Do you believe in miracles ?

Back on topic - a miracle is just something which the people that it is shown too cant comprehend. I show you a mobile phone and you say 'thats nice, is it wap enabled?', I go to some remote brazilian jungle and they think its a miracle/black magic.

Have there been any recent miracles in islam? Chrisitianity continues to have them, dont know about Judaism?

Power to the non believers, it’s a great feeling to have and hold.

you guys seems to be having good positive debate but Don't get personal and attack on Arabs or westerners.

Faith, commitments and deeds are different things. I think have explained to Gypsy in detail many a times on QL before.

no no..this is where you are wrong...

We believe both 100%

some people don't do what Islam tells them to..this is thier problem..

if you condemn them, I support you. However, you should not acuse religion based on this.

no connection!

The connection is because people are saying something in the Quran etc and using it as 'proof' and then dont believe in other parts which are MUCH more important.

People say "in Quran it says man made from clay" - which you accept 100%

Now when it says "pay labourer before sweat dry' - you only accept 40%

where is the connection between science/religion controversies and muslims not following Islam?

I dont get what you mean CBD? you think i am arguing but im agreeing with you???

I think 'pay labourer before sweat is dry' is very good idea!!!

Now why is it that no muslims are complaining? Where is the protest on corniche?

RD..by the way..you lack respect..just to advise you..and you do lack understandings too..

i think you are racist too..as i told you, science is not why I am a religion believer...

only Westerners run charities? so what? Islam does not differentiate between arabs and westerners nor blacks or whites...nor reds or yellows...human being are all equal like the teeth of comb...

Islam tells us to pay labourers before thier sweat get dry. Ofcourse it does. Someone like you reading this, should credit Islam for its commitments not blaming Islam when Arabs or whoever do not follow its system. this is an analytical disability.

dependeing on religion commitments, it would go to war side by side with a westerner against arabs...so stop thinking of arabs as muslims and westerners as non believers!!

CBD, I dont mind if people are jew/christian/muslim etc, just dont use/abuse science to prove that your religion is correct.

Promote your religion through its good deeds - why is that it always appears to be westerners who are managing local charities etc?

Why are no muslims campaigning that 'labourers are paid before their sweat has dried'??

As with most things in life, they are judged by actions here and now, not 1000 year old words.

RD..i know why you say this..

how would you use this fact to deny man made from clay? suppose clay was mixed with water? this shows your weak foundation! to just deny something like that is reflective of some approaches.

I did not follow religion because of its scientific discoveries because of everything about it.

Most of us know the body is approximately 70% water, Which then straight way disproves - 'man made from clay' type arguments.

This is where we get problems where religion thinks it is 'science' or alludes to it.

you may check some resources to find out more about water content in all living matters

hahahaha RD..nice one..i see your point

we have a misunderstanding..

to put it in simple terms..I think people who talk about miracles of the Quran and its scientific discoveries should be careful when they post such a thing..

because thier orientation and culture are different than non muslims...i believe they cause a lot of trouble..they just hear muslim scientists and follow them without a lot of questioning..

I am a muslim but i don't necessarily agree with some scientists interpretations on Quran's scientific discoveries. However, i do agree with some.

Just to make it clearer, following is an extract from Quran:

[21:30] Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?

--------------

all living matter contains water...therefore, some muslim scientists made the connection of what Quran says and what this findings found. you got me now?

I would still be a muslim though regardless of this findings, because religion teaches good things like respect, honesty, helping the poor and many good traits. and for reasons i explained earlier.

i will post other threads later on to orient the issue in a better way hopefully.

I get the impression that generally people dont know what science is doing and is possible of doing and that also are able to conceptualise risk and probability?

I remember my friend going to the Islam centre in Bahrain where they were having a lecture on buddhism I think, and several of the muslims just couldn't comprehend it.

Some of us believe there is 'something' to life but mainstream religion christianity/islam/judaism doesn't answer it, and when it claims to be scientific it just puts people off even more.

CBD - what i was proposing is an experiment, say you have 100 jews, muslims, chrisitians and athiests on a building and they all forced off - who will survive?

If only the jews survived would you convert to judaism? You cannot 'see god' but if only these people survived then you must be wrong??

you are all awesome and famous now ... Soon that would be the talk of the town as well :)

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment. (Gautama Buddha)

Awesome I'm being talked about on the Corniche!!!! :D

Well that's good Azam, but it still doesn't prove that religion isn't man made, in fact, quite the opposite.

Ooh ooh people in the Corniche were discussing this? I've been posting a lot, was I mentioned? Look Ma I'm famous!

IT person ... ?

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment. (Gautama Buddha)

Sure why not? I'm not IT person, but if someone showed me how I'm sure I could.

corniche already ... I've seen two gentlemen having a walk while discussing this thread ... Don't ask me how, they should've got some sort of iPhone or HTC to do so !!!

Anyway, everything is possible these days like what is posted there ... I gotta .. gotta go and see someone to check what am I exactly ... Ape, Monkey, or far worse ... maybe an Alien ... at least I would know that I don't belong to this planet and should quit taking chances here and go to some other galaxy ...

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment. (Gautama Buddha)

I agree..it probably is my fault..I should have taken a more comprehensive approach..

Gypsy and all..i recommend we stop this thread and i will be designing new posts to address what we discussed..

Adey...i would be interested in your view on my last post directed to you..

See you soon

Thanks FS

Yup it's been discussed many times before Azam, as have many other things. So?

I think when a religion supports some things, such as the ownership of other people, you should take a step back and question whether this is something you really want to believe in. Seeing people blindly accepting things that you know to be unfair, is a little disappointing.

Isnt it time to stop this dicussion...it's not reaching anywhere...

more often and more prominently than anything else.

well..maybe you are talking about growth and dynamics..which is driven by the ability of God.

you just don't believe it

How about the slavery issue? The Quran noticeably mentions and supports owning slaves. Is that the notions of an outdated society or a God who is "good and merciful"?

Not really Azam. Becauses the laws are so obviously man made.

And evolution is not a remote possibility it's happening as we speak and we see evidence of it everyday. When's the last time "God" demonstrated his abilities?

Gypsy..stop talking about logic because i could accuse you of the same...

if you believe in remote possibilities suggested by evolution..why would you not allow a remote possibility which justify something you do not understand..

So what Azam, you're saying because I have over 1000 points I'm not allowed to participate in discussions anymore?

Where is the logic in throwing rocks at someone till they die?

well..

this is why you do not understand..I will reply to you in length..cannto explain it here right now...

you just look at it without questioning the logic and when does that happen and to whom..and yet make your judgement..

I wish you looked at evolution the same way!

I can't believe that this thread is still active since last Wednesday ... Not sure which Wednesday was that so the date it was opened: 08/04/2009

Cheer up guys, it's still early in the morning ... You should be doing something like:

Let's have another cup of coffee ...

Let's have another piece of that pie ...

Not fighting early in the morning, I don't know how bad was your last night ... but ... just leave it behind .. let it be ... just drop it ... for god sake it's too early to pick up a fight ... you did not see yet the worse of this day ...

Heero, stop playing with magnets or it would pull out all of your steel teeth :)

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment. (Gautama Buddha)

What's to not understand about throwing rocks and someone till they die?

your opinion Gypsy..but again.. it is not as you view it because you do not understand how it is applied and explained.

I'm well aware of Darwin's views Azam, and I've said that I don't discount the idea of a supreme being, what I don't believe in is religion.

Do I think adulterers should be sentenced to death? No. It's barbaric and outdated.

well, i admit they are human rights issues in Islamic countries...but we will not judge our progress based on western standards..

In our religion, men cannot excercise homosexuality and this is something we are unwilling to change...if this where change should be applied then hell to change...

if this is where you think change should be applied..should not wives freely cheat on thier husbands and vice versa?? let us change the historical model..right??!!

That's fine with cars and camels, but what about outdated views on women's rights, homosexuality and more?

Gypsy..I am not disagreeing that flexibility is required and different eras require different things but only when it makes sense..

We have no problems in praying exactly like the prophet prayed..but we won't travel long distance on camels while care are now available!

Power of change comes only when change is managed and when it makes sense to deal with surroundings...not just for the sake of it.

Because things change! People change, people evolve. Why continue to hold ourselves to the values and morals of people who lived 1600 years ago?

why should religion evolve to make it acceptable..

do you care about its truth or about evolving for the sake of evolving?

I am not sure where you got the 4 examples from! I know christianity, which I believe was distorted by some people, had some views on earth's flatness but not all religions claimed so.

The thing about science is that it uses the term "theory" so that people feel the need to constantly test it and try to prove it wrong. In this way science is constantly evolving and people continue to learn new things. So something discovvered in say 1600 years ago is still being re-tested and changed to keep up with new discoveries and ways of thinking.

Unlike Religion, which was written based on values and morals held by people 1600 years ago and has not evolved or changed since.

Lets think about some other strongly held beliefs from 1600 years ago:

1) The Earth was flat

2) Sea monsters were a real threat

3) Dragons and Unicorns actually exisited.

4) cutting people to make the bleed was a viable medical procedure.

CBD as for the similarities between the 3 religions, the fact that they all come from the same area would be just a small explanation.

RD..it is up to god what to do and when..sometimes god punishes and sometimes god forgives...

asking why no one turns into monkeys now is a wrong question.

I don't get the ramadan experiment. could you further explain?

last time i checked heero, earth revolved around the sun, the sun doesn't revolve around us.

CBD - science theory is repeatable, religous feats aren't. Like gypsy alluded to - how come now no one turns into monkey etc.

Take adhering ramadan - if i have experiment:

where I take

- 1000 muslims following ramadan

- 1000 muslims not following ramadan

Which group will have more deaths/accidents?

Power to the non believers, it’s a great feeling to have and hold.

I Am a Creation of God's Wonderful Miracles....

I Am a magnificent being with unlimited potentials...

I do believe without doubt :)

THEORY of Evolution

The Big Bang THEORY

It's a scientific study that hadn't been conclusively factual yet and needs more research.

But having to have a 'theory' of Mekka as the Center of the Universe is just plain uniniteresting to do scientific research...because there's no sound science (not even magnetism or gravity) to prove it.

Although I do notice it 'magnets' a special number of people in this place.

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

Adey...welcome back!

The problem with science is its systematic nature. You may be aware of the some mathematics givens, which cannot be proven but are to be accepted. is not this something scientists do! indeed.

Science also is based on observation. detecting a phenomenon and decomposing it which is effective but not all the time.

Additionally, why would we think and limit ourselves to science believing it has the answer. This may be our problem.

As I said earlier, we need to be careful on what tools to use, where to apply them and how.

How would you solve an equation with two or three unknowns. This is impossible!

However, the impossible becomes possible using the simultaneous approach not the conventional one.

I am assuming you have some mathematics background.

should not we use the known to define the unknown? maybe we need to.

we can debate for a long time with details on religion and evolution but i don't think it is the right approach here unless we are driven to it.

I may have confused you by now but i hope that made sense. I am just thinking out loud here and may be a good thing to point the thinking in a certain direction.

Let me ask you the following assuming you know enough about the 3 religions (Judaism, Christianity & Islam):

what would you attribute the similarity of the 3 religions to?

I would think about 20% of worlds population do not believe in a god/creator.

Some areas are more atheistic than others eg US is about 15%, UK about 40%, Scandinavian countries and Japan 80%+.

I once met a Bahraini Atheist here in Qatar but I am sure that the % in the Gulf is very low.

On your point about knowledge and conviction: I think the more one learns about the religion one is born into, different religions, Science and Evolution the more skeptical of religion one becomes. One needs to know about both science and religion to begin to weigh up which is correct. Studies have shown that the more intelligent one is, and the more one has had access to good quality education, the more likely it is that you will hold an atheistic world view. Of course this data does not imply that religious people cannot be intelligent.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Let me tell you...

I did not think there was this number of people who do not believe God created everything...

I wonder how much knowledge and conviction each has about evolution...have they really comprehended the whole issue from top to toe or are they relying on reports and studies made by thick glasses wearers taking thier findings for granted??

