A human cannot be complete (intellectually) if he/she cannot fully understand himself, hence others.
The mind is a big magnificent puzzle.
Religions are only attractive to people who cannot extinguish between their emotional thoughts ?
if one cannot differ between fear,anger,love,solitude, extremism etc....
Religions uses your "imaginative" side rather the "logical and rational".
Imagination is easier than Logic.
Imagination has no grounds of facts or truth and has no limited and no definitive explanation,it is like water, preach it to some one and that one will understand it the way he wants.
logic is bound with truth and irrefutable facts and grounds.
so it is harder to swallow for the "weaker" minded.
A story can make sense only in its own imaginative zone.
QL - That is one of the way of triggering someone and making sure that she ll reply to it... :)
ya ya .....m a Bad boy I know... :p
Religion and Mom is not same...
What I am talking about is... emotional attachment... affection.... trust.. and also faith... is exactly the same in both cases..
May be more for mom.... hmm...
Ok I say it directly then... For me to respect and believe in my religion... It is not necessary to make others feel that they are on the wrong path.... and only mine is correct....
It is also like.. If I love Football.. and saying the guy who is die hard fan of Cricket or Baseball is wrong in doing so....
Or to be more precise... even within Football... All those who are not supporting Arsenal are wrong.... but I still respect them more than those who don know what love for football is...
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
sillycup: Should say I do agree with your views on atheism and so on. Same about moon split. But do you really need to resort to personal attacks on somebody if you dont like their views? I guess it would be really great if you could focus on the point in debate than calling names. Just a humble suggestion from somebody who is not used to so much animosity while debating on a topic.Takes all kinds to make the world. Whatever happened to the culture of saying that 'No matter how much I disagree with your views, I do stand for your right to express them'?
Also, kindly note that one doesnt really need to pick up on someone's spelling/grammar mistakes to make oneself and one's arguments look smarter. Quite a few people here have not been 'blessed' enough to have English as their first language, you know.
(Do feel free to point out errors in the above passage. Nothing like a free grammar class from an enlightened being who doesnt hail from some 'shit-ridden-village'.)
A religion is not a mom. You don't get attached to it per se. That's why when ppl grow up they reflect and evaluate their beliefs. Then they would adhere to it, move to a different religion that seems more appropriate or reject it altogether.
Adey for me... When the religious Do's and Don'ts originated they all for sure had scientific base and reason
But in due course of time.... some or the other reasons... the reasons behind them were not noted.. and thus we find it difficult to accept...
All what is revealed by science.... slowly and steadily .. is revealing reasons for those religious Do's and Don'ts..
One thing I find really funny is.. One accepts Scientific proofs when they support the beliefs in religion of self..
and not when it contradicts or proves others religious actions correct :)... But thats how Faith works... :)
either there is a God or it is a necessity (I say this as a unbiased in this discussion).... as All civilazations who didn interact had there own images or concepts of super power....
Why ??? Do you have answer to these questions..
I do ask many questions regarding faith.. but as they are answered.. the faith grows stronger... thats how it wrks for me......
I don seek to fight/debate.. but I would like to have a discussion and your point of view on the questions I have...
Like Why All the civilazations had a God ???
How can all have a spiritual experience ....
I know todays God is Money.. and only tht matters.. but lets keep it to faith and spirituality . and not conclude so soon :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Verisi: "Since you don't know, why judge others who think they do?"
Yes I dont know. Abt people who 'think' they know, what they think that they know doesnt stand up to the most fleeting of scrutinies in my opinion.
Btw, you think you know, right? You are not sure you know? Am sure you know the difference.
Ashwin: Lemme explain this...When I say I dont need to know, what I mean is I would rather say 'I dont know' than assign an imaginary power to it and say 'I know and this is it'. Clear?
and you missed your own point that you were trying to make through Karma Yoga in attempt to cram other chapters. Read the context again.
Sorry guys, for the late reply. Wish I had a job that would give me more 'internet' time. :)
most of those scientific facts that they stake claim to me are very basic schoolboy science... no rocket science there... its not relativity or sub molecular physics... they are unlikely to be disproved later on... for sure not all of science as we know it is going to change...
No I do not have any sensibilities about the church - I think the Vatican/catholic church has a lot to answer for, a very nasty institution.
Besides only half the christian population of the world is catholic.
Well the bible has remained the same for a very long time, translations and linguistic style has changed but it's basically the same for the last 400 yrs beyond that I have not got too much detailed knowledge. But anyway I should have said that science is constantly changing with the emphasis on constantly.
As for your assertion that it is the Truth and cannot be wrong then I guess that avenue is closed, with respect your answer to squaring the circle is to ignore, don't think about it and go blind. Again that is fine if that is how you would deal with it, I just could not do that.
That came out a bit rude, please don't take it that way it's just that I couldn't quite put it a better way.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
For all your devout atheism Adey, I've always noticed that your Christian sensibilities are quick to take offense... I think my Church losing ground statement has riled you a bit... but anyway give it some thought...
As for science not standing still... neither did the Bible until recently... just give it some time...
I thank you for not taking an example and yup we would have end up arguing till the cows came home... but well yeah thank you for sparing me that...
But to answer your question... As a Muslim, my answer is that it is The Truth and it cannot be wrong... so your question is a loaded question... WHAT IF it were wrong...
But from a layman perspective... the retro-fits... are exactly that... just fits... translations... so if the translations prove to be false, can't blame the Quran for it... people keep seeing the Quran in a new light... it is open to interpretation although the text remains static...
Personally I don't read too much in to the science in Quran concept... its a bit sensationalist... but I don't mind people who do it and people who feel inspired... neither do I mind people who don't feel inspired
About extra terrestrial... I am curious to know what atheists have to say... I agree with what you had to say on the topic, its very logical...
The huge progress in scientific knowledge and process started late 17th/early 18th century. Sure there was scientific enquiry before that but as a discipline that is really the start of the modern world. Brought about whole revolutions in social, political and engineering ways of life.
It has it's parallels with your great early Islamic era. Not that I am comparing it to religion.
Care to have a stab at answering any of my previous points? No tricks involved, just wanted a open discussion.
:)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
you being a man of science... which is only a few 100 years old?! your perspective tends to be narrow...
Do bear in mind that man has been around for 1000s of years... whats 1400 years compared to 30000?
I guess you are compelled to write that off... but the proof is in the pudding... so what if its from the 7th century, its around ain't it? And in its original form...
Its good enuff in fact for you... to want to be here right... can't be THAT bad right?
I am stuck in the sticks with no transport and unlikely to bev able to get car fixed until after Eid as I have to take it to Doha to get it fixed, so I am :-((
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
Well yes is was just speculation, as is your view of the future, so there is no point counter arguing as we don't know and we will never know because both of us will be long gone. Both of us were just expressing possible scenarios.
I must take issue with you seeing some aspects as arrogant though - it's just a point of view, neutral as far as emotion, and depicts a trend not everything happening the same or on the same timescale.
And regarding the development of science; now you referred to it as the bible of atheists, that is not an accurate analogy as science has no beliefs and is always developing - it does not stand still, no dogma.
Now we could argue till the cows come home about science and the Qu'ran etc and we would get nowhere as we trade blows. However as the Qu'ran is supposedly unchanged and the perfect word of the creator of the universe,
may I ask you one question?
If science were to prove something about some aspect of the nature of life, the universe etc that could not be refuted, proved beyond all doubt - however it utterly contradicted something said in the Qu'ran, how would you be able to square the circle?
Now I know that the Qu'ran is not a science manual and the modern trend of some muslims using it to retro fit new scientific discoveries is a very dangerous game which is very likely to back fire on those that use it thus.
I won't give a specific example but let's say something along the lines of the creation of human life. Now lets not debate what science and the Qu'ran says about this, as I say it would just be a blow by blow fight with no side gaining anything.
I just would be interested to hear about what your thought process would be.
Why did you want to know about life outside this planet? What did you deduce from my answers?
:)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
I need to add this point... I am writing it separately cos this is Islam biased...
According to Islam, there were several Prophets before Prophet Muhammad PBUH... this includes Moses (Musa) and Jesus (Issa)... there is no reference as to how many prophets there were, the Quran refers to 25... I've heard Islamic scholars say that there have been as many as 10000...
There is a narration of Prophet Muhammad PBUH that when he was summoned to the heavens for his audience with Allah, he got to witness Prophets along with their Qaum... Of the three main religions had great number of followers but there were other Prophets who had just handfuls... and sometimes none at all...
Anyway, the point being that according to Islamic faith, before Islam, God had intended religions to be either region bound or time bound... There might have been Prophets for a tribe or a village or a society... but that was put to an end with Islam. With the advent of Islam, Allah decreed Islam to be the perfect religion for ALL TIME and ALL MANKIND
In my opinion, this is very interesting, because up until that time, the world was not 'globalized' and there was the need for these pockets of religion
But since then, there has been all these technological breakthroughs and human progress which spawned the need for a global religion, just the way the Quran and Prophet Muhammad taught based on the knowledge bestowed to him by Allah
You might see that as a coincidence... I see it as providence :-)
you have pulled up the atheists bible... science...
there is no point in me telling what Islam has to say about this cos you don't believe in God... but i promise you... its so interesting...
Anyway, even you would agree all that you have said is speculation?
you would agree that all you just said may not transpire entirely, may not transpire in the way you put it or it may not transpire at all...
These are just... what you think is 'likely' to happen...
First off, I'd like to write off your religions die theory...
Although it is true that religions have died in the past... that is because there was a time and age when there were several insulated societies or civilizations which disappeared and with them, we lost their culture and religious beliefs... this would happen due to wars, famines, disease, natural disaster etc...
However, the human race have reached a state where such events are less likely to transpire... we can thank communications, transport, technology, the internet for it...
The human race today has become one civilization... the major religions as we know today complements this universal civilization and therefore are less likely to disappear the way you put it because these religions are much more global than any religion in the history of the human race as we know it... We are stuck with these religions :-)
Next up.... I have noticed that a lot of people in the West talk about how religion is dying in their societies and how it is likely to die in the other parts of the world in much the same manner
Very very arrogant notion...
The 'Church' may have lost its relevance in the West... But what if i were to say that its the Church's fault... the Church tried to hold back the development of science and in the process lost out on its credibility. People got to see first hand how it was the Vatican that controlled Christianity rather than any divine entity...
So you really need to reconsider your statement that religion has lost favor... its actually the Church that has lost favor
Islam (just taking a random example... heh heh heh... I can't talk on behalf of other religions) has never been in disagreement with the development of science... it has never stood in its way... although some parts of it have been manipulated to serve human interests... the Muslim perception of Islam is still that it is a divine form of guidance... so it is less likely to go out of favor as man develops.
Now with regards to man getting over the hangup of religion... I don't think its going to happen. Man needs religion as much as he needs entertainment, spirituality or sports... its a part of the way we are built... religion feeds our emotions...
Humans cannot get over the fact that when they die, that would be it... We yearn for some meaning beyond this realm of worldly existence... a second chance... an eternal life... Its the fear of the unknown, As long as humans are mortal, humans will believe in an after life... only religion can give us that...
But having said all of this... even if religion WERE to be lost... it still doesn't prove anything... actually the Quran talks of a time when the believers would be a handful... but even if that were to happen... it doesn't mean religion was wrong... so really as far as we are considered, this being so far out in the future... all of it is a moot point...
I think the 'coming around' is a generational thing, over many generations. Very few who have 'caught' a religion at a young age, no matter if they understand the rationalism that makes them doubt it, are able to cast it off during their lifetimes. They may reject the dogma and practices of the religion but still cannot shake entirely the idea of a creator.
The religious meme is very strong but it is slowly being unravelled. I understand the strength of religious feeling but truth is truth and it cannot be suppressed just because it contradicts thousands of years of religious thought.
All the previous religions throughout time thought they were true and all have gone the way of all others before them - the current crop of religions are no different and in time will fade, to be replaced by truths that can be verified. Science and rationalism will have come of age, remember it's only been around for about 350 yrs(very young when compared to the major religions). It may take many hundreds of years, in the future the religions won't be missed, just as we don't miss the Norse gods etc. Undoubtedly there will still be a small section of humanity that will hold true to the old religions, but they will be very small indeed. It won't effect anyone alive today as by then you can expect to be in paradise with your creator if that is what you believe. Your god or gods can take care of the situation as they see fit, He certainly does not depend on you or any other human for survival, for he is either real for all time with his worshipers in paradise or he is dependent on mankind's belief for his own survival - and if that is the case then he couldn't have been a god in the first place. So believers, you have nothing to lose if religion dies out.
God may decide to end all life if few people believe in him anymore, but then again that will be good for believers because they are always looking forward to the 'End Times', 'Rapture' or 'Day of Judgement' - as I say, believers have nothing to lose.
Wow! That was a stream of conciseness!! Don't know what came over me!
The exception is the USA which is very polorised between a minority of some of the most brilliant rationalists and a majority of fundementalist christians.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
Well certainly in what is termed 'the first world' this is undoubtedly happening, even the current Pope has said that evolution is true.
Religion in the west is dying, there has been a big uptake of spirituality but the religion of the ancient texts is just seen as a product of its time.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
"that would be the closest you could get to proving the nonexistence of God..."
It's almost there! You might like to do some research on 'Abiogenesis'
Your questions:
I have an Art/Creative background and was never that much interested in the Sciences.
My atheism stems from a philosophical thought process but I have become more and more interested in Biology, Cosmology, Geology and the Earth Sciences - these have just reinforced my atheism.
Actually the ONLY thing that labels an atheist is the non belief in god, in my case because of the previous paragraph. And as I said earlier, to be accurate the term is a 99.99999999% agnostic.
Extraterestrial life: No one can say for sure.
The probabilities suggest it does or has existed somewhere in the vast universe, so probably.
Intelligent? Possibly, depends what you class as intelligent.
Ever visited earth? Almost certainly not, but again it cant be absolutely dismissed.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
That's why I mentioned earlier... 'the fact God created life cannot be scientifically proven'...
I think if life can be created purely from matter that are not derived from other living matter... that would be atheist's version of a revelation... that would be the closest you could get to proving the nonexistence of God...
I didn't even know the other Faiths had a capital F :-)
I don't agree with what you have to say about the arrogance... that might be one of the reasons...
but mostly my observation is that atheists think they are being more realistic and true to science... and that gradually the believers will 'come around'...
I am not telling any atheist what they should believe... I am just saying... they have as much scientific basis as a person who believes in God... period...
I see what you are getting at... You just don't want atheists to be labeled by what they DON'T believe in... is that right?
Anyway, I have a question for you... Do you consider yourself a man of science, is science what encouraged you to become an atheist? Do you believe in extra terrestrial life... intelligent or otherwise?
You can't prove a negative - you cant 'prove' there are no such things as tooth fairies, easter bunnies or Father Christmas - by your logic you must believe these exist to. :-))
The burden of proof rests on finding evidence for god not on his non existence.
There is no evidence that by eating rice it enables you to travel through time, diguised as a pencil, being able to win all the golf tournaments ever held!
You don't say "Ah, you cant prove you cant, so I will be prepared to believe it"!
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
I think the arrogance comes out when those who are religious insist on telling atheists what it is we believe.
As I said, atheism is not a Faith, with a capital 'F'. I can only have faith in that which has some evidence, not have faith in a 'nothingness'
What you believe is fine, it's just not something I have. So therefore not a Faith.
If I told you that you were not a real muslim because you lied when taking the Shahada because you are uncertain that Zeus, Odin, Shiva, Pagan tree spirits etc do not exist, you only have faith that they do not (ie There is no god but Allah, but I am willing to entertain the idea that there may be other gods because I can't be sure)- then you would quite rightly think I was telling you what YOU believe!
Now I am not saying that, just giving an example based on your idea of what 'faith' is.,
:)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
'Love' for country is an emotion and so it can be 'true'.
A god is an entity, it is either 'true' or 'not true' - I would need evidence of the entity to to prove its existence.
Same with the 'wife', easy to find evidence - god?; if you have evidence for this then you are the first and should publish this evidence so that the whole world knows - if your evidence is sound then I would have to change my view - but so far I have seen none by anyone ever, hence my stand.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
All kinds of people shall follow it... single trait cannot define all... as Adey said... different intensity.. it exists in all faiths... :) even in non believers :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Yep Adey... exactly... that was my point... we both have our faiths... just that you believe in one God less than I do :-)) LOL...
But on a serious note, I have found some atheists very arrogant in their belief... and dismissing people of religion as stupid or backward... this i don't agree with
That is why I insisting on calling atheism too a faith because that too has only as much scientific basis as a faith that believes in the existence of a God...
Adey - really How does Believing in existence of every God worshiped and every Prophet followed makes me a non-believer...
I believe what I follow is truth....
I don say.. Only what I follow is truth.... thats something I cannot accept....
May be you haven't traveled much..
When you see someone who loves his nation as much as you do yours.... someone likes his language as much as you do yours... you know it is the love that matters.. not what loved...
Every Kid thinks he has got best parents in the world..
Every Parents think theirs is the best kid in the world...
they don have to prove other kids/parents wrong to prove themselves correct... Do they ??
nothing offends don worry... the rubbing makes one shine better :)
B T W I chose the example of wife.. as it strikes and resembled your stand to going "One God Further" :)
Wife exists ??? And so does the God (Back to square one :) )
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
So what happens in countries in the days before jesus and mohammad. There is no such thing as religion except Paganism and these who follows Hinduism and buddishism. Christianity and Islam are all imported religion, propagated and seeded amoung people so as to make believe that there exist god. Ironicall, there are no immediate contacts or visual, only a convincing sermons and here we goes today. For the new generations, they are already born into the religion of their immediate parents. Some may, due to the above, becomes atheism. We cannot blame them for lack of religious evidence that they have as the basis for rejection.
Actually I would have to be strictly honest and say I was an agnostic who was 99.999999999% sure there are no gods. So near to Atheism that it makes little difference - hence I prefer to use the label 'atheist'
One can only have faith in a positive not a negative. I am sure you would correct me if I said that you ONLY had FAITH that there is no Zeus, and that you could not be certain.
You are an atheist in terms of all the other gods throughtout human history, I just go one god further.
