World Perceptions of Islam

"Yes, history is biased, but the belief that Islam(Democracy) was not

spread by the sword (Bullet) when the (US & its gang)Arabs burst out of

the Middle East(West) in their extremely successful military campaigns

is silly in the extreme. It is nothing to be ashamed off, they were a

conquering people after all and took their belief systems (Democracy)

with them as would any conquerers. To deny it(or to call it for peace)

is a matter of shame"

Sounds familiar to whats happening now - doesnt it?

Belief systems and all the perks that go along with it!!!!!!!!!!! - LOL!!!

(AH!!! Hypocracy lies in democracy)

Tell me that first and then give ur opinions abt Islam?

Come lets have S** and screw americans .......Any man who luks fair will get screwed.....

He becomes a terrorist......All are victims of brainwashing..Why>> Money Money Money without that these people cant survive they loath their home country....... And they are the greediest; .......

HARI OM Come and convert to Hinduism I will give u an insight into a clean religion

Yes, history is biased, but the belief that Islam was not spread by the sword when the Arabs burst out of the Middle East in their extremely successful military campaigns is silly in the extreme. It is nothing to be ashamed off, they were a conquering people after all and took their belief systems with them as would any conquerers. To deny it is a matter of shame.

i read somewhere once ... history is always biased when it reaches to new eras... :)

and i dont want you to agree with it... you can live with what you belive in.

can you correct me if i am wrong...in saying that... mostly we dont like to step back from things/thoughts which we inherit from family, religion or society/culture? and that might be one of the reason that you both having such disagreement?

socrates died coz... his time was over. he died for democracy or for opposing democracy... i dont think it will help you anyway.

so the topic was...mmm... what was it???

When you're through changing, you're through.

And so will i if i dont reach home soon

Keep up the discussion

Babye 4 real

read it again

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/socrates.htm

"Corrupting the youth with new ideas"

What new ideas dear? - remember the traitors who were his students

The last one's the best

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-233642/Socrates

Forget it

u win i lose

If u people cannot see the reason why he was put to trial then i dont have the need for any further discussions with u

Atleast i have proved that he was against democracy

Babye

She is right, he had anti-democratic views that people disliked him for, but that's not why he was executed.

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By the way the first link goes something like this

"Socrates was 70 years old and familiar to most Athenians. His anti-democratic views had turned many in the city against him. Two of his students, Alcibiades and Critias, had twice briefly overthrown the democratic government of the city, instituting a reign of terror in which thousands of citizens were deprived of their property and either banished from the city or executed."

And the second link from the BBC follows on the same lines

But anyway u got the straight A's so u must be right

I cud give u quotes but then i guessu wudnt believe them

I will give u links so that u urself can read them

But please dont disqualify ur credentials by speaking on topics u dont know anything about

Here are the links

1 - http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/socrates.htm

2 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/greeks/greekcritics_04.shtml

It's ok, my post I don't care. I just got back from Greece and it's kind of cool to discuss it. :)

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should we?

When you're through changing, you're through.

got a conflict between it's followers ... It is hard to say that these conflicts would effect the look of the people to a specific religion as much as effecting the relations between these groups ... Everyone can see what is happening in Iraq ... this has nothing to do with Islam or the religion because the people are choosing what to do and kill the others and fight in the name of the religion while it is totally wrong and not acceptable.

We people forgot about the basics of our religions, get to the the far away parts of it and grab it and forget what is much important than that.

We forgot the common sense which had no conflict with the religion and followed our own desires, created our own believes, religion and live by that, believe in that and what was the result? A huge conflict between the communities and societies and we are all losing ...

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment. (Gautama Buddha)

Not ideals

Do u think representation is complete with anything less then 100%

I am only saying that Democracy fails if everyone isnt represented

And then too the representation u get is filled with all the crap known to man

No wonder we have crusaders like Mr. George BUsh coming to the fore

Your signature line quotes Socrates, who was the staunchest opposer of Democracy

He went to his death for this

Its not me who says that the athenians were a minority in their own land,

Pericles instituted laws which demanded that both parents be Athenian citizens. So, in reality, the great democracy of Periclean Athens was in reality only a very small minority of the people living in Athens.

Every citizen on an average had 3 slaves. these slaves didnt enjoy the rights of a normal citizen - hence we have a majority of non athenians to athenians (BORN FREE to be precise)

So all the rights of people are clearly reflected in a 54% turnout?

columbus day for example - LOL!

Of course not they were slaves.

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What i mean is the slaves in athens didnt have the right to vote (greeks or otherwise)

Hmmm, not spread by the sword, eh? Better go check that, or even better, go to the festivals in Spain to where this day they re-enact the Arab invasions.

 But Greece wasn't Greece then, it was a bunch of different city-states and countries, so only people of Athens could vote in the Athenian democracy.  IT makes perfect sense because why would you let a Spartan vote for something in Athens?