May God protect us all from being mislead

Your quote

"So why are all those people who fish and hunt on Saturday's not being turned to monkey's now? "

VB: It happened to people belong to the community of 'Sons of Israel' and those commandments of not to fish on Saturdays was a specific command for those people at that particular period...if checked even today jews respect Saturdays Like muslims follows Fridays and Christians on Sundays.

Those commandments were not mandatory for muslims to follow today being Qu'ran was revealed later with new instructions, which precedes old instructions, we have 3 highly respected months called Rajab, Shabaan and Ramadhan, when muslims are supposed to be more pious, stop holy wars and same situation like when one is in 'Ahram' condition during Umrah or Hajj (I don't recall more restrictions now).

Allah (SWT) had openly punished all disobiedients people prior to Prophet Muhammed's (Peace be upon Him) ummah (people), being HE is been sent as a messenger of UNIVERSAL MERCY and PEACE for all and He is with us that's why all the punishments were postponed till Day of Judgment.

ALLAH knows the BEST!

Take the yearly Holy Fire of Jerusalem which ignites out of the blue on Orthodox Easter Eve as best example of contemporary miracle...

Do you believe in unicorns too?

we don't believe in miracles from jugglers / magicians

BUT we have BLIND faith and belief on each and every word of Qu'ran and its teachings.

Well that's convienent isn't it. That way no one ever has to require proof.

Ok, but lots of Jews don't follow the Sabbath, yet I've yet to see one of my Jewish friends turned into a monkey.

believe they are related to monkeys or for that matter any other creature on earth. 200 or even 2000 years ago man had no reason to think that they were nor could ANYTHING prove that they were related.

Of course DNA now proves that in actual fact we are all related, with Apes sharing the most DNA with us, of course we share 70% of our DNA with fish and plants and everything else on earth.

I don't expect a person of faith to accept any of that. Back when the bible and other good books were written man had no idea of any of this. Evolution as a theory was only posited 200 years ago. Once the "genie" so to speak was out of the bottle the scientific facts then coalesced around the theory. With DNA finally giving us the ultimate proof of the tree of life. It really is quite beautiful and endlessly fascinating. Personally I prefer this to the thought of a "God" as I find it more interesting, others find the though of a god more comforting

That would be because we know a lot more about our world today King Edshel. Too much I'm afraid to believe in fairy stories.

Just to clarify..I am not sure whether transformed monkeys (punished) are who we see today or some others..

convincing people these days is a far difficult than the old days :)

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment. (Gautama Buddha)

Gypsy..

In my belief..humans started from Adam & Eve...who populated the earth with humans..later on..and i don't know how long from Adam's time, God punished some normal humans beings for thier disobedience and transformed them into monkeys...

How that happened I do not know!

looking around me, I can only attribute what I see to God. the so complicated systems, thier interdependence, and probability of having this happen on its own...etc..all this lead me to believe in God. How do certain harmons difuse through the body in precise quantities? how does the mind function? how does dreams happen? how do we get upset and get happy at different times while physical properties are the same? why do we hate liers? and like honest people? why do we hate killers? and love peace makers? all these things lead me to the belief in God.

I may not understand how this happens but I believe that God made them happen.

little example: if I tell your fathers name, for example, you would believe that I know his name even if you did not know how that happened.

Using my logic and observations, complimenting them with religion makes me a believer.

the fact that some people do not believe in god because they do not understand how god created everything is not an acceptable argument to me.

Ah of course, because God just did all this stuff when there was no one around to see it, and now he's stopped. Because that makes more sense then evolution. :P

it was for specific people in some era that reach it's end ...

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment. (Gautama Buddha)

god Gypsy and it ended up with what they've mentioned above ...

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment. (Gautama Buddha)

So why are all those people who fish and hunt on Saturday's not being turned to monkey's now?

those who were punished like that died after that ... that's the end of the story ... they got nothing to do with Darwin who got nothing to do with humans at all ... he can believe that he is monkey if he wish, but i'm sure that i'm not ...

Don't like bananas that much, can't jump on earth to do that on trees ...

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment. (Gautama Buddha)

(very early so called human beings) stages...transformed into humans with civilisation...(DARWINS's theory of evolution)

I feel proud to say that I dis-approve such theories of LIFE and believe in Quran and accept Adam (PUH) as first man and father of human specie.

CBD: I know (as per Qu'ran and Hadees) Allah had cursed a few humans (SABT) due to their disobediance of Not to do Fishing/hunting on Saturdays. As punishment their faces were changed to Monkeys and they died as monkeys after a few days.

CBD I believe you said that you think God punished people by turning them into these "ape-like" human ancestors?

I said how do you explain then that they didn't live at the same time as modern day humans.

Gypsy..I am lost already..please stop using complicated terms..I believe homo sapiens mean normal humans?? could you put your question in other words plz?

You clearly have never actually studied evolution. We are descended from a species of "Ape like" creatures that have since become extinct. Apes are our closest cousins but we did not evolve on the same evolutionary "branch" as common apes. This is a common misconception.

As all living creatures share the same DNA structure we can see how essentially every living creatures is related and evolved from 1 common single celled creature many millions of years ago. The tree of life as Darwin said, we all share a common trunk and everything living creature on the planet is another branch growing from this common trunk.

Initially when Darwin posited the theory it was just that "theory" Darwin did not know, could not know that less than 200 years later science with the aid of DNA would prove the elegance of his theory. It really is beautifully simple.

Not that this will change anyone's mind which is why these conversations are so pointless. No one of faith will read what I just wrote, go do some research and come back and say "WOW I was so wrong about where I thought I came from I will abandon my faith".

That doesn't happen, instead they will dismiss the scientific fact, find some bullshit web site that agrees with their point of view then post it on here saying "there I am right you are wrong"

And so it goes on. Totally pointless. Why argue with anyone's faith in God, if some one chooses to believe in something so what as long as they don't come on Qatar living trying to sell it as FACT leave them to it.

monkeys are very similar to humans - show similar traits and can even do 'sign language'

humans/monkeys also share physiological similarities to aquatic animals, where all life first came from.

Monkey development went off in one direction, human another.

How to you explain that modern day homo sapiens didn't live at the same time as their "monkey" ancestors then?

victor..it seems not...

I believe some humans were transformed into monkeys as a punishment for their disobedience towards God. God made that happen.

Sorry, when I say "monkey's" I should say "ape-like creatures" not litterally monkies.

But from where the monkeys came into existence?

and Why nowadays, no monkey evolved even close to human beings?

As per evolution theory Humans ancestors were monkeys?

People are being laid off from jobs, Qatar is struggling and the most popular thread today is THIS.

Are there not web sites dedicated to topics like this where people actually care ?

This is very simple, evolution is scientifically provable fact, God relies on faith.

As Richard Dawkings says If one is to argue that there is a god who created the universe, man and everything around us then the burden of proof has to be on the one arguing for a god as what is being argued is so fantastical.

And of course there is the MAJOR PROBLEM with any of the god hypothesis and that is if God made us WHO MADE GOD ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Anyway as you were I am bored at work.

Gypsy...

does this not contradict what evolutionists say that humans do not evolve from monkeys? are you aware that this is something they state?

of posting here is what? The guys posted a link to some stuff, got no idea if he was expecting some irrelevant replies or what ...

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment. (Gautama Buddha)

Well CBD, they followed the evolutionary train from monkey's to people, they have evidence of dozens of different stages of human evolutionary development, I say virtually because more then likely they will find one or two other "missing links" along the way. But when I say missing links I mean thousands of members of a spieces, not 2 people.

Gypsy...virtually? i know many places where this word is used where it does not mean what it says..

Vivian,

There are things which exist and you cannot see them. Example, modulation which carries your voice when you make a mobile fone call. Your voice is transmitted from the handset and you cannot see it through the air, but it there!

when you hear the person calling, you get sure the voice is on the air without seeing it, because you saw the evidence.

They have virtually identified the whole chain starting with Australopithecus Afarensis, and moving on up the evolutionary chain to Homo Sapien. There is no single Adam and Eve and we are made of blood and muscle, not clay.

YES, I DO BELIEVE. FIRST YOU BELIEVE IT IN YOURSELF.

I BELIEVE IN MIRACLES AND EVERYTHING I SEE

If evolutionists believe all systems generated from the same source why would they deny that Adam & Eve populated the earth?

Not just Christian would not like that, we would not like that too.

Without going into much details because only god knows, Adam was made using mixture of soil from the earth, made into something like clay and stayed for sometime as a hollow object. God later on, put the soul through Adam and that is when he came alive.

So as you can see, God did it in steps (We bielieve God can do anything without needing to do it in steps).

Could this process not be called evolution?

I don't know how we are made, and obviously we cannot block people from investigating and it is normal that people study phenominons. However, denying that Adam & Eve populated the earth with all humans we see today, is something that contradicts the evolution theory itself. if they have not yet identified the complete chain, how would they justify denying in Adam and Eve?

Well, i havent read much of this discussion but I would say I believe in the miraculaous creation of this universe by whatever means it happened. I take God to be it's Creator and unto Him is all praise. Talking about the miracles, I saw a street show in my childhood in which a magician was tied with a rope to one of the four poles in a tent and he changed the poles in seconds as the curtain was raised and pulled! And in the last I saw him come out from a nearby roof! If the mirales are to be taken as means to determine the truthfulness of a religion then all religions do have some miracles performed by their preachers..

Islam, However, is not based on miracles as the same have not been mentioned with authenticity anywhere. And this is the BIG miracle of Islam that without any miracles, the illeterate Prophet could so perfectly convince both ignorants and the scholars of that time and this time too about the existance of God and His attributes. He was tremendously succesful in uniting the people on the Unity of God. Isn't it a miracle in itself..

I think thats the message this thread attempted to convey..

Be Good, Do Good.

Yeah, because no one is doubting that someone was greated from a rib... That part makes perfect sense.

____________________________

For more examples of evolution just look at 'drug resistant' virus/bacteria etc.

In the west - christian groups like to attack evolution because it disproves the belief that adam and eve populated the earth.

____________________________

ya i do believ in miracles n one more thing i hav e personally experienced it whn ur whole wrlds fallin apart n u just hav one saviour n thts my lord allah

It's not that they approve, they just say there's no evidence for or against the existence of a higher being.

However, science has dispproven the creation myth.

a few scientist approves the existence of a higher/supreme power but due to absence of any PROOF or God existence felt by human senses, science still denies.

So we see Science and Religion and trying to answer different questions; even complements each other many times.

Not true VB, there are many scientists who believe that God used evolution. Again, evolution does not dispproved the existence of a higher power, it simply dispproves creationist myths.

creation of changes in evolution/incidents (with passing time) and earthly particles similar like other animals WTIHOUT intervention of GOD....

as Science won't Believe in what cannot be proved by existing human senses...(such as soul, jinn, heaven, hell, day of judgment, etc)

I reitreat.....

If we were trying to show that Science (and Technology) are different from religion, yes that is surely the case.

Science can only tell us "How the Universe Works ?" and Technology (i.e. Applied science), makes use of the answers provided by Science to improve the lives of human beings.

But Science cannot answer the question "Why the Universe works the way it does ?", "What is the purpose of this Universe ?",

"Is there a purpose at all ?", "Is there anything beyond, something that we cannot perceive ?",

"Is Morality relative or there are absolute defintions of good and evil ?"

These are all questions that sicentists will claim are the domain of metaphysics (not physics), and non-scientists will say are questions of spirituality or religion.

So you see Science and Religion and trying to answer different questions, and hence cannot be the same.

Evolution doesn't deny the existence of God, It's entirely plausible that a higher being used evolution, what it does deny is the Creationist theory of Adam and Eve.

In one of the vedios, it says evolution is misunderstood to have denied god's existence where it is in fact does not include such an issue.

I understand how irrelevant such a question of 'does evolution deny existence of god' is..

However, does evolution suggest that we came to life without intervention of God? without stating God's existence?

I hope someone answers that...

Ok, read as much as possible and can't really add anything on to what Adey and MissX said. It's all down to evolution.

difficult to explain/prove....how the whole system works in a similar fashion and circulating in the same direction since millions of years; when it will stop this routine.