In those terms you also only have faith that these gods don't exist. So your faith and mine are the same.
Nes't pas?
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
I can't be stealing your words... I don't read your comments unless they are addressed specifically to me or someone else says something interesting about them... they are too loooooong... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... :-p
Adey - Hmm.. thanks... true.. so like any religion... even non-believers have a Belief and they are sure it is correct and follow it...
To me it is irrelevant that their beliefs are in total contrast or not at all similar to the So called Believers.....
If to the rebellious to the present religious system... and in journey to be resistant to this system... it helps them be a better man than they are... its nice....
The only worry is.. it is restricted to individual...
It cannot be passed from generation to generation...
Or can it be ?
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
In fact I have seen numerous surveys which point out that the atheists/agnostics/non-religious form the 3rd biggest grouping in the world.
Christianity is the biggest at around 2billion followed by Islam at around 1.3 billion then atheists/agnostics/non-religious at around 1billion.
That is about 15% of the worlds population and growing.
Obviously this is not spread out evenly just as religions are not, but atheists come from all cultures whereas religions tend to spring from certain cultural norms.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
LOL, dude, you think a question mark there would have made any difference?
Also, what I said is I am fine with accepting that there are things beyond my knowledge at the present point in time, without assigning imaginary powers to be responsible for it. I did not say I am against having logical answers. Both are totally different things.
"I am seeking the answers... you are not... thats the only difference... " How well do you know me to make that judgement? Btw, where do you seek your 'rational' answers? In religion?
You are confusing whatever has been done by early scientists with the religion and culture of the times. Would you associate the works of Pasteur, Newton or Einstein to their religion? Well, thats something I wouldnt do. Both has to be seen in isolation, IMHO.
Again, if you are talking about the Karma yoga thing , shall I suggest a reading of Chapter 3 from Bhagavat Gita? While I agree with you that its derivation nor its practice is a work of faith alone, I have to say your previous posts kinda ontradict the essence of what has been said in Karma yoga. Do read it.
I ask questions and seek for the answers. rational ones...
Religion is more than Do's and Don'ts in life....
It is summation of Wisdom of all wise men who have shared there spiritual experiences... truths they have seen.....
Ayurved, Yoga, Karma Yog, Astrology (Jotish Vidhya) all these cannot be wrk of mere Faith.. lot of research and developed has happened to come to these sciences...
This was all developed systematically...
There are rational and convincing answers to all questions....
I am seeking the answers... you are not... thats the only difference...
Secondly - "Secondly they are not in love with anything" There was a Question mark after this ... " ???????? " which I thought of.. but didn Type :(
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
veri: Saying that faith does not provide answers does not mean I have the answers.
Difference is I dont need answers. I am fine with accepting mysteries as mysteries without assigning powers to be responsible for them.
Misinterpretation Ashwin? Read your own post 10.44 am and the line,"Secondly they are not in love with anything".
Also, hating the crime and being against the root cause/ principle behind it, is different from hating the people who are used to carry it out. The actors keep changing but the basic script is the same. and what I am against is the script, not the actors. The script that has been dictating these acts for eons.
I say.. love to God.. or religion is like loving/caring for anything else...
when you are attached to something.. you care for it...
and you try to preserve as much possible... religion.. like anything else.. too included...
Killing is a act.. justification is given by the motive behind it... Then very much like terrorists are hated...
All Army/Navy and air force men too be hated equally ???
Is that what you mean ????
Those who are trying to protect the civilians by killing Terrorists are criminals ???
Motive behind the action cannot be separated and judge action only.....
And that is why.. I feel.. terrorists are not bad people... they are religious.. they are fighting for faith... to them.. their faith is in danger.. thts why they act this way..
Wrong are those who are misleading them....
To counter attack this.. we need a bigger army who can spread the true messages of religion...
___________________________________________
Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
"Secondly they are not in love with anything": Quite a statement, Ashwin! Do you mean to say we aren't humans?Mind explaining how you reached this 'profound' conclusion? Not being attached to a religion means they dont love anything?
Btw, every killer has a justification, but that doesnt make it any less of a crime. Look at every unrest in every part of the world. and then say religion has got nothing to do with any of it. If you can say so, i shall quit this topic. (Talking beyond that point would be a futile attempt, i suppose)
Faith in a contractor, faith in superpower it falls into same example of dumping all the unknowns together to be answered by faith.
Intuition, running the existence...thts what I meant by unknowns. Nobody has really 'explained' it by faith either. they just attribute it to certain imaginary forces and give their own names. Do you believe faith really provides 'satisfactory' answers to them? I dont think so, but like I said, if it floats your boat, you are welcome.
Winn - Thats Faith and religion mistaken big time....
When I say Faith that the building wont fall...
Did it say faith in Super power ???
It is faith in the builder... constructor.. that he has done a good job.....
It is Faith on the Scientist who says Oxygen is a element ans not a compound... not super power....
I can't collecting proofs for all these things.. thats why you trust on each other.. trust .. faith that you are doing your part of the job to run this world correctly...
till now it was all rational...
Super power.. lets talk that out now..
Existence of super power is Ill-developed and imaginary notion.. as you suggest....
Honestly .. even I was a die hard follower of this belief...
It was amusing to think.. so much in the name of religion.. on one assumption that there is God listening.... :) I really used to love it..'
But running this Existence .... is impossible to justify with mere Coincidence ???????
Don think so...
How do you justify intuition ???
And biggest question which justified me his existence was.... We are blessed with 5 senses.. we perceive our world with these five sense..
whtver we can see, touch, feel, smell exists....
What if we had another sense organ... we would have perceived this world differently..
SO the world I know.. I see.. is not what it is... it is a part what I m unable to sense....
Bats can see in night... dogs can't see color (Again Faith on book where I read this :) ) for them world is different....
We all don see the exactly same rainbow... all get unique angel and unique view to it....
WILL is belief that "It is possible".....
Faith works cause faith comes from Heart... or the emotional part of the brain...
Logic comes from MIND.. mind when thinks rationally.... interprets data of what has happened....
Faith.. heart... originates from Heart.. it seeks and sees what you want ..... not what you think you can have......
A 75 KG less experienced Boxer cannot think logically he can defeat a 80 KG better trained one......
He jus wants to win.... trusts his coach when he says Son you can do it.. and it happens.. Thats power of faith...
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Ashwin: "But majority of the people are on the right path thanks to religion..."
You mean, fear of hell and lure of heaven keeps em in line? Doesnt say much about their moral fibre, does it?
Now, lets have a look at the bad side. The violence, bloodshed and paranoia side. How much of it is contributed by atheists? and how much by so-called believers and in teh name of their faiths?
"cant spend so much of time to check everything in life...." Exactly Ashwin, thats what you are doing. You are dumping all of life's unanswered questions and mysteries in one box and assigning an imaginary and ill-developed notion of a super power as the key to that box.(Thats what I believe anyway. If it works for you, you are more than welcome to it.)
Which you wouldnt need to do if you were fine with accepting unknowns and uncertainities. I also drive over bridges and walk into highrises, but i dont NEED faith to do that. Would suggest a try ;) Believe me, even if there was a god, he must have surely forsaken the construction sites in this part of the world long back. Been there, can tell you that!If Newton had satisfied himself with an explanation that the apple was destined to fall by a higher power, it would have really been a waste of such a great mind, is what I think.
Personally,I Wouldnt mix will with faith. Will is belief in yourself . Faith is belief in a superpower.
Winn - People See Atheists are those who are not doing anything wrong in the name of religion...
But majority of the people are on the right path thanks to religion...
There are few who misuse it.. but not in majority for sure....
Call it fear of God.. or Love of God... or a Seeking to live upto the unlimited potential of human body and decoding the funny way of how our brain functions and dictates us.....
Its religion.. which takes you beyond or above the misery in this world...
Religion not Science dares to answer the questions which Logic is unable to...
And if you notice..Everything in this world is Faith...
I still Trust or have a faith that.. Earth is not Flat but Circle..... I have never seen it circular....
I was told it is... I was shown the pics...
I trust the person/evidences....which can be manipulated not necessary to be true....
And many more..
It took us an Year in school to understand why Apple fell on Newtons head...
cant spend so much of time to check everything in life....
I have to believe..
That the building is made of good Steel and wont fall..
I have to believe that the car I drive is not ill-engineered to save money.....
I believe what we breath in is Oxygen and given out is CO2.... Never seen this...
I still believe Oxygen is a Element.. not a Compound...
tomorrow if a Scientist gets up and says no it is mixture of Two elements.. I ll have to believe him then...
B T W... Never seen a Lamp.. A candle... A Pic.. giving hope/strength to a disheartened/defeated/needy person without being powered by faith...
Will of a Man is the strongest material on this planet...
Cannot happen with logical reasoning .... Faith is only ingredient that does it...
Whether one accepts or not... Faith is a Foundation needed for all....
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
In my personal experience , atheists are able to offer a better perspective on beliefs followed by various faiths and their cultural underpinnings. They are neutral. Majority of them do not go around preaching atheism from pulpits or any kind of forums for that matter. Just check out QL. How many posts have been started advocating/pushing atheism compared to those advocating other faiths? Again, it is my personal view that atheists are people for whom it would be easier to give equal justice to every religion without favoritism towards any.
For eg, I cannot imagine a devout follower of any religion, teaching other religions without implying that they are not 'true' enough or sanctioned by the big guy.
Verisi: A dictat passed by an overbearing principal and a law, a system followed by a country: Are they comparable? (Anyways, the school i studied in India was a public school with a hindu name and they had 2 hours lunch break on Fridays.Used to luv the xtra one hour of football ;) ) It remains that religous tolerance/ acdceptance of other (minority)faiths and legal sanction within the constitutional frame work for practising the same, is never gonna be a strong point in any nation with a muslim majority, I guess.
and believe me, you could hav put the principal in hot soup if a suit was filed against him for denial of your right to follow ur faith. (ofcourse you were too young to think of that angle)Dont see that happening here.
Our level of thinking is not the same at all even though we are of the same being. Take the case of a dog who are taught to bark from birth, and so he barks the whole of his life. He will resist change and if provoked will bites. Just how are we being taught from birth, firstly we honour our mother and father no matter how wrong they are. Same like religion, what we are taught to believe from the day we are borm, would be glorify and defend till death. That explains the division between Islam, christianilty, buddish, Hindus etc.
God exist!!! He created everything. HE is the creator of time, matter and space. These are transient entities. Transient entities cannot come into existence by themselves.
tells you that Islam is the true path...............an awful lot of other people tell you it is not.
I always thought that once a Muslim always a Muslim. You cannot convert even if you wanted to. Sounds to me that a lot (i.e Muslims) cannot question anything about their religion or they would be frowned upon or disowned.
It seems you are owned.
I respect any religion but please don't ever say that yours is the ONLY one. If it where surely by now your almighty God/Prophet would have converted us all.
As it is, there are an awful lot of religions out there that have more 'members' whose faith is just as strong if not stronger.
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The path to true happiness is paved with gin and tonics :-))))))
This (Qur'ân) is a Message for mankind (and a clear proof against them), in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is the only One Ilâh (God - Allâh) - (none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh),— and that men of understanding may take heed.
adey said "... I am not bashing the Islamic Zakat system, it does a lot of good, I'm just saying one has to give for the right reasons to claim credit."
Yes, should be right. It is always the true intent that matters most.
Sun, thats what most people have the perception on. But I would strongly say spiritual part of it rather the political and financial otherwise it won't serve any purpose. Maybe as some have said, opportunity would comes easy for being part of the team.
In my observation many born Muslims who are very devout usually became so after a certain point in their adult life. They often have a story to tell, a great experience or hardship which changed their outlook of the world... something that caused them to rediscover their religion and pursue it with more passion... some of them talk of an earlier stage of their lives as 'jahiliyya' :-)
Then there are those who build on their level of devotion instilled from childhood, what they had been taught...
I find the prior more interesting to talk to... I can relate to them more... now if i would have my epiphany...
It's the first time that I hear the term 'pantheism'. No offense meant but as a believer I think Satan is getting very creative :D
Raison: "I sometimes dally with the hope that my ajer (good deeds) for the profound privaledge of being Muslim is similar to that of the fortunate ones who have embraced Islam of their free will."
I agree with you on this. Even those born into Islam do choose it at some point and feel thankful for it, whereas others will just carry it as a mere identity.
Schooling has nothing to do with indoctrinating Islam or any religon for that matter.
I went to school in England and while growing up there I was cast in the schools pantomime A rendition of the story of Jesus (The Prophet Essa pbuh).
I even sang in the school choir! The governess my parents employed to help raise us, bless her, was a devout Christian and spent a great deal of time with us, in fact just as much as our parents did.
I recall at my constant nagging, she reservedly took me to church (I doubt my parents knew) because I wanted to taste that cookie they place in your mouth lol
(all I recall was that it tasted like a bland craker that lost it's crunch BC :)
My parents, although devout practicing muslims never force fed us our religon and in all honesty I can say that I when I began exploring it, I did so of my own accord, with none of this hidden push many of you speak of.
Why?
Because I have found that Islam is the most logical religon/way of life that calls & caters to every level of my existance as it does to those who surround me.
I cannot describe it in better terms, However I'm sure the practicing muslims will relate to what I've described.
I am extreemly thankful that I wasn't subjected to outer influences during my childhood and I sometimes dally with the hope that my ajer (good deeds) for the profound privaledge of being Muslim is similar to that of the fortunate ones who have embraced Islam of their free will, those of whom were raised with no idea or influences whatsoever and they chose to revert to Islam.
Because the deeds for them is doubled than that whom was formally trained into Islam :)
I only hope that those of you who 'search' find the right sources for the knowledge/discussion you seek.
Back to the point, although I was born into it but i think that my situation lends itself as a perfect case study that ought to proove that Islam is NOT instilled in us by society or by education. It is the perfect Religon!
PM's "It's easier for them to accept the idea that people follow the "wrong" religion, than have none at all"
I Beg to differ because contrary to general belief that Islam is force fed to us Muslims, because it is NOT.
We too go through times of doubt and reflection, but this only encourages our Islamic freedom to ASK. Subsequently resulting with a stronger bond & belief in God existance that has come to us unadulterated through Islam.
Simply put; Islam is a religon that encourages questioning because it is the one source where we find the answers.
Did you think it is by coincedence that very few leave Islam and an increasing number of people (mainly those of the scripture) revert to Islam.
It's a simple continum of the same message that was conveyed through all the Prophets.
A message that has remained unchanged by politics for over 1400 years.
It is also why the subject of religon is greatly disscussed as can be seen on QL, there is an innate part of the human psyche and survival instict to :-
A Worship
B everyone wants to know their outcome after death.
Salax pointed this out above.
With no intention of drawing your attention to another thread, I just want to share a short doccumentary of the life of the Prophet Mohammed recently posted.
I feel after watching this, many questions maybe answered.
That part we were never allowed to do, and thankfully the schools we attended focused on real education as opposed to the current Education City reform in Qatar that emphasizes on :-
S O C I A L I Z E or Die LOL
I hear they go to great lengths marketing this important rite of passage by renaming it "LEAVERS DINNER" when the year before the name "PROM" didn't go down to well with the last of the mohican Qatari's
Oh well, you know how it is nowadays, if you don't mix you have no culture or breeding therefore you are ignorant uncivilized arabs!
lets see how they kick off the 'breeding' as we CHARGE like raging bulls to adopt the sticky problems the West is trying to rid it's self of :D
Interesting article named
Why we should sterilise teenage girls ... temporarily at least
I don't think its a big issue either... I am beginning to get the feeling that you may have a few blind spots wrt Islam
I get your point... currying favour with God as opposed to only desiring good for another human being... yeah well we are supposed to desire the blessings of Allah, this is central to our good deeds being accepted by Allah
If that makes a Muslim any less in your eyes... well basically he shouldn't care, he ought to care more about what Allah thinks...
When I said that no one should come to know... I mean other people... obviously Allah comes to know... that's the whole point...
I agree people do good deeds regardless of religion... yup... sure... just human good will...
In a way one is advertising their level of Zakat because if one believes in an all knowing god then obviously he knows.
Be aware that I am not saying these are the motives for all religious people. I am sure alot of people would do it even if it was not a religious requirement.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
I'd urge you to refrain from baiting the fundamentalists... They don't celebrate the prophet's birthday, they have loudly and repeatedly declared the celebration of it to be an "innovation", "neo-paganism", "neo-christianism"... Some muslims celebrate birthdays in the family too. It's a cultural thing anyways, if you do or don't, makes little next to no difference. Some people celebrate anything, and some celebrate almost nothing :)
if people follow a religion or they don't. Being religious does not automatically make a good person. I know some very nice caring, sharing, compasionate people who are athiests.
As long as your moral compass is set in the right direction from a very early age then religion is not needed.
If Muslims are not 'allowed' to celebrate birthdays, then why is the Prophets 'birthday' acknowledged? Is it not a date on most calenders?
I think a lot of times people make things up as they go along.
______________________________________________
The path to true happiness is paved with gin and tonics :-))))))
I still don't agree with your definition of 'moral act'...
I think the issue stems from the fact that a Muslims act of piety is different from the moral act of an atheist
A Muslim who does a pious duty... one that is compulsory like zakaat (charity during holy month of Ramadhan specifically for the poor, a certain percentage of one's savings set as a pillar of Islam) or non-compulsory like Sadaqah (non-compulsory and up to the person's discretion) does so in diety to Allah and to have his blessings... he desires goodwill for mankind in this world... and he desires Allah's blessings in the after life...
It is also interesting to note that Islam encourages people not to call out their good deeds because people may tend to say give money in charity as a means of getting recognition... this is not encouraged in Islam... you shall not call out your good deeds...
If you think this is selfish in any manner and would not constitute a moral act or makes it any less than an act of charity with the sole intention of goodwill for mankind... so be it... but these are what a Muslim desires from a good deed...
I am afraid you are quite wrong on this matter, as eaglemanuel has explained.
You may find it difficult to comprehend such a point of view but that does not entitle you (and I say this with all due respect) to tell others what they believe. I think you would be mightly offended if I were to say muslims don't exist because.....................etc.
