Joe millionaire

Oh my that was a long read.lol.....i was baiting u by that Darwin comment....but it was only because u bugged me so much with that "we`re all animals comment'........also i thought this would be acontraversial topic................ I just really enjoy contraversy

I I JUST LOVED READING THE COMMENTS BACK AND FORTH

i`d like to totally agree with butterfly and dentist about what they said and add that the reason people who believe in god are less prone to depression is that they know that they are taken care of ..that they are being watched over and that even if the goning gets tough they`ll come out on top ..they try their best and give every thing 100% do and then go home and have a good nights rest and not worry about a thing `cause a higher being is doing the rest...as opposed to taking on the world alone ...and feeling that u are responsible from a-z......

I know u don`t like what you read and i`m not very good at explaining stuff

Is it possible that life is all a series of coincidences....there is no scheme no big design were just floating around doing what we want without consequence and then we die?

And i don`t agree that religion was "invented" because of a fear of death

Is it "mother nature" or "father evolution" makes a heart beat?..and what about the soul?..does that exist........what makes u die ?u`r heart stopped ...u can go on life support...but you`ll still be dead....o.k so maybe it was brain death...have a brain transplant you`ll still be dead.....

what about life super7? u`r saying it was a big accident it had no point or purpose it just happened by its self? what was the cause ..there should be a cause or reason for everything.

Scientists are cloning now but i know they will never be able to create from scratch...

WHO OR WHAT CAUSES LIFE & DEATH????.lili.

"Please show me where a medical journal says that people who believe in God "have less risk of.....any other mental illness". Mmmm please."

Ok, so I had to search thru a lot of medical journals! But there are studies that claim so. Anyone interested can do their own research.

THis comes from the August 1999 issue of the Journal of Gerontology: Medical Sciences -- came out of a study examining almost 4,000 North Carolina residents aged 64 to 101.

"Among the most recent findings in this area: People who attend religious services at least once a week are less likely to die in a given period of time than people who attend services less often. People who attended religious services at least once a week were 46 percent less likely to die during the six-year study, says lead author Harold G. Koenig, M.D., of Duke University Medical Center in Durham, North Carolina. "When we controlled for such things as age, race, how sick they were and other health and social factors, there was still a 28 percent reduction in mortality," he says.

Koenig, a psychiatrist, says that the regular churchgoers showed a reduction in their mortality rate comparable to that of people who don't smoke over those who do.

Other large studies have had similar results. Some smaller studies have also shown that spirituality may be beneficial: People who attend religious services, or who feel they are spiritual, experience lower levels of depression and anxiety; display signs of better health, such as lower blood pressure and fewer strokes; and say they generally feel healthier".

Super 7, I think lower levels of depression and anxiety could mean a better mental health.

Giasi, still thinking that's anecdotal evidence?

Butterfly I agree completely. Find me a brazilian. I will even say I believe in God if she plays beach volley ball. Or an argentinian - sensational.

What about the spanish? Got any single friends?

My spanish is excellent. Hola! Que tal? QUe hay en el bolso? Hay una boccadilla con queso e una camera fotographica.

I love English foreign language teaching. All the useful stuff!

Trust me on this one, I've chosen my own way too. I respect the education that I received but questioned it many times. I had a long period of atheism and reading Marx and Nietzsche and kafka and all that.

I believe what I want and choose to believe.

Giasi that is very very tough to apply though. By far the majority of people inherit their religion. It is very difficult for many to question something that has been drilled into them from a young age. Even then they will be culturally biased. For example a muslim will in all likelehood have been brought up with explanations of the perils of alcohol and the consequences of using it. A Christian would have their own different prejudices. To break free of that is very difficult. Which is why religion is so firmly linked to background. I doubt very much that the majority of people in Qatar independently chose islam after a reasoned consideration of the other options in the same way that a british christian wouldn't have.

Ha! It is amazing how a forum can start with a stupid american show and end up questioning the rightness of free sex, evolutionist theories and the existence of god.

My brain can't cope with this one anymore.

You know what, my brother (as much as I love him) used to be a atheist, womaniser, inmoral *hole. He moved to Brazil a while ago for a long term work project, found himself a brasilian girlfried and ever since he is a different man! (I think he even goes to church now!).

