Switzerland rues banning the minaret

What a benchmark. Now you see, blindman will never walks alone.

food for thought...

RENOWNED Swiss politician Daniel Streich, who rose to fame for his campaign against minarets of mosques, has embraced Islam.

greater vigour, when it is faced with confrontation.

A member of the Swiss Peoples Party (SVP) and a well-known politician, Daniel Streich was the first man who had launched a drive for imposition of ban on mosques minarets, and to lock the mosques in Switzerland. The proclamation of Streichs conversion to Islam has created furore in Swiss politics, besides causing a tremor for those who supported ban on construction of mosques minarets.

Streich propagated his anti-Islamic movement far and wide in the country, sowed seeds of indignation and scorn for Islam among the people, and paved way for public opinion against pulpits and minarets of mosques.

His anti-Islam thoughts finally brought him so close to this religion that he embraced Islam.

_______________________________________________

A lot of lovemaking can unblock a stuffy nose! Dr. Choc

In short, it's not easy to switch religion. First its a big sin. Second it shows how desperate you are for salvation. I think the swiss will acknowledge this as one of the reasons.

'secular and non-Muslim'... ROFL... thanks... that was a nice laugh...

as for the Swiss people's democratic choices... Hitler may have been an autocratic leader but his ideas often had popular support... and we all saw how that ended up...

silex6,

I know that Switzerland is not like Qatar (no European country is like the Middle East countries, thank god!). We would like that to remain as it is and that is exactly why I support and respect the Swiss people democratic choices for their country!

verisimilitude,

The only reason Mr. Ouardiri can appeal, is because he is in Europe, not in Algeria or any other Muslim country. And we, non-Muslims, would love to maintain Europe as it is, secular and non-Muslim.

Nic, Switzerland is not Qatar. there is no moral police, it's a secural country will true ("direct") democracy. Here most muslim come from Bosnia, Kosovo and Turkey, they are taking a low profile, and are used to pratice islam at a family level. There are only 4 minarets in Switzerland, and they have been constructed before most muslims come in Switzerland: Geneva minaret was built 1987, and most muslims come in Switzerland during the 90's (it was civil war in Balkans). Turkish people are used to pratice at a family level, as Turkey is a secular country (even if most people are muslims).

An appeal against last month's decision by Swiss voters to ban minarets has been submitted to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.

The appeal was lodged by Hafid Ouardiri, an Algerian-born Muslim and a former spokesman for the Geneva Mosque.

Mr Ouardiri wants the court to rule that the ban is incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.

Some 57.5% of Swiss voters and 22 out of 26 cantons - or provinces - voted in favour of the ban last month.

The referendum proposal was put forward by the Swiss People's Party (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which said minarets were a sign of Islamisation.

Switzerland's federal government had urged Swiss voters to reject it, warning it would contravene religious freedom and human rights and could stoke extremism.

A lawyer for Mr Ouardiri, Pierre de Preux, said the appeal would lead to unusual proceedings in Strasbourg, with both sides effectively opposing the measure backed in the poll.

The Strasbourg authorities are expected to take up to 18 months to determine whether Mr Ouardiri's complaint is "formally receivable", the Geneva-based lawyer said.

Once the request is approved, it could take a few more years to reach a ruling, he said.

Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

After Christianity, Islam is the most widespread religion in Switzerland, but it remains relatively hidden.

Switzerland dont ban mosques they just ban minarets...

By the way, did you seen any church outside or on the roof of the church in Doha ???

Pff...

I still believe its their country, and they have a right to vote as a nation for/against anything. Same here in Qatar, as expats we dont like a lot of the laws and practices here, but i have a lot of respect for Qatar, they dont pretend to be democatric like Switzerland, so you know where you stand here.

silex6,

As a non-Muslim, living in a Muslim society, made me understand the negative reactions observed a bit all over Europe.

Sorry to say this, and I only found out by living here in Qatar, their culture/religion, by nature is quite invasive and does not respect individuality, exercising aggressive pressure to impose their philosophies on others.

This doesn't go right in any part of the world, imagine in Europe?!

As for the minarets' decision is the result of fear, which helps at the same time to preserve the swiss identity!

"What is happening in Europe and in some extent in the non-Muslim countries, is a result of reacting to what is happening in the world - a high visibility of Islamic Extremism silently witnessed by the Muslim world."

Nic, that's perfectly right, and it affect several countries in Europe, as France, Netherlands and now it appear that Switzerland is also affected.

As those countries are target for immigration, there is some cultural pressure. Switzerland has reputation to be very tolerant, stable and multicultural country (there are 4 local cultures and languages), but cultural pressure created by immigration tend to make people less tolerant and a bit aggressive against foreings, and most muslims in Switzerland are foreingers from Turkey, Bosnia and Kosovo.

The minaret ban was nothing more than a wrong answer to a true problem that affect several western countries, including France as it was stated by president N. Sarkozy.

he is from Basel.

BTW

@Nic...If believe in good & positive then stand by your principles and don't flow with waves/times.

Switz is a beautiful country with very nice and cool people. It has joined Schengen group very recently.

I know a few German-Swiss guys.

There is a big gap within generations due to people avoiding big commitments in marriage and having children....

Consequently now, they would have to depend on outer/immigrant population to join and support their older generation.

sarkozi.iz.dumb,

LOL...stay tuned for the financial crisis your absence will provoke in the country!

Genesis,

I am all for what people want for their own country.

Qatar has lost its identity but there is no harm in trying to recover it. The only difference between Switzerland (as an example among many others) and Qatar, is that people here have little or no say in the destiny of their country.

What is happening in Europe and in some extent in the non-Muslim countries, is a result of reacting to what is happening in the world - a high visibility of Islamic Extremism silently witnessed by the Muslim world.

Before I came to Qatar I was all for diversity. I do come from that background and grew up in such society, where color, religion, race, or whatever other criteria, cannot be an issue for discrimination. Sadly, the experience of living here in Qatar, the observation of this society and the reaction to invasive and aggressive imposition at several levels of believes, philosophies and life styles, is turning me into bitter and less tolerant.

Similar to the change in my perception, nations also change, reacting from what they observe and learn.

My hope is that when I do go back to Canada, I will forget all this quasi traumatic experience and stop associating it with Muslims or Islam and become again the tolerant person I was before coming to Qatar.

Nic said You probably don’t want that for your country why others should accept it!

Well , that's what most Qataris are wondering now…. If a poll was conducted whether to allow Churches to be built in the country, most would have voted against. Qataris in Newspapers, Radio/TV talk shows& internet forums are speaking against serving alcohol at hotel facilities , Building churches & Public display of Charismas celebration. Only to be silenced be me & many others that Qatar strives to be part of Globalization, free trade & cultural diversity … putting all that restrictions will harm Qatar image as a country that seeks modernity

Such "Rightists" stunts & your perspective is just a slap in the faces of those who calls for coexistence & cultural diversity in the country

Genesis,

Some reasons are roughly listed above (1 to 4).

Globalization is proven to be damaging to local cultures and Europe is starting to see that!

Each culture/religion in its own natural habitat, otherwise the world will all become a melting standardized pot.

You probably don’t want that for your country why others should accept it!

non-alcholic only :)

Why to indulge in great detail and history of Europe?

Lets stay with basic...what muslims are asking for, just to provide a proper place for prayers with properly designed mosques with minarets.

Is that making the whole nation to as "Islamic"? I doubt, it is like making a mountain out of a mole hill!

Is it wrong in any way?

Why Islam is always seen as a Threat to Western Society?

Nic said Lausanne is such a beautiful city, thanks to the Swiss system that protects its architectural characteristics!

Minarets, even if they are beautiful like the ones I posted above, they are not natural to the Swiss architectural landscape!

But doesn’t that conflict with “globalization, & cultural diversity” image that most Western countries (including Switzerland) have adapted for the past decades?

Although I don’t think Minaret is really important from a religious point of view. However, how can we call for Dialogue of Civilizations when The “Crescent” in the word “coexist” is banned?

victory,

I prefer Belgian chocolate...

silex6,

As I commented before in another post, they were fighting for the right thing with the wrong argument!

I guess it was a marketing/propaganda strategy to win and it sure worked!

With all respect I have for good Muslims, Islam is generally perceived by some westerners (not only Swiss), by having a bad reputation is caused by many factors. Here are a few:

1. Most of the violence worldwide is done in the name of that religion.

2. Contrary to most of other religions that are mostly kept private and are seen as the relation between the individual and god, respecting each individual’s degree of commitment or even non commitment, Muslims feel the need to display their religion’s commitment. Not only they feel the need to display but to measure and judge others. This causes a tremendous pressure on the individual who struggles between what he practices and what he wants or feels need to show. This stimulates moral policing (rejected by human nature, particularly by non Muslims in general) and defensive and protective modes which result in hypocrisy.

3. The Koran does incite violence against the “enemy” that is why the extremists think that they are doing the right thing.