To get back to the topic; in my daily life I have never mentioned the fact of being an atheist because it is not something that affects any aspect of my life, it's no big deal - thus no discrimination.
In fact there is only one muslim colleague that knows, and only then that was because she thought I was a christian, I had to tell her I wasn't. She asked me a direct question about what I believed and I wasn't going to lie to her. It has made not one jot of difference to our relationship.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
QatariLady said "You're right salax.. Atheists don't exist. They do believe in God but give Him a different name. They call Him Nature!"
Sorry, QatariLady, that would be a Pantheist / Pantheism - the Universe (Nature) and God are the same. An Atheist - (anti-theist) just does not believe God exists
"sadaka" and "zakat" are not the same. Charitable work or deeds are perceived as noble by God, and if you have faith you are compelled by it to pay zakat, so it is not on your own morals I agree, the religion teaches good morals and encourages charitable work other than payment of Zakat. Zakat is basically "Islamic welfare". You pay into social security don't ya? Well Islam dictates that there can be no compulsion in religion, so while you are compelled to pay it if you have faith, no one is allowed to enforce the collection of it. The logic may seem complex but if you apply your mind to it, you will see the rationality is sound ;)
As for atheists, while Islam does not treat them as favourably as christians and jews, people in general don't care unless you're Dick Dawkins or something. They won't go to great lengths to proselytize to you, they may try a few times because it is perceived as a good deed to a fellow human being, but if they perceive you're offended by their attempts they will back off.
Apostasy is a completely different matter. I don't agree that it is the greatest sin as whitefeather said (the greatest sin is, quite logically, suicide), and I disagree with a lot of the capital punishment that has been doled out for it throughout history, as I have not seen any basis for it in the Qur'an itself. I would gladly consider any quotations offered on the matter, so those of you that know better do not hold out on a brudda :)
The choice is theirs. Its a religious law anyway and as discussed in previous threads, comes the moral part of it on the percentage channelled to the goods and the bad.
which are not in effect "moral obligations" since they are not legally enforced. Like right now, I am fasting but there are no cameras in place to enforce that rule. If I wanted to sneak and eat I could. But I don't because I believe I am morally obligated to fast. And Islam was my CHOICE as a religion. It was not forced upon me. So what I do, I do because I think it is morally correct.
britexpat said "...R.E should be compulsory at school. The aspects of all major religions, including Atheism should be taught. Parents should not have an opt out clause."
Wholly agree with you on that. Aspects of ALL main religions or beliefs should be taught, including Atheism and people should have freedom to make their own informed decision and choose. Anything coerced or one sided is always counter-productive. As one seeks, one will find the truth, not necessarily immediately, but eventually.
Strict enforcement of Ramadan working hours by the Labour Department this year has benefited most labourers in Qatar.
In the previous years, as most companies felt that following the labour law regarding Ramadan working hours was optional, labourers continued to work their usual 10-12 hour long shifts that start at 6am.
The labour law in Qatar calls for a six-hour work day during Ramadan for all – Muslims and non-Muslims alike – in addition to two hours of permitted overtime.
“The shift still starts at 6am but ends at 12pm. Some of our non-Muslim colleagues agreed to work overtime since the company is eager to end the project on time,” Akram, an Egyptian labourer working at a building site in Doha, said.
“But it’s still a long day for us. We remain awake after the Suhour (ends at 4am) since the bus collects us at 5am from the camp in Rayyan,” he added.
Another low-income worker, a non-Muslim, at a site near the Villagio, said he and his colleagues are required to work only six hours as their supervisor is a Muslim.
According to Article 73 of the Qatari Labour Law Number (14) of 2002: “The maximum ordinary working hours ... (during the) month of Ramadan shall be 36 hours per week at the rate of six hours per day.
The time spent by the worker in transportation to and from the place of work and residence of the worker shall not form part of the working hours.”
On Ramadan, the Law further states: “The working hours shall include an interval or more for prayer, rest and taking of meals which interval or intervals shall not be less than one hour and shall not be more than three hours. The said intervals shall not be taken into consideration in calculating the working hours in fixing the rest interval but the worker shall not work more than five consecutive hours.”
For juveniles under the age of 16, Article 90 of the Law calls for a work day of not more than four hours during Ramadan.
However, there are companies, especially the cleaning firms which fail to observe the law as some cleaners in offices were found to be working far more than the stipulated schedule.
Senior officials at the Ministry of Labour have recently reiterated that the law is there for all to follow, failing which there will be consequences.
In an interview with Gulf Times last month, Labour Inspection Department manager Mohamed Saeed al-Naimi had said the inspection teams of the Department will continue to check whether companies are flouting the timings during Ramadan.
Muslims but then a friend told me that it applies to everyone. They said that in the Qatar Foundation ALL employees are supposed to have shorter hours and she used the reasoning that surely QF is following the laws of the country.
Does anybody know for a fact that this is not the case? Is it true that non-Muslims have to work more hours than Muslims during Ramadan in Qatar?
Neither do I see any harm in children 'learning' about other religions... my concern is on children internalizing cultural practices alien to their religious and cultural backgrounds...
it gets tricky here cos religion and culture in the Islamic perspective are very closely related... please put this in context with the question that Adey asked me about why i wouldn't send children to a multi-cultural school and my initial reply to him...
Religion tells us we MUST be good, MUST pray, MUST help the needy... by your definition... all these acts would cease to be be moral acts... I don't agree with your definition of a moral act...
It makes every good deed an atheist does a moral act and only some that a believer does a moral act :-)
Your concerns regarding culture protection are valid.. This is the job of the parents. I see no harm in children learning about other religions and the parents ensuring that the children adhere to the norms of their religion.
Now whether it be Islam or any other faith, if you are commanded by religious rules it ceases to be an individual act of morality.
One MUST pay taxes in many countries - no one deems themselves moraly soothed because they pay the unavoidable tax, even when it goes to those less fortunate.
This is not bashing, just pointing out that Zakat is not a moral act if it is enforced.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
In Muslim world, being a non believer or non muslim definitely leads to disadvantages.Like in work place your chances of promotion will be affected. During Ramadan, nonmuslims are asked to do inhumane no of extra hours without any extra payment. So you are free to be a nonbeliever or non muslim in Qatar at your own disadvantage.However, there is no point in cribbing, as we choose to come and work here.
I should also add that i am more bothered about this culture protection between the ages of around 7 up until 16...
i believe those are the years when a person is shaped...
Eventually the person has to live in a multi-cultural society and has to learn to fit in, but one would hope that by 17, enough character building has taken place to enable one to understand and appreciate one's own culture...
I had a rude culture shock at 18 when i joined a multi-culture institute... it took a year to get used to it... but by 19, I knew how to hold my own without sticking out like a sore thumb... i know people who got so tangled in the culture shock and the new found freedom that they got completely lost and confused... yeah well...
white feather,i read what u posted earlier too..just that i dont really see that kind of tolerance for propogation of another faith other than Islam in countries that are Islamic states(we're talking bout qatar rules here)..which is what the topic was about.though it was initially bout atheism..what you posted is nice..to be frank i dont see that is what is being followed..
and in your last post you basically admitted what I am saying: that Qatar is based on an Islamic state but has other influences as well. Thus we have to be careful in any statement that implies everything done in Qatar follows Islamic guidelines.
j3375 I'm going to repost since you don't read well.
"j3375, all Muslims should act like the Prophet (ASWS). And when he had invaded a countery/city he would offer Islam to the people of that country/city if they were to embrace it alhamdulilah if not they would protect them as they were their own and they'd live with the Muslims in harmony. And God tell's Mohammad (SAWS) that he (the prophet (SAWS)) should do nothing to the kufar (the non believers ie. the atheists.) As he Allah, will take care of them.
I also agree with PM. Birdie I'm afraid you might be boss eyed, since you're seeing everything the other way round. In Islam you must donate money, MUST. And you must help the poor and the weak and the homeless, etc.
Pm..Im not saying that Qatar is a perfect Islamic State..but a model based mainly on it..
thats why all the non tolerance to other faiths/beliefs being propogated (getting back to the org topic)..u may see it like im Islam bashing,but im just pointing out the fact that thats how it works under Islamic law..is there any difficulty understanding that?..Mentioning Islam was relevant to the topic we were discussing..aswe were discussing the tolerance to atheism here,which led to the laws regarding other beliefs..
Exactly... that's why i often say that I rate Qatar as one of the top places in the world where I'd like to live... its cos i liked the experience i had being brought up here, culturally from a Muslim perspective... and i'd rather my children are brought up here...
But again, things have changed a lot in the last ten years... internet, cable TV... changes the equation big time...
In a perfect Islamic state the leaser would be selected from among the Muslims by consensus based on who would have the most knowledge and best ability to lead. Qatar is a monarchy and thus doesn't follow Islam in every matter of governance. Monarchies are NOT an Islamic convention.
PM,the legal system.. civil courts(non shariah courts) u mention r for trying people who are not muslim,but what gets somebody to those civil courts could be breaking a rule thats considered unislamic..
I've been there n i know..i dont lack understanding,esp on these matters.
I suppose also it depends on the kind of society one lives in - what the cultural norms are. I mean, it would be easier to be sure that your child would fit into a mainly muslim culture, say like here in Qatar. But say, for instance, you lived in Australia or Canada it would be much more difficult to avoid 'ghettoizing' yourselfs. Just a thought.
I suspect you might say that you would not bring up children in such societies.
span style="font-style: italic">"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
I know many, many people of different faiths who are very generous with their time and money to help the less fortunate. I don't think it is an atheist vs. believer issue. It just depends on the person.
veris..Not my place to lecture you on parenting,but give ur kid a chance at making those later decisions on his own(kissing/having girlfriends,etc)..going by what you write here,i'm sure ull do your best to inculcate ur faith in him..the reason he got obsessed with bdays(being a kid) is bcos u dont have it at home..so i dont think its the case of a culture being imposed on you,but the lack of acceptance for it that actually led to the obsession you r describing here..
One thing is certain..the more rules you set,the more likely kids are to break them(not out of bad character,but simply out of rebellion.youth rebel..)fact of life..
Qatar's governance isn't based ONLY in Islam. Look at the legal system: there are both Islamic courts (sharia) and civil courts.
Look Italy is basically a Catholic country in that many Catholic principles are applied there and the majority of Italians are Catholic. But Italy is not the same as strict Catholic state. Only the Vatican meets that standard and they are a separate country.
Most of the atheists are having more values in life. they do give more donations to poor people. They are more friendly with others.
These qualities are there in believer also, i agree. but not to the level of atheists. They do beleive in something, so they became atheists.. But beleivers does not have to beleive in any ideology,, they became mechanically believers wthout any logc, ideology...
In the United States and Canada, a prom, short for promenade, is a formal (black tie) dance, or gathering of high school students, held at the end of senior year.
This is a predicament that affects most Muslim parents
I would love to send my son to a multi faith school and I want him to have a healthy understanding of other faiths as well and have a chance to interact with people of all faiths...
However... multi-faith schools at least here in Qatar and in the West tend to have practices which don't sit very well in Islamic faith...
For instance... my wife and I never celebrate birthdays... not because we have anything against it... its just not something we did growing up... its not a part of Muslim culture... we don't gift each other or wish each other during anniversaries... we do it for Eid of course... and then randomly buy gifts, we both like surprises...
But after my three year old started going to playschool, he has completely got obsessed with birthdays... he keeps talking about cutting cakes, getting gifts, party caps... Of course we don't have an issue in inviting over his friends to have a good time... we do take him with his friends to the beach... or to the park but we feel the birthday culture were imposed on us...
Now I KNOW this is the easier challenge... we have tougher challenges ahead... girl friends, dating, relationships, parties, prom, kissing... these are all things which are normal in multi-faith schools... even borderline permissible with other faiths such as Christians and Hindus... but unfortunately... not so okay with Muslims
Hence... I would probably not mind putting my son in multi-faith schools in junior classes... but eventually... I would need to shift him...
veris..its unfortunate that you came across ppl who werent capable of handling the reponsibility to nurturing thought in kids the right way..
i had a teacher who once mentioned he's an atheist..when teaching 9th grade kids..though he actually taught us Hindi since the 6th std..
He was the best school teacher i came across..and the most respected of the lot we had in school..not bcos of his lack of belief (mentioned just once when asked),but bcos his classes were simply a joy to attend..
PM i dont see how governence based on Islamic law doesnt represent Islam..as in the case of Qatar..cos its a model thats put in place..whether the model is followed/not is human nature..
Just a question, why not send your child to a multi faith school to learn about living in tolerence with all walks of life and get his Islamic education at home and in thr mosque?
I am genuinely interested in your reasons.
Thank you.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
commitment to religious freedom in public institutions. We also have private schools of different faiths (both multi-faith secular and singular faith-based); and they are exempted from many of these laws. However, since taxes go to providing free education to all we want to make sure that no religious discrimination or indoctrination takes place.
I'm a big advocate of public schools in principle (as long as they maintain high standards) because I prefer that faith be handled in the home.
well I don't dismiss the fact that people of faith cannot be very good religious education teachers, there are many many excellent ones. I would just say that atheists have a natural advantage to teach about religion without bias. Even one of these should know when talking about atheism not to promote this as the 'right' position.
Sounds like your teacher was making an ill timed personal opinion in a jokey form. Hey, but we all make mistakes.
:)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
He was teaching social studies... and about the origin of Christianity I think... after saying that Jesus used to be a shepherd... and then before passing on to something else... he just smiled and said something to the effect that many shepherds became prophets because they had lot of time to waste while the sheep are grazing... I was older than 7... probably lot older... more like 11 or 12... I think of him as a bad teacher because he was a bad teacher, not because he was an atheist... but just to prove my point that atheists tend to have more flash points with believers than between believers of different faiths... the existence of God or nonexistence is much more basic than the differences between faiths...
Anyway... I disagree with you... I don't think atheists would make better teachers for comparative religion than anyone else... it has more to do with the person's professionalism...
I went to American public schools and universities. In the States we have strong laws about religious bias and discrimination. I am not saying it doesn't EVER happen, but most people would fear losing their jobs for crossing that boundary.
I don't ever start promoting Atheism - I only put an alternative point of view when anyone posts what they think is a religious certitude (of whatever faith) in order to tell someone what is right and what they should do.
People come to Atheism of their own accord, I really don't care what anyone believes as long as that belief does not curtail another's freedom due to some dogma.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
In my 21 years as a student, I have come across SEVERAL professors who inadvertently said things which were religiously biased... some of them more often than others...
they may not have intended to use the classroom for conversions, but the bias shows...
I cant comment on your previous teacher as I don't know all the facts, if you remember it that way and he did indeed try and indoctrinate you into that view then he was wrong - however that might have been a counter argument designed to generate discussion and it's something you have remembered - I don't know I wasn't there. :)
Whether religious or not the teachers job is to remain objective.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
but the facts as we know them. Anyone who is professional will not be using the classroom for conversion. In all my years in school and university (a total of 22 years) I have only ONCE had a teacher use the classroom for his political bully pulpit. I do think it's possible to monitor what is being taught and how it is being taught, so that religious history can be part of the curriculum.
I remember being taught by a teacher at the ripe old age of 7 right here in Qatar that many prophets were shepherds cos they had a lot of time at hand while the sheeps are grazing to dream up 'things'
The said teacher is now heading a pyramid company in Dubai which has been banned in at least ten countries...
My view is that atheists have a very condescending manner of speaking when it comes to religion and God...
I'd rather the topic were taught by a believer than an atheist...
i didn't get stuck with the principal... i decided against joining the school and i came back to Qatar... I was here with my dad while my mom, sis and younger brother were in India...
Thats not the case in this part of the world where Islam as ones religion is almost mandatory. There could be a systematic degradation or plural punishment for those who does not do so by the authority.
During the Kuwait war in early 90s when i was in a school in Qatar... my family was considering shifting me to India and I appeared at a Hindu school back in India... As they were explaining things to me... they said they have class on Fridays... I asked them how I could attend my prayers... I was told that,"You don't need to go in search of God, God can come in search of you"... by the principal no less... :-)
what is in your heart and your intention from Allah.
First you attacked my post of 1:27. You implied that I said it was bad that some Muslims I know can't relate to atheists as well as they can people who they believe are following the "wrong" religion". There was nothing in my post that suggested that.
Then you attacked my post of 1:43 and 1:49 (presumably) by saying that I was relating whitefeather's personal statement with all Muslims. Again, there was no implication of that in my post and I didn't even MENTION Muslims.
So reread what I wrote and and your responding attacks. And please desist from jumping to the first and worst conclusion about my posts in order to justify bad behavior.
j3375 actually we were taught the history of all the religions prevalent in India in school, we were taught how the religions originated and the good teachings of every religion. They did it very objectively too without taking side of any religion.
j3375, all Muslims should act like the Prophet (ASWS). And when he had invaded a countery/city he would offer Islam to the people of that country/city if they were to embrace it alhamdulilah if not they would protect them as they were their own and they'd live with the Muslims in harmony. And God tell's Mohammad (SAWS) that he (the prophet (SAWS)) should do nothing to the kufar (the non believers ie. the atheists.) As he Allah, will take care of them.
veris..the communists(based on atheism) in kerala stand for elections..so dont compare the freedom of speech thats exercised in india with the protests that broke out whn it was tried to be put into the school curriculum..both are diffrernt issues..like i mentioned earlier,i dont think religion/atheism need to be taught in school,excpt like what md suggested'history o'of religions could/should be..
veris I can't see any temple in Qatar, How is a Hindu supposed to practice his religion and a sizable number of expats coming from India are Hindus. What should they do to practice their religion?
That is what I said, however one has to explore the main tennents and practices of each faith to decern simularities and differences - the teacher must NEVER give value judgements or lead the students to believe one is true as oppossed to the others.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
agree that the history of religions should/could be taught..
Pm..there is no tolerance in Islam generally to anybody propogating any other religion other than Islam,so why the hypocrisy in your stance on atheism..if there was freedom of religion guaranteed here,then why are people who practise other faiths sent back home when they try n propogate it?..
I don't have any factual proof that anyone was discriminated against because they were an atheist. Do you? And if you do then send me the information that I can research and I will change my statement.
I do believe there is a difference between professing atheism (or another religion) in Qatar and proselytizing.
