What is the real purpose of this life?

LOL, MissX: Now that makes sense, doesnt it?

"God created evolution!!"

There's no point Winn. You will only get frustrated trying to apply logic to a person who has accepted that the truth comes from one apparently all encompassing book. Never mind the fact that it's racist, sexist, discriminatory, full of unsubstantiated claims and has no basis for what it postulates, the people will always believe in it because they want to believe in it. Take comfort that as more and more knowledge of the world is learned, less and less people are inclined to believe in such religions. There will come a point when they can't justify fitting everything humans have learned into their religious theories.

I'll give you an example of someone trying to fit what science has discovered into their religion

"But God created evolution"

I will answer ur dirct question first. I am not asking for any rights, I am saying that the whole scripture is written to facilitate discriminatory treatment towards those who do not believe in it. This , in my view, is against the tenets of tolerance.

"Secondly, no disbeliever woman in the world is trained or knows anything about how she must conduct herself in front of an "outsider" and an "insider"."- looks like you have taken stock of every woman in the world, LF!! These kind of blanket statements only serve to show that you cannot look ahead of where ur nose ends.

"not mixing too much with disbelievers.....Shariah law on its soil is Saudi Arabia" - I guess any further discussion with you about tolerance and equality et al, would be completely pointless, considering these segregationist views of urs.

You all have a good weekend!

Hey Maa look at me....what no one wants to see....much

too young to focus but too old to see!

No disbelievers have any codes about what amount of their income must go to the poor every year. They don't have any set values(percentage) on amounts of charity that must goto the poor as an obligation. This is not to be confused with voluntary charity. In this context, im talking about obligatory acts of charity.

Secondly, no disbeliever woman in the world is trained or knows anything about how she must conduct herself in front of an "outsider" and an "insider". An insider is a family member of blood relation.(blood relation doesn't matter) An outsider is a family member (of opposite sex) who is not a blood relation and who can legally marry him/her. A lady is said to be not chaste who derives pleasure by displaying her beauty in the open. A lady who engages in attracting men by using strong perfume, wearing revealing dresses, etc loses her chastity as per Islamic shariah. The codes of dress in men and women is defined crystal clear. Any deviation from it becomes unacceptable.

Now that we've been talking about the "differences" that exists between a believer and a disbeliever, let me reveal a few more bitter truths to you. Even since Islam was choses by God as a way of life for mankind, God did mention that the disbelievers are here to exist no matter you present them OUR proofs or don't. This is what will become the reason to call doomsday.

The last prophet mentioned hundreds of guidlines to achieve the pleasure of God. A few among those are......not mixing too much with disbelievers, not to eat on tables where alcohol too is served, not to take part in any celebrations (apart from the 2 Eid), not to wear what the disbelievers wear, not to fast on days normally observed as fast by disbelievers, not to inherit their culture, to keep a beard so that you look different from a disbeliever, to live away from a disbelieving colony/territory/country. The only country that rightly applies Islamic Shariah law on its soil is Saudi Arabia. Other Islamic countries have become fairly liberal on this approach which will only destroy culture.

However, the above is to be observed not by showing hatred towards them, but by showing consideration to their beliefs and traditions and by inviting them to see the "light" of the day.

Winn, firstly you don't even accept that God exists and then you're asking for equal rights and incentives from God that he promises to give to the believers....I don't quite get your thoughts?

Do you think its very easy to be a true muslim? I guess i did mention to you that there is gonna be 73 sects of muslims and only 1 would be righteous to enter paradise. The rest of the sects will be in dire straights. The fate of disbelievers are beyond the scope of any mention here.

Hey Maa look at me....what no one wants to see....much too young to focus but too old to see!

Your explanation falls short, LF. It still doesnt say why it is mentioned a 'fellow muslim" and not a fellow human being. The fact that it is addressed only to muslims only bolsters my argument. The question is not who it is addressed to, the question is how it stresses on dealings of who it is addressed to towards others.

No matter what it is, the sentence i quoted above is wide open to be interpreted as what I said. If its purpose was to say, "Thou shalt treat non-believers with equal respect"then(surprise, surprise!!) it has failed.

and Excuse me! what proof do you have to say that disbelievers dont give charity or protect women's chastity? Sorry to break this to you, but nobody holds exclusive ownership on charitable activities.

".... and oneness unlike other communities."- Coming from someone who has not read about other communities and beliefs, this sounds absurd at best!! Most religious communities are as united or as divided as the Muslim community.

Watch these free videos-- you might get what you are looking for

http://harunyahya.com/en.m_video_index.php

And do share your feeling after that...

.What is the real purpose of this life?

.for me:

.one thing is, iv sent my neice to college.

(and her graduation day is this coming saturday (BS Electronics and Communications Engineering)

.

.congratz to me:) lol, im just so happy and proud.

.

.

.

.that's all......

.

The knife example is only mentioned for fellow muslims. It has nothing to do with "others". Islam is built upon brotherhood and oneness unlike other communities.

"Nothing that is not given freely and willingly cannot be taken from a Muslim, but from a non-muslim, you can take away what is not given freely and willingly"

No, you can't. The same code of conduct applies to a muslim towards any human being irrespective of his belief. In many many places the command from God is addressed directly to muslims and not "others" coz what is commanded is only understood and can be implemented by the believers....example acts of charity, avoidance of interest, protecting women's chastity, marrying more than 1 wife, etc. These acts are ordained to muslims wihout the mention of the disbelievers coz disbelievers don't consider these acts at all!

Qur'an calls upon the "believers" (and not just anybody) to give zakah (charity) to the poor and the needy because zakah is among the pillars of Islam and a disbeliever wouldn't do that anyway.

You took a wrong idea out of my previous note.

Hey Maa look at me....what no one wants to see....much too young to focus but too old to see!

LOL...LF! You just gave a new twist to the 'tolerant' Islam concept!! So for some 'apparent' reason, a muslim can point a knife at non-muslim but not at a fellow muslim(if I got u right). Nothing that is not given freely and willingly cannot be taken from a Muslim, but from a non-muslim, you can take away what is not given freely and willingly? You mentioned muslims killing muslims is proscribed. So what abt the rest? All of which goes to say that someone who doesnt believe in islam is seen as a lesser being with lesser rights.

How do you expect a follower to be at peace with the rest of the world, when the core concepts in his religion tells him that his treatment of justice and fairness should be based on double standards? Any God that tells me to give preferential treatment to ppl based on their beliefs is not for me. Same for any religion that promotes distrust, division and a superiority complex. Thanx but no thanx for ur offer of 'enlightenment'. I'd rathr be arrogant and lazy. Go on..feed that religion-of-tolerance-and-peace line to someone else ..

Amen Winn...

AMEN....

"simple yet complicated"

"makamal a anak"

Winn...the Qur'an applies separate obligations on a muslim towards a fellow muslim and a fellow human being whos is not a believer.

A muslim is not supposed to point or show a knife (or a weapon) to another muslim, let alone the idea of killing him! Now you see the sharp contrast going on around in the world these days. Muslims killing fellow muslims in the name of religion and political gains. This necessarily doesn't mean that a muslim can show a knife or a weapon to any other disbeliever for no apparant reason.

There also is a very clear mention to love and take care of one's neighbors. If a neighbor sleep w/o having food and a muslim living beside him eats full, its a matter of disgrace to that muslim.

As i said above, a muslim must regard a fellow muslim as a brother and wish and greet him peace. I can't explain this concept without elaborating on why are muslims any different that one who doesn't believe.

A disbeliever and a believer are two different human beings in the eyes of God and so the duties of a muslim towards both of them are obviously different!

Hey Maa look at me....what no one wants to see....much too young to focus but too old to see!

First of all 3hunk sure, how's that second wife you didn't tell your first wife about?

Secondly, Not all religions require you to prostrate yourself 5 times day, so obviously, by your belief, other religions are lazy too.

And I find it funny that you think the people who are out there actually trying to explain how this world works and search for real answers then sit back and say "God did it" to me that's lazy.

How can I accept the authority of something that doesn't try to exert it's will over me? There's no evidence that God exists, or that he cares what I do.

And I'm certainly secure enough not to need a belief in an afterlife. Frankly it's far more secure to be comfortable with the fact that after you die there's nothing then needing to believe in an afterlife so you can sleep at night. It's kind of like needing a nightlight.