4. On the other hand, even knowing that those extremists are a minority, the majority of good Muslims don’t voice their views in public against Islamists. Leaving the impression that they consider "Infidels" worse than "Islamists".

For all the above reasons, if Muslims want to improve the reputation of Islam in the world, they have an enormous amount of work to do. Until then expect that non-Muslims will always be at a defensive side when it comes to being exposed to Islam.

I am telling you all this in the perspective of a non religious person, who lived in several societies, i.e., Christians, multi-cultural and Buddhist and now in an Islamic society. Never before I felt so uncomfortable with the hypocrisy and the moral police that we all face here. Always I have been curious and admire the local culture and even religious acts. My curiosity was motivated by the kindness, the welcoming feeling and the respect I always felt from the host country. Here in Qatar, it is sad to observe, for the first time, instead of spirituality usually associated to a religion, we get a lot of aggression, disrespect, abuse and hypocrisy.

PS. Lausanne is such a beautiful city, thanks to the Swiss system that protects its architectural characteristics!

Minarets, even if they are beautiful like the ones I posted above, they are not natural to the Swiss architectural landscape!

"killings in Somalia, cut genitalia,women killed "for honour"...and so on and so forth. those are only a few examples of how Islam is generally portrayed."

Alexa, you are right. cut genitalia and women killed for honour where some of the topics of the debate that prepared the poll...there were other topics, but very few related to the minaret itself.

Nic, i would not say that the entire nation is ignorant, but rather than lack of knowledge (and load of fear) on islam is a common fact for many people in Switzerland.

The church you added to the message is located at Lausanne, where i'm living. This is one of the most beautiful building in the city.

Now about cultural protection. In Switzerland every new building planned to be constructed should first get the agreement from the local authority. One of the purpose of this process is to guarantee that the new building will save the cultural and architectural aspect of the area.

Now looking on agruments of the party that drived the referendum, it has nothing to do with architecture. The minarets where pictured as a forest of black colored rockets, that no people at all want to add to the landscape, and which has nothing to do with typical minarets as those you added to your message.

Of course, currently many mosquees in Switzerland are built on old factories, industrial or living zone, where there is no particular aspect to save.

silex6,

My comment was about the lack of accuracy of your statement. It’s not correct and fare to say that an entire nation is ignorant on a particular subject.

But coming back to the referendum, besides the political side of it, you do have to look at Switzerland’s right to protect its character and culture and that includes its architecture. You wouldn't like to see Swiss' cities look like ugly mess that some Asian cities look like (mixing different architectural styles that have nothing to do with their own heritage)!

Minarets and Islamic architecture are appreciated in Islamic nations.

Overall, besides the way it was publicized, in my opinion it was a right decision of the Swiss people.

Stone Cold ????

I may not totally agree with the suiss,but I see where the country is coming from. We need to foster a view much like the middle east. If you dont like it then Get the Hell Out of our Country.

Don't have to do that referendums. It would be like courting a tiger cubs only to know that they eats you up when they grow big enough. Prevention is better than cure.

I admire the Swiss referendum system. But the mosque vote shows there must be some legal circuit-breakers to prevent fear-mongering, prejudice and ignorance swaying less educated people.

verisimilitude,

Cheers from Swizerland, there are some keypoints that a referendum must meet in order to be poll to the people. Minaret ban poll was just enough lawfull to get green light from the parlament. Many people have critized the parlament choice, and they are now on the work of creating a internal court for referendums. (people at parlament are not lawyers). Some internal and international groups, like swiss anti-racism authority, UNO, and european human rights court also critized the referendum.

"Let's see, common people here know quite nothing about this religion" - what makes you entitled to affirm this?!

Nic,

there is no education related to islam in Swizerland, and informations related by media (newspapers and TV) are more related to terrorism than to religion. Many people do not know that Allah actually mean God. I was part of people that know nothing, until i get married to a muslim woman.

Museum of Islamic Arts really looks like a cathedral from the top. So is it a conspiracy by the West led by IM Pei to put a christian symbol in the shores of an Islamic Capital.

Alexa,

So it's basically "They're different, and they must be bad..."

I agree with the article that there should be mechanisms in place to stop fear mongering in switzerland, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somali, mindano, china, Saudi to name a few of people that have a different religion or culture than the majority. Freedom to worship without free should be a basic Human right for all regardless of where you live.

Death to the religious dictators!

http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=331714&version=1&template_id=46&parent_id=26

The Swiss reveal an ugly, racist side

By Eric S Margolis/Paris

For the past century, beautiful, peaceful, rich Switzerland has been the world’s envy. But in recent years, its good fortune seems to have run out.

The current world-wide uproar against Switzerland for banning minarets on Muslim mosques is the latest misfortune to hit the Helvetic Republic.

Switzerland’s change of fortune began in 1998 when a Swissair DC-10, with 229 aboard, crashed off Newfoundland, Canada. After a series of calamitous business decisions, Swissair, an elite airline once known as “the flying bank”, went bankrupt.

Next came the Holocaust crisis as Jewish Americans began punishing Switzerland for allegedly refusing to save Jews from Nazi persecution. In truth, the Swiss saved as many Jews as they turned away – far more than Canada or the US – but the damage was done. The Swiss had to pay huge reparations to influential Jewish groups yet they still earned the bitter enmity of Jews everywhere.

Then the largest Swiss bank, UBS, with assets worth four times more than the entire country, nearly went bankrupt in 2008. UBS was forced by US tax investigators to violate sacred Swiss banking secrecy and shamelessly throw clients to the wolves rather than give up its large business in the USA. The Swiss banking industry is unlikely to ever fully recover from this disaster.

Last month, after years of xenophobia, scaremongering, and anti-Muslim racism by the hard right People’s Party, Swiss voted 57% in a referendum to ban further construction of mosque minarets. Switzerland has only four small mosques.

The mostly Swiss German People’s Party claimed the ban would stop the threat of “Islamisation of Switzerland” and defend women’s rights from alleged Muslim oppression.

Europe’s anti-Muslim right wing political parties rejoiced. France’s conservative president, Nicholas Sarkozy, lauded the Swiss vote. So did Italy’s former fascists; French neo-fascist leader, Jean Marie Le Pen; and Dutch fascists.

Swiss, as I learned while living there for many years, are fiercely nationalistic and suspicious of all foreigners. They have long feared hungry neighbours coveting their little Alpine land. In 1939-40, Germany and Italy almost invaded, but decided not to after Switzerland’s 800,000 citizen soldiers prepared to fight to the death.

Today, 25% of Switzerland’s population is foreign-born. This deeply upsets Swiss – particularly the German-speaking majority. The more worldly, sophisticated French Swiss are far more open-minded. There is even a Swiss secret police that watches all resident foreigners; locals are encouraged to spy on non-Swiss neighbours.

The Swiss People’s Party, like conservative-rightwing parties in the US, Canada, Britain, Germany, France, Italy, and Australia, all have adopted varying degrees of anti-Islamism to as their most potent, popular ideology. Today’s hatred and fear of Muslims is the modern version of 1930’s anti-Semitism.

Just as Nazis denounced Jews as dangerous sub-humans, today Western right-wingers, Christian fundamentalists, pro-Israel neoconservatives, have simply changed the hate label from Jews to Muslims and the code word, “terrorists”.

Switzerland’s small Muslim minority mostly comes from the Balkans and is barely religious. The Swiss are delighted to sell jewellery to veiled women from Arabia. They just don’t want any living among them.

The Swiss federal government strongly opposed the referendum. Thoughtful Swiss are also appalled and disgusted.

I admire the Swiss referendum system. But the mosque vote shows there must be some legal circuit-breakers to prevent fear-mongering, prejudice and ignorance swaying less educated people.

The Muslim world is working itself up to a furious response that will include boycotts of Swiss goods and pulling billions from Swiss banks, hammering the already-battered Swiss economy.

Many of the slow-minded rural Swiss Germans who voted for the ban may have to go back to cheese-making and cow-herding.

The vote would not have passed without strong female support. Many Swiss women supported the ban in a rush of anti-Muslim emotion. Their wrongheaded vote may set back the cause of Muslim women by providing ammunition to fundamentalists.

Most Swiss women, who only got to vote in 1971, had no idea the Balkan Muslim women in Switzerland are as liberated as they are.

I still have deep respect for Switzerland, the country of my youth. But today, I am deeply ashamed of those Swiss who have violated their nation’s honour.

fubar,

now you are stretching it!!!!!

It doesn't look like this:

or does it?

Check out the Museum of Islamic Art viewed from above on Google Maps. It might as well be a cathedral, with its cruciform layout.

:)

That one was a Trojan maneuver ;)

I've seen crosses in Dubai. They is a big one called the Burj Al Arab....

silex6,

"Let's see, common people here know quite nothing about this religion" - what makes you entitled to affirm this?!

Your government is already very tolerance silex6. 130 mosques is already too many compared to the number of churches and temples that has been built in GCC countries combined.

They will all follow like sheep they are...They wont know why.. but they will follow with the bummy spit

Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.