MD if that were done then you'd probably see more converts to Islam as when you study the big three (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) You'll see how they are the same but there is something special about Islam I'm not going to go into details as I don't want to offend anyone.
PM..r u suggesting i try n test the tolerance level of the qatari govt to Atheism..i think not..cos whether it s written in the constitution or whatever,An islamic country would never tolerate it being advocated openly..esp by an expat..i'm not talking bout somebody just mentioning that they are atheist,like here on QL..
"{I have never seen anything to suggest that they would face harassment by the government and believe that religious freedom is guaranteed in the draft constitution."
PM, i would love to give an example from Qatar. But 'Public forum' :(
You should look deeper into the government's agendas. And most people won't actually care, if a Qatari does it's then there will be problems as he is born a Muslim and you can't leave the religion as it is the greatest sin. Family wise I'm sure they wouldn't let that person announce anything as it would give "the family" a bad rep.
atheism isnt a religion..just a personal belief bout the existence of god to some people..like the saying goes'an athiest is a person with no invisible means of support'..
britexp..religion shouldnt be taught in schools..its a personal choice..what shold be taught is tolerance for other religions than your own..
I think its... interesting... actually there was a lot of controversy in my part of India over a chapter which introduced the idea of atheism to students...
In other words, an ex-pat professing atheism might be different from a Qatari doing the same thing. And even then, it would most likely be dependent on that Qatar's family and friends. I have never seen anything to suggest that they would face harassment by the government and believe that religious freedom is guaranteed in the draft constitution.
When I talked about being judged I didn't mean normal people, but the governments of course. And no if you proclaim your an atheist in Qatar you will not have any problems.
white feather..its very obvious that if one proclaims/propogates publicly that he's an athiest in qatar,he will have problems..dont see that happening in the US or even in India..thats freedom of speech..whther people judge you for your opinions shudnt b an issue,unless ur a hypocrite n just want people to only agree with you..not disagree..
Since when is Atheism a religion? I thought most Atheists were Atheists to be "individuals". Anyways Ver. I'm not your "typical" Muslim, for a while I lost my religion and didn't pray, nothing. Now I do everything in Islam and then some as I realized The Hour is near. Even if it were after a whole 80 years of living it is still near.
Comparitive religion is taught in Religious Education classes in the UK. The teacher can be of any religion or none - they only have to have an interest in the subject and have studied.
The aim is not to indoctrinate students into any faith and no judgement values are allowed - think of it like teaching the history of religions and ideas.
If a student wants to pursue a religion further then they would seek instruction from their parents, church, mosque, temple etc.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
J3375 freedom of speech is a lie go do some research on it. Even in the USA it's all just a lie to get people to expose their true opinions so they can be judged by them when they think they will not. Anyways let's get back on topic.
The assumption stems from a lack of access to education; that is being tackled by the aforementioned judge(see full article below). I am amazed that this not already in place throughout a secular country such as Canada.
During such lessons I am sure any good educational programme would have to mention the counter arguement ie athiesm.
Being aware of differing positions and their main propositions in no way validates them - how can one argue for ones point of view if one is unaware of the the challenges to it?
"Parents say new course threatens Christian faith"
MONTREAL -- Christian parents who objected to their children being taught about other religions in a mandatory new Quebec school course have suffered a serious setback with a ruling this week that the teachings do not infringe their religious freedoms.
Quebec Superior Court Justice Jean-Guy Dubois dismissed a bid by parents in Drummondville, Que., who said the course on ethics and religious culture introduced across the province last year was undermining their efforts to instill Christian faith in their children.
"In light of all the evidence presented, the court does not see how the ... course limits the plaintiff's freedom of conscience and of religion for the children when it provides an overall presentation of various religions without obliging the children to adhere to them," Judge Dubois wrote.
The course was controversial even before instruction began last September. During the year there were protest marches in some cities, and about 1,700 parents asked that their children be exempted from attending the class. All such requests were refused.
The course's introduction was the final step in the secularization of Quebec schooling that began with a 1997 constitutional amendment replacing denominational school boards with linguistic ones.
As of last year, parents no longer had the right to choose between courses in Catholic, Protestant or moral instruction. The new curriculum covers a broad range of world religions, with particular emphasis on Quebec's religious heritage -- Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism and aboriginal spirituality. It is taught from Grade 1 through Grade 11.
The course's scope was too broad for the parents in the Drummondville case, who cannot be named because their two minor children are involved. During the trial, the children's mother testified that she did not see why her 7-year-old son needs to learn about Islam when he is still forming his own Catholic spirituality. "It's very confusing," she said.
In his ruling, Judge Dubois cited a Catholic theologian who testified that religious instruction is primarily the responsibility of parents, not schools. He added that there is a commitment on the part of the Catholic church to understand other religions.
The Quebec government, which intervened in the case in support of the Des Chênes school board, argued that the course was objective and in no way limited parents' ability to pass their religious beliefs on to their children. Teaching children about other religions is a way to promote "equality, respect and tolerance in the Quebec school system," it said.
Sébastien Lebel-Grenier, a law professor at Université de Sherbrooke, said he is not surprised that the new course survived a challenge under the Charter of Rights.
"What parents were demanding was the right to ignorance, the right to protect their children from being exposed to the existence of other religions," he said. "This right to ignorance is certainly not protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Freedom of religion does not protect the right not to know what is going on in our universe."
He said the course is aimed not at instilling religious values but at trying "to explain to these children the diversity in which we now live in Quebec."
Richard Décarie, spokesman for a coalition opposed to the course, said the decision is a major disappointment. He believes there are grounds for an appeal, but he is not sure the parents involved can afford additional legal expenses. He said they have already spent close to $100,000 fighting the case.
"The course shouldn't be compulsory, because it changes completely how parents keep their moral authority over the education of their children," said Mr. Décarie, of the Coalition for Freedom in Education. "We're not talking about mathematics or French or English here. We're talking about something that involves the essence of the culture of people."
Two other challenges of the course are before the courts, with decisions expected this fall. Parents in Granby went to court after their children were suspended from school for failing to attend ethics and religious culture class. Montreal's Loyola High School, a private Jesuit school, has challenged the course, arguing that it obliges the school to put all religions on equal footing. The school says it already teaches world religions to its students.'
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
OK, no one will discriminate against you if you're an atheist I doubt anyone would care. Just don't go offending anyones religions and you'll be fine. Don't worry most people are tolerant here.
white feather..there very much is something called freedom of speech..mayb not here In qatar..just that the degree to which this freedom is tolerated/exercised depends on where you live in todays world..
You are already assuming that the believer has weak arguments...
Let me demonstrate by twisting your question...
It should be easy to accept someone who says he believes in god. This is pretty basic tolerance. If a believer asks an atheist: What's the difference between a god and no God?...and the atheist's answer is vague and/or nonsensical, then it's onbvious the atheist doesn't have much clue what he's really talking about, so why should he get angry/frustrated with the believer for exposing his weak arguments?
It should be easy to accept someone who says he does not believe in god. This is pretty basic tolerance. If an atheist asks a believer: What's the difference between your god and an imaginary god?...and the believer's answer is vague and/or nonsensical, then it's onbvious the believer doesn't have much clue what he's really talking about, so why should he get angry/frustrated with the atheist for exposing his weak arguments?
In Islam, it is considered less offensive to do something that is perceived to be wrong provided it is done secretly.
Because when its done in public, it tends to corrupt other people... it may seem hypocritical to some... but its practical nonetheless... if you deliberately set a wrong example to people, be ready to be made an example of...
My guess is that if a Qatari is an atheist and he goes about his life the way he pleases, he may face only marginal issues
However, if he wants to make a press statement declaring his atheism, he would probably end up in trouble...
Adey you need to keep your wrong thoughts to yourself. If a Qatari announces he's an atheist and he'll never change his mind. Believe me he'd lose all connections to family + friends.
So if a Qatari comes out and tells everyone he doesn't believe in god he will face no discrimination in employment or in civic life generally?
It seems to me that freedom from religion has only recently be established in most of the Western world and in China.
In Europe I think religion is either ignored or is considered an embarrassment for most people. Nobody in Europe seems to take religion seriously when it comes to matters of social and/or political importance.
In the Muslim world however it seems to be far more difficult for people to escape from or ignore religion in their lives.
but I have been told on several occasions by Muslims that they have a hard time accepting anyone would actually believe that God doesn't exist. It's easier for them to accept the idea that people follow the "wrong" religion, than have none at all.
Shouldn't be a problem I believe. Everyone is matured enough to decide whats best for himself. And as long as the atheist dosen't engage, critize, provoke and condemmed Islam, there would be peace of existence between both believers.
I read a lot about different religions in these forums but I would like to read more about the status of atheism and of atheists in Qatar and in the Muslim world in general.
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A human cannot be complete (intellectually) if he/she cannot fully understand himself, hence others.
The mind is a big magnificent puzzle.
Religions are only attractive to people who cannot extinguish between their emotional thoughts ?
if one cannot differ between fear,anger,love,solitude, extremism etc....
Religions uses your "imaginative" side rather the "logical and rational".
Imagination is easier than Logic.
Imagination has no grounds of facts or truth and has no limited and no definitive explanation,it is like water, preach it to some one and that one will understand it the way he wants.
logic is bound with truth and irrefutable facts and grounds.
so it is harder to swallow for the "weaker" minded.
A story can make sense only in its own imaginative zone.
Cheers.
QL - That is one of the way of triggering someone and making sure that she ll reply to it... :)
ya ya .....m a Bad boy I know... :p
Religion and Mom is not same...
What I am talking about is... emotional attachment... affection.... trust.. and also faith... is exactly the same in both cases..
May be more for mom.... hmm...
Ok I say it directly then... For me to respect and believe in my religion... It is not necessary to make others feel that they are on the wrong path.... and only mine is correct....
It is also like.. If I love Football.. and saying the guy who is die hard fan of Cricket or Baseball is wrong in doing so....
Or to be more precise... even within Football... All those who are not supporting Arsenal are wrong.... but I still respect them more than those who don know what love for football is...
___________________________________________
Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
sillycup: Should say I do agree with your views on atheism and so on. Same about moon split. But do you really need to resort to personal attacks on somebody if you dont like their views? I guess it would be really great if you could focus on the point in debate than calling names. Just a humble suggestion from somebody who is not used to so much animosity while debating on a topic.Takes all kinds to make the world. Whatever happened to the culture of saying that 'No matter how much I disagree with your views, I do stand for your right to express them'?
Also, kindly note that one doesnt really need to pick up on someone's spelling/grammar mistakes to make oneself and one's arguments look smarter. Quite a few people here have not been 'blessed' enough to have English as their first language, you know.
(Do feel free to point out errors in the above passage. Nothing like a free grammar class from an enlightened being who doesnt hail from some 'shit-ridden-village'.)
And thanx for accusing me of avoiding logical discussions!! >:-(
Ashwin..
A religion is not a mom. You don't get attached to it per se. That's why when ppl grow up they reflect and evaluate their beliefs. Then they would adhere to it, move to a different religion that seems more appropriate or reject it altogether.
Adey for me... When the religious Do's and Don'ts originated they all for sure had scientific base and reason
But in due course of time.... some or the other reasons... the reasons behind them were not noted.. and thus we find it difficult to accept...
All what is revealed by science.... slowly and steadily .. is revealing reasons for those religious Do's and Don'ts..
One thing I find really funny is.. One accepts Scientific proofs when they support the beliefs in religion of self..
and not when it contradicts or proves others religious actions correct :)... But thats how Faith works... :)
either there is a God or it is a necessity (I say this as a unbiased in this discussion).... as All civilazations who didn interact had there own images or concepts of super power....
Why ??? Do you have answer to these questions..
I do ask many questions regarding faith.. but as they are answered.. the faith grows stronger... thats how it wrks for me......
I don seek to fight/debate.. but I would like to have a discussion and your point of view on the questions I have...
Like Why All the civilazations had a God ???
How can all have a spiritual experience ....
I know todays God is Money.. and only tht matters.. but lets keep it to faith and spirituality . and not conclude so soon :)
___________________________________________
Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Winn - I second you on the last line...
And also repenting for the delay in re-installing internet at my residence..... :(
Missed lot of fun last evening.....
Winn - I read.. what you want to emphasis do let me know...
Qatary Lady - Ya tht was a Brilliant comment from Adey....
But help me know one thing - Every Son says My Mom is the best one in the World ...
HOw many of them are wrong in saying So ???
And m I condradicting my self when I don mind others around me think their mom is best in the world ???
Does that mean I don love my mom?
As far as I know.. whenever the discussion goes logical.. you don respond... but still expecting a reply here... :)
You Fers... Versi and Adey... you guyz have texted so much.... wont be able to respond and comment on all...
But still.. even if I don agree.. doesn mean I m not enjoying this :)
___________________________________________
Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Khalid: You talking abt the 'superpower'? :-p
Verisi: "Since you don't know, why judge others who think they do?"
Yes I dont know. Abt people who 'think' they know, what they think that they know doesnt stand up to the most fleeting of scrutinies in my opinion.
Btw, you think you know, right? You are not sure you know? Am sure you know the difference.
Ashwin: Lemme explain this...When I say I dont need to know, what I mean is I would rather say 'I dont know' than assign an imaginary power to it and say 'I know and this is it'. Clear?
and you missed your own point that you were trying to make through Karma Yoga in attempt to cram other chapters. Read the context again.
Sorry guys, for the late reply. Wish I had a job that would give me more 'internet' time. :)
Master of all is master of none
Adey..
"If you believe in everything, you believe in nothing.."
That's brilliant! :D
most of those scientific facts that they stake claim to me are very basic schoolboy science... no rocket science there... its not relativity or sub molecular physics... they are unlikely to be disproved later on... for sure not all of science as we know it is going to change...
I answered it as a Muslim... as I am entitled to my beliefs...
and I have answered the question from a layman perspective as well... what I have to say is...
You can't hold the Quran accountable for the way that someone translates it...
i.e. there is no question of squaring the circle when it was not a circle to begin with...
I see you have now responded.
No I do not have any sensibilities about the church - I think the Vatican/catholic church has a lot to answer for, a very nasty institution.
Besides only half the christian population of the world is catholic.
Well the bible has remained the same for a very long time, translations and linguistic style has changed but it's basically the same for the last 400 yrs beyond that I have not got too much detailed knowledge. But anyway I should have said that science is constantly changing with the emphasis on constantly.
As for your assertion that it is the Truth and cannot be wrong then I guess that avenue is closed, with respect your answer to squaring the circle is to ignore, don't think about it and go blind. Again that is fine if that is how you would deal with it, I just could not do that.
That came out a bit rude, please don't take it that way it's just that I couldn't quite put it a better way.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I am doing three times at the same time so am a bit slow...
The bit you didn't get, lets just agree to disagree about the 7th century being too early or just right...
For all your devout atheism Adey, I've always noticed that your Christian sensibilities are quick to take offense... I think my Church losing ground statement has riled you a bit... but anyway give it some thought...
As for science not standing still... neither did the Bible until recently... just give it some time...
I thank you for not taking an example and yup we would have end up arguing till the cows came home... but well yeah thank you for sparing me that...
But to answer your question... As a Muslim, my answer is that it is The Truth and it cannot be wrong... so your question is a loaded question... WHAT IF it were wrong...
But from a layman perspective... the retro-fits... are exactly that... just fits... translations... so if the translations prove to be false, can't blame the Quran for it... people keep seeing the Quran in a new light... it is open to interpretation although the text remains static...
Personally I don't read too much in to the science in Quran concept... its a bit sensationalist... but I don't mind people who do it and people who feel inspired... neither do I mind people who don't feel inspired
About extra terrestrial... I am curious to know what atheists have to say... I agree with what you had to say on the topic, its very logical...
Didn't quite get your last post.
The huge progress in scientific knowledge and process started late 17th/early 18th century. Sure there was scientific enquiry before that but as a discipline that is really the start of the modern world. Brought about whole revolutions in social, political and engineering ways of life.
It has it's parallels with your great early Islamic era. Not that I am comparing it to religion.
Care to have a stab at answering any of my previous points? No tricks involved, just wanted a open discussion.
:)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
you would be very lucky to be an honorary Bedouin :D but being an aetheist Bedouin could be tricky lol
-------------------------------------
you being a man of science... which is only a few 100 years old?! your perspective tends to be narrow...
Do bear in mind that man has been around for 1000s of years... whats 1400 years compared to 30000?
I guess you are compelled to write that off... but the proof is in the pudding... so what if its from the 7th century, its around ain't it? And in its original form...
Its good enuff in fact for you... to want to be here right... can't be THAT bad right?
Poor Adey...
Diamond... gift the man one of your Bentleys ;-)
Doha this time of year is all shopping and Iftar tents. Besides I've been 'out here' for so long I think I've gone a bit Bedioun! Big city scary!
LOL :D
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
That won't do at all...get a friend to help!!! You can't be out there all that time without coming into the big city.
-------------------------------------
I am stuck in the sticks with no transport and unlikely to bev able to get car fixed until after Eid as I have to take it to Doha to get it fixed, so I am :-((
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Q. What's the difference between your god and an imaginary god?
A. There is no difference.
Adey, my favourite aethist! Long time no read...how have you been? How're you surviving out in the sticks? :D
-------------------------------------
I don't even see a coincidence I'm afraid. Or any correlation.
I see a very long gap between the 7th Century and anything like thpeople of the world knowing much about themselves or how the world works.
Allah should have waited much much longer to introduce a 'universal' religion, so sorry, your point there cuts no ice with me.
:)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Well yes is was just speculation, as is your view of the future, so there is no point counter arguing as we don't know and we will never know because both of us will be long gone. Both of us were just expressing possible scenarios.
I must take issue with you seeing some aspects as arrogant though - it's just a point of view, neutral as far as emotion, and depicts a trend not everything happening the same or on the same timescale.
And regarding the development of science; now you referred to it as the bible of atheists, that is not an accurate analogy as science has no beliefs and is always developing - it does not stand still, no dogma.
Now we could argue till the cows come home about science and the Qu'ran etc and we would get nowhere as we trade blows. However as the Qu'ran is supposedly unchanged and the perfect word of the creator of the universe,
may I ask you one question?
