Interview with Prof Dawkins on Religion

Happy new year to all

Here is one page article, the Title is

Extraordinary Value of Human Life in The Qur-an

http://islamicperspectives.com/tafsirofsurah5_32.html

@adey I gladly accept the rebuke, that's better than being labelled a mentally sick by my psychiatric.

Wait! was that a pun?

Bloody bonkers!

The miss understanding can do disasters.

Truth needs references, QDCLover no value of researches if they are done without references,

A land scape which is not 4 billion old, in your home for example you woke up and in the living room you saw a foot tracks what does this mean to you?

Atheist are not killing atheists nor Christians, Hindus or Budhhists. How come muslims are killing muslims all over the middle east? Sunnis are killing Shias in Pakistan, Sunnis are revolting against Shia dominated government in Iraq and fight between shia and sunni is on for the last two years in Syria.

What is that in your religion which somehow incites people towards violence?

Happy new year to you too and everybody.

Wa3alaikum al salam.

I'm still lost on where to go for the eve!

I am generally referring to your faithful types.

And when you are being asked you just go mental and yell "Blasphemy".

We know the story...

He is welcome to his own opinions and to argue for them as well but they are just that his opinions. What he cannot do is have his own facts.

Also he has the right to be offended by what other people say, but he does not have the right to never be offended.

Well Tah approximatley only 400 million people speak Arabic so that leave 6.6 billion (plus those Arabs who are not muslim or left Islam, so lets add another 200 million onto that figure) people that cannot understand the Koran and therefore Islam is not for them. 200 million true believers is a true minority religion as per the worlds population.

"For you one word WHO CARES"

Ah the illiteracy...

Ahmed deedat is not alive..but what ever he or Mr Zakir talks they talk based on source and facts"

LMFAO!

Zakir and deedat talking based on source?

I watched practically every video and every debate by Zakir Naik when I used to be religious, and I can guarantee you he doesn't include any facts or sources he merely use "Word plays"

Which aren't exactly facts, and all his sources are the Quran.

So please ,spare us.

on that?

When you see some foot tracks on the land scape what does this mean?

It might mean that some one passed over here or some one made these stamps, in all cases it mean that some one was here on this land scape in all cases.

Thelonius have you ever seen a clear blue sky raining? If no why?

I will consider the answer to the question is no.

And I believe that many people are within this opinion:

If there are no evidences with me that something exist then it does not mean it not existing.

Many people would say it might possible exists.

At least I can travel to Canada and confirm for myself, that is the nature of experiment.

Please don't bring Zakir into this. What a charltan that man is. You might as well believe in a witch doctor.

First

Fact = Truth, so those who say there is nothing true in this life should not use any word which represents truth or reality, am I right?

Second

Somethings need a source and somethings do not need source, the sayings and words or definitions need a source.

Other things which do not need a source are the things we observe and these things we can not say it is not true.

Third

If I do not have the evidences or proofs on my table that there is a country called Canada for example, does this mean that Canada does not exist?

Just think of your body how it works A-Z and what systems are there?

The distribution of rivers on this earth?

Many and many things which I can not count.

You can go to the link I put in my signature if you want.

Yes I have a special nose and all the believers in God.

Ok now lets go back to the inetersting debate.

If you like you can look for Ahmad Deedat debates on youtube.

Thelonius, right. Whoever said that humans were perfect? It is for this reason that humanists' reasoning would be flawed as well, it's not perfect.

Religion teaches that only God is perfect. Life is a work in progress, we all do our best, the only way we know how. If we were perfect, we'd be dead.

Straight Arrow said, "Blosted it seems there is an ...

idea in your mind and you want to force others to agree on it... is teaching good values and morals to the children considered an abuse?

Do you want your children Blosted for example to live without knowing what is right and what is wrong? Or you want them to know what is right and what is wrong?"

The child will have inputs from somewhere, whether religious or not. How will the child know right from wrong? The child will ask questions (provided s/he is free to do so) and the parents would answer from their own experience, what they felt, practiced and saw the practical results from their own experiences or observation of others.

fubar said, "... the example of the catholic kid who was told that his/her protestant friend will burn for all eternity in the firey depths of hell, because he believed in the 'wrong' religion."

Eerm, I hate to say this but even I was told that I was "on the road to perdition" about 2 decades ago when I questioned some leaders on some religious concepts or rather, their assumptions and this being even within the same religion too. So I do know about some coercive behaviours and these are certainly not right.

Very well said, as usual, FathimaH :0) Training them to have an informed faith, not blind faith.

And Straight Arrow, among others also made a good point, "Choice of what is correct is the driving force... normal that they will teach it to their children..."

Choosing the right option at the material point in time with God's guidance is not child abuse.

/Getting on QL has been really difficult these past few days. Must be the onine traffic at this year end time.

Here is what you said earlier

"if I don't experience something with my senses, it doesn't exist FOR ME and has no meaning. It may exist for others, but it doesn't for me. Clear enough?"

