them and now you've clarified what you've said. And I agree, I think religion, for when it was created, was a moral catalyst for society and did start the long and winding path to our current ideas about Human Rights, etc.
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
and yet he or she is in the place that God created. Simple question, if you see a house in a forest, would you say that it just happened to be there or logical to presume that there is somebody who built that house.
The Big Bang theory can not be logically proven. Atheist knows that!!!!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Trying to use my own words against me eh? :) I was trying to say that religion helped to address these issues not erradicate them.
I also don't think that education as a polar opposite to religion. I think religion is education for our souls. So in my opinion education and religion helped to lessen the problem.
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
Sorry, this was where my point came from:
"Andrew, the majority of the examples of people doing bad as you put it were established BEFORE religion came to the people of a certain area. For example honor killings, female circumcision, etc. were practices that the people's convictions told them were upright and correct. It wasn't until religion came to the people that mankind started to see these barbaric acts have no place in society."
As I said the current BIG 3 have been around for over 3000 years if you start with Judaism, and Islam has been at work for 1400 or so, and honor killings and female circumcision has only been seen as bad for the last 50 or so. So what I was saying is you really can't give religion the credit for making people see these things as barbaric.
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
I don't think anyone said religion put a stop to it. What was said is that this practice is an extreme example of people using their own moral compasses to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong.
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
Well, either way, these practices are still occuring, so the assertion earlier in this thread that religion has put a stop to these horrific practices was wrong. Nothing has put a stop to them.
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
Nothing has completely stopped these practices because people are going to do what they want to do. So for those who wanted to abandon the practice whether they used religion or education they have left it and in turn spoken out against it. The rest aren't interested in change and no matter how you approach them they don't feel a need to do so.
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
Whether using the religion (and not just Islam, Christianity has been "adapted" to explain it as well) as an excuse or adapting it or ignoring the religion altogether, the fact is that religion did not put a stop to these practices, rather, education has.
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
Gypsy it is not that religion took its time. It is not about western feminism "changing or saving women from other parts of the world". It is about the simple fact that a cultural practice when clung to is very difficult to uproot. People will cling to any excuse to continue practing a cultural act that they like. That is why this practice as you noted continues until the day. That is not the fault of religion, rather it is the fault of ignorant people using the religion as an excuse to continue a heinous custom.
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
hashim, I wasnt asking u the question... I was rather being sarcastic with the editor of this thread.
--------
There are many reasons for war, but only few for peace.
--------
a roman catholic priest..
Sometimes these guys make me sick: it was Fred Hoyle who termed the "Big Bang".
Unfortunately, yes. There have to be some here or there, but doesn't change the fact that they're low in population.
You cannot be a true god since it took you a while to comee to this conclusion...
i was an atheists until....i realised i am the GOD.
You cannot say that it was "adapted"..
There is nothing in Islam for for that matter Christianity which can condone or even suport these actions. They are purely cultural and stem from lack of education..
Ok I can't possibly read all 111 posts that I missed, but a big thing I need to point out is that honour killings and female circumsion are cultural and predate Islam HOWEVER when Islam was introduced it was actually adapted to justify these acts and it's only in the last 50 or so years that people have even started questioning that they were wrong and the reason for that has NOTHING to do with religion and everything to do with ideas of feminism coming from the the West, which forced Muslim clerics to question these acts and subsequently condemn them. In fact if it hadn't been greater awareness of Human Rights these atrocities would still be happening (and still are).
The Big 3 Current Religions have been around for 3000 years, the idea that honour killings are wrong for 50. Boy, religion takes it's sweet time doesn't it. :P
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
and thanks as well.. friendship knows no barriers.. we can all end up as friends.. no matter how different our views are.. pleasant dreams everyone.. :)
I agree with you on that man98. I think this thread has run out of thread :) So stay safe and I wish you all a pleasant evening.
without these kinds of intellectual discussions would fundamentally limit the freedom of thought.. we all have certain views.. and its right, to admit, that at this point, we have understood each others argument so much, that we are capable of doing this althrough some gazillionth years from now and still end up.. asking each other.. really.. "why are we here?"
Im out drinking.
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Mr. Paul, if you (God forbid) lost a limb or any vital organ, what would you pay to have an artificial one implanted? We all read in the news how much people pay for such replacements. But what about the limbs and organs you already have? Are they worthless? No. So if they are so valuable, and you didn't make them yourself, the you owe somebody something. Isn't that common sense?
with neither side able to prove either way, but as time is marching on, i have to bow out now, as i have an appointment with Wranglers wild west bar, for a meeting with MR John Smiths Bitter.
