Non-Halal meat in local restrnts & Carrefour
Dear All,
Having recently moved to Qatar from the US my wife and I were quite excited to at many levels to be in a Muslim country. As most Muslim expats would relate, the fact that we were able to eat burgers, chicken, meat in general without having to question the "Halalness" of it was great.
The doubts started to arise when we went to some of the American restaurants like Bennigans and Fuddruckers.
There in quite large print we saw some banners proudly displaying "100% USDA Beef". That sent some alarm bells ringing!! Most Muslims in America would not consider USDA certified meat to be Halal. (I do not want to get into the issues related to eating meat of the People of the Book...a whole different chapter)
At both restaurants we spoke to the managers and asked them where the meat is from. Bennigans indicated it usually came from the US but sometimes from Dubai but was adamant it was Halal. We asked to see the box for the Halal stamps. They were only able to show us for the Chicken which came from Dubai which did have the Halal stamp. We stuck to the chicken that day.
Recently at Fuddruckers, the same issues arose. THe manager was actually really nice and took us back in the freezer area to avert any fears we had. When we got to the meat boxes, the only think stamped on there was 100% USDA. NO HALAL STAMPS!!!
Having lived in the US for some time I can guarantee you the US does not have a large Halal meat export industry and if they did (some products in US supermarkets are certified Halal), then they are very proud to display the Halal stamps.
Lastly, Carrefour...if you wander the isles of frozen/packaged meat section at Carrefour, you will again find packaged meat straight from the US. Brands like "Sara Lee" and "Butterball" are common brands in US Supermarkets and again are NOT HALAL.
My question is under whose authority is this meat coming into the country. Why are they misleading Muslims into thinking ALL the meat here is Halal.
The core Islamic scholarship in Qatar I understand follows the opinion that it's OK to eat the meat in the West (from articles I have seen in the Gulf Times and Yusuf Al Qaradawi's writings) however how can they IMPOSE that opinion on the rest of the Muslim community when there is clear Ikhtilaaf (difference of opinion) on this issue.
It would be easy for them to demand that these restaurants use meat from a Muslim source (be it from Australia as they do have a Halal meat export industry) or Egypt etc. Why carry brands like Sara Lee when there are alternatives available. e.g. if you were to go to Mcdonalds in Pakistan, right there on the checkout counter is the certificate indicating the meat there is Halal and where it is coming from.
The average Muslim living here does not question or even think about the possibility of the meat not being Halal so shame on the authorities for allowing that to happen.
Thanks for letting me vent. I miss my Fuddruckers burgers!
Farhan
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Assalam u alikum :)
I read most of the comments here, and was shocked at the reactions of some :-s. Firstly learn to respect please and Islam is not about opinions or my sheikh said this and that. We have Quran ( clear guidance ) and Hadith of prophet PBUH so there is no chance to be mislead. If your sheikh or scholar or who so ever gives u info that is not matching anything , yet u will follow because he is a profound scholar?
Guidance is for everyone !- which is Quran - and Allah made it Clear and easy for us!
@Abu America- Brother respect and be respected! you are talking of religion and u cant even stand tallq comments, with this attitude even if you are right none will understand nor agree.
Sayyiduna Abu Hurayrah (radhiallahu anhu) reports that the Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “A time will come upon the people wherein a man will not bother what he intakes; whether from a halal source or haram.” (Bukhari 2059)
Rings a bell!!
Brother we check so much on electronic products, houses and other goods when we purchase and we are so easy on what we intake! why ? the above hadith cleary mentions " will not bother!!!!! "
If it was ok to eat food that wasnt slaughtered in the islamic way then why is the need to mention a hadith on it ? or verses in Quran, why ? does the quran not say -not to consume food that still has blood running in it? then why does it matter so much what your scholar says! is the word of scholar higher than the word of Allah sWT- astaghfirullah
secondly - you called yourself -oh i dont remember what was it, a hanafi or something else?? sorry for not remembering.. Brother didnt Quran says not to divide yourself into sects! so if your sheikh calls you a sunni, sheeya or etc is he following Quran, answer i leave you to think on ! Even Quran mentions it sooooooooooooooo many times, Ibrahim AS a muslim, Issa AS a muslim, Shuaib AS a muslim, Muslim muslim muslim muslim... does it mention any other name than that! so think wisely before you type as others will read and words will stand against or infavor of us in the day of judgement.
Now; i live in bahrain, here the health ministry has found foriegn products with halal label on it selling haram meat plus horsemeat in it too. So question of having a haram food with halal label is 100% possible as it is not easy to slaughter in large quantities ( in islamic way)
I dont understand , whats wrong in it to ask if the food that we are eating is halal or haram, does the label is enough to justifiy it ? ofcourse not. Here baskin robbins doesnt even have a halal label on it , mcdonalds is found serving mayonese with ML10 - pork fat, so i ask you brother, is it not still available in our regions? yes or no? even though it is haram.....
if as u say we are not to cross check, its the responsibility of the government, then why Allah has given u brains? did u know what was the first revelation? READ IN THE NAME OF LORD! now Prophet PBUH didnt know how to read, then y is Allah SWT is asking him to read! well thats not the meaning of it. it means to see, bear witness , find Allah in everything, as he has created all and none can create anything but him. ---- so he asked him to look around, think! so dear brother why are u so scared of thinking or just asking if the halal is halal or not. The article clearly says , when he went to the freezer he ddnt find the halal label on it, so who is more sensible you or him. you will blindly follow or be wise to question and think! in his place if u were; u would have eaten it and he ddnt , so who is on a safer side? u or him
Brother i wrote so much not to embarrass u or anyone Wallah ! but be reasonable brother, dont be divided into sects! look whats happening to us we cant even stand once comments , this is not what the prophet PBUH asked from his ummah!
Do learn to question, Ibrahim AS questioned and he found Allah SWT and what an amazing Prohpeht he is ! and we are simply doubting to question on halal or haram! is it not ur right to eat halal food . is it not illegal to sell haram food with halal lablel! look what is being done to our emaan, we are made to see evil ( porn or wild movies) hear evil ( music) and eat haram.. how will then we see right and wrong! dont u think we will be blinded or we are all already blinded!
I have so many hadiths and Quranic verses that i can mention it here, to prove what i am saying. Stick to the Quran brother and u wont be mislead in shah Allah :) and yes dont consume food that u have no knowledge of , better to avoid.
About consumption of haram food is only and only when it is a matter of Survival-(referring from Quran)
Adi ibn Hatim (radhiallahu anhu) said, “O Messenger of Allah, I sent out my [hunting] dog and then found with it another dog [by a dead animal], I did not know which one of them made the catch.” He replied, “Do not eat [the animal], as you mentioned the name of Allah over your dog [before releasing] but not over the other dog.” (Sahih Bukhari)
The Prophet (salallahu alaihi wasallam) said, “Avoid whatever you have doubts about in favor of what is not (doubtful).” (Tirmidhi)
Always answer question like this, with quran and authentic hadith, my sheikh and ur sheikh statements will take u no where!
Jazak Allah :)
October 12, 2010
Thank you for contacting us with your Halal and Kosher inquiry.
Unfortunately our Butterball turkey are not kosher; however, Butterball Turkeys are certified Halal but the label will not reflect so. Please locate the Butterball tag that should be attached to the yellow netting handle. The store where you purchased your Butterball Turkey may have put a store label on top of the Butterball tag. If so, please remove the store label to locate the Butterball information on the Butterball tag. If your Butterball product contains one of these "P Numbers" then they are Halal.