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The all of greece wasnt a democracy if u know what i mean. And a fellow greek didnt enjoy the rights of a normal athenian.

representation differs!

 I know that, but a very big portion were also Greeks taken from other Greek islands and states, so they were Greek but not ATHENIAN. 

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I am talking about the greeks - the founders of democracy

Greeks didnt use greek slaves only -there were slaves who were brought in through wars, piracy; banditry and international trade

 Yes but the slaves were usually Greeks themselves....and are you sure you are getting your history right, because it seems to me you have Greek society/democracy and Roman society/democracy confused. 

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Ever heard of the revolts by the slaves who outnumbered their masters by atleast 4 to 1 ( i dont remember the exact figure)

PM u gotta be kidding me

The greeks were a minority in their own country

and the democracy which has its basis in theright to havea say in the decision making process was given to a few.

The same goes for any democratic country today

First of all democracy according to me fails unless there is a 100% turnout because there are always people who are undecided or just dont feel that either of the representatives are going to represent them correctly

Athenian democracy was direct and in-your-face. To make it as participatory as possible, most officials and all jurymen were selected by lot, Athenian women, were totally excluded & The citizen body was a closed political elite

But apart from that the principal defect of democracy is

what it preaches - freedom for all

I mean any fool can speak - why should every view be heard

opinions of all citizens are not going to be equal in value 

There are sadist killers, rapists, drug dealers and corrupt politicians who are having a say in the most important decision of all - formation of the government

 The Greeks were a minority in their own country?? Huh?

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You are a gentleman of profound statements.

Moslems are like all other religions, divided into more than one, and fighting each other,

i think that religion isn't the real motive that drives ppl now, its a cover for many things, bad or good. 

Hi All,

Its such a good idea to discuses the Headline of the Debate, and to add new Dimensions of the issue where many simple people can't see it clear spicaly in this topic,

Sunni and Shiee are living since ages and ages in peace together they even get marred from each others so ask your self this question, Why now theirs a conflict? this conflict is only serve the Israeli-American Interests, the Zionist lobby make it exist the same lobby which have its logo on the American Dollars, and for bad the leaders, presidents and kings of the middle east follow the instructions, and feed this conflict, who is the real winner if a war start between Sunni and Shiee in the Area???? is'nt the same one who need Arab nation divided to Semi-countries???

I read through the threads and I realized when some people remark that Islam  in not peaceful they forget their are many countries that Muslims are in the majority and their is no Shia Sunni violence.  Media always portrays the bad side of everything and brings religion into conflicts when it doesn't really exist, just an easy place to put blame as to why man screws UP.

God must be laughing at us?

fact is that after the dead of Holy Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) muslims divided into 2 main groups .. one the followers of Holy Prophet and His Family members (Fatima -Daughter, Ali - Son in Law and husband of Fatima, Hassan & Hussain - Grand sons & sons of Ali & Fatima (AS)) they are known Shias

And they consider them as Infallibles. Also most of the Shais (SYED Families roots comes from the Family of Holy Prophet) and Some root can be found in Sunnis too.

The difference start from the following sayings of Holy Prophet and Shias follows the follows this hadith very strongly  :

“I am about to answer the call (of death). Verily, I leave behind two

precious things (thaqalayn) amongst you: the Book of Allah and my Ahl

al-Bayt. Verily, the two will never separate until they come back to me

by the side of the Pond.”

Holy Prophet means to say that if you (Muslims) leave one of them you will be divided into group and will be beaten by enimies !!  which we are experiening today !

Other group who followed Sahabas (companion of Holy Prophet pbuh) Umar, Abu Baker Usman and Ali (Sunni consider Ali as their 4th Caliph and do not consider Ali as Infalliable) and other Sahabas... and majority of Sunnis follows the sayings of 1st three Sahabas mainly.

This is the main cause of indifferences within Shia and Sunni Muslims ... Although there are some Sunnis who follows the saying of Ahlylil Bait (Family of Holy Prophet ) and consider them infalliables .... but since Sunni themselves are divided into several sects and most of them differ from each others in terms of following the hadith (sayings of Holy Prophet).

To put on record, all the Family members of Holy Prophet were Martyr (Murdered by Muslims) for the control of Power during those times .... 

Those Muslims who bore the seeds of hatered, today it has become a huge tree !! 

Today Shai mourn those Martyr and Most of the Sunnis don't !!

These are the major indifferences among Muslims. Both Sects have strong believe in oness of Allah, His Holy Book "Quran" and last Prophet "Mohammad (PBUH)" Also five pillars of Islam, Prayers, Fasting, Eid etc.. everything is same .. only major dispute is follwing the sayings of Ahylil Bait OR Sahabas !!