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
for atheism doesn't base its stand on the weakness of the other (theism). there is simply no rivalry. that's the beauty of it, in atheistic terms, a life less complicated. "a farmer will just plow his own little field.." humans doesn't need to believe, humans needs to know.
In saying "Oh my God" when in trouble there is an inherent addmission that only He has the power to ward of what you fear might befall you. I don't think that would be annoying. After all, we as human beings are the only creatures with the intellectual capacity to recognise the order in our universe and to appreciate it and indulge in debates such as this one about whether a Creator exists or not.
as what dawkins wrote.. "isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Personally, I like to thank the year 10 alien student whose science project we are ;P
you are categorically stating that "there is no God."..
This in turn requires complete and utter certainty. This would require complete and perfect knowlege opwleSeone once said, that m i But can the atheist be of all things..
This is impossible.
Thats cos there is no one to thank.
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
well, as what the physicist said, "the universe can exist with or without a god.." and guess what, the scientist who proposed the Big Bang Theory (the universe is expanding) was, Georges Lemaître, a Belgian physicist and Roman Catholic priest.
We only sleep well at night because we know that tomorrow's another day, the sun will rise we'll breathe fresh air and go about our business taking for granted all that makes our lives possible. Don't we have to thank someone for having done such a great job that we don't even have to think about these things?
saying.. "hhAACChhOOO when you Sneeze.." or "Ouucchh" when hurt. its more of a result of a stimulus, caused by countless familiarity, a reflex of the human mind.. because other people say it often, you get to say it yourself, i doubt if a God would appreciate people shouting his name all the time, if there are accidents or untoward incidents.. wouldn't that be too annoying? 100million people per hour saying "Oh My GOd". LOL..
I'm not getting in a debate about it, but you asked. So yes: there are atheists in Qatar. I have nothing to add that wouldn't sound like Dawkins rhetoric.
"If you're going to believe in crap than you might as well be living in it"
when i studied philosophy our professor bought forward an interesting argument
"In order for one to be an atheist They must first believe in the existence of God"
Simply put in order to believe something doesn't exist you must first believe that it does.
I think its more unsettling to believe that there is no reason behind all that exists around us. If you see a cool lamborghini, don't you praise the designer? And when you see a universe full of perfect order, so perfect that we need volumes of science books to describe the laws governing it and keeping everything in place, how can't we wonder about its designer?
me, too, Mr. Paul
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
And why does EVERYBODY utter...."Oh my God" when facing a sudden tribulation? Is it just a habit or does it go deeper than that? I think human beings have an inherent knowledge of the existant of a Creator, but some feel safer to live in denial. I wonder why?
being an atheist is being brave. without leaning on to something in times of crisis, must really really be a test of strength. and i believe, atheists are strong people. no whining. no ranting. no finger pointing, or blaming as to who or why things happened in his life. its much much simpler to think that way. other than saying.. "it might be for a certan reason.."
when times are hard !
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Good point Brit.
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
Wha about Japanese Kamakaze Pilots... They did not fllow a religion..
Simply put , an atheist does not believe that any gods exist.
Personaly, I find that stange, because to me, faith and belief are very important to my life..
I always wonder, who an atheist turns to when times are hard or thanks when times are good. There must be someone.
I have been careful not to offend the religions of any participants, even if it might be atheism. And I assure you that I'm not asserting "my religion as being better than yours". I just believe that if we all have a correct understanding of each others stand point, maybe we can coexist better and understand our differences and points of agreement. Who knows, we might even reach a resolution and unanimously declare that God exists ;)
I feel ya Paul, but for the most part no specific religion has been named except for some of Man's examples. I think we have gone out of our way not to make this into a my religion is better than yours type of thread.
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
" my religion is better than yours " story that we get on here. Thats all.
To be honest, im getting a bit sick of all that type of stuff, it seems never ending !
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Well forgive me for wandering off into more interesting realms. I felt the question was more of an invitation to discuss the issue of atheism at a more intellectual level. And I belive the responses from the other participants says that they found this intersting as well. But if you want to strictly follow the question that opened this thread, well you alredy hve your answer I suppose ;)
Paul, that was the original question but this thread kind of changed mid way through. So why do you seemed so bothered?
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
Not "which of us believes in God " etc.
And who can prove he exists ? Not you, or anyone.All yer believe is what yer read in a book, and the saying is dont always believe what yer read.
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Mr. Paul, isn't atheism an argument about God?
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Just to answer your question thexonic, I am a muslim. And Muhamed taught us that God, or Allah in arabic, Jahwe in Hebrew, etc. sent Gabriel to all the prophet to reveal the same basic message: submit your will to Me, Worship Me and thank Me for what I have given you. Obey My law to your own benefit and I wil reward you and thank you for that. Muslims believe in the prophethood of all previous prophets and regard them with the highest respect.