....From here onwards my belief and religion starts..

Miss X,

I hope you will not lose interest in the discussion because i get lost sometimes within your explanation and thanks for admitting the many faults within your example.

I am lost to the extent that I am not sure what to reply with in terms of technical details.

It may probably be time to adopt the religious approach.

I will get back and I have some question unanswered by you which we need to agree on before we move ahead. I will repeat them. Bear with me please.

This is a wonderful opinion. The things mentioned are unanimous and needs to be appreciated by everyone.

rockey

data entry jobs in london

every seconds of our life was a huge miracles....

I still get erections at my age every morning.

Power to the non believers, it’s a great feeling to have and hold.

I'm finding it hard to make this understandable to you. You have to stop thinking of human beings, and start thinking of them as organisms and cells, which is how we began. Cells are asexual, in that they do not have 2 sexes. They can reproduce by splitting in half. And you have to stop thinking of the world as many systems. We are all one big integrated system that feeds off each other. Things adapted and survived because those adaptations worked with the current environment. If they didn't work, then yes they died out.

Go back and read my example about the common cold. Species are able to prosper because their make-up worked. Most died out. If the world was bombed with a radioactive substance, we would all most likely die. However if we were able to survive long enough with radiation poisoning, then you will find that mutations would been occurring within cellular divisions. Enough mutations occurring means that a mutation might occur that is adaptive to the radiation. In that it instead of radiation being poisonous, it actually becomes beneficial. Now if this happened to enough people, these people would be able to reproduce with this adapted mutation and prosper. The rest of the people who did not have this accidental mutation and had alternative mutations, will die out. This is a very simplistic form of evolution. There are of course many faults with my example. Humans are now made up of so many cells that 1 cell mutation would not be enough to adapt the whole body. And secondly 6 billion people are a grain of sand in the desert in comparison to how many people would be needed to have a certain amount of successfully adaptive mutations.

Argh it's very hard to explain. Don't take my example as something to pick apart. I'm just trying to give you an idea. 1 million years into the future, instead of people asking "as a human, i cannot survive without food and water. Imagine, if food did not make into existence, what would be the situation?", they would be asking "as a human, i cannot survive without radiation. Imagine, if radiation did not make into existence, what would be the situation?".

Miss X,

I think i know what you mean about evolution not denying god..picture is now clearer.

my comment about the lotto was to say, how likely is it to have successful combination making humans and at the same phase of time, wether a bit later or sooner, to make other specimens?

I do lack understanding here and i need to read more..but if different species start and form from scratch (each), then it is not probable to have around 30 million species happening at the same time, with each having two sexes- a necessity for continuation.

However, if the claim is to say all species started from one thing- then this is again not realistic because structure and mechanism of living & propagation is different to a point where no similarity can be found.

let me ask you this, as a human, i cannot survive without food and water. Imagine, if food did not make into existence, what would be the situation?

would you say that we would have died and arrays would continue until further system existed? OR would you question on why those system existed at the same time.

Evolution is a fact, I think we agree on this!

Mechanism is still not completely known. we agree on this too!

in a nutshell, my claim, is the way things existed and thier interdependence and complexity cannot happen without a creator. the mechanism of evolution is performed by the creator- god.

Therefore, the difference between me and you is the mechanism by which we, and other systems, came to life. We believe it is god, you believe otherwise.

I am sorry if i made some statements based on my lack of knowledge in evolution principles.

Your comment about evolution not denying God is a little sweeping. Again you are acting as if evolution is like a religion. The idea of evolution is a progressive conclusion based on many many findings and pieces of evidence which directed scientists to a hypothesis. The existence of God in relation to the theory of evolution is not included whatsoever, because there was no evidence to include it. Science is ONLY based on what physical evidence it can obtain and which processes are able to be demonstrated and are replicable in a laboratory or equal to.

Your second comment about the same person winning the lotto over and over again I think comes again from a little lack of understanding of the processes of evolution. If you mean by it in regards to evolution, that the same organism experienced mutations over and over again, then that is not exactly the case. One organism may have experienced an adaptive mutation, and been able to survive and reproduce a trillion fold and those generations to exist in that form for a million years. It is one of those products, which are now in the inconceivable population count that may have mutated adaptively again.

Your third comment I am unable to answer very well. Scientist have been able to reproduce evolutionary processes of organisms in artificially constructed environments to speed up the process. Therefore evolution is a fact. I do not know enough about the mechanisms to be able to appreciate the complexities of it all. From what I assume it means by the mechanisms being not properly known, is that although we understand the cellular processes, we do not have all the evidence to prove the entire human evolutionary trend from bacteria to current human form. We only have information of parts of it. For example we have the bones of our ancestors that show the intermediary forms that existed. But they are few and far between, and are only in existence due to flukes of nature that were able to preserve them. Therefore the amount of evidence is not complete enough for scientists to claim knowledge of everything. To do that, is unscientific to the core of the definition.

Miss X,

Good to know evolution does not deny god. let us remember that.

re the lotto example, i got you. however, how likely are the same seven people to win the lotto again and again?

Do you agree that evolution is a fact and the mechanism is still a theory?

Well Curious, no it does not deny the existence of God because it does not mention God. It is a scientific examination of certain processes. Instructions about putting together a tv cabinet do not deny the existence of clothes either. They are simply not mentioned because they are moot to point.

And in answer to your question about probability. The rate of probability is low, yes. But in realistic terms means it can happen often. For example the probability to win lotto might be 1 in 20 million, which is a fairly low probability. Say that half of America decided to play the lotto. That makes 6 or 7 people who actually won. Probability doesn't mean it's unlikely that something is going to happen, it means that something WILL happen, but only once in a certain amount of tries. For the lotto example, it means that that the lotto WILL be won, but means that YOU will be unlikely to win it.

And when we talk about evolution and particles and bacteria etc. We're talking about a number that human minds can literally not comprehend.

Adey..Miss X,

Based on your vedios & links:

- Evolution does not deny existence of god.

- Evolution is fact but the mechanism by which evolution happens is still a theory which is not complete yet?

Could you confirm this is what you accept.

Miss X,

disregarding that low probability lead to existence of God, do you agree that the probability of existence of all systems is very low?

Thanks Adey..

I am studying the evolution at the moment usign your vedios and websites given by Miss X...

I have posted a lengthy post earlier which I hope you read..

I would also like you to read the following..I have not considered religion yet so this is just something to share which we may or may not use once we get to religion approach in our debate:

http://www.themodernreligion.com/essays_Gary_Miller.htm#signofgod

This series is pretty good, here is part one but I suggest you see all six

&feature=PlayList&p=019F146277A3EDFD&index=0&playnext=1

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

I think medical science could treat the genetical deficiencies by injecting strong harmones into weak bodies.

DO WE STILL BELIEVE IN MIRACLES? YES!

Such a complicated human body structured made up of composition of Zillions of cells, vast nervous system, lengthy digestive system, functions of heart and a small human brain (Storing so much megabytes of stories, experiences and doing massive and significant JOBS Like we are debating HERE)

- Creation of universe, solar system and Galaxies are all functioning doing their jobs since millions of Years by ITSELF.....Unbelievable!

Isn't this a MIRACLE? or Naturally.....Believe me there is A SUPREMEBEING driving everything.

Victor..

Even Quran explicitly states no compulsion in religion..

Belief is a personal choice and everyone has the right to believe in whatever he/she wishes whether convinced or not. Implications of believing or non believing is between God and the human. you can only make them aware.

I was not to start talking about this had I not seen willingness from a non believe in god to listen and debate..

I will do my best..to err is human...to forgive is divine..

Miss X, just wanted to clarify. We will get to this point under the religion approach..

I mean that all religions that state God as the creator of everything, seem to come in a neatly bound book. They are very simplistic explanations of the world. Please don't take the word simplistic as offensive, if you try to read a scientific study you will realise what I mean in comparison.

Tell me when you had already experienced this QL Group; those who are still not agreeing to believe in God's existence; will they accept Quran the words of Allah?

Jazakallahu Khair!

Miss X, you said earlier:

(Well MD, you have to realise that all the religious texts manage to fit the origin of life and rules of the world into 1 relatively easy to read book. For people who have not been as exposed to science, as we have, I can only imagine that they assume evolution is understandable within an entire read as well.)

I am not sure what you meant by that specifically when you said: (manage to fit the origin of life and rules of the world )

Would you detail that please!

Here, you can also read this. It doesn't give details of evolution, it tries to help people distinguish what about evolution is the theory and which parts are undisputable facts that are representable and repeatable in a laboratory.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

Victor..before jumping please read what has been posted and you will save yourself and the rest some time and effort..I know where you coming from because i started just like you did...

Once you read what has been posted, you will the see the logic and the theories of people who don't believe in God...you may then be more effective in your argument..

You may challenge as you see fit..

My approach for now is to debate as humans to humans based on science and logic...

Next approach..I plan..to be using religion..

Gypsy..I will wait..I would appreciate your response..

Miss X, I confirm what you stated..

MD..

Have you read that material already yourself?!

I am not sure who is not serious my friend!

I skimmed. I'm super busy, you may have to wait till Sunday for a proper answer.

Curious has taken on the task of convincing us that a God does exist, yet we are still awaiting the evidence as we have determined that disproving evolution does not prove a God. And we are filling him in on the concepts of evolution.

Victor Bhatt has contributed just now asking a question that does not make sense so am not sure how to answer...?

How do we overcome diseases if our ancestors have weak genes?

Gypsy..I hope you read what I posted this morning at 2 AM something..

Go here for a beginning, CDB.

http://arxiv.org/

But remember, I said "for a beginning!"

MD..

If you have a better source of information provide it please..otherwise..hold your fire...

Should I stop until I find a material that is endorsed by everyone who does not believe in God? It is possible though to find a perfectly accredited material online. If you ask me about Islam, which I concretely believe in, I would direct you to online information as we are serious about this business.

I assumed that non-believers in god are serious too in thier claim and therefore would have posted sometihng online too.

This is a showstopper!

Well MD, you have to realise that all the religious texts manage to fit the origin of life and rules of the world into 1 relatively easy to read book. For people who have not been as exposed to science, as we have, I can only imagine that they assume evolution is understandable within an entire read as well.

I think by reading the website links I gave, there will be more of an understanding on the complexity of it all, and hopefully the painstakingly slow research and evidence that has been put into it will be apparent.

I think a lot of people who are not scientifically minded think of evolution as a religion similar but contradicting to their own.

Where are we with this? I can't be bothered to read all this?

here...(Champs in the field of Anatomy, Evolution and Astronomy).

Very simple question....

How one could overcome with defiencies (certain diseases, weaknesses), which we carry in our body due to defeciencies in our family's (parents or grand parents) weak genes?

Such a complicated human structure (body) made up of composiiton of Zillions of cells, nervous system, digestive system, functions of heart and a small human brain (doing significant JOBS Like this)

- Creation of universe, solar system and Galaxies are all functioning doing their jobs since millions of thousands years by itself.....Unbelievable!!!

Isn't this a MIRACLE?

I am glad you mentioned the last sentence which I agree with...I would phrase it or say somthing relates to it which is 'we may never be sure on something'...

the answer might be arrived at by means different to how we usually do things..The means may be things such as knowing the answer by elimination, or calculating the probabilities or otherwise.

I think we have a problem in managing our debate too..which leads to losing each other..which I will try to overcome...

I need to read about evolution and come back once done with more arguments and suggestions..

In the mean time, please keep thinking about previous posts- which I do. We may make progress by intelligently questioning our observations.

Will be back!

To be honest I am not quoting off any website. The posits of evolution are things I have learned over my lifetime and my studies. I will try and find a web site that has accurate information.

Ok here's the wikipedia entry on it. I haven't read all of it, because it's just so damn boring. But it seems to stick to facts without going into too much depth. Science has never been an easy read^^

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteria#Origin_and_early_evolution

Don't you think it's cheap to get your information from a Website? Are all the others idiots who study a subject at least for 10 semesters to get a Master Degree? I think you are not serious enough, my friend.