I reckon you should do the same, Super 7, find yourself a brasilian girlfriend -make sure (as I'm sure you will) that she is actually a woman as apperances in Brazil can be deceiving. She will be so posesive, bossy and demanding that you will not have the time, energy or motivation to think about free sex, the negative sides of marriage or to question the existence of God.

You are doing yourself a great disservice if you follow a way of life that you inherited from your parents. Even though i dont subscribe to supers philosophy, i do admire the fact that he chose his own way.

Everyone owes it to him/herself to question these beliefs and to arrive at their own conclusions. We are all intelligent human beings (i reserve judgement on some people) and we will ultimately discover our own truth.

Respect

GIASI

It is not in my human nature. I have never (and I mean this) ever believed in God. When I was younger I was too afraid to admit it (just in case!).

The idea of God came from the brain (where else) but it is only human nature to try to explain everything. When things are beyond their power of explanation they create God.

The Sun used to be a god. Now we can explain it (what it is, how it works, where it is) it isn't.

Ok, sorry, I was in a hurry and the expression "God is in the brain" was wrong. What I meant to say was that the idea of god, its perception resides in our brain. Is human nature.

But yes, religion is a man made thing in my opinion. There are all right in some ways and wrong in others. Guess I stick to mine because of my background and education and the fact that it works just fine with me, but that doesn't make it righter than others.

Butterfly I have read all I need to now about Neurotheology. Basically that religion and religious symbols can induce a biochemical reaction in the brain. Funnily enough you can conversely it seems also produce a religious experience (what people perceive as religious through millenia of indoctrination - bright lights etc) by playing with the brain's chemistry.

I have no problem with any of these facts. They do not however mean that god resides in the brain. Don't have time to write more.

Dentist that I believe an explosion started the universe does not make it my god. Why, because for me God is something supernatural and I don't believe in that.

That said, I am not completely averse to the idea of God. I don't think there is one but I can't say there isn't.

What I do happen to have a bit of a problem with is organised religion. All of them.

I don't like that they all consider themselves "the right one" even when that is so obviously unfair. Remember by far the majority of people inherit religion from their parents so isn't it grossly unfair on those children borne muslim/christian/jewish if the other one is right?

Dentist I am not sure I completely believe what you are saying. You are trying to argue that a muslims belief in God is the same as my belief in nature. Well I think you believe in some kind of intelligence where as I think there is no such intelligence.

I see what you are saying dentist regarding the thought that there must be a higher power controlling it. I think that it stems from the fact that without a god life can seem pointless. Why are there all these physical and chemical laws, etc if there is no point. Well at the moment my answer is just because. There is no point. It just is. You might scoff at this weak answer but i would ask you what a religious man thinks the point is? To praise god maybe but what for, well to live in eternal happiness, yeah but what for, well just because. I think we will end up in the same place. Sorry if that was confusing but I am typing fast.

I also stick to my guns about religion being created to make death less scary. It is awfully sad to think that once you die that is it, eternal nothingness but that is the fact. I believe belief in an afterlife is a perfect way of making it seem a little less frightening.

Translation "Lilipink, you have started an argument that resulted in too complicated expressions that I am too ignorant to keep up with"....man I'm tired of having to refer to www.dictionary.com with each post you or butterfly add ;) lol

Sometimes it's just more fun to use your own cultural expressions to make a joke...you will like it when you learn it inshaAllah

I have to go, so I'll be quick.

First of all... Duh, Super 7. I'm not a doctor but I'm sure there is a relation between conjuctivitis and blidness. Might be wrong.

Also, Have you ever heard of neurotheology? Newsweeks and the gurdian run an article about it a while ago. God is actually in our brain. Many neurothologists have scientifically studied the healing powers of faith. It's got something to do with the amigdala and the cognitive behaviour. Will look something for you in the internet later. A good book to start with is "the god part of the brain" M. ALper.

Of course there are lots of crazy religious people. No doubt about that. But the pure believe of a superior being is a human instict. I think you have to take religions as a form of explaining that superiour being and make a bit of sense to that.