Please look for the following P-number on the Butterball tag:
P-8727
P-7174
P-511
P-7345
Thank you for contacting us.
Sincerely,
Shena Hopper Jones
Consumer Response Representative
Ref: Y401204
If I knowingly eat pork, Will I go to Johannum after I die ?
Is pork kosher?
Jildiath,
The people of the book were upon misguidance in the time of Muhammad and yet Allaah sent down the ayat in suratal Ma'eedah. Muhammad likewise ate from their meat and never questioned it nor asked about their method of slaughter.
The people of the book are upon misguidance today as they do not follow the sunnah of Essa. But there are no levels to being misguided. So, are the people of the book today more misguided than the people of the book then???
It is all the same... MISGUIDANCE IS MISGUIDANCE!!
They were committing acts of shirk and kufr when Allaah allowed the meat and when Muhammad ate it himself....
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
STRANGE BUT I AM WITH YOU FARHAN.PLEASE AVOID THESE TYPE OF MEATS AND CHICKEN
REGARDS,
QATAR AIRWAYS
Yes, my article is very long and I recognize and apologize for that at the beginning of the article. How to summarize the article? Above are seven (7) bullet points. Pick any one when you have the time and interest to read it. No, we did not issue a fatwa on People of the Book, but an observation.
With regards to ConAgra Halal, for the past three (3) years, there have been no USA approved turkey exports, either raw, or processed to Malaysia. This can be checked in the USDA export directory. Don't know, who is the IFCAN certifying group? But that doesn't preclude and confirm all Butterball products to be Halal, does it?
If the serious consumers in the gulf are really concerned about verification of Halal and or deception or denial, then just take time to read the above, perhaps bullet point by bullet point.
Last closing point, is there is absolutely no way so many and almost all of the so called certified products in the market can conform to even the most flexible itnerpretation of Halal and for the prodcuts in the readers refrigerator, is the Halal logo on a sticker or a part of the original label??
Be selective and eat well.
Who are the real “People of the Book”?
What determines and qualifies Halal slaughtering?
Are companies attempting compliance or shooting for profits?
Is there deception or denial?
What constitutes transformation?
What is the responsibility of the importing Governments?
Who are People of the Book?
Oh my, I'm interested in this debate but the post is too long. Could you summarise it for us, please?
I am not going to get into the fiqh of minorities or issues about eating food from the People of the Book. That is a very complicated issue. After researching a variety of opinions, we have all made our own 'sound' choices.
However, I want to clarify about the butterball packaged products from the U.S. such as the polish sausages and smoked turkey breasts, etc. If you look on the back of the package, you will find a HALAL stamp with the production and expiration date. It is a small stamp but it is usually there. I have two in my refrigerator right now!
Here is an article on the the expanding HALAL market:
33-2
One company's perspective on serving halal markets
S. A. HUSSAIN, Technical Services, ConAgra Refrigerated Prepared Foods, 2001 Butterfield Rd, Downers Grove, IL 60515
America's Muslim consumers comprise a market segment Kabir, Kathir. The size and stature of this segment is growing faster than you can down a Kuftah and a Shish Kabab. The Number of Muslims in the United States of America is growing three times faster than other minorities, with the exception of Hispanics. It is estimated by the start of the new millennium there will be more than six million Muslims in the United States of America. ConAgra Refrigerated Prepared Foods is interested in serving this Market.
At ConAgra's Butterball Turkey Plants, Halal processing procedures were originally adopted to produce Breakfast strips for the Malaysian market. When "Halal" and similar statements are used on the label, plant management is responsible for making the identity of the Islamic organization available to FSIS inspection personnel. Therefore, ConAgra works closely with the Islamic Food and Nutrition Council of America (IFANCA) to ensure that all processes met the proper food processing requirements ConAgra found it easy to follow the improved guidelines. There were similarities in adopting the HACCP and Halal procedures when the company approached them as an attitude. Halal processing procedures were developed from slaughtered turkeys by the Islamic method to the final product packaging and shipping. Standard operating procedures were modified and strengthen with the adoption of Halal processing procedures. After an inspection, IFANCA granted Halal certification to the processing facilities. In addition, IFANCA also granted product certification. ConAgra found that "going Halal" is much like HACCP a position of safety and purity which went beyond compliance with certain hygienic processing standards and a fee.
Source: http://ift.confex.com/ift/2000/techprogram/paper_2156.htm
Of course they are people of the book... but thanks for your cool "fatwa"...
A bit of advise... Maybe 2 people on this whole forum will read your whole post... It is so long that almost everybody will ignore it... You should have broken it into different posts...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
A Muslim Traveler
As a Muslim born and raised in the USA with the opportunity to have traveled to various Islamic regions and especially the Gulf region I would like to respond to the blog as follows.
Since it is Ramadan, I have given a lot of thought and concern to the following message which I’ve worked on between my travels over the last two weeks. I guess I had better stop now as this is a lengthy edition to your blog but I hope you will take time to read it. Since we are fasting it is “Academic Food” for thought and to chew on since you maybe reading it during the day while we are fasting.
Both as a consumer and having experience in the food and meat industry and working with U.S.D.A. I would like to raise some issues and comments and questions related to Fatiq’s observation of U.S.A. foods and meats that question Halal certified. Since I am familiar with the Gulf region, a friend sent me the link for this blog for my comments. I tend to concur with Fatiq’s questioning of U.S.A. Halal Certified products for the reasons which are outlined below;
Who are the real “People of the Book”?
What determines and qualifies Halal slaughtering?
Are companies attempting compliance or shooting for profits?
Is there deception or denial?
What constitutes transformation?
What is the responsibility of the importing Governments?
Who are People of the Book?
Born and raised in the United States, and especially since September 11, it has been challenging not only for Muslims, and especially our children but also confusing for many USA citizens who never perceived of Islam as a threat and really never thought about the Muslim world. There are millions of good non-Muslims in the US but the media has given such a bad image to Islam, the Muslim world and suspicion to we who are living in the USA. Who feeds this negative and degrading image?
When we talk about people of the book the Scholars quoted in this blog should explain how we determine, “People of the Book”? Who are the “People of the Book” of today that reject Islam as a religion and have cast every negative image on both our religion and Prophet (PBUH)? Can we consider non-Muslims who reject Islam as a religion and do not even recognize Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) as one of the Prophets of God “People of the Book”? So are we to believe “People of the Book” that reject our Islam and all we believe in as truly “People of the Book”? Within Christianity there is the “Holy Trinity” (The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit”), and believing that Jesus “is God” (PBUH) because they are all one in the same and without acknowledging one deity. So then who are people of the book and this is the question for the scholars and Imams who state we can share and eat from the hands of those who reject our religion? The most extremist are the so called “Evangelical Right Wing” who have major influence in not only our election process but in the media and talk shows giving the most negative and ugly images, (which I will not repeat), and haven’t you heard them or seen them yourself?
So tell me; are we to accept the USA domestic slaughter carried out without any reference of any religious acknowledgment or acceptance of God’s creation? Since there is a complete void of any religious acknowledgment of God’s creation within most of the slaughter industry what is the difference of eating domestic slaughtered beef as compared to a pagan slaughtered process? If pagans have no knowledge of God and the Prophets (PBU Them), then what is the difference between pagans, deniers and the Christians and Jews that reject Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and the revelations in the Quran and the foundation of Islam? Please help me by having the scholars and Imams in your region to answer this point and this is not with a challenge but a request of discussion.