And you also said

"SA, you "think" the pen is not moving. But actually it is. Because it is on Earth which is moving in the Solar System which is moving in the Galaxy which is moving, and so on"

If you are sitting in your office do you sense the earth is moving?

you also said:

"But I meant that things we cannot observe have no meaning for me (no matter if they exist or not). The point is not if they exist, the point is, can I experience them. If 'yes', they mean something to me, if 'no', they mean nothing to me."

So basically any science field which you do not experience have no meaning to you, I am sorry to tell that this put you in grade of people who do not appreciate knowledge and science because you stated by your self that any thing you do not experience has no meaning to you.

i am

and nobody answering questions '-(

I guess the basic difference is this. Through experiment or observations I can prove what Thelonis is saying is true or not. Your claims are without substance or evidence, so in fact are just meaningless statements. There are no tests I can apply, therefore you have to assume they are untrue.

If you do not see something does this mean it does not exist?

Have you ever sean clear blue sky which is raining?

If these molecules and energies in the physics example (Quantum physics) were absent will there be movement?

Does your body has a soul or no?

I would like to thank you because your replies approved that the things which we can not observe with our visual eyes it do not mean they do not exist and you insisted some how on the importance of senses.

Thanks and can you answer my question about the teachers?

Brother tahsinmim and sister Fatimah sorry if the topic is hijacked but actually it is not hijacked and you will know that.

tahsinmim the mistake many people make is that they think that we are believers on scientific facts and sciences and this abslutely wrong.

of what is right or wrong then how can I understand what you mean?

A better and simpler definition is:

right cause no harm

wrong cause harm

For you are the teachers who deliver the information to the students in a proper way and the stundest benifit from them, are these teachers are the same as those who waste the students time and students do not get any benifit?

In which way they are the same and in which way they are not?

Other members in this thread can answer this question.

Thelonius if you answer you will get m point.

All you say is sadly true. Sunni and Shia? Islam has way more divisions and sects than just Sunni and Shia. And at the head of most of them are the devils of humans. This is not what I say...nay! This is what the Prophet himself prophesied would happen and that's just the way it is.

Now as to why this is happening is simply because many Muslims today have ceased to seek out knowledge about their religion and instead chose to blind follow their families, communities, Imaams, etc. And they feel great pride in doing so. The kind of tribulations, atrocities and injustice you see widespread among the Muslims today are a result of ignorance,misguidance, arrogance and power hunger, all disguised as piety and the love for Allah and the Prophet! Hence wars and torments prevail with each sect fighting the other.

Blosted you talk about being labeled infidels and pigs? These evil extremists would even refer to Muslims who shun their ideologies as infidels, scholars for dollars etc. If that's the kind of name calling they spit at Muslims themselves then do you expect them to be very tolerating and merciful towards non Muslims.

In fact one should never judge Islam by the actions of the Muslims of today. The truth is God helps those who help themselves. So unless the Muslims of today, from around the world, work towards stamping out the ignorance, malpractices, disunity, and injustices among themselves, no one on earth can ever really avail them!

you in getting my points

but casual reasoning is a branch of reasoning.

can you please tell me how you sense the internal energy and molecules?

Please also define what you mean by sense?

Also I would like to know what is your definition for right and wrong?

it still valid.

If a scientist made a machine, could this machine be improved if people did not think how to improve it or upgrade it?

because of the molecules but is this movement obsereved by the visual eyes? No

The next question when you do not observe something by your visual eye does this mean it does not exist?

Thelonius for the clarification

But I can read on the net and see what it means, I always say there is nothing wrong to say I do not know, but it will be wrong to pretend that you know something and actually you do not know.

1. First not every thing we see physically moves, if you put a pent on your table will it by its self without any disturbance?

2. Assume the people who give the rewards are not stupid. If you were a judge will you put the cap who saved people lives in jail and free the killer even the evidences you have shows that the killer is guilty and the cap is not guilty?

7. What is your definition for right and wrong?

8. It seems you did not understand the question, let me rephrase it, for example if you and your friend are having a mathmatics exam and both of you are studying from the school book which the school gave you, and the exam questions are from the book, you failed the exam and your friend passed does this mean the book is wrong or the understanding of the book is different (you friend understood it better)?

1. Quantum Mechanics is a field of physics which deal with microscopic and macroscopic and internal energy, molecules etc.

The bottom line is that without a source to creat these energies and ecite the molecules there will be no movement.

So can something move without a cause which makes it move?

The answer is no.

4. No it not a coincedence

8. I meant each one is having a similar map, say the went to the shop and each bought the map of Boston for example.

Just on number 4. The oxygen levels on earth have varied greatly over it's existence. Starting from zero percent at the beggining to oxygen levels in 30% plus range during the Creteaous. It mainly depends on the balance within the eco system between oxygen producing life and oxygen consuming life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_cycle

I can understand people having debate with politicals but being argumentative in religion is another thing! Why would people argue about religion? shouldn't we just have to know our limits and know how to respect other peoples belief? I know what I believe and I respect others peoples belief, end the story! so no one should be arguing about religion! Its a matter of what you believe and if people has the sense to just leave other peoples belief, there shouldn't be an argument!

