School nativity plays under threat

This is something happening in the UK which really annoys me. And I do mean REALLY!

Perhaps schools in other countries are going down this route also? Tell me please. In the Philippines, for example, or the USA ... wherever ..

I don't know, but I DO know we in the UK are being overly sensitive to other religions and this has only happened recently.

Jews and Sikhs and Buddhists (to the best of my knowledge) have never objected to or were offended by our Nativity plays in schools! And I'm sure Christian children are taught to join in other ethnic festivals at mixed religion schools also!

What's going on with the tree-huggers in the UK and who, exactly, don't they want to 'offend' with a Nativity Play????

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/02/nativity...

"Shepherds dressed in old sheets, Christmas carols and the competition to see who will play Mary and Joseph… nativity plays have been a feature of British primary-school life for generations.

But a survey has revealed that headteachers are watering down or ditching the centuries-old Christmas story in favour of secular tales to avoid upsetting pupils of other faiths."

"..The findings will add to fears that Christian teachings are being abandoned by schools, despite the wishes of parents. Recent surveys show an overwhelming majority of families would like the nativity play, telling the story of Christ's birth, to live on in schools.

"... I have never met a single Jew, Muslim, Sikh or Buddhist who has objected to the commemoration and celebration of the birth of Jesus," he said. "In Islam, he is a prophet and his birth is described in the Koran. It is not other religions that are pushing for this at all.

"If we avoid Christmas we are pandering to a secular minority and allowing the event to become all about commercialism, presents and self-indulgence".

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By Heartless• 5 Dec 2007 09:10

MattyHardingLower - just have to clarify. by saying Grace is "blah-di-blah ..." I was just pointing out to Jauntie that grace NOT purely just thanking anyone for our food, the grace that was said at the balls I attended said "Jesus Christ our lord" and that annoyed me because I don't consider him my 'lord'. wasn't taking the mickey, but i honsetly don't know the rest of it.

But anyway, most Christians are more down-to-earth about their religion and don't get agressive at incidents like the Muslims do. Think Mohammed the teddy bear vs. the way Jesus is depicted in South Park or Family guy.

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 18:19

Rating: 2/5

Well I hear there's a wise (wo) Man position open, so there you go PM. Anyway, wouldn't being the pig in the manger me worse ;) (I did always find it funny that there were always at least 2 pigs in our nativity scene, given,,,you know...that Christ was a jew and all). Anyway, good mentioning the not being from the UK. I forget sometime that as a Canadian I grew up with overt political correctness and dumped down religion and that others didn't.

"i'm not hurting anyone, i'm just telling my own truth, and if there is something wrong then maybe there's something wrong with you. why we all gotta look, why we all gotta act the same i say if you're born a lion don't bother trying to act tame." Ani Dif

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 17:59

Aint she cute !!

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 17:51

Well as someone once told me, I look like an innocent school girl...till I open my mouth. ;)

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 17:50

Aaw, Gypsy, I'm sure you were positively angelic back then ha ha.

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Love is the answer...

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 17:49

WOOHOO! I always said I was bigger then Jesus. ;) (kidding kidding, don't crucify me!)

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 17:46

Maybe a red nosed drunk in the audience !

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 17:44

clenched fists and all, as the central character! see earlier post :D

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 17:40

hehehe

definitely going now ..

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 17:37

I know all countries don't agree with me. :) That's their right. I choose to live here, so this countrie can do whatever it pleases. :) As for which character I'll play, I was always forced to play an angel every year. :P (you can picture a little 5 year old Gypsy with her fists clenched saying "But that's not how babies are made!")

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 17:34

As much as that is your belief and wish, I don't think that all countries agree with you on that one Gypsy.

So, before I sign off for today and get ready for dinner, are you going to join us in Jauntie's alternative Nativity ;) What character should you be cast as? * Hmm, frowning, rubbing chin and thinking furiously*

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Love is the answer...

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 17:32

OK - time to log out and pray I can log back in tomorrow! internet in new place is a bit iffy (have to wiggle the lead under the plug to get on line!) hahaha

If I don't make it back, save me a luminous Shepherd for my crib collection, ok? (a flashing one is an optional extra) - coarse jauntie, coarse lol I mean flashing as in lit up/lit off/lit up/lit off.

OOOh forgot about the shepherds! Lot of crooks involved .. :D

niters!