All,

could someone provide the info I requested earlier. Are there researches which give numbers we can use here? in answer to my questions above?

Miss X,

i admit lacking knkowledge in evolution and would appreciate if you direct me to the theory of evolution. a website or file will do provided we are looking at the same data.

The theory is the survival of the fittest, e.g the best suited to an environment will dominate it. Repoduction due to its complex nature has a chance of providing offspring/children/plants which have a differnt property to its adults. This property could be of an advantage or not. But just because it has a better property - stronger, needs less water, better camouflage etc doesn't mean automatically it will survive. The dodo was perfect for its environment till man came along and killed them all.

Yhere ahve been disastourous events where an alien species has been introduced to another country to control pests like toads in sugar cane, and they take over.

This process of change explains why we have the different races. e.g White skin would be of no use for trekking across the kalahari.

I think by your last comment Curious, you don't quite understand the concept of evolution. It sounds like you are using the word evolve, synonymous with appear. That is not the case.

I will give you a modern day example.

The common cold. Every year a new immunization for the common cold is made. We have to do this because the bacteria in cold virus have the ability to adapt themselves to changing environments. It doesn't do this on purpose, it has no consciousness of it's own. It happens because the cells that make up bacteria mutate, which is an accident that happens when cells divide sometimes. Billions upon billions of mutations occur within these bacteria, and every once in a while one of these mutations allows for them to exist in what was a previously hostile environment. The bacteria that did not mutate in an adaptive way quickly die out, however the ones that did are now able to survive and multiply. Thus a new strain of the common cold is formed.

These "systems" you are metioning are still evolving. They are adapting to changing environment (food supply, temperature, and so on). Some scientists think (and they provide evidence for their ideas) that mammals evolved around 200 million years ago and became dominant after the extinction of the dinosaurs. The dinosaurs are a classical example of a species who could not adopt to environmental changes. And nothing could save them. The mammals, however, were small enough, lived mostly in caves, and were protected against violent climate changes. Since the dinosaurs were gone, the mammals became dominant. Maybe some day the ants will be.

I think the way you're looking at systems is wrong. The systems don't magically harmonize with each other. They became the way they were because of each other. We are one big system.

For example humans aren't a system which conveniently harmonize with plant and animal systems, so that there is food for us. We all exist off each other. The "systems" that do not adapt, die out. Only the "systems" that worked continue to prosper. Humans breathe in oxygen and breath out carbon dioxide. Plants utilise carbon dioxide and emit oxygen. The plants who were not able to exist on carbon dioxide did not survive to be in existence today.

The modern world that you see today is the result of only the species that were able to adapt. The ones that did not adapt, the "systems" that did not work, are a trillion times more plentiful then the ones that did.

MD..I will have to clarify further on the order thing...you can ignore this question for now.

Last system:

I am referring to human, animals as systems. When was the last system out of those systems evolved and came into existence? and what is it? could this info be provided?

CBD, I only understand half of what you're saying. "Why are things in order". I don't see that things are in order, they are rather chaotic.

For an estimate of evolution to develop a system it can be 5 generations or 5000 generations. And what is the "last system"?

MD...good claim...

Please all answer my previous questions:

1- why are things in order given the so many systems?

2- I need an estimate for how long it takes evolution to create a system.

3- How long ago was the last system evolved into an independent system? can you quote an estimate which is conservative enough to acertain it?

The probability that evolution occurred may be low. But if you convert it to actual figures then all it needs is once.

For example if you throw 1 million eggs into the air, all you need is for 1 egg not to break when it lands, and you have a chicken. The more eggs you throw, the more chance of it occurring. But all it takes is that 1 egg for chickens to exist. When we're dealing in evolution, whose beginnings date back to bacteria. Then we're talking about so large a number I do not even know what it is called. It takes 1 hour for 1 bacteria to turn into over 100,000. If you begin with trillians and trillians plus some gazillions :P, then the likelihood of one of those bacteria accidently mutating into something that fares better in the environment it is in, then there's a realistic chance of that occurring.

From a scientific point of view even the universe is the result of probability. There could have been trillions of other universes emerging with the same probability. There is no need for somebody "choosing" this one that we have. When this universe popped out it was having properties and these formed (by accident and probability) what we see now. And then there were more than 13 billion years for things to "play" around. And the result of this "game" is what we have today. And because it's a "game" it is so full of flaws. But, give it another 13 billion years, and there will be some flaws terminated because they will not survive. You have no idea how long 13 billion years are!

Miss X, RD, MD...

Plead stay within the boundaries of our argument..

Let us not mention religion...since I started this argument I have been reasonable taking religion out of consideration..up to now, we are mathematicians and scientists...I do plan to introduce religion later on..but as of now...please don't consider it..

I woul really appreciate it if one of you could direct me to a source of the evolution theory which you believe in..a website or somethig..i could google it..but it is better if we use one you agree with so we are talking about the same details..

RD..you make a valid point that religion was key in hiding scientific facts which are now proven..I agree on this..but let us take religion out for the time being...

b. bananas, apples:

there are alot of vegetables and fruits which require no human intervention to exist. Hmans didnt breedthem orused pollinations to make them. you may not say humansdid not intervene here therefore god did not intervene. God started the universe and things generated orderly, just a reminder on my claim

c. Human are not required to keep chicken going. humans ntervene to manipulate genes but sustaining will occur regardless.

Miss X, you say there are more than two possibilities which brought existence. i understand.however, I believe you agree that the probability of things happening based on evolution, is very very bsed on pure mathematics..agree??

how do you say evolution is likely to occur based on gathered evidences when its probability is very low? cannot believers in god say our theory is more likely?

Please answer my previous question:

- what kept so many systems in order for a very long time "during the same time"?

The old saying about power corrupts - is no different in religion.

Where religion is the main source of control/belief it has been open to gross misuse - from the catholic 'crusades' to talibani 'jihad' etc.

MD makes a good point. Although people now have the freedom to choose their religion. In the past people were forced to believe in certain ones and worship certain Gods, for fear of death. It is highly suspicious that the ruling bodies felt it so important that they had to kill in order to make people toe the line, the very thing most religions preach against.

It adds argument to the fact that the rules that embody religious texts are very cleverly implemented ways to control the masses.

You should have said:" Just because a lot of people are forced to believe in something doesn't neccesaryily mean it's true."

In addition, certainly in the christian world, scientists were burnt/tortured for being 'devil worshippers' etc for their work which obviosuly went against religious thought at the time. Also a lot of scientific work was 'buried' if it was contentious.

As I said before - the god's 'chemistry set' idea I can work with but when relgion starts trying to be scientific its gets silly.

Just because a lot of people believe in something doesn't neccesaryily means its true, e.g santa, tooth fairy's etc.

So here is the reasoning:

If the only reason people believe in a God is because of religious texts written by men, and stories told by men, that say there is a God.

And these same religious texts deny that evolution occurred.

Yet we have evidence in our possession that the processes that make up evolution, such as cell mutation, bacteria evolution etc can occur.

Then the only reasonable conclusion are that the religious texts are wrong, and are in fact fabricated by men.

No curious, I do not agree that the world necessarily came into being from one of 2 methods.

The theory of evolution or the idea of a creator are not necessarily the only possibilites. Those are the only possibilities that we know of at the present time.

A person did not think of the idea of evolution and then made arguments to support it. The theory of evolution was pieced together bit by bit as evidence began to point us in that direction. As we continue to gather evidence, and add it to the ones we already have, we may find another plausible theory. But my point is that the evidence that has been found over many years, make evolution a likely reality.

Science is an ongoing investigation of the things around us. It does not presume to know the answer to everything, only finds evidence to support or disprove things. The disagreement between science and religion comes from religious texts that do not allow the idea of evolution to co-exist with the idea of creationism. These religious texts are the ONLY "evidence" of a God. And I use inverted commas for the word evidence because to be truly accurate the religious texts although are claimed to be the words of God, are written by the hands of a men and are therefore hearsay.

a. Sun shines at predicted places right round the year never violating its path. Moon does the same.

Not exactly true - it follows a path but not the same path, and there are little deviations as the planets move about.

b. why bananas, apples, oranges taste so good and are eatable and required by humans?

Much of this was by cross breeding/polintaion plants by humans, and or randomly by insects. Find paces on the earth relatively untouched by humans and try to eat berries etc, and you will prob be dead with 48hrs.

c. How likely is it to have such great compatibility between some living creations, humans, animal, fruits and could that be act of nature?

Again not really compatibility, humans took breeds that were useful to them and moulded/selectively bred them, one chicken makes many eggs then you keep that one as the 'cock' and dont use the other males etc. This has been going on for a long long time. Again, go wandering though brazilian jumgle / australian outback and not get bitten by something which will kill you.

are u first convinced that evolution theory is wrong..?!?!

then we will get to existence of god.

..

mean while think about these..

..

Why are things in good order??

a. Sun shines at predicted places right round the year never violating its path. Moon does the same.

b. why bananas, apples, oranges taste so good and are eatable and required by humans?

c. How likely is it to have such great compatibility between some living creations, humans, animal, fruits and could that be act of nature?

Miss X,

I see your point that Disproving the theory of evolution does not not by default prove the existence of a God.

However, do you not agree things came into existence via one of two methods; either someone made them, God, or nature put them together? Do you know of any other possibility?

Those are all very good points, but again I have to insist that this is not evidence. You can calculate probability until the cows come home, but even if the probability is 0.000000000000000001%, it does not give evidence of a God at all. It just gives more evidence against the idea of chance occurring and thus more evidence against evolution, but does not give evidence FOR a God. Do you know what I'm saying?

Disproving the theory of evolution does not not by default prove the existence of a God.

Miss X, Thank you for the clarification.

I am back with some answers.

I have seen the 4 vedios posted by Adey in full.

Continueing the debate and based on the vedios and previous postings by all, I have the following remarks to make:

1- I will not be able to explain everything. I will try to convince you that God exists based on some evidences which lead to such a conclusion i.e. God exists.

In my case, there are things which I don't understand in this life, but because of evidences to prove god exists, i am not affected by those matters i do not understand.

I will not use such an argument like, why does not god tell me if he did it and/or how. If god did not tell me how I was made or how the universe was made then I cannot use this as a prove of God's nonexistence. God does not have to tell us how we were made to prove he exists.

2- Those who do not believe in God are not in a better position than those who believe in God, in terms of scientific explanation. I say this because it is mentioned in the vedios that there are intermidate steps which are not known yet (based on abiogenesis and evolution theories). I believe this statement could also be made regardless of the vedio because if those who don't believe in god claim, which I believe they don't, that they know how humans, for example, were created I would ask them to produce one.

3- With reference to point number 1 above; I shall limit my discussion for now to some examples while execluding others. I will return to them however later on. an example would be humans. Gypsy asked, why do we have diseases, which is a good question i think. Let us focus on normal humans who don't have diseases at the moment. The idea here is to use complicated systems as a prove of god's existence. Ofcourse I have to convince you that those systems require intervention and I will use probability for this. Using probability I will also try to prove that those systems cannot be put together simply by fluke and that things coming together on thier own require a plan.

let us start by this:

a. How likely are you to meet a friend in a shopping centre by accident? you may say very probable.

b. How likely are you to meet two of your friends by accident? you may say probable.

c. how likely are you to meet 3 friends by accident? maybe probably.

As the number of friends you are likey to meet by accident increase, then the probability of that happening decrease.

Adey may say the 3 scenarios above are equally likely regardless of the number of friends as long as they don't require happening at the same time- as is the claim made earlier os small steps over vast amount of time. granted!

by saying this, I state that if the number of friends increase while the probability of interest is the one where all of friends need to be accidentally met at the same time, then the bigger number of friends, the less probable it is to happen.

let us carry this further into a place where things do require to happen at the same time.

Let us limit the study now for animals:

estimated number of animals is 3-30 million species based on http://animals.about.com/b/2007/08/13/how-many-species-on-earth.htm

If you believe evolution happens over long periods of time then I may suggest the following:

1- each creation took a long time to come into existence.

2- assuming the 30 million number is good estimate, how long did it take each.