What determines a Halal slaughter?
From what is specifically understood, Halal slaughter starts with a practicing Muslim Slaughter man of sound mind with the conscientious intent of slaughter and thereby stating the Neeyah which we understand to be the intent to slaughter with recognition that Allah has created an animal with a soul which is to be slaughtered in the name of God and at the same time thanking Allah for providing nutrition and sustenance for mankind.
So if the first criteria of Halal slaughter is for a Muslim to be the slaughter man, then how is it that this can be interchanged with workers off the street who have no knowledge of Islam, and quite often do not even profess to belong to any particular religious group themselves and have no knowledge, or very little knowledge of Islam and the ritual of Halal slaughter? So when you have factory workers that do not even regularly attend their own church how would you consider them “People of the Book” when they do not even recognize or participate in their own religious structure? According to statistics, unfortunately more than 60% of the USA populous today does not specifically adhere to any religious principles or membership, so are they “People of the Book” to be performing our slaughter?
When it comes to kosher slaughter which the cutting is similar to the Halal cutting but the Rabbi’s do not say any prayer before cutting and definitely do not acknowledge Islam. This is a fact in the USA beef industry by the fact that the Rabbi’s WILL NEVER ACCEPT HALAL MEAT AS KOSHER. Yet why do we not question why kosher can be Halal but Halal CAN NOT be Kosher?
The Kosher process involves a number of inspections which are above and beyond USDA approval based on various Rabbi’s interpretation as to what can be certified Kosher or not. For those that are not aware in the kosher meat law only the front quarter of the beef is consumable and the hind quarter and mid-loin cuts are not for kosher acceptance or consumption. Often these cuts are what the kosher industry wants to distribute and sell off to the Halal market yet at the same time rejecting Halal as a recognized slaughter process. Secondly any animal that the Rabbi’s reject based on kosher standards but still healthy and USDA approved they sell off as “Trafe” so why is their rejected and unusable beef good enough for Muslim consumers when we have the option to produce our own Halal meats and poultry?
It is interesting that one of the largest kosher veal producers located in New York named Atlantic Veal and Lamb of Brooklyn, sells their kosher reject veal to one of the largest meat importers in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and the Halal certificates come from an office in Canada. Isn’t it interesting how a large Jewish kosher veal producer can cry prejudice against the Arabs yet sell off their unwanted veal to the upper consumer market to the Kingdom? Veal is not a low end meat product for the “Souk Market”, and they are proud to let others know where their excess veal is going and still damn the Arabs and Muslim fundamentalists for their teachings in the Madrasa’s in the Kingdom.
Are we the “dumping table” and outlet for “Trafe” unwanted and discarded kosher meats while they profit from the false Halal Certification just to take up their unwanted meat production? Are these “People of the Book” who reject our religion, our Prophet (PBUH), and our slaughter yet we are to accept them? Again please have your scholars help me clarify this contradicting and confusing issue.
Are companies attempting compliance or shooting for profits?
There are many international companies like McDonalds and KFC that have global investments throughout the world including Islamic countries. From my travels; from Indonesia to the Middle East I believe these are two international companies who try very hard and are meeting Halal compliance; and I’m not affiliated with either except as a concerned and observant consumer.
But then you have companies like TGI Fridays, Chili’s, Applebee’s, and Fuddruckers to name a few that have only a few international restaurants that are very profitable, mainly in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the Gulf. Does anybody really believe that all of the USA specialty chicken items and USA Beef going to these few restaurants from the USA which is required by their franchise standards to be USA origin is Halal? Do you really believe that there is a special Halal production run for the Boneless Buffalo Chicken wings and other chicken items just for these 20 some stores in the Middle East compared to the couple of thousand USA outlets. They can care so much that their chocolate cake, cheese cake, or malten cake is to exact specifications at 3.5 inches high and beautifully served but the meat can be purchased and presented with just a paper certificate? Perhaps it is because there is big land available in the region unlike land locked Hong Kong or Singapore to develop a big family concept restaurant. Like in the Middle East where as a McDonalds and KFC can build smaller stores and with a thousand units globally they respect their name and the consumers demand and make every effort to do things right regardless of the country, religion or culture.
Believe me as a USA Muslim consumer no way, is there enough Halal beef production in the USA to fulfill the platters of these restaurants in the Gulf region.
Unfortunately most of these companies are more concerned about their franchise standards, the correct desert and the appeal of their restaurant rather than the respect of the consumer. There is no question that it would take a bit more work for these family restaurants to tell their USA suppliers to change the ingredient of a cheese cake by taking out the pork gelatin for 10 or 15 stores in the Gulf region as opposed to thousands of restaurants in the USA. If you have a thousand restaurants in the USA and less than 20 in the Middle East are you really going to tell your salad dressing supplier or your deserts provider or your meat producer to change their method and formulation for a hand full of restaurants in the Muslim markets, especially with the negative image the media has created; the region of terror, war, and chaos? So let those “Moslems” eat what is our standard franchise menu as long as we can get a piece of paper to say it is Halal. Why should we change just for them?
Deception and/or Denial?
When our USA new resident to Qatar, Fatiq, asked an important question, why are there so many Halal identified USA products in the Gulf that could not be found in the USA, he is absolutely correct! There are many very good reputable USA companies wanting to do business in the entire region but are not sure how to get past export regulations, export consolidation, dates and codes and in some cases Arabic translation. So they just turn their exports over to companies or individuals that can get their product half way around the world. The problem arises when a manufacturer knows their product is not compliant to Halal standards but take the position that they are not exporting it, they are only selling it at their dock. Do they just want the sale and profits while denying responsibility to consumer compliance?
Do you as consumers not feel cheated and lied to and deceived unknowingly to you when product is designated as Halal but it is not produced and manufactured as Halal from the onset?
And then there is denial on the part of importers when they know a product is not produced under Halal standards in the USA but state they have the “Certification” and paperwork to import it, so therefore it is not their responsibility and their denial becomes the consumer’s deception. How do you justify being deceived just because everything tastes so good and looks so clean and nice when, with a little extra work and commitment to the industry and respect to the consumers for the profits being made? There could be Halal compliance?
It is not for me to say what you should or should not eat. But don’t you think you have the right not to be deceived by exporters and purchasing managers in your region that deny knowledge of what they are purporting? There are many good and respectable food operators and managers throughout the region. But then we must admit that most of the key top management are ex-pat foreigners and Islam is not their religion. Therefore if they get a piece of paper from an exporter that says “Halal Certified” there is nothing on their shoulders or mind as it is not their religion but only their responsibility to meet franchise profiles, guidelines and quotas. Denial of what they are serving to their consumer is not on their mind.
What is one way you can tell USA products are meeting Halal standards? Within the USA industry food labeling is highly regulated by USDA and FDA. There are some USA companies meeting Halal standards and guidelines. On their products you will find a Halal logo or Halal certifiers identity incorporated into the main label as a part of the integrity of the label which has to be approved by the official US Government agency and/or inspectors overseeing the production. Therefore, if a food, meat or poultry label is identified as Halal at the production point it must meet Government compliance and also Halal compliance. A U.S.D.A. inspector will not allow a product to be labeled other than what it actually is. To give a specific example you will see in some of the markets which I have seen Butterball Turkey strips which actually contain, as noted in the ingredient, “Natural Flavoring” which is actually flavoring derived from pork bacon fat. Then you have Jones Beef Bacon which is in a very nice green package with Arabic labeling but no Halal identification. The Jones Company of Wisconsin does not produce Halal under their Label, they do not sell it or purport it to be Halal but have worked with the exporter for an Islamic green colored label with Arabic graphics to appeal to the consumer in the region, but then the exporter under One Source can get it Halal certified and distributed throughout the region. Another clear example in the Gulf is; Rastelli’s Turkey bacon breakfast strips. It is in a nice blue package with Arabic writing which makes it appear as a Halal international product6 but never mentions Halal or Islamically processed. There is a Cresent and star on the back and this is supposed to authenticate it as Halal and as Islamic symbol. Are they making fun as us as muslim consumers or are they really culturally stupid?