Also there are some Sunnis and Shias who are striving for Unity and calls each others as Brothers in Islam.. but few sunnis (Wahabis) do not consider shia as Muslims and reject their believes according to Islam, here where the clash starts between two rivals. 

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the shia-sunni conflict is not limited to this region, its even in pakistan, india, the usa, lebanon, syria, iraq, bahrain etc... whereever they are... the problem is not the religion, cuz Propeht (saws) didnt teach violence, its the traditions and the conservative thinking of the people. I am for the subject that you mention, cuz shia-sunni conflict is giving a bad image of islam.

Being a Shiite myself, I dont believe in violence, cuz that is not the islamic way of living, Islam doesnt teach conflicts. I am against all the shias that cause conflicts and even the sunnis or anyone else for that matter... I believe in peace and the islamic values, these people who fight among their own brothers and sisters are not muslims, infact they are not a part of any religion, cuz no religion teaches violence. Defending is one thing when attacked upon and creating chaos is another.

The real muslim would follow the teachings of Prophet (saws). He was the person upon whom people used to throw rocks and trash. Even so he responded in a respectful manner. The misconception that Islam was spread by a sword is full of crap, Islam was never spread by a sword, it was spread with peace and in an utter humble manner.

IF EVERYONE WAS TO TAKE AN EYE FOR AN EYE, THE WHOLE WORLD WOULD'VE BEEN BLIND TODAY - MAHATMA GHANDI

One way or another our lives were terrorized by our own patners in the past. 

I have every right in the world to comment about relgion etc... when it is the religion of others that effects my safety and security.....

And I am thinking about the time an IRA bomb went off less than 300 metres from me and two were killed....

Horrifying.

Or the IRA bomb that flattened Manchester city centre (shame they missed the Arndale centre)

I supposed to be there but have exam at the same time and I'm really interested in this topic.

to answer this question yes but this wont solve anything. Fighting between two groups belong to the same religion or idea absolutely damage the religion-idea- in the 1st place. The problem is not being sunni or shiite, the problem is not the source of the islam the problem is EXTREMISTS Shiekh in the tow group and instead of sitting together and discuss the problem that affecting on the islam they fight (there is no trust i'm sure about this) and non extremists just watching. I can't say it's sunni or shiite fault because they both are guilty.

Absolutely it's not Islam fault.

Absolutely..How can you promote a religion of peace if their are not only disagreements amongs muslims but theres also physical violence with shia killing muslims and vice versa. It truly is shameful. I dont really get into politics but if as muslims we cant unite, how in gods name are people going to believe this is a peaceful religion when the members arent practising it themselves...

 Contesting the motion will be Imam Sayid Hassan al Qazwini, who leads North America's largest mosque - Detroit's Islamic Centre of America.  It is the oldest Shia mosque in the U.S.    I don't know how to keep a civilized debate on Islamic topics when is Shia dominated.  I don't know, If it should be spiced up with rock salt, sea salt, or just simply table salt. I would like to add some Pepper to the salt mix, it makes the topic super interesting.  

 I think it's a good topic Speed, lets hope we get a nice civilized debate out of it.

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I thought of discussing the same topic in QL but later changed my mind : Click here

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 I agree Shuaib, I've never seen any religious or political doctrine that can be deemed peaceful either. 

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I have yet to see any doctrine being accepted as the most sound and peaceful

Religious or political

People have different views all the time - Its just that some people find it hard to understand that others have a right to a different opinion

someone do a masters in mathematics. he get a degree... and someone asks him how much is 2+2 ... somehow  he replies... 3.

does it mean that this is what mathematics is? or this is what mathematics tells him?

no... i would take it as... he got his degree somehow... but he dont know what mathematics tells about 2+2.

if one claims that mathematics cant add 2+2...is not right. is just about that guy who is making 2+2 as 3.

becoming a muslim is very easy (in a sense).... following islam or anyother religion seems very difficult to most... doesnt it?

so, biggest threat could be... people not 'willing' to know islam...and even they know it... they are not 'willing' to follow it...

and hence, it gives a picture to other religions... that this is the 'islam' that they are seeing on tv.

ignorance and being dis-honest with oneself is the reason.

When you're through changing, you're through.

I think you're right Gumby, so in certain cases the question is redundant because some people don't think it's a religion of peace anyway, regardless of what they think about the Sunni/Shiite issues (or even if they're aware of them)

 I was wondering when someone would point that out Gumby .  You're quite right, in the rest of the world (outside of the Islamic one) Islam is not known as a religion of peace, quite the opposite.  

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Yes, but the title says "...Islam's reputation as a religon of peace"  Think that the arguement is quite solid that in much of the non-Muslim world, that is, for better or worse, most defintely NOT Islam's reputation...