3sure-hunk3r

You turn to religion because you need hope, you are too weak to handle the real facts and issues of life so you turn to a man made list of instructions on how to live your life. That is what religion is. It's a tool or method used to controll nations of peoples, it is a symbol of power, the Romans converted to christianity not because they beleived in god, but because they saw it as a tool to controll the people in their empire. Religion is not aout peace and harmony, it's about power money and greed.

Your proof of god is some wrttings in a book, which funnily enough was written by mankind.

Those that are religious are slaves to a way of life that was created by man, for man, to controll man.

You say us 'non beleivers' are afraid, lazy and arrgoant. Lazy? Are you aying every non religious person is lazy? how can one be lazy about duties that don't even exist?

Religion dumbs people down into living life like a bunch of cretins.

Unbelivers are afraid, lazy, arrogant and insecured!

1-afraid and lazy for the duties and obligations to keep once they confess their faith.( muslim should keep 5 times daily pryer)

2- TOO Arrogant to accept the superiority of GOD (muslim acknoledge the supremacy of GOD)

3- insecured, always striving to discover,invent something to support their wicked ideas and reasons for existance.(muslims are contented with what is given to them)

but they are seems to be nice to deal and to deal with...why? bec.humans is apparent they thought of what u give is what you get!...again they dont do that for god sakes coz they dont see him.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

Gypsy: You said it! cant see any further reason for belief. you just use it as a masterkey that supposedly offers you an easy answer to all the puzzles, without bothering to even read the puzzle!

jus browsed thru a coupla articles.

Found something that bemused me...

1. "Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly."

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IC0107-322

Wonder why it was not said that "Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow human being...."? Are the rest 'lesser' beings? Any reasons, VB, LF?

2. "equality of all the Believers without distinction of race or class, the superiority of individuals being based solely on piety"-

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/articles.asp?ref=IC0212-1812&p=2

I would have preferred something like "Equality of all human beings, without race, class or belief, the superiority of individuals solely based on the benevolence and tolerance of their actions/life"

The biggest problem I have with most religions is this "Us and Them" psychology that has been used from time immemmorial.

Also why should there be only one God. The same theories you argue for the existence of God can be made to justify having dozens of Gods with a nice departmentalised structure with clearly demarcated territories. Like

God-in-charge for rains

God-in-charge for fire and making universe

God-in-charge for foetus development and brain

God-in-charge for Doha 'road-to-corniche' , no?

You can even have a "God-in-charge for frying non-believers in triple refined sunflower oil on the judgement day"! What say? The more, the merrier!!

I took a look at it too, I like this:

Psychologically the stress results from the following factors.

Fear of the unknown, and our inability to recognize, foresee and control it.

Loss of things, and people in our life dear to us, and our inability to recover these losses or accept them.

Our inability to see through the future. In fact we might be more stressed if we do see the future.

Conflicts between the mind, and the reality and our failure to accept the reality (i.e. the phase of denial). It is the lack of the inner peace due to our internal conflicts which leads to the external disturbances in our behavior and affects our health.

LOL. Religion, easy answers to all of the above so you don't ACTUALLY have to deal with your stress!

LOL...you two have really taken up a case to convert me, aint you! I will browse thru the home page, but it would be easier if you guys can specify some particular page you would like me to read/comment on.

browse through the home page as well.

LF: Have gone thru the link and posted reply too .

Allright guys back up i'm armed with a baton and the truith

Winn.....the link VB wants you to see is:

Take sometime to go through this and let us know your feedback. I can get you more links for your questions :)

http://www.islamicity.com

Hey Maa look at me....what no one wants to see....much too young to focus but too old to see!

Purpose of life is to live.

How you live it depends. you do good to others and live it makes you feel good you do bad it makes you feel bad.

But Purpose of life is to live and experience life good or bad depending on your action.

Why this universe is created. the first thing is this universe is not created, it happened naturally i call naturally created(means not created for any purpose just happened). it is naturally created by natural forcess you call it god. mainly the force in a atom or nucleous. the same force is there is emptyness in universe. when u go out of earth there is empty space. we call it empty. but it is not empty. this is dark universe. there is the same force present. this force has the capacity to create a rock which is lifeless or a human being who can think. the same force present inside you. where you can create miracles using this force

Why you have any religion? becouse to control human beings and get order to humanity. some intelligent people(jesus, Mohd.) gave rules of religion so that humanity survive for long time on earth. religon is only for humans not for animals.

If your purpose in life is to worship the "creator" then good for you.

I meant those who preaches about the right path as if they have been "there".

In my opinion there is no religion that can guarantee to take you to your final "destination".

For me the "golden rule" is enough, as long as I am not harming anyone I can do my thing and enjoy this short life of mine according to my wishes and not for anything or anyone for that matter.

And if that is not favorable to the "creator", Then be it..a single lifetime is enough for me..I don't want to live now and devote all of it in preparation of the so called "afterlife". What if it's just a myth?

"simple yet complicated"

"makamal a anak"

The purpose of life is to worship(Live according with rules) God and be nice to your parents.

Quran: "We haven't created the Jin(Satan) and Insi(Human), but to worship God/Allah"

Davidak89: I pass the baton to you, and retire to commit my daily dose of sin intending to take full pleasure of it, thumbing my nose at all those self-righteous, holier-than-thou, religion spouting fellas out there!

( Make sure you dont kill urself with the baton, this can be quite exasperating, considering that all you need is to be left alone to practise what you believe in without some nosy, know-all preaching fairy tales to you)

and I thought Ashghal had something to do with Doha roads! Folks, next time you got trouble with stuff, dont call up Kahramaa or Ashghal. Zimbly call our hunk here, who is on a direct hotline with the almighty.

What if i beleive in wizards and ghouls? Does that make me arrogant? Cause they make just as much sense as your creator.

And when did he tell us this?

david if you dont worship our creator then most probably!

because he told us to worship him but you don't its simple as that.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

So me not being relgious makes me arrogant?

!!!

spike who do u think is arrogant the one who claim to have the right religion or the one who does not recognized the sovereignity of God.

-you walk on the road to corniche a cemented roads.. beutiful scenery,freely u stroll...tax free do you give thanks to those who built this? what more to the creator? did u give thanks? who is arrogant now do you think?

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

The real purpose of life is to worship our creator,but take note! to worship him the way or in the manner he (our creator) wanted us to do, not the way, we human want to do to worship him. That is why our lord sent messengers to teach the people how to worship him.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

At some point you have to give up debating. To be fair, religion is based on faith, and faith alone. To argue that your unsubstantiated beliefs, which is the very definition of faith, are the truth, makes for a rather juvenile argument. Have you ever tried arguing with a child that his imaginary friend doesn't really exist, you will never ever convince that child. Science will never be able to disprove religion because there is no evidence to disprove.

VB: Thanx for the link. But it all the link talks is about Arab/Muslim Scientists of yore. I have never denied that there were muslim scientists. My question is about the part of religion in their contribution.

Will you attribute to their respective faiths, what Einstein, Newton or Pasteur discovered?

Abt the rest of your passionate rhetoric, no comments.

Those who are claiming to be on the right path are arrogant as there is no real basis of a "perfect religion". I can go to Corniche using different roads.. don't tell me which road I will take.

"simple yet complicated"

"makamal a anak"

Please check updated the link again...

Peace,

Allah, beginning with the name, the most gracious, the most merciful.

It is imperative to ascertain before we give any presentation, which are the target audience and their level of understanding. I must say and feel honored to present it to the most respectable and intelligent group of Qlers’s

Let’s first of all go through first and basic foundation of Islam is FAITH (IMAAN)

Beliefs Relating To Allah's Self And His Characteristics (Allah Ta'ala's Monotheism [Oneness] And His Qualities)

Allah is one. He is Pure, He is Unique, and he is free from faults. He is the total of all qualities and excellence. No one in any thing is equal to him or is level with him or higher than him. In his qualities of characteristics he has always existed and will always remain. Eternity is only for his self and his characteristics. Except Him, whatever exists hasn't been there always, but in fact has been created by Him. He is from Himself meaning no-one has created Him. He is not a father of anyone, nor a son, nor does he have a wife nor any relations. He is self sufficient from all this. He is not dependant of anyone on any matter and all are dependant of Him. To give wealth, to kill, to give life are all in his control. He is the master of all, He does whatever He wishes. Nobody can challenge His order. Without His will a grain does not move. He is aware of all things hidden, shown, what has happened and what is going to happen, there is not the slightest thing that is outside His knowledge. The world, the universe, every single creation in existence has been created by Him. Everyone is His servant. He is more beneficent towards His servants than a person's parents. He is the one who forgives sins and accepts one's repentance. His hold is so strong that no one can escape without His willingness. To give one respect or disrespect is in His control. Whoever He wishes He will give them respect, whoever He wishes he will give them disrespect. Possession and fortune are in His control, whoever He wishes He will make rich, whoever He wishes He will make them poor.