Follower of which god u said???
--------
There are many reasons for war, but only few for peace.
--------
God becomes neccessary when it comes to the essence of humanity. Loving for your fellow human being what you love for yourself. Being kind to the weak and poor, to your wife and children, to your parents and to your neighbors. And God chose the best of us to reveal His guidance to them and convey it to the rest of us. Before revelation all the prophets were known by society to be the most virtuous and humble people. The pagans of Mekkah called Muhammed the "Honest and Trustworthy" before revelation and called upon his judgement to settle their disputes. Jesus was known to be the most compassionate man of his days. Moses was known to be the most just man in his society. And ultimately, God becomes neccessary when He calls us to rise from our graves and answer to Him what we did with our freedom to choose between right and wrong.
Hashim,
Maybe you have answered the rhetorical question about who people look up to when there is no God in a society/culture.
You are assuming that only God is capable of guiding people.
Firstly, God can't directly guide anyone, like your engineering lecturer *directly* guides you. God may come to you directly, or maybe a preacher wil act as intermediary... and this is where problems arise. But that's a seperate issue.
What I'm saying is that if your parents can guide you to become an engineer, and a lawyer can guide you to obey a contract, and a police officer can guide you to not park incorrectly, and a judge/criminal justice system can deter (guide) you away from murdering people, at what point does God become necessary?
In that context, an atheist is one who doesn't believe that you have to learn from a teacher who knows more than you and can lead you to become something better. But if you do become an engineer and then you and design ballistic missles, don't blame your university professor LOLOLOLOL
I agree Andrew, and I respect all the views of the esteemed colleagues in the debate. But I would say to your last point, is a desire to do good enough to guide you to it? Wanting to become an engineer is a desire. Can it be done without going through school university and practical application? I'm an engineer, so I know the answer is no LOL. But after going through all that to become one, I see the wisdom of my parents urging me to study and be patient when it gets so tough that you wanna jump out of the ninth floor window. And now I am grateful, and live a life that I am happy with. Others who didn't take that path are not so happy, but the choice was theirs all along.
all these Suicide bombers claim to do it in the name of their God.
And if yer wanna leave Religion outta this thread, then the simple question was, " Are there any Atheists in QL" and the one word answer is Yes !
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Mr. Paul... and what do you call the Tamil Tigers? The ancient Samurai who committed suicide for honour? Again, just blaming a whole religion for an abhorration by some individuals is rash judgement in my opinion. That's like saying all christians are terrorists because of the acts of the IRA. So lets leave that out of the thread if you don't mind.
I think we've reached the point in our discussion where we see and understand one another's arguments, but don't feel compelled to believe them.
Seriously, I do see your reasoning, Hashim, and I can see why you think the way you do.
Can I turn your argument on its head for a second and say that maybe God created man with a desire for doing 'bad' things (like the way children desire sweets) but with a deeper, ingrained knowledge that they should really do 'good' things (like when adults grow up and stop eating at MacDonalds).
So assuming that the above is true, and that God did make man with a fundamental knowledge of what's right and wrong, we could say that although an Atheist refuses to accept the existence of a higher God, he is still hardwired to believe in the right and wrong things that God has programmed within him.
In which case:
Acknowledging a belief in God will not make you a good or bad person, because inherent within you is a desire to good things.
haha that's right! that's hilarious man! atheist suicide bomber.. yeah:) atheism is apolitical..
My point is Andrew, that he didn't impose any order in us by default. Not that he made us bent on cruelty, no. He gave us exclusively the choice to become what we want to become. And the whole universe around us is full of signs of the perfection of His creation and that if we follow the path He which He conveyed to us through numerous prophets, then we will become perfect too. And for that He offered us the reward of eternal life in bliss and happiness after the universe fades away after having fulfilled the purpose which it was created for.
All these Marytrs do it in the name of some God....
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Its like having a student who you want to make into a successful professional. You have what he needs and you know what his potentials are and what can become of him. But you can't do it FOR him, he has to do it himself. You can only offer him your knowledge and advice. Only if he accepts it will he become what you want to see in him. Without freedom of choice this whole scenario doesn't exist.
Hashim,
So you are saying that God created the entire universe, complete with physical laws to stop our dear planet from hurtling into the sun, and to keep the moon up in the heavens, even creating electromagnetic radiation so we can use wireless internet...
but he also decided, just for kicks, to set the default for a human to 'self-centered'... so that we all try to kill one another and realise that we do, in fact, need god in our lives.