Cheers from Switzerland.

first of all i'm very disapointed on results of the poll :-(

this ban have a very symbolic meaning and very few actual impact for muslims in Switzerland (as there are only 4 minarets and 130 mosquees in the country, and they will leave untouched - only new buildings are forbidden)

cause of the result is mostly related to the view and knowledge Swiss people have on islam. Let's see, common people here know quite nothing about this religion is not even able to explain what actually IS a minaret...

now a party proposed to ban minarets, based on the point of view that they are related to political expectation and not to religious buildings, and that to allow minarets will let people introduce Charia in Swiss law... seems many people have agree with this point of view

more information: http://www.minarets.ch

(Swiss People Party page related to the ban)

of course the ban actually does not meet international laws and contracts Switzerland have subscribed (human rights agreement). UNO already warned Swiss government about this.

A great thought. Actually, in many small towns in the UK, churches have been converted into mosques.

I think mosques/minarets in Europe should be built in the local architectural style. They should blend-in.

Minarets should look similar to church steeples.

Europe has its traditions and cultural heritage and it strives to protect them. Generally speaking, each region in Europe (not restricted to an independent country) has its own architectural traits and the local legislation is strict in preserving and maintaining its character. That is why European’s cities are so beautiful unlike the anarchy and horrendous architectural fruit salad of some places in Asia!

For that reason, minarets are beautiful when seen in the right context, in Islamic societies / cities!

In Europe, expect to see amazing Cathedrals!

They started it by whinning about a measly "four" minarets in the whole country..

FFS its there country. Instead of being offended get on with life instead of being whiney little bitches about it.

I have seen crosses in Bahrain.

that distinguish mosques, so I expect and suggest to stop issuing any permit license for any Church in any Muslim country and not only Arab or GCC country.

Remember what happened to the Algerian team in Egypt before thier football match? That time I and many others knew that the same will happen to the Egyptian team in thier next match in Sudan, and this is what exactly happened.

Forget about KSA and Vatican. Exclude them. If the Swiss government will not allow minarets, then I guess, suggest, and hope the Muslim Countries will stop stop issuing any permit license for any Church in any Muslim country and not only Arab or GCC country.

What you do is what you get. As simple as that.

Brit: I have seen Bells and Crosses in Egypt and Tunisia as well

I have seen Mosques in the UK with Hilals.

There are no hilal's on the minarets in Europe too, so don't ask why there is no crosses or bells in Churches in the GGC countries.

Azan is not allowed in mosques in Europe, and bells are not ringing in Churches in GCC countries

Lets Face it. If Christians tried the same with Churches and Bells in a Muslim Country it would be stopped without a doubt.

Swizerland is trying to nip the problem at its bud. The trust is not there any more with these precedences of events. The problem is choosing what is tolerance and what is extremism. Again the chances of breeding these jihadis and sleeper cells is 1:100 if left unchecked. Now you may ask why Nidal Hasan Mohd played his part of the game.

well guys did any one asked why there is no bells or crosses on the churches in the gulf or why its not allowed to build a church in KSA ?????

before we ask why Swiss people are doing what they are doing we should ask our selves whats the image that we are sending in the first place ???

LOL...I say to you what you say to others. Keep to the topic.

No one had mentioned secularism until you introduced it. It wasn't mentioned in the article.

You seem to have a "thing" about secularism no?

if you have issues with merriam websters, I strongly suggest you take up that matter with them...

Besides, singling out the architectural style associated with a certain religion is not the ideal manner of excluding it from political or civil affairs....

Just for the record, I have no issue with mosques having or not having minarets... I have issues with singling out the architectural style of mosques for special treatment...

no difference wheather minarets or no minarets as long as people are worshiping on time on regular basis....minarets just a way of presentation to the muslim worshiping place....a minaret helps people to find the place...one can even pray on the raod also if there is no place...allah will be pleased.

A religious consideration.....PMSL

You have obviously selected your definition.

ENCARTA gives two:

1. exclusion of religion from public affairs: the belief that religion and religious bodies should have no part in political or civic affairs or in running public institutions, especially schools

2. rejection of religion: the rejection of religion or its exclusion from a philosophical or moral system

You are indeed a sad case.

secularism : "indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations"

banning the minaret while at the same time not banning steeples on Christian churches is an exclusion of the Muslim religion... if you can't see the hypocrisy there, then sorry but I can't help you...

Go swiss Go

I quote from your post:

"When a country claims to be secular, it becomes the right of every citizen in that country to practice his religion in a responsible manner."

No one in Switzerland is denying anyone the right to practice their religion They just don't want the minarets.

Hmmm,seems a little silly to me. I can understand banning them in certain historical areas if they ruin the "traditional Swiss decor" but in none historical areas who cares.

Tarsier: LOL on making a comment about illiteracy and then spell it wrong. Was that on purpose...

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough...

lol on some comments:) very funny that some people are still illetrate and blind although we are soon in 2010 :)

You and your facts!

What is the point of propoganda if you come along and spoil it for everyone?

:P

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Perhaps the US is just an anomoly, but according to the American Religious Identification Survey (2008):

"The Muslim population doubled during the 1990s but its growth in numbers now seems to be slowing. The size and proportion of the Muslim population has often been debated but the ARIS numbers closely resemble the recent findings of the General Social Survey and the 2007 Pew Religious Landscape Survey."

http://livinginliminality.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/aris_report_2008.pdf

According to their figures, Muslims represented 0.5% of the US population in 2001, growing to 0.6% of the population by 2008.

By my maths 50,000 people aren't converting annually to Islam, the growth in followers seems to follow immigration trends, not conversion data. But what would I know.

the civilized bastards invaders.

A lot of lovemaking can unblock a stuffy nose! Dr. Choc

Daa stergey jaadoogarey dee, daa meena lewanai da!

Janaan......

good

:-P

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

i'll refer it a joke :-)

A lot of lovemaking can unblock a stuffy nose! Dr. Choc

Daa stergey jaadoogarey dee, daa meena lewanai da!

Janaan......

Refer to Verse 10 of Surah Imran

You are the best ummah singled out for mankind: you enjoin what is right (ma’roof), forbid what is wrong (munkar), and believe in Allah

and in fact, in my daughter's community (just for 2 examples). The masjids participate in interfaith programs and charity works within the community. It's called co-existence. Maybe you have heard of it....??? :-)

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

out for Prayers, climbing Stairs 5 times a day would also keep him slim & healthy

what purpose does it solve in this modern era?

Minarets with Crescents is another Innovation

can u please tell me a single period for the entire 1400 years, when muslims are welcomed by these communities?

i'm agreed with swiss govt decision, if they are banning on minarets of masjids, but i'm wonders where are the so called human rights policies of the so called civilized nations / countries, who always starting whining if they see even mass slums in subcontinents, or a woman covered in hijab / full dress ?

World is full of hypocrites Dot.com.

Dot.Com: Forgive me. As an atheist, I don't have much interest in reading holy scripts. Is that taken from the Quran? If so, isn't that just islamic propaganda or is the same thing written in the bible?

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough...

I stated very clearly that I hope we will be welcome in all communities.

Besides, there would be a big religious discussion of that issue as stated in the Quran and nothing as simple as you taking one ayat out of context to justify a clash of civilizations.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Ok can someone clarify this for me, If islam is spreading really and I mean really fast and soon the whole world will be Muslim anyway so why are you guys getting so worked up about the ban on Minarets in one country, not ban on Mosques or existing Minarets but on building the new Minarets. Has the spread of Islam hit a major roadblock because of this.

If you say No, which I am sure you would then why are you guys whining so much about it. Very soon the whole world will be Muslim (As per you), you can build Minarets in Switzerland then.

وَلَن تَرۡضَىٰ عَنكَ ٱلۡيَہُودُ وَلَا ٱلنَّصَـٰرَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَہُمۡ‌ۗ

And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed.

Sura 2

Al-Baqara (MADINA)

Verse 120

are they distributing Burgundy cards? Even marriage to Qatari wont give you citizenship

Now RP holders cant build domes can they?

Swizerland is a relatively free country. People can mostly vote and tell the politicians what they want and don't want. That's good! So they said they don't want Minaretts in their country. That's their will. You Muslims and everyone else should accept that as I do accept that I can't wear sleeveless tops in Qatar. What would Qataries say if the christians would come and build a large Dome in their country? Would they shout "Yes, of course, do whatever you want?" It's a matter of respect to other cultures, other opinions, other religions.

You still have to learn that there are other ways to live, other opinions than yours. If you don't, you don't have respect. That's not the way people should deal with each other no matter what religion.

50,000 Americans revert to islam annually(source Sami Baaghil)

"Do they not then consider the Quran carefully? had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions "Chapter 4:verse 82

dotcom you must be thankful that they allow you to befriend them without requiring you to follow them! Isn't it the case in most of the christian countries? Would you then say God misunderstood them(naudubillah)?