By DaRuDe• 4 Dec 2007 17:29

Jasmine is a good GIRL even if you kidnap her (which is legal for US citizen she still will forgive you)

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 17:28

Sorry DG, bad wording, if you attend a public function there should be no religion, however if you accept an invitation, then yes, you have to accept whatever they want to do.

By lima foxtrot• 4 Dec 2007 17:27

what Jasmime wrote. I've apologised and Jasime has accepted. Thank you Jasmime :)

By DaRuDe• 4 Dec 2007 17:27

do i look like a donkey to you :? hmmm ok fine just for the play do tell me how many of you i have to kick. and sorry all my camels are spitter :P

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 17:26

Blush. J, you're soooo coarse.

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Love is the answer...

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 17:24

Shouldn't what? Actually the way I feel is if I accept an invitation to a function and I decide to go then I will open myself up to what they have organised and join in the celebration in the spirit of togetherness.

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Love is the answer...

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 17:22

dweller: I do believe you put your hand up to play the part of the Donkey cos you knew I couldnt retort that you are an a$$ already! lol

However, we do happen to have a Donkey costume, but DaRuDe will have to play the part of the back legs - that OK with you up front?

DG: of course you may have the harness and wire - just make sure you wear your knickers this year, OK?

Jasmine: Maybe I missed something - am eating and one eye on TV also - I didn't notice you saying anything remotely resembling calling me patronising!

thinks! I must miss an awful lot of insults on this site lol

DaRuDe: Regarding the Camel - we need THREE of them! (friendly ones which don't spit)

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 17:20

Was it specifically a religious or private event? If it's invite and you go, then you have to put up with whatever they decide to do. That's why I bite my tongue at weddings and funerals.

But if it's public you shouldn't.

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 17:20

After all, im not religious....Just an infidel going to hell (apparently) on judgement day !!

By jasminejasmine• 4 Dec 2007 17:18

Of course I do, thanks

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 17:17

Really? Why? It was a presentation for a courageous deed. That would have been most offensive to the others. I was quite happy to listen to the melodic singing.

That would have been disrespectful and intolerant, both of which I am not.

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Love is the answer...

By lima foxtrot• 4 Dec 2007 17:17

Hope you accept my apology?

By dweller• 4 Dec 2007 17:15

Can I be the donkey?

By DaRuDe• 4 Dec 2007 17:13

Oh am afraid to say that the donkey is with Jasskat

but yea i do have camel.

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 17:12

Ooh, J, can I also be attached to that wire thingy and fly across the stage...pleeeeease?______________________________________________________

Love is the answer...

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 17:12

Oh. I would have walked out.

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 17:10

Ah, Gyps, but it was then followed by a rendition of 'Shine, Jesus, Shine'!!!

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Love is the answer...

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 17:10

her old net curtains and is cast as the Angel Gabby, and I am sewing glitter onto my bath robe as we speak to appear on stage as King Frank Incensed.

Gypsy is being given a dummy to suck and a little white bonnet, to match a pair of booties, and a crib of straw to lay on.

We haven't chosen Mary yet ... thinks .... Maybe Scarlett would do (would have to change that name, though! (and that smirk on her face)

DaRuDe I don't suppose you have a Donkey we can borrow do you?

Now - for Joseph I think richard, cos he looks like he likes leading Donkeys and virgins astray

Red Pope can be King Murmyrr

Mr Paul usually goes for Gold, so he can be the third Unwise one.

All we need now is a venue :D

By jasminejasmine• 4 Dec 2007 17:09

You misunderstood me! I was talking about the Governemt patronising us, not Jauntie. I would never accuse Jauntie of being patronising. Jauntie, I was wholeheartedly agreeing with you, I hope you know I wasn't saying it to you! I am typing with one ear on the tv, probably not articulating myself properly. I never attack individual people on QL I promise!

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 17:07

I believe there is also a petition to remove them, which they should be.

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 17:07

Rating: 2/5

Oh yes lima foxtrot, it will definitely make people resent Muslims for being 'pandered to'. That's the counter-productivity of it all. Sigh. All so unecessary.

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Love is the answer...

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 17:06

Rating: 4/5

DG, a moment to pray or reflect is not specifically religious, which is fine. Most religions and/or in general people pray or reflect. The issue is when things belong specifically and obviously to one religion or another.