There are two possibilities here under point 2:

a. Each animal came into existence over a period of time during which none of the other animals came into existence. in other words, one after the other. If this is the case, then how long did each animal take to come into existence when we have 30 million? if we take a figure, a realisticly long figure for this kind of operation representing number of years and multiply it with 30 million what do we get? would this number not exceed the the point where time kicked off. How like is that to happen?

b. some animals came into existence at the same time. By this I mean, some coditions had to happen over the same phase of time. Now this is where so many conditions need to happen at the same for which probablity is very low.

3- Probability of things happenign would even get lower if we attribute the natural evolution for making two sexes for the 30 million species and factor this in the probability equation.

4- Why are things in good order??

a. Sun shines at predicted places right round the year never violating its path. Moon does the same.

b. why bananas, apples, oranges taste so good and are eatable and required by humans?

c. How likely is it to have such great compatibility between some living creations, humans, animal, fruits and could that be act of nature?

5- What keeps things in balance if they are subject to random forces?

you would probably say overtime, they will go off balance. this is a fine argument. However, the probability of having so many animals and so many other creations and systems and have not YET lost balance is very very very low which basically means impossible. The world existed as it is today since a very long time.

6- among all living things, in addition to stars and food and other stuff, when did the last object/creation came into existence. How many years ago? it must be thousands if not millions according to the evolution theory. Is it possible to have so many systems at the same time for such a long time(time taken from now to the time last object/creation came into existence to be conservative) without disorder and in such a good balance?

7- Adey, I missed one of your earlier posts somehow where you ask: (so such a complex 'being' as a god had to have an even more complex/intelligent/powerful designer - yes?).

I say this is a valid point but let us focus on God's existence first, whom I claim made humans and other systems. I hope you are not saying this is an endless sequence of supreme beings so let us deny it from the beginning instead of getting tired following it all the way! (I believe this is not what you meant just to clarify)

Think about it!

What I meant by that, is just because we do not yet have

a scientific explanation for something, doesn't mean a scientific explanation does not exist. It merely means we have not discovered it yet. We do not propose to fill gaps of knowledge with ideas with no evidence, but would rather keep gathering information until we find some. As of yet there has been no actual evidence of a creator.

I don't know.

Dear all,

Miss X quoted earlier:

"But to fill the gap of knowledge with the idea of a God is a rather big unfounded leap. We prefer to admit that we do not know yet, which is the beauty of science, instead of proposing to explain something with no physical evidence to back it."

Are you ALL 'don't know yet' or are you concretely confident that God does not exist? what do you believe if none of these two?

I ask this in preparation to answering first questions which I am yet to do.

So we return full circle :)

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

UK, you are not meant to have hair. Take it as it is. No need to perform a miracle. Live with it!

Can some help me from the Quran to see how I can miraculously grow my hair back..

Will save me around QR20K on the transplant that I am planning..

-----------------

HE WHO DARES WINS

Gypsy..Thanks!

Somewhere, adey.

Where is that in the Qu'ran?

:)

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

adey, if you could go inside a nucleus of an atom, Newton's Theory of gravitation will fail!

Here you go CBD http://www.qatarliving.com/node/465347

I agree Miss X....

You don't seem to know what 'Theory' means in scientific terms....it's is not a guess or a hunch.

For example if you think 'Newton's theory of gravitation' is just a theory then I dare you to go to the roof and chuck yourself off to test it.

PS - DON"T DO THAT!!!!

If things are left unanswered it does not follow that you fill these gaps with magic.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

I am not angry, master. I just heard it sooooooo many times when science finds something, some guys try to convince me that it had been said already in the Qur'an. And then I ask them:" WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL THE WORLD ABOUT IT INSTEAD OF WAITING FOR SCIENCE TO DISCOVER IT? And then they think I'm 'angry'.

Someone mentioned that evolution is just a theory. And that is true, the best we will probably ever be able to do is find evidence for or against it. I would also never be able to prove to anyone that I brushed my teeth yesterday either. We can't prove something that happened in the past, but I'd like to think that the amount of gathered evidence is a pretty fair effort to supporting the theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Big_Bang_theory

Aristotle, who was born in 384 BC, was the first KNOWN philosopher to discuss the idea of the Big Bang, or Temporal Infinitism. In fact the big bang theory was dismissed by Islam, Judaism and Christianity because it is not reconcilable with the idea of creationism and that the universe has a finite past.

The "Big Bang" idea is also part of many cultures creation myths, including Buddhist ones that came out 2000 years before Islam.

Ok..I have a difficlt task (won't say impossible at the moment)..

I will get back factoring all thoughts..

Gypsy, i dnon't see MD's post on ants. where is it?

@ MagicDragon

why do u sound angry..?!

did i offend u by any mean..?! sorry if i did..

@ Gypsy..

don't just say that,

can u provide anything saying that it's been a theory that's been floating around for a long long time, long before the Quran....?!???!

i'd love to read that..

..

@ CuriousButDetermined

cool, i'm in..

Exactly MissX, just as it's impossible to prove the idea of a divine creator it's also very hard to dispprove it. Religion on the other hand....

Now, the Qur'an says there was a 'Big Bang', according to master_mas. Just imagine how sad he will be when science finds out that the universe was not created trhough a 'Big Bang'. What a disaster! No, he will surely find a passage in the Qur'an that tells this story. I'm sure.

Curious - there are not always two sexes, some species can swap sex. Also some things can self reproduce without the need for a partner. Google - hemaphodites.

As gypsy said humans are still changing.

Gypsy captured my own opinions exactly when she said

"It's not the idea of a divine creator that I object to, it's the idea that that creator made us, then went around telling us not to behave the way it created us to behave"

I too have never denied the existence of a creator, but have yet to be given any evidence that substantiates it. I keep an open mind. A set of rules written by the hands of men do not reflect a God, but merely the ideas and laws reflective of the time they were written in.

Also like Gypsy said (wow Gypsy I think we would get along), evolution has not necessarily stopped. It is a very very slow process, one that we will never see happening in our short lifetimes. But if we indeed have stopped evolving at human form, it is because we have reached a level of technology that means we can now control our environment. Change occurred in response to altering uninhabitable atmospheres. Oxygen would be a toxic gas to humans if we would unable to utilise it. We were once not able to. The random mutations that occurred in cells back before human form, allowed for those species to survive the change in atmosphere, and thus were able to reproduce themselves. There were likely billions and billions of mutations that occurred that did not make living in an oxygen dominated environment possible, and thus those died out. Hence evolution and survival of the fittest.

The Big Bang itself is still just a theory master_mas, and it's been a theory that's been floating around for a long long time, long before the Quran.

Master mas..take it easy..

let us challenge each other based on our own intuition without referencing to Quran please..at least at the moment..

to put things in the right context..I am now trying to convince some individuals that God exists...not in any way promoting any religion...

Once we agree on God's existence, we can examine religions..

For now, let Us focus on God's existence please.

master_mas, does the Qur'an explain why the expansion of the universe is accelerating? Or are you too stupid to find the passage in the book? Just a question.

something else..

oh, my surprise, u people still replyin here...

sorry, but I ain’t got time to read em all..

who started talkin about evolution theory..?

u do realize that Evolution is still just a Theory, scientists couldn't prove it.. & many things left un-answered.

I wanna tell u about the Big Bang, the beginin of the universe, and how scientists were able to prove that it is true few years ago, by using super computers and telescopes, watching the stars movements and calculating the distances between them, they were able to determine that the universe started at a single point in the empty space with a big explosion.

Guess what, it was mentioned in the Quran many years ago.

Watch:

MD.. check this:

http://www.pbs.org/transistor/album1/index.html

Based on available info, I don't see transistor as being accidently invented and produced. However, assuming we agree on accidental invention, the number of steps that took place for what you refer to as 'inventing the transistor' to the point human intervention was required, is small and not complex. Therefore, big number of steps is required to make something. Adey's point is valid, on arrays of different forms of life, but why are we still humans and there are no new creations if this is true?

I believe plants are both genders, as it were. Sexual reproduction requires 2 distinct genders but there are many life forms that don't reproduce sexually.

"could arrays of different forms of life result in humans"

No, that from which we evolved from is now extinct - so in that sense we are unique and always will be. Other intelligent life forms may evolve over the next tens of millions of years but they would not be homo-sapiens, humans.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Yes, CBD, because the two (the third was awarded only for the theoretical framework) did not look to invent a transistor. They were just playing around with diodes like monkeys typing on a typewriter. And suddenly a 'word' appeared. And they said: how nice. And then someone came and explained what had happened.

MD..

you said using and explaining...which means it was a development starting from diodes..additionally, it took 3 men to use this and develop it into a transistor. Do you think we could attribute this to accident? humans were required to put things together. Agreed?

Because Shockley measured a diode. Unfortunately his measuring instrument ran on a 9 volt battery. This voltage triggered an avalanche effect across the positive and negative layers of the diode. And it became a conductor. Without the voltage (instrument applied) the diode was an insulator. Using and explaining this incident created the three layer transistor being a semi-conductor and brought the three guys involved the Nobel Prize in physics.

We haven't stopped. Evolution is an on going process that takes millions of years. We've only been in the current Homo Sapien form for some 30,000 give or take. Look at MD's post about ants. Evolution is happening all around us.

Gypsy..

could you explain the theory of evolution and why did we stop at being humans if we evolve?

Just to clarify..I will reply later specifically to questions raised by Adey, Gypsy and Miss X.

MagicDragon..why do you say transistor was accident?

you have a link to an article or other data?

Evolution CBD.

MagicDragon..this is a good point you brought up too..

what do humans, lions, sheeps, birds, trees, have in common? they all have two sexes....why all of us have two different sexes? is not this what is necessary to keep us going?

Adey,

I would like to ask you this: could arrays of different forms of life result in humans, and yet in other creations and go to the extent that all of them have two sexes? how would you view/explain this?

The human race is full of flaws and errors. For example: two different sexes. What is it good for? One proper species could clone itself. God designed a lousy model!

I agree RT. It's not the idea of a divine creator that I object to, it's the idea that that creator made us, then went around telling us not to behave the way it created us to behave.

The "invention" of the transistor in the 1950s was a pure "accident"!! Imagine, now you're using QL based on that "invention".

If religion just said - god created the building blocks of life, atoms, protons, muons etc and stopped at that it would a whole lot easier but when it starts bashing evolution/fossil record etc it gets silly.

Really amazing arguments you brought up.

Gypsy, Good question.

Miss X, you said: "The rate of chance that things just came together to work, is dramatically increased when there are parts that can alter". I agree with this.

Adey, I like your idea about array of different forms of life and successful adaptations..really smart.

I will get back to you with each question. Please give me some time.

In case you are wondering, there are many things in this life that I do not understand. However, this does not make me deny existence of god for a simple reason. the evidences I see that lead me to believe god exists work against myself being unable to explain things i do not understand- and the question of why we have a heart disease is a good example. I hope this makes sense.

I will try to get better answers to your questions before i declare my failure to convince you- which I will if i do but hopefully not.

"The rule is: "any system which requires big number of steps in a prescribed manner to exist, such as mobile fones in our case and humans in God's case, cannot exist without someone carrying those steps""

Sorry but you are wrong: it is very small steps over a vast amount of time that allows evolution to work. There is no proscribed manner otherwise we would not see the vast array of different forms of life .....it's just that successful adaptations get to pass on their genes, unsuccessful ones don't and disappear. 99% of all living things that have existed are now extinct - so a creator god is doing an awful amount of destruction.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

It is a valid point and a good analogy that the complexity of the world needed someone to put it together. But still is no evidence that someone actually did. We are not dealing with inert mobile phone parts when we talk about the world. We are talking about living, changing and growing pieces. The rate of chance that things just came together to work, is dramatically increased when there are parts that can alter. I do not suppose to know why they are in existence in the first place, as no scientist would either. But to fill the gap of knowledge with the idea of a God is a rather big unfounded leap. We prefer to admit that we do not know yet, which is the beauty of science, instead of proposing to explain something with no physical evidence to back it.

I think Adey's point CBD was if there is a creator then why are we so flawed? Why the apendix, heart disease, etc.