What constitutes transformation?
This is true and not a joke; at one time I was having a discussion about kosher and Halal. The manager of a major company asked if we had something like, “Flying Rabbi’s for kosher certification”? I asked him what he meant; he replied the Rabbi flies in, goes into his office and flies out and everything is then kosher certified. Another unfortunate example is a poultry company told me that they brought in a “Certifier” that went out to the loading docks and walked between the loads of chicken waiving his hands and blessing all of the chickens to be slaughtered. This is not to be funny or make fun of any religious leaders but it reminds me of the Pope on the balcony in Rome giving blessings to all below. But we all know that in the meat and poultry industry, Halal has to do with the slaughter besides the Neeyah.
Is there such a thing as “In Transit Transformation” Fatwa? Can somebody or anybody declare a Fatwa making product Halal while it is in shipping transit? Is this a silly question? And no I’m not making fun of Fatwa’s!
How is it that product leaves US plants and docks and seaports as non-Halal product and by the time it reaches the Gulf it enters the county as “Halal Certified”? Is their some sort of “Onboard Blessing” or a transformation process that has yet to be explained to the Muslim consumers? As brother Fatiq stated, he has found so many Halal certified products that we cannot find in the USA. Hey! We as USA Muslim consumer are good spenders, educated and affluent. Can you imagine Healthy Choice, Sara Lee, Butterball Turkey’s, Oscar Meyer, Jennie-O, Norbest Turkeys, Certified Black Angus Beef - (CAB) Beef and so many more that would not tap into our domestic market to fill the Halal void if they can do it for the international market?
Here is an exact reply from Butterball consumer office which any of you can contact by email or by their 800 #.
June 2, 2008
Dear Consumer,
Thank you for contacting us regarding our products. Unfortunately, none of our products are certified as Halal. We apologize for the inconvenience.
Sincerely,
Evelyn Rodriguez
Consumer Response Representative
Ref: N314235
When it comes to what is supposed to be the best steak I would love to walk into one of the fines steak houses here in Washington D.C., Kansas City, Denver or Seattle to the famous Steward Anderson Angus Steak Houses and have a good Halal Black Angus Steak. Not to be found in the USA. About the only place to get a good authentic Halal steak in the USA is from an Iowa state Midamar Halal company.
Do you really think it is profitable and efficient from production stand point to produce small orders going to the various GCC markets with different code dates and labeling dates and they cannot even put it in our shelf in Washington D.C., Atlanta, or Los Angeles? Do you know how many tens’ of thousands Muslim consumers in these three cities plus Chicago and Detroit that would love to go to a Halal TGI Friday, Applebee’s, or Chili’s and eat something other than Salmon, fish or pasta? So where is the Halal Angus in the US that is so well promoted in the Gulf? Come on Sara Lee, Cargill and Butterball; the end of Ramadan and Thanksgiving will shortly be upon us. Can you serve up your Halal products to be available to us during the next 6 weeks? If not maybe some of you consumers in Doha who have good intentions or are in a state of denial can send a Ramadan basket of USA Halal certified products from your market back to us to enjoy here when we can not find it in our own supermarkets? For those that think I’m being too cynical; lighten up and think about it, how can you have all of these delicious USA products available to you which are denied to us here in the USA? Isn’t Ramadan the month of sharing? Just remember now when you are ready to send us Ramadan USA Halal certified food baskets, make sure you have the right Re-Export Certificates and especially a verified Halal certificate notarized and stamped and without much detail as to the plant or origin or specifics regarding the type and quantity of product but it must have a bold header stating HALAL CERTIFIED!
What is the responsibility of the importing Governments?
One of the readers in this blog stated; if it is Halal then it must be authentic because the government approved it.
Why is it that the importing authorities within the region are so strict on the smallest Arabic translation? Haven’t you heard of entire shipments being rejected or being condemned because of what is very clearly a clerical typographical error? Or perhaps a date inverted on a product with a clarification as to how it got converted and very clearly a small clerical error, but NO it is rejected and condemned. The USA standard for date coding is month/ day/ year much of the international standard is day/ month/ year. This can lead to a small error sometimes but yet there is no tolerance for correction and product is rejected. Yet a very vague Halal certificate is virtually unquestioned.
Then there is supposed to be the GCC standards yet one country requires for example the month “May” to be spelled out and another country will not accept “May” but must be identified as month “5”.
With all do respect to our Islamic Scholars and Imams for most of them and it is not their field and they cannot know everything, but few have food and meat production knowledge or experience. Malaysia is the leader in the world for establishing clearly written guidelines for Halal. Sometimes Muslim visitors to Indonesia or Malaysia don’t understand why so many products are Halal certified correctly? What are Halal pasta or Halal jellies and Jams? Well the point is, historically food production, control and distribution in South East Asia was mostly and still controlled by European companies or ethnic Chinese. The identification of Halal signified that there were no ingredients to make the product Haram. So these countries are not Halal fanatics they are consumer conscious and have respect for the market without deception or denial. Please keep in mind historically there were only two natural cooking oils which are olive oil and palm oil and only recently in the last few decades do we have corn and soybean oil. Therefore most industries in the past used animal fats, grease and pork lard so the Muslim region in S.E. Asia wanted to protect their consumers from Haram ingredients. In the last 20 years the Middle East has grown to be import dependent on processed food items and therefore in the past most consumers ate traditional foods and Halal was not an issue.
What is the responsibility of each and every government?
Yes open trade and providing consumers a choice with free trade and opportunity is important in today’s global economy. But why is it USA companies can build their restaurants half way around the world with every material and detailed décor and then abuse the consumers rights and/ or beliefs based on their local or cultural or religious compliance and ignored by the international investor?
If Governments are going to put production dates, translation accuracy and pieces of paper above Halal verification, then why not just remove the Halal import requirement? Then pork and alcohol can be restricted and the market can be opened up to a free game? Then consumer would then have to sort out what is Halal and what is deception.
Why is it that companies like Naïf poultry and restaurant group of Kuwait, or Al-Islami Group of U.A.E. or Al-Baik or Herfy Food Group of Saudi Arabia, who are all local companies that can grow with local management, provide quality affordable meals and be honest with their customers and consumers and the same is not expected from the international concepts?
The Governments responsibility is to the consumer to live securely which means healthy, clean food, and in sufficient quantity and with an auditing process that also weeds out deception and denial. How does one answer the purchasing manager in Kuwait who states; I know the USA Beef is not Halal and is from the franchise normal inventories but when I get a certificate that it is Halal certified it is good enough for the import authorities to clear my shipment so that when I serve it at my Fridays on Friday it is the customers choice as to what they want to select from the menu and the same goes for more than one Fuddruckers in the entire region that I have traveled and visited.
We don’t want to ruin anyone’s eating habits or deny the prosperity to the region but why should there be profits from deception and denial when you / the consumer are paying the price?