By lima foxtrot• 4 Dec 2007 17:02

One place in Colorado was objecting the anyone putting lights that were "red & green", they could only put up "white" lights.

I don't know what the world is coming to!!!!!!!!!!!!

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 17:01

Rating: 3/5

http://www.petitiononline.com/tencom/petition.html

"These are the laws we live by so why take them away. The Ten Commandments are etched into a wall of the Supreme Court and the U.S. Senate starts every session with a prayer"

Just a reminder :D

Here is a list of the Ten Commandments:

1. No other gods

2. No idols

3. Do not take God’s name in vain

4. Keep the Sabbath holy

5. Honor your father and mother

6. Do not murder

7. Do not commit adultery

8. Do not steal

9. Do not give false testimony

10. Do not covet

By DaRuDe• 4 Dec 2007 17:00

going to announce the result of this topic am getting tired :?

By dweller• 4 Dec 2007 17:00

Just ignore heartless. His profile gives one of his hobbies as "controversy".

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 17:00

I don't think it is so cut and dry in the UK educational system. I think most schools have some sort of religious assembly regularly.

I remember being invited to one such weekly event in England recently and at one point all were asked to 'take a moment to pray or reflect'. No specific religion was mentioned but it was definitely a religious moment.

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Love is the answer...

By lima foxtrot• 4 Dec 2007 16:59

Rating: 4/5

Coffee with our without milk, not black or white, that way you cannot offend anyone. It is usually the top people in the council that decide these things. Don't think they have a lot to do and therefore think "what silly thing can we come up with now".

But the point is, the very people they say they don't want to offend, is the very one's they are offending. My Muslim friend in the Uk are very upset by the whole thing, as they still say "coffee, either "black or "white".

[img_assist|nid=14395|title=Smile, life is too short!!!!!!!!!!!!!!|

desc=|link=none|align=center|width=180|height=97]

By dweller• 4 Dec 2007 16:59

the UK police have always had a "Black Museum" that displayed tools (for want of a better word) used in macabre killings. A coloured policeman objected to it being called the Black Museum. I don't know how it was resolved.

Regarding black coffe, do I object if someone offers me a white coffee?

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 16:55

Private religious schools are more then welcome to their nativity plays, Eid celebrations, hell virgin sacrifices if they want. But public schools are government run, which means NO religion.

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 16:52

Any more? I could do with a big bellylaugh.

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Love is the answer...

By lima foxtrot• 4 Dec 2007 16:51

Even the Muslim's have their own schools and each celebrate their own religion.

Jasmine, I dont think Jauntie is patronsing anyone! If Qatar and other non Christian Countries can let us celebrate our Christmas, why can't the Uk do the same? You are correct about the "coffee" episode, I can remember it well. But the people they were trying not to offend are the ones they did offend! Very odd.

By jasminejasmine• 4 Dec 2007 16:49

Rating: 4/5

It's amazing isn't it? Was always too scared to ask more about it, these silly people are so earnest, they are best ignored. It's true though, they even changed the wording on the menu!

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 16:47

ROFL, Jasmine, that is hilarious! What colour is coffee without milk? Black, of course, or dark brown!

Or am I just horrendously politically incorrect????

Please advise.

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Love is the answer...

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 16:42

Jauntie, it does seem rather sad that some people in authority in the UK think that Christmas may cause offence.

In Doha every year the shops are full of Christmas trees and decorations, there are lots of Christmas functions and events to attend, and it certainly isn't offensive to me.

Who are these people in the UK, Jauntie?

Actually it is probably counter-productive and makes some resent people of faiths other than Christianity.

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Love is the answer...

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 16:41

I agree that renaming the lights and saying coffee with out milk is stupid, but schools are schools not religion classes. Like it or not the nativity play is religious and it no more belongs in the classroom then the ten commandments do in the US Supreme Court. We decided to seperate church and state hundreds of years ago for a reason.

By jasminejasmine• 4 Dec 2007 16:41

When I am talking of my own experiences I am talking about growing up in England in the 1970's and 80's. Only from my own experiences. I'm sure other places were different.