Gypsy: I guess VB was talkin abt me and LF!!

VB: Couldnt open the link you sent me. you sure its the right one?

Agree with you on some points, VB. I, for one, am against using science to justify faith. Anyone who does it, should do more of self reflection and find out how strong his faith is and on what foundation its resting on.

Abt the answers that religion gives you, it is upto the individual to decide whether it makes sense to him and whether he wants to believe in it. To summarise, I would say its more of a matter where you let ur heart decide!

LF: I guess I can safely infer that you havent read texts of any other religion. Which means you have no FIRST HAND idea of what they talk about. All you might know about them must be based on what these self styled religious gurus write about them in articles/blogs meant to look down on other religions/beliefs.What makes you think that other religious books dont match up if you havent read them in the first place? I mean, if you dont know what they are about, how dare you judge them?

My humble suggestion, my dear friend, is to read them with an open mind and arrive at YOUR OWN conclusions. Chances are you might end up comprehending a lot about ur own faith. You might then come to believe that you dont, aftr all, fill that big a pair of shoes, as you think .and then you would be in a much better position to tell people how right their belief's are!( something which you seem to love doing)

:-p

popie: make sure ur cheque reaches me before ur ambassador!;)

You can find sites like

http://www.islamicity.com/Science/scientists

where you can get the information you are looking for.

If we were trying to show that Science (and Technology) are different from religion, yes that is surely the case.

Science can only tell us "How the Universe Works ?" and Technology (i.e. Applied science), makes use of the answers provided by Science to improve the lives of human beings.

But Science cannot answer the question "Why the Universe works the way it does ?", "What is the purpose of this Universe ?",

"Is there a purpose at all ?", "Is there anything beyond, something that we cannot perceive ?",

"Is Morality relative or there are absolute defintions of good and evil ?"

These are all questions that sicentists will claim are the domain of metaphysics (not physics), and non-scientists will say are questions of spirituality or religion.

So you could see Science and Religion and trying to answer different questions, and hence cannot be the same.

Hope this helps.

I should send my most hard headache ambassador to your temple for training.

Winn,

I know why some people prefer to confirm when confronted with controversy to their own beliefs. Their faith is weaken by reckoning!! :-p

Westerners will do a mental count of Hadji's inside any aircraft, at any airport, before take off...

Peter Russel

2 Indian science post graduate bashing at QL for what? Proving your own PoV's. PEACE

My dear friends Noah (PBUH) preached for 900 years and at the end HE could not convince his own son to join him at his ARK. So please don't try to impose our faith on others.

Head bashing? Why can't you accept that I don't think any of those things happened, that they are as true as the idea that the sun is Apollo's chariot and Prometheus gave us fire.

Oh...now that you've already read it then therez absolutely no point in proceeding with this thread!

And if i'd ever want to read books of other faiths, it'd only be Old Testament or the Talmud of Judaism. The rest don't match up!

Hey Maa look at me....what no one wants to see....much too young to focus but too old to see!

First of all, since you are claiming that Quran explains all these, why dont you give me the quotes where these things are explained and based on that i will give you the refernces. (i have them, but they are all scattered around here and back home, will hav to search again)

Mind you the quotes have to be specific with unambiguos refernces and not something that CAN BE read as they knew it then.

Again the explanation of how and why universe came into being, how do you verify the explanation is true? Fire was made milleniums back.

As for the rest i will wait for the exact quotes.

"No doubt the mayhem and the killing is somehow related to Islam but this ain't what Islam says."- Could you read the portion on Islam's stand on non-believers? Again, I say proof of the pudding. My humble suggestion is that people who want to convince others about their faith/way of living should first set their own house in order before starting to preach. Leading by example and all that. you would be able to convince more people by the way you live than by giving sermons and so-called 'proofs'. in fact you wouldnt need to give sermons.

"The Book says that only by following the codes of the Qur'an can a person be good enough in the eyes of God."- wHY SHOULD i SUBSCRIBE TO IT?

"...i'd ask you to read a few pages arbitrarily from the English Qur'an and see if you grasp anything."been there done that. As an added note , may I ask you how many books on other faiths have YOU read?

VB: I am not a post graduate, if you were referring to me. and I did not start bashing anything. I do not try to convert people to my line of thinking. But when someone comes along who cannot accept the fact that other people need not subscribe to his views and proceeds to talk all-high n mighty, i guess letting him get away with that would not be wise. Again, i have no problems with any one believing in any religion as long as he respects other ppl's beliefs and doesnt sneer at them. I believe that religion never makes anyone a better person than anyone else, jus coz he believes in it.

BELIEVE AND LET BELIEVE, is what I am saying.

Winn...you asked about some facts that Qur'an presents. I'd paste this self compiled note from another note of mine running elsewhere in a thread.

"Does Harry Potter, any fairy tale book or any damn sensational book explain how and why universe came into being? How fire was made? What is the significance of mountains on earth's crust? Why is blood permeated meat (non slaughtered) toxic for consumption? Which part of the brain performs decision making functions? Does science explain how death is actually carried out? Does science explain which part of the body the first to undergo lifelessness and which one is the last while on the deathbed? How does a foetus form in the womb?

These are just a few questions out of many many more. I want you to get back to me with names of books, scriptures or whatever you find that existed in 579AD i-e 1430 years ago from now. I want you to get as many sources as you can to find out books that answered these questions then. Don't forget to mention the names of the authors too!

I'd answer these questions for you. You 'd then find out that many of these facts were unknown during those times".

Hey Maa look at me....what no one wants to see....much too young to focus but too old to see!

Winn: "Point being, what tells you that you need to worship that which you cant comprehend? We are not cavemen anymore, my friend!"

You've a point here that Qur'an also talks about. People do ask why does God want us to worshipp him. Is HE not okay with just that we condider his existence and thats it?

The Book says that only by following the codes of the Qur'an can a person be good enough in the eyes of God. Only by submitting one's will can a person be virtuous enough.

But don't confuse this with the state of world peace today. No doubt the mayhem and the killing is somehow related to Islam but this ain't what Islam says. It's something that Islam is these days tagged as.

If you really serious about finding if theres any weightage in my arguments, then i'd ask you to read a few pages arbitrarily from the English Qur'an and see if you grasp anything.

Qur'an has a miraculous revelation and you still can feel it today. But you must open and read it yourself.

Hey Maa look at me....what no one wants to see....much too young to focus but too old to see!

Yeah Gypsy...magic and witchcraft was so widespread that they (non-believers) were actually able to defeat many prophetic powers endowed unto them (the prophets) from God. The best example is of the sticks turning into serpents.

But i know how scared you're of the "talking snake" and the "black stone" and Mary's virgin birth. Im gonna have to do a lot of head bashing to get you proofs....but only if you wanna accept them!

Hey Maa look at me....what no one wants to see....much too young to focus but too old to see!

You borne becourse of you like to see beautiful,good things from youe eyes....and you like to hear sounds(like music,whisperings) from your ears.....and you like to smell fragrance from your nose....and you like to taste sweets from your toung......and you like to feel comfortable from your body.....and you like to think dreams from your mind.......thats why we borne....if you GIVEUP all those things ,you will never borne.It's mean you will never die.If you make a small desire for 1 small pin,its course to give you a birth.So then try to GIVEUP all those things,then you will feel the freedom.Think about if we dont have any burden on our head ,how free is our head.......so why you try to keep heavy head with you.

Univers not created by any one.It was created by ourself.Becourse for us to borne.Beocourse we have desire.............IF YOU GIVEUP ALL THOSE YOUR DESIRES YOU WILL BECOME ENLIGHTEN............