Let's us have peace on earth!

@poachedeggs don't worry even if you help you'd be called an infidel invader pig, and if you don't you will be called a scared Zionist licking Israel's back.

It's paradoxical really.

We all know that a Muslim can never convert to another religion but they are hell bent on making sure other people who are vulnerable and needy convert to Islam.

It's ok we get it...Islam is great. Islam is peaceful. However - none of you get on; you are all at war or nearly at war. You can't even decide between Sunni or Shia.

How the hell are we supposed to help you if you can't even agree amongst yourselves?

@SA

1- Yes (Quantum Mechanics).

2-No (And clearly it seems that the opposite is happening since religion still prevails).

3-Yes, by bribing or pity from the one correcting the test or by just mere chance or mistake.

4-What the....?

5-Yes....this just shows how you lack any education about Astronomy and evolutionary biology (mainly).

6-Temporarily yes, because then we start thinking till we find the solution (and it is still happening).

7-No, and I can't see the point of the question.

8-How can you both use one map in two different cars?...

And finally your questions make absolutely no relation to the topic (again.)

Please answer with yes or no:

1. Can something move if there is no cause to make it move?

2. Are the people who use their brain and benefit humanity are the same as those who sell drugs and spoil people? In other words should both be rewarded and encouraged in the same way or the message will be different?

3. In an exam can a student who does not answer the questions pass the exam?

4. Is it coincendence that oxygen in the earth is 20-23 % and our body needs 20 -23 %?

5. Is it coincendence that we live in this planet and not on moon?

6. Can logic and science be good if they are not understood properly?

7. If there is a good physics book and recognized by many scientists be bad if some one did not understand it?

8. If you are in a car and you friend in another and you together were in the same place and you are both lost and you both decided to use the map and both of you have same, one of you got home and the other is still lost, is the mistake of the map?

@Britexpat you are talking about "Humanists" as if they are a majority, you got U.S.A which is mostly Religious, Christian and whatsoever, you are speaking of Humanists as if they are millions and millions.

Do not forget that the religious lobby in America and such countries is the one that holds the most power, so people can't just go around and invite people to think rationally without religion.

Or else the Churches will run out of people to give them money.

And the idea that you are implying "Because of the murder of these victims , many faiths came and united" is completely disgusting, why haven't they done so before anyone getting killed?

Tah, sounds unlikely. Many women choose different religions to their parents and every religion says they are the one and only.

I guess whatever helps get people through such a tragic loss.

I had promised myself that I would not comment further, because i feel that we should each be allowed to live our own life.. No preaching from the "Humanists" or "religious" brigade..

Then i read this article in NYT..

I would be interested in your views... Do you agree with the author ?

In a Crisis, Humanists Seem Absent

A mourner at the funeral of Anne Marie Murphy, a teacher killed in Newtown. All the victims’ families chose religious services.

Since the Newtown massacre on Dec. 14, the tableau of grief and mourning has provided a vivid lesson in the religious variety of America. An interfaith service featuring President Obama, held two days after Adam Lanza killed 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut, included clergy members from Bahai, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim and both mainline and evangelical Protestant congregations.

The funerals and burials over the past two weeks have taken place in Catholic, Congregational, Mormon and United Methodist houses of worship, among others. They have been held in Protestant megachurches and in a Jewish cemetery. A black Christian youth group traveled from Alabama to perform “Amazing Grace” at several of the services.

This illustration of religious belief in action, of faith expressed in extremis, an example at once so heart-rending and so affirming, has left behind one prickly question: Where were the humanists? At a time when the percentage of Americans without religious affiliation is growing rapidly, why did the “nones,” as they are colloquially known, seem so absent?

To raise these queries is not to play gotcha, or to be judgmental in a dire time. In fact, some leaders within the humanist movement — an umbrella term for those who call themselves atheists, agnostics, secularists and freethinkers, among other terms — are ruefully and self-critically saying the same thing themselves.

“It is a failure of community, and that’s where the answer for the future has to lie,” said Greg M. Epstein, 35, the humanist chaplain at Harvard and author of the book “Good Without God.” “What religion has to offer to people at moments like this — more than theology, more than divine presence — is community. And we need to provide an alternative form of community if we’re going to matter for the increasing number of people who say they are not believers.”

Darrel W. Ray, a psychologist in the Kansas City area who runs the Web site The Secular Therapist Project, made a similar point in a recent interview. As someone who was raised as a believing Christian and who holds a master’s degree in theology, he was uniquely able to identify what humanism needs to provide in a time of crisis.

“When people are in a terrible kind of pain — a death that is unexpected, the natural order is taken out of order — you would do anything to take away the pain,” Dr. Ray, 62, said. “And I’m not going to deny that religion does help deal with that first week or two of pain.