I am proud to be a Muslim from the USA. So would you rather have Muslims that have insight to the industry be open and honest or support the deception? Whether you agree or disagree with my comments above they are not written with prejudice or a criticism of the USA food industry but a focus what can and should be improved for both the franchise companies and the consumers that are supporting and building the profits that support so many jobs and the franchise to the satisfaction expectation of we the paying consumers.
"I have attempted to verify the slaughter by other Halal groups but they refuse to let me wittness their procedure."
What is the Islamic position towards 'verifying' meat?
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
ASalaam wa Alaikum wtb.
Ramadan Mubarak to all of you may Allah accept our fasting and zakat InshAllah.
In response to all your replies I would like to provide you all with expert insight and clarification to Halal meat from the U.S.A. and the fatwa's issued relating to the Ahla Kitab or (People of the Book).
I represent the most experienced and knowledgable Halal serivces provider in the United States and North America and have been in the Halal food business for over 20 years. (Hopefully this gives some credibility to my upcoming statements & clarification)
With all do respect to the scholars who know far more about Islam than I do they are not necessarily qualified to issue a fatwa on these matters because of their lack of knowledge in the food and processig industry and heres why.
Al-Quran says we are forbiden from eating dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and any name other than Allah has been invoked.
Although there are many Halal certifiers in the U.S. and North America there are only a couple with credible international recognition for performing authentic Halal slaughter under U.S.D.A. supervision. I have literally heard govt. officials from arab/ Muslim countries who will remain nameless say; "We know XYZ organization is not producing true Halal, but we have Millions of people to feed, what do you want us to do? As long as XYZ is providing a Halal certificate declaring it Halal then the ownness is upon him as it is his responsibility."
Furthermore in the U.S.A. Ahla Kitab is not valid as the only ones performing dhabih (slaughter) under U.S.D.A. supervision is our organization and a few of the Kosher groups and that is all! I have attempted to verify the slaughter by other Halal groups but they refuse to let me wittness their procedure. I'm sure there is authentic Halal being performed in the U.S.A. but I have not been able to verify anyone elses other than ours and a few of the kosher groups; however the Kosher groups method of slaughter are not always consistant with Halal.
If cattle is not slaughtered by our oprganization or kosher it is killed via captive bolt; Captive bolt is like a gun that shoots a 4-6 inch steel rod into the skull of the animal, they then hoist it into the air and allow it to die via brain hemmorage (as a result this is considered dead meat). Then the animal has it's hide split lengthwise down the animal as the personnel proceed to cut either the thorasic artery or aorta and let the blood drain via gravity. Ask any scholar is this Halal? I will challenge anyone that says it is as this would also be classified as blugeoning.
If you are in the desert, starving and the only thing to eat is swine, as Muslims we can eat it but only to sustain our hunger and not to gorge upon it. This provision from Allah does not mean that it is Halal but rather permissible likewise Ahla Kitab is not Halal but permissable when Halal is not available.
Why is captive bolt killing the preferred method of Beef production by companies such as Tyson's, Excell, National, Swift etc. just to name a few? Because of eonomics. These plants process 2500-3500 head of cattle each day or per production shift. What is especially significant about this number is that if a cow is killed via captive bolt vs. Halal or kosher slaughter it leaves a minimum of 1 gallon of blood in the animal.
Lets do a little math; If a gallon of blood weighs 10 lbs and your company kills 3,000 head per day, 5 times per week and 52 weeks per year (10 x 3,000 x 5 x 52) it equates to 7,800,000 lbs of blood left inside the meat over the course of 1 year. Now if these companies are getting an average of $3.00 per lb for their beef factoring tenderloin, ribeye, chucks, sirloin, trimmings etc.; the beef companies collect $23,400,000.oo for blood that you as the consumer pay for. This blood is our other prohibition from Allah, and I'm more than sure that the Ulema, Mufti, Sheiks & Imams around the world have no idea about what I've just explained.
Please understand that I do not wish to hurt or insult anyone but rather to enlighten and educate you as it is our Islamic obligation to change that which is wrong or injust.
If any of you would like further insight or clarification please feel free to email me or reply to this post.
Jazak Allahu Khairun!
Abu American
I think you need to back up a bit and look at what you have written in the past and now. In your post about Amjad made it plainly clear that he was on a pedestal with regards to the scholars feeling over him. And when I criticised the brother who gives talks all around the world for not sorting out his own back yard and bad manners you did not like to hear this. Something that needs to be known if we are to listen and ask the brother advice considering he is giving lectures all over the world and has access to the scholars including translating their books!
Now you say that I have made a fatwa. No I have stated that their is a difference of opinion on this matter. I have never supported any misguided scholars in that nor have I supported fatiq or anyone else in the process. Rather I have stated my own concerns with fatwas that are not properly explained and hardly make sense. The fatwas are not well rounded nor do they explain the situation clearly!
It is common to use certain statements of Allah and hadith to prove a persons point. Many scholars have been known to do this with other scholars contesting their conclusion saying that they are leaving other well known and authentic hadith out of the whole picture. Wearing the niqab is a very good example of this type of extremism.
Last but not least this distancing problem is one of the reasons I cannot take salafis seriously anymore. And why I demand a multitude of proof and evidence to support their claims. As they have proven to me to be judgemental and leave the people easily for no reason other then a simple statement! They do not try to correct the person if they are wrong in a good way and they tend to listen to gossip and judge too fast. Particularly ones such as yourself who do little to provide clear well rounded evidence.
I find it strange that it has only been on this website that I have ever said anything to upset a salafi before and yet they have distanced themselves from me for a number of years without knowing me or ever talking to me! Distancing themselves from my husband without ever letting us know their reasons which I highly suspect is due to gheebah from a brother who is not what your group may think he is. It is funny that after all that my husband and I are dubious of any fatwas from your circle and yet we are still here striving not to mix with any other misguided people in terms of religious knowledge.
If I have made mistakes then they are from me and if I am right then they are from Allah. May Allah distance you from the people you distance yourself from and grant us better more pious friends who will strengthen our eeman and guide us both to the right path so we may both see each other in jannah. InshAllah alahumma ameen.
TAke care Abu American
Asalaamu Alaikum rahmantullah wa barakatahu
Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi
haha..my bad Merry...of course Shkh Albanee (Raheemahu Allah) was not Saudi. He actually spent most of his life in Jordan. I meant he follows the same school of thought as the other Ulema you mentioned who are Saudi.
I hear you as to why should one investigate. I guess it really depends on the individual. If one is comfortable with leaving it up to the government and the sin is on them approach, that is perfectly fine and I was trying to do that too.
Unfortunately, it was too blatant and in my face to ignore, believe me I wanted to! Insh'Allah it will clear up and I'll be happy to be proven wrong so I can go back to Fuddruckers! ...although I think I will pass on the the Sara Lee and Butterball meat.
Sorry but Alexa consumed all. She was very sick
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Of course, it's possible that the packaged meat stuff you get in Carrefour (boxed and frozen stuff) may have come from their European depots and what not, so I'm not sure if that would be halal.
Asalaam Alaikum
Abu American what you have said was rude and horribly wrong. May Allah forgive you inshAllah ameen.
I know who the scholars are very well! In fact after our last conversation I had a chance to talk to another salafi who is the cousin of Amjad rafiq. And I told him of your thoughts about the brother i.e. that he was knowledgable. And his cousin was very straightforward in saying that Abu Iyaad amjad rafiq is nothing more than a translator of books. I then told him how people raised him to a pedestal and I assure you he was quite shocked at that revelation!