1.LF: so far, you have not presented any convincing facts and proofs. (emphasis on convincing)

"if you ask me to show proofs, i can't do that now and thats the beauty of this faith"- This is what I want you to realise. That faith is not based on proof. That if proof was possible, faith wouldnt be needed.You sound so much better and different than the guy who started this post challenging all and sundry that, "I invite you all to mention "foolproof" arguments and not just any bull***t." and "The mediocre wud keep away from presenting any arguments coz they don't know what to say, they never did."!! ( in fact are you sure this is you?):-p

We dont have to meet at the corniche , you can send me the pics,data, links would do too!

I wasnt furious at the miracles. i thought it was hilarious that grown up men believed in that too!

DO tell me how it has revolutionised society. and remember, revolutions doesnt have to be positive all the time!

Abt gitanjali it, transcends time. It has no past, present and future thats why its called an eternal melody!

"Logical reasoning has no basis to understand spirituality."- Exactly my point, my dear friend! They are mutually exclusive. You choose one.

I know old folks who have learned about computers at 75+. It depends on how open ur mind is to possibilities.

Even if he doesnt understand the concept of software, he would be fine as long as he doesnt bow down in front of the CPU and start singing hymns in praise of the 'miracles' it is capable of achieving. That would be FUNNY, aint it?

Point being, what tells you that you need to worship that which you cant comprehend? We are not cavemen anymore, my friend!

"If people can't imagine and understand science, how the heck will they grasp spirituality?"- LOL, who told you that understanding science is a pre-requisite to understanding spirituality? Infact a lot of people who embrace spirituality, dont know the first thing abt science. The mindframes and mental capabilities needed for both are entirely different.

Just for the sake of argument, let us ,for a moment agree that there is God. Why should anyone worship him/it(?) in the way YOUR religious text tells him to. Infact why should one worship him at all? I do not completely understand a lot of natural phenomena, but where would worshipping them take me?? Believe me, my friend, every single human progress is indebted to people who defied dogma and toiled beyond escapist beliefs.

MD/Gypsy: Lol :)

Winn: VB has his convictions but he has already showed me that he can discuss a matter without trying to impose his beliefs :)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

LOL. No not talking about you MD. Just, ya know, that widespread magic ancient Egypt had. :P

I hope you're not talking about me, gypsy. I can't remember being 'widespresd'.

Magic was more widespread then? ya-huh :S

As for your computer example, that fact is that you have the computer in front of you, you may not be able to explain how it works, but someone can, and you can see, touch and feel it working. It's not just a book that says, a long time ago, there was this thing and it worked, but it doesn't anymore, and you believe it.

And as far as the Limca book of records goes, it's meant to hold feats performed by humans who have extra power, bodily senses, better control of body equilibrium, etc. Those are not to be confused with something supernatural and superhuman. I do believe that some men can withstand high voltage of electric shock. Some may pull an airplane, an electric locomotive, and hold a chopper from taking off in the air, etc!

These are only eye popping examples but can't challenge spirituality of divine powers. Divine powers are beyond anyone's belief and reasoning and hence they're rightly termed.

During my college days, students had a tough time understanding Lenz's Law coz it violated the "Law Of conservation of energy" which made it pretty clumsy to understand. If people can't imagine and understand science, how the heck will they grasp spirituality?

Hey Maa look at me....what no one wants to see....much too young to focus but too old to see!

No matter how many and how convincing proofs and facts are presented to you Winn, you'd deny those with a multitude of excuses learnt from present day world. Humans actually have a hard time digesting things that they can't see. And if you ask me to show proofs, i can't do that now and thats the beauty of this faith!

If I could show you proofs, I'd 've met you somewhere at the corniche and show'd you what you wanted to see! We wouldn't have been sitting here headbashing...right? And with you, Gypsy too might've got interested...who knows!

Scriptures (from Christianity, Judaism and Islam) say that the "Children of Israel" and the "Pharaohs of Egypt" were shown numerous miracles by every prophet who came unto them, but they still didn't believe. Instead they used their own magic (magic was widespread then)to counteract and falsify the truth. God made their hearts to be adamant to the beliefs . What makes you think you'd believe at a time when therz no prophet to show miracles?

I see how furious you got Winn, at the very mention of the moon splitting, the river nile (the one in Egypt!) dividing apart, the raising of the dead, etc....obviously so!

I can't show interest in Harry Potter, Tagore's Gitanjali and other fairy tales coz they're "fairy tales". They don't refer to anything in the past, present or the future.

And since you ain't spiritual, you won't rely on anything unless it is accompanied by a proof which is utter absurd cause there would be no meaning in asking you to "believe" it. You'd believe anyway....right? This is what spirituality all about.

THE SUCCESS OR FAILURE OF A VENTURE USUALLY PROVES ITS WORTH, IF IT DOES EXIST FOR LONG AND REVOLUTIONIZES A SOCIETY. This version holds as much truth as Winn's!

I must appeciate Winn's logical reasoning. Logical reasoning has no basis to understand spirituality.

Lemme give you a scenario for logical reasoning. Lets say our grandpa (they lived in a non tech savvy environment) comes to us asking to understand how does a computer work. I guess you'd have no big deal explaining him the hardware stuffed inside that vertical box coz he can "see" what you explain. Now comes the nasty part. How would you explain him what the software thing is all about? How would you explain him if he wants to touch and see the software? Wouldn't you be at the end of your wits, if he asks to touch it? Wouldn't you scrath your head if he says "where is it"? I bet anyone would have a hard time explainin him what this software thing is all about? Why can't he see it?. You might tell him it works only while you switch on the computer, etc etc.

No matter how hard you explain him, he'd be unable to grasp the idea coz he can't see it and his mind is too undeveloped for this kind of technological reasoning and understanding.

In this case can he deny about the existence of software inside the computer(just because he can't see it or its effects)?

Hey Maa look at me....what no one wants to see....m

uch too young to focus but too old to see!

Also, VB, the reason for my taking the cigarette example was to say that people believing or leaving a relgion doesnt prove anything!

You are most welcome to come forward with details, as I firmly believe that its quite possible that what I know might not the final version of the story of life. I am open to accomodating other beliefs and altering my own view points (when new facts are presented) bcos they were not dictated by what was drafted centuries back but arrived upon through my own thought process.

Nice weekend to you too!!

Gypsy: Aint it weird how it unsettles ppl when faced with beliefs contrary to their own. They HAVE TO make you confirm!! :-p

sorry to say, you are wrong :)

I am not talking about general miracle, which magicians do and extra skilled people do as per LIMCA or Guinness book of Records.

I am describing about special powers provided by Allah to his chosen messangers such as to cut the moon into 2 pieces, bring back the sun after sunset, make alive a dead person, etc, etc....

My quote

"What is the percentage or number of people you know or global statistics who turned down from Islam...at the same time the global statistics of how many adults (sensible) people embrace and accepted Islam? and WHY?"

- Your reply doesn't answer properly in the context...still waiting for your response (there are 3 questions above).

The reason I said 'Modern Science and Technology is NOT a religion' bcoz many comments above wanted a scientific proof of God, Angles, souls, etc, etc, which are claimed by Quraan.

There are several scientific and techonological advancement happened on this planet, which has relevance/linked to Islam; I need to collect all supporting to prove it to you, give me some time till next week.

Agree completely Winn. It doesn't effect me if my neighbour worships one God or seven, but it does effect me when they start trying to make me live by their beliefs.

in all communities and countries; it is our responsibilty & call, whom we shall response and whom to ignore.

I will revert to you with some more supportings, as you confirmed that you are flexible, listening and open to change if convinced.

Thanks for such fruitful communication and Have a nice weekend.

LOL...VB !! you really believe in that cutting the moon and making a dead person alive n stuff! Then i bow my head and will make a retreat. no amount of rationalising would work with some one who believes these were done jus coz a book written centuries back tells him so. Btw, what is stopping you from believing fairy tales and harry potter?

As for global statistics of those who turned down Islam, i donot know how anybody would be able to compile such a data. There are 6 billion plus ppl and you asking me how many knew abt Islam and how many turned down? You gotta be joking.