“The best we can do as humanists,” he continued, “is to talk about that pain in rational terms with the people who are suffering. We have humanist celebrants, as we call them, but they’re focused on doing weddings. It takes a lot more training to learn how to deal with grief and loss. I don’t see celebrants working in hospice or in hospitals, for example. There are secular people who need pastoral care, but we abdicate it to clergy.”

In fairness, it should be pointed out that the families of each Newtown victim chose religious funerals. The interfaith service, by its very definition, precluded the involvement of leaders from non-faith organizations like the Ethical Culture Society or the American Humanist Association. At the most divisive, the former Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee asserted that violence like the Newtown shootings occurs because “we’ve systematically removed God from our schools.”

The net effect can be to leave humanists feeling frozen out and defensive. “We send out letters, we send out press releases, we’re on Meetup,” said Anne Klaeysen, 61, leader of the New York Society for Ethical Culture. “But we feel people don’t pick us up. We’re not proselytizers. But the religious landscape has changed so that we have to market ourselves.”

While tacitly excluded from religious coalitions, humanist groups did respond to the Newtown killings. The Ethical Culture Society chapter in Teaneck, N.J., helped organize a gun-control rally there. The Connecticut branch of the American Humanist Association contributed about $370 to Newtown families from a winter solstice fund-raiser. The organization American Atheists reports on its Web site that it has collected more than $11,000 in online donations toward funeral expenses in Newtown. A secular support group called Grief Beyond Belief operates on Facebook.

Still, when it comes to the pastoral version of “boots on the ground” — a continuing presence in communities, a commitment to tactile rather than virtual engagement with people who are hurting — the example of Newtown shows how humanists continue to lag.

That lag persists despite significant growth in the number of nonbelievers. A recent national study by the Pew Research Center found the share of “nones” had risen to about 20 percent of Americans from 15 percent in just five years. The humanist movement of the last decade has had eloquent public intellectuals in Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens.

Yet, in the view of internal critics like Mr. Epstein and Dr. Ray, humanism suffers in certain ways for its valorization of the individual. The inside joke is that creating a humanist group is like “herding cats.”

“You can’t just be talking about cowboy individualists anymore,” Dr. Ray said. “We have to get out of this mentality we’ve been in over the past 50 years of just saying how stupid religion is. We have to create our own infrastructure.”

Mr. Epstein is currently involved in a three-year, $2.5-million project to study, develop and spread the concept of nonreligious community. But he believes that better organizing must be accompanied by better messaging.

“A lot of humanist rhetoric of previous generations revolved around reason,” he said. “We’d say, ‘We’re people of reason rather than people of faith.’ But I’ve always been uncomfortable with that as the banner under which we march. We need to think of reason in the service of compassion — caring, being cared-about, a life of meaningful connection. Reason itself is the tool. When we see it as the end-product we miss the point.”

Depends on what you mean by "never allowed". If you mean in a worldly sense, then no parent, spouse, government or anyone can stop another from disbelieving in a faith and/or leaving a religion. Faith/beliefs are after all in one's heart and mind first, and no one can govern another's convictions and perceptions, though they maybe able to control another's actions via laws etc.

But even when it comes to actions,if you look around you, with an exception to a few Muslim countries(and these countries are lands no ex Muslims would ever bother to reside in by choice), apostates are not punished in any way, cos no one is really bothered.Even in countries like Qatar, UAE, etc no one cares to search out former Muslims and even ask them why they left the faith, specially if they are expats. And should you be in Non Muslim governed lands, then it goes without saying that no one can prevent you from leaving Islam at all!

But if you mean in a religious sense, then according to the Islamic belief, leaving Islam would then make your case between God and you, and it will be upon Him to decide your final and eternal consequence.

Thank you for that response but I think we all know here that your daughter will never be allowed to convert to another religion - unless their is unknown rule that allows the children of converts to 'convert back'.

Well if you ask me what is really unfortunate is the ignorance here about the differences between beliefs and theocracy.

Many can't tell both apart and which is shameful.

you know what...it does not matter much what one says to others about Islam, what DOES matter is what one DOES.

Unfortunately the "do" that is generally visible is far from convincing for most.

And I, as a non Muslim, find only one person convincing here, and that is Fathimah. The others are, IMHO, that which a non Muslim expects...unfortunately.

@britexpat thinking differently is not an issue as long as these thinking are not forced, that's where many fail to see, I know a lot of kids (including relatives) that are always forced to memorize the whole lot of the holy scriptures and all about their religion.

So it really doesn't matter what either sides believe except when it's done.

I personally get a heartache when I see such cases,but it doesn't mean we have to disregard it just because some masses got a powerful political and economical lobby.

Just I would like to share something when you make Dawah to a non believer you should use logic and some versus of the Holy Quran or Hadith, because /she does not believe in the Holy Quran or the Hadith.

Your right bro...wrong order I mentioned. Yes first knowledge then action,thanks for the correction!