Ok have to go. Bye

Butterfly,

You are very wise and I admire your opinions about marriage and religion.

Though we adopt different religiong yet we share a lot of beleifs in common.

One thing I would like to clarify is that in Muslim religion we all exist to WORSHIP God (Allah)....this could be acheived through every single act we do on a daily basis...not just going to Mosques or doing certain prayers.

We beleive that marriage is worshipping, work is worshipping, raising our children is worshipping, being nice to the poor is worshipping, fighting for our beleifs is worshipping, going for a picnic with yout friends and family on a weekend and enjoying the beautiful weather and the nice scenery is also worshipping.

and also as you said,passing on our genes to the next generations and teaching them what we have learnt is also worshipping and this is trhe whole purpose of our existance...to Worship God

Why in Arabic dentist?

Phew... butterfly.. whats wrong with you? now look what yove done :)

No... joking aside.. i agree with super that you really shouldnt quote anecdotal statistics. I know lots of crazy religious people.

What i do agree with is that the stability of a monogomous relationship within the expected social boundaries may give some sense of security which in turn may make an individual feel he/she is happy.

Humans will, by nature, come to a point where they ask the big "why am i here?" question. Whether u find solace in religion, philosophy, science etc will depend on your own individual needs and understanding. None of us will prescribe to a way of life we are not satisfied with.

What im saying is... if your way of life satisfies a need and goes someway to making you happy and you havent dismissed the alternatives without examining them, then go for it, whatever it is.

Respect

GIASI

One good thing abuot being away from this comunity for a long time is when you come back to discussion threads you get the whole picture...while when you follow up one thread and wait for the next you actually lose track of some ideas..

Reading this discussion I can tell (in my opinion) that butterfly and super7 have very close ideas...they agree about many common things...you just disagree about their justification or naming.

Super7,

You seem like a very educated person...I have to admit this...I also have to admit that I can't compete with you in a long argument...neither my language nor my knowlege can help me out on this..

BUT...I was just wondering about one thing...if you beleive in something that has started this universe,whether it is evolution or explosion or whatever...doesn't that make it your God ???

My point is, we (religious people...and particularly muslims) don't see God, we can't see him or touch him or feel him (by the way "him" in the arabic language is used for any one/thing/entity without a gender)...

but we can KNOW God through his effects...through his creation...we call this higher power God, others call it Fire, some call it Nature ...it doesn't matter...if you beleive in a higher power then this mean you beleive in God.

The normal logical observation of anything that goes on and of any scientific fact should lead you ultimately to the fact that there must be a higher power taking control over things...and not like you say we beleive in God because we realised we are dying.

Death is fact and it is one of the signs that God give us to show his almightiness....despite all the scientific acheivements no one could or will defete or cheat death...

About free sex, I agree that it would be the sweetest thing, just like when you do drugs, it is so sweet but I wish it didn't have all the consequences it has...that's why we need to stick to marriage and our religions (or call it morals or traditions) in order to enjoy the divine bounty of sex without hurting or being hurt by anyone.

Lilipink....enty ebtadaity mawdoo3 baseet 2alab b kalam kebeeeeer awyyyyy ana mesh fahem menno ayyyyyy 7aga ;) lol

GIASI,

Every time you fill gas into your car....remember the 150,000 years you are wondering about...hopeyou got my point.

It's all turned into oil my friend...and may be 150,000 years from now we will also turn into some gas into someones car ;) lol

Just a thought!!!!!!!

Hmm butterfly you started off well. I certainly agree that it does seem that the only "truth" in our and every other living thing's existence is the need to procreate. The struggle to pass on one's DNA to the next generation is universal.

I do however dispute the "science" which you so liberally quote in your reply. "a sceintific fact" of a superior being....well no I don't think so. Belief for me is so simply explained I am still amazed that so many people believe in God (let alone organised religion). Observation of the evolution of man discussed yesterday shows the beginning of ritual burial (and effectively religion) coincides with self awareness. i.e. once people realised that dying was something that was going to happen to them they got afraid and hoped for an afterlife. Not one of the three major monotheistic religions has a place for animals and yet quite obviously that is what we are.