Ok, so there were people who debated that a minaret (which symbolizes a Muslim place of worship, including the holy places of Makkah & Medina resembles rockets... hmm, so it turns out there can be insensitive, ill-educated people in any part of the world.

Imagine if everyone starts using their imagination this way.

------------------------------------------

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

Islam can be good or bad. It really is irrelevant for the issue of whether they take over. It's a matter of simple math. Non-muslim families is 1 man, 1 woman, 2kids - muslim families is 1 man, 4 women and 8+ kids. Since muslims are granted citizenship in christian countries and have a right to vote, democracy (and above mentioned math) dictates that Islam will be ruling the world in the future. Smart move to allow four wives...

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough...

well, there is always a clash between public opinion and government decisions in most of the countries. For eg. many wise decisions of the rulers of the middle east to allow certain things to the foreigners out of good will and respect are usually lashed at by the local conservative muslims and the clergy. So swiss are no different. Even if the Swiss government goes against their decision and lifts the ban to save its secular image, their animosity will remain towards Islam till muslims around the world showup in actions the true islam to which the world has no choice but to bow....

Muslims can pray anywhere unlike other religions. Any clean room can be turned into a prayer room or a mosque.

when will this drama end?

No wonder the rightists are winning in Europe, it takes situation like this to prove that some muslims are fanatics

just like you cant stop Angel of Death neither can anyone stop growth of Islam

if i mistaken, then correct me. Its not a man made, its written in Quran.

A lot of lovemaking can unblock a stuffy nose! Dr. Choc

Daa stergey jaadoogarey dee, daa meena lewanai da!

Janaan......

"Jews and Christian's (Nasara) can't be ur friend / well wisher, until u follow them"

wonderfully said, the imam in our mosque was talking about this during Ramadhan, but you just put it in context so wonderfully...

its easy to understand my quoted text, if u first refer PM text, which i've pasted in my post.

A lot of lovemaking can unblock a stuffy nose! Dr. Choc

Daa stergey jaadoogarey dee, daa meena lewanai da!

Janaan......

Could you? for you it might be clear but not for me or some others

there is nothing hidden, if u really want to understand.

A lot of lovemaking can unblock a stuffy nose! Dr. Choc

Daa stergey jaadoogarey dee, daa meena lewanai da!

Janaan......

Can you explain to me more about what you have mentioned in your last comment?

"I hope that when we take back our religion from the extremists who are defining it in such a negative light, we will be welcomed in every community."

Its clearly written in Quran that;

"Jews and Christian's (Nasara) can't be ur friend / well wisher, untill u follow them"

A lot of lovemaking can unblock a stuffy nose! Dr. Choc

Daa stergey jaadoogarey dee, daa meena lewanai da!

Janaan......

* 8 hours member? typical troll as we see from his profile:)

* Doctor! Yeah, we can sense it from his language and mind:)

* Female! Yeah, females talk this way. haha

* From New Zeland! LOL! my 5 yrs old nephew speaks better English:)

Hi, I am Julie, new to Qatar. Hating it and loving it in equal measure (This girl got problems). Hope I can meet friends on (on? or in?) here (You better go to a mental retarded hospital and you will find lots of friend). I don't like, people with tattoos or piercings... know that sounds snobby to some; but most people I have met with them have been low life scum bags! (so sick you are. Who asked for your opinion about them and why to judge them? go look at yourself in the mirror. LOL) Feel free to prove different.

Sounds like a jack :)

seems like he was rapped badly by a lebanese,or filipino, or indian, or any middle eastern. lol.

His comment make me laugh early this morning once i read it. so stpid mentaly retarded comment he had. Starting with: Islam has to be stopped, AS well as America and the Jewish lobby!. As if Islam is a country or nation to compare it with America and as if America or the religion is a political party to compare it with the Jewish lobby.

Then that Nigeria has more oil than the GCC countries. Later, about the lebanese, indian and filipino so called Mafia.

I have doubts on that this pity boy had suicided already last night or a truck mashed him under its wheels because he did not smile to show himself at the dark. LOL

Why do you say I sound like an Indian?

NUCLEAR ENERGY: IF AMERICA AND ISRAEL CAN HAVE THEM - THEN SO SHOULD IRAN.

IGNORE JACKFROST

"Recession is when your neighbour loses their job; depression is when you lose your job."

You seem to be generally not happy with yourself.... too many things on your list to whine about....lol

_______________________________________

One life to live, live it to the fullest.

I agree with it.

Islam has to be stopped, AS well as America and the Jewish lobby!

As soon as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Qatar et al, allow freedom of religion (which they wont) we should stop pandering to them.

The Swiss are right, we allow them to build Mosques to rant hatred against the West....we are foolish enough to allow this...but nothing can be said against these people as they think they rule as they have oil.........................errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr look at Dubai folks....laughing HERE; at that......the Middle East is dead....they have borrowed too much...built too much...on the back of 'they think they have oil'....Nigeria, Russia and Canada has more my friends.....Yes, it may take lots of money to get it....but at least..they won't

use slave labour to get it.

The Muslims think they have the fastest growing religion, most people that converted were being PC....the educated amongst us...well we knew it would go nowhere.

If I were running Qatar...

Stop using cheap labour....It takes twice as long....buy cheap, buy twice...get rid of the third world workers apart from cleaning etc....they can do that...by the way...NOT met one Indian or Phiillloooopppiinnna with a REAL degree yet!

Do not employ other Arabs especially Lebanese....Come on...vain, arrogant idiots who think they are better than the rest? Why? Ever heard of the Lebanese Mafia....slightly worse than the Indian and Philllllllllllllopppppppppppppppppinnna one.

Qatar can actually stand up for itself...they are bright nice people who are educated and if they put their mind to it, could actually run their own country well.

Getting back to the point....the Swiss are right...unless the 'real' Muslims prove how 'nice' Islam is....we the West have a duty to stop it...They don't aknowledge us, why should we acccept them?

FOR ME. as soon as Islam comes across as being a peaceful, accepting religion and does not use slaves etc, then I will think about it....until then...FORGET IT!

Maimoona Rahman, you sound like an Indian!

There is always a slight variation. Especially, the Shia mosques call prayer a little later than the Sunni.

I do however think that there is no discord. The call to prayer is melodic to many and brings vibrancy to the area.

Oh you did respond, sorry timing got mixed up.

grace since you didn't respond to my previous comment, let me ask more clearly, swiss government stopped any more minarets and you destroy all the churches and temples everywhere in Muslim majority countries..

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that kind of thinking the reason the west is becoming wary of Muslims, why did you think of destruction the moment you read this.

not yet. They are discussing it only. I know. I said incase this will happen, then I expect a respond from the other part

or any other Government will only create more hatred and more discrimination to come. The amazing part here is no matter what those governments are doing and those wars against the so called Terrorism, Islam is still growing up and people from all over the globe are converting to Islam.

Such actions let many intelligent people to search more about Islam, to read more and ask more in order to find the reason behind this action and many other actions against Islam. Only blind people who follow the wind are the ones who believe in what they hear on Radio and Watch on TV. But smart people who seek knowledge are the ones who search more and listen to both parties in order to understand and decide what is right and what is wrong.

grace I hope you remember that they haven't banned the Mosques, neither are they demolishing the Minarets already there.

What if all the Middle East countries including Qatar demolish and ban all the Christian Churches, but leave the Jewish Churches as in lebanon for example and the Budha timples as in Malaysia and Hindu temples as in Indonesia?

What will that mean for Christians? What if all Christians working in the Middle East were forced to wear scarfs or even Abayas?

If Swizzerland will pass this and ban the mosques, I am pretty sure that other Islamic countries will stop any building permit for any Christian Church. This is the fair way

LOL again,

I know exactly how small my country is, do you see it as a bad thing?

But the Christians are expats in Qatar, not citizens. They technically have reduced rights. Plus, Qatar is not democratic.

NUCLEAR ENERGY: IF AMERICA AND ISRAEL CAN HAVE THEM - THEN SO SHOULD IRAN.

IGNORE JACKFROST

"Recession is when your neighbour loses their job; depression is when you lose your job."

Oh, and by the way, this act by the Swiss is just plain stupid. Just as dumb as the French move to ban the burka. You guys can analyze it to death and expound upon ideas of preservation and lack of tolerance but in the end, it is just plain stupid!!!

Bleu - My home country is large, very large. Take out your map - one that is geographically correct - and compare the USA to the entire Middle Eastern region. Then throw in Northern Africa and, just for kicks, western Asia. Maybe then you will begin to discover just how big the USA actually is. If we can find "our" criminals, then certainly so could you. The point is that you don't and seem to believe that that is acceptable. It is not. The followers of Islam should be so enraged at the criminals acting in their name as to make it an absolute responsibility to rid them from our world. Let your faith be stronger than your fear...

There should be more churches, but the muslims wont have that,, so how many christians are there in Qatar,, I would like to see the %... Its alwasy the Muslims that complain they are being treated bad nad wrong.

Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.

are you saying that swiss muslims are not tolerant...