Is that it?
that is why an atheist will not debate a theist for this precise reason.. a(means lack)theism(belief)= lack of belief.. an atheist will not simply adhere the reason of a supreme being, because an atheist simply doesn't adhere nor recognize the existence of one.. well, i respect your views and inclinations my friend.. =)
Man98 God completes our upright character by teaching us the virtues of compassion, mercy, brotherly love, generosity. That surely is sthg good that helps us become what he wants us to be.. the crown of His creation.
In most heavenly religions, angels aren't held accountable because they obey without questioning Gods commands. God named us the cream of His creation because we alone were given the CHOICE to obey or disobey. Hence a human being who voluntarily obeys God and answers His call without having to is already your version 2.0 LOL
that without God we are all helpless and we stand at his mercy.. making us a pathetic offspring of this world.. such poor poor creatures..
"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard, who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous"
Take the laws of physics for example. Wouldn't the universe be in utter chaos if there weren't any rules to regulate it? What keeps our dear planet from veering off course into the heart of our lustrious sun. Now reflect that on human society. The only difference is that we, of all creatures in the world, have to make the choice to follow the laws that God offers us. We don't have to, and that is the basis of accountability that only human beings are burdened with.
I would have thought that if God wanted us to live in peace and harmony, he wouldn't have made so many people so eager to fight and kill one another.
Left to their own devices, some humans can be pretty darn awful. I always find it odd that God created people with so many character flaws. It sounds to me like he needs to do away with the current mob and try a version 2.0 who aren't so nasty to each other.
REALLY? That's funny, cause it sounds more like we need God to coexist. And our very nature proves that without His guidance we can't.
Hashim,
I think it's an odd sort of argument you make for the existence of God.
Am I right in interpreting your point that:
God made human beings self centred.
Without God humans would run amok and kill each other and destroy the world.
Therefore humans need God to ensure that they all behave.
Is that your point?
Surely this is an argument more against the existence of God than for it??
haha yeah hashimozotoyama, he kills us all.. i was just quoting something from the bible.. bout religions.. because, it was mentioned that honor killings are evil. so if someone is a christian and reads in the bible, that his God drowned this egyptians to save the israelites, so it won't be evil? anyway.. that won't matter.. :) any thanks guys for the collision of thoughts!:)
Everyone is responsible for his own choices man98. And there are so many examples of children who choose a different way of life than that of their parents after growing up. I agree that it is ignorant to blindly follow tradition, but coming back to atheism, what is HUMAN CONSCIOSNESS? Is that a fixed value or a variable one?
=) it's a way of life. and is based on human consciousness, and atheists, doesn't persuade people to share their unbelief.. well, if you can collectively, derive the thought that religion, is the basis of order in this world, that is because it flourished for centuries.. you know, i bet the religions of your parents, are your religions as well.. "if you are born in indonesia, then you will be a muslim.. from tibet, you might be a buddhist.., in japan a taoist.. in israel, a jew.." you see, we are commanded to accept the religion of our parents.. as if we have no choice during birth.. atheism offers personal freedom.. from standards not created nor set by your conviction.. you are obliged to follow. atheism, can never be compared to religion. they really are not on the same page my friends..
Let's leave God out of the debate man98. Cause if you consider that according to most heavenly religions, all our souls go to Him after we die, then He actually kills us all LOL.
it is said that the God of the Old testament drowned the egyptians, who were trailing the israelites, when the israelites, being slaves of egyptians, marched out of egypt..
Let's get back to the main topic as Philly correctly pointed out. What does atheism have to offer?
yes, it is bleak.. and can be considered evil, based on religious.. i understand you now. but you see, when talking to an atheist, good and evil is not recognized.. because evil translates religion. so a better term would be, inhumane.. peace brother!!
Without religion there would be as many convictions are there are human beings man98. I'm not saying there won't be any, but how do you then say which is the right one. And when they contradict each other, how would such a dispute be settled?
WHo drowned the Eqyptians in the sea?
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
Philly:
There are people who are atheist and maybe do bad things because they think 'who can punish me? there is no higher power'.
There are people who are religious who blow up innocent civilians on a bus who say 'well, god knows what I am doing is right so I should do this'.
My earlier point was that being religious is no guarentee that a person is what we could loosely term 'just' or 'good'.
Hashim:
I'm not making any claim on the 'justness' of any state, secular or religious. I'm saying that just because all the people are religious, in the case of Turkey, doesn't mean that the 'state' has to be religious.
If you want a debate on the various merits of criminal justice systems, I think we are in the wrong thread.