If science were to prove something about some aspect of the nature of life, the universe etc that could not be refuted, proved beyond all doubt - however it utterly contradicted something said in the Qu'ran, how would you be able to square the circle?
Now I know that the Qu'ran is not a science manual and the modern trend of some muslims using it to retro fit new scientific discoveries is a very dangerous game which is very likely to back fire on those that use it thus.
I won't give a specific example but let's say something along the lines of the creation of human life. Now lets not debate what science and the Qu'ran says about this, as I say it would just be a blow by blow fight with no side gaining anything.
I just would be interested to hear about what your thought process would be.
Why did you want to know about life outside this planet? What did you deduce from my answers?
:)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I need to add this point... I am writing it separately cos this is Islam biased...
According to Islam, there were several Prophets before Prophet Muhammad PBUH... this includes Moses (Musa) and Jesus (Issa)... there is no reference as to how many prophets there were, the Quran refers to 25... I've heard Islamic scholars say that there have been as many as 10000...
There is a narration of Prophet Muhammad PBUH that when he was summoned to the heavens for his audience with Allah, he got to witness Prophets along with their Qaum... Of the three main religions had great number of followers but there were other Prophets who had just handfuls... and sometimes none at all...
Anyway, the point being that according to Islamic faith, before Islam, God had intended religions to be either region bound or time bound... There might have been Prophets for a tribe or a village or a society... but that was put to an end with Islam. With the advent of Islam, Allah decreed Islam to be the perfect religion for ALL TIME and ALL MANKIND
In my opinion, this is very interesting, because up until that time, the world was not 'globalized' and there was the need for these pockets of religion
But since then, there has been all these technological breakthroughs and human progress which spawned the need for a global religion, just the way the Quran and Prophet Muhammad taught based on the knowledge bestowed to him by Allah
You might see that as a coincidence... I see it as providence :-)
we are making progress in this discussion
you have pulled up the atheists bible... science...
there is no point in me telling what Islam has to say about this cos you don't believe in God... but i promise you... its so interesting...
Anyway, even you would agree all that you have said is speculation?
you would agree that all you just said may not transpire entirely, may not transpire in the way you put it or it may not transpire at all...
These are just... what you think is 'likely' to happen...
First off, I'd like to write off your religions die theory...
Although it is true that religions have died in the past... that is because there was a time and age when there were several insulated societies or civilizations which disappeared and with them, we lost their culture and religious beliefs... this would happen due to wars, famines, disease, natural disaster etc...
However, the human race have reached a state where such events are less likely to transpire... we can thank communications, transport, technology, the internet for it...
The human race today has become one civilization... the major religions as we know today complements this universal civilization and therefore are less likely to disappear the way you put it because these religions are much more global than any religion in the history of the human race as we know it... We are stuck with these religions :-)
Next up.... I have noticed that a lot of people in the West talk about how religion is dying in their societies and how it is likely to die in the other parts of the world in much the same manner
Very very arrogant notion...
The 'Church' may have lost its relevance in the West... But what if i were to say that its the Church's fault... the Church tried to hold back the development of science and in the process lost out on its credibility. People got to see first hand how it was the Vatican that controlled Christianity rather than any divine entity...
So you really need to reconsider your statement that religion has lost favor... its actually the Church that has lost favor
Islam (just taking a random example... heh heh heh... I can't talk on behalf of other religions) has never been in disagreement with the development of science... it has never stood in its way... although some parts of it have been manipulated to serve human interests... the Muslim perception of Islam is still that it is a divine form of guidance... so it is less likely to go out of favor as man develops.
Now with regards to man getting over the hangup of religion... I don't think its going to happen. Man needs religion as much as he needs entertainment, spirituality or sports... its a part of the way we are built... religion feeds our emotions...
Humans cannot get over the fact that when they die, that would be it... We yearn for some meaning beyond this realm of worldly existence... a second chance... an eternal life... Its the fear of the unknown, As long as humans are mortal, humans will believe in an after life... only religion can give us that...
But having said all of this... even if religion WERE to be lost... it still doesn't prove anything... actually the Quran talks of a time when the believers would be a handful... but even if that were to happen... it doesn't mean religion was wrong... so really as far as we are considered, this being so far out in the future... all of it is a moot point...
I think the 'coming around' is a generational thing, over many generations. Very few who have 'caught' a religion at a young age, no matter if they understand the rationalism that makes them doubt it, are able to cast it off during their lifetimes. They may reject the dogma and practices of the religion but still cannot shake entirely the idea of a creator.
The religious meme is very strong but it is slowly being unravelled. I understand the strength of religious feeling but truth is truth and it cannot be suppressed just because it contradicts thousands of years of religious thought.
All the previous religions throughout time thought they were true and all have gone the way of all others before them - the current crop of religions are no different and in time will fade, to be replaced by truths that can be verified. Science and rationalism will have come of age, remember it's only been around for about 350 yrs(very young when compared to the major religions). It may take many hundreds of years, in the future the religions won't be missed, just as we don't miss the Norse gods etc. Undoubtedly there will still be a small section of humanity that will hold true to the old religions, but they will be very small indeed. It won't effect anyone alive today as by then you can expect to be in paradise with your creator if that is what you believe. Your god or gods can take care of the situation as they see fit, He certainly does not depend on you or any other human for survival, for he is either real for all time with his worshipers in paradise or he is dependent on mankind's belief for his own survival - and if that is the case then he couldn't have been a god in the first place. So believers, you have nothing to lose if religion dies out.
God may decide to end all life if few people believe in him anymore, but then again that will be good for believers because they are always looking forward to the 'End Times', 'Rapture' or 'Day of Judgement' - as I say, believers have nothing to lose.
Wow! That was a stream of conciseness!! Don't know what came over me!
The exception is the USA which is very polorised between a minority of some of the most brilliant rationalists and a majority of fundementalist christians.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
"gradually the believers will 'come around'..."
Well certainly in what is termed 'the first world' this is undoubtedly happening, even the current Pope has said that evolution is true.
Religion in the west is dying, there has been a big uptake of spirituality but the religion of the ancient texts is just seen as a product of its time.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
"that would be the closest you could get to proving the nonexistence of God..."
It's almost there! You might like to do some research on 'Abiogenesis'
Your questions:
I have an Art/Creative background and was never that much interested in the Sciences.
My atheism stems from a philosophical thought process but I have become more and more interested in Biology, Cosmology, Geology and the Earth Sciences - these have just reinforced my atheism.
Actually the ONLY thing that labels an atheist is the non belief in god, in my case because of the previous paragraph. And as I said earlier, to be accurate the term is a 99.99999999% agnostic.
Extraterestrial life: No one can say for sure.
The probabilities suggest it does or has existed somewhere in the vast universe, so probably.
Intelligent? Possibly, depends what you class as intelligent.
Ever visited earth? Almost certainly not, but again it cant be absolutely dismissed.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
That's why I mentioned earlier... 'the fact God created life cannot be scientifically proven'...
I think if life can be created purely from matter that are not derived from other living matter... that would be atheist's version of a revelation... that would be the closest you could get to proving the nonexistence of God...
it is not a capital 'F'
I didn't even know the other Faiths had a capital F :-)
I don't agree with what you have to say about the arrogance... that might be one of the reasons...
but mostly my observation is that atheists think they are being more realistic and true to science... and that gradually the believers will 'come around'...
I am not telling any atheist what they should believe... I am just saying... they have as much scientific basis as a person who believes in God... period...
I see what you are getting at... You just don't want atheists to be labeled by what they DON'T believe in... is that right?
Anyway, I have a question for you... Do you consider yourself a man of science, is science what encouraged you to become an atheist? Do you believe in extra terrestrial life... intelligent or otherwise?
"no one till date has proven his non-existence...
The day it is "proved" their is no God ..."
You can't prove a negative - you cant 'prove' there are no such things as tooth fairies, easter bunnies or Father Christmas - by your logic you must believe these exist to. :-))
The burden of proof rests on finding evidence for god not on his non existence.
There is no evidence that by eating rice it enables you to travel through time, diguised as a pencil, being able to win all the golf tournaments ever held!
You don't say "Ah, you cant prove you cant, so I will be prepared to believe it"!
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I think the arrogance comes out when those who are religious insist on telling atheists what it is we believe.
As I said, atheism is not a Faith, with a capital 'F'. I can only have faith in that which has some evidence, not have faith in a 'nothingness'
What you believe is fine, it's just not something I have. So therefore not a Faith.
If I told you that you were not a real muslim because you lied when taking the Shahada because you are uncertain that Zeus, Odin, Shiva, Pagan tree spirits etc do not exist, you only have faith that they do not (ie There is no god but Allah, but I am willing to entertain the idea that there may be other gods because I can't be sure)- then you would quite rightly think I was telling you what YOU believe!
Now I am not saying that, just giving an example based on your idea of what 'faith' is.,
:)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Adey - I put my argument in the similar fashion...
no one till date has proven his non-existence...
The day it is "proved" their is no God ...
football ll be the only religion I ll follow :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Islam, Judaism and Chirstianity are faiths as well as religions
Hinduism, Buddhisms are faith and... religions of a different nature
Atheism is just a faith... no religion :-)
'Love' for country is an emotion and so it can be 'true'.
A god is an entity, it is either 'true' or 'not true' - I would need evidence of the entity to to prove its existence.
Same with the 'wife', easy to find evidence - god?; if you have evidence for this then you are the first and should publish this evidence so that the whole world knows - if your evidence is sound then I would have to change my view - but so far I have seen none by anyone ever, hence my stand.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Versi - atheism is a religion of its own....
All kinds of people shall follow it... single trait cannot define all... as Adey said... different intensity.. it exists in all faiths... :) even in non believers :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Yep Adey... exactly... that was my point... we both have our faiths... just that you believe in one God less than I do :-)) LOL...
But on a serious note, I have found some atheists very arrogant in their belief... and dismissing people of religion as stupid or backward... this i don't agree with
That is why I insisting on calling atheism too a faith because that too has only as much scientific basis as a faith that believes in the existence of a God...
Adey - really How does Believing in existence of every God worshiped and every Prophet followed makes me a non-believer...
I believe what I follow is truth....
I don say.. Only what I follow is truth.... thats something I cannot accept....
May be you haven't traveled much..
When you see someone who loves his nation as much as you do yours.... someone likes his language as much as you do yours... you know it is the love that matters.. not what loved...
Every Kid thinks he has got best parents in the world..
Every Parents think theirs is the best kid in the world...
they don have to prove other kids/parents wrong to prove themselves correct... Do they ??
nothing offends don worry... the rubbing makes one shine better :)
B T W I chose the example of wife.. as it strikes and resembled your stand to going "One God Further" :)
Wife exists ??? And so does the God (Back to square one :) )
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
my comments were specifically aimed at Ver, in reference to the definition of 'faith'.
With all due respect if you believe in everything then you believe in nothing.
Your married woman metaphor is not really the same as I have inescapeable proof that 'a' wife exists.
:)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
So what happens in countries in the days before jesus and mohammad. There is no such thing as religion except Paganism and these who follows Hinduism and buddishism. Christianity and Islam are all imported religion, propagated and seeded amoung people so as to make believe that there exist god. Ironicall, there are no immediate contacts or visual, only a convincing sermons and here we goes today. For the new generations, they are already born into the religion of their immediate parents. Some may, due to the above, becomes atheism. We cannot blame them for lack of religious evidence that they have as the basis for rejection.
Adey - I believe in existence of all Nouns of God and prophets...
All existed in different time zones, locations, preached different class and sect of people...
thats why the differences...
And it is as good as saying - even I am happily married..
only difference is you don look at other women... I don look at one more... ( wife)... :)...
examples are like tools.... if you know to use them... you can do whatever you want :)
Versi - La la.. not flan... Pajju.. nothing beyond LOL :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Actually I would have to be strictly honest and say I was an agnostic who was 99.999999999% sure there are no gods. So near to Atheism that it makes little difference - hence I prefer to use the label 'atheist'
One can only have faith in a positive not a negative. I am sure you would correct me if I said that you ONLY had FAITH that there is no Zeus, and that you could not be certain.
You are an atheist in terms of all the other gods throughtout human history, I just go one god further.
In those terms you also only have faith that these gods don't exist. So your faith and mine are the same.
Nes't pas?
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
flanotsu :-)) LOL
Versi - I thought so...
anyways... I intent it to be read by couple of people only... They read and respond... tht is all I seek...
But ya.. for better readership I should write less...
I try.. but there is so much to share on the topic...
wht you see is a edited version on post :)
I usually write 30% more and delete is ... most of the times.. :)
Writing less is an art I wanna practice,,,
I ll practice on the plural forum... :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
I can't be stealing your words... I don't read your comments unless they are addressed specifically to me or someone else says something interesting about them... they are too loooooong... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... :-p
Versi - Are you stealing my words or I am doing that to you ???
La la'
I ll put it in Hinglish -
Are you copycatting me ??? or I am copycatting you ??? :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Adey - Hmm.. thanks... true.. so like any religion... even non-believers have a Belief and they are sure it is correct and follow it...
To me it is irrelevant that their beliefs are in total contrast or not at all similar to the So called Believers.....
If to the rebellious to the present religious system... and in journey to be resistant to this system... it helps them be a better man than they are... its nice....
The only worry is.. it is restricted to individual...
It cannot be passed from generation to generation...
Or can it be ?
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
what is faith... its just the belief for something which does not have a proof...
the fact God created life cannot be scientifically proven... so believing in God is a faith
However the same fact cannot be scientifically dis-proven either...
Yet you choose to believe that God does not exist...
so you are like everyone else... you have a faith
Now being agnostic... that's not a faith... but atheism... its a faith all right...
Believers come in all intensities - so do non-believers.
For sure agnostics are non-believers, non-religious do not except any higher power and are for all intents and purposes are non-believers.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Adey - :) Comment on stamps was nice....
But are Atheists those who think there is no God ??
Or those who don care if there is one or not....
There is a difference between the two....
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Adey - When we say Atheists....
15% of the population if you say do not believe in God ???
Or it also includes those who don care whether god exists or not... ??
And thts cheating when you disintegrate the religious groups as Christians Muslims Jews Hindus... :)
Atheists are not those who don believe in Jesus only or Mohd. only... they don believe in GOD... and others Do...
So all the religions shall have to be counted together...
And to fight them if religions see a need to come together... They are God Sent Angels for me then :)
15% Atheists ??? In my environment.. I have not seen this percentage.. to be honest...
ha ha :)
it's not a faith.
Atheism is a faith in the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.
:P
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Just a small correction.
You descibed atheists as microminority.
In fact I have seen numerous surveys which point out that the atheists/agnostics/non-religious form the 3rd biggest grouping in the world.
Christianity is the biggest at around 2billion followed by Islam at around 1.3 billion then atheists/agnostics/non-religious at around 1billion.
That is about 15% of the worlds population and growing.
Obviously this is not spread out evenly just as religions are not, but atheists come from all cultures whereas religions tend to spring from certain cultural norms.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
No one is as devout as Adey to his faith...
Ashwin said,"It is summation of Wisdom of all wise men who have shared there spiritual experiences..."
Muslims wouldn't agree with you on this...
How did I come to the Judgement ??
"Difference is I dont need answers. I am fine with accepting mysteries as mysteries without assigning powers to be responsible for them"
from your post - timed 1:00 PM....
Bhagwat Gita Chapter 3 - It says.... Doer of the work should not have expectations of fruits of his work done...
If he is not affected by the results... and jus does his work... he is one who has understood the true Knowledge "Bhramhan"
One who is not happy when the results are good and not dishearten when results are the other way...
As he knows.... there is nothing in this materialistic world that is worth liking or feeling bad about...
Chapter 4 - talks about difference between Action, Wrong action and in-action...
To explain In-action... first what Action is....is explained.
Negation is a way used to explain the "non-Dual" side of the religion....
Chapter 5 - Says No actions is better than taking actions... but actions for Devotional work are more superior to no actions...
Taking no actions shall not give happiness to the doer...
And as the chapters go on.. they answer deeper and deeper questions of human mind.... Most Beautiful content I have ever read....
And Ya.. for rational answers... religion is a way....
And veyr mystically the Gita you mentioned here.. is or gives very rational answers to questions asked by Arjuna.. :)
Religion is not jus Dogmatic or ritualistic do's and Don'ts.... It is one of the portion of religion...
if you seek to go beyond.. there is more...
Looking at the portion of 5th Std and saying CBSE portion doesn talk about calculus shall not be wise....
Einstein is suppose to be one of the known philosopher known in the West world....
In west.... Philosophy was based on backbone of Science and Art....
unlike in India... where Philosophy is Backbone on which Science, art etc are dependent on.... :)
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Winn said
"I am fine with accepting mysteries as mysteries without assigning powers to be responsible for them"
to keep it simple, it means... you don't know...
Since you don't know, why judge others who think they do?
LOL, dude, you think a question mark there would have made any difference?
Also, what I said is I am fine with accepting that there are things beyond my knowledge at the present point in time, without assigning imaginary powers to be responsible for it. I did not say I am against having logical answers. Both are totally different things.
"I am seeking the answers... you are not... thats the only difference... " How well do you know me to make that judgement? Btw, where do you seek your 'rational' answers? In religion?
You are confusing whatever has been done by early scientists with the religion and culture of the times. Would you associate the works of Pasteur, Newton or Einstein to their religion? Well, thats something I wouldnt do. Both has to be seen in isolation, IMHO.
Again, if you are talking about the Karma yoga thing , shall I suggest a reading of Chapter 3 from Bhagavat Gita? While I agree with you that its derivation nor its practice is a work of faith alone, I have to say your previous posts kinda ontradict the essence of what has been said in Karma yoga. Do read it.
Winn - There lies the difference...
You don Wan answers....... and I do....
I ask questions and seek for the answers. rational ones...
Religion is more than Do's and Don'ts in life....
It is summation of Wisdom of all wise men who have shared there spiritual experiences... truths they have seen.....
Ayurved, Yoga, Karma Yog, Astrology (Jotish Vidhya) all these cannot be wrk of mere Faith.. lot of research and developed has happened to come to these sciences...
This was all developed systematically...