.... when we were an empire we had an Empress (Victoria, Empress of India).... when we were a kingdom, we had a King ..... now we are a Country, we have Gordon Brown

.

"I told the doctor I broke my leg in two places. He told me to quit going to those places". - Henny Youngman

Yes Sandeep, Islamic countries feel threatened by other religions, and they wind up saying the other religion is disrespectful to Islam. Why are there no churches in Qatar? Because Qatari Muslims would deem that a step towards non-Islamisation. Besides, Qatar is not democratic, so technically, it's not secular. But, isn't Switzerland democratic? Are there no churches in Egypt?

Undemocratic Jordan and Syria have churches because there is a Christian population in those countries. But does Qatar have Qatari Christians? There are Swiss Muslims who should be entitled to special minority rights because they are Swiss. Forget Non-Swiss Muslims in Switzerland. Danish folks in Qatar don't require minority rights because they are not citizens, mere residents. Duh!

Please remember, Qatar is not a democracy, so there is no secularism here. Chances are few that you'll actually see a church with a cross here in the next millennium or so.

And Muslims in Switzerland shouldn't fret because minaret is not a place where you worship, it's the structure beneath the minaret where you pray. With or without the minaret you can always pray. And if things get worse, you can migrate.

NUCLEAR ENERGY: IF AMERICA AND ISRAEL CAN HAVE THEM - THEN SO SHOULD IRAN.

IGNORE JACKFROST

"Recession is when your neighbour loses their job; depression is when you lose your job."

its never too late to smoke em ragheads out...

Cheers for the Swiss.

More western countries should take note from this event.

Its just schizophrenia...

There are lots of people asking why Muslim countries don't have churches...

while there are lots of Muslim countries that have thriving Christian minorities with several churches, these countries do understand that they are 'MUSLIM' countries... they don't wear a veil of hypocrisy and claim to be secular because they know they are not treating every religion equally...

When a country claims to be secular, it becomes the right of every citizen in that country to practice his religion in a responsible manner... Switzerland though is denying that right to its Muslim minorities and still claiming to be secular... and THAT is hypocrisy...

Let them start calling themselves a Christian nation or a secular 'nonmuslim' nation and then maybe it would be more appropriate...

i am really disturbed, if somebody stood their ground for their belief others will call it foul. wish muslim will allow christian churches to be built where the christians wish to see it. only then they will have the right to react with those country or people rejecting their so called rights.

progress

Westlaw, LOL!

Are you schizophrenic? I read what seems like the writings of two different people/ideas.

"The islamic extremists, militants, criminals...you know who they are. They are your friends and neighbors, fathers and brothers, sisters and children. They live and breathe in your communities and they thrive only because of your tolerance."

Sorry, but I don't know any "islamic extremists, militants, criminals", you seem to assume that we all do, and we're silent, because we are wrong...

I like your last few paragraphs...

"I grew up in a very multi-cultural community and treasure the knowledge that upbringing has given me. There are so many beautiful religious and cultural practices and traditions - from every corner of the globe. Open your eyes, unlock your minds and enjoy the diversity. It will bring you riches greater than gold. Look past the differences and you will find that we are all the same. We all love our families and friends. We all love our hometowns and countries. We all want our children to see more and do more and have more than we have seen and done and have.

In short, why can't we all just get along??? "

The islamic extremists, militants, criminals...you know who they are. They are your friends and neighbors, fathers and brothers, sisters and children. They live and breathe in your communities and they thrive only because of your tolerance. You turn a blind eye to their behavior and your passiveness is what the west does not understand. Any and every criminal act committed under the auspices of islam is justified by the islamic community's lack of action against the militants - criminals. Any violent act carried out in the name of Allah (for islam) or God (for christians) is dispicalbe. I've studied many religions and have yet to find any teaching that would support any criminal behavior. Of course, the criminals acting under the banner of islam are quite adapt at pulling text out of context to justify killing. It is shameful and the islamic community's failure to fight such insanity is just as shameful. We have the same extremists in our society with the same ability to pull text from the Bible to justify their hatred of others. Unlike you, we hunt them down and we prosecute them, period. No argument, no confused feelings, no fear of reprisals. We will not and do not tolerate criminal actions.

All of this talk about the western world not being tolerant of cultural differences is crap. Aside from the fact that we wish to avoid being slaughtered, we simply do not want you to impose your beliefs and practices upon us as we would not impose our beliefs and practices upon you. The most simple example is the burka. We don't care just as you shouldn't care what we choose to wear. It does not threaten us that you dress differently but it surely seems to threaten you - to the point of police action - that we dress differently. Why is that? Where's the threat to you?

I grew up in a very multi-cultural community and treasure the knowledge that upbringing has given me. There are so many beautiful religious and cultural practices and traditions - from every corner of the globe. Open your eyes, unlock your minds and enjoy the diversity. It will bring you riches greater than gold. Look past the differences and you will find that we are all the same. We all love our families and friends. We all love our hometowns and countries. We all want our children to see more and do more and have more than we have seen and done and have.

In short, why can't we all just get along???

And they say ,,, It [the ban] constitutes an attempt to insult the feelings of Muslims.... by a crop of Sh####T

Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.

Manama, Cairo, Paris: Muslim leaders all over the world have expressed dismay over Switzerland's shock vote to ban the construction of new minarets. Denouncing the decision, Kuwaiti religious scholars said Arab and Muslim diplomats and the Organisation of Islamic Conference should take up the issue with the Swiss authorities.

"Switzerland has always promoted respect for human rights and religious pluralism, and international law calls for respect for religious minorities. Muslim and Arab diplomats should submit a formal complaint to Swiss courts," Dr Bassam Al Shatti, head of religious studies at the University of Kuwait, said. (wondering how much he has looked at his own backyard!!)

Egypt's Mufti Ali Juma'a said: "It [the ban] constitutes an attempt to insult the feelings of Muslims inside and outside Switzerland," adding that the move can deepen "hatred and discrimination" against Muslims.

Lebanese cleric Mohammad Hussain Fadlallah said the ban was in line with a media frenzy to portray Muslims negatively. He urged the West to seek better understanding of Islam.

Maskuri Abdullah, the head of Nahdlatul Ulama in Indonesia, which has 40 million members in the world's biggest Muslim-majority country, condemned the vote and called on followers not to be provoked by it.

In Pakistan, Khurshid Ahmad, vice-president of Jamaat-e-Islami, a political party represented in parliament, said: "This development reflects extreme Islamophobia among people in the West."

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said: "I am a bit shocked by this decision. It is an expression of intolerance and I detest intolerance. I hope the Swiss will reverse this decision quickly."

The Vatican endorsed criticism by Swiss bishops that the vote was a blow to religious freedom.

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/kuwait/vote-against-minarets-sparks-global-outrage-1.542511

if you have tension ? no problem use it......lol

(NOTE:- DON'T TRY)

Its always toe muslims that complain they are beng hard done by for what ever reason, I dont see churches in ever city block of Doha, but muslims have always been like that. rules for them and rules for others, if you dont like it leave here. what a way of thinking, no wonder they lived in tents and rode camels up untill the 2nd world war.

Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.

Right or wrong, but the swiss certainly seem to have had enough of secularism, for whatever reason.

But before the collective Islamic conscience cries blue murder they need to give this a thought.

1. How many countries with a muslim majority have a secular constitiution and system, to start with?

2. How many of them give rights to open worship and freedom of displaying symbols of faith to people of other religions?

3. How many of them have not banned (or actively discouraged)conversion of Muslims to other religions?

4. Doesnt these parameters affect the perception and attitude of the rest of the world towards Islam, in general?

(Lately, I seem to be developing a talent for stating the all-too-obvious)

IMHO,Just because a country says its secular does not mean its populace will not feel threatened by cultural invasion. and jus coz a country has a secular constitiution does it mean they should tolerate cultural/religuous practises totally alien/uncomfy to them? and if the majority doesnt want to tolerate something, should it be imposed on them by courts/govt? Wouldnt that be equal to suppressing the majority to appease a minority?

Its time these countries gave a 'Culture charter' to wannabe immigrants to tell them how they want their culture to be treated. That way the people who feel that the host country is not secular enough to tolerate their beliefs can do a re-think before going there. (I am not saying that teh mmigrants do not have a responsibility to find that out before they move).

Guess that doesnt account for swiss nationals who convert to Islam.

P.S- reminds me of an article that I read recently, that talks abt Nidal Hassan and how muslims in US army feel about attacking Islamic states. The same author then went on lamenting about how their their peers were being paranoid and distrustful abt muslim troopers. C'mon, you say things like you hav a problem with violence against muslims(NOT violence per se, NOT violence against ANY human being)and then you expect a majority population who are non-muslim to be all comfy about you!

Maimoona Rahman:

"Switzerland's supposedly democratic, which implies, Muslims have just as much rights as Christians." - Yeah, the Muslims with Swiss nationality do, but that doesn't mean EVERY muslim in Switzerland.