By jasminejasmine• 4 Dec 2007 16:38

Rating: 5/5

Jauntie, I am in my 30's and I think most people my age used to have Nativity plays, Harvest Festival and Advent Calenders (In the 70's there was no chocolate, just a picture of an Elf). I sympathise with you and quite understand the point you are trying to make. I think MattyHarding and Dweller have summed it up. Last year the Muslim Society asked local authorities not to rename their lights and celebrations on their behalf. They are not offended by it. When I worked at Charing Cross Hospital in the 90's a memo was sent out to all staff saying we had to ask for "coffee without milk" instead of black coffee in the canteen in case someone else in the queue was embarassed. I don't want to offend anyone and I agree with many of the "limp wristed, bleeding heart leftie" ideas put forward by New Labour that ensure that people are not offended or made to feel uncomfortable but don't agree with patronising anyone.

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 16:36

You can celebrate in your way. The Muslims and others are celebrating their traditions at home and in the mosques/temples, and if there is enough of a population in the stores. But not in the schools. Schools are not for religion.

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 16:33

Where I live in UK I see other religions celebrate their festivals in THEIR ways and so I get a bit miffed when some lefties decide we can't celebrate OUR traditional festivals the way we, generally speaking, ALWAYS have!

What next? The Salvation Army won't be allowed to sing Christmas Carols at Victoria Station in case it offends a passing Mormon Pigeon?

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 16:32

May possibly just have been your experience Gypsy. In Canada, like any other country, wherever there are Muslims, there will be Eid. Usually it's community based so perhaps you were simply unaware.

Miss a chance to party?! Never!!_______________________________________________________

Love is the answer...

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 16:25

I like British traditions and I still include the Nativity Play, usually put on by primary schools, with young children looking really sweet, dressed up in their mum's old net curtains (if angels) and old dressing gowns (if wise kings), occasionally getting stage fright and wetting themselves, or knocking half the scenery down and the Crib containing the baby Jesus with it lol, as one of those 'traditions'!

Bit like pantomime really - well, with a religious slant, of course! It IS to celebrate Jesus' birthday after all!

And watching those innocent little brats performing the Nativity on stage usually reduces me to tears - partly laughter, but mostly because of their innocence.

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 16:22

Must just have been my experience Diamondgirl, I never remember it being mentioned in Canada, or Diwali.

By lima foxtrot• 4 Dec 2007 16:16

Rating: 2/5

Just reading all the comments & found the one from Gipsy saying "Eid isn't really celebrated by Muslims outside of the Middle East and neither is Diwal"

My friends in the Uk celebtate both Eid & Diwali.

Also the town I come from in the UK have lights around the town saying "Happy Diwali".

You will also find in the UK, most schools have students from all religions, even Church schools.

By lima foxtrot• 4 Dec 2007 16:09

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 16:07

lima foxtrot, ditto, ditto, it seems we were typing at the same time!_______________________________________________________

Love is the answer...

By diamond• 4 Dec 2007 16:05

Rating: 5/5

Gypsy, if I may point out something as an aside to the discussion...

You said that Eid really isn't celebrated outside of the Middle East.

Actually it very much is in all countries where there are Muslims residing. Perhaps not all celebrate but for most Muslims Eid is a really big deal...both Eid Al Fitr and Eid Al Adha.

Even in countries where Islam is a minority religion it is celebrated. I shall be in New York in the next few days and have already received several Eid Al Adha invites (and I don't mean just the official/royal/ diplomatic ones). I spent Eid Al Fitr in Paris as I was working and there was a lot going on there too. _______________________________________________________

Love is the answer...

By MattyHardingLower• 4 Dec 2007 15:37

Neither my children or I are religious....that is the point. To me and my children it was just a play.....My son was recently in a school production of "The Happy Prince", I never for one moment assumed it might upset Victorian Orphan Children.

In your words

" Grace says blah-di-blah-di Jesus Christ our lord.

The call to prayer sounds like... well I won't say what it sounds like to me."

Your ignorance is comical. It was funny how you find the courage to insult the Christian faith but not the Islamic.

Dont respond to any of my posts and i'll kindly return the compliment on everything you post. Your the kind of person i like to avoid.

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 15:32

So let me see....Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Kosovo, the middle east,Iraq,and all the ethnic cleansing that goes on around the world !

Seems to me that religion is in amongst that lot somewhere.

And my post isnt an "Idiot" post.....Ive been to war and seen the horrible stuff that exists there, so dont bloody patronise me with your comments.

War isnt funny...And when you have lost a mate like i have, maybe you will understand !