My response, to put things in context, to leatherface's comment "You might wanna consider thinking on why a muslim never turns away from his beliefs. Why don't they convert into something else? " was that I knew such people, but not that I knew abt statistics of such ppl all over the world.

and how do you verify that every person who embraced Islam was sensible. Statistics cant help you there, buddy!

About WHY anyone would embrace any religion, there is no single universal reason. Everyone has their own reason. Could be ideological, could be convenience( as in to marry someone you love and so on). Like the Mahatma once said, there are as many religions as there are people on this earth.

A technological advance having relevance to or mentioned by a religion is one thing, it being caused exclusively because of that religion is totally different. My question was about the latter.

and btw, do note that quite a few of my questions in the posts above are also unanswered.

VB and LF: I have no issues with people believing in anything, for all I care you can believe in pink unicorns and I would say more power to you.

BUT

I have an issue with people strutting around proclaiming that their belief alone is the right one and all the people who do not subscribe to it are either dimwits or poor misguided souls, whose redemption is a divine responsibility placed by the providence on ur able shoulders. in short, my issue is not with the religion per se, but the insensitive, arrogant and know-all-smart-ass MANNER in which people propogate it. Its a big time IRRITANT.

VB:

About people with special powers(miracle): you have magicians, you have people who are transcedental meditation experts, there are people who can levitate, there are people who can bend metal by focusing their mind on it, there are people who have pulled trains with their teeth. Are they all holy and sent from above to prove something? Then the LIMCA book of Records must be something of a revelation, right?

About Global statistics: There are millions of people who smoke. and that includes doctors and scientists. DOes it prove that cigarettes are beneficial to health? As I said before,

"SUCCESS OR FAILURE OF A VENTURE DOES NOT PROVE ITS WORTH. iT ONLY PROVES HOW WELL IT WAS IMPLEMENTED."

There are 1000's of things that has helped and hindered progress of science and advancement. Its a complex interaction and no one factor can claim the credit. Do you believe that any particular advancement would not have been there if there was no religion? Do tell me if you think so.

Also, for the sake of record, I would never call modern science and tech a religion. that would amount to slander, i s'pose! ;)

with your comments.

I always says it is purely a blind faith and matter close to ones heart. We could only explain what a religion taught us but could never make anybody to bend to our belief on what I believe. That's the reason God has sent so many messegers with special powers (miracles) to prove that there is ALLAH.

We teach religion at the young age when the mud/sand is soft and can shape into a stiff vessel when it grew old...

but WINN can you tell me what is the percentage or number of people you know or global statistics who turned down from Islam...at the same time the global statistics of how many adults (sensible) people embrace and accepted Islam? and WHY?

Believe me that Modern Science and Technology is NOT a religion but Islam helped Science to progress and achieve advancement.

Well, The Quran says

"2:285. The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) the believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers We make no distinction between any of His messengers and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying."

The essential requirement of a muslim is to believe in God, Angels, Messengers and Scriptures. Just think, if we are presented with a proof, why would we be asked to believe? A muslim should keep this in mind and not try to prove the existence of God, Angels or the uthenticity of Messengers and Scriptures as MD pointed out above

"If he 'needs' science to support his religion he is not 'believing', he is doubting..."

LF: Remember what i said about an answer based on a religious book not being "foolproof".?

Until now you aren't racionalizing, if we don't do it than, why are we diferent from unracional animals?

Gypsy: Gonna download Religiulous and give a look and will come back to you later :)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

In response to your OP IMHO looking at religion for answers to your question is not going to yield any results.It is for an individual to figure. No religion answers this question correctly. All of them go by their doctrines and they all seek to promote their own virtues. You will find this answer through thinking and introspection.

Life is Beautiful...Indeed!

Bill Maher is and was never married, so he's not an adulterer, and who he chooses to date has no bearings on his view, which I agree with for the most part (not his poltical views mind, I'm a liberal not a libertarian).

"You might wanna consider thinking on why a muslim never turns away from his beliefs." Many do, and are killed for it, and many don't practice but simply don't denouce it because they are afraid.

VB, the difference is that Winn and I have heard all the religious arguments, I attended church with my family, My grandmother is very religious. Yet I just can't bring myself to believe that a black rock is a symbol from God, that a snake spoke and that there was a Virgin Birth. Might as well believe that we all carry the souls of dead aliens killed by the OverLord Xenu in us.

Leatherface: "...but fails badly to put together the facts that Qur'an offers. The facts that Qur'an states is exceptionally comprehensive and no man can do this."

and the facts are...?

"The Qur'an openly challenges mankind and the jinn (another creation living alongside man that Qur'an talks about) to work combined and try to produce a single chapter of it and goes on to state that it won't happen ever."- The whole mankind can also try to put together

Tagore's Gitanjali or Harry Potter or any of the best selling books and believe me, they would fail!! They would come up with something else which would subjectively be guessed as inferior. and btw, i do believe that every one of the religious texts were written by men only. exceptionally smart ones at that!

"You might wanna consider thinking on why a muslim never turns away from his beliefs. Why don't they convert into something else? What is it that keeps them so firm and rock solid on their belief?"- You are wrong there my friend. I know of Muslims who have turned atheist or have converted or follow their religion jus because they lack the will to go against the flow.

Btw, do remember that other religions do not decry conversion as blasphemy and prescribe punishment for anyone who converts. You teach a kid from a very young age, that THIS is the religion and evrything els that doesnt agree with this is trash, the chances of him moving away from it are very less. 'Catch em young" policy, y'know!

(have you seen how those huge elephants that are shackled by thin chains? When they are small they are shackled with chains too strong for them, so somewhere while they grow up, they form the impression that the chain CANNOT be broken.)

and do remember, "SUCCESS OR FAILURE OF A VENTURE DOESNT PROVE ITS WORTH. iT ONLY PROVES HOW WELL IT WAS IMPLEMENTED."

About Mr. Bill's adultery charges, I do not know what his views on religion are but if they make sense to me, I will say hes talking sense even if he is an adulterer. Who am I to judge someone!!! Btw, do tell me how animals indulge in adultery when they dont get married in the first place! LOL...!

Well, Victor, I was not the one who said that i will not accept it, even before I heard it. Was I?

Infact, i have been listening to ur views,answering questions and asking counter-questions which havent been answered at all! How do you expect me to change my views without at least answering my queries, forget convincing me!

I am open to changing my opinion, but not before I am convinced. This is of course as opposed to saying that someone wont change my beliefs even before I hear what he/she has to say!

So far, I havent been in any misery coz of my beliefs. In fact I would say believers have caused more misery in this world than non-believers!! Do you need proofs for that now? Open any newspaper. All over the world, the misery caused by believers surpass any positive effects than you could ever hope to achieve by belief!! What good is any belief it cant bring peace? n dont giv me the line about any religion advocating peace and tolerance. The proof of the pudding, is in eating!!

I truly accept what you said Winn. I never said and no muslim says that the Qur'an answers everything that man wants to know to believe and accept it and the reason is obvious. The Qur'an has a few words, the meanings of which no one knows except God himself. The meanings of those words don't mean anything in arabic but they're used as words in many places in the Qur'an. The meanings were not revealed to the prophet itself.

Which human author will write a book so comprehensive yet not disclose meanings of a few words in it?

Would it not be obvious for everyone to accept Islam if the book revealed everything that man wants to know in order to accept it? Would it not put an end to the sufferings in this world. Of cource the suffering is due to the fight with the bad for the sake of good.

God created man as the most intelligent of all his creations. Now mankind is throughout the far reaches of the outer space out of his knowledge and intelligence but fails badly to put together the facts that Qur'an offers. The facts that Qur'an states is exceptionally comprehensive and no man can do this.

The Qur'an openly challenges mankind and the jinn (another creation living alongside man that Qur'an talks about) to work combined and try to produce a single chapter of it and goes on to state that it won't happen ever. So the only option left with people is to reject it.

I haven't read Qur'an in English else i could've presented many more arguments. The facts contained therein are far more scary and mind boggling for me at the moment so i stay away from understanding it in English language.

You might wanna consider thinking on why a muslim never turns away from his beliefs. Why don't they convert into something else? What is it that keeps them so firm and rock solid on their belief? Well...you might say they are the dumbest of all. You may argue they're afraid to "think" and so forth. Then how come scores of intelligent infividuals too turn to Islam. Would you say they turned dumb?