I know the sheikhs very well may Allah have mercy upon them and continue to guide them and us. I have read their work and many many fatwas as well as meeting many in person and studying under them. However one thing that has bothered me is that they lack proper explanations these days. Including one fatwa by sheikh ibn baaz about a father marrying his daughter off before the age of puberty without her permission! This fatwa used to be on fatwa online however it has since been taken off and it is a widely held belief by many of the scholars due to the marriage of Aisha to the Prophet in which her permission was not sought.
A very dangerous fatwa to post on the internet or anywhere else now don't you think. No explanation just this is what we say and therefore you must follow us.
Also another problem that we have noticed is the translation from Arabic to english is often wrong by people who do not fully understand the language. I find it interesting that some translators have learned arabic at home whilst living in the west!
At the end of the day a fatwa is an opinion only! Allah will not ask them on the judgement day how we practiced our religion. He will ask us why we followed them when we had clear proof otherwise and they did not clarify themselves enough or make enough sense. How many stories of students of a particular sheikh disagreed with his/her fatwa?
Their are problems all over the muslim ummah and if we as salafis cannot look at our own then how will we ever overcome them? Their is no need repeating myself as you know through my writing and explaining myself who I am and what I am upon. May Allah forgive you brother and make it easy upon you. InshAllah Ameen.
Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi
And Shaykh Al Albaanee was not Saudi nor did he live there very long...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
Oh come on bro... A little sarcasm never hurt anybody!
Fatiq... I guess my point is who are you to 'investigate"?
I do not mean that rudely. But dude you are living in a Muslim country with Muslim rulers... khalas... Particulary with the link Talig posted...
As a Muslim I give the benefit of the doubt, particularly to the emir. Why would you suppose that the government would allow meat that is not slaughtered in an Islamic manner to enter the country?
I find it odd that you see USDA and kind of run for the hills... unless you are afraid of MAD COW disease that is.... =)
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
I'm going to rest my case on this one until further investigation with the powers to be. Thanks to all for their feedback and info. If I find anything worth reporting will let you all know.
fatiq - the link I sent you says that ALL meat exported from the US to Qatar must be halal.
Hey what's with the sarcasm Merry!
The use of a different process or technology to for the benefit of the Deen is encouraged as far as I know.
I certainly don't want to get into the my scholar is better than yours argument, but let's just say the Ulema you mentioned(May Allah be pleased with them all) are all from Saudi, and the Islamic scholarship realm Alhumdullillah is much wider than that. Many scholars of the 20th/21st Centuries from the Sham, Africa, Sub continent, Yemen S.E Asia have major disagreements with many stands taken by the Ulema you mentioned. Each has their evidences and arguments. So how does one go about evaluating things? At the end of the day it's down to the Taqwa of the individual and whom you trust. We have to respect each other's opinion if they are indeed coming from a valid source and basis.
On your question:
"Do foreigners - non muslims not have the right to have the meat they want to???"
Sure..but majority of the people shopping at these stores are Muslims. I can guarantee you most Desis would flip out if they knew that the meat here was "Jhatka" meat as they say! (literally shock meat where animal is killed by electrocution)
At least label it.
e.g. if you go to Dubai, Jordan or Egypt and they have the Pork and alcohol items marked very clearly on the menus.
KH Where are the pork dumplings?? I was sleeping!! LOL
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I know Fatiq b/c when the companions made the first hijrah to Ethopia which was a Christian land they surely went around looking for stamps on the meat....
I am not aware of the individual who wrote about this issue that you posted but bro he is going against the likes of bin baz, al-Uthaymeen, and al-Albaanee on this issue... to mention a few from amongst the 'ulemaa of the 20th and 21st century.
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
although I'd say yours was the minority opinion :)
Merry...My assumption was that it is all halaal until I saw some red flags. The link Talig sent merely says that if the meat has a Halal stamp on it then it should be truly Halal and certified by a Islamic body in the US. Great!
Sorry to paste big chunks of it here but perhaps it may help:
# Ritual Slaughter - Islamic Slaughter Certification. A certificate of Islamic (Halal) Slaughter is required. Exporters may obtain a Certificate of Islamic Slaughter from a member of an Islamic Center or Islamic organization. A certificate of Islamic Slaughter is a certificate issued by a member of a Moslem organization recognized by the importing country to provide this service; the certificate states that animals were slaughtered according to Moslem religious requirements. This certificate must accompany products labeled "Halal" . The certificate must be endorsed by the Arabian-American Chamber of Commerce and by the Qatar Consul and must accompany all shipments. The telephone numbers of the Arabian-American Chambers of Commerce are listed below.
It does not say all the meat and products entering the country are Halaal stamped and certified. Just like many in the forum have already pointed out, we have many products that are straight up from US supermarkets, e.g. Sara Lee meat, several meat spaghetti sauces which many Muslims in the US will not buy. Now just cause that same spaghetti sauce is here in Qatar does not make it Halal.
Your point about the Brazil Halal meat industry is the same as Australian Halal meat. The source is not the issue but the process followed to slaughter etc. is.
The US does not have a Halal meat industry (to my knowledge) else Muslims living there would be using it which they are not.
Thanks eco-savvy...please also look at this..
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=2492&CATE=127
Yea, but the Shias obviously think otherwise!
---Life is Fragile, Handle With Prayer---
hehe just being a prat....
maybe its long forgotten, but someone asked about halal fish. it seems that the shia sect only eat fish with scales. so thts y some fish are labelled as halal.
---Life is Fragile, Handle With Prayer---
I'm sure it all tastes the same anyway.......do you get halal pork products?
Really strange stuff moving to a Muslim country and questioning whether or not the meat they import is halal...
Talig, you are the man... I wish people who post their doubts could research the issue very simply as you have done...
Why is it impossible to think that b/c it says USDA it is not slaughtered in an Islamic fashion?
I just read yesterday in the Pennisula I think that the majority of 'halal' meat comes from Brasil....
Kind of blows the whole argument out of the water...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
I will rush and will not let you wait :)
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you are having me feel guilty and helpless. Need to travel to Beirut to get the dumplings then. This will take time. Have to apply for leave, get exit permit, find a seat to Beirut, try all dumplings available there to get you the creme of the creme, then get back here.
Can you wait?
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Here is the roadmap:
First, you need to qualify for the prescribtion. I take your word for that purpose,
Second, demonstarate your ability to prepare the dumplings at home. This requires preparing sufficient quantity to satisfy the appetite of 5 persons. They should certify that in writing,
Third, once you pass the first two steps, you will get the prescribtion for the pork dumplings.
Bonne Appetite.
Here is the recipe. You can try it with New Zealand veal tenderloin. Then you can upgrade to Pork:
INGREDIENTS (Nutrition)
100 (3.5 inch square) wonton wrappers
1 3/4 pounds ground pork
1 tablespoon minced fresh ginger root
4 cloves garlic, minced
2 tablespoons thinly sliced green onion
4 tablespoons soy sauce
3 tablespoons sesame oil
1 egg, beaten
5 cups finely shredded Chinese cabbage
DIRECTIONS
In a large bowl, combine the pork, ginger, garlic, green onion, soy sauce, sesame oil, egg and cabbage. Stir until well mixed.
Place 1 heaping teaspoon of pork filling onto each wonton skin. Moisten edges with water and fold edges over to form a triangle shape. Roll edges slightly to seal in filling. Set dumplings aside on a lightly floured surface until ready to cook.