"But apparently, the Christians, which translates to the majority, feel threatened by Islamic symbols, and hence by majority vote they suppressed the minority voice." - I wouldn't put it like that, but yeah, that generally how a democracy works.

"But shouldn't the minority be entitled to special rights?" - Why?

I certainly don't feel that I have any special rights here, even though I'm a minority - and I shouldn't have. But maybe I should start asking for special rights for the Danish minority in Qatar?

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough...

Maimoona do you think all the Islamic countries feel threatened by every other religion that's why they don't allow them to be practised here or do you only judge other religions?

Why on earth would they be Maimoona Rahman

Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.

Switzerland's supposedly democratic, which implies, Muslims have just as much rights as Christians. But apparently, the Christians, which translates to the majority, feel threatened by Islamic symbols, and hence by majority vote they suppressed the minority voice. But shouldn't the minority be entitled to special rights? Like in India?

Anyway, what's done is done. Muslims should now understand that raising minarets is not an integral part of Islam; it can be done without. The 400,000 Muslims should worship in mosques sans minarets. Soon, the Muslim population is bound to grow, according to pundits of demographics. Then maybe, the law will be rescinded.

Anyway, the minaret hardly matters, so Muslims should avoid making a fuss over it, and seek Allah's protection from further anti-Islamic laws. At least this will manifest the peaceful nature of Islam.

NUCLEAR ENERGY: IF AMERICA AND ISRAEL CAN HAVE THEM - THEN SO SHOULD IRAN.

IGNORE JACKFROST

"Recession is when your neighbour loses their job; depression is when you lose your job."

these are all a result of negative portrayal of Islam to the non-islamic communities..

The usual QL drivel, and it was time to invoke Godwin's law on the First Page!

Its there counrty.. let them decide what they want,, not us outsiders. stay out of it. i say

Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.

150 places to worship for 4.7 % of the population is pretty good in my view.

Is it not possible to practice the religion without a minaret?

There are apparently approximately 150 mosques in Switzerland of which four have minarets.

this the latest vehicle for his low self-esteem fueled hatred of the West.

It's obviously not a big deal to the Swiss or the rest of us who recognize a sovereign nation's right to make decisions, however unpopular with the rest of the world. We may not like it or agree with it, but we DO recognize their right to make their own laws. There is only one person who doesn't seem willing to grant Switzerland the same rights he grants his adopted country. Such an obvious and pathetic agenda... tsk tsk tsk..... :-P

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

What is so diffcult to comprehend? It's their country. The people of Switzerland 'spoke" through their vote.

If the Middle East ever becomes a democracy, and people vote not to build a mosque or synagogue, would that be regarded as racist.

Prayer is a very private issue. It doesn't need to be broadcast, nor do we need a particular building to pray.

The Ban is on Minarets which are simply Towers with onion Domes. So they could make towers with spires now! What does it matter, this or that?

The Ban is on Minarets which are simply Towers with onion Domes. So they could make towers with spires now! What does it matter, this or that?

you refuse to stick to the topic and you refuse to answer my question on the so called secular nature of Switzerland... talk about hidden agendas!...

Your convoluted effort to turn this into an Apologetic Islam thread is disgusting... you need to get to terms with your own religion, seems like your heart is wandering

Looking at the number of entities represented (Vatican, French officials, German officials, Amnesty International to name a few)that condemn this act, i am filled with hope that we can achieve more understanding that translates into peace and prosperity for all people regardless of religion & origin.

It is sadenning however to see such a poster at this very late day in history.

The worst thing to comeout of it is, if some muslism in Swiss start appealing the ban. The best thing will be to tell the Swiss minarets don't have much significance in Islam and they can shove the ban.

Verisimilitude and his one-sided crusade against 'Westerns' yet again...

You just can't get it out of those feelings, do you?

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

It doesnt matter veri, its still their country and their rules. You have to remember that we must respect and follow the rules of the country we live in(even if we dont agree with them). Banning the minaret doesnt lesson my faith, and we always have the choice to live their or not.

Nothing. Issue today, gone tomorrow. Propaganda money wasted. I assure you they won't ban it. They'll only limit it. Or cross-fingers maybe in the end they'll approve the right to build it.

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

minarets indicates that we DO need to work on our image and living lives that reflect the beauty of Islam -- not the ugliness of extremists? We need to take a good look at ourselves and if we truly are above reproach then rest easy knowing that Allah will make all our trials worthwhile in the next life.

I am not afraid at all to take a stand. I took one. You just don't like it and are looking for someone to fight with and sling mud at. Look somewhere else.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

While its true that Muslims have much more important things to worry about than minarets... there is no escaping the fact that banning them is a clear sign of anti-islamic feelings...

When the Swiss ban minarets, its not the Muslims who need to be judged as your comment seems to suggest, its the Swiss who need to be judged...

when it comes to the core of the issue, you are too yellow to take a stand cos it would show your true colors...

Their countries, their rules, we have to respect the country we live in, or alternatively find another one we are more comfortable in. TBH muslims should be more worried about how they are representing Islam, than worrying about banning the minaret. We have our priorites all wrong.

When time come for christianism or jewishism and even sionizm they say man it is the religious freedom...

But on the other hand for the same plantation they say it is islamic terrorism.. That is why they are hypocrates..

And doing these kind of hypoctarical lies they are getting their ends..

Look at history guys.. Muslims never made a bleeding action in Jerusselam or others.. But when they had the power or overcome there were just bloody actions gone all the time..

Time is not everlasting for all mankind, there are some changes happen under sun so it is not surprise to me if some other Europian country take same action..

Question is why islamic countries do not make any action against these prejudiced countries?

Must have rattled you. And sorry, I won't discuss this issue (or any other one) with someone who is calling me names.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

very mature comment hapy, giving me an idea about why they don't like Muslims.

^Oh Yeah now you can educate them on benefits of cow piss

I mean so they don't like Islam, then so what?

Just portray your religion in its true colours and they will start seeing the good in it and start thinking differently. Needless whining isn't going to help anybody except release your inner frustrations I guess.

Its like some muslim country banning coat labelling it a symbol of christianity.

Fear? How, when probably not even 1% of them would have seen a minarete in their country< considering there are only 4. Its more the hatred than fear., which is probably fed by politicians and media. Isn't it ironic something is being portrayed as symbol of Islam and then banned, which even muslims don't think much of.

The way it was presented in the propaganda posters it has, hapy. It created a fear among the people being ruled by minarets and having to wear black veils.

minerate has got nothing to do with sharia law. It only shows that swiss do not like muslim influence in their country.

I don't want to compare Islam with the NAZI ideology, just for the sake of an argument. In Germany anything that refers to the NAZI ideology is forbidden, despite the right of freedom of speech and expression. How come? It undermines the basis of the democracy because it has contradicting values. Sharia law and the secular Swiss law contradict each other, too. Despite the fact that there is freedom of religion and expression, they can forbid elements or symbols which refer to a contradiciting ideology.

The government may consider themsselves secular but swiss people have proved they are not.

Nobody's asking if Switzerland is secular or not. Only you. And if they do or do not it doesn't concern the controversy of banning the minarets in that country either.

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

And for some mosques that had a minarets, it looked more like needle towers on an erected structure. And they're not using it for adhan prayers.

And that's a double-sided answer in the last paragraph of my first comment.

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

try to read my comment carefully and try to understand what it means...

if you don't get it... ask someone near you who understands English to explain it to you...

I don't have the time for name calling... stick to the topic...

Answer this question...

Would you consider a country that bans minarets without banning structural symbols of other religions to be secular?

"I already answered my simple idea in my first comment, verisi ..."

this sentence makes no sense at all...

neither your comment before that...

What does Muslims praying in a Mosque with or without a minaret have to do with Singapore and there isn't anything to laugh at either... your English is very poor

Such insecurity :-(

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Or is it still about your annoyance of anything Western?

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

learn to read and grasp simple ideas before you pen something...

I was talking about when I am driving in Doha... and the direction of the qibla has absolutely no relevance in this discussion except for you to advertise the fact that you carry a qibla compass (or claim to do so)...

...neither has any Muslim declined to offer a prayer at a mosque without a minaret...

That made me laugh. Try Singapore. :-)

Offer a prayer? Try the Muslim prayer rug. Simple. :-)

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

locate mosques before you go or upon arrival. I always ask the hotel staff where I am and also about the qibla. And I carry a qibla compass with me. Are you really such an unprepared traveler? Or is your faith not important enough to do a little homework on the internet?

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

plain and simple!

"I'm back, simple as that"

If the majority vote them out then people have to deal with it. J

But I realize that does nothing to help you try to stir up QL :-P

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

The importance of a minaret to a mosque is not the topic of discussion here... The Swiss did not ban it because they did not consider it an integral part of a mosque... and neither has any Muslim declined to offer a prayer at a mosque without a minaret...

Minarets are an emblem of Islam. Banning them is an open admission of the fact that Islam and Muslims and their religious emblems are not welcome...