I did check Bill Maher on wiki. So far i haven't been able to catch much of him. But i did get to know he's a religion critic, unmarried and to the likes of pornstars. Comon Gypsy, how can you enjoy and consider ideology of such a person?

If someone's interested to find out the purpose of life, he/she needs to be a lot more respectable than Mr. Bill for he commits adultery and supports it. Animals indulge in fornication and adultery, not humans....right? Well.....im afraid you might deny this too!

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

Your quote "This is what I call approaching something with a pre-conceived notion. If you listen to something with ur mind already made up, you'll never accept it, you might as well not waste ur time and listen to it.

How about approaching it with an open mind and taking it from ther? You think it will be possible for you? I doubt" unquote.

The above statement also applied to you two guys as well.

Read again and think, Am I right? challenging existence of God, revolving around the same intellectual brainy stuff and riddles, sure it will not take you to any solution but misery.

Well, leatherface, this is what I call approaching something with a pre-conceived notion. If you listen to something with ur mind already made up, you'll never accept it, you might as well not waste ur time and listen to it.

How about approaching it with an open mind and taking it from ther? You think it will be possible for you? I doubt it.

"Infact shaking by beliefs is outta question. He'd fail miserably even to put up a question in my head!"- If it doesnt put up questions in ur mind, its you who have failed.

Bill Maher....alright im gonna watch this guy speak and read his articles and would get back to both you guys again. But before i see him, i'd say to you....This guy won't shake my belief even by a micron!

Infact shaking by beliefs is outta question. He'd fail miserably even to put up a question in my head!

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

Leatherhead: Do I sound like I am a religious person, leatherhead?I do not follow any faith, never felt the need to. The ones I have come closest to liking (that made sense to me)are Zen Buddhism and Satanism.

Now abt ur comments.

"Your massive worldly knowledge is not a guarantee of truth."-Never claimed it was. and I am quite fine with it. I dont need guanrantees for truth, I am not buying a blender here.

"You only believe and have studied the obvious."-Rotation of earth or evolution of species or atomic structure or chmistry are not 'obvious'. Have you 'studied' anything that is nt obvious and what others havent studied?

"You see what you wanna see ans you believe what you wanna believe."-Ain't that true for you too? Otherwise you would hav seen my point.

"This ain't intelligence. You're just being superficial."-What makes you an authority on what is intelligence and what is not? What are ur credentials?

"If you get to know from a source that Judgement day is 7000Yrs,4Months, 18days and 6Hrs from now, what would you do?"- Nothing.Question is not abt doing something. question is abt clarity of speech. Do you have to do something abt every single sentence in a religious text?

"How would you verify the source's authenticity and what would be your first reaction?"- How do you verify the authenticity of YOUR version?

"Would you falsify your own statements that you just said above upon your confirmation of the source's authenticity?"- Well, if I am convinced of something contrary to what I believe, I will correct my opinions coz my opinions are not based on blind faith. They can be changed when I see new facts and proofs. Can you say the same abt urself?

"You've argued quite deeply and shabbily leaving me no room to explain any further."-Thts coz I'm being logical and you are parroting what you have been fed from childhood.

"I'd still tell you something but only after you tell me what religion you currently belong to?"- Well what I believe in, doesnt change what you believe in. So I would say you are jus looking for an exit route.

"Cause my religion's foundation was set beyond a point (the religion itself claims this) where human thinktank can't imagine"- Obviously, the religion will claim so, dude. What do you expect? A religious text to start with a disclaimer like " All characters and incidents in this book are fictitous...blah blah"?? Every religion claims it is beyond human intelligence and so on. That is their USP. the mainstay.

"So it requires more than just intelligence to grasp what i've to say. It's incredibly tough to grasp for people of your calibre though."- Fully agree with you. In fact you dont need intelligence at all. All you need is blind faith on written word. Of any religion.and yeah I cannot bypass or anaesthetise my conscious. So it would indeed be tough for me.

...of life is to produce offsprings and continue the theory of evolution.

Life is Beautiful...Indeed!

It's a documentary by Bill Maher. It's hilarious, he basically goes around disproving all the world's major religions.

LOL, I see...btw,what is that? A TV program?

Just watched Religiulous last night Winn so I'm stealing from Bill Maher a bit. :P

Gypsy: "The very idea of I'm right and you're wrong, and my God tells me to make you believe is very very dangerous and scares the hell out of me."

You have put it way better than I could, what was nagging me in the back of my head. yeah it scares the hell outta me too.

leatherface: Its not abt winning or losing. Ever heard abt sharing of ideas?

Leatherface I believe Religion is the single most dangerous thing operating in the world today. It offers easy answers to hard questions and the very idea of judgment day and the apocolypse takes away any responsibility on our part for what is happening in the world today.

If you think judgement day is around the corner why bother to stop nuclear proliferation? Why bother to stop Global Warming? All of this is in God's hands right?

The very idea of I'm right and you're wrong, and my God tells me to make you believe is very very dangerous and scares the hell out of me.

I accidentally clicked a weight loss link on facebook website. That fellow took me thru four pages telling blabla without giving me the clue for weight loss. Then appeared a link to fill my credit card details..huh.

Everyone seems to find this post boring, yet they have the time to read it and comment, hahahaha.

Meaning of life? To reproduce and to sruvive. Spread yo genes.

Who created the universe, humankind and other forms of life and why?

The Universe? i don't really know. humankind evolved from apes. Other forms of life also evolved form othe forms of life, why? because of natural selection and other biological mayhaps.

I applaud your tenacity in the face of adversity I really do.

You are really plugging this.

First of all, this is boring.

Secondly, there is not ONE foolproof answer.

If there was, we would all look the same, act the same, want the same and all worship the same.

We are born, we grow, we all make mistakes, we are all sometimes nice, we are all sometimes nasty.

We all believe in WHAT we want to believe in.

Some of us marry and then have kids, some of us don't.

One thing for sure, we all are born and we all die.

The bits inbetween, are they pre-destined or do we make our own 'fate'.

Either way, I am off to open some whine (sic).

My thoughts are my own, but I doubt my Mum would agree with some of them.

When God created Adam from dust, he put life in him and then asked his angels to protrate to Adam.

Man thinks this universe is the most beautiful creation of God. However, this universe was created by God for mankind.

All the angels prostrated (bowed down) at Adam except one angel who was haughty and disobeyed this command. When asked about why he disobeyed God's command and didn't prostrated, the angel showed superiority over Adam by mentioning that Adam is made of clay n dust so he can't bow before him.

This particular angel was cursed and expelled by God and the set between evil and righteousness was thus formulated by God.

I forgot to mention in the earlier note that among all the prophets, prophet Moses was the only one with whom God conversed directly. In all other cases, the revelations were through a "wahi" (angel coming down to earth for communication).

This expelled angel from the heavens is referred to as "Satan" or the evil promoter. He leads a really huge team to mislead mankind away from the righteous path.

God did challenge and mentioned to this "Satan" that no matter how much you mislead mankind away from ME, if someone comes to ME for repentance, I'd forgive his sins as if that someone is just out of a woman's womb.

Although this appears to be some fairy tale to you guys, but the truth is much more fascinating than what actually meets the eye.

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

very interesting topic. I think we all come here to learn and pay from previous lifes. I strongly believe in recarnation , since i know we ar souls and nothingelse.

We need to be aware and progress "evolution" so we can learn our karma ,and in each life have a better one.

I dont have a religion but i belive in God "i call God a superior that guide us , a force in the universe, could be"

I OFTEN QUESTION AS WELL, ABOUT OUR EXISTANCE.

AT.

This is how the fact goes. Jews had revelations through Prophet Moses and prophet Abraham. The community of Prophet Moses and Abraham are referred to in the Qur'an as the "Children of Israel". Their book was called the "Torah". After prophet Abraham passed away, the Jews were still not following what Moses and Abraham wanted them to follow.

Then came prophet Isa (Jesus) with a new revelation called the "gospel" and had new teachings for the same people. His teachings were too meant for the "Children of Israel". Jesus's teachings became an uproar in the existing non-believing community and they almost killed him but on Jesus's prayer's, God lifted him to heaven and in his place someone else was crucified. The Qur'an only explains that the one crucified wasn't Jesus and was some other man similar in looks.