Andrew, yes people hide behind religion in "some instances".. However in the end the problem is the person not the religion.
when the egyptians were drowned when the red sea opened for passage for the israelites? this is genocide.
the crusades? killing millions of "heretics" because they did not acknowledge religion.
aborigines in the pacific, when conquered, became slaves..
so these are just "some instances"..
and there's a big difference between a car related to a person,.. and a religion to a person..
Actually Man I thought we agreed not to address certain religions. I am a Muslim not a Christian. So your questions about what is or is not in the Bible really should be addressed to another person.
My point is not misleading at all. The practices of female circumcision and honor killings are evil. What possible explaination can there be for killing an infant because she is a girl? This is EVIL. Are you trying to tell me that there is a justifiable reason to engage in the above mentioned activities?
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
Bottom line is, human beings are self centred by thier nature. A group in power will do all that consolidates its own power and wealth without respect to the poor and weak. Religion advocates ultruism to the better of all. That is the measure of whether a religion or belief is truly from a Higher being that has ALL human beings' interest in mind, and not only a few.
so you're saying the only basis of human conviction is religion? to lead a good life you need religion? so without religion, human conviction will not exist? conviction that to sustain its own survival, they need to care for their fellow human beings, so we without religion, we can't achieve this? historically. we can. whoever told us, that the world was conquered because of religion. and rampant killings of non-believers, or pagans, or atheists branded as heretics, do you think this was based on the conviction of one's religion?
Andrew are you hinting that Turkey is a just state? What about its attitude to the Kurdish minority?
Andrew, yes people hide behind religion in some instances. However in the end the problem is the person not the religion. If I buy a car and start running over people on the street, is the problem me or the car? I don't care what the PC cops say, some people are evil and the world would be better off without them (Hitler for one comes to mind). So we have to make a difference between the claim and the person making the claim.
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
you're point is misleading.. honor killings? evil? these are traditions.. and theists like you label this as evil. because it is in your ten commandments. but how about you setting yourself, as part of this culture, as someone born which his father or mother is a member of this "religion", would you consider this evil? like, euthanasia? killing in for the sake of the patient, if your part of the society that accepts it, you won't see it as evil. but rather a product of your society. and even female circumcision. or the lashing of someones back. or piercing of your body skin. tattoos of aborigines. first born offerings as stated in the old testament of the bible, so you will also consider this evil? its in the bible. or not?
And conflict between religious groups is a totally different debate that would change the topic, especially when generalized in that way man98.
Most countries around the world impose the rule of law without relying on bibles or torahs or korans.
This is a religious state, so why don't people obey road rules? Why doesn't your land lord obey the law instead of increasing rent by 20%?
The reason the rule of law breaks down in some countries, and remains strong in others is not, in my view, strongly linked to the presence of a state religion.
Turkey is, literally, a 'secular' state yet 99% of its population is muslim. Perhaps its a good example where the power of the state resides within the state itself, not on the back of a religion.
When people stopped adhering to religion these bad thing s started to resurface man98. That should prove that we do need religion to coexist.
Conviction in what man98? You said it. There must be a conviction is some posistive system that upholds justice, rights, peace, etc. The absence of that conviction leads to chaos. A system that imposes charity is surely more likely to alleviate poverty than having no system at all, or even worse, one that advocates the rich getting richer and the poor gettng poorer.
I do also concede that a lot of the bad things I mentioned (female circumcision, honour killings etc) predate 'modern' religions.
But you are now accepting that modern religion failed to eradicate these things then, right?
As Brandylady is saying, people are hiding behind religion to commit awful crimes.
Andrew the your sister got pregnant example is not true. I know many people who got rolled on because they did someone's sister or cousin wrong. Like I said earlier, honor killings is from the culture of certain people not from any religion. In fact honor killings is a perfect example of people getting together and making up their own rules. This evil practice is so deeply rooted in certain cultures, they have even changed or gone against their own religion in order to practice it.
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
My question would be: in a hypothetical atheist state, how would the law of the land look like. How would disputes be settled? Who is to say what is right and what isn't. These questions must be answered to guarantee the peaceful coexistance of human society. And similarily, an abhorration of a positive system of guidance will bring about chaos such ashonour killings and the likes.
I would argue that some of the worst conflicts have been between religious groups, not people just fighting for politics.
Look at the Middle East conflict - a land of people who believe strongly in two different religions, both of which supposedly teach tolerance and preach happy co-habitation.
If they can't make it work...?
The Taliban were/are seriously religious chaps, and they are hardly bringing peace and security to Afghanistan.
The Horn of Africa is full of religious battles too right now.
Mugabe won't give up his role as President, stating that 'only God can remove me'...
the list could go on.