To Cook: Steam dumplings in a covered bamboo or metal steamer for about 15 to 20 minutes. Serve immediately
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you are having us feel guilty. better hijack the thread towards something that eliminates your appetite
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You keep a rubber tree in your wallet - hmm how handy. lol
need your fax number to send the prescribtion
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Did not know that rubber is a tree ;P
Usually rubber is used to refer to something kept inside the wallet or the pocket :D
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Well no I am confused as you said halal serviettes, well I don't know if you know but some paper articles are made from old rags. What if these old rage were worn but Christians, what doe this make the serviette.
Some trees get blessed but will that make them any better?? lol lol
Actually I did efer to the rubber trees????
KH I had my lunch already.. but I'm still hungry.. :(
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Thought you are not feeling well. if pork dumplings are the cure, then we can ask for medical prescribtion:)
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seems you did not have your lunch yet. I can hear your stomach canaries singing:)
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How are you dear?
Now you have confused me. DO you mean to say that there are Halal Christmas trees?
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Pork dumplings go down........ mmmmmmmmmmmmm
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guys halal is a religious issue, please don't make fun out of it...and as someone said, It is amazing how complicated life can be! and that too over food??? I have said the same thing back in Canada and say it here too, when in doubt and it clashes with your beleifes, just avoid it, better be safe than sorry. I myself did not pick up some of the stuff in supermarkets here because in my eyes it wasnt zabiha halaal and found many other products that were. Oh and it is always better to also do your own research as few of my canadian christian friends have told me of times when they were served pork in dumplings in a local chinese resturant and one of my freind was informed by a friday employee that one of the drinks had alcohol. So in my opinion avoid when in doubt and if you eat/drink haraam un knowingly, inshallah we wont be accounted for it since the responsibility falls on the muslim gov.
Coca-Cola drinks, Starbucks cafe, bristle used to spread seasoning for grilled meat, paint brush, etc...
There must be something in that as they are forbiddenon Valentines Day in KSE lol lol.
KellysHeroes hi there
I just had to laugh when you came up with your comment halal condomes - then there must be halal rubber trees somewhere lol.
I completely disagree that the government can be blamed in any way, everyone is resposible for their own grocery/meat/vegetable shopping, and some stores do actually cater for foreigners who want to eat a butterball turkey at Thanksgiving and Christmas and I am sure that they will have permission to do so.
Do foreigners - non muslims not have the right to have the meat they want to???
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/52800/Can%20we%20eat%20non%20halal%20meat
awwwww shucks kellys, thanks...:) :) :)
"Quit hanging on to the handrails . . . Let go. Surrender. Go for the ride of your life. Do it every day." Melody Beattie
But who dares to attack such a sweet baby. Am waiting and watching.
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so means Red Rose is not halal every one use that for flirting.
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Kellys you would be the perfect agony uncle. I would write to you every day :)... Now lemme run off before the thread owner attacks me for hijacking, Im in enough trouble as it is. :)
"Quit hanging on to the handrails . . . Let go. Surrender. Go for the ride of your life. Do it every day." Melody Beattie
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...and make sure it is halal ....lol
Will step away to give you a hijack round here :D
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sick who you or Kelly
aww wait wait me will come with some Nurses and a basket full of injections
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KH stop Hijacking ok :D
and Alexa how is your nose now do you need one more punch
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it is up to us to make it simple or complicated
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Good morning babe.
Am afraid I should start a new program or forum: "Ask Kelly"
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I prefer cinnamon rolls.
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Thank you for that comment. I am an American Muslim too...and I have said the same thing. Why do we try to make Islam harder than it should be...harder than Allah says? I totally agree. I think its because sometimes...since we are living in America and there is a relatively small population of Muslims..(accept for the large metropolitain areas)we sometimes doubt that we are being "Muslim enough". So, we tend to "over do it". Also, many are converts, and they feel they need to do everything "extra perfect". Its all with good "intentions"...but sometimes is "way over the top". I've be here working and living in Qatar for 3 years...and in that respect its nice to be able to relax and be a muslim. I'm just happy I don't have to worry about any pork products in any of the food....so enjoy the food and...bon appetite!!!
okay KH, cinnamon it is :P
LOL at KH!!
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but perfumes are Haram. They contain alcohol. The first time this issue came up when I was at school and it was a chemistry class. someone raised the question that "what can we use instead of surgical spirit" to clean the wound and skin scratches. I was surprised to hear that and was not aware of it. So the teacher suggested using cinnamon
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kellys thanks for that info because I never really understood what "halal meat" etc meant.
Kellys-the slayer of ignorance :)
"Quit hanging on to the handrails . . . Let go. Surrender. Go for the ride of your life. Do it every day." Melody Beattie
wow Kelly, very disrespectful....
I will have a look at that section in supermarkets which I usually avoid:( to check if they have Halal condoms :D
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Ohh, as for the acetone thing..... Acetone is not haram, halal nail polish simply means the nail polish can be washed off with water and soap, or peeled off so that women can wash for prayer. I don't know about anyone else but I don't carry a bottle of acetone around with me.
The easiest thing. DOnot invite any Muslims. They guys are confusing you.
Here is the definition or requirements to have Halal meat.
To Muslims, Halal meat should be slaughtered by a believer (Muslim, Christian, Jew).
For a Muslim to slay the animal, should use a very sharp knife, say "In the name of God", and then make sure to cut properly the neck veins or arteries (whatever) in one go. animal blood should drain properly.
The issue of Halal started when some farms started using the method of electric shock or something like that based on some Animal right groups that were considering using the knife is brutal or "in-human" whatever.
But again I insist. Until the 80s of last century, this Halal issue was not there and we were only concerned about avoiding pork.
Seems some like to complicate the issues. Making religions and cultural/human relations such a complexity.
What if you have never been to a Muslim country and never heard about Halal, and you invite some Muslim friends. Then you will never know about this issue at all.
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Forget about the fresh meats, what about the Chef Boyardee meat raviolis, canned soups, chilis etc. I never eat such things in Canada and to be honest never gave it much thought here until my last trip home.
There is definatly meat here that is not Halal, but if in doubt don't eat it, very simple. Religion is a personal choice and with choosing to practise you are also choosing to sacrifice some things. Inshallah you will be rewarded for your "suffering".... this kind of makes me laugh because it is only a hamburger... how much suffering can it really cause if you cant eat it? Go make one at home.
lol KH, me too, since when was fish halal or haram. Even with acetone, perfurmes etc with alcohol in them, its not like you are drinking them, its a bit too much..
KH:. A whole lot of B S.. I think it's a marketing strategy for some. Before we know it, pens, underwear, toiletries etc would have to be labeled "Halal".
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me just like to disagree with you only :D
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This is the first time I hear about Halal fish being a must for some sects
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You must disagree with the ppl who wrote that, not with me wolfie.
I was surprised like you. Seems just B S
You can use corrector to remove it or a rough stone
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You will have some very upset guests if they found out you gave them something you weren't supposed to.
Ask them which opinion they follow. I can give you a general rule of thumb...if they are from the subcontinent they might drink or do a lot of other unIslamic things but believe me they will only eat Halal!!
The rest of the ethnicities it tends to vary.
Thanks, KH!
Sorry cant agree with you on that :/
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KH:. Using acetone is haram??
How else will they remove the nail polish? Water? Rubber eraser?