Jesus being a human being will thus return to earth during Fajr prayer time (before sunrise) in the final times to bring peace to muslims, jews, and christians. Jesus will be recognised by all three viz. muslims, jews and christians.

Now comes the ultimate truth. God sent the previous prophets only to a certain community and for only a certain period of time. But with Jesus gone, God sent prophet Mohammed (PBUH) on the entire mankind and decreed that the message carried by his last prophet will not be superseded by any more scripts from HIM. No more scripts will be revealed and no more prophets will come and Qur'an will be the ultimate guide to the "straight path". God also made sure that his final message in the form of Qur'an remains free of any human interference, obliteration, misinterpretation and empowered the Qur'an to remain intact right until judgement day. God declares in the Qur'an itself that HE alone is it's guardian and HE shall protect it.

Muslims believe and its quite obvious that the earlier revelations from God were changed and modified by its ignorant followers. It's this reason that only Christians and Jews are more likely to convert to Islam upon guidance received from God. For others, Islamic belief becomes a bit too much to digest.

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

LF: So, maybe christians and jews are part of those 73 sects just like it is said in Qur'an:

(2:113) "The Jews say the Christians follow nothing , and the Christians say the Jews

follow nothing ; yet both are readers of the Scripture."

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

I do belong to the Sunni sect. But the muslims are slated to be divided into 73 sects until Judgement Day and only one is supposed to be following the righteous path (this is no mere assumption. It actually is the last messenger's prophecy). To be honest, i don't know if I am on the correct path. But what i do know that God and his messenger did gave pretty clear indications to stay on the correct path. These instructions and indications are as crystal clear as signboards at any large airport to lead you to your correct gate to board your aircraft. I hope you understand this example.

These indications include 1. the most truthful form of speech and 2. the best source of guidance. God also did promise his creatures that so long as they seek HIS guidance and righteous path, HE shall provide it to them. It is worth mentioning that God did explicitly mention to his last messenger that you will not succeed in guiding anyone to the rightous path until I wish...so don't use force and too much coercion on people.

The most truthful form of speech becomes the noble Qur'an and the best source of guidance is the lifestyle and practices of the last messenger called the "sunnah".

The followers of the "sunnah" came to be called as the "sunni" and the followers of the prophet's family hierarchy were termed as "Shia"

All i can say is what the Shia's do as muslims is in contrast to what the Qur'an and the "sunnah" recommends.

I know what you wanted to hear on my answer about which of these two sects are correct. Lemme answer it this way.....

The last messenger didn't keep his people in dark about who are the righteous people among those 73sects. He said those who follow me and my ways and takes God's message to the distant places on earth will be the righteous and will be admitted to paradise. So i'd be on the correct path not by enrolling myself to a particular sect but by actually following what is righteous.

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

Leatherface: Are you sunni or shiite? Which of these 2 you think it's the correct path?

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Seriously I was thrown into this world by orders. I had no agenda whatsoever!

Now, I want to pass through with least harm to myself and others! while enjoying and being thankful for all the blessings I'm bestowed with.

Also wanting to leave something good to be remembered with! Boy it’s not easy!

Salam

Tell me if you believe in a religion or are an atheist? Are you atleast spiritual or just believe in what appears to the eye. I did tell a few people that while standing, sitting, driving, sleeping, every moment, evey second, one is rotating with the earth at a speed of 1014Kms an hour. Many refused to believe this or just didn't know it at all. Are you that sort of a person?

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

If both of you guys leave your current load of knowledge aside and then listen to me for a while, it might be more fruitful and enjoyable talkin in here. Cause my religion's foundation was set beyond a point (the religion itself claims this) where human thinktank can't imagine. So it requires more than just intelligence to grasp what i've to say. It's incredibly tough to grasp for people of your calibre though.

I immensely respect both you guy's argueing abilities. But to understand this stuff, it requires more than just intelligence. Trust me on this!

And yes, i call myself Leatherface coz i was shaken by the movie "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" and liked this name of his very much. Other good contender as a nickname was "Jigsaw" but this seemed a bit too famous.

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

Depends on the source. I've heard hundreds of apocalypse theories, Y2K anyone? I generally ignore them unless they can be proven absolutely.

Winn actually did win this discussion forum. I am more than impressed with his representation of the facts that he seems to have accumulated in years of his living on this planet. I'd definitely call him a genius of this material world. How often do people meet such a genius in here? Not very often i guess! I'd now humbly ask you what faith do you belong to? Believe me...this has something to do with your way of life.

However, there is a problem. Your massive worldly knowledge is not a guarantee of truth. You only believe and have studied the obvious. You see what you wanna see ans you believe what you wanna believe. This ain't intelligence. You're just being superficial.

If you get to know from a source that Judgement day is 7000Yrs,4Months, 18days and 6Hrs from now, what would you do? How would you verify the source's authenticity and what would be your first reaction? Would you falsify your own statements that you just said above upon your confirmation of the source's authenticity?

You've argued quite deeply and shabbily leaving me no room to explain any further. I'd still tell you something but only after you tell me what religion you currently belong to?

Gypsy, i'll tell you the same upon Winn's comments. Stay tuned. Believe me this ain't a time waste. It's rather a brain teaser!

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

You're more then welcome to believe that the Quran explains everything about life, and that Allah created all this Leatherface, however I see the gaping holes in the dogma.

I've read medical texts and philosophies from 3000 years before Mohammed was born that explain human reproduction, that theorize on the planets, the oceans, etc.

I've seen reconstructions of running toilets used in Ancient Rome, and plans for planes, helicopters,etc from pre-Islamic scientists.

I've stood in front of pyramids in Mexico and inside a crypt in Ireland that are designed perfectly to catch the solsticies, and great amazing effects with the light and existed thousands of years before Jesus.

There are no end to the wonders that pre-Christian societies created, and they had many many many Gods, not just one.

As for revelations on Jesus returning to Syria, none of this has happened yet, so I don't see how you can use this as an argument.

Life is like a river flowing to the sea of death

Death is the real truth. How we get to the real truth. The river of life will be calm along the way as will turbulent, muddy at times and clear at times. Once the water in the river passes a place it will never come back.

So the real purpose of life is to experince the real truth Death. How every one gets there depends on each and every individual..

-----------------

HE WHO DARES WINS

need to justify/support Islam by science. Our faith and belief in Allah, Angels, Jinns is purely on 'Ghayib', which are unseen.

However, just to convince a few intelligent, highly educated, over smart non-believer understand in his/her own language, which one (non-believer) has more stronger belief.

WINN is one of them, He is very intelligent (Masha Allah) but need to seek seriously, analyse and identify the true Creator of the universe. Please note that the route to seek guidance is not easy and Insha Allah, I hope He will get what he is seeking.

May Allah guide all of us to the True and Straight Path. AMEEN!

Again, leatherhead, stop concentrating only on ur dogma and read some history. You'll find that ppl who came much before had mentioned about atomic structure, test tube babies and surgery.

Abt saline content in mummies, thts how they stay preserved,leatherhead! I donno abt salt content in dummies though.

Abt oxygen and nitrogen and other crap, we r here bcos all of them fell into place. They wer not specially created for you. and if you think the whole universe was created around mankind, hats off to ur audacity.

and yeah if it was in a different percentage, life might not have developed or the life that developed here might have had a different kinda physiology !

Abt judgement day, no religion talks abt it in exact terms. they use illusions which can be fitted to events that could happen anywer. quite convenient. If they knew it so well, why in hell din they give an exact day n time, like 2389yrs, 3 months and 16 days from now or something?

"Who gave you the authority to "live your life to the fullest" wihout being accountable for anything to your creator?"-

Oh, I din know there was an esteemed representative from above amongst us. Bow down to thee , O master!

Who the Fcuk do you think u are to verify ppl's authority to live their life? and who gave you the franchise and exclusive ownership rights to talk on behalf of ur (imagined)creator?

Abt questions of science, any idiot can ask questions that can stump a nobel laureate. That is the beauty and wonder of science. Nobody ever said the present day science can answer every single question. But that doesnt mean you have to go back to some dogma for those answers either.

and btw, if ur attempt is to portray any religion in a positive light, you are doing an extremely poor job of it. I suggest you do some contemplation and locate ur rationale for belief. You wont find it in science as MD put it so aptly.