Yes, there are plenty of examples of people fighting for political reasons too, to be sure.
like to believe that our loved ones don't just die, that there is something there after death, but I am also in need of proof, thats me, I believe what I see for my own eyes, and until then guess I will remain agnostic.
andrew, I agree, people hide behind religion to commit terrible acts upon others.
for me, the advocacy of every religion is not enough to uplift the human condition on poverty.. but to have solace on them is a precious thing for every human being. being religious person i guess can never be synonymous to being an upright human being. on my view, its our human conviction. our "own" convinction.
Andrew, the majority of the examples of people doing bad as you put it were established BEFORE religion came to the people of a certain area. For example honor killings, female circumcision, etc. were practices that the people's convictions told them were upright and correct. It wasn't until religion came to the people that mankind started to see these barbaric acts have no place in society.
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
I think you're missing the point, Hashim.
There are people who do some *seriously* bad things not DESPITE of their religion, but BECAUSE of it.
Again, I'm not trying to generalize, but in western culture if you're sister goes out and gets pregnant to her boss, you shrug your shoulders and say 'it's her life'.
There are some people who think that their RELIGION commands them to go out and murder her for bringing dishonour on the family.
One of the benefits of atheism is that it puts your own life into your own hands, and it also tends to make people think that what other people do is other people's business. So they don't go on crusades (literally) to stop people drinking alcohol, or fornicating, or whatever.
I don't want to distract from the main topic, but just as an example is there any precedent of atheism leading to a better coexistance of human beings in a society? By defenition atheism doesn't have anything to offer since it is the absence of belief and not a belief in something positive that can change life to the better.
yes, moral standards had walked a long long way before humans were able to establish a concrete one.. and we're luckier now, that we don't have to undergo those grave setbacks that happened along the course of human history..
I think when people stop adhering to a positive system of belief, that's when things start going wrong and chaos starts to spread among human societies. Its not the CLAIM to being religious that matters, its the adherance the way of life advocated by that religion that matters.
Okay. You're right. Saying you are a member of a particular religion may make you more likely to be a 'better' person (less likely to rape, murder or whatever) but it's no guarentee.
Please let's don't get into a distracting religious argument based on the relative merits of different faiths, but all I'll say is that there are plenty of well known examples of people doing 'bad' (we can more or less all agree that they are 'bad') things *in the name of religion - honour killings, capital punishment, the killing of innocent civilians etc.
I wonder what would happen if the Americans elected a President who said he had no faith in a religion, rather than one who is supposedly a 'good, christian man'.
My point is that if guidance can change the human state of affairs so dramatically to the better, then maybe we do need it.
That's generalising it a bit andrew. Take a concrete example: 1450 years a go the arabian peninsula was in chaos. Murder, rape, theft, burring infant girls you name it. The pagen arabs accepted that as their way of life although they recognised that it was causing a lot of misery. After Muhammed came, this all changed after moral values were established and adhered to. And a system was in place to make sure that these values were respected. 400 years later those same arabs were taeching philosophy, medicine and mathematics in Spain and passed on a lot of valuable knowledge to Europe in the process.
yes, based on our convictions of ourselves, and it is enough to lead an upright life. because at the end of the day, when we lay to bed.. what do we really want? we can ask oursleves that question each night. all we want is for our families to be happy, for our loved ones to be healthy, for our friends to be bubbly, these are all we want.. and these are the only things that will always matter..
"Every one of us is precious in the cosmic perspective. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another."
I agree.
I don't think that morality or ethics are linked to religion. There are lots of awful people who seem to claim that they are religious, and lots of lovely souls out there who don't follow anything.
Saying that you are religious doesn't make you any more likely to be a 'better' person. In fact there are many cases of people doing dreadful things in the name of religion.
If that is left up to us, then the result is chaos and anarchy.
Relative is an issue here. What if you have someone who believes that to take life is a virtue? There must be some sort of guidance that brings all human beings into a coexistace beneficial to all?
reaching to this human state, is anything but a journey, one might be a pastor or a reverend, or a biologist or a physicist, an engineer or an artist, in a certain level of human consciousness, it as a path being taken.. one might believe in the big bang or the garden of eden, but what really matters is how you live your life. morality is actually a state of mind. and never be considered a standard of life. it varies. it is relative. this life after all is relative.
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
That's like "its easier to accept that the big bag just happened than to accept that something caused it."
Surely it's harder to prove there is a god than it is to prove there isn't one?
People see proof of the existance of atoms and quarks until relatively recently. But the effects that were studied in the past gave a very high probability that they existed. So seeing isn't neccessarily believing.
I think it's just a question of perspective, hashim.