How on earth can you argue that people who believe in God are more capable of achieving things? What spurious science or propaganda could possibly claim that. Perhaps because most major science was done by people who believed in God. Hardly surprising when most major science was done in the past. Please show me where a medical journal says that people who believe in God "have less risk of.....any other mental illness". Mmmm please.

Here is a quote from the American Psychiatric Institute "According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR; American Psychiatric Association, 2000), delusions are "erroneous beliefs that usually involve a misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. Their content may include a variety of themes (e.g., persecution, referential, somatic, religious, or grandiose)...The distinction between a delusion and a strongly held idea is sometimes difficult to make and depends in part on the degree of conviction with which the belief is held despite clear contradictory evidence regarding its veracity" That sounds a lot like people who believe in God to me!

Certainly human beings have developed a very complex society. This is in fact a meme (rather than a gene) as it is a human construct that aids our survival and makes it more likely our offspring will make it to sexual maturity. You have argued that the institute of marriage is simply one of these aids. I think this may have had more validity in early society where the social infrasructure was less well established. Now I am not so sure. Remember I said that marriage itself was the issue. However, I think that living with the mother of your child in a monogamous relathioship is probably a good thing based on the arguments you presented.

I don't hink it is a VERY dangerous choice to have sex with multiple partners. No doubt your risks are increased but then I don't imagine even you subscribe to a risk free life. I feel the risk is minimal when compared to the upside.

The book came up because the topic evolved to evolution.

By the chlamydia actually does affect the carrier. It can damage a woman's reproductive organs and cause infertility. It can cause pneumonia and conjunctivitis in infants. Not blindness.

Please stop with "survival of the fittest".

No doubt the book will be an interesting read. But I cannot see the relation with the topic here: free sex.

This is how I see it. Why are we here? What is the meaning of our lives? To me the answer is simple: To ensure the survival of the human specie. In short, to procreate. We are not here to accomplish some divine wish or to pursue our demanding career with so much ambition that it leaves time for little else in our lives. We are here to pass our genes to our next generation and ensure that they grow strong and confident. That should be the purpose of everyone’s life. Without that accomplished, our lives will be empty and pointless.

Look at every human society on earth , whether monogamist or polygamist, the concept of matrimony is there. It is not specific to a named religion but common to all. Even atheist societies will have the concept of marriage. That’s because a child, in order to grow strong,( the survival of the fittest) need a strong attachment between both his mother and his father and he needs them both equally. And so the objective of marriage is, again, valid to ensure the survival of the human specie.

Free sex might be fun for some, but it is a very dangerous choice, it carries too many risks. Look at the rise of Sexually transmitted diseases. It is not only what you can get, but the fact that a woman infected with aids will pass the illness to her offspring. Or clamimydia, that does not carry complications for the infected person, will give you a blind child with lungs disease. The list goes on. Promiscuity maybe fun for some, but it makes very little sense.

About religion. Well I cannot explain God to you or to anyone. But the idea of a “superior being� is a human instinct. It is in our brains (a scientific fact) . In fact, those who believe in God live longer, have less risk of depression or any other mental illness and are more capable of achieving things. Religion makes us stronger, somehow. Again the survival of the fittest

Butterfly Giasi etc. Here is a link to some extracts from the book the blind watchmaker. Perhaps enough to whet your appetite although its incompleteness can be frustrating

http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Books/blind.shtml

Butterfly.... http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140144811/qid=1140946018/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_3_2/026-1934469-7103662

Is a good book to start with

I don't find it boring. It's very interesting to me. Please keep the comments coming. I will give my own opinion later.

I want to read that book. Guess I won't be able to find it in Qatar, am afroid...

super7... i see you are adept at this... maybe i should go read up on this before i cross swords with you again :) i fear my incomplete information will take me up the creek without the proverbial paddle.

it is refreshing to joust with such a worthy opponent :)

in the immortal words of big arnie "i'll be back"

Respect

GIASI

An outside estimate of the age of Homo Sapiens Sapiens is 100,000 years.

In fact Giasi fossil tools have been found dating back almost 2.5 million years.