If a cell phone had this many things wrong with it then we would never allow it to be sold.

Gypsy & Adey..

My point about humans and cellphones is to say: cellphones, which require a big number of steps in a prescribed manner, need human to carry those steps based on knowledge on how to produce a cellphone that functions.

Analogues to this, humans whome creation need a big number of steps in prescribed manner, need someone to carry those steps based on knowledge of how to make human that functions.

Same example, is applied to stars, animals, birds and other creations.

I am unable to watch youtubes now for some reason but I promise I will.

Meantime, I will state a rule and let me know if there are exceptions to it.

The rule is: "any system which requires big number of steps in a prescribed manner to exist, such as mobile fones in our case and humans in God's case, cannot exist without someone carrying those steps"

Take a look at this

&feature=related

or this

&feature=related

or this

&feature=related

or this

&feature=related

The argument about a plane being made in a junkyard from scraps during a hurricane is a non starer, as these inert materials do not contain the properties that define life.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

subhanallah.....

So great. Humans are smart and invented cellphones....what's the point? If humans were cellphones we wouldn't allow them on the market because they have so many flaws.

Ok..

all of the 5 inventions are not as complicated as cell fones, TVs for example.

TVs & cell fones required big number of prescribed steps. Those complicated items require careful design and humans intervention. this big number of steps in an orderly manner cannot happen by fluke.

I agree that the 5 inventiontion you quoted were fluke. However, it took further work, by humans to make them usable. Those inventions were not merely a fluke.

Regarding Pencillin, the following is an excerpt from an article:

(Though Fleming discovered penicillin, it took Florey and Chain to make it a usable product.)

Full article at:

http://history1900s.about.com/od/medicaladvancesissues/a/penicillin.htm

http://history1900s.about.com/od/medicaladvancesissues/a/penicillin.htm

I'll get back to you.

Just to say your starting premise is wrong - Complexity comes from simplicity in incremental steps. If you take your argument backwards; that it takes something complicated/intelligent to design complex features eg eye/mobile phone, then as you go back complexity must increase - so such a complex 'being' as a god had to have an even more complex/intelligent/powerful designer - yes?

And the human body has many flaws that shows it is a bad design in many respects - so a 'god' didn't do such a great job.

re DNA this evolved from RNA which evolved from something else

And planets and whole galaxies do collide - google NASA to see astronomers photographs.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

The wheel. Fire. The Microwave Oven. Super Glue. Vulcanized Rubber. Safety Glass, and most important of all Penicilian.

http://www.cracked.com/article_17134_5-accidental-inventions-that-changed-world.html

And that's just in 100,000 years of homo sapien existence! The universe has been rolling in its chemical stew for billion's of years!!!

is there any product which a human made, existed by fluke? without human intervention?

Ok..

why mobile fones, for example, where not invented long time ago? all materials available today to produce mobile fones existed centuries ago.

The human, producer of the mobile fone, manufactured pieces, put them together in very precise order, programmed them and then they could work.

If you take one small chip out of the mobile fone, it will stop working. Could this complicated structure, mobile fone, be implemented without someone, human in this case, put them together?

Aeroplanes, computers, TVs, Internet etc. None of those highly complicated and carefully designed systems could be a fluke. All parts cannot come together and form one harmonised system that works. a human is necessary.

Now, let us look at the DNA, which is one of the most complicated structures, this thing exists in pairs and i think there are four types. two types form a pair, the other two types form the other two pair. examining this structure, you won't find any of the two types making pair1 mix with other two types making pair two. This cannot be fluke.

Let us look at galaxies, sun, stars which is huge system. they behave within orbits and don't mix or hit each other.

Let us look at the human body. See how the liver works, how kidneys work, how eyes view, how mind thinks, how ears hear, how hearts pump etc.

All of the above examples are designed in such a way that could not be possibly put together without someone just like the mobile fones, aeroplanes, TVs, Internet and all.

You tell me who this someone is? or how did these creations, including humans, existed?

Well much like cellphones, I think the universe, humans etc. were trial and error. Somethings came together by fluke and worked, other things came together by fluke and failed. We have plenty of examples of the failures and plenty of examples of the success.

Go ahead CBD, try and convince us. Maybe you have an argument we haven't heard before.

Jackfrost..I am not saying you need to convert..

Adey is asking for someone to convince him that god exists..I would like to try and do that..

If you come to me asking about any dimension of Islam, I would be more than happy to answer...at the same time, I am asking about 'god does not exist' belief.

But there is nothing in this world that we need to be converted to....As i stated before: we understand that at the end of the day we all have to answer to our own conscience and principles.

It is always the lost that need my guidance

Jackfrost..

You may challenge my beliefs if you want, you are most welcome...

I do respect all beliefs, including the non-beliefs. It is your right to believe and disbelieve in anything you want.

I saw Adey's note and I replied to it. I could try convincing you too unless you consider this an offence.

Not everyone believed in a god. There are a lot of us that do not believe, we are strong in our ways, we believe in ourselves, we don’t need an idol to worship to obtain our strengths, or ask to forgive us when we do bad and inhumane things, we understand that at the end of the day we all have to answer to our own conscience and principles. Power to the non believers, it’s a great feeling to have and hold.

It is always the lost that need my guidance

CuriousButDetermined you may have a go whether he believes it or not but in the end will it make any difference?

Good Fortune always comes knocking at your door...when you are sh*tting in the toilet!! :)

_[]~SMoKE~[]_

Adey..

You don't believe God exists? if your answer is yes then I would like to have a go at convincing you.

Please let me know.

Far eastern Asian e.g china, belief systems predate islam by a long way and also dont compliment the quran at all, and yet they still made many scientific, mathematical advances.

It is always the lost that need my guidance

from point A to point B in a day is a miracle. think about it. you need no one to tell you of miracles your being alive alone tells it all.

Are you serious? Anyone can memorise any piece of writing, yes including the Quran. The point is, a non-muslim has no motivation to even bother. That was, putting this as nicely as I can, a really ignorant comment, and it certainly is not a miracle. It's people like you who discredit any kind of informed argument a muslim might be able to make, because the rest of us are already sick of stupid statements like that.

Right and Wrong

Good and Bad

High and Low

similary every coin has 2 sides....and The beauty lies in How you balance.

Why would anyone who isn't a muslim want to memorize it by heart?

who were reading Quran, using it for materialistic benefits BUT don't believe in Allah or his commands, condsidering these a work of Human and NOT words of Allah (SWT).

It benefits to all but note that only a muslim can memories the whole Quraan by Heart and an open challenge for all non-believers to try it. This is what we called a miracle of Quraan.

Well as I've heard many times before, if the Dark ages hadn't of happened Shakespeare would have been writing his plays on a lap top.

But pre-islam the egyptions were able to build using maths, trigonmetry etc developed from their pagan beliefs of worshipping the stars. Supposedly this was about the same time as aztecs etc were building their 'pyramid temples' and also worshipping the stars.

Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)

To the people who don't believe in free speech - stop posting ;)

bowling score of 3 games in a row....?

i do know how well behaved you are and what a Polite Canadian bandit beauty you are. H.E. to you :/

will wait for it

of the True Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God, not God, for sure! But it is also in the Bible that Jesus is to be worship, but again, not as God. There is only one God, the Father, there could never be anyone!

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

We're having a polite discussion, I don't see why we should behave?

dont worry will give you a call when i am going.

been looooooooooooooooooong time

OR

Is this one more of such threats to keep quiet.

Mentioned it 100000 times before also, WHEN ONE DOES NOT HAVE LOGICAL REASON TO COUNTER - THERE COMES THREATS & ILLOGICAL NON ISSUES in reply

Or will blow your heads with

sdk your with bowling ball

Gypsy you are just a piece of cake :D

LOL. Sorry. I was looking for a real miracle I guess. :P

LOL gypsy - you are taking it literally.

I meant the discussion for and against relationship between science-Islam, not exactly this very discussion.

Well if the Quran did predict that in April of the year 2009 a group of about 10 people would debate islam in a forum topic about miracles on www.qatarliving.com, well, then I would have to be convinced. :P

I really pity people having such thoughts and still are so adamant in prooving others wrong.

In one of the posts above by master mas, he says even this argument is written in the book (subject of his post is "I understand")

Well skdkak the more I listen to people on this forum the more I'm convinced the entire purpose of Islam is to erase the 6000 years of civilization before the Quran was written. If this is what people are taught in schools here, then I feel very very sorry for them.

NOSTRADAMUS was a miracle.

Now this guy did not read any religious book to predict what all he has predicted.

As regards science before Islam came into being (sarcasm):

- People used to fight in wars with stones.

- We all used to eat raw meat and raw vegetables.

- There were no houses to live in, everyone was living in caves.

- civilisation used to die because of cold and clough as there was no medicine.

- etc

- etc

- etc

If the above is not true, who guided people before 1400 years to invent wheel, fire, build ships, houses, bridges, and other monuments and other achievements.

LOL Gypsy, liked your post regarding human race being insane and mentally unbalanced before Quran was written.

but christians believes Him as son of God....

Yes, my comments are more or less same as I believe in Islam (Faith related factors are fixed and no possible amendments), if you feel otherwise, provide with more knowledge about your religion.

In general, you must have seen that Muslims are very strong like Rock on their faith (Qu'ran and Sunnah) and not ready to get into healthy arguments/debates but stick to their FAITHS, mainly due to least knowledge about Other Religions and no thorough historical knowledge about their own religion.

The strength of my faith increases when I see weaknesses & corruptions in all other religions. Please don't feel offended.

Like GB Shaw said "Islam is the Best religion and had worst followers", A biggest hypocrite as if He believes that Islam is the best religion, he would have accepted Islam first.

Infact, He wanted to simply say that 'Muslims are the worst people', he could not say so, that's why he twisted his sentence.

Anyways, I am not trying to show off my knowledge and I am Not a Islamic scholar but an ordinary muslim born and brought up in Bombay (India), had several close friends (educated from catholic convent schools), who were all from different communities, debate on Religion.

Open up the Think Tank, take care.

ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST!

Your quote "I don't think the Jews had much to do with it. Christianity hasn't been much influenced by Judaism since the first century C.E. with the destruction of the Temple and the Jewish Diaspora. At the end of the first century the Jews living in the Roman Empire expelled the Christians from their synagogues" unquote..

VB: Why christianity not influenced by Judaism...bcoz...as per Islamic instructions....

whenever the latest messenger sent to the people, the old testaments/commandments to be discarded (judaism) and the new rules or instructions to be followed (Islam)...From Abraham....then Jesus and then Prophet Muhammed, peace be upon them, the LAST messenger of Allah to followed Now till the Day of Judgment.

During post Jesus days; Jews and christians were always fighting. In order to divert the focus of christians from Jews, Jew priests sabotaged among christians and created the theory of 3 different GOD among christians (God, Father, Mother and Son).....

Even today, we know they are still working on their common objectives. For more information, Read Qu'ran with its meaning to understand their characteristics in Surah "The Cow".....

why are jews always blamed for everything?:-)

kadaut...

Well, VB, since Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians are 19th century American creations I don't think the Jews had much to do with it. Christianity hasn't been much influenced by Judaism since the first century C.E. with the destruction of the Temple and the Jewish Diaspora. At the end of the first century the Jews living in the Roman Empire expelled the Christians from their synagogues over such issues as the sabbath, keeping kosher and, yes, of course, the divinity of Jesus.

Mandi

I knew that there were groups following different doctorine within christians; which were sabotaged and created by Jews to let them fight among themselves.

LIVING IN QATAR

See you all in Easter sunday

VB, we Christians believe Jesus to BE God. God incarnate, meaning appearing in human form to live, walk, eat, die. God, the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are three persons, one God. All Trinitarian Christians believe this. The few that don't but still call themselves Christian are Mormons, Jehovah's Winesses and (obviously) Unitarians.

Mandi

Ooops, MD, when Jesus said to Pilate, "You have said so," (as it appears in Matthew, Mark and Luke, John has a slightly different version as is so often the case) he was responding to the charge, "Are you the King of the Jews."