By Scarlett• 4 Dec 2007 15:30

Rating: 5/5

people who take it to extremes, that aren't. Therefore, it HAS been the main cause of most wars in this world.

Nativity scenes..never saw one growing up, while in school...church yes, but they separated it from school. Bu then again, I attended public schools. We always had Christmas programs and decorated the rooms with trees, santas, snowmen, and gave gifts to everyone. We all knew what was the basis behind Christmas just didn't go all out with the religious factions. Nowdays the reason that Christmas isn't used around this time of year stems back to the atheists so get offended just hearing the word Christmas because it has the word Christ in it. They would go so far as to get upset at the morning prayer (understandably as which religious group got to pray? Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Muslim, Hindu?) So, we went to a moment of silence..which was wonderful because you could either meditate, pray, or stare at your toes...

Now that being said..having taught school we almost always had at least one student who was Muslim...and that poor child had to sit in the room while the other students with to lunch, during Ramadan. I remember going in to get something for my son, and she, who was 8 at the time, was crying because she was so hungry and didn't want to be left out of her friends lunchtime...but it was her parents who insisted that she not go) The Jehovah's Witnesses started the "no images of anything other than Jesus" in the classroom..their children used to sit outside the classrooms while gift were exchanged, had to have separate worksheets, if there was an image of a snowman or Santa on it(or anything that didn't pertain to Jesus..that was alright)...Its hard to balance everything in the schools. You certainly have to have the child attend school, but its not right to have to make the child sit outside or not participate in class activities, especially when they are too young to understand WHY they are being left out of the fun things.

Personally, I wish they would still allow the word Christmas to come into the school..along with the festivities...leave the images in the classroom, and let children, be children...perhaps if we all did that, then the world might be a better place and more tolerant towards others.

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 15:14

edited : double post sorry.

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 15:12

SG ,

It's Interpretation and overinterpretation :)Religion is harmless.

Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise

By Heartless• 4 Dec 2007 15:11

er... thanks for that. but i really don't care what everyone else says.

point is the people organising a ball made the assumption that all Brits are Christian and imposed that on people, and i got annoyed (being non-Christian obviously) and i don't think they should do it in the UK either.

In the Western world we are supposed to be better than that, and should keep religion up to everyone's freedom personal choice.

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 15:08

I actually was delighted when I knew I was coming back to the ME.

Grace is probably said all over the world one way or another to celebrate the fact you actually have something to EAT!

Traditional and Multifaith Blessings

Buddhist blessing. Translated it is something like this: "For every grain of rice we are thankful for 1000s of workers. For every drop of rain we are thankful for God's blessings. Amen

Simple Jewish prayer, "Blessed art thou O Lord my God, King of the universe, who brings forth the bread from the earth.

An old Scottish blessing: Some hae meat and cannae eat. Some nae meat but want it. We hae meat and we can eat and sae the Lord be thankit.

A Hindu blessing:

This ritual is one. The food is one. We who offer the food are one. The fire of hunger is also one. All action is one. We who understand this are one.

By Heartless• 4 Dec 2007 14:59

well jauntie it was your choice to move here, i moved here in the knowledge its a muslim country, no worries.

Grace says blah-di-blah-di Jesus Christ our lord.

The call to prayer sounds like... well I won't say what it sounds like to me but i don't feel like the guy is trying to act as though he represents my views.

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 14:53

If I can enjoy listening to the 'call to prayer' 5 times a day without feeling it impinges on my own religion, I think you can sit through 'grace' at an organised dinner. The words for 'grace' simply thank God for what you are about to eat.

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 14:50

which Gypsy mentioned. Yet another festival of history and tradition for all to enjoy :D

Frog? not sure I understood your post to me:

"Those are excuses excuses excuses. Faith frightens those who are too used to emptiness."

Was it something I said? *gulp*

By Heartless• 4 Dec 2007 14:46

Mattyhardinglower, you can have fun and watch your kids perform without making it a religious thing. Ever heard of play?

By Heartless• 4 Dec 2007 14:45

Rating: 4/5

Nativity scenes should be reserved for Christian schools, not public schools.

The international schools here don't make the students pray or learn the Qoran. Each person should be free to undertake their own religion without having to go through the discomfort of someone elses.