There are rational and convincing answers to all questions....
I am seeking the answers... you are not... thats the only difference...
Secondly - "Secondly they are not in love with anything" There was a Question mark after this ... " ???????? " which I thought of.. but didn Type :(
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
veri: Saying that faith does not provide answers does not mean I have the answers.
Difference is I dont need answers. I am fine with accepting mysteries as mysteries without assigning powers to be responsible for them.
Misinterpretation Ashwin? Read your own post 10.44 am and the line,"Secondly they are not in love with anything".
Also, hating the crime and being against the root cause/ principle behind it, is different from hating the people who are used to carry it out. The actors keep changing but the basic script is the same. and what I am against is the script, not the actors. The script that has been dictating these acts for eons.
Winn - About Atheism -
Very much like a Religion.. or faith... They too "believe"
GOD DOESN'T EXIST
Mostly all the atheists when I ask why -
They say can you prove there is God ???
Is that the way to "Prove" there is NO GOD
Can anyone actually prove his existence or non-existence...
even the atheists think/assume/believe there is no God..
there is no Proof...
If there was...
NO one would have followed him.
Secondly -
Look around.. all the major fights in this world...
Are for POWER, LAND, Resources....
If America Hates Muslims.. why is there a Army Base in Qatar ??
Where was religion in World War 1, 2.. colonization, imperialism ????
What you see as religious fights is Politically triggered... emotionally fooled people...
And still list all the conflicts in the world...
You can see the percentage of religion in them...
North vs South Korea...
Vietnam
If you think religion is the only reason for the unrest in this world....
I ll not quit this topic.... :) first time got a platform to discuss Atheism.. for a change... :)
I m not a Atheists... but to be honest... I wan this group to grow stronger....
Cunningly Yes...
Jus Because I am unable to see any other solution for Religious/communal Harmony :)
Khalid - If you respect someone Jus cause he respects you...
Or love someone jus cause they love you...
It is not emotion... it is trade.....
Mother Loves her son no matter wht he thinks of Her..
Thts Love my fren... Thts how Gods/Prophets love us...
Thst how love wrks...
It isn't a trade (Ya ya I learnt this from Bollywood :) )
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
WINN - Again... Mis interpreting big big time ...
I didn say Atheists don love anything...
I say.. love to God.. or religion is like loving/caring for anything else...
when you are attached to something.. you care for it...
and you try to preserve as much possible... religion.. like anything else.. too included...
Killing is a act.. justification is given by the motive behind it... Then very much like terrorists are hated...
All Army/Navy and air force men too be hated equally ???
Is that what you mean ????
Those who are trying to protect the civilians by killing Terrorists are criminals ???
Motive behind the action cannot be separated and judge action only.....
And that is why.. I feel.. terrorists are not bad people... they are religious.. they are fighting for faith... to them.. their faith is in danger.. thts why they act this way..
Wrong are those who are misleading them....
To counter attack this.. we need a bigger army who can spread the true messages of religion...
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Winn said
"Do you believe faith really provides 'satisfactory' answers to them? I dont think so, but like I said, if it floats your boat, you are welcome."
You seem to have the 'answers' then...
"Secondly they are not in love with anything": Quite a statement, Ashwin! Do you mean to say we aren't humans?Mind explaining how you reached this 'profound' conclusion? Not being attached to a religion means they dont love anything?
Btw, every killer has a justification, but that doesnt make it any less of a crime. Look at every unrest in every part of the world. and then say religion has got nothing to do with any of it. If you can say so, i shall quit this topic. (Talking beyond that point would be a futile attempt, i suppose)
they respect our right culture habits and beliefs.
I want to share this short video for an ex-atheist mathematics professor who decided to join Islam
it consist of three parts and it is not very long
Faith in a contractor, faith in superpower it falls into same example of dumping all the unknowns together to be answered by faith.
Intuition, running the existence...thts what I meant by unknowns. Nobody has really 'explained' it by faith either. they just attribute it to certain imaginary forces and give their own names. Do you believe faith really provides 'satisfactory' answers to them? I dont think so, but like I said, if it floats your boat, you are welcome.
B T W... Why Atheists Don kill ???
Firstly hardly a percentage of population... microminority group... Secondly they are not in love with anything....
you would fight for a gal.. only when you like her....
Never seen a guy showing off I fever fight.. I m wise enough not to fall in love... He doesn know wht he is missing :)
Its on all fields winn.....
If you are patriotic... people who kill others in your Army uniform... we call them Heroes...
We fight to retain our Jobs... we fight to retain our business market share.... fight to earn more....
fight to buy better house....
A religious man.. seeks nothing of these.. fights not for these... but what really matters... peace of mind....
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Winn - Thats Faith and religion mistaken big time....
When I say Faith that the building wont fall...
Did it say faith in Super power ???
It is faith in the builder... constructor.. that he has done a good job.....
It is Faith on the Scientist who says Oxygen is a element ans not a compound... not super power....
I can't collecting proofs for all these things.. thats why you trust on each other.. trust .. faith that you are doing your part of the job to run this world correctly...
till now it was all rational...
Super power.. lets talk that out now..
Existence of super power is Ill-developed and imaginary notion.. as you suggest....
Honestly .. even I was a die hard follower of this belief...
It was amusing to think.. so much in the name of religion.. on one assumption that there is God listening.... :) I really used to love it..'
But running this Existence .... is impossible to justify with mere Coincidence ???????
Don think so...
How do you justify intuition ???
And biggest question which justified me his existence was.... We are blessed with 5 senses.. we perceive our world with these five sense..
whtver we can see, touch, feel, smell exists....
What if we had another sense organ... we would have perceived this world differently..
SO the world I know.. I see.. is not what it is... it is a part what I m unable to sense....
Bats can see in night... dogs can't see color (Again Faith on book where I read this :) ) for them world is different....
We all don see the exactly same rainbow... all get unique angel and unique view to it....
WILL is belief that "It is possible".....
Faith works cause faith comes from Heart... or the emotional part of the brain...
Logic comes from MIND.. mind when thinks rationally.... interprets data of what has happened....
Faith.. heart... originates from Heart.. it seeks and sees what you want ..... not what you think you can have......
A 75 KG less experienced Boxer cannot think logically he can defeat a 80 KG better trained one......
He jus wants to win.... trusts his coach when he says Son you can do it.. and it happens.. Thats power of faith...
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Ashwin: "But majority of the people are on the right path thanks to religion..."
You mean, fear of hell and lure of heaven keeps em in line? Doesnt say much about their moral fibre, does it?
Now, lets have a look at the bad side. The violence, bloodshed and paranoia side. How much of it is contributed by atheists? and how much by so-called believers and in teh name of their faiths?
"cant spend so much of time to check everything in life...." Exactly Ashwin, thats what you are doing. You are dumping all of life's unanswered questions and mysteries in one box and assigning an imaginary and ill-developed notion of a super power as the key to that box.(Thats what I believe anyway. If it works for you, you are more than welcome to it.)
Which you wouldnt need to do if you were fine with accepting unknowns and uncertainities. I also drive over bridges and walk into highrises, but i dont NEED faith to do that. Would suggest a try ;) Believe me, even if there was a god, he must have surely forsaken the construction sites in this part of the world long back. Been there, can tell you that!If Newton had satisfied himself with an explanation that the apple was destined to fall by a higher power, it would have really been a waste of such a great mind, is what I think.
Personally,I Wouldnt mix will with faith. Will is belief in yourself . Faith is belief in a superpower.
Winn - People See Atheists are those who are not doing anything wrong in the name of religion...
But majority of the people are on the right path thanks to religion...
There are few who misuse it.. but not in majority for sure....
Call it fear of God.. or Love of God... or a Seeking to live upto the unlimited potential of human body and decoding the funny way of how our brain functions and dictates us.....
Its religion.. which takes you beyond or above the misery in this world...
Religion not Science dares to answer the questions which Logic is unable to...
And if you notice..Everything in this world is Faith...
I still Trust or have a faith that.. Earth is not Flat but Circle..... I have never seen it circular....
I was told it is... I was shown the pics...
I trust the person/evidences....which can be manipulated not necessary to be true....
And many more..
It took us an Year in school to understand why Apple fell on Newtons head...
cant spend so much of time to check everything in life....
I have to believe..
That the building is made of good Steel and wont fall..
I have to believe that the car I drive is not ill-engineered to save money.....
I believe what we breath in is Oxygen and given out is CO2.... Never seen this...
I still believe Oxygen is a Element.. not a Compound...
tomorrow if a Scientist gets up and says no it is mixture of Two elements.. I ll have to believe him then...
B T W... Never seen a Lamp.. A candle... A Pic.. giving hope/strength to a disheartened/defeated/needy person without being powered by faith...
Will of a Man is the strongest material on this planet...
Cannot happen with logical reasoning .... Faith is only ingredient that does it...
Whether one accepts or not... Faith is a Foundation needed for all....
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
About atheism and comparative religions:
In my personal experience , atheists are able to offer a better perspective on beliefs followed by various faiths and their cultural underpinnings. They are neutral. Majority of them do not go around preaching atheism from pulpits or any kind of forums for that matter. Just check out QL. How many posts have been started advocating/pushing atheism compared to those advocating other faiths? Again, it is my personal view that atheists are people for whom it would be easier to give equal justice to every religion without favoritism towards any.
For eg, I cannot imagine a devout follower of any religion, teaching other religions without implying that they are not 'true' enough or sanctioned by the big guy.
Verisi: A dictat passed by an overbearing principal and a law, a system followed by a country: Are they comparable? (Anyways, the school i studied in India was a public school with a hindu name and they had 2 hours lunch break on Fridays.Used to luv the xtra one hour of football ;) ) It remains that religous tolerance/ acdceptance of other (minority)faiths and legal sanction within the constitutional frame work for practising the same, is never gonna be a strong point in any nation with a muslim majority, I guess.
and believe me, you could hav put the principal in hot soup if a suit was filed against him for denial of your right to follow ur faith. (ofcourse you were too young to think of that angle)Dont see that happening here.
I am amazed that we go over the same old arguments.
As PCG said, To each his own...
"Never confuse the faith with the supposedly faithful." (Milholland)
:( So much to read to jump into the loop...
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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it
Our level of thinking is not the same at all even though we are of the same being. Take the case of a dog who are taught to bark from birth, and so he barks the whole of his life. He will resist change and if provoked will bites. Just how are we being taught from birth, firstly we honour our mother and father no matter how wrong they are. Same like religion, what we are taught to believe from the day we are borm, would be glorify and defend till death. That explains the division between Islam, christianilty, buddish, Hindus etc.
No, he didn't!
God exist!!! He created everything. HE is the creator of time, matter and space. These are transient entities. Transient entities cannot come into existence by themselves.
tells you that Islam is the true path...............an awful lot of other people tell you it is not.
I always thought that once a Muslim always a Muslim. You cannot convert even if you wanted to. Sounds to me that a lot (i.e Muslims) cannot question anything about their religion or they would be frowned upon or disowned.
It seems you are owned.
I respect any religion but please don't ever say that yours is the ONLY one. If it where surely by now your almighty God/Prophet would have converted us all.
As it is, there are an awful lot of religions out there that have more 'members' whose faith is just as strong if not stronger.
_______________________________________________
The path to true happiness is paved with gin and tonics :-))))))
This (Qur'ân) is a Message for mankind (and a clear proof against them), in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is the only One Ilâh (God - Allâh) - (none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh),— and that men of understanding may take heed.
Noble Qur'an 14:52
You get the rewards when you're dead, flan. Ahem.
religion is the main cause of poverty.
i think you're all better off praying to the money god, which i suspect the majority of people are doing anyway.
I did believe that until a friend of mine told me differently. However, Sun is implying this is not the case.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
adey said "... I am not bashing the Islamic Zakat system, it does a lot of good, I'm just saying one has to give for the right reasons to claim credit."
Yes, should be right. It is always the true intent that matters most.
*****************************************
The Cookie Monster said it.
PM said Sun, I thought the Ramadan shortened hours only applied to Muslims ..."
Nope. Applies to everyone. Creates or encourages the feeling of solidarity, doesn't it?
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The Cookie Monster said it.
Sun, thats what most people have the perception on. But I would strongly say spiritual part of it rather the political and financial otherwise it won't serve any purpose. Maybe as some have said, opportunity would comes easy for being part of the team.
Most of the adult Muslims start become devout and start rediscovering their religion once they realise the political and financial advantages of it.
dipped in holy water i have tasted that too
In my observation many born Muslims who are very devout usually became so after a certain point in their adult life. They often have a story to tell, a great experience or hardship which changed their outlook of the world... something that caused them to rediscover their religion and pursue it with more passion... some of them talk of an earlier stage of their lives as 'jahiliyya' :-)
Then there are those who build on their level of devotion instilled from childhood, what they had been taught...
I find the prior more interesting to talk to... I can relate to them more... now if i would have my epiphany...
Adey & eagelmanuel..
It's the first time that I hear the term 'pantheism'. No offense meant but as a believer I think Satan is getting very creative :D
Raison: "I sometimes dally with the hope that my ajer (good deeds) for the profound privaledge of being Muslim is similar to that of the fortunate ones who have embraced Islam of their free will."
I agree with you on this. Even those born into Islam do choose it at some point and feel thankful for it, whereas others will just carry it as a mere identity.
Schooling has nothing to do with indoctrinating Islam or any religon for that matter.
I went to school in England and while growing up there I was cast in the schools pantomime A rendition of the story of Jesus (The Prophet Essa pbuh).
I even sang in the school choir! The governess my parents employed to help raise us, bless her, was a devout Christian and spent a great deal of time with us, in fact just as much as our parents did.
I recall at my constant nagging, she reservedly took me to church (I doubt my parents knew) because I wanted to taste that cookie they place in your mouth lol
(all I recall was that it tasted like a bland craker that lost it's crunch BC :)
My parents, although devout practicing muslims never force fed us our religon and in all honesty I can say that I when I began exploring it, I did so of my own accord, with none of this hidden push many of you speak of.
Why?
Because I have found that Islam is the most logical religon/way of life that calls & caters to every level of my existance as it does to those who surround me.
I cannot describe it in better terms, However I'm sure the practicing muslims will relate to what I've described.
I am extreemly thankful that I wasn't subjected to outer influences during my childhood and I sometimes dally with the hope that my ajer (good deeds) for the profound privaledge of being Muslim is similar to that of the fortunate ones who have embraced Islam of their free will, those of whom were raised with no idea or influences whatsoever and they chose to revert to Islam.
Because the deeds for them is doubled than that whom was formally trained into Islam :)
I only hope that those of you who 'search' find the right sources for the knowledge/discussion you seek.
Back to the point, although I was born into it but i think that my situation lends itself as a perfect case study that ought to proove that Islam is NOT instilled in us by society or by education. It is the perfect Religon!
PM's "It's easier for them to accept the idea that people follow the "wrong" religion, than have none at all"
I Beg to differ because contrary to general belief that Islam is force fed to us Muslims, because it is NOT.
We too go through times of doubt and reflection, but this only encourages our Islamic freedom to ASK. Subsequently resulting with a stronger bond & belief in God existance that has come to us unadulterated through Islam.
Simply put; Islam is a religon that encourages questioning because it is the one source where we find the answers.
Did you think it is by coincedence that very few leave Islam and an increasing number of people (mainly those of the scripture) revert to Islam.
It's a simple continum of the same message that was conveyed through all the Prophets.
A message that has remained unchanged by politics for over 1400 years.
It is also why the subject of religon is greatly disscussed as can be seen on QL, there is an innate part of the human psyche and survival instict to :-
A Worship
B everyone wants to know their outcome after death.
Salax pointed this out above.
With no intention of drawing your attention to another thread, I just want to share a short doccumentary of the life of the Prophet Mohammed recently posted.
I feel after watching this, many questions maybe answered.
http://www.qatarliving.com/node/688652
I've heard of at least on episode in Qatar, an expat school girl... scary stuff!
Regarding the Prom culture mentioned above.
That part we were never allowed to do, and thankfully the schools we attended focused on real education as opposed to the current Education City reform in Qatar that emphasizes on :-
S O C I A L I Z E or Die LOL
I hear they go to great lengths marketing this important rite of passage by renaming it "LEAVERS DINNER" when the year before the name "PROM" didn't go down to well with the last of the mohican Qatari's
Oh well, you know how it is nowadays, if you don't mix you have no culture or breeding therefore you are ignorant uncivilized arabs!
lets see how they kick off the 'breeding' as we CHARGE like raging bulls to adopt the sticky problems the West is trying to rid it's self of :D
Interesting article named
Why we should sterilise teenage girls ... temporarily at least
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-514542/Why-sterilise-teenage-girls---temporarily-least.html#ixzz0QBDU8DWx
I don't think its a big issue either... I am beginning to get the feeling that you may have a few blind spots wrt Islam
I get your point... currying favour with God as opposed to only desiring good for another human being... yeah well we are supposed to desire the blessings of Allah, this is central to our good deeds being accepted by Allah
If that makes a Muslim any less in your eyes... well basically he shouldn't care, he ought to care more about what Allah thinks...
When I said that no one should come to know... I mean other people... obviously Allah comes to know... that's the whole point...
I agree people do good deeds regardless of religion... yup... sure... just human good will...
people I know and have actually discussed this with. I did not intend to speak for anybody else.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Ps
In a way one is advertising their level of Zakat because if one believes in an all knowing god then obviously he knows.
Be aware that I am not saying these are the motives for all religious people. I am sure alot of people would do it even if it was not a religious requirement.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I'm not making a big issue of it, its not of great concern to me; I was just enjoying the chat.
Surfice to say I was just interested if people are doing good for goodnes sake or to curry favour with their god?
Thus they might be doing good for purely selfish reasons.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I'm not quite clear as to what you mean. Who is Diana?
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I'd urge you to refrain from baiting the fundamentalists... They don't celebrate the prophet's birthday, they have loudly and repeatedly declared the celebration of it to be an "innovation", "neo-paganism", "neo-christianism"... Some muslims celebrate birthdays in the family too. It's a cultural thing anyways, if you do or don't, makes little next to no difference. Some people celebrate anything, and some celebrate almost nothing :)
if people follow a religion or they don't. Being religious does not automatically make a good person. I know some very nice caring, sharing, compasionate people who are athiests.