Mandi

here in Qatar, Driving from work to home (Viceversa) and have a kiss to your wife when you leave or arrive are already a miracle.

__________________________________________

Life is short, so try to make it long!

Well I don't believe in destiny and I was not blaming anyone. This is my decision as , to quote you, I "seek, search and analyse ... the path to identify the creator of this Universe"

"Please don't blame God for making you 'Aethist'"

Hmmmm....

How do you square this with your previous statement?:

"HE can turn your hearts and provide HIDAYAH ONLY if HE WISHES..." ?

That is the trouble with all religions - they're not consistent.

Peace

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

VB, Jesus never said that he was the "son of God". When asked before the trial, he answered: "You said this." You better study the matter before you come up with false arguments!! But I noticed that this is a typical feature of you, anyway.

Your quote

"other people came up with this stuff before Mohammed your answer is that they are an earlier Messenger of Allah? Even if they believed in Zeus, Hera and Aphrodite?"

VB: Even Christian claims that Jesus claimed to be God, Son of God or holy spirit and he is christian? which Islam rejects.

However Qu'ran claimed that Essa (Jesus), Ebrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses) and all messengers were Muslim and sent to the Universe to spread the common religion of PEACE called Islam...

All these religions were formed and created post these messengers left like we know Judaism and Christianity.

ADEY : Please don't blame God for making you 'Aethist', I expect this answer from you as always, whenever the people discuss about 'Destiny', they blame GOD for their misfortune and bad luck.....

We, being humans are expected to seek, search and analyse in the path to identify the creator of this Universe with Open Hearts and ask/seek for the Right and Straight path, what HE has asked us to Follow....

I am very SURE if asked and seeked with true belief in GOD, You will get enlightened Insha Allah One day, that was my closing statement to Gypsy last time.

Hope you got the answer. ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST!

not to be taken as a serious response:

&feature=player_embedded

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Please note that it is the matter of heart, as I always say....and yes, they have failed (in your views) bcoz it is ONLY in the hands of Allah, and NOT within the capacity of messengers to bring the whole world at one platform!!!

Allah has informed all his messengers (PBUT) to do their jobs of Passing HIS messages to the People and to bring these people on the RIGHT And STRAIGHT path is HIS JOB,

HE can turn your hearts and provide HIDAYAH ONLY if HE WISHES.....

I reitreat that if this would be in the hands of messengers then Prophet NUH (Noah)'s son won't have died as non-believer (drowned under the water) and the same case was with Prophet Muhammed's (peace be upon Him) beloved uncle.

So my dear friends, we are doing our job of passing the messages of Allah, if you think your knowledge and intelligence is everything then we too are helpless...

Hope am clear.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

what miracle?

No Miss X, haven't you realized, the entire human race was apprantely severely mentally retarded before the Quran was written.

Wow is this debate not getting old to anyone? It's like religious people are unable to convert people using the traditional methods of threats of eternal damnation and so forth anymore, so have resorted to trying to use science to try and prove that God exists. They make comments about how the world works in perfect harmony, and that that is 100% proof of God. When really it's proof that the world works in perfect harmony and nothing else. It's like they have a severe lack of understanding of what science and proof actually is. Not one person has ever been able to copy and paste a verse out of the Quran that has shown some kind of incredible insight or unbelievably advanced information. The fact that rain only appears when clouds are around is certainly not some privileged information, but rather an accurate observation which I would hope would be apparent to anyone after a few experiences of rain.

miracle is everywhere just let your self to believe... :)

.

.

.

KEEP MOVING!!!

that Aristotle, Socrates and Plato's were not genius and accepted by Islam....

Infact, Prophet Mohammed was the LAST messenger of Allah on Universe....there were around or over 124000 messengers was sent by Allah to spread the religion of Islam; these genuises could be and quite sure inspired by earlier messengers of Allah, sent in the ancient period starting from Adam (PBUH -father of all human beings).

it is purely based on mythology (myth, fictions), which is also proved if you know about the case of 'Ramsetu' in south India, which is non-existent.

I noticed some deity in India has resemblance (in life) with prophets of Allah, who came long before Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him). Like Jesus is prophet in Islam and God in Christianity. Hindu prays to certain deity, who were might be earlier prophets of Allah but made God by Hindus (such as Krishna, Guru Nanak, Saibaba, etc).

secondly, if you read the stories told in "Holy Quraan' are mostly proven historically and scientifically.

That's is the reason, I always request all Readers and Qler's to let use and apply personal efforts to learn and read Quran with its meanings to understand and differntiate between the facts and fictions.

Uh, yeah, gypsy, Allah's ways are miracolous.

It's "human heritage". There is no copyright on it.

So VB, when confronted with the fact that other people came up with this stuff before Mohammed your answer is that they are an earlier Messenger of Allah? Even if they believed in Zeus, Hera and Aphrodite?

I'm not upset :)

So you are saying - god made me an atheist?

Maybe I do have a lot to thank him for then.

Peace

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Adam, who?

Believe it or not VB I studied the Old Testament and New Testament both in Sunday School and in High School and University, I'm well aware of it's teachings.

Look up people like Aristotle, Socrates and Plato Master Mas. Learn about ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece and Rome, and you will see that there's nothing new in the Quran. A quick google search should find you all the answers you need.

"These guys need a messenger to show them miracles / maujizah's to prove that Allah is One and the lord of all creations....Like Essa and Mosa (Peace Be Upon Them) had shown."

You assume that we are ignorant of the 3 Abrahamic faiths?

I, for one, reject them from a position of study - so Mosa, Essa and Mohammad did their best, but in my case they failed.

Nothing more to do.

And you can't send another prophet as your belief cannot justify that.

Peace

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

our belief in our religion is enough for us.....we don't need any scientic proofs to confirm, Alhamdullilah, we born in a muslim family!

These guys need a messenger to show them miracles / maujizah's to prove that Allah is One and the lord of all creations....Like Essa and Mosa (Peace Be Upon Them) had shown.

I believe in Miracles

You came along..

You sexy thing..

-----------------

HE WHO DARES WINS

You see the problem is is that you have been brought up a Muslim in an Islamic tradition where you have been told that the Qu'ran itself is a miracle and that you are forbidden to question its claims - namely that it is miraculous revelation.

As someone who has not had that pressure to conform I can see nothing miraculous in it, and as Gypsy said, the claims of unknowable scientific knowledge are just wrong - it is vague and previously known for a thousand years or so.

Your point about the prophet being illiterate is again spurious; most people were, nothing special in that... indeed he was a very successful trader who had traveled widely.....he was an intelligent man.

If you wish to believe, then fine, well done, no one here will try to force you to un-believe. But if you put up points for debate you will get counter arguments - as long as they remain respectful, that's fine to.

I do not come from a position of ignorance in these matters, if I believed in the assertions outlined in the website you linked to I would be a Muslim - but I don't so I am not, as are 80% of the world's population.

Peace

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Gypsy,

u saying these things were known before Quran..?

provide source please.

enlightenment....

If they were trying to show that Science (and Technology) are different from religion, yes that is surely the case.

Science can only tell us "How the Universe Works ?" and Technology (i.e. Applied science), makes use of the answers provided by Science to improve the lives of human beings.

But Science cannot answer the question "Why the Universe works the way it does ?", "What is the purpose of this Universe ?",

"Is there a purpose at all ?", "Is there anything beyond, something that we cannot perceive ?",

"Is Morality relative or there are absolute defintions of good and evil ?"

These are all questions that sicentists will claim are the domain of metaphysics (not physics), and non-scientists will say are questions of spirituality or religion.

So you see Science and Religion and trying to answer different questions, and hence cannot be the same.

Read the following thread and see my comments....

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/409692?page=3

The far eastern religons buddhism etc pre-date islam/judaism/christianity by quite a long way, weren't they just being copied and expanded?

The problem is when religion has in the past pretended to be scientifc, religious scholars said the earth was the centre of the universe, it isn't. They said the world was flat, it isn't. They said man cannot fly, he can. They said god was in the atmsophere, he obviuosly isnt.

It should stay in the 'faith' zone.

Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)

What do they teach people in schools and university's here?? There is absolutely nothing in the Quran that was not already a well known theory at the time.

ok,i admit that the subject of this threat is not relevant and meant to get u to click it..

some of you still didn't get me. the miracle here is the Quran itself.

you said if a miracle can be explained scientifically then it's a miracle anymore..

How do you explain that the Quran came to know all of these facts many years ago, which science was only able to confirm them these days.?

the site i gave you only gives few examples of many of these facts.

People say Prophet Mohammed is the author of the Quran..

Did you know that the Prophet didn’t know how to read or write.?

There is no way he could’ve learned all that by himself.

here some examples of things mentioned in Quran and there’s no way that a human however genius he is to know these by himself without the use of modern technologies that we have today.

.

1.Creation of the universe (The big bang) mentioned in Quran.

http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=78&select_page=3

http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=360

.

2. http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=248&select_page=6

.

3. The Birth of the Human being steps

http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=56&select_page=6

if i only had the time Heero_yuy2....

if i only had the time..

These are some of the reasons why you would never make me convert to Islam. I had already gained as much knowledge in my whole life and you would just tell me now that "Mekka is the center of the universe"??

It's like 'undoing' everything I've learned from school. We already had the 'trouble' with the Galileo-Copernicus thing back then and this 'new' knowledge will stir up more manure on me.

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

miracles cannot be explained by science, they are Gods work.

Science and God are different. They are not the same.

You're kidding yourself.

I just had an enlightenment.. LOL .. a sort of worth mentioning in this thread:

Science or no science: If believers (of all religions and faiths) really REALLY REALLY believe in God, then everything in this universe is by him/her (GOD) only.

Therotically speaking then even science. Assuming my theory is correct - then GOD alone must have decided when to disclose natures secrets to human kind. Believe me, even before islam was preached on the face of this earth, living beings did and knew a TON of things, so where does religion need scientific proof to prove anything.

BEST PART OF MY THEORY IS "SINCE WHEN DID GOD NEEDED SUPPORT OF SCIENCE TO PROCLAIM HIM AS GOD".

So, you call Einstein a Miracle because of his Theory of Relativity and the formula E=mc2 which were only proven to be true by scientists only after he died, and knowing that he was thought to be dumb and later on provided the world with a theory that people at his time weren't able to comprehend?

And Galileo proving the Gravitational force a miracle? The Pythagorean theorem which was only able to be solved by Mathematecians after thousand year it was developed?

There is no such thing as Miracle. It was a theory by people who got bored at staring at nothingness and came up with a theory.

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

watch this!!!!! LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL :D :D :D

Cures toothache,

cures flu in 15 mins

pays your bills

and gives you great cancer test results!!!!!! (Please note, it doesn't work if you already have cancer....:D )

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

uray pay kitdi naglaad, uray pay kitdi kipikipit iti langa na, agragsak ka ta isu ti inprswa ni apu para kenka.awan tallikud-awan ti babawi, ada pasurong ken kabig laeng.

How did I end up getting mentioned in this thread?

I believe in things we simply don't have answers for yet, and I believe in looking for those answers.

if one believed in miracles, you were just using it as a front to proselytize.

I have read about Islam long and hard, as I have on other religions and I guarantee that if you can find me one cast iron proof of a gods existence I will publically bring this message to the world all the days of my life.

Trouble is no one ever has in my case.

And all religions say something about people not believing them - it's a convenient way to distract the 'believer' from questioning the validity and authority of said religion.

So ball is in your court - convince me.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

you can't convince everyone.. as far as im concerned, we can all believe in whatever we want to believe in...

Do u want a research done as to what and when other religions did prove what all???

a bunch of most intelligent people on QL.....leave them in their own scienitific world...

Skd....it is not my shayri some islamic scholar has said these words....

i understand Victor..

trying.. there r many examples.. too many that i can make them shut up & just read... but still they will not be convinced that Quran is words of god.. because it was also mentioned in Quran that this will happen.. whatever proves you provide them they will still deny that somehow.. i don't remember the exact verse sorry..

LOL VB,

i liked the last three words of your shairy

you are explaining to wrong heads buddy....(well determined, super intelligence guys worshipping their Brains/intellectual)

"Khuda jab deen leta hain Akal bhi Cheen leta hain...."