Incidentally I attended 2 seperate balls in Doha this year where 'grace' was said before the meal. Aside from being in a muslim country, not every Aussie or Brit is Christian and I found that offensive, because the institutions organising them weren't religious!

By swissgirl39• 4 Dec 2007 14:42

Rating: 3/5

so whats in your eyes the cause of most wars today?and also in the past?

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By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 14:36

MR PAUL What a "simple" mind you have : bla bla bla religion is the cause of wars . There is a French interjection that could be an answer to your "Idiot" post : BOF :D

Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 14:25

small world of ours.

There is nothing wrong with not been religious, who are you people to judge or force your beliefs down my throat !

Each to their own i say !

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 14:17

jauntie,

Those are excuses excuses excuses. Faith frightens those who are too used to emptiness :)

Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise

By MattyHardingLower• 4 Dec 2007 14:09

Rating: 4/5

.....for the state of affairs like ths in the UK, its purely down to the Government and its 'over the top' pandering. Natvity plays are Traditional, itsa Chrisitan religious tale of course, but in all the plays I was in and all the plays my children were in, it was all about having fun and telling a story. Im not religious in any way and have never forced my kids to believe anyhting. (They can make up their own minds later on.)

What i do recall was how much fun we had and how proud i was to perform as a child and to watch my children perform more recently. Religion didnt even enter the equation.

Its all going way too far. Im sick of it...

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 14:03

Rating: 2/5

Meh, I'm happy being a tree hugger. I hated being forced to be in my churches nativity, much less forced to sit through another one at school. ZZZZZ.

I say if you're going to celebrate British culture why not celebrate Beltane or some other Druid festival.

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 13:55

I think, like Gypsy just said it's the 'tree hugger point of view' :D

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 13:47

Christianity is a religion, not a culture. Religion belongs in churches not in schools. But I guess that's just my leftie, tree hugger point of view.

By dweller• 4 Dec 2007 13:43

Rating: 2/5

Muslim thinker Manzoor Moghal accuses secularists of teaming up with practitioners of what he termed "political correctness" for the decline of the Nativity play.

"I can assure you Muslims do not take offence at Nativity plays," says Mr Moghal, chairman of the Leicester-based Muslim Forum.

"Britain is a Christian country and the majority of people are Christians. We enjoy your festivities and we like to learn about them.

"This is a mistaken, misguided and misrepresentative policy: we should celebrate the freedom to celebrate our faith."

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 13:43

is that all I, and others brought up as Christians in the UK, hold dear is being whittled away in our own country and all because some lefties in the Education Authorities 'don't want to offend' other cultures. Don't want to offend them in OUR country? In our culture?

I'd like to see those same people live in other countries outside of the UK and find out exactly how soft the 'would-be offended' are on them!

Oh I give up -

By swissgirl39• 4 Dec 2007 13:39

Rating: 4/5

yes,thats true.and as i can see they are more liberal as the muslims in the middle east.they allow the kids to go to church,or celebrate christmas,also easter.are they now bad Muslims or what?We have many of them here in Swiss and as i said,most of them are liberal,friendly,nice and intersted in our culture.Happy to have some as my friends here.

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By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 13:37

Rating: 2/5

Well where I live in the UK it's like July Fourth every year - so our Indian friends definitely celebrate it there.

In fact the first month I lived in Bedford I thought I was back in ME, cos I heard the 'call to prayer' and it was Muslims on a peace march after the UK underground bombings - the christians and sikhs walked with them.

A month later I heard drums, and then saw the Sikhs coming down the road!! in their orange robes followed by floats with people playing sytars and other musical instruments. So THEY were celebrating publicly in the UK

The Muslims don't 'march' a lot or 'let off fireworks' but my tutor friend assures me that Eid was celebrated at her college in UK.

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 13:35

So what's the lesson we want kids to learn here? You're different so you have to be left out of things your friends do? THere aren't enough of you so you don't get to have a festival so either join in ours or go away? Sorry but is that what people really want?

I mean church is there for a reason.

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 13:32

But yes, it's the 'bonkers' bit I'm on about.

Gypsy, my mother wouldn't let me join the 'Brownies' because the friend I wanted to join with belonged to a Church of England pack. I simply took it on board. Was disappointed, but there you go. I guess same would go for you if you have children and don't want them to be a part of something you don't agree with.