"you will find more foes than friends by this reasoning as the same is presented and argued many a times here with same result" Couldn't agree more with you.

This kind of thread is usually initiated by those who just learn religion with a lot of enthusiasm, but lack of wisdom in presenting it.

with the recent mission to find life on other planets i can tell you that most people have already given up on this sad life.

hopefully the other planets aren't experiencing an economic downturn as well.

Science cannot be used to support a religion. Science never claims the 'truth". Science changes constantly. That's one of the features of science. And if a religious maniac uses science to 'proof' his religion he makes the mistake of his life. If he 'needs' science to support his religion he is not 'believing', he is doubting.

"How can the human reproductive system (the biological aspect of it) be known to the people of that era?"

Which Era? How did animals leurn to reproduct?

"How can a book talk about the future events to take place on route to the judgement day?"

Which of the Books? Are you refering to Nostrodamus profecies?

"How can a book say that Jesus will return to Syria during a time very near to the dissolution of the earth and the entire existence?"

To Syria or to Israel?

"Why were the pharaoh's bodies discovered under pyramids had a high degree of saline content in them that made them stay for such a huge time period?"

Do you know how many cultures in the world would do similar proceedings a long time before Egyptians?

Did you knew that the plans of a plane were found in the ruins of Saqqara?

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

www.purposeofcreation.com

Islaam4u

Seems yet another 'am I Christian' thread. No one should deny your faith my friend but believe me you will find more foes than friends by this reasoning as the same is presented and argued many a times here with same result.

How many of you guys are aware of the scientific research that resulted in the discovery of the "barrier between the two seas"?

Water samples of the two seas have a different salinity, composition, temperature, etc to indicate that the two seas don't mix and that this barrier is not visible to the eye. This is backed by a modern scientific research.

How can the human reproductive system (the biological aspect of it) be known to the people of that era?

How can a book talk about the future events to take place on route to the judgement day?

How can a book say that Jesus will return to Syria during a time very near to the dissolution of the earth and the entire existence?

Why were the pharaoh's bodies discovered under pyramids had a high degree of saline content in them that made them stay for such a huge time period?

These facts was put forth 14 centuries ago in the Qur'an besides other information that have only been found in recent past times.

GYPSY are you an atheist? What makes you think the existence came into being on its own? What makes you think the sun, moon, universe and its gravitational equilibrium is merely existing by chance? What makes you think the perentage of oxygen together with nitrogen in air co-exists wihout a reason? Why does the artificial respiratory systems used by advanced technologies can't do away the need to manually extract moisture accumulated in the lungs as a result of this?

Who gave you the authority to "live your life to the fullest" wihout being accountable for anything to your creator?

These quesrions are from no religious texts. These are questions from science. Answer it.

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

Why is Ur id leather Face , if u Know this ...Then everything is clear

Well said brit

______________________________________________

Listen to Many..Speak to a few.

Hmmm, meaning of life....isn't it a monthy python movie? ;)

Now more serious, i agree with brit, it's a good way to put it :)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Tis time to be serious and address the question.

The meaning of life is to be generous and caring towards others; to provide a loving and caring environment for your family; to address the issues of education, justice and poverty; to help the needy an ofcourse to leave this world a better place than you found it.

Simple!

"it maybe that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a guide to others as too not what to do." Kid you not but this was actually written in a fortune cookie I got....

If everyone cared and nobody cried

If everyone loved and nobody lied

If everyone shared and swallowed their pride

Then we'd see the day when nobody died....Chad Kroeger

Oh my, Face of Leather...go preach somewhere else...like on a cliff top......*Yawns*

Well I just wiki'ed the meaning of life, and this is what I got: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life

Surprise Surprise, there's many many many theories as to the meaning, but no foolproof answers. :)

Listen to the sand storms.

And there is a lot of it about nowadays..

"The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind".

Britexpat, the question they came up with (from memory)was "How many roads must a man walk down"

Ahhh Doug Adams, how we miss him.

Lol QW, another foolproof is that we all know that we'll die one day.

Winn: lol, i'll use a line that Abu American usually uses in these cases: "This guy is full of awsome" :)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Thank you my children. Please come to Uncle QatarKiwi's for another dose of philosophy next week. Same Bat-time, same Bat-Channel...

If you ask the Magaratheans, you will realise that 42 is not the true answer, since the question has not been fully understood.

To properly answer the question takes learning spanning a number of lifetimes.

LOL @ Qatar Kiwi.

How profound , Qatarkiwi!! you are indeed blessed!! :-p

The real answer to the question: The purpose of life is to find out what's the purpose of life. And - once you've found out, your life is over.

Plato: No need to wonder plato, I am sure. He would be totally lost without it. No that he knows much now...

Well, actually 42 is the answer to life, the universe and everything but think that this is really the only fool-proof answer so far.

42

Winn: lol, great reply :) I wonder if Leatherface can really justify his belives without using a religious book. :)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Who knows. But I do know that I intend to live mine to the fullest.

1. Real purpose of life, ye leatherhead, is subjective and varies from person to person. For some it might be pursuit of knowledge, for some it is the thrills of life, for some it is something they are passionate about, so for this question there are as many answers as there are people.

I know this might be difficult for a leatherhead to comprehend that people can have diverse agendas and not a single agenda as prescribed by a dogma, but thats YOUR problem.

2. Who created? again various sources give various answers. Some say God, some say Allah, some say nobody created, some say quite a lot of forces are involved. you choose what makes sense to you and accept that someone else might choose a different version. Different folks, different strokes.

3. What happens after death isnt half as important as what you do while you are alive,leatherhead!

Now answer these question for me,

1.if you believe nothing can exist without somebody creating it, then who created God?

2.what is the connection with the "Culture n Islam thread?

3. WTF are you smoking?

LF: I could discuss this matter with you but i don't intend to offend people here. Please do note that an answer based on a religious book isn't "foolproof".

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

purpose of life is to praise and worshipp God.

Being "blessed" is also not "foolproof"! It's just an assumption.

I knew this question wud get you "yawns" and other means to drag the answer chain. Reason is only "the blessed" know the facts about the purpose of life. The mediocre wud keep away from presenting any arguments coz they don't know what to say, they never did.

It would need more than debating skills to win this question!

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

None of what was written so far is "foolproof".

I don't understand. What arrogance did i talk about?

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

Alhamdulillah, we muslims been very well aware the core objective of our life, purpose and where we have been going after death.

have you read "The Purpose Driven Life" By Rick Warren, try to read and from that you will find your purpose in life.

it's a best selling book anyway, have time and fun reading it.

Know we have to choice your death ---- as per Allah and his The Messenger of Allah (saws) Wish Or as per our Wish

Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 3 Surah Ale Imraan verses 185-186:

185 Every soul shall have a taste of death: and only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of life): for the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception.

186 Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly hear much that will grieve you from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently and guard against evil, then that will be a determining factor in all affairs.

Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 39 Surah Zumar verse 20:

20 But it is for those who fear their Lord that lofty mansions one above another have been built: beneath them flow rivers (of delight): (such is) the Promise of Allah: never doth Allah fail in (His) Promise.

The Messenger of Allah (saws) summed up the entire process of entry into Paradise in this one absolutely invaluable statement:

Sahih Muslim Hadith 6778 Narrated by Anas ibn Malik

I heard the Messenger of Allah (saws) say: ‘Paradise is surrounded by hardships and the Hell-Fire is surrounded by temptations.’

Help people, the Allah ( God) will help you

Why should you care about anybody else's mind?

"I'm targetting the one's in darkness" tsk tsk tsk.. how you amazed me...

Ohhhh Leatherface...but why didn't you say?!!

troll

Basically this question is for those who went arguing about the cultural aspects of Islam and what Islam holds about women. All those who have a problem with Islamic culture and why women must not be put behind veil may come answer it. Lemme see what have they learnt so far in their life after birth!

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.

NO NEED TO DIE AND COME AGAIN AND I AM 100% SURE ONONE WILL COME AGAIN AFTER DIE

Help people, the Allah ( God) will help you

i think you know the answer leatherface, you tell us ...yawn...yawn...yawn....

=Dura Lex Sed Lex=

time to sh*t.....:)

when you die, come back to earth and give us your foolproof argument why you were born, why you died and what is the temperature in your new home after life.

*Yawn**Yawn*........