As long as your moral compass is set in the right direction from a very early age then religion is not needed.
If Muslims are not 'allowed' to celebrate birthdays, then why is the Prophets 'birthday' acknowledged? Is it not a date on most calenders?
I think a lot of times people make things up as they go along.
______________________________________________
The path to true happiness is paved with gin and tonics :-))))))
like i get: Diana alert msg in my mail box :))
I still don't agree with your definition of 'moral act'...
I think the issue stems from the fact that a Muslims act of piety is different from the moral act of an atheist
A Muslim who does a pious duty... one that is compulsory like zakaat (charity during holy month of Ramadhan specifically for the poor, a certain percentage of one's savings set as a pillar of Islam) or non-compulsory like Sadaqah (non-compulsory and up to the person's discretion) does so in diety to Allah and to have his blessings... he desires goodwill for mankind in this world... and he desires Allah's blessings in the after life...
It is also interesting to note that Islam encourages people not to call out their good deeds because people may tend to say give money in charity as a means of getting recognition... this is not encouraged in Islam... you shall not call out your good deeds...
If you think this is selfish in any manner and would not constitute a moral act or makes it any less than an act of charity with the sole intention of goodwill for mankind... so be it... but these are what a Muslim desires from a good deed...
I am afraid you are quite wrong on this matter, as eaglemanuel has explained.
You may find it difficult to comprehend such a point of view but that does not entitle you (and I say this with all due respect) to tell others what they believe. I think you would be mightly offended if I were to say muslims don't exist because.....................etc.
To get back to the topic; in my daily life I have never mentioned the fact of being an atheist because it is not something that affects any aspect of my life, it's no big deal - thus no discrimination.
In fact there is only one muslim colleague that knows, and only then that was because she thought I was a christian, I had to tell her I wasn't. She asked me a direct question about what I believed and I wasn't going to lie to her. It has made not one jot of difference to our relationship.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
QatariLady said "You're right salax.. Atheists don't exist. They do believe in God but give Him a different name. They call Him Nature!"
Sorry, QatariLady, that would be a Pantheist / Pantheism - the Universe (Nature) and God are the same. An Atheist - (anti-theist) just does not believe God exists
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The Cookie Monster said it.
You're right salax.. Atheists don't exist. They do believe in God but give Him a different name. They call Him Nature!
"sadaka" and "zakat" are not the same. Charitable work or deeds are perceived as noble by God, and if you have faith you are compelled by it to pay zakat, so it is not on your own morals I agree, the religion teaches good morals and encourages charitable work other than payment of Zakat. Zakat is basically "Islamic welfare". You pay into social security don't ya? Well Islam dictates that there can be no compulsion in religion, so while you are compelled to pay it if you have faith, no one is allowed to enforce the collection of it. The logic may seem complex but if you apply your mind to it, you will see the rationality is sound ;)
As for atheists, while Islam does not treat them as favourably as christians and jews, people in general don't care unless you're Dick Dawkins or something. They won't go to great lengths to proselytize to you, they may try a few times because it is perceived as a good deed to a fellow human being, but if they perceive you're offended by their attempts they will back off.
Apostasy is a completely different matter. I don't agree that it is the greatest sin as whitefeather said (the greatest sin is, quite logically, suicide), and I disagree with a lot of the capital punishment that has been doled out for it throughout history, as I have not seen any basis for it in the Qur'an itself. I would gladly consider any quotations offered on the matter, so those of you that know better do not hold out on a brudda :)
The choice is theirs. Its a religious law anyway and as discussed in previous threads, comes the moral part of it on the percentage channelled to the goods and the bad.
therefore compulsory for muslims even if it is not legally enforced. There is huge pressure not to invoke the wrath of the big guy! :)
Thus the paying of Zatak may, for some, has less than alturistic motives.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
but at the same time, those things which are not enforced by law are followed or not according to one's moral compass I believe.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
You chose others are born into it.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
which are not in effect "moral obligations" since they are not legally enforced. Like right now, I am fasting but there are no cameras in place to enforce that rule. If I wanted to sneak and eat I could. But I don't because I believe I am morally obligated to fast. And Islam was my CHOICE as a religion. It was not forced upon me. So what I do, I do because I think it is morally correct.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
I would say it is a religious obligation not a moral obligation, as Zakat is one of the 5 pillars of Islam.
It's circular, one cannot be a muslim and ignore one of its central tennents.
It therefore does not make it an individual moral act but rather it is moral aspect of the religion.
Do you see what I am driving at. I don't want to make a big thing about it however.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
britexpat said "...R.E should be compulsory at school. The aspects of all major religions, including Atheism should be taught. Parents should not have an opt out clause."
Wholly agree with you on that. Aspects of ALL main religions or beliefs should be taught, including Atheism and people should have freedom to make their own informed decision and choose. Anything coerced or one sided is always counter-productive. As one seeks, one will find the truth, not necessarily immediately, but eventually.
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The Cookie Monster said it.
PM please check the working hours of nonmuslim doctors at Hamad Hospital during Ramadan
flanostu said "My fellow employees can't believe they actually work with an atheist....it's great!!!"
Yes, indeed it is great. Your different perspectives will help them learn new things and vice versa.
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The Cookie Monster said it.
Most firms following Ramadan work hours
By Sarmad Qazi/Staff Reporter
Strict enforcement of Ramadan working hours by the Labour Department this year has benefited most labourers in Qatar.
In the previous years, as most companies felt that following the labour law regarding Ramadan working hours was optional, labourers continued to work their usual 10-12 hour long shifts that start at 6am.
The labour law in Qatar calls for a six-hour work day during Ramadan for all – Muslims and non-Muslims alike – in addition to two hours of permitted overtime.
“The shift still starts at 6am but ends at 12pm. Some of our non-Muslim colleagues agreed to work overtime since the company is eager to end the project on time,” Akram, an Egyptian labourer working at a building site in Doha, said.
“But it’s still a long day for us. We remain awake after the Suhour (ends at 4am) since the bus collects us at 5am from the camp in Rayyan,” he added.
Another low-income worker, a non-Muslim, at a site near the Villagio, said he and his colleagues are required to work only six hours as their supervisor is a Muslim.
According to Article 73 of the Qatari Labour Law Number (14) of 2002: “The maximum ordinary working hours ... (during the) month of Ramadan shall be 36 hours per week at the rate of six hours per day.
The time spent by the worker in transportation to and from the place of work and residence of the worker shall not form part of the working hours.”
On Ramadan, the Law further states: “The working hours shall include an interval or more for prayer, rest and taking of meals which interval or intervals shall not be less than one hour and shall not be more than three hours. The said intervals shall not be taken into consideration in calculating the working hours in fixing the rest interval but the worker shall not work more than five consecutive hours.”
For juveniles under the age of 16, Article 90 of the Law calls for a work day of not more than four hours during Ramadan.
However, there are companies, especially the cleaning firms which fail to observe the law as some cleaners in offices were found to be working far more than the stipulated schedule.
Senior officials at the Ministry of Labour have recently reiterated that the law is there for all to follow, failing which there will be consequences.
In an interview with Gulf Times last month, Labour Inspection Department manager Mohamed Saeed al-Naimi had said the inspection teams of the Department will continue to check whether companies are flouting the timings during Ramadan.
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=312766&version=1&template_id=36&parent_id=16
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
In Saudi non Muslims officially work longer hours..
In my current place in Doha, everyone works the same hours..
Maybe I didn't explain it well.
The intention and not the act makes it moral or not.
Why must you be good?
If I give when I don't have to then I am doing good with freewill - thus it is morally good.
If I give because I have no choice then it is morally ambiguous - just like paying taxes.
I am not bashing the Islamic Zakat system, it does a lot of good, I'm just saying one has to give for the right reasons to claim credit.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Muslims but then a friend told me that it applies to everyone. They said that in the Qatar Foundation ALL employees are supposed to have shorter hours and she used the reasoning that surely QF is following the laws of the country.
Does anybody know for a fact that this is not the case? Is it true that non-Muslims have to work more hours than Muslims during Ramadan in Qatar?
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
ENFORCED by law (meaning that it is deducted from wages or billed to you). It is a moral obligation and we do it because of that.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Neither do I see any harm in children 'learning' about other religions... my concern is on children internalizing cultural practices alien to their religious and cultural backgrounds...
it gets tricky here cos religion and culture in the Islamic perspective are very closely related... please put this in context with the question that Adey asked me about why i wouldn't send children to a multi-cultural school and my initial reply to him...
Religion tells us we MUST be good, MUST pray, MUST help the needy... by your definition... all these acts would cease to be be moral acts... I don't agree with your definition of a moral act...
It makes every good deed an atheist does a moral act and only some that a believer does a moral act :-)
Your concerns regarding culture protection are valid.. This is the job of the parents. I see no harm in children learning about other religions and the parents ensuring that the children adhere to the norms of their religion.
white feather..i believe its not how you pray,but what you pray for that matters.
Let me just make a small point, you posted:
"In Islam you must donate money, MUST."
Now whether it be Islam or any other faith, if you are commanded by religious rules it ceases to be an individual act of morality.
One MUST pay taxes in many countries - no one deems themselves moraly soothed because they pay the unavoidable tax, even when it goes to those less fortunate.
This is not bashing, just pointing out that Zakat is not a moral act if it is enforced.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I guess it's true when they say People do see what THEY want to see. Anyways I'm done some people just to want to understand.
In Muslim world, being a non believer or non muslim definitely leads to disadvantages.Like in work place your chances of promotion will be affected. During Ramadan, nonmuslims are asked to do inhumane no of extra hours without any extra payment. So you are free to be a nonbeliever or non muslim in Qatar at your own disadvantage.However, there is no point in cribbing, as we choose to come and work here.
I should also add that i am more bothered about this culture protection between the ages of around 7 up until 16...
i believe those are the years when a person is shaped...
Eventually the person has to live in a multi-cultural society and has to learn to fit in, but one would hope that by 17, enough character building has taken place to enable one to understand and appreciate one's own culture...
I had a rude culture shock at 18 when i joined a multi-culture institute... it took a year to get used to it... but by 19, I knew how to hold my own without sticking out like a sore thumb... i know people who got so tangled in the culture shock and the new found freedom that they got completely lost and confused... yeah well...
white feather,i read what u posted earlier too..just that i dont really see that kind of tolerance for propogation of another faith other than Islam in countries that are Islamic states(we're talking bout qatar rules here)..which is what the topic was about.though it was initially bout atheism..what you posted is nice..to be frank i dont see that is what is being followed..
and in your last post you basically admitted what I am saying: that Qatar is based on an Islamic state but has other influences as well. Thus we have to be careful in any statement that implies everything done in Qatar follows Islamic guidelines.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
j3375 I'm going to repost since you don't read well.
"j3375, all Muslims should act like the Prophet (ASWS). And when he had invaded a countery/city he would offer Islam to the people of that country/city if they were to embrace it alhamdulilah if not they would protect them as they were their own and they'd live with the Muslims in harmony. And God tell's Mohammad (SAWS) that he (the prophet (SAWS)) should do nothing to the kufar (the non believers ie. the atheists.) As he Allah, will take care of them.
Fri, 04/09/2009 - 2:35pm"
I also agree with PM. Birdie I'm afraid you might be boss eyed, since you're seeing everything the other way round. In Islam you must donate money, MUST. And you must help the poor and the weak and the homeless, etc.
Pm..Im not saying that Qatar is a perfect Islamic State..but a model based mainly on it..
thats why all the non tolerance to other faiths/beliefs being propogated (getting back to the org topic)..u may see it like im Islam bashing,but im just pointing out the fact that thats how it works under Islamic law..is there any difficulty understanding that?..Mentioning Islam was relevant to the topic we were discussing..aswe were discussing the tolerance to atheism here,which led to the laws regarding other beliefs..
Exactly... that's why i often say that I rate Qatar as one of the top places in the world where I'd like to live... its cos i liked the experience i had being brought up here, culturally from a Muslim perspective... and i'd rather my children are brought up here...
But again, things have changed a lot in the last ten years... internet, cable TV... changes the equation big time...
In a perfect Islamic state the leaser would be selected from among the Muslims by consensus based on who would have the most knowledge and best ability to lead. Qatar is a monarchy and thus doesn't follow Islam in every matter of governance. Monarchies are NOT an Islamic convention.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
PM,the legal system.. civil courts(non shariah courts) u mention r for trying people who are not muslim,but what gets somebody to those civil courts could be breaking a rule thats considered unislamic..
I've been there n i know..i dont lack understanding,esp on these matters.
lol Versi.. thanks for the info :P
I DONT agree with YOU birdie.. and i second PM on that..
Thanks for answering.
I suppose also it depends on the kind of society one lives in - what the cultural norms are. I mean, it would be easier to be sure that your child would fit into a mainly muslim culture, say like here in Qatar. But say, for instance, you lived in Australia or Canada it would be much more difficult to avoid 'ghettoizing' yourselfs. Just a thought.
I suspect you might say that you would not bring up children in such societies.
span style="font-style: italic">"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I know many, many people of different faiths who are very generous with their time and money to help the less fortunate. I don't think it is an atheist vs. believer issue. It just depends on the person.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
veris..Not my place to lecture you on parenting,but give ur kid a chance at making those later decisions on his own(kissing/having girlfriends,etc)..going by what you write here,i'm sure ull do your best to inculcate ur faith in him..the reason he got obsessed with bdays(being a kid) is bcos u dont have it at home..so i dont think its the case of a culture being imposed on you,but the lack of acceptance for it that actually led to the obsession you r describing here..
One thing is certain..the more rules you set,the more likely kids are to break them(not out of bad character,but simply out of rebellion.youth rebel..)fact of life..
Qatar's governance isn't based ONLY in Islam. Look at the legal system: there are both Islamic courts (sharia) and civil courts.
Look Italy is basically a Catholic country in that many Catholic principles are applied there and the majority of Italians are Catholic. But Italy is not the same as strict Catholic state. Only the Vatican meets that standard and they are a separate country.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
i dont know all will agree with me.
Most of the atheists are having more values in life. they do give more donations to poor people. They are more friendly with others.
These qualities are there in believer also, i agree. but not to the level of atheists. They do beleive in something, so they became atheists.. But beleivers does not have to beleive in any ideology,, they became mechanically believers wthout any logc, ideology...
why does an atheist has to even prove that he is an atheist let alone publicly admit it,, for what joy?
I am new to the fact that only if a person tells his religion along with his name would someone be "friendly" with that person.
just a comment.... other itsy bitsy in between talks by my dear forum mates can carry on.
In the United States and Canada, a prom, short for promenade, is a formal (black tie) dance, or gathering of high school students, held at the end of senior year.
But I like the way you are thinking ;-)
"irl friends, dating, relationships, parties, prom, kissing..."
Whats prom? :#
Thank you for asking...
This is a predicament that affects most Muslim parents
I would love to send my son to a multi faith school and I want him to have a healthy understanding of other faiths as well and have a chance to interact with people of all faiths...
However... multi-faith schools at least here in Qatar and in the West tend to have practices which don't sit very well in Islamic faith...
For instance... my wife and I never celebrate birthdays... not because we have anything against it... its just not something we did growing up... its not a part of Muslim culture... we don't gift each other or wish each other during anniversaries... we do it for Eid of course... and then randomly buy gifts, we both like surprises...
But after my three year old started going to playschool, he has completely got obsessed with birthdays... he keeps talking about cutting cakes, getting gifts, party caps... Of course we don't have an issue in inviting over his friends to have a good time... we do take him with his friends to the beach... or to the park but we feel the birthday culture were imposed on us...
Now I KNOW this is the easier challenge... we have tougher challenges ahead... girl friends, dating, relationships, parties, prom, kissing... these are all things which are normal in multi-faith schools... even borderline permissible with other faiths such as Christians and Hindus... but unfortunately... not so okay with Muslims
Hence... I would probably not mind putting my son in multi-faith schools in junior classes... but eventually... I would need to shift him...
veris..its unfortunate that you came across ppl who werent capable of handling the reponsibility to nurturing thought in kids the right way..
i had a teacher who once mentioned he's an atheist..when teaching 9th grade kids..though he actually taught us Hindi since the 6th std..
He was the best school teacher i came across..and the most respected of the lot we had in school..not bcos of his lack of belief (mentioned just once when asked),but bcos his classes were simply a joy to attend..
PM i dont see how governence based on Islamic law doesnt represent Islam..as in the case of Qatar..cos its a model thats put in place..whether the model is followed/not is human nature..
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Just a question, why not send your child to a multi faith school to learn about living in tolerence with all walks of life and get his Islamic education at home and in thr mosque?
I am genuinely interested in your reasons.
Thank you.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I beg to differ... it depends on the professionalism of the individual...
BTW Adey... you slipped... :-)
"I don't dismiss the fact that people of faith cannot be very good religious education teachers"
It shows :-p
commitment to religious freedom in public institutions. We also have private schools of different faiths (both multi-faith secular and singular faith-based); and they are exempted from many of these laws. However, since taxes go to providing free education to all we want to make sure that no religious discrimination or indoctrination takes place.
I'm a big advocate of public schools in principle (as long as they maintain high standards) because I prefer that faith be handled in the home.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
well I don't dismiss the fact that people of faith cannot be very good religious education teachers, there are many many excellent ones. I would just say that atheists have a natural advantage to teach about religion without bias. Even one of these should know when talking about atheism not to promote this as the 'right' position.
Sounds like your teacher was making an ill timed personal opinion in a jokey form. Hey, but we all make mistakes.
:)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I know how paranoid people are in the US to keep religion out of classrooms...
In India, we tend to have private schools which are managed by people from different faiths...
I prefer the latter system though, I'd rather send my children to a Muslim school...
He was teaching social studies... and about the origin of Christianity I think... after saying that Jesus used to be a shepherd... and then before passing on to something else... he just smiled and said something to the effect that many shepherds became prophets because they had lot of time to waste while the sheep are grazing... I was older than 7... probably lot older... more like 11 or 12... I think of him as a bad teacher because he was a bad teacher, not because he was an atheist... but just to prove my point that atheists tend to have more flash points with believers than between believers of different faiths... the existence of God or nonexistence is much more basic than the differences between faiths...