A minaret till date has not inflicted any harm to my knowledge in Switzerland or most parts of the world. The only practical purpose of it these days is that attracts the attention of people so they know there is a mosque when they are somewhere close...

When I am searching for a mosque in an unfamiliar locale... the first thing I look for is a minaret...

Anyway, discussing matters of Islam with you is a waste of time... lets ban a church bell in a secular country and then see you comment about it...

the weird part on me is that of viewing minarets as mentioned by the author...

in qatar, i had climbed many of these minarets which was especially alloted to QTEL beefing up of transmission antennas.

if in fact they can serve multi functions, how can one view them as nuisance?

so why do you have a hard time accepting a mosque without one?

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

I think they should also ban the towers in the West Bay. They are symbols of the decadent and infidel West! They represent the greedy business man of the West, possibly Jewish. How can they allow these symbols to be erected in an Islamic State?

Ottoman period. They do not date from the time it functioned as a church. I am not sure about minarets being derivative of Christian campaniles. I would have to do more research but the campanile isn't an important part of a Catholic church appearing regularly, until about 10th-11th century.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

i have'nt actually seen in Qatar a self standing tower called minaret, without the mosque.

If they want to ban the minaret, they should ban the mosque construction instead!

I am finding weirdness in this subject of discussion :(

The minarets i know are those towers attached to the mosque. How are these structure offering any trouble? Are they going to be hazzards to aviation?

Is their any other minarets? or meaning and purpose of it?

Evolving from Ottoman and Byzantine Empire influences. Hagia Sophia was originally not a Moslem church but rather an Orthodox Catholic one.

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

of all this arguments on the rights and wrongs of whoever, i am sure like all other religious oriented arguments, will also come into deadlock with

none accepting the lesser of opinion whatsoever.

however, i would be happy to learn at the end of the day the real meaning and purpose of having it... the Minaret :)

the worlds safe...no one , i repeat no one can change or modify anything on the system because it's owned by the big dogs!!!

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I'm Jack's complete lack of surprise

Heero it is just symbolic?

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"HE WHO DARES WINS"

Derek Edward Trotter

BritExpat.. Switzerland is not part of the EU, therefore the European Human Rights Court cannot interfere.?

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"HE WHO DARES WINS"

Derek Edward Trotter

to whine and stir up trouble. :-)

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

In architectural history, the first mosques doesn't have minarets. Plenty of mosques around the world doesn't have minarets. And some of those that doesn't have minarets does the adhan prayer inside the mosque.

So what's the deal with the Muslim unrest in Switzerland for not having minarets in some or plenty of their mosques over there? And who's also saying the Swiss people forbids it when there were already like four of it built as anyone of you mentioned?

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

No action is also a decision, one by omission. Hopefully, the moderate/true followers are taking action and exerting their influences in their own way.

Btw, same arguments apply for other religious extremists.

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The Cookie Monster said it.

and wait... isn't that what they blame Muslims of... ironic...

Supporters of a ban claim that allowing minarets would represent the growth of an ideology and a legal system - Sharia law - which are incompatible with Swiss democracy.

How simple is that to understand?

“terrorists rely on an endless supply of people living in extreme poverty, with no other options in life. The only chance we have to see the end of terrorism, is to end extreme poverty.”

Graduated from Xavier Institute for Higher learning

problem as oppression of muslims by some non-Muslims. In fact, I would suggest the two are linked. I hope that when we take back our religion from the extremists who are defining it in such a negative light, we will be welcomed in every community.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

majority will prevail. Besides, not having minarets will not affect people being able to worship freely. It's more like a zoning issue where certain things are not allowed to be built in some areas.

Besides, if the minority want minarets (and they are opposed by the majority) they can immigrate to an Arab country. :-)

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

tHE FUNNY THING IS THERE ARE MORE MINERATES ON THE POSTER THAN IN WHOLE OF SWIZERLAND. There are total 4 minerates in whole of Switzerland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8385893.stm

Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets

complicated

Christians only see suicide bombers while muslims only see christian suport for Israelis who are exterminating Palstinians and milion iraqis killed for supposedly haing WMDS

minerates were not built along with mosque in early history of Islam, tehy came much later.

Have you ever seen a cross?

Middle - East = Islam & Muslims

Europe = Peace & Christians

They just ban minarets not Mosques - Mosques are very allowed...

BY THE WAY I DONT REMEMBER TO HAVE SEEN A CHURCH IN DOHA OR DUBAI OR RYYAD OR... WITH A BIG CROSS ON THE ROOF....

Britexpat said:

The sad thing is that the posters portray something nasty and the Swiss fell for it..

Now one understands how Hitler managed to sway people so easily..

I forgot britexpat, that you are such a Pakistani conservative ?????,,,, Yeap right!..........Frugal moslem extremist..........

“terrorists rely on an endless supply of people living in extreme poverty, with no other options in life. The only chance we have to see the end of terrorism, is to end extreme poverty.”

Graduated from Xavier Institute for Higher learning

It is funny to hear that the peoples vote choose to ban the minarates from building, yet, it was a referendum of votes collectively and with a legal through process, yet the ones that lost to the vote will call it racist.

No one is perfect and you can please every citizen or asshole in Switzerland.

So, live with it or if your feelings and views are so extreme, hurt or extraneous, just migrate back to your former home (shit hole) you did crawl from.

Religion and politics is like oil and water.

“terrorists rely on an endless supply of people living in extreme poverty, with no other options in life. The only chance we have to see the end of terrorism, is to end extreme poverty.”

Graduated from Xavier Institute for Higher learning

In islam, Minarates are not essential for building mosque, it was introduced by the time there was no amplifiers, to allow the "mu'athen" to reach higher place than all surroundings and to his voice to reach as far as possible. now that technology allowed voice to reach everywhere, minarates become just a traditional shape of mosques.

what swiss are trying to ban is the loud muslims call to prayers in mosques, main reason of banning building of minarates

Yalla!

Poor decision by the Swiss. I could understand if they were banning mosques that were huge and out of character with the surrounding area but they are banning all minarets.

As for being secular I think that is probably right for the country as if you asked most Swiss you will find most are not religious.

Maybe Saudi should take a stand and show the world and let a big church or Sikh temple be built in Mecca. That would shame the Swiss into reversing such a decision!

You said,

"Swiss only ban Minaret but not cash flow from Moslem Country...hypocrit....and Swiss Banks received a lot of illegal money due to corruction and crimes...what hypocrit..."

And some of the Middle Eastern countries, ban other religious beliefs and the spread of such, but receive all the work and the monies that result there of, from the expats, regardless of their religious beliefs...and that's NOT hypocritical????

Whoa, talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Any religion can practice without the outward symbols...true religion is in your heart and soul.

Has anyone considered that perhaps the minarets are causing issues with their call to prayers? Not all countries are a majority of Islamic believers and it might just be offensive to the residents of the country in which they are residing.

Life isn't tied with a bow, but it's still a gift.

Thanks.. This was the point I was trying to make. Although I must admit, the poster sends a very distorted message and I am a little surprised that they fell for it :O(

Well said bleu. That's how it should be.

So what, we don't need minarets to pray... it is easier to locate a mosque, but not a requirement. They can do whatever they want, as long as they don't stop people from practicing their religion.

Never underestimate the power of propaganda!

The sad thing is that the posters portray something nasty and the Swiss fell for it..

Now one understands how Hitler managed to sway people so easily..

Yes, brit, the minaret is the symbol of hatred.

If I understand correctly, the ban is on Minarets and not Mosques. So one can still build a Mosque albeit minus a minaret ..

When Christian things are banned in ME it's a matter of "aahh well. That's to be expected. It is a religious country, after all" and "Well, we chose to move to their country, so fair enough", but when a Western country bans something from Islam it's a "violation of human rights"!?!?!

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough...

I guess the churches are relicts of the past, winn. Hardly any new ones are built. They had a function in the past for protection and community meetings. This happens now in the government buildings, and there are no barbarians crossing the Swiss border anymore. As you know, every house owner in Switzerland had to have his own nuclear safe bunker. I guess the minarets are considered a symbol of the negative Islam image, that's why they look like missiles. Whatever the constitution says, winn, in Switzerland the people can decide by referendum, it's sort of a direct democracy. The government represents the people and has to obey, like it or not. It's the average Swiss citizen who is fed up with Islamic bombings and terrorism, burga and forced marriages. And that's why they don't want to see a symbol for all this.

Hopefully , the vote will possibly be overturned by the Swiss supreme court or the European Court of Human Rights.

Boston: I understand what you are talking about and agree with you.

But in this case, the problem is bias or discrimination towards the symbols of a particular religion. They are not against symbols of any other religions.

So are they secular any more? I guess this vote, in effect, says that the majority doesnt want to be secular anymore. I can not comment on whether they are justified in doing so or not.