Many non Muslims fail to understand us when we tell them this: that for us Islam is not just a part of our life it is actually how we lead our lives. It's our way of life. Only when one becomes a Muslim, and reads into Islam, studies the Quran and hadiths etc will they come to realize what we mean. And yes one who is a Muslim by choice and with knowledge is the one who has tasted the sweetness of faith. Such a person will, in hardship and in ease, always know the beauty of Islam! This is what I want my daughter to know and feel, and not be the kind of kid who only follows the faith when mom and dad are around!

And that's exactly what we do.

Fatihima, good for you and your husband but give your children the freedom you received. Do not force religion on them or your specific belief. Let them decide for themselves

Sorry for the late response...somehow I missed seeing your question. Actually in all honesty I don't know what I'd do or rather how I'll react.I myself defied my family's ideology of religion when I started practicing my faith, and my husband too is a convert to Islam. We are both people who chose to follow and accept Islam as our faith and religion after thorough analysis and studies, and not because it was the religion of our forefathers. Hence we cannot deny our child the same freedom now can we? I only pray that God always remains her guide and protector and guides her to making the right choices and decisions in life, be it in matters of religion or otherwise.

Many people from my husbands family and my own ask me this very question and my answer remains the same: there is no compulsion in religion! This is the words of God's Himself in the Quran so how can we say otherwise.

What i find interesting is that we all readily talk of free sppech, democracy, ability to choose etc etc

YET! Neither side is willing to accept that someone may think / believe differently.

Not two times only but I use it as long as I am living same ads the captain of the ship in the ocean who use GPS or equivalent tools to reach his destination and the distance between the ship and the target is our life.

Logic and science are useless if brain and mind are not used.

In other words you need a brain to understand logic and science.

Every thing has a cause and people arrived on the moon by understanding the logic and science.

@SA excuse me? are you even caring to use your brain twice?

As I said, I do not have to look it up as I was raised a Muslim, is that hard for you to understand? Am I speaking gibberish or latin?

You never made even one valid point in any of your arguments , we can't even understand what you mean with your questions ,yet you say we provide illogical arguments.

@Tahs he doesn't need source, it is a theory, it is taught in most schools (except for the middle east and the such).

And it is logic and science, you need both to understand the universe.

If you dismiss science ,you dismiss logic therefore you can't understand Theolisus arguments.

What evidence do you have to prove that God did not have the tools?

Or what makes you say that God did not have the tools?

Can one case such as your case be generallized?

Congratulation for you Blosted for being honest that you do not want to look up.

There reason for the illogical argument as you say is the different understanding of the people to the logic itself.

Now take this example

if some one gave you a new machine and he/she is the only person who know how it operates will you ask him/her for instruction on how to operate the machine or you will try by your self? The instructions are only available with person who gave you the machine.

Now if you try to operate by your self there is a probability you will succeed and a probability you will fail, but if you take the instructions (assuming it is correc) then you will operate it successfully and you will save time.

I think he's fishing for something but doesn't know how to say it?

I thought when I wrote that different people of different religions have different ideas of what is good that most people could understand that?

Even a brainless can understand what he meant.

He generalized , that we have the reason and intellect to know right from wrong, and we don't need dogmas for it!

What's your question? I'm not sure what you are waiting for?

"Can you write on a piece of paper if you do not have the necessary tools?"

Gotcha , then how did God create the universe if he did not have the necessary tools?

Does that mean the universe was created from Nothing?

"Religion is free choice"

Bullocks, go to somalia ,go to Pakistan, go to Indonesia , stop lying.

And yes I don't want to look up because it's all the same non-sense illogical arguments.

And by the way, I do know more than you think since I was raised religious,and still in a religious family.

Non-the-less this was about the interview, but I bet you haven't seen it yet.

Typical.

if you want to understan you can go to the web and look for references and read.

Some people just do not want to read and its up to them and no one can force them to read.

Fubar please record this which I will write in the next line:

"Religion is Free choice"

Believe in which God?

There are lots of Gods that people believe in.

Did you even watch the interview?

"Some kids are taught that girls who wear mini skirts are sluts. Is that "good"?"

I would say no.

What would you say?

Fubar if you do not believe in God then please do not bring it to the picture, because if you believe in God then please tell what is God will?

In my belief every thing is due to the God will, Soem of God wills we understand as there are clear reasons and some we do not know now and later on we might know.

A general question:

Can some thing move if there is no cause to make it move?

and you can build many questions from the above question such as

Can you write on a piece of paper if you do not have the necessary tools?

For Muslims Islam is the right religion

For Budhisms people Budhdism is the right religion

For Christians Christianity is the right religion

and so on

To answer the question "But they can't all be right, can they?

A comparison must be done by the person who wants an answer for the above question and to have a good result a good references must be used and not people talk.

@Fubar but it seems that God just keeps updating and patching his religions.

Religion (Beta) Judaism.

Religion V 1.0 Christianity.

Religion V 2.0 Islam.

And the funny thing is that they all were shoved down in the middle east, let's not go to the Japanese or the Chinese or many civilized people who could read and write back then!