Some people won't believe in something until they see evidence that it exists (or is likely to exist). Others would rather believe in something until there is evidence that it does not exist.
I don't think one is necessarily the 'easy' way out.
Agnosticism is the easy way out. You can go through life ignoring religion and then recant it all on your deathbed.
Human logic is a factor in that. Even if one is an atheist, there are some scientific facts that are inescapable. Assuming one accepts the Big Bang theory which is very scientific, it remains a logical question of what initiated it. Cause logically, every effect must have a cause scientifically speaking.
Unlocking the mind.
I AM an agnostic fundamentalist. Some say this is a contradiction, since agnostics have no fundamental beliefs. They haven't decided anything, not even whether or not there is a God.
So how can they defend their path when they remain stuck at the first fork in the road? Even very tolerant people say, we are here on Earth to make a choice, and if you can't decide even the most fundamental religious question, you have failed.
I say, we make choices every day in our lives. We choose how to live, how to treat others and how to spend our limited time in this world. These are the most important choices we make.
God does not require constant affirmations of faith, but would be more interested in the way we treat our fellow creatures than in monuments we erect in its name or praises we bestow. I believe it is as valuable an activity to wonder about God as it is to worship it.
Faith is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. It is what we do with it that determines its value.
Some believers ask me: "What are the joys of being agnostic?"
This is what I tell them: "I don't feel joy or sorrow from it. But all I know is that I feel much more freedom to open my mind to possibilities. Religion locks your mind into a box frame and you don't allow yourself to step out of that box for fear of going against what your God tells you and keeps you captive, trapped and in control believing one way and one way only." I believe we all have capabilities to connect to the higher being, the truth of the universe and its ways and the ability to tap into that without religion.
In fact, there are probably more chances of tapping into the universal truth without religion than with it. Perhaps, at one time, there was a purpose for it (religion, I mean), but no more. Religion will disappear and higher conscience people will show their goodness without religion, and you'll be surprised that it is so easy and possible.
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Agnostic is NOT the one who isn't having no knowledge of religion, but rather who is not sure whether god is existing or not. Atheist doesn’t believe in God, coz he is sure there are no God.
Agnostic is the one who also doesn’t believe in God, but for another reason: he cannot know for certain whether there are or aren't any gods.
Why is it that if a person chooses to be an atheist he / she is seen as enlightened and educated about religion. Yet if some professes belief in a religion no matter how much they have studied they are seen as blind followers and astray? Hashim good to see you again.
"I don't think so. Homey don't play dat."
Homey Da Clown
Why is it so hard to believe that not all people believe in a God?
An atheist believes there is nothing out there to believe in. Why is that any less of a belief than someone who believes in something that is not tangible, and which cannot be phyisically experienced?
I think its the other way round andrew. There are so many claims to the existance of dieties, that to reject them all seems like the easy way out.
[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
I think the terms atheist & agnostic need to be defined. An atheist is a person who has made a conscious decision not to believe in or participate in any religion. An agnostic is a person who does not believe in or actively practice any religion, but remains open to accepting one. Sounds like splitting hairs, but there is a big difference between the two.
a human being doesn't need to believe.. instead, he needs to know..
I think to be atheist you may have put more thought into your decision to reject religion than a religious person puts into just accepting it.
I'd like to know what an atheist actually believes in. Cause the absence of belief is in itself not a belief.
an atheist should be well versed in the confidence of these religions.. reference points of his lack of belief..
sure, tallg.. even more... atheist might know about DIFFERENT religions, from different points of view, to have very deep and wide idea of various streams of religions... …a strict believer knows ONLY about his religion, and does not want to know about anything else!
atheists are unbiased in their points of veiw, while the believer is focused only on his own believes and his mind is closed for accepting other ideas..
I think being an atheist means you know A LOT about religion and because of that have chosen to reject it.
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
Religion is a way of life. A believer submits his will to moral values and behavior to that religion. An atheist doesn't have a diety and hence doesn't conform to any set of values so isn't really bound to anything. He might act religious based on his upbringing, but atheism in itself is actually the absence of any such guidance. He invents it as he deems suitable.
Isn't having no knowledge of religion called agnostic?
"I know some atheist who are behaving more religiously and living on Gods 10 commandments than some religious people, but they just don't believe in God"
Agree with you QS
Why is the problem being atheist? That is something personal like being religious. I know some atheist who are behaving more religiously and living on Gods 10 commandments than some religious people, but they just don't believe in God.
NO knowledge of any religion? i said, god or gods, not RELIGIONS.. "he knows nothing of a god or any god, so he doesnt need to speak of something he doesnt recognize.. "
Any object of worship is a diety, be it Buddha, the Nile river, Apollo or Allah. I would think an atheist doesn't believe in the existance of any diety worthy of worship per say.