It's so simple. Talk to your God where ever you are. No need for a symbol. No need for temples, churches, synagoges, and mosques! It's only vanity. Look what I've built with my own money! Am I not good?

forgot the link. here it is.

http://gulfnews.com/news/world/other-world/swiss-ban-mosque-minarets-in-surprise-vote-1.537625

So, if the majority in a democratic country bans a particular religuos symbol, does it mean they do not really want secularism within their borders? Should they not look into their constitiution then and remove the 'secular' mention, if any?

looks like the results are already out...

Swiss ban mosque minarets in surprise vote

Geneva: Swiss voters overwhelmingly approved a constitutional ban on minarets on Sunday, barring construction of the iconic mosque towers in a surprise vote that put Switzerland at the forefront of a European backlash against a growing Muslim population.

Muslim groups in Switzerland and abroad condemned the vote as biased and anti-Islamic. Business groups said the decision hurt Switzerland's international standing and could damage relations with Muslim nations and wealthy investors who bank, travel and shop there.

"The Swiss have failed to give a clear signal for diversity, freedom of religion and human rights," said Omar Al Rawi, integration representative of the Islamic Denomination in Austria, which said its reaction was "grief and deep disappointment."

The referendum by the nationalist Swiss People's Party labelled minarets as symbols of rising Muslim political power that could one day transform Switzerland into an Islamic nation. The initiative was approved 57.5 to 42.5 percent by some 2.67 million voters. Only four of the 26 cantons or states opposed the initiative, granting the double approval that makes it part of the Swiss constitution.

Muslims comprise about 6 percent of Switzerland's 7.5 million people. Many are refugees from the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s and about one in 10 actively practices their religion, the government says.

The country's four standing minarets, which won't be affected by the ban, do not traditionally broadcast the call to prayer outside their own buildings.

The sponsors of the initiative provoked complaints of bias from local officials and human-rights group with campaign posters that showed minarets rising like missiles from the Swiss flag next to a fully veiled woman. Backers said the growing Muslim population was straining the country "because Muslims don't just practice religion."

"The minaret is a sign of political power and demand, comparable with whole-body covering by the burqa, tolerance of forced marriage and genital mutilation of girls," the sponsors said. They noted that Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has compared mosques to Islam's military barracks and called "the minarets our bayonets."

Anxieties about growing Muslim minorities have rippled across Europe in recent years, leading to legal changes in some countries. There have been French moves to ban the full-length body covering known as the burqa. Some German states have introduced bans on head scarves for Muslim women teaching in public schools. Mosques and minaret construction projects in Sweden, France, Italy, Austria, Greece, Germany and Slovenia have been met by protests.

But the Swiss ban in minarets, sponsored by the country's largest political party, was one of the most extreme reactions. "It's a sad day for freedom of religion," said Mohammed Shafiq, the chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, a British youth organisation. "A constitutional amendment that's targeted towards one religious community is discriminatory and abhorrent."

He said he was concerned the decision could have reverberations in other European countries. Amnesty International said the vote violated freedom of religion and would probably be overturned by the Swiss supreme court or the European Court of Human Rights.

The seven-member Cabinet that heads the Swiss government had spoken out strongly against the initiative but the government said it accepted the vote and would impose an immediate ban on minaret construction. It said that "Muslims in Switzerland are able to practice their religion alone or in community with others, and live according to their beliefs just as before." It took the unusual step of issuing its press release in Arabic as well as German, French, Italian and English.

Sunday's results stood in stark contrast to opinion polls, last taken 10 days ago, that showed 37 percent supporting the proposal. Experts said before the vote that they feared Swiss had pretended during the polling that they opposed the ban because they didn't want to appear intolerant.

"The sponsors of the ban have achieved something everyone wanted to prevent, and that is to influence and change the relations to Muslims and their social integration in a negative way," said Taner Hatipoglu, president of the Federation of Islamic Organizations in Zurich. "Muslims indeed will not feel safe anymore."

The People's Party has campaigned mainly unsuccessfully in previous years against immigrants with campaign posters showing white sheep kicking a black sheep off the Swiss flag and another with brown hands grabbing eagerly for Swiss passports.

Geneva's main mosque was vandalised Thursday when someone threw a pot of pink paint at the entrance. Earlier this month, a vehicle with a loudspeaker drove through the area imitating a muezzin's call to prayer, and vandals damaged a mosaic when they threw cobblestones at the building.

This is sadly a fact. The "silent majority" needs to stand up and find their voice..

Secular or not, Swiss has every right to decide what is right or wrong as per majority view.

As why people are scared of Muslims and Islam in the west it is because when they look out the terrorism and death appears to be connected to Muslims and their faith.

Mindano

Afghanistan

Pakistan

chechyna

Dagestan

ugilars in china

ache in Indonesia

Somalia

Sudan

Lebanon

I could go on

Well veris the Muslim countries who call themselves Islamic states should not protest if the Swiss do this.

I am against this proposal. There should be freedom of religious practise in all countries.

Joe: I agree. That is hypocritical. But, don't forget, money makes everyone a hypocrit - muslims and christians alike. ;-)

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough...

Yes I did lump all those things together for exactly the reason you state. There are a lot of people who find the idea of women covered head to toe in a black cloth as troubling. That is their opinion to it, and they are entitled to their opinion. That's the idea of a free society that debates issues and then puts it to the people to make decisions through referendums and plebicites.

Because the people voting for the ban don't want to live in a multicultural society. They see the burka and polygamy in the same light as suicide bombings.

Rather than baiting me on QL for my opinion, why not simply turn on the TV and see what the Swiss based reporters on CNN, BBC or Al Jazeera cite as the reason for the poll result.

I'm only trying to presume what it is that Swiss people may have been feeling, but I'm not Swiss and I quite like living next to the minaret in our compound. Not only does it make giving directions to my villa easy, but the call to prayer is quite pleasent.

Swiss only ban Minaret but not cash flow from Moslem Country...hypocrit....and Swiss Banks received a lot of illegal money due to corruction and crimes...what hypocrit...

Life is a continual upgrade. ~J. Mark Wallace

Fubar: Well said.

Maurochiado: You're absolutely right. I imagine building churches in every middle east country would be allowed and applauded. ;-)

Brit: I also agree with your scaremongere point, but I do think the general muslim population, living in western countries, should've tried harder to stop all the negative publicity about muslims in those countries.

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough...

that you put polygamy and burka in the same category as al qaeda and female genital mutilation...

So basically what you are saying is... why don't them bloody muslims just behave like us so we can be tolerant of foreign cultures...

it doesn't go both ways...

European countries are supposed to be secular

Gulf countries are not secular, they consider and call themselves islamic countries

So if Switzerland would call itself a Christian country... then it can go around and veto as many minarets as it wants to...

"However, in a free and fair society, we must not allow scaremongerers to rule the day."

I agree entirely with that statement, the problem is that it is oxymoronic. In a free and fair society, any group representing the majority should, by definition, rule the day (unfortunately).

So for the scaremongerers to lose their vice-like grip on western societies, someone needs to prove them wrong. Which group of people out there is best placed to condemn the actions of muslim extremists, since the muslims themselves seem so very reluctant to condemn suicide bombers, honor killings, the taliban, al qaeda, female genital mutilation, polygamy, the burka, and all those other things that western culture find troubling.

If I was someone who cpuld decide, I would fully allow bulding of minarets, everywhere.

And then, I would ask the building of some christian churches in the Middle East too. There's nothing wrong with that, am I right?

Your question is very valid.. It is all to do with mistrust.

However, in a free and fair society, we must not allow scaremongerers to rule the day.

Do Muslims ever stop to wonder WHY the majority of westerners have such fear and mistrust of them? Or is it just easier to complain that they aren't being treated fairly, without taking an introspective look at their own behaviour.

The exit polls being reported on Al Jazeera seem to indicate that the ban will be passed, but polling has only just closed.

you must have dug very deep to come up with such words and write them in a public forum....

I must go and get a towel now to wipe the tears from my eyes.

And to think that there is real mysery being ignored by this thinking.

so you mean no demonstrations means that all Muslims condone all kinds of Muslim extremism?

Actually there have been no demonstrations here about almost anything... does that mean that Muslims condone all the evil doings of the world?

Tolerance of extremism by Muslims is a much lesser problem than the oppression of Muslims by Nonmuslims all across the world that leads to this kind of unhealthy behavior...

but objectively speaking, the news relating to muslim extremism must be 1000 times more common than muslim non-extremism.

Many people are wondering why non-voilent muslims aren't taking to the streets to show their support for non-violence....

Can you tell me why these things are not happening?? or at least, not very much?

Why are there demonstrations on the Corniche for breast cancer and not foe non-violence?

your thought so clearly illustrates what's wrong with the West's way of thinking...

A few militant Muslims so lets get rid of all of Islam...

That's the logic behind all racist thinking

While you are at it... why just stop at getting rid of the Islamic symbols in Europe alone, go after all such symbols in the rest of the world as well...

I am not uncertain that this is not the correct path. If Islam cannot or will not control its fighters, then we will see much more of this I believe.

food for thought...