Anyway... I disagree with you... I don't think atheists would make better teachers for comparative religion than anyone else... it has more to do with the person's professionalism...
I went to American public schools and universities. In the States we have strong laws about religious bias and discrimination. I am not saying it doesn't EVER happen, but most people would fear losing their jobs for crossing that boundary.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
I don't ever start promoting Atheism - I only put an alternative point of view when anyone posts what they think is a religious certitude (of whatever faith) in order to tell someone what is right and what they should do.
People come to Atheism of their own accord, I really don't care what anyone believes as long as that belief does not curtail another's freedom due to some dogma.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
In my 21 years as a student, I have come across SEVERAL professors who inadvertently said things which were religiously biased... some of them more often than others...
they may not have intended to use the classroom for conversions, but the bias shows...
I cant comment on your previous teacher as I don't know all the facts, if you remember it that way and he did indeed try and indoctrinate you into that view then he was wrong - however that might have been a counter argument designed to generate discussion and it's something you have remembered - I don't know I wasn't there. :)
Whether religious or not the teachers job is to remain objective.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Adey... I just realized that would hit a raw nerve with you wouldn't it... :-)
that really wasn't deliberate...
but I must say, considering that you spend so much time online advocating atheism...
I wonder if you are the same way subconsciously... in your real life as well...
law and governance on Islamic principles but that is not the same as saying it represents Islam.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
but the facts as we know them. Anyone who is professional will not be using the classroom for conversion. In all my years in school and university (a total of 22 years) I have only ONCE had a teacher use the classroom for his political bully pulpit. I do think it's possible to monitor what is being taught and how it is being taught, so that religious history can be part of the curriculum.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
j3375 go read my last post.
see... that's the agenda seeping in...
i tend to differ on that
I remember being taught by a teacher at the ripe old age of 7 right here in Qatar that many prophets were shepherds cos they had a lot of time at hand while the sheeps are grazing to dream up 'things'
The said teacher is now heading a pyramid company in Dubai which has been banned in at least ten countries...
My view is that atheists have a very condescending manner of speaking when it comes to religion and God...
I'd rather the topic were taught by a believer than an atheist...
Yeah..whatever,PM..how can u differentiate bcos Qatar is an islamic State..n the rules are rules..thats all..Anyways who cares..to each his own..
what matters is the BOYCOTT..
"the teacher must NEVER give value judgements or lead the students to believe one is true as oppossed to the others."
"VERY VERY HARD"
Strangely enough that is why athiests often make the best teachers of Religious Education.
If one has multi faith (and all the sects wirhin faiths) students in the class the teacher CAN NOT be influenced by their own beliefs.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
i didn't get stuck with the principal... i decided against joining the school and i came back to Qatar... I was here with my dad while my mom, sis and younger brother were in India...
lol MD
Thats not the case in this part of the world where Islam as ones religion is almost mandatory. There could be a systematic degradation or plural punishment for those who does not do so by the authority.
Bravo, sandeepkadian!!
Veris looks like you got one stuck up person as your principal. Anyways I am out of here in support of the BOYCOTT movement.
" Pele good, Maradona better, George BEST"
I agree with PM, ver. you need to back away and think before posting. As it could convey you in a bad light.
pls read the comments made at 1:27, 1:32 and 1:34... make up your own minds...
We'll be a movement, troll!!
Read the whole thread. I pointed out that a Qatari professing atheism would be apostasy and a different matter.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
MD, ok.. one more hand.. BOYCOTT / GIRLCOTT .. :)
During the Kuwait war in early 90s when i was in a school in Qatar... my family was considering shifting me to India and I appeared at a Hindu school back in India... As they were explaining things to me... they said they have class on Fridays... I asked them how I could attend my prayers... I was told that,"You don't need to go in search of God, God can come in search of you"... by the principal no less... :-)
what is in your heart and your intention from Allah.
First you attacked my post of 1:27. You implied that I said it was bad that some Muslims I know can't relate to atheists as well as they can people who they believe are following the "wrong" religion". There was nothing in my post that suggested that.
Then you attacked my post of 1:43 and 1:49 (presumably) by saying that I was relating whitefeather's personal statement with all Muslims. Again, there was no implication of that in my post and I didn't even MENTION Muslims.
So reread what I wrote and and your responding attacks. And please desist from jumping to the first and worst conclusion about my posts in order to justify bad behavior.
Thank you.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
j3375 actually we were taught the history of all the religions prevalent in India in school, we were taught how the religions originated and the good teachings of every religion. They did it very objectively too without taking side of any religion.
" Pele good, Maradona better, George BEST"
j3375, all Muslims should act like the Prophet (ASWS). And when he had invaded a countery/city he would offer Islam to the people of that country/city if they were to embrace it alhamdulilah if not they would protect them as they were their own and they'd live with the Muslims in harmony. And God tell's Mohammad (SAWS) that he (the prophet (SAWS)) should do nothing to the kufar (the non believers ie. the atheists.) As he Allah, will take care of them.
veris..conversion to another faith excpt Islam..thats how it is..
Anyways i agree,Boycott religious threads as my views too are going in that direction here..PEACE.
Great, veris! Together we are strong!
veris..the communists(based on atheism) in kerala stand for elections..so dont compare the freedom of speech thats exercised in india with the protests that broke out whn it was tried to be put into the school curriculum..both are diffrernt issues..like i mentioned earlier,i dont think religion/atheism need to be taught in school,excpt like what md suggested'history o'of religions could/should be..
I agree... boycott...
veris I can't see any temple in Qatar, How is a Hindu supposed to practice his religion and a sizable number of expats coming from India are Hindus. What should they do to practice their religion?
" Pele good, Maradona better, George BEST"
By the way, let's BOYCOTT and GIRLCOTT RELIGIOUS THREADS!!
"the teacher must NEVER give value judgements or lead the students to believe one is true as oppossed to the others."
VERY VERY HARD
there is freedom in Qatar to practice religion, but you are not allowed to preach it with the intention to convert another person in to your faith...
That is what I said, however one has to explore the main tennents and practices of each faith to decern simularities and differences - the teacher must NEVER give value judgements or lead the students to believe one is true as oppossed to the others.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
agree that the history of religions should/could be taught..
Pm..there is no tolerance in Islam generally to anybody propogating any other religion other than Islam,so why the hypocrisy in your stance on atheism..if there was freedom of religion guaranteed here,then why are people who practise other faiths sent back home when they try n propogate it?..
I don't have any factual proof that anyone was discriminated against because they were an atheist. Do you? And if you do then send me the information that I can research and I will change my statement.
I do believe there is a difference between professing atheism (or another religion) in Qatar and proselytizing.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
That would be good, Whitefeather. Then they would have a choice based on solid knowledge (whatever their choice will be).
it wasn't accepted even in India...
did you see the protests I showed you...
that was just a starter...
there was another bonfire the size of a truck but I can't find it...
MD if that were done then you'd probably see more converts to Islam as when you study the big three (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) You'll see how they are the same but there is something special about Islam I'm not going to go into details as I don't want to offend anyone.
that was just my synopsis... I agreed with what whitefeather had said too... if you read my earlier comments...
PM..r u suggesting i try n test the tolerance level of the qatari govt to Atheism..i think not..cos whether it s written in the constitution or whatever,An islamic country would never tolerate it being advocated openly..esp by an expat..i'm not talking bout somebody just mentioning that they are atheist,like here on QL..
"{I have never seen anything to suggest that they would face harassment by the government and believe that religious freedom is guaranteed in the draft constitution."
PM, i would love to give an example from Qatar. But 'Public forum' :(
The "History" of religions should be taught in schools, not the religion!
You should look deeper into the government's agendas. And most people won't actually care, if a Qatari does it's then there will be problems as he is born a Muslim and you can't leave the religion as it is the greatest sin. Family wise I'm sure they wouldn't let that person announce anything as it would give "the family" a bad rep.
atheism isnt a religion..just a personal belief bout the existence of god to some people..like the saying goes'an athiest is a person with no invisible means of support'..
britexp..religion shouldnt be taught in schools..its a personal choice..what shold be taught is tolerance for other religions than your own..
I think its... interesting... actually there was a lot of controversy in my part of India over a chapter which introduced the idea of atheism to students...
But this was very politically driven...
By verisimilitude at 2009-09-04
In other words, an ex-pat professing atheism might be different from a Qatari doing the same thing. And even then, it would most likely be dependent on that Qatar's family and friends. I have never seen anything to suggest that they would face harassment by the government and believe that religious freedom is guaranteed in the draft constitution.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
When I talked about being judged I didn't mean normal people, but the governments of course. And no if you proclaim your an atheist in Qatar you will not have any problems.
the 'assumption' I was referring to was, as Ver said "that all people would believe in some God..." which is obviously incorrect.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
white feather..its very obvious that if one proclaims/propogates publicly that he's an athiest in qatar,he will have problems..dont see that happening in the US or even in India..thats freedom of speech..whther people judge you for your opinions shudnt b an issue,unless ur a hypocrite n just want people to only agree with you..not disagree..
I never said -- nor did I imply -- that whitefeather's behavior has ANYTHING to do with Muslims.
I would appreciate an apology and a cessation of the chronic harassment by you on QL.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Since when is Atheism a religion? I thought most Atheists were Atheists to be "individuals". Anyways Ver. I'm not your "typical" Muslim, for a while I lost my religion and didn't pray, nothing. Now I do everything in Islam and then some as I realized The Hour is near. Even if it were after a whole 80 years of living it is still near.
Comparitive religion is taught in Religious Education classes in the UK. The teacher can be of any religion or none - they only have to have an interest in the subject and have studied.
The aim is not to indoctrinate students into any faith and no judgement values are allowed - think of it like teaching the history of religions and ideas.
If a student wants to pursue a religion further then they would seek instruction from their parents, church, mosque, temple etc.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
the most fertile pasture for conversions has always been the deathbed...
The wol1 then they are The Losers. Who will in The Hour will hope they were dust.
I just can't.. I'll persevere a little longer...
Adey, ..
R.E should be compulsory at school. The aspects of all major religions, including Atheism should be taught. Parents should not have an opt out clause.
I am not sure what just happened... Whitefeather just swooped down on Adey... why?
Adey completely ignored Whitefeather... is there some history to this?
And PM wants to equate Whitefeather's behavior as typical of Muslims... sigh!
All athiests convert jbd (just before death) ;)
Work in a hospital and you'll see that's an everyday happening...
who would teach this course... would it be taught by an atheist, a Christain, a Muslim or a Jew?
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Adey I'm not even going to read that wall O' text. Good luck with your assumptions hope they help you out in The Hour.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
J3375 freedom of speech is a lie go do some research on it. Even in the USA it's all just a lie to get people to expose their true opinions so they can be judged by them when they think they will not. Anyways let's get back on topic.
I think it would be hypocritical if it is considered NOT OFFENSIVE at all to do something wrong just bcos it is done secretly...
The assumption stems from a lack of access to education; that is being tackled by the aforementioned judge(see full article below). I am amazed that this not already in place throughout a secular country such as Canada.
During such lessons I am sure any good educational programme would have to mention the counter arguement ie athiesm.
Being aware of differing positions and their main propositions in no way validates them - how can one argue for ones point of view if one is unaware of the the challenges to it?
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1956333
"Parents say new course threatens Christian faith"
MONTREAL -- Christian parents who objected to their children being taught about other religions in a mandatory new Quebec school course have suffered a serious setback with a ruling this week that the teachings do not infringe their religious freedoms.
Quebec Superior Court Justice Jean-Guy Dubois dismissed a bid by parents in Drummondville, Que., who said the course on ethics and religious culture introduced across the province last year was undermining their efforts to instill Christian faith in their children.
"In light of all the evidence presented, the court does not see how the ... course limits the plaintiff's freedom of conscience and of religion for the children when it provides an overall presentation of various religions without obliging the children to adhere to them," Judge Dubois wrote.
The course was controversial even before instruction began last September. During the year there were protest marches in some cities, and about 1,700 parents asked that their children be exempted from attending the class. All such requests were refused.
The course's introduction was the final step in the secularization of Quebec schooling that began with a 1997 constitutional amendment replacing denominational school boards with linguistic ones.
As of last year, parents no longer had the right to choose between courses in Catholic, Protestant or moral instruction. The new curriculum covers a broad range of world religions, with particular emphasis on Quebec's religious heritage -- Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism and aboriginal spirituality. It is taught from Grade 1 through Grade 11.
The course's scope was too broad for the parents in the Drummondville case, who cannot be named because their two minor children are involved. During the trial, the children's mother testified that she did not see why her 7-year-old son needs to learn about Islam when he is still forming his own Catholic spirituality. "It's very confusing," she said.
In his ruling, Judge Dubois cited a Catholic theologian who testified that religious instruction is primarily the responsibility of parents, not schools. He added that there is a commitment on the part of the Catholic church to understand other religions.
The Quebec government, which intervened in the case in support of the Des Chênes school board, argued that the course was objective and in no way limited parents' ability to pass their religious beliefs on to their children. Teaching children about other religions is a way to promote "equality, respect and tolerance in the Quebec school system," it said.
Sébastien Lebel-Grenier, a law professor at Université de Sherbrooke, said he is not surprised that the new course survived a challenge under the Charter of Rights.
"What parents were demanding was the right to ignorance, the right to protect their children from being exposed to the existence of other religions," he said. "This right to ignorance is certainly not protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Freedom of religion does not protect the right not to know what is going on in our universe."
He said the course is aimed not at instilling religious values but at trying "to explain to these children the diversity in which we now live in Quebec."
Richard Décarie, spokesman for a coalition opposed to the course, said the decision is a major disappointment. He believes there are grounds for an appeal, but he is not sure the parents involved can afford additional legal expenses. He said they have already spent close to $100,000 fighting the case.
"The course shouldn't be compulsory, because it changes completely how parents keep their moral authority over the education of their children," said Mr. Décarie, of the Coalition for Freedom in Education. "We're not talking about mathematics or French or English here. We're talking about something that involves the essence of the culture of people."
Two other challenges of the course are before the courts, with decisions expected this fall. Parents in Granby went to court after their children were suspended from school for failing to attend ethics and religious culture class. Montreal's Loyola High School, a private Jesuit school, has challenged the course, arguing that it obliges the school to put all religions on equal footing. The school says it already teaches world religions to its students.'
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
OK, no one will discriminate against you if you're an atheist I doubt anyone would care. Just don't go offending anyones religions and you'll be fine. Don't worry most people are tolerant here.
Ditto Brit.. His motive is to stir the topic and make it a religion bashing one and to reach 7 or 8 pages !!
white feather..there very much is something called freedom of speech..mayb not here In qatar..just that the degree to which this freedom is tolerated/exercised depends on where you live in todays world..
One could say that. And it's interesting I didn't realize I said I was an owner or a moderator of QL. :-)
Veris, that's a good explanation of what at first blush has seemed to appear as hypocrisy. Thank you.
Mandi
You asked a question and got the answers. Now , you are steering the topic into another direction..
I wonder what your real motive for the post was...
Your question is loaded...
You are already assuming that the believer has weak arguments...
Let me demonstrate by twisting your question...
It should be easy to accept someone who says he believes in god. This is pretty basic tolerance. If a believer asks an atheist: What's the difference between a god and no God?...and the atheist's answer is vague and/or nonsensical, then it's onbvious the atheist doesn't have much clue what he's really talking about, so why should he get angry/frustrated with the believer for exposing his weak arguments?
So it's really not your place to tell others to shut up. In fact, one COULD say to you: if you have nothing good to say, keep it you yourself! :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
It should be easy to accept someone who says he does not believe in god. This is pretty basic tolerance. If an atheist asks a believer: What's the difference between your god and an imaginary god?...and the believer's answer is vague and/or nonsensical, then it's onbvious the believer doesn't have much clue what he's really talking about, so why should he get angry/frustrated with the atheist for exposing his weak arguments?
Because if you have nothing good to say you keep it to yourself. And there is no such thing freedom of speech.
In Islam, it is considered less offensive to do something that is perceived to be wrong provided it is done secretly.
Because when its done in public, it tends to corrupt other people... it may seem hypocritical to some... but its practical nonetheless... if you deliberately set a wrong example to people, be ready to be made an example of...
My guess is that if a Qatari is an atheist and he goes about his life the way he pleases, he may face only marginal issues
However, if he wants to make a press statement declaring his atheism, he would probably end up in trouble...
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Adey you need to keep your wrong thoughts to yourself. If a Qatari announces he's an atheist and he'll never change his mind. Believe me he'd lose all connections to family + friends.
because then it would be considered apostasy.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
So if a Qatari comes out and tells everyone he doesn't believe in god he will face no discrimination in employment or in civic life generally?
It seems to me that freedom from religion has only recently be established in most of the Western world and in China.
In Europe I think religion is either ignored or is considered an embarrassment for most people. Nobody in Europe seems to take religion seriously when it comes to matters of social and/or political importance.
In the Muslim world however it seems to be far more difficult for people to escape from or ignore religion in their lives.
yep its incorrect...
but the assumption is incorrect.
Not at all.
Why are you always looking for problems? You really need to examine your motives here ver.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Is that a bad thing?... assuming that all people would believe in some God...
but I have been told on several occasions by Muslims that they have a hard time accepting anyone would actually believe that God doesn't exist. It's easier for them to accept the idea that people follow the "wrong" religion, than have none at all.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Can't see any issues.. Qatar is quite easygoing as long as you don't begin to preach atheism..
Shouldn't be a problem I believe. Everyone is matured enough to decide whats best for himself. And as long as the atheist dosen't engage, critize, provoke and condemmed Islam, there would be peace of existence between both believers.
my fellow employees can't believe they actually work with an atheist....it's great!!!
I don't think Qatar discriminate Atheism....as long as atheists respect its culture and beliefs..that would be fine...
Cogito...ergo, sum.....
Don't take my word for it, but I imagine it would be easier to be an atheist in Qatar, than say some other religion (besides muslim of course).
I read a lot about different religions in these forums but I would like to read more about the status of atheism and of atheists in Qatar and in the Muslim world in general.