Glad you agree with me qatarisun.
being an atheist DOES NOT mean having NO any knowledge about religion!!!
Your idea is absolutely wrong!
that's why debate never works.. world peace!!=)
What do you get when you cross an atheist and a Jehovah's Witness?
A guy who comes and knocks on your door for no particular reason, and gives you literature about nothing in particular.
who is a atheist? I am a Buddhist & can answer you if I know what is atheist ?
when i said, a debate tries to deconstruct the ideals of the opposing ideology. if a theist and atheist will debate, who would ever think they'll be meeting at the same point? even if we look into philosophical debate or scientific debate, everything else will be dragged into it, and a resolve will never come out of it. debate is such a strong word, and mostly encouraged by theists. an atheist can debate but not to the point of falsifying the other's belief. a humble atheist gently understands. and he doesn't have to debate to make himself heard. so i presume this little talk of ours, is an intellectual discussion/sharing.. peace!:)
Yeah, you're right Tallg. I should have picked better words :p
I was trying to highlight a distinction between gods (superior, spiritual bodies greater than ourselves) versus spirits, which, in some religions, exist parallel to the phyisical world, if you get my drift.
Like, are Buddhists atheists?
Do you define atheism as not believing in specific gods (the sun god, or moon good, or Allah or the god of cold beer) but still believing in a general sense of spirituality?
I was asking what the difference was between gods and deities. As one word is derived from the other I'd assumed they meant the same thing.
I disagree man98. An atheist is perfectly entitled to debate about god and religion. Not believing in something doesn't mean you don't know anything about it. An atheist could have a far greater knowledge of a religion or religions than a non-atheist.
Someone who has read all the Harry Potter books many times over and seen all the films will have a great knowledge of Harry Potter and the world he lives in. That doesn't mean they believe in wizards.
1.the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods, or the rejection of theism. It is also defined more broadly as synonymous with any form of nontheism, including the simple absence of belief in deities.
The difference being...?
for me, an atheist will not engage in a debate he knows nothing of. he knows nothing of a god or any god, so he doesnt need to speak of something he doesnt recognize.. maybe the right term for that, is being a humble atheist. because when i said, good atheist, the word bad comes out.. LOL
How do you define atheism?
The rejection of *all* gods;
Or just the rejection of deities?
Firstly, there's nothing wrong with a debate. I think you misunderstand the purpose of debating.
Secondly, why did you particularly associate atheism and debating? It makes no sense. Should a good Christian also not engage in debates? What about good Muslims?
LOL
lol - a good atheist must never consider, for even a second, that some sort of higher being could possibly exist!
further debates.. an endless one.. =)
So what if you're a bad atheist.
What's gonna happen? You'll burn in the hell you don't believe in?
omg! i can understand good and bad believer, but Good and Bad atheist?? :)
Why on earth would you think a good atheist does not engage in debates????
this is just a query.. gypsy.. haha a forum afterall is a place where we can have intellectual exchanges.. lol.. coz for me a debate is a stonger term.. discussion will be a lesser one. a more convenient one.. LOL
Most of my friends are like me - baptizied Christian and raised in 'Christian' families, but we never got to church, pray, or recognize the religious aspect of religious holidays.
None of my friends honestly believe in 'Christianity' but often people ask you which religion you follow (heaven forbid that you don't follow a religion) and usually we just answer 'Christianity' as a way of shutting up the person asking and to avoid further questioning.
If you said 'I don't believe in God' or 'I'm atheist' you'd probably end up copping some sort of tirade as they try to convert you to some particular religion.
But maybe that's just me and my Godless friends. Perhaps I should stop generalizing.
are you tracing them, man?
LOL, well than I must not be a very good atheist, cause I love a good debate.
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
atheism as a way of life.
I don't think most westerners would class themselves as atheist. Even if they don't regularly (or ever) practice a religion a lot will still state that they are part of a specific religion.
More of a boiling pot then a melting pot really. No end to religious arguments on this site.
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
I would have guessed that most of the westerners would be atheists. Or at least people who feel the presence of some sort of divinity but don't really strongly identify with any of the major established religions.
That's just my guess though based on my friends.
well, we all have our inclinations.. and i'd love to see how QL becomes a melting pot of all people irregardless of their beliefs or unbeliefs.. =) thanks!
For sure there'll be plenty. Do you want a poll so we can get some accurate numbers for whatever sort of census you're planning?
am bored
[img_assist|nid=73057|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
Yup, lots.
Visit www.qatarhappening.com