Oh, I thought it would make an interesting forum topic actually...although it would probably turn into a lot of West bashing, rather then an acutal meaningful discussion of the subject.  

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 Hmmm, so you think the biggest threat to Islam's reputation is people not following the religion properly? 

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if you note...i mentioned that it is not that sectarian differences that are effecting the islam...it is the ignorance of the followers and of those who are seeing it through someone else' eyes (media).

if we talk about islam, islam is what quran says and what hadith says... islam is not what we do in our daily life (though we can match those set patterns at times)...

When you're through changing, you're through.

 Why not?

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How atheism is changing the west - lOl!

Any comments ?

 You don't need to be a religious scholar to answer this question at all learn.n.earn, you just need to ask yourself how secretarian violence makes you feel.

Regardless of your education or knowledge there shouldn't be any questions you feel afraid to ask or answer.   

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this topic is too big for common people with very less knowledge about religion... islam, chritianity, hinduism etc.

most people are ignorant about their own religion and they never try to think once in their life that whether what they beleive in (regardless that they dont follow it), is actually a true concept or they are just following what they saw around.

i dont think in such case, one would have enough interest/knowledge to understand about some other religion (here islam), and hence will result in media effected perception of that religion.

to understand/evaluate one's own beleif one needs to be honest... and one needs to have not only the knowledge of what he/she is beleiving in but also of what other religions have it that differs from that particular religion.

most people, dont like exploring such things. is bit of waste of time for them (since they dont believe in heaven offered by anyother religion)... and they wouldn't live that long to witness which religion has true offerings.'why to take a chance' is the theme for not going deep in something other than what you  are told since your childhood... specially when you have food to eat, partner to have fun, and places to visit....as much as anyother religion-follower is doing???

one thing i know is... if you want to search for truth... you will always find it... only condition is...how much honest you are in your search?

wish myself and all of you a 'true religion' ... rather what society/media/family imposes...

best of luck

When you're through changing, you're through.

Muslim world - please i really dont see a muslim world!!

The only really muslim country which can put a face on the religion of Islam  is the Kingdom of Saudia Arabia. Other country might have a majority of muslims but none can be deemed even to be vaguely called a muslim country.

But KSA's got its hands so deep in the pockets of the western countrys, that no one will ever dare criticize it - Hypocracy is born in democracy -LOL!!!

Read ur history books people!

 LOL, i'm sure I'm going to get crucified for saying that, but I really can't think of a better phrase at the moment!

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Yeah, I see where you're coming from Gypsy. I'm trying to think of a better phrase than "more human", but I can't! I think you hit the nail on the head!

 Not sure if I'm going Tigi.  Will see Tuesday night. 

Tallg, actually I don't wonder that if the rest of the world were more aware of it, it would actually be somewhat...beneficial.  At least from the standpoint of someone who was raised in a Christian enviornment I have an understanding of differences of opinion amongst Christian sects, and have seen or grown up hearing about  (Ireland, France, etc) the results of inter-Christian conflict.  When I discovered that Muslims were also fragmented, it was almost a, source of comfort, to know that they have it no "righter" then the rest of us.  To me it seems to make Islam, more (you'll really have to excuse me, I'm grasping for words) human... or just better able to identify with it.

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Too true.... I went to Iran and I had a different perspective than other westerners as they had come from the Europe etc to iran whereas I had gone from Qatar.

There really is a big difference that many are ignorant of.

I'd agree with gypsy's last comment, because I imagine a large percentage of the World's non-muslim population don't know what Sunni and Shiite are.

But if they did, then the answer to the debate would probably be yes.

I am going to the debate on Tuesday night. Will I see you there? 

Just call me Tigasin. That's what I'm talking about

 Hmmm, well I can only speak from a Western standpoint, but I don't believe that the secretarian violence is really harming Islam's supposed reputation as a religion of peace, because the rest of the world simply isn't aware of it.   There are too many other things affecting the worlds view of Islam.

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Why should you make religion a taboo subject?

Why?

Sectarianism is a problem in many places.

And the answer to the topic is YES for any religion.

I read a really interesting article on the Dubai paper about Bahrain on Friday.  It certainly wasn't cheery... growing bitter divisions of sectarian nature...

They should get some folk from Belfast over to speak and encourage them to resolve their issues b4 it gets out of hand.

--

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 It's not about religion, it's about world preceptions of Islam, read the post. 

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 Hmm, well I could change the title, cause it's not actually about Sunni and Shiite, but rather, is the conflict damaging the world's view of Islam. 

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i wish there is only one islam

as i wish there is only one christian

this topic should be interesting. i will try to watch the programs on tv

Everybody is right Everybody is wrong, it depend where we stand.

      nice topic..

but some people afraid to talk on this topic...lolz

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   "Imagination is more important than knowledge"

 Why?  it's the next Doha Debate topic?

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