I'm sure you will find lots of parents who feel the same way as you and so your children won't go without a party or five! :D

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 13:30

Rating: 2/5

I had some Muslim friends in Canada, and even attended an iftar with them, but never heard Eid mentioned till I came here.

Also Swissgirl, Kosvo has A LOT of Muslims.

By swissgirl39• 4 Dec 2007 13:29

Rating: 4/5

i have some Muslim friends living in Kosovo and they celebrate Eid.

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By dweller• 4 Dec 2007 13:26

Rating: 5/5

we had nativity plays at Infant & Junior schools in the UK. I think you are correct in saying that "Political correctness" has gone bonkers. The UK government have bent over backwards for minority groups and there are those that want more. Christmas lights having to be called Seasonal or Winter lights. Frankly I think it sucks and that was partly why we left the UK.

We ridiculed Qatar in 1983 when Christmas was officially banned and Merry Crimble was the greeting (even on QBS). The Doha Club was raided Father Christmas arrested and decorations removed just before the kids party. How times have changed.

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 13:26

Rating: 3/5

No they didn't. Even if they did there were only 2 of them so the school wasn't going to hold a whole festival for two children. Eid isn't really celebrated by Muslims outside of the Middle East and neither is Diwali, so it isn't done in schools, and anyway, why put on a festival for only a couple of children.

I don't know about schools in England, but schools in Canada are experiencing cutbacks and you can't put on a festival for every child all the time. Better to have one festival a year that every child can participate in.

Personally I don't believe Jesus was the son of God or follow Christian, Muslim, what have you teachings, and wouldn't want my children to, so what festival would they be part of?

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 13:22

As Gypsy said, the children probably don't understand why their parents wont allow them to join in with another religious group's festival.

So it isn't the kids, is it. Wonder what I would have been like as a Mother.....

hmmmm

Think it's almost time for the sundowner on the balcony :D

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 13:19

didn't the Mormons have any particular days for celebrating?

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 13:18

Rating: 4/5

Christmas is one of those festivals. Now some are saying they will celebrate with a Christmas 'play' rather than the nativity play.

It's quite possible some of the baptised Christian kids never go to Church, but for heavensake the nativity and carol singing are a big part of Christmas. Let the Church have it's crib and Midnight Masses for the adults, and let the children see the Nativity as a bit of wonder and excitement during the run-up to Christmas Day - something they can dress up for and be involved in.

I believe Jesus was born, and I believe he was born in Bethlehem. I believe he was a very good man - why not celebrate his birth in the school. Schoolchildren of any beliefs are taught how to celebrate their religion at the school desk and are given projects to make the celebration GREAT!

Don't tell me the Indian school children here didn't organise events to celebrate Diwani or the Muslim school kids didn't arrange school activities to celebrate the Eid following Ramadan!

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 13:10

There parents explaining it to them didn't stop them from crying everytime they had to go sit in the office while we drank juice and ate Christmas cookies.

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 13:08

If the Mormon kids couldn't go to your Christmas party it was because their parents wouldn't let them go. And the parents would probably have explained to their children WHY they weren't allowed to go. Although I honestly didn't think of the Osmond Bros as Mormons who never got involved in Christmas - they were the stalwarts of Christmas Parties some years ago with their music! lol

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 13:05

Jauntie, if it's so important for these Christians to put on a nativity play they should do it in church were it belongs, not in a school.

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 13:04

Rating: 3/5

Yes they do Jauntie. There are kids who are going to want to be part of the nativity play but can't. Like all the Mormon kids I went to school with who couldn't go to our Christmas parties. Kids don't understand religion, all they know is that they are being left out. Also Christians are the majority in the West so the chances of a school having enough children to put on a festival from another culture is slim to none, which means these kids never get to participate in anything.

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 13:04

down anyone elses throat.

I just don't see why a traditional Christian Play, in a country where the 'National Religion' (i.e the Queen is the head of the Church of England) is Christianity, should be subject to cancellation to appease non-Christians!

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 13:03

Alexa,

lol looking for compromises . je sais pas pourquoi mais ta photo me trouble :D

Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 13:01

Those who are in the Nativity play are in it because that's their upbringing.

The others don't have to be in it or a party to it - they have their own festivals in which they are the key participants according to THEIR upbringing.

No one misses out.