Finally, you may say the last verse of Surah Kaafirun....

"Lakum dinukum valeaydin!"

Well MD, I am not trying to point another subject here but only making master_mas understand that relationship between miracles - Islam - Science are as good as they have relationship in any other religion / culture down the written & non written history of this planet.

animals can prfedict earth quicks / sunamis etc etc etc

they dont need science to understand

The "bodies of knowledge", skdkak, are logically consistent. Nothing is missing. However, they do not claim to be true. Maybe that is the greatest mistake people make when judging science against religion. Science only claims to be scientific.

You beat me to it.

master_mas

The passage you quoted says nothing about the formation of rain.

Don't you think that people had figured out long before the Qu'ran that dark clouds gave forth rain? Even animals can predict when it's going to rain.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Here is an example of how an important Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad Gita, might regard modern science. There is a chapter of the Gita is entitled, Sankhya Yoga. The word "sankhya" means “counting,” “enumeration,” or “analysis.” In the Gita there is a simple form of "analysis" that classifies matter into eight constituent elements: earth, water, fire, air, space, mind, intelligence and ego. This is essentially a periodic table and an excellent example of early science or what used to be called natural philosophy. Even before the Gita, Hindu thinkers had taken this theme of “counting” and developed it into one of the six traditional philosophies of ancient India called Saankhya. From the perspective of Bhagavad Gita, it is fair to say that modern science is simply a highly detailed analysis of matter and so, in this sense, there is no conflict between the Gita and science. Modern science is simply more of what ancient Hindu thinkers had been doing for millennia, but where the Gita would disagree with modern science is that modern science does not go far enough in its analysis of reality. Vedic "science" is not simply about the mere analysis of matter, but it also includes the analysis soul and God. In other words, it includes metaphysical reality as well as physical reality. The sankhya of the Gita therefore includes an analysis of physical reality as well as a spiritual reality. At present, modern science only accepts physical reality as its domain of study, but the call from the Gita is that ordinary science should also explore the metaphysical dimensions of life and so become a complete form of sankhya. But an objection can be made that science does not need to include such metaphysical issues as the soul and God because philosophy and theology already do this. I think the answer from the Gita would be that physical reality and spiritual reality are ultimately inseparable, and therefore, any study of one that omits the presence of the other will create a false or incomplete body of knowledge.........

http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Hindu%20Primer/hinduismandscience.html

"According to this, the formation of rain takes place in three stages. First, the "raw material" of rain rises up into the air with the wind. Later, clouds are formed, and finally raindrops appear."

If you call this a 'scientific' explanation then you are a poor mind. This is also guessing. Where is there any 'science' involved?

Read the linked articles....

READ THIS AS WELL

http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/Allahs_miracles_of_the_quran/Allahs_miracles_of_the_quran.php

There can be miracles, when you believe... *singing*

*skipping*

/Think I've lost some of me marbles here... :0)

i am just pointing out that the Quran is the true words of god..

Many recent scientific discoveries was mentioned in Quran many years ago & no human could've known this that time..

..

example:

How rain forms remained a great mystery for a long time. Only after weather radar was invented was it possible to discover the stages by which rain is formed.

According to this, the formation of rain takes place in three stages. First, the "raw material" of rain rises up into the air with the wind. Later, clouds are formed, and finally raindrops appear.

The Qur'an's account of the formation of rain refers exactly to this process. In one verse, this formation is described in this way:

(It is God Who sends the winds which stir up clouds which He spreads about the sky however He wills. He forms them into dark clumps and you see the rain come pouring out from the middle of them. When He makes it fall on those of His slaves He wills, they rejoice.) (The Qur'an, 30:48)

The closest to modern physics is found in the gospel of John (200 AD). "In the beginning was the word". If you translate "word" into "string of information" you are right within modern physics!

Religious people split into three main groups when faced with science. I shall label them the "know-nothings", the "know-alls", and the "no-contests". I suspect that Dr John Habgood, the Archbishop of York, probably belongs to the third of these groups, so I shall begin with them.

The "no-contests" are rightly reconciled to the fact that religion cannot compete with science on its own ground. They think there is no contest between science and religion, because they are simply about different things. the biblical account of the origin of the universe (the origin of life, the diversity of species, the origin of man) -- all those things are now known to be untrue.

The "no-contests" have no trouble with this: they regard it as naive in the extreme, almost bad taste to ask of a biblical story, is it true? True, they say, true? Of course it isn't true in any crude literal sense. Science and religion are not competing for the same territory. They are about different things. They are equally true, but in their different ways.

A favourite and thoroughly meaningless phrase is "religious dimension". You meet this in statements such as "science is all very well as far as it goes, but it leaves out the religious dimension".

The "know-nothings", or fundamentalists, are in one way more honest. They are true to history. They recognize that until recently one of religion's main functions was scientific: the explanation of existence, of the universe, of life. Historically, most religions have had or even been a cosmology and a biology. I suspect that today if you asked people to justify their belief in God, the dominant reason would be scientific. Most people, I believe, think that you need a God to explain the existence of the world, and especially the existence of life. They are wrong, but our education system is such that many people don't know it.

They are also true to history because you can't escape the scientific implications of religion. A universe with a God would like quite different from a universe without one. A physics, a biology where there is a God is bound to look different. So the most basic claims of religion are scientific. Religion is a scientific theory.

I am sometimes accused of arrogant intolerance in my treatment of creationists. Of course arrogance is an unpleasant characteristic, and I should hate to be thought arrogant in a general way. But there are limits! To get some idea of what it is like being a professional student of evolution, asked to have a serious debate with creationists, the following comparison is a fair one. Imagine yourself a classical scholar who has spent a lifetime studying Roman history in all its rich detail. Now somebody comes along, with a degree in marine engineering or mediaeval musicology, and tries to argue that the Romans never existed. Wouldn't you find it hard to suppress your impatience? And mightn't it look a bit like arrogance?

My third group, the "know-alls" (I unkindly name them that because I find their position patronising), think religion is good for people, perhaps good for society. Perhaps good because it consoles them in death or bereavement, perhaps because it provides a moral code.

Whether or not the actual beliefs of the religion are true doesn't matter. Maybe there isn't a God; we educated people know there is precious little evidence for one, let alone for ideas such as the Virgin birth or the Resurrection. but the uneducated masses need a God to keep them out of mischief or to comfort them in bereavement. The little matter of God's probably non-existence can be brushed to one side in the interest of greater social good. I need say not more about the "know-alls" because they wouldn't claim to have anything to contribute to scientific truth.

Is God a Superstring?

I shall now return to the "no-contests". The argument they mount is certainly worth serious examination, but I think that we shall find it has little more merit than those of the other groups.

God is not an old man with a white beard in the sky. Right then, what is God? And now come the weasel words. these are very variable. "God is not out there, he is in all of us." God is the ground of all being." "God is the essence of life." "God is the universe." "Don't you believe in the universe?" "Of course I believe in the universe." "Then you believe in God." "God is love, don't you believe in love?" "Right, then you believe in God?"

Modern physicists sometimes wax a bit mystical when they contemplate questions such as why the big bang happened when it did, why the laws of physics are these laws and not those laws, why the universe exists at all, and so on. Sometimes physicists may resort to saying that there is an inner core of mystery that we don't understand, and perhaps never can; and they may then say that perhaps this inner core of mystery is another name for God. Or in Stephen Hawkings's words, if we understand these things, we shall perhaps "know the mind of God."

The trouble is that God in this sophisticated, physicist's sense bears no resemblance to the God of the Bible or any other religion. If a physicist says God is another name for Planck's constant, or God is a superstring, we should take it as a picturesque metaphorical way of saying that the nature of superstrings or the value of Planck's constant is a profound mystery. It has obviously not the smallest connection with a being capable of forgiving sins, a being who might listen to prayers, who cares about whether or not the Sabbath begins at 5pm or 6pm, whether you wear a veil or have a bit of arm showing; and no connection whatever with a being capable of imposing a death penalty on His son to expiate the sins of the world before and after he was born.

The Fabulous Bible

The same is true of attempts to identify the big bang of modern cosmology with the myth of Genesis. There is only an utterly trivial resemblance between the sophisticated conceptions of modern physics, and the creation myths of the Babylonians and the Jews that we have inherited......

http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/1994-12religion.shtml

On the miracle of virgin birth:

"Which is more likely:

That the whole natural order is suspended? Or that a Jewish minx should tell a lie?"

attributed to David Hume

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

.

.

.

.Do you believe in miracles ?

yez, no doubt...

.

iv experienced it a couple of time....

.

.

.that's all......

.

Miracle is almost another word for religion.

For once one witnesses a miracle,

The worship of God follows effortlessly.

What is a Miracle?

The term miracle can be simply defined as "that which causes wonder." A miracle is something that contradicts or is beyond ordinary experience, and is caused by some kind of supernatural force or being--God or a God. In one view of miracles, God suspends the laws of nature to produce an astonishing happening. In the other, a miracle is an effect in our world of the natural forces of a higher plane of reality. The so-called "science" of today has limited its knowledge by rejecting a priori any reality beyond that perceived by the physical body's five senses

Miracles in Other Religions

All religions accept miracles, but accord them greater or lesser importance. Within Buddhism, for example, miraculous healings occurred among the general population at the moment of Buddha's birth. Later in life he raised the dead, healed incurable diseases and walked across the mile-wide Ganges. The Jews have many miracles described in the Torah, especially Moses' parting the Red Sea as he led his people out of slavery in Egypt. The phenomenon is celebrated to this day during Passover.

Islam assumes Allah can do miracles, and popular Muslim religion abounds in miracles both of the prophet Mohammed and of wonder-working saints. Mohammed himself rejected proving his faith by miracles, saying his only miracle was the Koran itself. Christianity is based upon a miracle, specifically the resurrection of Jesus Christ after his crucifixion on the cross. The theological centrality of this particular miracle for Christianity is unique among religions. Catholics and Protestants testify in modern times to tears being shed by icons of their saints and many unexplained healings. The founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak, first gained public attention when he caused a dry water reservoir in drought-stricken Amritsar to be filled with water. Many converted to his new faith as a result.

The ancient sage Zoroaster was born of a virgin mother and his birth heralded by a star in the sky. With his spiritual power he strived for much of his life in promoting his new faith. Finally he cured the king's favorite horse of paralysis and gained the entire royal household (and later the kingdom) as converts. Confucianism and Taoism place limited importance on miracles, but accept their existence. The Jains, too, place no particular stress on miracles, though some are associated with their saint, Mahavira. The Japanese Shinto religion is miraculous in that it traces its origins to the Sun Goddess as the Grandmother of the first emperor. He received from Her the Three Sacred Treasures: a mirror, a sword and jewels, which to this day are the most hallowed possessions of the Japanese Imperial family.

The tribal religions worldwide remain replete with miraculous happenings. Anthropologist Margaret Mead personally testified to the existence of "special supernatural powers" among the many tribes she studied and advocated additional systematic research.

Ok I'll bite,

What particular miracles are you referring to? I skimmed over the site you linked to but could not see anything about miracles being scientifically proven. I am not going to trawl through the whole site.

Could you give specific miracles with their specific links If you want a debate, or is this just a promotional campaign in which you are not prepared to have the veracity of your beliefs challenged?

By definition a miracle is an event that alters the state and laws of the natural world: if science can prove the reason of a miracle, then by that very proof, it is no longer a miracle

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Being here in this world is already a miracle.

-------------------------------

http://qatarslife.blogspot.com/

don't just say that..

read some of them from the site i posted...

Due to chance,probability and quantum mechanics which are beyond the lamens comprehension anything is possible.

Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)

I only believe in science… see most of those religious “Miracles” can find a proper explanations, the weird think none of them has been proofed!!

as far as i know,the moment we open our eyes in the morning,i considered as a huge miracles from above...

living this wonderful world everyday, waking up every morning is already a miracle....

because they have many wives!

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

Miracle .....

Ya the day i was born was a big miracle to the society and they named me as Miracle BOY ...:)

I believe in myself...