It is an insult to the Human dignity to say we can't have morality without these bias dogmas.

Different religions have different teachings that they all believe to be "good".

If all religions taught exactly the same thing, we wouldn't have different religions... we'd all be friendly and get along!

I tried to read your really utter random posts.

You make absolutely no sense when you ask questions, you just throw a couple of questions that have absolutely NO relation to the topic or themselves.

@Fubar Yeah and my favorite one, when the Pope made a statement in aids ridden Africa.

"Aids is bad but not as bad as condoms"

Really useful Mr.Pope, but I guess he sleeps perfectly at night not bearing the irresponsibility of many deaths because of this dogma.

That's right fubar and this is why we have laws. Most of us agree that murder is wrong but when it comes to short skirts, drinking, eating certain animals and the like everyone has a different opinion. The big difference being murder directly affects someone else, shorts skirts do not. Well the most that could happen with short skirts is you might be offended and that is fine. Everyone has the right to be offended by something, but you have no right to never be offended by anything.

you can refer to my last 3-4 replies in the first page

But who can say what's "good" to teach your kids?

Some kids are taught that girls who wear mini skirts are sluts. Is that "good"?

Or that it's okay to hurt animals.

Or that the world is 6000 years old.

Or that eating pork will kill you.

Or that wearing a condom is against's god's will.

Different religions all think that they are teaching their kids "good" values. But they can't all be right, can they?

your replies are absolutely incomprehensible.

Who are you to say that the morals you are teaching to your children are right?

As I know morals comes from diverse experiences in life, and when someone only reads one book or live the whole lot of his life over a couple of dogmas.

I don't see how you can be eligible of telling your children which is right or wrong , since you didn't even have a go on anything other than your everyday dogmas and severe rules.

idea in your mind and you want to force others to agree on it.

What makes you say that way of life = religion?

I repeat the questions for you

How come a way of life considere a non-factual story?

A non factual story means imaginary and imaginary means not real, the imagination becomes reality only when it is translated to acts.

You never answered this question Blosted, is teaching good values and morals to the children considered an abuse?

Do you want your children Blosted for example to live without knowing what is right and what is wrong? Or you want them to know what is right and what is wrong?

"Adopted a certain way of life"

It would be more convenient if you just said:

" Well we like this religion and you little rascal of kids must follow it either you liked it or not,so you'd better be happy"

I dont know if we are trying to prove Adey right...:)

from what we see, I do not know every thing and you as well, and at the same time me and you know the same things and example is when you put salt on the food it will be salty.

What suits me Thelonius may not suit you and vice versa.

"The question remains: who KNOWS what is right or wrong?"

The people who experience things, feel it, practice it, and see the results are the people who knows what is right or wrong?

If I gave you a metalic can which is not transparent and there is writing on it how you will know if it is orange juice or pepsi?

You might ask some one, ok what will you do if you did not find any one who can answer you? you will open the taste what is inside.

You will not know the taste of a fruit if you did not taste it.

If a family adopted a certain way of life and made them happy and decided not to change this way of life, this means:

1. They experienced it

2. They practiced it

3. They felt it

4. They touched it

5. They are convinced

Then come this way of life become a non-factual story?

A non factual story means imaginary and imaginary means not real, the imagination becomes reality only when it is translated to acts?

You never answered this question Blosted, is teaching good values and morals to the children considered an abuse?

Do you want your children Blosted for example to live without knowing what is right and what is wrong? Or you want them to know what is right and what is wrong?

Because you compare West with Islam, and it should be Christianity with Islam, or West vs. Arab.

I guess you know not all wrests are Christian and not all Arabs are Muslim.

Ok now let us keep religion away.

Or they have different length?

Not all people speak the same language nor they do not have the same color and here you see that "difference" is a natural thing, so why should we be upset?

We will never upset about a person who see a white car as a black even the car is white in reality as it is observed by he majority of people, also this person may say there nothing called real according to him/her, again it's up to him/her but they should force the majority to agree with their opinion.

Religion is more than the parables and the prophets - it is about faith.

We all know the Abrahamic religions that most of follow were transcribed thousands of years ago and we have all evolved since then.

Catholics don't still believe in 3/4 of what Dawkins' sprout.

Fatima to quote you ' Personally I encourage my daughter at all times to know why she does what she does, as opposed to simply commanding her to do it. Because there should never be room for coercion in religion! And I don't believe thus that I am in anyway abusing her innocence and trust'.

Read more: http://www.qatarliving.com/node/7951876#ixzz2GHqwZgEc

How would you feel if your daughter wanted to convert to another religion?

We in the West have people who either through marriage or desire change their religion and we accept that. Islam seems to despise this.

Am I wrong?

i have a sister and we were raised by the same parents and have the same religion, yet our logic is not the same. im fascinated with religion and physics and alchemy mysticism etc altogether almost open to anything and she is only religious. so what about neuropsychology? your brain is your own

...