I would imagine that culture and art (including religion) developed later (oldest paintings about 35,000 years ago) once humans became self aware. Remember though that painting will have been an invention and it is no wonder it took a long time to develop. Perhaps culture was there but no one had invented a way of recording it for posterity, perhaps they drew with a stick in he sand.

The earliest burial was about 300,000 years ago and suggests the beginning of religious belief. It could only come once the brain was self aware and our descendents realised that as their peers died then so must they. Thus they began to mark death as a ritual.

The trouble with the transitional evidence argument is the fact that the fossil record is absolutely minute. Virtually no animals actually survive in the fossil record so to expect to find this complete picture is impossible. That said there are now a great variety of transitional fossils that have been discovered.

Thermodynamic argument is also not relevant. One the world is not a closed system (the sun provides energy etc) and also (perceived) order will always arise in a complex system (take snowflakes, sand dunes etc). Perceived order and disorder arise in all areas of existence without any involvement from anything.

I will if i can get it.

Just a couple of questions that bug me.

Modern man has been around for about 200,000 years yet no evidence of culture (tools, musical instruments, painting etc etc) older than 50,000 years has been discovered... what was going on in the 150,000 preceeding that?

In your giraffe example, where is the transitional evidence? where are the fossils of this ever increasing neck length? you cant go from one species to another without this transitional evidence.

Notwithstanding the fact that evolutionary theory (denies the concept of divine intervention) defies the second law of thermodynamics.

Anyway.. im sure were boring everyone senseless and we could discuss this subject ad infinitum and still walk away the same. maybe we could move it to a forum sometime.

apologies to all

Respect

GIASI

When I said "without intelligence" above I didn't mean your intelligence I meant without intelligent design (i.e. God)

Giasi It is not black and white. I am an aetheist and a deep believer in evolution and natural selection but I am quite content for you to believe in god. My arguments against religion were not about evolution but about free sex. Lili brought up Darwin

Evolution doesn't say there is no god it just says that god is not needed to explain the development of the species and in fact it says that his/her involvement is unlikely (you just wouldn't design things the way they are). That said there is nothing to say that a god didn't create the laws of physics and chemistry that all functions operate by. He/she could then just sit back and watch it all progress.

Everyone find the concept difficult. It is incredibly hard to comprehend the level of complexity without intelligence but it can be done. I refer you again to the writings of Richard Dawkins. Very easy to understand even for a non biologist/scientist.

Demonstrating the how is not very difficult if I understand your meaning of how. Remember that every single domestic dog is descended from wolves. USing man instead of nature to choose what charateristics are transferred genetically from one generation to the next we now have chihuahuas and poodles and dachshunds.

Why is it such a big step to say that when nature "chooses" i.e. the slight increased chances of survival to an leaf eating animal with a longer neck (can reach higher branches) would mean that its genetic material DNA is more likely to be passed on to its offspring (by being able to eat leaves that most other animals can't reach it is more likely to reach sexual maturity). This cycle of favouring the animal which is more likely to survive will result in the giraffe in due course.

Anyway read the book.

Ultimately though butterfly divorce is not a stigma because of the erosion of religious values. Most social stigma is a result of the bizzare range of laws laid down by the church.

Sex without emotion is great. Sex with emotion is great too but they have their own merits.

Super7,

For some reason everyone I've known who sleeps around were very insecure men and women with poor cultural background. I that do love myself (very much by the way) would't put myself down and sleep with someone who means nothing to me.

I cannot believe that sex without emocion is fun.

Also "divorce rates". Without doubt it has to do with a loss of religious values. But not always (or so I hope cos my husband is no religious at all!)

I think divorce rates are the result of divorce no longer being an stigma. It is almost cool to be a divorcee these days! I tend to think that married couples are too quick to jump into DIvorce instead of working out the problems that will always have any one during their married life.

I have to throw my tuppenceworth into this one. Why does this evolution issue need to be so black or white. Why does it have to fall into the bushism of "if youre not with us youre against us". I believe in god AND evolution. What i have difficulty with is every living thing on this earth is decended from one single organism. I think evolution is a biologically intelligent mechanism that has been put in place to perpetuate life on this lump of rock we call home.