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 12:56

Well Jauntie, in my school it used to be tradition for children graduating to dance with one of their parents the first dance of the prom (sons with mothers, daughters with fathers). My year we realized that we had a number of students who didn't have mothers and/or fathers to dance with (no different then any other year, we just noticed). Despite the administration and many parents telling us we should go ahead and do the dance we protested out of kindness for those of our peers who wouldn't be able to. We won out and the dance was cancelled.

I think of nativity plays in much the same way, they are only good to do if EVERYONE can participate, not just the lucky few.

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 12:55

About 25 years ago (my how time flies when you are enjoying yourself!) a friend was staying with us and his little girl (about 5 years old) was restless, so I said I'd read to her from my favourite childhood book. A sort of fairytale about a little man and his little house and his little dog etc

She got even more bored, and her father said to me 'it's not violent enough'

AAAAAAAARGH

So, yes, I live in fantasy land and times have changed.

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 12:52

Europe seems to be constantly afraid of any religion tendencey , be it Christianity , Islam, or Judaism. People have suffered a lot because of the missuse of religious beliefs. It's a pity, those plays seem so peaceful , they may give a spiritual break to students engaged in that non-ending run caled Life :)

Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 12:52

because I went to a Catholic Convent! That works lol

But I think other Christian Schools maybe had the Nativity Play - not sure, except that if now they say only 1 in 5 puts them on in schools in UK then they MUST have been prevalent before the State Schools became so multi-cultural.

I still don't understand why it would be considered offensive (self EDIT: Why am I even using the word 'offensive' in relation to this?) especially if the parents want them to continue. The other children don't have to take part, just join in with the Christmas parties, same as ours do with THEIR diwanis and eid parties.

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 12:48

jauntie , maybe your post time is delayed because you're talking about religion, and religion is now considered as part of "history" :D

Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 12:44

Rating: 3/5

Jauntie, nothing is like when we were children and times are changing the world has rotated and many different cultures are living together, so we have to move with the times.

I never got into a nativity play because I was always to outspoken to the nuns, and my family always wished I would one day enter a convent - never happened.

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 12:44

it's 15.13 isn't it?

By jauntie• 4 Dec 2007 12:41

Rating: 3/5

frog says French muslimas had to remove veils

canary says German schools had to remove crosses and holy pictures

I call that a 'tie' or 'draw' in the first instance.

Frog the nativity play is simply to do with the birth of Jesus and how Mary )accompanied by Joseph) rode on a Donkey to Bethlehem where he was eventually born in a stable, because there was no room at the Inn. I'm sure you know the story, so I shan't retell it here.

It's fundamental to the Christian belief - the Birth of Jesus Christ our Saviour.

It is something every 7 year old Christian kid loves being a part of - the Nativity Play with it's Three Wise Kings carrying gifts and Angels all over the place lol and animals at the crib etc.

It doesn't go into all the dogma - just a play about where the Scriptures say he was born. Nice BIG star above the stable which allegedly led the 3 wise blokes to the venu. :D

By Gypsy• 4 Dec 2007 12:38

Rating: 5/5

I've never attended a school that had a nativity play. Nativity plays were done in Sunday School at church or at church organized functions. In my opinion religions should have NO part in schools whatsoever, they should only be taught from a historical point of view.

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 12:32

In German in Bavaria the made decision to remove all crosses and holy picturs out of classrooms as many of the schools were muticultural.

It met with big oposition at first but finally they did it.

By anonymous• 4 Dec 2007 12:26

Good afternoon jauntie,

I understand your frustration, but I think all schools are going the same way lately. Remember French schools obliging muslim girls to uncover their heads. I believe there must be a space left to all religions inside and outside schools. One does not get rid of his/her believes once in a classroom, so why he/she should not celebrate those religious ceremonies.

jauntie could you please explain what is narrated on those plays. Because I guess some historical truths could be controversial. and this is maybe the cause of that tendency to avoid them all.

Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise

By TweetyBird• 4 Dec 2007 12:16

Rating: 5/5

I'm from the US and the public school that my children attended has never offered a nativity play to the best of my knowledge and my kids are older - 13 and 16. But in recent years the school has gotten away from using the word Christmas - i.e., the Christmas concert became the holiday concert, the Christmas tree is the holiday tree, etc. I've never considered it a bad thing as my children were taught about Hanukkah and Kwanzaa. This does not mean that Christmas was ignored or considered tabu - it just simply meant other holidays occuring in December were included in the festivities.

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