Yeah? and forcing children to believe in non-factual stories and basing their lives on the morals of these stories and dogmas is NOT child abuse?

I don't see where you get your logic from.

But as far as I can see, forcing the sponge and delicate brain of children into fantasies and their cruel moralities is abuse whether you liked it or not, it is not up to you to shape the life of anyone forcefully.

A system can either be good or bad, a good system makes you happy and relaxed, a bad system may not be safe and might ends the life of the one who adopts the bad system.

Blosted this is in line with the word you mintioned "concept"

Here the answer for those who did not answer:

Choosing the good way of life and teaching it to the children is not an abuse.

Children are born perfect, they are born free of shame, guilt, sin,hate, full of wit ,the love to learn , full of love.

Until they are exposed to ideologies which fill them with concepts of all that is heinous.

Simply unforgivable.

Well that's good news. I'll let Sheikha Moza know that she's wasting her time because the nannies only do the ironing.

http://thepeninsulaqatar.com/latest-news/219003-qatar-to-launch-nanny-training-academy-in-april-.html

here some hire nannies for ironing and pressing job and bit of cooking some times as well as washing clothes,...etc. they hire nannies also to take their small kids to nursery and school, the mother role is beyond these things which I mintioned.

Also the best person to answer you is not me but the Qatari mothers.

one case can not be generallized.

It seems strange to me that if the value of mothers is so important in Islam, why are there so many families who hire full time nannies to raise their kids?

if it did not work for you it will not work for others, and also it is not necrssary if it worked for you it will work for others.

But for sure the majority will not choose something which impact them badly.

that's why i used parents, i think you refering the value of mother to their children is 2x than the father in Islamic view.

In any religion the first teacher of the children is their parents then the second teacher is in the school, if you called it child abuse what more the teaching of the school? teacher force you to memorize something that you don't like , is this also a child abuse?

tahisinmim....so what you are saying commit sin (knowingly) and pray, get cleaned and move on to the next scene to commit sin.

Same was told to me by my parents, but I didnt agree with them, instead believed not commiting sin is a better option and try to live up to it. So far it has been good...:)

If one is following the religious path (and I guess the audience who believe in religion have got it from their parents as has been argued) then how does he commit sin. Now your guess, whether the followers or the people who pray commit sin or not, is as good as mine. So!!

Sin - religion.

Crime - human.

Crimes can be sins, but not always.

Sins can be crimes, but not always.

I kind of think that Dawkins' point about children and religion was that it's abuse if you teach your children something that is demonstrably untrue - like weird Christians who tell their kids that the world is 6,000 years old. Or when your religious teachings cause emotional distress to children, such as the example of the catholic kid who was told that his/her protestant friend will burn for all eternity in the firey depths of hell, because he believed in the 'wrong' religion.

Sin is a very human concept and differs depending on religion followed or by different cultures.

I am still waiting for the reply of Thelonius

I second SA with sense explaination...

Religion is a way of life and as you said it may or may not suit you.

Thanks again

To each his own.

For me , religion works. It, along with my parents have i believe made me into a good, honest human being. For others, science or atheism may be the answer. who really knows.

We all try to fathom the mysteries of life and do the best we can.

As far as Catholicism is concerned, like most religions it uses the carrot and stick approach. be good and you will be rewarded. we use similar approaches in life, don't we. be good and santa will bring a present etc etc.

As far as Islam is concerned, I know a couple of people who have left islam and they are still alive and well.

Fatihima has given a good answer as always, whether fact or fiction, various faiths have been an important part of human culture for thousands of years and should be learnt but all children. After all these faiths are the basis for many legends, parables and even the language we speak today.

However what does concern me is the Catholics that tell children you will burn in hell forever if you are not a good catholic or the Muslim parents telling their children if you leave Islam you should be killed.

I am still waiting for your answer

your comment

"the parents don't know what is good for their children"

means one of the following:

1. These parents are Ignorant and can not handle responsibility.

Then, do you think that parents who can not be responsible for their children are good parents?

2. You consider all parents are idiot, is all parents idiots?

I said that the parents experienced this certain way of life and it made them happy and relaxed, so they want their children to be happy and relaxed, when parents choose a good way of life for their children is this an abuse and something weong?

Thelnonius what are the functions of the parents?

Is their function to bring kids only for example and thats it or to bring kids and raise them in a propper way?

Does a "propper way" mean to be good and respect all and understand life and the value of life or it means to waste your life and have lack of respect?

;) ok..

Evidence based Knowledge versus Blind Faith?

tahisinmim...for me I am ok to continue here as I am not in religious teachings group (and also dont intend to be)... but this is an interesting topic so if it continues here it will bring in more thoughts, I guess.

To add to it, how would a parent decide that the particular religion is better or best unless the parents have studied the other religions, which I can safely assume they dont.

I appreciate your comments,

The question is and I already asked it:

Is choosing what is right for your childreb considered an abuse or no?

Note:

Parents experienced a thing and practiced it, say a way of life in and this way of life made the parents life better and happier and the parents decided to teach this way of life to their children, is this considered an abuse or no?

Which is better giving a right option and the right option already explained above or another option which might have a negative impact on you and your family?

I do not know if some people asked people to believe in a certain religion, I personally will never force some one to believe in a certain religion.

My question to you Thelonius is:

Is it considered an abuse when parents choose what is good for their children?

The parents experienced that thing which made their life better, that means they are convinced, otherwise they will not teach it.

So, once again we come full circle in QL.

It comes back to religion against science whereas it shouldn't be. Both can and do co-exist. yet, here on QL each side thinks they are better than the other and neither is willing to give way.

Quite sad really :O(

If a couple belief in a certain religion and they have found that this religion (Christianity or Hindusim or Budhisim or Islam) made their life better then they decided to teach it to their children because they want the best for their children is this considered an abuse?

Is choosing what is right for the children considered an abuse?

Simply superb reasoning about non-acceptance of existence of something without evidence. Same as I am yet to get a reasonably convincing answer that heaven and hell do exist.

is that as parents we must at all times remember we can only convey our beliefs to our children. We cannot(and should not)brainwash them to simply parrot what we are convinced on, rather we should encourage them to seek knowledge at all times, and then reach their own convictions, whilst giving them a helping hand whenever we can, and that too with much caution.

See a non religious person should realize that to a religious person(and here I don't refer to the fanatics) teaching their child about their faith is akin to say telling him don't commit murder, don't cheat etc. You do so because you believe it makes them a better human being, and cos as parents you want whats best for your child.

And a religious person should know how to be the best example of their faith, and not force their kids to believe in something without reason and proofs.

Personally I encourage my daughter at all times to know why she does what she does, as opposed to simply commanding her to do it. Because there should never be room for coercion in religion! And I don't believe thus that I am in anyway abusing her innocence and trust.

SA if your believe Islam is the true religion to save mankind, then you must also believe that those parents that teach Hinduism or Buddhism to their children are committing child abuse by not teaching them the one true faith

Choice of what is correct is the driving force, then if parents are satisfied with their religion and they saw how it improved their life and made it better then it is normal that they will teach it to their children, and we all know that the normal parents who are not insane and do not have any physcology problem want the best for their children.

Is choosing the right option considered an abuse?

The real abuse is when parents let their children lost without transferring the values and morals?

When a religion makes some one a better person in dealing with others is this considered an abuse?

And thinking in QL is so limited that it is not worth even bringing up here

@britexpat , I'm sorry,but how do you expect someone raise their whole life on a sole matter , to make fruitful decision when they are adult?... wouldn't call it probable.

You could say that as an adult he / she will be able to make its own choices..

Maybe you will change your opinion then, things by force does not work often.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitra

I don't care about wyat your creator's teaching curriculum us!

All I care about I'd that forcig a religion's teaching on a kid is Child abuse!

Its the duty of the Creator to arrange the learning process for each and every individual wherever one is living. Similar to a newborn child who knows many things before he opens his eyes.

It is the responsibility of each individual to seek the knowledge, truth and identify his creator with whatever capacity one have. Pray to Creator and NOT his creations.

It is mandatory for everyone to know the purpose of his life, know his own strengths/weaknesses, his duties and responsibilities and how to implement those social norms in his day to day life.

@Thelonius Richard Dawkins never preached any ideology he just raised awareness about the extremism of religion and it's effect on children and society in the 3rd worlds.

@Victory , how can someone think for themselves if they were not taught so their whole life?!

I understood his point on the catholic child but I thought it was the wrong example to take.

To heaven on a winged horse and back again!

how to understand this question.. If start from small thing like car, If excellence and expensive car but bad driver. which one is bad? car or driver?

Religions always teach ppls to do right things. Jadi or Dark vader to be choose later. May the force be with you...

I agree QDC. His points were all the sorts of things that a reasonable, even religious, person would agree with, until that point when he spoke of the catholic child.

I thought it diminished his overall argument.

A child is under influence of a religion until he/she is a child after teenage/adulthood he/she have free choice to follow or astray.

Interesting debate, although I found the facilitator was not neutral or unbiased.

However I agree with Dawkins point that to raise your child in a particular religion is child abuse. I have no problem with people having faith of whatever sort but to brainwash your own children when they have no defence is wrong

I admire Dawkins' style and clarity of writing, and I have read a few of his books on evolution and found them lucid and fascinating - rare for a science text. However, I find his views on atheism every bit as arrogant and annoying as people who preach their religion at people who don't care.

Stridently yelling that there is/isn't a God is the least successful way to convert someone's view on the matter.

Right Brit.........

Science and Religion complements each other in majority of cases and differs only when in isolation and extremism.

TFS.. Enjoyed it.

I think this shows that it is wrong to polorise people and completely seperate the two. Science and religion can co-exist - It is the extremism of both sides that causes issues.

I'll have to watch it later but it is good these debates take place. Nothing should be hidden from human scrutiny and everything should be questioned