Religion does not dismiss evolution as a natural process, but evolutionary theory (and i stress theory) does dismiss the concept of religion.

I dont think that anyone, shown the evidence, can deny that evolution takes place to certain degrees, but i challenge any scientist to demonstrate the HOW.

Anyway, i dont wanna bore you all, this could go on for ages and im sure super7 is itching to respond :)

Respect

GIASI

Lili you seem very quick to scoff about Darwin but your comments suggest you have not read anything about his theory. I suggest you do before disregarding it out of hand. I would recommend a book by a British scientist called Richard Dawkin. It is called climbing mount improbable (or another book called the blind watchmaker)

Sex doesn't need to involve emotion and when it does so what. The key is for me the expression "if you don't buy a ticket you can't win the lottery". Basically saying if you are unwilling to get hurt ever then you can't expect to get the best rewards. Works in two ways....if you refuse to commit yourself emotionally to things for fear of getting hurt then you can't get the full benefits of satisfaction from being deeply in love etc the other way is that if you refuse to expose yourself to the chance of rejection then you will reduce your chances of fulfilling your dreams.

This is going to be long!!!!!!

Yes it is American..How did u guess!!! lol..u always make me happy B ,I feel there`s still good in the world....But i have to disagree w/ the generalization and stereotyping of the whole Arab world...The Gulf is not representative of the Arab world or for that matter the world....it`s more the Beverly Hills. Could that be made to represent the whole U.S???iDon`t think Egyptian woman are materialistic.lol

My other question was why do people set themselves up to get hurt in the end?.....u play w/ fire u get burnt.........u becpme part of aprogram like that which is filled w/"romance" and emotion and u get screwed up! Having affairs here and there ..putting yourself out there time and time again ....U WILL GET HURT......

Super7 free sex still involves emotion...or does this tie into Darwin`s thoery that we`re evolved animals.

I agree loki this is probably a means to kickstart a career ....never thought of that..lili.

Hmm Loki we basically have the same reality tv shows though. High divorce rates butterfly are the result of a gradual eroding of any belief in the insitution of marriage. People are in the west are less religious than they used to be (thank god - hee hee) so the reasons behind marriage become blurred. I for one don't really believe in it. I also disagree with your reasons behind promiscuity. I think it is just a more relaxed attitude to sex exhibiting itself. Once unburdened by the constraints of religion and the like saying this is wrong and that is right people are having more sex with more people because they want to and because it is fun.

Lilipink, I think also this type of show attracts the sort of person that is prone to "exhibitionism"... they want everyone to look at them, and/or they think that being on some tacky sensationalist TV show might kickstart an acting career or something... maybe...

Don't fall into the trap of tarring all western people with the crappy-U.S.-TV-show brush.... and also don't fall into the trap of associating all things U.S. with all other western countries... people assume that just because the country is a "western" country, that everything is just like the U.S. We all share some characteristics, but going to the U.S. for many UK, Aussie, NZ and even Canadian citizens is just like entering another world.

Hi Lilipink

No I haven't watched the show but it sounds like rubish. I bet is american.

1) The true is that No, money is not the key to all the choices we make. I may sound like romantic (well I am) but most people marry their other half because they are actually in love. Of course we live in a material world, but there are things much more important that money. Actually I find arab culture more materialistic than western!

2) I dont understand your other question, sorry. If you are adressing western attitude towards sex, then yes, sadly we have our own demons. Many men and women are very promiscous nowadays, which will explain the high number of unwanted pregancies among teenagers, STD's etc. But not everyone is like that, I tend to think that the men and women that behave like that is because they have a very low selfsteem and poor education and need a quick fix to feel better about themselves. Sad but true. It seems to be getting worse, sometimes I feel bad about it, like thinking, you know, with this promiscuous attitude, high divorce rate, the fact that families are not having children, men can marry men, women can marry women...How long do you think our western societies are going to last?

I watched some of this show "Joe Millionaire" and also the previous one.

It is just one of many other shows they produce it to get money like "House swap" and other silly shows...

I don't know what else they are going to produce, maybe "Monica Millionaire" :)

But I wont join. lol

Ayman