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I remember. Before this "Halal" "Fashion" came up, we just used to check if there is any pork in the meal. Am talking about my country and in Europe. The word "Halal" was not in the dictionary at that time
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If we see the "Halal" label on the napkins :)
For those who have been to the exhibition, did you notice the Halal makeup. mainly the nail polish. They claim it does not need acetone to remove. Did not know that using acetone is Haram or a sin :(
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Thank KH. So just cook anything like chicken or beef and they shouldn't even ask me if it's halal, right?
Wat abt. Chocolates,TEa, Coffee, Toast etc. etc. LOL
Don't get me wrong, it's not like I cook much anyway (I'm a lousy cook, lol). But I was intrigued to read the post that if you are in someone else's home you should eat and not ask if it's halal.
OK. Got it now. Actually you do not have to worry about the Halal issue. Just make sure you do not have pork or alcohols used.
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If am not mistaken. I saw once "Halal" rice.
But the Halal fish is there for sure. Check the frozen sea food
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If your friends are particular about their meat, then more than likely they would want you to cook Halal meat for them. However, as Abu American stated there are some who themselves buy meat from the local supermarket so in that case it doesn't matter. Best is to ask them, don't assume.
Btw, its really awesome of you to do that for them!
No, I want to know if when I'm back home (in SA) and invite someone over, do I have to worry about buying halal meat? From what I read in the previous posts regarding the people from the book I gather I can cook regular beef and they should still eat it. But maybe I misinterpreted it.
yeah KH, next will be halal stickers on vegetables :P
usually all meat sold here is Halal. You do not have to worry about this issue. Am I invited too? :D
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Wonder what does Halal fish means. It seems they are having the "Halal" sticker everywhere
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Will someone be so kind and answer my question, please? :)
Thanks.
Yes, but I doubt if the restaurants have the certificates. They'd be taken at the point of import I imagine.
Firstly, the intention in a forum like this is to seek the opinion of others and share one's own. Nobody is trying to misguide people here!
Tallg...that's a great link you sent so JazakAllahu Khairan for doing that.
I guess the thing to check on would be
"This certificate must accompany products labeled "Halal""
So products that have a Halal label should have the certificate, but ones which are not labeled Halal e.g. Sara Lee sandwich meat or Butterball Turkey, those don't need a Halal certificate??
Btw, Insh'Allah my wife is planning to lead the charge to get to the bottom of this with the authorities after the summer break. Bit hard for me to do it from work. If anybody has any leads or contacts there please do pass them our way. Do we just walk into the ministry of Awqaf!!?
P.S. I do eat Kosher Hotdogs in the US!
USDA Export Requirements for Qatar;
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/regulations_&_policies/Qatar_Requirements/index.asp
Packaging should have "A statement that the product has been slaughtered according to Islamic principles is required."
A Certificate of Islamic (Halal) Slaughter should be included in the documentation accompanying the exported meat.
I would imagine it's entirely possible that the packaging and certificate could have been removed during the import process, before the meat arrives at the restaurant itself.
Bro Abu American,
From the outset I recognized and accept your opinion is a legitimate Islamic opinion and agree there are scholars who say it's ok. Unfortunately you seem to have a problem with accepting that there are many many scholars who disagree with you. This is not the forum to discuss the evidences for and against. These are issues that have been debated for many a time and let's just agree that these differences will be there.
Bro, you're missing the whole point of the discussion:
1. We live in a Muslim country. We should be better than to be selling Butterball Turkey in our supermarkets!! Especially when we are in a position to demand differently and there are many choices.
If people are comfortable buying American supermarket meat in Qatar, Alhumdullillah.
2. You are imposing your opinion on the rest of the Muslims without adequately informing them. At least tell the people who are blindly assuming everything to be Halaal/Dhabeehah per Muslim standards cause this is a Muslim country.
e.g. There is a difference of opinion on the issue of photographs. Some scholars say its ok to take them and some say no. I can't make you participate in the annual company photo shoot if I think it's ok and you don't. (I know it's not a one to one example but couldn't think of anything else!)
3. Some other folks were making my statement into a Fatwa that all the chicken is Halal at these places..I'm not saying that...please do your own checking. That was just one time that we had asked. Sometimes it may come from the US, sometimes S.Africa.
Thexonic...that's what I was hoping was the case (That the Qatar government is doing all their checking) but when that big 100% USDA beef sign was staring me in my face, I couldn't ignore it. The whole point is that in their opinion it is Halaal.
Salams All
If you have the system to identify whether the meat is halal or haram and you have the option of having meat clearly says its halal then you have the responsiblity to select the one which clearly marked as halal and reject the one in doubt. In this case you cannot say that the government is responsible for your action.
I think that sometimes we as muslims can worship our scholars as well and leave common sense behind at times.
The daleel you talk about is opinion based upon what? The prophet clearly restricted eating meat that was not killed with zabiha and so did Allah subhana wa ta'ala in the Quran.
Also lets look at the picture that the Prophet did not allow muslims to buy the meat of non muslims anywhere in hadith or Quran! Unless they had no access to islamic meat or were invited to a person of the book house. He did not make this statement without restriction he made it within a clear understanding of a certain situation!
their is a great hadeeth that says in the end of time the people who will be thought of as scholars will only be da'ees (callers to Islam). Has that time come so soon?
As for daleel you have only stated their opinion yet I have read nothing concisely written to support the claims of these scholars. A great problem amongst scholars of today who write fatwas without providing all the evidence needed to support their opinion and explanation about how they came to that conclusion. If they tell you to jump off a bridge will you do that too?
If you have some well written daleel then please pass it on! Otherwise the restriction has already been made in my eyes until I get some clear, concise islamic proof to support their claim!
Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi
Tallg thanks :)
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a coisa mais importante na vida é SHEESHA- "Sheesha man"
Glad someone finally answering the original question! I agree with the thexonic.
Let me clear this doubt, first of all the Awqaf wont approve if the such meat is coming in the country, secondly if some place sells it, it will close down, third of all if by any chance haram meat comes in this country in local market and you eat it, the sin will be on the govt. cuz we believe in the govt. to do the right thing in importing the right product as Qatar being an Islamic country, the govt. is suppose to follow the Islamic way. Which I am sure Qatari Govt. is doing a good job at. There is only one place where they get the haram meat which is the US Army base.
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a coisa mais importante na vida é SHEESHA- "Sheesha man"
Please educate me. After reading the above posts, is it correct for me to say that if I invite someone over back home and this person is muslim, I do not have to cook halal meat and can stick to regular supermarket bought beef?
If in your opinion (or in the opinion of fatwa givers), there is no requirement of zabeeh of the animal, then why go into this issue of halal at all? What is the problem in having an electricution centre in Doha which will kill animals by electricution or to have their heads chopped off suddenly like is done in west instead of cutting only the blood vessels as is done in zabeeh? As per your statement, I understand that all meats except those forbidden, like pig etc. (irrespective of the way they are cut) are permissable in Islam. Please correct me if I understood it wrongly.
Eerr whats the problem here? the meats not halal?
True Alexa, when in doubt, avoid it..
No thanks Alexa, i like dining there while my kids play, can just eat the chicken, its no big deal ;-)
Yep PH, i agree with you...
Fatiq, thanks for mentioning it, we go to these places every now and then...will stick to the chicken too..
Abu American
Eating the meat of people of the book is when we are in their countries or invited to their house.
To live in a muslim country it is our obligation to buy and have halal beef availble to us. And we would have no excuse eating it as their is plenty of meat around. If we were invited to a christian or jewish home in Doha then that would be different. But not to purchase it ourselves.
Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi