Who needs Religion nowadays?

Its compulsory for a better social life to follow. any religion of the world does nt allow for Sin and consider to do the Best. simple no way to -ve and all ways to be +ve.

Think abt it.

CC: how can you call him JUST? How can you call him Merciful?

VB: If Allah would try to be JUST to us, believe me NONE of us could gulp down a drop of water/food from our food pipes; He is the ONE who blessed us with enormous amount of blessings and what we are doing to THANK HIM!

Instead cursing and blaming HIM for all wrongs and inaccuracy!

Maazallah!

He is the MOST beneficent and MOST MERCIFUL; thats why we could do whatever at our Freewill and desire.

Allah knows the BEST!

Peace

You did not prove they had known those facts.. You were only "guessing" because they performed C-section (at the end of pregnancy) then they must have known that the bones are created first! That's not logic nor critical thinking of "thousands of years"..

Wow, 3000 BC eh? That would make me really old. Sadly though I was born in 1980 and use thousands of years of critical thinking, science and philosophy to explain the world around me, rather then a book written 1600 years ago.

Indeed QatariLady,

It is prudent, especially in the coming years that religions/people become more tolerant towards one and another.

Unfortunately, everybody claims to know the truth, hence this longing equals a fata morgana, utopia.

lol nice one

But I've proven that people DID know those "facts"

you are talking about over 1400 yeara ago, while She was born over 3000 years ago and believed that whatever Islam has preached (all topics covered) was already known to her at that TIME....:-)

Peace

[quote:] "So your saying the science in the Quran isn't real science."

The Quran doesn't TEACH science but it teaches religion. It only brings about scientific facts that ppl did not know at the time of the Prophet, so when later on those facts are proven by scientists using modern scientific tools and techniques ppl realise that who revealed those facts to illiterate ppl (Arabs) was the Creator Himself.

CC: you said that 120000+++ prophets were sent all over the world to spread Islam...is Buddha included as a prophet? He had lived prior to your prophet's time, but he didn't spread Islam?

VB: There were many prophets sent to this planet before Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), I don’t know exactly whether Gautam Buddha was one of them, check their messages if it is very close to Islamic teachings then yes.

Like Guru Nanak and Sai Baba’s message of ONE God, peace, love, brotherhood and many other instructions which are very much similar to Islam; then they could be Saints, due to passage of time and to avoid losing their messages, people made their portraits and idols, but later instead understanding the messages, they indulge into idol worship of saints and earlier prophets, which is NOT allowed in Islam.

CC: Also, Jesus, who is also a prophet, is following Judaism and not Islam. I'm confused. How can you tell that they were sent to spread Islam when the fact doesn't show it?

VB: Dear Coelcanth, don’t get confused with the name of the religion, I repeat that Quran clearly said David (Dawood), Moses (Moosa), Noah (Nuh), Jesus (Issa) and Abraham (Ibrahim) were well aware of the facts and informed their people during their times; but due to the passage of time and corruption in the earlier holy books, the message about the last prophet “Mohammed” was removed. Quran was clearly saying that all messengers of Allah brought the same religion called “THE RELIGION OF PEACE” or “ISLAM” with same messages and they were all Muslims. Check and verify yourself the facts by analysing the old testaments of Bible and find the similarities with Islam.

CC: Why would God needs to challenge our faith (Christianity), when he can create a perfect being out of us, who knows everything about him?

VB: Allah (SWT) way of teaching is through challenges, read Quran to understand the path of prophets and their way of teaching the religion of Islam.

CC: The reason is because God wants us to use our reasoning, the very gift that he gave us. That’s why he gave us freewill. He created us as a naive individual, and used our reasoning to learn our way. You don't need a book to learn what is right and wrong. You need to use your reasoning. I don't think God will judge us because of our Religion. God will judge us based on our actions. If he will only use the religion as a basis of salvation, how can you call him JUST? How can you call him Merciful? How can you call him Fair and doesn't give favours to few?

VB: I really appreciate your concerns, believe me, it is not necessary and easy for me that my sons will agree with my beliefs very comfortably. It is a huge series of education and fine tuning to make them understand that NOTHING in this world comes smoothly, one need to do hard work to gain something.

I repeat once again that to enjoy and get worldly benefits, we do study for over 15 years in schools and then colleges. Then why for eternal peace and life after death, the most important part of our Real LIFE, we don’t want to spare our time and energy to explore, educate and learn the very own religion to identify our LORD, the creator, the sustainer and the maintainer.

There will be different treatment among non believers and their Kids (who died before reaching the age of puberty); it is proved in hadiths (Sacred words of Prophet Mohammed, Peace Be Upon Him).

Who said we are Naïve, check Gypsy’s posts to prove that we all are smart enough to go for a foolish ride. So please don’t buy anything if it is available for free; check thoroughly!!! :-)

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RT: How can we be judged if god created you to be like that?

VB: My dear RT, God has blessed us with all the senses, given us a great brain to Explore and a Beautiful heart to feel what love and care, and innumerable blessings which we don't even realise.....HE didn't made you stubborn, which stops us to recognise HIM as 'Creator'.

We need to make our heart more soften to learn, seek more knowledge, analyse and identify our Lord.

As Master78 suggested check on Utube Ahmed Deedat's or Yusuf Estes's speeches, which could explain more on this topic.

Allah knows the BEST

Thanks and Peace!

[quote:] "Anybody that dares to extend his arm and point his index finger to judge others, should have his finger chopped off.

Very well said.. Intellectual discussion is the goal.. Listen to and understand each other..

Still don't get what you're trying to say. Where did I say anyone gets a free ride?

God created him as naive individual......?

Anybody that dares to extend his arm and point his index finger to judge others, should have his finger chopped off.

In this day and age, one particular religious group would dominate having 8 fingers only, as they would not give up after the first time.

You may freely choose which one you'd consider the most suitable candidate.

"Who said we are Naïve, check Gypsy’s posts to prove that we all are smart enough to go for a foolish ride. So please don’t buy anything if it is available for free; check thoroughly!!! :-)"

WTF are you talking about?

deleted

BTW, that's only one example of where the Quran is being misrepresented as scientific fact. I could provide many many more.

"About 3000 years ago, the Babylonians were the first human civilization to keep a consistent record of lunar observations. Clay tablets from that time period found over the territory of present-day Iraq are inscribed with cuneiform recording the times and dates of moonrises and moonsets, the stars that the Moon passed close by, and the time differences between rising and setting of both the Sun and the Moon around the time of the full moon. The Babylonians discovered the three main periods of the Moon's motion and used data analysis to build lunar calendars that extended well into the future.[2] This use of detailed, systematic observations to make predictions based on experimental data may be classified as the first scientific study in human history. However, Babylonians seem to have lacked any geometrical or physical interpretation of their data, and they could not predict future lunar eclipses (although "warnings" were issued before likely eclipse times).

Ancient Greek astronomers were the first to introduce and analyze mathematical models of the motion of objects in the sky. Ptolemy described lunar motion by using a well-defined geometric model of epicycles and evection."[2]

And the history of heliocentrism dating back to the Babylonians as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism

First off, read this as I don't feel like transcribing it all: http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Shabir-Ally/science11.htm

...

http://www.qatarlivi...

http://www.qatarlivi...

http://www.qatarlivi...

http://www.qatarlivi...

http://www.qatarlivi...

Tired of repeating the same tune again and again....

Summarised in the above posts...

If you don't agree then Let us live in our own world and let you live in your OWN Heavens....

Thank you and PEACE

But there are conflictions. Because religion is claming divine revelation for other peoples theories.

anything on tolerance, non violent/aggressive behavior?

So then why are you saying there's science and then there's religion if the Quran uses science.

But it didn't introduce facts that were against the above given theories. It introduced the same theories but claimed they were from God and not Plato, Socrates or Aristoltle or any of the other hundreds of sciencetists and philosophers.

So your saying the science in the Quran isn't real science.

When nothing can stop you from doing the bad things that you are committing in your life ...

When you fear nothing like laws, humans, regulations or anything ... The fear of God would do stop you, you would tell me that if someone would fear god would not do those ... Then I got no idea what that person is doing with his life, he fears nothing even god ...

God will always find a way to make him stop, it could be in a peaceful way ... Or something that might pain him for the rest of his life ... Or maybe he won't get the chance to do anything to change that, Death does not play around it just take your soul and leave your body to the sand from where it came originally ...

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment. (Gautama Buddha)

Religion is a way of life too but...i guess what counts more is SPIRITUALITY. Religion when goes overboard can creat fanaticism and ends up in chaos like what the world is experiencing right now.

Glitterfy.com - Glitter Graphics

I don't have Religion tatay and I don't need it.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

lol... god didn't make him stubborn, however he is even more powerful to choose to be what he wants, in this case stubborn...lol

simple minds are happier because they don't seek further than what they are told ;)

Who needs Religion nowadays?

Those people who do not have religion...

if you look at the debates of Ahmad Deedat

How can we be judged if god created you to be like that??

The Quran and Bible are contradictory on free will.

LOL.. OK

I'm not a biologist either but we both understand English and can think logically..

I enjoyed debating with you :)

(maybe coz you admitted I won lol)

Seriously it's not a matter of winning but you're too smart to deny God exists.

The End!

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

...like any other thing is open for discussion, in fact a very notable issue for discussion where one can not impose how this issue impacted on anyone and in its worst effect should not cause war, rebellion and their domino effects.

I do believe any religion started from one root. However, as time pass by, generations and generations led to various interpretations and impacts upon an invidual. This is where one should be left alone with how religion changed his beliefs... as long as his beliefs/new beliefs do not harm others, SHOULD NOT HARM OTHERS.

In the end, i do believe that WE WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO OUR FAITH when the day comes.

Glitterfy.com - Glitter Graphics

In response to VB, you said that 120000+++ prophets were sent all over the world to spread Islam...is Buddha included as a prophet? He had lived prior to your prophet's time, but he didn't spread Islam. Hinduism is the same. How can you say that? Also, Jesus, whom is also a prophet, is following Judaism and not Islam. I'm confused. How can you tell that they were sent to spread Islam when the fact doesn't show it?

And why would God needs to challenge our faith, when he can create a perfect being out of us, who knows everything about him?

The reason is because God wants us to use our reasoning...the very gift that he gave us. that's why he gave us freewill. He created us as a naive individual, and used our reasoning to learn our way. You don't need a book to learn what is right and wrong. You need to use your reasoning. In disciplining a child, do you read a verse out of the book and tell them they'll go to hell if they hurt their playmate? You can tell him directly what was wrong about what he did, and he'll learn from it. that's one step. I don't think God will judge us because of our Religion. God will judge us based on our actions. If he will only use the religion as a basis of salvation, how can you call him JUST? How can you call him Merciful? How can you call him Fair and doesn't give favors to few?

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

[quote:] "this world can be a better place tolive in WITH OR WITHOUT RELIGION."

To live this world yes what you said is true..

However, if there is an "assumption" that there's an ETERNAL life after death, wouldn't it be wise to know the truth about it?

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Gypsy,

I still think you're right!

;)

Being right is a matter of how you firmly believe and stand on your belief or faith. As some philosopher say.... "The value of everything depends upon yourself." You can be right and Qatarilady can be right AND SO IS EVERYONE.

i do believe that if only we earthlings can only tolerate this fact - let others be or live on their own sentiment/belief and we respect them... one another, this world can be a better place tolive in WITH OR WITHOUT RELIGION.

Glitterfy.com - Glitter Graphics

LOL. Well I'm not a doctor by any stretch and I've reached the end of my knowledge of human biology and end of what google can tell me! QatariLady won this round ;)

Gypsy,

LOL... I told you that it's impossible!

I still admire your perseverance.

;)

Ok QL, can we call a draw on this, because I have to admit that at this point I'm getting into biology waaaayyyy over my head, I'm reading this one way, you another and I don't think at any point were going to agree, and frankly I don't think either of us are right! :p

Reread what you've posted dearie..

When we say: "The glass may contain water" this means the glass does exist!

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

evaluationg, pondering, questioning. Reliogion makes war zones on the dessert, on the mountains and now on this site/group. PM vs. Qatarilady is almost on the enemy lines... tsk tsk tsk....

Religion is....

Glitterfy.com - Glitter Graphics

This is starting to get really confusing...:P

Ok "fetal liver, and fetal bone marrow circulate in first-trimester human blood and may provide novel targets for in utero cellular and gene therapy."

So what it's actually saying is the basis for liver and bone marrow is found in human blood during the first trimester. Again, we are talking about cells not bones...so again the statement in the Quran isn't accurate.

lol

The one I posted from bloodjournal

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Which scientific article are we referring to now? I'm getting confused. I'm referring to the one Master78 posted....

[quote:] "MSCs were isolated and characterized in first-trimester fetal blood, liver, and bone marrow"

In English this is not how an opinion is given..

An opinion will go: I beleive that MDCs were isolated from ..etc.

AND this scientific article doesn't deny the existence of bones either..

Right?

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Did you have a chance to watch the video?

Also, just in answer to this statement from the article:

"Dr. Moore points out that the study of how the human embryo develops in the mother's womb could not progress significantly without the use of microscopes. Microscopes were not invented until the 17th century A.D., and were not used in this field of study until the 18th century. Therefore when Dr. Moore studied certain statements in the Qur'an on this subject, he remarked, "I was amazed at the scientific accuracy of these statements which were made in the 7th century A.D."

ACTUALLY the first "microscopes" or "telescopes" (ie magnifying lenses) date back to Greece in 400BC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_telescope_technology

And the first recorded lenses actually date back to Ancient Egypt in 2000 BC.

Also embryos are visible at 9 weeks.

Don't forget as well that studies could be done on animal embryos, which would be larger, and humans and animals develop the same, so theories would have come from there.

That's not a scientific article, it's an opinion. And what facts? The problem here is the complete lack of facts. It's taking a rather vague description from a 1600 year old book and applying it to modern science. You'll read from it what you want to read to "prove" your point. Which can't be proven.

Victory when did I say I was having sleepless nights?

have strong faith and belief in ONE Lord and have agood sleep (just responding your comment and NOT a personal attack).

He is there to take care of each and every issues we see around; Obviously by using our hands, knowledge and wealth what He blessed upon us.

You're arguing about a fact.. What's wrong in a scientific article?

You're just settled in your comfort zone..

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Can you explain please?

also have a look at this 11 minutes short video

sure you will know more after this video, also please feel free to put any comments.

CC - If God wants his "institution" to be organized, why didn't he send the prophet earlier than Moses or Abraham so that both of them will know the book and both of them will be following the same path?

VB - First of all God knows better what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is bad (AL-HAKIM); he always have reasons for each and every activity or movement happened and going to happen. Regarding Prophets, there were over 124000 messengers were sent in different areas, zones and Time to spread the message of LORD. Moses and Abraham was well aware of this fact and informed their people; but due to the passage of time and corruption in the earlier holy books, the message about the last prophet was removed. Quran was clearly saying that all messenger of Allah brought the same religion called ISLAM and they were all muslims.

CC - Why did he gave us freewill? He could've created us to be like the angels who knew him from the start, and just do whatever he wills?

VB- Freewill is been given to humans and Jinns to Test Their Faith as A muslim and reward to the tolerance, chastity, piety and submission of their desires and will to ALLAH and his prophets commandments.

Why would he send a prophet in the past to decide the salvation of the future? What happens to those who had come before him who haven't read the book? What difference does it make, they also don't know the prophet then?

VB - As explained above, a long series of various messengers been sent to a particular zones, time and people/community (around 124000). While the 'Last Prophet' Muhammed (SAW) was sent for the whole humankind covering the period when he attained the prophethood till the day of judgment.

The responsibility to carry the message of Religion of Islam was given to the Saints and see around the globe how this religion getting spreaded and people are more interested and curious in knowing and understanding this religion. The people of past (before Prophet Muhammad (SAW)), had to follow whatever was commanded to practise by then Prophets and will not be questioned what is been instructed to us such as Alcohol is haram for us; while it was allowed to earlier Ummah hence they wouldn't be questioned but if today any christian or jew will convert to Islam then He should follow as per Quran and Sunnah's instructions. There is a tree of all major Prophets and messengers, will share if needed.

CC - Since the prophet only lived in the Middle East, what happens with those people who lived on the north, south, west and eastern part of the world during or prior to the prophets time?

VB - The commandments of Islam is Universal and spreaded all over the World by now. In Quran, He said each and every person in the universe will receive the message of Truth and Islam at certain point of Time in Life and that is His duty to send somebody carrying Allah message in someway........(What I am doing here is also a source of communication and message of True Religion getting across people called DAWAH) Google it Dawah and see how many websites to Spread Islam are available that shows Indeed Allah (SWT) said truth that nobody will be deprieved from HIS message and religion.

However Allah know the BEST!

Peace

Wow. A quote from one guy. Amazing. I do agree it's an interesting part of the Quran, but is it inspired by God. I doubt it.

Tried to answer all your query in below posts.

Scientific Accuracy of the Qur'an Amazes University of Toronto Professor

This message is based on an article entitled "Highlights of Human Embryology in the Koran and the Hadith" by Dr. Keith Moore, Professor of Anatomy and Chairman of the Department, Faculty of Medicine, at the University of Toronto, 1982.

Dr. Moore points out that the study of how the human embryo develops in the mother's womb could not progress significantly without the use of microscopes. Microscopes were not invented until the 17th century A.D., and were not used in this field of study until the 18th century. Therefore when Dr. Moore studied certain statements in the Qur'an on this subject, he remarked, "I was amazed at the scientific accuracy of these statements which were made in the 7th century A.D."

The Qur'an in 39:6 states that God made us in the wombs of our mothers in stages.

Dr. Moore comments: "The realization that the embryo develops in stages in the uterus was not discussed or illustrated until the 15th century A.D."

"The staging of human embryos was not proposed until the 1940's, and the stages used nowadays were not adopted worldwide until a few years ago."

Furthermore, he says: "The idea that development results from a genetic plan contained in the chromosomes of the zygote was not discovered until the end of the 19th century. The verse from the Koran [80:18] clearly implies that the nutfa (i.e. the initial drop of fluid) contains the plan or blueprint for the future characteristics and features of the developing human being."

The Qur'an 23:12-16 indicates that there is a lag or gap between two of the early stages of growth. How does that compare with modern scientific knowledge? Remarkably! Says Dr. Moore: "It is well established that there is a lag or delay in the development of the embryo during the implantation.. The agreement between the lag or gap in development mentioned in the Koran and the slow rate of change occurring during the second and third weeks is amazing. These details of human development were not described until about 40 years ago."

Finally, Dr. Moore concludes by saying that the agreement he has found in the Quranic statements "may help to close the gap between science and religion which has existed for so many years."

The above evidence shows that the Qur'an must be from God as it claims. The Qur'an says that you and every human being should consider this book with care. Had it been from anyone other than God, you would have found much discrepancy in it (4:82).

Whatever you tell yourself so you can sleep at night Victory.

have certain limitation to understand HIS level of accuracy and perfection! This is the part of our faith that HE is perfect and accurate in all sense.

Actually I would highlight that it is ancient scienctists as it's wrong. Frankly I would hope God would be a bit more accurate.

As generally well educated developed people we know the consequences of actions and which are bad for society or yourselves. I understand people have a spiritual void and are unable to comprehend the randomness of life and seek religion to fill this but what I dont like is the completly bogus criteria where: how much you pray to god > your actions.

[quote"] "Yes, the article is clear, but how is blood, liver & bone MARROW developing"

Thanks for highlighting the word "marrow" as this is not OBVIOUS bones which proves that it was Allah who told mohammed and not references of ancient scientists. Because had the ancient scientists conducted anatomy on an aborted fetus in the first trimester they wouldn't have known that that was part of bones being formed but they would've thought it was just flesh..But Allah knows what is exactly..

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

"Quran was clearly saying that all messenger of Allah brought the same religion called ISLAM and they were all muslims"

Ah yes, the old "Bible is corrupt and untrue" arguement again...

"but due to the passage of time and corruption in the earlier holy books, the message about the last prophet was removed."

Dont all you religous people get sick of arguing over whos right or wrong ?

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

We believe that humans can not live without freedome.

Freedome is the base for making human.

Freedome without limits will lead to chaos.

Chaos destroy communities.

Freedome limits is the others rights.

If God wants his "institution" to be organized, why didn't he send the prophet earlier than Moses or Abraham so that both of them will know the book and both of them will be following the same path. And why did he gave us freewill? He could've created us to be like the angels who knew him from the start, and just do whatever he wills. Why would he send a prophet in the past to decide the salvation of the future? What happens to those who had come before him who haven't read the book? What difference does it make, they also don't know the prophet then? Since the prophet only lived in the Middle East, what happens with those people who lived on the north, south, west and eastern part of the world during or prior to the prophets time?

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

Bhagwan Rajneesh, reincarnated in Qatar.......Creating a New Religion called Humanism (undercover Sex stories)

The chaos is not in the universe but in the WILL of the human beings that you're proud of and want to give it even more responsibilities to live by its own values as if you're living among perfect ppl..

Laterz

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

I'd let someone else take the credit if it would create this kind of chaos.

[quote:] "What if the Devil/Sheitan has created Holy books to throw the human population off and make us humans dependent "

Simply coz no one makes a masterpiece and gives the credit to someone else..

Allah says in the Quran about the universe what means: This is the creation of Allah , dare to show me what other so-called Gods have created..

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/252497?page=8

http://www.qatarliving.com/qatar-forum/forums/does-god-exist?page=1

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/409408?page=1

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/455385?page=2

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/595091

Tired of repeating the same tune again and again....

Summarised.....

If you don't agree then Let us live in our own world and let you live in your OWN Heavens....

Thank you and PEACE

We got three major religions and majority of the followers of all religions do not follow the rules prescribed in their books. We human have common sense. We do get angry if our children dont listen to us because we created them. We did not ask to be born, we came out of nowhere..this shows there is a master creator and its our duty to find which is the right religion

Back to business.. This is something we all understand..

Think of life as an institution that has a policy (religion) and a policy book (Holy Book) that the owner (God) worked out to ensure all employees (human beings) understand the goals and work both on short-term goals (material and moral) and long-term profit (Paradise). The emloyees are urged to be creative in what concerns the institution's technical side but it's up to the owner to make the policies..

You argue that there is likeness to God but you deny that God want his "institution" organized with clear goals but you develop techniques..

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

That was the first question I asked myself on my long road to atheism The Dude. How do we know that the Holy Books weren't sent by Satan?

This discussion is actually a very nice example of how things have ended up in the world.

These discussions, if you think a bit creatively and not all to literally, are a potential basis for separatism, intolerance and eventually war/death/destruction.. based on what? Written Words, based on interpretations, based on assumptions. While the matter is completely insignificant to our existence, as without the dispute over a book that has been declared holy we would have been able to set our own standards, our own morals, values and guidelines which would have been adopted by the majority as it would constitute peace and harmony among humans.

Of course there would be other problems, other issues... but to me religion is the largest issue that nobody has ever seem to be able to solve as everybody claims to know the thruth.

What if the Devil/Sheitan has created Holy books to throw the human population off and make us humans dependent and not capable of utilizing our own strengths, if so it has been very very effective?

Look for Dr. Zaghloul El Naggar, he is great

HASMUB,

I just think that a am less shameless in my expressions and do not really mind 'shocking' a bit every now an then.

However, I do keep it limited. And horny, yes I am - seems natural to me for a young lad.

Anyway,

---> back to topic....

Ok here: Then We made out of that lump bones, and clothed the bones with flesh

again, the flesh is coming after the bones, which isnt' the case. Flesh comes first.

"bones waiting to be covered by flesh."

This is my expression not the Quran's.

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Qatarilady...everyone here on earth is Guessing as to what will happen to them in the afterlife. no one can guarantee your so-called salvation by believing in the book...you must live it. We were created by God in his own image and likeness...and part of that is what God wants us to become...imagine from all walks of life, what is God's imprint in each and every one of us that stays the same, no matter what race, religion or nationality we came from? It's how we care for our children...and that is part of what God gave us that came from his likeness and image...and that differs us from other creatures who were created by God...that's how i guess my God is a Father to me, and not just a creator. He could've created us like the rest of the animals, but he chose to give us his wisdom and reasoning. Animals take care of their youngs and teach them only to survive. They don't reason...they think only on how to survive...we don't do that. We teach our children to be like us...much like as the creator wants us to be like him...caring, loving, merciful, just...a characteristic of a father/mother to their children.

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

Yes, the article is clear, but how is blood, liver & bone MARROW developing at the same time the same as "bones waiting to be covered by flesh." Sounds to me like the flesh is there and bones are waiting to be made.

i agree with britexpat..

Gypsy..The article is clear; blood, liver, bone marrow

Don't assume pls and don't add up things that don't exist.. That's called deliberate altering and forging..

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

hmmm Am I missing something? I was referring to the head of the male chicken!!! rooster, what?!!

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Should've known! that was embarrassing

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Qatarilady...The Dude is a Horny Qler, can't you notice that?

Thanx then I must edit

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Edit pls.

I'll open a thread titled "Heal the world, ban the Dude"!

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Well said and very insightful.. I'm from the confirmation bias ;)

[quote:] "The human brain has limits, for example we are unable to quantify large numbers. Try picturing 5 trillion in your head."

This reminds me of an imaginary example Muslim scholars made up to explain how our limited abilities cannot deal with metaphysics.. It goes:

Imagine someone blind all his life.. He was granted normal vision for a split second at one point and all he saw was a rooster's head . After having this very limited experience of seeing a roosters's head he went blind again. Whenever anyone tries to describe something to him he'd say: "How is it compared to a rooster's head?"

This life is the rooster's head that we saw and try to relate everything to it..

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

I agree with you on ponits 1 & 2 but:

3- God isn't your father so you really don't know what he'd do.. (you're guessing)

4- How do you know He ONLY wants you to LOVE? (guessing again)

Is this how you succeed in life? For some thousands a month one works like hell but for God and Paradise guessing is nough! Hmmm..One has to question the quality of the afterlife if we get it merely by guessing!

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Qatarilady...a cock is a slang term for the male's reproductive organ...

Just thought you should be aware of the terms...:-)

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

Yes but it starts off as tissue and THEN bones develop, not bones first then tissue as suggested in the Quran.

No need to be sorry it was meant to be funny.. Muslim scholars made it up to laugh at those who deny metaphysics :)

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

First trimester: blood, liver and bones marrow

http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/cgi/content/abstract/98/8/2396

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

"all he saw was a cock's head"

This made me me smile...

imagine, blind all your life... see for a split second, and all you see is some dudes 'helmet'.

lol

:-P

Sorry QL... I just had to, couldn't leave it... :-)

Illeteracy was common, in fact during that time only a few select people could read (usually only priests), HOWEVER education was still widespread, it was just done orally. He might not have been interested in science, but chances are he would have listened to some of the teachers as they spoke. In fact he probably would have been forced to by his uncle. Also we have no idea, really, what was common knowledge in Arabia. Mespotamia was locted in Iraq, as were many large cities, Carthage was located in Africa and Ethiopia, Yemen, Syria, Jordan, etc all had bustling civilizations. Not to forget the Romans had controlled the area for centuries. Roman soliders would have been a common sight, and with them would have come Roman knowledge.

And actually I just realized something: Bones are some of the later things to develop in the embryonic stage, tissue develops first, then bones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo

So actually: "bones waiting to be covered by flesh" is wrong.

I'm very impressed by your knowledge of the Quran and Islamic history which is obviously deep and not google-based..

Then I'm sure you know that the Prophet was illiterate even though he descended from the dominating tribe and his uncle WAS indeed wealthy and we can say he was a VIP. However, literacy wasn't popular and perhaps you know that the first words the Prophet heard from Gabriel was "Read" and his reply was "I can't read".. He was 40 at the time and never, according to the known references, had he shown any scientific interests.. Most of his time he was contemplating in a cave in Mecca.. in solitude..

After relevation he only lived 23 years dedicated to conveying the message of Islam and fighting those who were trying to undermine his mission stressing monotheism and ethics only.. He didn't introduce Islam in terms of scientific knowledge which means this wasn't his "mission statement"..

How literacy came in Arabia, that was during battles when captives were seized the Prophet would ask each of them to teach literacy to 10 Muslims in order to get freedom..

About Caesarian operation logically it was performed at the end of pregnancy. By that time they'll see a fully developped baby not bones waiting to be covered by flesh.

You might argue that perhaps some civilizations conducted anatomy on aborted fetus.. Possibly, but this kind of knowledge wasn't common in Arabia as you must have read.. And the Prophet died before Islam reached Egypt, Europe or Far East..

If you'll say that this verses have been added to the Quran that's a different story..

As about the Bible, I will not argue about that because it does come from a divine book..

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Also, Mecca was the wealthiest and most important city in the Arabian penisula at the time of Mohammeds birth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca and his Uncle (who raised him) was the head of a tribe, so he would have had access to education.

Gypsy,

Not to mention the Chinese civilization with 5000 years of documented History.

One may wonder why god never appeared in those regions with more progressive civilizations!

O_o

So you'll forgive me if I think this vague and mostly inaccurate statement:

"Man We did create from a quintessence of clay. Then we placed him as a drop of sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed. Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood. Then out of that clot We made a fetus lump. Then We made out of that lump bones, and clothed the bones with flesh. Then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the Best to create!" (Quran 23:12-14).

Is a laymans description of well known science rather then a "revelation" from the almighty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarean_section

As you can see from this the first recorded Caesarean sections were performed prior to the 1st Century AD. (Mohammad came around 600 years after that). In order to perform a Caesarean you would have to know the placement of the child in the womb.

Here's a history of medicine in Greece, it doesn't specfically mention the fetus, but since they had worked out the nerves and circulatory system, cutting open a womans womb was probably not a big deal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_in_ancient_Greece

The earliest known surgery was performed in Egypt in 2000 BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_medicine

And the Egyptians were known for their detailed knowledge of the human body.

And the first paper on Gynaecology describing diseases of the womb and problems with pregnancy was written in 1800 BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahun_Gynaecological_Papyrus

It's the oldest known medical text of any kind.

Here's some information on Mespotamia, which was located in present day Iraq http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia

As you can see their knowledge of water and water systems was quite advanced, to the point of dam building, aquaeducts and fountains. It's reasonable to assume they studied the difference between salt and fresh water, as would have the Egyptians, being based on the Nile.

Also " The Bible refers to fish ponds and sluices (Isaiah, Chapter 19, verse 10), and Hieroglyphics illustrate that the Egyptians of the Middle Kingdom (2052-1786 B.C.) developed ornamental fish ponds and attempted intensive fish culturing. Research indicates that the Roman's were quite adept in raising fish in ponds and also cultivated oysters. The Hawaiian people practiced aquaculture by constructing fish ponds, an example from ancient Hawaii is a pond at Alekoko dating back at least 1000 years."

In order to farm most fish you need to have a knowledge of water, especially brackish water for the cultivation of oysters and salt water fish.

all is man made, except nature!

Give me some examples pls and there references?

I'll see it when I come back..

Laterz

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

QL I've stated many times before that all of the "newly discoverd scientific knowledge" in the Quran is not new, not even in the Prophets time. It was all widely known science dating back to Mesopotamia, Egypt & Greece.

I applaud everyone on keeping this thread civilised and well written. And after reading it all, I will add my 10c worth (It has been upgraded from my previous 2c worth after someone pointed out that I tend to write far more than 2c calls for).

For the believers of the afterlife, there is no question about following the rules that promises entrance into this paradise. As there would be no question for anyone who truly believed their behaviour would pay off in a desired way. There is also no point in seeking inconsistencies within the rules, or even questioning the logic of it, as long as the people they love, and they themselves, are able to live happily and healthily. Living a life without truly questioning the path that makes them happy, is the path of least resistance, and is the path that almost all people attempt to get to.

The non-believers of the afterlife do not have the peace of mind that their death is merely a stepping stone to greater things. Therefore to live as happily and freely on this Earth is of the utmost importance. Knowledge is something that is revered, and gives people the perception of control of an otherwise unpredictable world. They question the logic and inconsistencies within the believers rule-set as part of their quest for knowledge and to appease their desire for truth. But no matter how much they question or point out plausible discrepencies, a real believer will never truly engage in the questioning of it. If life is good, and you truly believe there is a bonus at the end if you follow the rules, would you? It's a no-brainer. We don't question life when it works and we are happy, only when it doesn't.

So it appears to me, the major difference between believers and non-believers, is if you were born into circumstances that either convinced you or didn't convince you that the afterlife exists. But what the non-believers find hard to grasp, is why the believers continue to believe so strongly in the afterlife, when they feel so much evidence against it exists. And this is what I will attempt to explain.

The human brain has limits, for example we are unable to quantify large numbers. Try picturing 5 trillion in your head. It can't be done, we have to have faith that it exists beyond our reasoning ability. Humans can not also comprehend two contradicting and conflicting ideas. It causes what is known as cognitive dissonance. An uncomfortable feeling within us that we have a huge motivational drive to reduce. There are two ways to reduce this feeling, and both ways result in the dismissal of one of the conflicting ideas. One way, is to change what we believe to be the truth. We alter our beliefs, attitudes and behaviours and adopt the new information as fact. However, humans are inherently lazy, and like I mentioned before generally always seek the path of least resistance. To change your belief system of something so big as the whole concept of life, is incredibly hard to do. It's emotionally and intellectually draining and in all respects an undesirable activity. The second way, is to try and rationalise and justify the existing beliefs you have. Putting emphasis on those justifications, and reducing the importance of contradicting statements. This particular reaction is called confirmation bias, and is the most typical response when it comes to belief altering circumstances.

Now to bring my point home. I will give you an example of both cognitive dissonance, and confirmation bias. There will be two types of people that will read my post. One type will finish reading it feeling satisfied, somewhat enlightened and may even re-read points that seem particularly significant and interesting. These people have read something that not only agrees with their beliefs, but may even go one step further by confirming them. At this point in time, any questions that may disagree with what I wrote, are insignificant. This is an example of confirmation bias.

The other type of people reading this post, will temporarily agree with the validity of certain points I make, but it will leave them feeling a little bit wrong. They will internally seek out ways to discredit the points they feel are debatable, and will, in effect conveniently forget the rest. This is an example of cognitive dissonance, and the attempt to reduce it.

[quote:] "It is my opinion that the Quran faces more and more difficulties fitting into this century."

Here comes the importance of the newly discovered scientific facts that appeared in the Quran 1400 years back.. The Prophet didn't have tools to know that the bones of a fetus are formed before the flesh and skin yet this fact appears in the Quran nevertheless.. He didn't discover either that between each sea and another there's a third kind of water that works as a barrier yet this also appears in the Quran..

http://www.55a.net/firas/en1/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=253:the-description-of-the-barrier-between-two-seas&catid=35:universe&Itemid=91

Someone asked me in another thread why there are so many interpretations to the Quran?

My answer was that the Quran hasn't been revealed to the ppl of that time only but to all ppls in all places and in all times.. Hence the different interpretations that reflect different experiences and analysis..

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You need Religion so when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Shitan is not an angel.. He's a Jinn.. Jinn have free will.. There are believers and non-believers among them..

Euhm, QatariLady..

I thought Angels and Humans alike were having Free Will.

Sheitan/Lucifer/Devil is a fallen angels that refused to bow before God.

Wasn't it?

As goes for

"If Arabs did any good at all it was in the way they had preserving the Quran and Hadith down to a science"

It is my opinion that the Quran faces more and more difficulties fitting into this century. And that it is NOT good to not change attitudes according to time. Surely, you HAVE TO keep the essence the same but some passages in the Quran are just to aggressive and might be a negative influence, depending on the interpreter.

Shah...i'm not young in Religion. What i am speaking is the result of my "freelance" days. there is only TWO RULES in the UNIVERSE. Love God with all your heart and Do not do unto others what you do not want others do unto you. If you follow this 2 rules, how hard is it for you to know what is good and bad? Every country has their own law...was it created based on religion for them to know what is right and wrong? Was it really essential to salvation? What is salvation? For all we know, our soul is trapped in this body of ours. God sends the souls to gain experience and wisdom in order for it to move up the hierarchy. There is no DEVIL. Being evil is all in our mind. We choose what we do. We are not forced nor coerced by the unseen EVIL. Best analogy is a knife. A knife can become evil if it is used to harm another human being. If you use it for it's purpose, that is to cut foods, will you call it evil?

God give us freewill and reasoning. We need to reason out and not just say Amen to what we read or hear. Adam and Eve is not real. There never was. If you are going to refer to the bible, they mentioned that she gave birth to Cain and Abel, and Cain later on killed his brother, and God found out and he cursed Cain, and what did God tell Cain? You will be marked and you will become a wanderer, and whosoever kills you will perish. If they were the first and only family created by God then, who will kill cain for God to tell that?

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

The Dude...we share the same view...glad to know i'm not alone :-) BTW, you might want to look into Deism...it's a philosophy, not Religion.

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

Thanks for your sweet words..

I agree with your argument regarding the free will.. Angels were not given a free will as human beings that's why all they do is obey God and worship.. This is of course according to Islamic references.. But human beings have been given this will to willingly choose.. We disagree about Paradise and Hellfire..

I believe in them because I trust our references in the same way you trust your technician when he tells you if you start your car it will explode.. You trust him because you know that his references are authentic.. Islamic references are just as authentic.. If Arabs did any good at all it was in the way they had preserving the Quran and Hadith down to a science.. That's why I believe in Hellfire and Paradise.. Why did Allah chose this two-sided end? I don't know and I cannot guess..

In response to Khalid's question about my contradiction to my belief in God:

1. I believe in God because i am alive and kicking! What benefits me from believeing in God is the same benefit that i get in believing in my Father...Loved.

2. I know there is God because there is no EFFECT WITHOUT A CAUSE. All that surrounds us are effect, and the world is being run by CAUSE and EFFECT. If you can prove to me and show me an effect without a cause, then you can convince me that there is no God.

3, God will do to me the same thing my Father will do to me by believing in him...watch over me and continue to love me despite all my wrongdoings.

4. The ONLY thing that God wants us to do is to LOVE one another the way we love ourselves. In layman's term...Do unto others what you want others do unto you.

God's love is UNCONDITIONAL. No matter how bad we are, if we ask for forgiveness, GOD will forgive you, if it comes from the heart...much like us as Parents. Will you deny your son the forgiveness he is asking?

I hope i was able to answer your questions.

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

Humanism is the belief that we can live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs. www.humanism.org.uk

***********

"There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out". - Richard Dawkins

Shah Taurian, nice first post. I also am convinced that the human capacity for self-justification and self-delusion is infinite.

Mandi

You say that I avoid logic but I don't see any logic in you argument regarding Paradise, maybe due to the different backgrounds. Religion is instilled in my mentality and secularism is instilled in yours. In your argument I only see "vivid imagination". Allow me to quote you:

"my own version of paradise - not dictated by any religion" (you imagine what Paradise is).

"If todays major religions had not been so aggresive as they were, and the religions of the past HAD been aggressive, wouldn't it be a plausible scenario that Islam and Christianity wouldn't exist today."

You assume here that religions made their way to ppls through aggressiveness. Has there ever been an aggression more severe and overwhelming than the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagazaki? Yet the Japanese ppl is still mostly Budhist!

On the other hand, there are millions of Muslims in USA who embraced Islam without war.

Since you want an in-dpth discussion, let's go to the basics to see where we agree and where we diagree. Let me begin with this question. Do you believe that there is "a" God? If you do, then how did you know it? Logically please avoid "gut" feelings.

Shah,

you say that because you do not trust or believe in yourself.

well all i can say is that MR. Coelacanth's mind is too young to understand Religion..without a religion you are a freelancer...being a good human is fine without a religion but what abt rules and guidelines..without religion you will be making and breaking your own rules.

Ah no, QatarLady... never I would insult your God. Maybe I'd make fun of his crooked followers, just like I would make fun of crooked followers of Jesus.

But, yes... that remark was not nice, I am man enough to admit that and apologize if I have offended you as, like I said, you seem sincere and are in my eyes a respectable partner in the discussion.

Whether there is love in religion... yes, so much that people KILL in HIS name.....(and no main stream religion is exempt from responsibilities of killing)

Which lead me to your previous question, Humanism.

Well, the easiest way to explain is to quote a wiki and a source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

To me Humanism, even though I remain slightly Agnostic, request HUMANS to utilize the 'god-given' ability to distinct between RIGHT OR WRONG. Morals, Ethics and such we all carry with us by having a conscience and free will. In case there is a will 'god' (or nature) must have designed us to use our OWN abilities, not to wait for God to tell us what is right or wrong. Not for God or his evil disciples to tell us what is right or wrong, we know damn well.... but just do not want to know and allow our governments to kill and destroy, also in the name of God, time after time. God, in this, is a failed concept because humans rely on him and not on their own abilities.

Humanism teaches us that it is immoral to wait for God to act for us. We must act to stop the wars and the crimes and the brutality of this and future ages. We have powers of a remarkable kind. We have a high degree of freedom in choosing what we will do. Humanism tells us that whatever our philosophy of the universe may be, ultimately the responsibility for the kind of world in which we live rests with us.

Whether Humanism is a religion, is disputed. I think it is an understanding.

I believe in the Divine Creator

......

Religion divides....

Love unites.........

Let Love be our Religion....

......

Peace out

Thank you.. Pls no insults to the Prophet(if you meant him in particular).. I know to you ppl he's just a man and, at the very best, a philosopher but to us he's more than that.. I burst into tears as I typed this post.. This is how much LOVE there is in religion.. not fear, not blind followership but real love.

Ok Lady, as the comment comes from a respectable individual.

Edited,

Maz1 -

Since you feel the need to display this 3 times it is literally THE ONLY thing you can say, sadly it is not what you say but what you have been told to say, Surrah Al Kafiroon.

Shame that people just refuse to think for themselves and act like "a flock of sheep".

Maz1ah

You hypocrite diot, you throw around Surah's in combination with taking 'Gods' name in vein?

Where do they teach you that?

Ur just a waste of space, infact i did not write it 3 times, and i wont justify to you why its on there 3 times as clearly it none of your god damn business. And yes i used a verse from the quran, i am glad u know that its surah al kafirun, congratulations.

Would you pls elaborate on the HUMANISM thing and why you think God or riligion is against it?

Laterz

on this post its amazing.

There seems to be general consensus that we should live and let live, with reference to religious (or lack of) belief.

but the very existence of this posts proves otherwise to me...i mean simply asking the question:

'whats the point of religion',or,

'is it needed', etc etc

in my mind has implications and insinuations (??check spelling)

ok - moving on then...healthy debate etc etc etc....frankly..this issue has been discussed and debated since adam was a lad with no final conclusion being reached.

my conclusion be confident enough to back your beliefs and the bottom line is , if you lived your life like there's no judgement ( i.e there's no God /whilst remaining moral and upright), and you turn out to be right, then there'll be nobody there to congratulate you or you will not there yourself to feel proud of your self.

If you lived as if there is a God and he ask you to behave in a certain way, and when you die you discover you turn out to be wrong , you will not be around any more to feel regret for not having 'lived life to the full' anyway!!!!

but if you were right......

First of all I forgot to tell you how to get a Land Cruiser. Be Qatari!! (I don't know why they're obsessed with it! what's wrong with BMWs? very comfy!)

Ok.. About your logic, I'll get back to it later tonight inshallah.. I need to re-energize!

Laterz..

(and thanx for the compliment)

If we were created to God's image

and God gave us FREE WILL

Consequently I can only assume that God demands us to believe in ourselves.

Hence,

God's preference for any form of religion would be

HUMANISM

It affirms the dignity of humankind, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appealing to rationality, while tending to reject the supernatural or the divine authority of religious texts as these poison our minds.

humanism encompasses intellectual currents running through a wide variety of philosophical thought, some proponents say it is able to fulfill or supplant the role of religions, and in particular, to be embraced as a complete life stance.

Cargodog,

That was an excellent post indeed.

*common sense*

QatariLady:

I'm a bit disappointed over your, rather short, response to my answer. I'd expected more from you, as I respect you as a good debater. Unfortunately, it seems that, while you're more than happy to ask us to play along with your "paradise" theory, you're not willing to play along with theory of logic. Did it hit a nerve??

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough...

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

Qatari Lady,

With that I mean to say that in case God created Adam & Eve, he created human life......not specifically Adam and Eve. (as this would have led to inbreed and the whole human race should be retarded), by the Instruction Manual I mean that God did not give an instruction manual in writing, yet he supplied us with Free Will and a conscience, in his eyes enough to differ between Good and Bad. Hence, no need for a HUMAN_INSPIRED book to tell us what to do.

Humanism is a great thing.

Sure master, I know the story...

Especially in the sentence "told them to kneel, as sign of worship" is where a big problem lies. Worship me or Fear Me.

For the rest...

A fairy tale is a fictional story that may feature folkloric characters such as fairies, goblins, elves, trolls, giants, and talking animals, and usually enchantments, often involving a far-fetched sequence of events. In modern-day parlance, the term is also used to describe something blessed with princesses, as in "fairy tale ending" (a happy ending)[1] or "fairy tale romance", though not all fairy tales end happily. Colloquially, a "fairy tale" or "fairy story" can also mean any far-fetched story. Fairy tales commonly attract young children since they easily understand the archetypal characters in the story.

In cultures where demons and witches are perceived as real, fairy tales may merge into legendary narratives, where the context is perceived by teller and hearers as having historical actuality. However, unlike legends and epics they usually do not contain more than superficial references to religion and actual places, people, and events; they take place once upon a time rather than in actual times

O ye that reject Faith!

I worship not that which ye worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Thats all i have to say to those who reject faith

ma3salama

O ye that reject Faith!

I worship not that which ye worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Thats all i have to say to those who reject faith

ma3salama

O ye that reject Faith!

I worship not that which ye worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Thats all i have to say to those who reject faith

ma3salama

[quote;] "God did not create Adam, Eve and an Instruction Manual."

Then who createc Adam and Eve? (btw, Muslims call the Quran an Instruction Manual) :)

Nice talking to you..Laterz

In the beginning God created Adam and then created Eve from Adam and when God told the Angels and the evil to Kneel (as a worship sign) to Adam, here the evil refused and said to God I am better than him I was made from fire and he is made (Adam)from clay.

God ordered to exit the evil (Sheetan)from heaven, here the evil asked God to have a chance to live till some time, and God let gave him the authority to live.

You see the God is so generous even with the evil and automatically God will be more generous with people and other living species.

When the evil knew that God will let him (the evil) live to a certain time, the evil made a challange and said to God that he will destroy or let all the people deviate and go to the bad side.

Then God said ok those who will follow you (the evil) will go to hell.

What about those who will not follow?

They should be awarded and the award is the heaven (paradis).

QatariLady,

God gave us free will and a conscience...

Hence, god has equipped us with the knowledge you seek, it IS in our nature to distinct between GOOD and BAD.

God did not create Adam, Eve and an Instruction Manual.

A successful organization thrives on people pointing out the flaws. A successful organization encourages change and nurtures an environment were people are creative.

If an organization didn't encourage these things, it would be completely crippled and fail.

Religion doesn't encourage questions. Therefore it will fail eventually as many people will start to find it stifling.

Religion is like an organization's policy book.. You HAVE to abide by it for the well-being of the organization.. The policy includes acts of punishment but it's not crippling.. Can an organization function without rules and means of implementing those rules?

Aren't the employees afraid to break the rules? I don't mean "freaked-out" but "prudent" (is prudent in English the same as in French? like careful?)

Nice talking to you..laterz

Master,

I do not believe God/Allah/Jaweh, or whomever, will be able to blame or punish somebody that has not been living up to his standard as we are products of Him regardless of our sins. No merciful father will send his own creation to hell.

So in case of a God

Earth = hell

Death = heaven (if deemed worthy by the almighty)

Reincarnation = Re-do life

Fear is incited by HUMANS that felt the need to control the masses. though-out history RELIGION has proven to be one nasty evil in this world and has been DIRECTLY responsible for war, death and destruction.

Holy books, all of the main ones, carry the same message which one can find back in a couple of the 10 commandments (those that do not involve God, the rest is all 'tales; that are suited for their respective environments. Some stories hold great moral values, but are no more than human fabrications that have the purpose of controlling.

Therefore religion = fear

Fear of the unknown.

If God is loving, no human should fear Him.

Because it promotes the idea that the only way to peace is everyone believing in the same thing, and that your belief is the one and only true belief. Considering that there's some 1000 different religions out there, you can see why some people get angry when someone tells them their belief is wrong and they're going to hell.

All religion seeks and ask for peace, so how can be the source of problem?

Correct, who needs it. Sometime it dosen't leads you to live a peaceful society. It only promotes flag burning and sucide bombing.

From what I've seen from many religious people the fear is in fact VERY crippling, especially in an intellectual capacity. You're so scared of "sinning" you refuse to question your religion or even experience certain things.

Fear should be as follow

We must have a fear from God because we will enter heaven only by Gods Mercy.

Always be good and doing good things will let us away from hell.

Fear helps you calculate your riks without crippling you

I would like to rephrase Gypsy, apologies Gypsy.

Fear of Hellfire + Hope for Paradise = Complete control by those whom imposed religion upon you. Sheep No. 93434342.

Qatari Lady.

1) When you hoping for better while you are living in fear, fear still remains the primary emotion.

2) Fear is real, hope is a desire, an instrument to downplay fear.

Balance there will never be.

Or: Fear of Hellfire + Hope for Paradise = Complete control of the people who believe you.

Fear of Hellfire + Hope for Paradise = Balance

Whatever works Qatarilady. Really the psychology of it is all the same.

Religion = fear

No human should have to lead a life in fear.

Wow.. what an example.. It would've been better if you'd said like an employee who knows if he excells will be promoted but if he screws up will be fired..

By your reasoning Qatarilady the only thing keeping you being moral and good is your belief that you'll be judged after you die. IF you didn't believe in an afterlife you wouldn't be a good person. This fear, or belief in judgement is what makes you act the way you do and behave the way you do.

What I'm saying is that, without that, you would be lost, as would many. This is where the psychological need for religion comes in. It tells you what you need to do, and the reason to do it.

Just like a dog knows if it sits it will get a bone.

[quote:] "But don't you see Qatarilady, you need to have this belief in Paradise TO function in this life."

hmm not really because if you could figure out, either by education or experience, the skills and knowledge this life requires you'll succede that's why many atheists are successful and happy because they used the natural laws..Their destiny after death that's another story..

But beleiving in Paradise urges you to work for it by knowing what leads to it..

To expand on what Gypsy just said, one needs religion when he is incapable of accepting the fact that there are thousands of things that he cant comprehend as of now, or will be able to thousands of years from now, and hence proceeds to attribute it all to the power of one single entity he calls God/Divine/Allah/Whatever.

Whoever is comfortable adjusting to the fact that there are things beyond the human mind and you dont need a single master key to be employed to answer them all will be comfortable with being a non-believer.

Take your pick.

That said, I find it incredibly funny when people take it upon themselves to 'educate' other people what their God (supposedly) tells them, completely based on their beliefs and nothing else and then proceeds to 'pooh pooh' the other guys beliefs comparing to their own.

But don't you see Qatarilady, you need to have this belief in Paradise TO function in this life. If not you would live in constant fear of death. Religion fills this void for you.

As no single person is complete, the for sure he needs to complete this empty part, the spiritual part.

I, as a believer in religion, don't see that ppl need religion to be able to live this life.. To live this life they need proper education and basic material needs..

Religion is about after death more that it's about this life.. Belivers take this life as laying foundations for the eternal one..

Ppl need religion like I said above so when eventually ppl go to Paradise they're not left behind..

Cargodog.. If you believe in God and in Paradise then you have to know from the "Owner" of Paradise how to get to it.. If you try to "guess" then you might take a detour to Hell :)

alain.. Thanx I'll try to find the info on BBC website.

Religion is a psychological need, plain and simple. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_religion

It's a stress reliever (fear of death & the unknown), it creates a purpose for people and it acts as a social unifier.

The question of whether or not we still need it is dependent on whether we feel we have enough answers from science to relieve stress, do we have other things to give people purpose and do we have other effective social unifiers?

Qatarilady: To know the God of Moses, please watch BBC's Walking the Bible- 2 part series. The researcher studied Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Historians confirmed Moses' history and the plagues that Egypt suffered.

... and also the 1998 MOSES, PRINCE OF EGYPT animated film

To connect to Moses in this age is to connect to the new covenant with the Jew: Jesus, who the Jews disowned until this day. Rageh Omaar, an admirable Muslim who created a documentary on TV presented Jesus on a fair, brave and factual manner.

We do not need religion to connect to Jesus. (John 1:12-13)

Dude, I am not a jew. I am a Christian not attending any church for the last 10 years. I exercise my faith with family at home. How fortunate Jews were have they not been stubborn to the one God.

Btw, how many points do I need on this forum to win a Landcruiser? ;-)

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough...

QatariLady: "What's the best way to deal with the death? Suppose there was a Paradise after death, how can we get there?"

Suppose I believe in paradise - my own version of paradise - not dictated by any religion, I could get there by behaving the way I do now. By treating people with respect and basically following the common sense of the 10 commandments. See, I strongly believe in following the 10 commandments. Not because they were given to us on some mountain, not because I've been told to. In fact, it doesn't take a braniac to come up with them. If we would refer to the 10 commandments as "common sense", it wouldn't have that religious and spiritual ring to it and religious leaders couldn't claim ownership of them. That's why they dubbed them just that; the 10 commandments.

Furthermore, you later on give the answer that "God exists because God says so". Wrong. God exists because MAN says so. I played along with your theory on paradise. Now, if you will, play along with the following theory. If todays major religions had not been so aggresive as they were, and the religions of the past HAD been aggressive, wouldn't it be a plausible scenario that Islam and Christianity wouldn't exist today. If so, wouldn't that mean the religions of the new "today" would have been completely different? Example: If, say the American Indians had invaded Europe, and colonized it, wouldn't all Euorpeans being doing the rain dance today and laugh at that "ridiculous" idea of Jesus. Just as "we" now laugh at the rain dance? If the Vikings had continued their plunder and raping, wouldn't it be possible that the entire middle east would have believed in Odin and Thor?

See, dear QatariLady. The history books are written by the winners - not the losers. But that doesn't prove they're right - just proves that they, well, WON. Nothing more, nothing less.

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough...

i see too much confusion in many answers

when you want to succeed in something you study it

read about it in all religions in Google

is there a god?

what is the goals of each religion

what is the miracles

that is believable in each of them

there must be one that has it all

remember we have brains and god gave us the gift of thinking for a purpose

You must have me confused with someone else.

Salaam Alaikum :-)

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

and add "there is no one to protest"

Verse 110

You [true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad and his Sunnah (legal ways, etc.)] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allah. And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fasiqun (disobedient to Allah - and rebellious against Allah's Command).

??????

Sorry dear, I can't understand what you are raving about.

Salaam Alaikum!

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

that we are the best of nation. Oh I forgot you are crusader of agnostics/jews/gays/hindus and you beloved American soldiers

Oops I missed swines, PM you should seriously protest for the innocent PIG which was tied and thrown in Mysore Masjid

I feel so sorry for that innocent pig, how cruel and no is there to protest

What about me Maz.. I believe in God but dont follow any religion. Will I have bad habits??

You said Only God will judge but seems to me u have judged every1 already.

" Your Faith is what you believe, Not what you know"

understanding each other. I know you said "may" but I am saying that even with religion they "MAY" still have all these bad habits and those who are atheist MAY not. It's really something we cannot quantify and say that you have to have religion because without you will not have decency and good values and habits.

And I am not saying that I will judge in Allah's place. I am simply stating that we cannot say that those with religion will have good habits and those without it will have bad habits.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

.

.

Darwin!

.

.

together the true story, and will do so long into the future when me and you are long dead and buried.

Thats the point, none of us really knows for sure.

You can cut n paste verses from the quran to say hes real, I could post lots of atheist sites with statements to say its all crap.

You were born and brought up to believe, I wasnt.

Each to their own.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

I said may, so get ur facts correct. if people follow the religion then yes they will have guidance, some people are especially athiest think that they came on this planet without gods wish, i dont want to judge what athiest have on their mind, like i said above a person has a choice of what to believe, and my response was to the writer who raised the question as he thinks religion only consists of 2 things. And who r u to judge by saying that athiest are better than muslims, jews etc. Only god can judge. Please note that if one says that they are muslim or jew, it doesnt mean that they are believers or strong believers. Every religion has hypocrites, and some may just say what religion they are as they were brought up that way.

[quote:] "and god didnt say cos he dont exist "

Says who? Then who created the universe?

I'll answer it and tell me where I'm making a mistake..

You'll say "nature" created the universe..

Q: What is this "nature"?

A: Uh..Um..dunno.. but it's nature..

Q: Is it one nature or multiple natures?

A: One nature, otherwise the universe will go nuts!

Q: Is this "nature" wise or not wise?

A: Wise.. Because the universe was well-designed.

Q: Does this 'nature" have the capability to create according to the worked out design?'

A: Yes that's why a fetus' lungs function well in the womb but immediately before birth the functionality changes so the baby can live in air.

Ask any believer who is the One, Wise and Capable and they'll say God.. You call him "Nature" we call Him God (Allah)

There are many concepts about the relegion in reality cannot answered by the scientist or science, and within the amount of big intelligence also., except accepting a person sent by God as prophet like, jesus and moses, and mohammed peace be upon him. Therefore to understand the whole purpose of relegion can be explicitely described in the book of Quran and a translation is widely available to clear your doubt about the need of relegion etc. because subject required elaborate explaination and this QL chaptor, and space available is not convenient way of study of the topic in discussion.

Relegion is for love and forgiveness, is one of your definition and that is true, but you have only stated one atomic part of purpose in human life and his behaiviour towards to other people is just indicated. there are several area of study about relegion that makes a perfect faith and related deeds to make the life both successfull in this world and the world you are going to face after death which is exclusively explained in Quran as it was explained in previous vedic books etc. coz all of them are one God who created you and universe and everything in it with a purpose. Good luck.

they do not have "bad habits" and have good values without religion. I'm not sure how we can really argue against that/ Are we going to say that because someone doesn't believe in God, they automatically lead immoral lives full of bad habits?

I can't really pass judgment in that manner, having know many atheists who were a lot better people than some Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus or what have you.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

God has not put us on earth just to love and forgive, i dont know what religion u come from to be quoting this. In fact if we go back to judism, cristianity and islam, there is alot more to it. Baring in mind these are religion of the books, if you unsure what i am talking about then just google it. Everyone has their own level of faith, some like to believe and some dont like to believe, hence your own choice.

Religion is like a guidance for the believers, if you actually follow it. Like helping the poor, respecting people, remembering god, lives of the prophets (Moses, Jesus, etc), importance of obedience to parents, purpose of fasting and praying, not cheating, gambling and alot more.

Without faith you may lead astray and have bad habits hence thats why we need religion.

who take it as a personal vendetta that some dont believe.

Oh, and god didnt say cos he dont exist :)

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

OK dearie..

Says God :)

[quote:] "Shouldnt we all just let those who wanna believe believe, and those that dont, dont."

Sure.. But what's wrong with talking about it if both parties don't mind?..

Whoever is sensitive to the subject can ignore it it's not obligatory..as simple as that..

Why do you take that personally? Everything isn't about YOU, dear :-)

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

"hmmm.. Ok let's go to the beginning:

There was God.. He created the universe with opposites among which are good (the way of Allah that leads to Paradise) and evil (the way of Satan that leads to Hellfire)"

Says who ??

Thats the thing about religion.Some say a god exists, some believe theres no higher power.

Shouldnt we all just let those who wanna believe believe, and those that dont, dont.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

I'll tell you what it means..

You posted the first line of the previous post then in a split second you edited it and added the second line to hit me hard!

Unfortunately for you I saw that split second.. Busted!!

That would imply I was taking a swing at you (which I am not). After all, you don't put down other people's beliefs to my knowledge. Or do you and I missed it?

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

hahaha Nice addition.. How do they say it? Below the belt?

Glad to hear that :)

I am very comfortable in my beliefs. So comfortable I don't feel the need to put down others' beliefs :-)

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

No nerves at all.. I was sincere in what I said..

I always think that those people running around trying to convince everybody of their religion's superiority are suffering from an inferiority complex, insecurity about their faith, and social retardation.

If you are secure in your faith you will live it to the best of your ability. My faith doesn't require a "pr campaign" to promote it.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

would understand that I am secure in my faith -- as I stated it doesn't need a "pr campaign" by denigrating other people's religions.

I suspect I struck a nerve with you, though it wasn't my intention.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Wow .. So upset with religions .. Maybe you should check the level of insecurity you in particular suffer from.. Honestly, I feel sorry for you not able to decide what to believe in.. Is it newly found Islam, is it old good Christianity or is it none of the above?

Absolutely agree Cargodog.

***********

"There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out". - Richard Dawkins

Its the same circle.. u feel the need to prove superiority of your religion coz u say others undervalue it... others in turn are undervaluing ur religion to prove the superiority of their religion which they feel is undervalued by sum1 else and so on.. i have no problem in discussing religion, but i think it shud be done by bringing forward the wisdom in each religion, not by berating sum1 else's religion.. I have seen too many religious debates go ugly thats why i say so..

" Your Faith is what you believe, Not what you know"

The Dude..

I get it you believe that we, as secured and well-off, don't need religion because it's man-made to help the miserable or insecure feel good, but I didn't get your stance towards "higher power".. Do you believe it's imaginary too?

[quote Sandeep:] "Why do they feel the need to prove their religion is superior to others"

Simply because when you value something very highly you hate to see it undervalued.. The question is: Why do some hate to discuss religion?.. Maybe we should open a thread on those sensitive to this topic!

[quote MR Paul:] "If He's neither willing nor able to prevent evil why call Him God?"

hmmm.. Ok let's go to the beginning:

There was God.. He created the universe with opposites among which are good (the way of Allah that leads to Paradise) and evil (the way of Satan that leads to Hellfire).. He created us and equipped us with the capacity to respond to evil and to good.. And He gave us willpower to choose how to respond.. Based on our choice we then go to Hellfire or Paradise.. It's not that he's not willing nor not able but we use what we have..

[quote Alpha:] "A person does not need organized religion"

Why not? The whole world is perfectly organized, physically that is.. We seek organization at home and at work and everywhere.. Why should the religion or any belief system should be chaotic?

[quote Hasmub:] " From time to time religious leaders have provided moral and ethical instruction."

How do you see the relation between all religions ever since Adam till now?

[quote Alpha:] "What about Greek and Roman religions that numerous Gods?? They were just as much an organized religion as any others.

How can it be organized with so many God.. It got so complicated and chaotic it didn't last.

[quote alain:] "If we worship this God, we'll be fine. Shun religions!

I'd love to follow Moses.. Do you have access to his religion?.. I mean authentic references?

[quote Cargo dog:] "It's a way of burying your head in the sand, because you're not secure enough to deal with death."

What's the best way to deal with the death? Suppose there was a Paradise after death, how can we get there?

Coelacanth: Interesting thread. You're asking a question I've pondered over for years. Here's my take on it.

The short answer is; people DON'T NEED religion anymore than they NEED a new car or a fancy house.

Religion is not a basic necessity to sustain life. If it was, we would not have been here today. Humankind would have disappeared somewhere between being a monkey and becoming man (of course, if you're religious, you don't believe in evolution). Religion is only a form of crowd control, imposed by power hungry people. Religion manipulates the human mind. The reason religion can exist, is because people can't deal with the fact that one day our live's will end. We can't come to terms with that unavoidable destiny of ours. Therefore, we NEED to believe that death is not "the end of the road". This has been going on since the dawn of time (well, since we developed opposable thumbs, anyway). Every community feel the need to have religion. Now, unfortunately, there are only a handful of "accepted" religions left - they've managed to wipe out most of the others. In fact, if it wasn't for the crusades, the vikings would still believe in Odin and Thor; the Indians would still be doing their rain dance and so on. Only because they were given the choice between a "righteous" religion or death, did they become, in this case, Christians.

So again, people don't NEED religion. It's a way of burying your head in the sand, because you're not secure enough to deal with death. AND, because of that insecurity, an easy way for religious leaders to control people.

Just my two cents. Now, let the beating begin. I'm ready. ;-)

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough...

Alain,

So you are a Jew?

I think the only real God is the God of Moses. Egyptian hieroglyphics confirmed the wonders He had done.

If we worship this God, we'll be fine. Shun religions!

I just believed, what my mother said.

__________________________________________

Life is short...300 meter before roundabout!

1) To explain the unexplanable (A moving target as time goes by)

3) To instill common mores (Agreed right from wrong)

2) Socialization (Teach everyone to play nicely together)

_______________________________________________________

"A Wise Man knows what he does not know!"

What about Greek and Roman religions that numerous Gods??

They were just as much an organized religion as any others.

_______________________________________________________

"A Wise Man knows what he does not know!"

Religion exists because God exists and one of the purposes of religion has been to contemplate and revel in the magnificence of God. From time to time religious leaders have provided moral and ethical instruction. The best example of this is the Ten Commandments given to Moses by God on Mount Sinai. All religions preach some form of life after death, whether eternal heaven or hell or rebirth. Religious teachings also chart out the path to be taken so that one’s after life is happy

The issue seems to be the difference between having religious beliefs and believing in an organized religion.

One can believe in God and relate to him on his own level without organized religion. Organized religion is from people and is just another form of politics. A person does not need organized religion to have beliefs including what is right and wrong. When people start messing with the mix that's when the trouble begins.

"Religion is between a man and his God" TJ

_______________________________________________________

"A Wise Man knows what he does not know!"

Dears There is no logic for MR PAUL ,pls post useful answer for Coeln

Alexa

"free will"

Eve screwed us all!!

Im happy in my beliefs thank you.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

As there is black magic in this world, is it Allah who lets these actions be performed or is it Satan who makes these actions possible?

As it is known that it is Allah who controls everything, i.e. all the things going around in this world. Does this mean that black magic is also being performed under Allah's will?

Topic Other

Name of Counselor Shahul Hameed

Answer

Hello Abdul Rehman,

Assalamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah - thank you very much for your question.

Your question is essentially about man’s freedom and God’s control of the future. It takes us back to the eternal question of fate and freewill. In the early history of Islam, we find two sects of believers, called Qadariyya and Jabariyya. The former sect argued that man is totally free in his action, to the extent of denying even God’s foreknowledge. The latter argued that man is like a vegetable, incapable of any free actions!

The truth of the matter can be put thus:

God created man, of all his creatures, a free agent. In fact, this is implied by the status of man as God’s khalifah, or vicegerent on earth. In order to fulfill man’s role as khalifah, he is given many special faculties, as well as the freedom to use those faculties. Thus man is given freewill, the ability to choose actions freely - of course within the bounds of his own natural limitations.

The Holy Qur’an says for example that those who will - may believe, and those who will - may reject the true message from God. That is to say, man is given the freedom of choice there. This is how man becomes responsible for his actions, and becomes liable for punishment or reward. This is because the choice is his.

Still, at the same time, the Almighty God is in control, and he is willfully giving this freedom to man, for he wants to test man.

Testing man is possible, because there are choices before man. That is to say there are wrong ways and right ways of doing things. In short, there is not only good, but also evil. It is part of God’s wisdom that this world offers opportunities for doing good and doing evil. God could have created man as a being incapable of doing evil. Also, He could have created this world as a perfect one, where there is no chance for evil.

Indeed He has created such a world, namely Paradise! But He has also decided that only those who qualify for Paradise can enter there. To find out who qualifies for God’s Paradise, He created this world of good and evil. He has willed it to be so; and it is so!

Black magic is part of the evil of this world. Those who pursue it - will definitely receive their punishment from God. Your question is whether it is God’s will to have black magic! We need to understand that the word ‘will’ means a wish and a deliberate plan for a particular action.

In this sense, God does not ‘will’ that anyone should go for black magic. But God wills the testing of man, for which purpose He has arranged this world. This is why practicing black magic is possible. Consequently, some people seek to practice black magic, against God’s will, but they should pass the test given them, by avoiding black magic altogether.

We need to understand that no one, not even Satan can do anything, if God does not permit it. In this world of freedom, God does not interfere with the freedom He has given to anyone. If that were not so, wars, massacres, robberies and a thousand other iniquities would not have taken place here; and the world would have been a heaven making Paradise superfluous!

On the net readingislam.com

Credit I will never give you Khalid as in my eyes you are a false prophet that has little respect for others and as stated your discussions are always pseudo-scientific and you reality solely hails from your religious convictions.

I would respect you if I were to notice that you respected others. Which you have proven today, yet again, that you don't.

I must say that you do always remain polite, which is respectable.

[quote:] "However, some have used religion for personal gains such as wealth, land and power."

Correct.. The discussion now is not about those who have abused religion, but about the religion itself..

The rest of your post is brain-twisting.. I'll get back to it when I'm back..

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

Keith Ellison is the first Muslim to be elected to the United States Congress

Yusuf Estes, a former Christian minister, became a Muslim chaplain

Claude Alexandre de Bonneval as Humbaracı Ahmet Paşa

Jimmy Cliff, Jamaican reggae musician

Muhammad Ali- a convert to Islam.

Malcolm X- famous Muslim convert and civil rights leader

Mohamed Zakariya

An American master of Arabic calligraphy

Timothy Winter at Al-Hidayah (26 August 2007)

Chris Eubank British boxer

Jewish actress, Leila Mourad

Parameswara (sultan) the Palembang prince of Hindu descent.

West African leader Samori Ture who fought European colonialism

Ice Cube, famous rapper , actor, screenwriter and director.

Swiss explorer, Isabelle Eberhardt

Francis Bok a Sudanese ex-slave forced to convert to Islam

For more information you can go to wekipedia

Even I do not need your credit

Muslim is a person who never hurts others in any mean.

I have only one problem with the religious lot who are so connected to God.. Why do they feel the need to prove their religion is superior to others... wonder if it stems from their own insecurities?

" Your Faith is what you believe, Not what you know"

yawn

Khalid,

Thank you so much for displaying you limited abilities in understanding 'simple' things.

You look at my profile and assume it must be true, just as you do in religious life, your a parrot. Afghanistan is the first location on the list and the way I speak/type English is far from typical Afghani-english. Plus, my job says 'boogieman', you can now conclude that maybe I did not take my profile very serious as in Cyberspace these elements should not matter as it is WRONG to judge somebody on where he comes from. You my friend are an amazing hypocrite.

Equally I would like to thank you for displaying the 'extreme' and 'violent' elements of your convictions. You say "Muslims do not like", speak for yourself. Muslims are supposed to love and respect their neighbors. He whom is without sin throw the first stone.

Do not do upon others as you do not wish for them to do upon you.

You my friend, have the tongue of Sheitan.

To make sure you are not believing in one end or another end.

It makes balance between two ends. If you don't have balance than you don't have any religions.

were circa 400 BC...non??

they beat out the whole lot :) and still do.

Then your speech makes sense according to you have suffered in Afganistan from Taliban.

Taliban is the driving force of your speech.

Remember that Taliban does not represent Islam and Muslims do not like Taliban.

You are contradicting your self if you believe in God and then you say we are the one who decide to be good or bad.

Then answer this questions:

1. Why do you believe in God? in other words what benifits do you get from believing in God?

2. How do you know if there is God?

3. If you believe in God then what will God do to you?

4. How do you what God likes and what God does not like?

I hope you will answer so that people can know more about your belief.

"why do we need religion"

Religion is a result of mental weakness in the minds of peoples. Religion serves as a 'guide for society', a social tool, a tool of fear and a psychological tool.

In times of prosperity we loose God, drop a bomb and we seek God as humans do not appeal to us effectively enough to put fear, worries or such emotions into perspective. In case you talk to something that is 'fictive', you can always rely on that.

"It doesn't need a special person to tell"

Indeed it needs an 'entity' a commonly accepted description of a higher power. This 'higher power' has disciples some false prophets with bad intentions some good disciples that preach as they see fit. The one thing they have in common: The minute one believes his/her religion is the only true religion, they are all WRONG.

"purpose of religion"

Religion is used to get noses in the same direction within societies it creates a common feeling of belonging and this effectively can create peace. However, some have used religion for personal gains such as wealth, land and power.

[quote:] "The Allied leaders thought they were doing God's will."

How so? They were fighting for political reasons.. Jesus did not tell them to fight..Weren't they secular at that time?

Yet today the good city is a city where people respect each other and there is no fight and no wars.

Actually Plato, Aristotle and Socrates are my references and they predate your religion by several hundred years.

so thats the end result brit. and the reason is religion.

______________________________________________

- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -

If God is good (Off course God is good because God like all people and give big chance to those who make sins to come back on the right path)

Then sure God will teach us the good things.

But how do we get these good things? There must be one way and as we do not listen to God, so God sent messengers to teach us the good values and avoid the bad manners.

The process in which God tells his prophet is called Wahy, except Mouses as God spoke to him directly.

We as a human being are very limited in knowledge as every day there is new discovery.

We are the one who bring chaos by not following the good things.

If you start from one point you can not come back unless if there is reference.

Religion is the reference because all religions tell us to do the good things, therefore there is no reason to say that religions are the source of trouble and problems.

At the end if the religion does not make a better person of you, this will be your mistake and it is not the religion mistake.

You have to be open minded and read the full sentence to reach the satisfactory answer.

Religion tells you the purpose of living, can some one who do not have religion tell what is the purpose of living?

Also remember that there is love between animals, shall we just be like animals?

You are the one to decide if this religion suits you or no.

No neccessarily true QatariLady. The Allied leaders thought they were doing God's will.

To each his own.

Some of us find religion helps us and forms the basis of our daily life. Others do not see any use for it.

Religion can and does bind people... leaders sometimes use religion to divide, but that is because people themselves are weak.

Religion did not throw a bomb over Hiroshima.. Greed and stubornness did..

You're right.. don't force it on those who don't need it, and don't deny it on those who do need it either..

End of the day, you look at the balance sheet of what religion has achieved and what it has destroyed so far, I guess the balance would tip in favor of 'no religion'.

Would say religion is like alcohol in some respects. in small doses and so long as you are in control, its fine. You let it control you ( and your judgement/emotions), and things go wrong.

What makes one gud or bad comes from within. Not from religion, not from ethnicity, not from education.

But then, thats just my personal view.

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“Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I made something so bafflingly crazy that the ruins become a tourist attraction..

[quote:] "KNOW HIM...AND KNOW HIM MORE... GIVE TIME TO READ A BIBLE!"

I agree on "know Him more" but I'd suggest read the Quran because the Bible, according to Christians, has been changed and since it's unknown what has been changed so we don't know what to believe in it.

Either you feel you need it or you don't. What does it matter as long as you aren't trying to force it on those who don't need it or need a different kind?

religion cannot save us

What we need is a relationship to God

Then, how do we have a good relationship with God???

KNOW HIM...AND KNOW HIM MORE... GIVE TIME TO READ A BIBLE!

when you hitchhike only 2 kinds of people pick you up,,,good people and wierdos,,,and neither ones are hyprocrates.

What devides ppl is evil, greed, injustice ..stc. of which religion keeps you clear..

mmyke/colecanth - am with you.. it parted people, killed millions , still keeps killing. We dont need it.

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- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -

religion only divides peoples, it never brings them together,,,,,,an it is especially true of the 3 middle eastern religions.

You need a religion so eventually when everyone goes to Paradise you're not left behind..

Nadt...yeah...i spoke to him and told me to tell it to you so that you'll know that it's him. Happy now with your sarcasm?

Analyze all religions...the bottomline of all teaching is to Love. Islam teaches peace, and peace is a product of Loving and forgiving your enemy. Same goes with Christianity. Same goes with Buddhism and the rest. Tell me, who doesn't teach Love and Forgiveness in their religion? Do i need religion to know all of this? I don't think so. If there is no Religion, there will be PEACE on earth. The ONLY thing that's dividing us all is neither race nor belief, but Religion. Even before we were born, the first recorded WAR is Religious War. No Religion, No war. Believe that there is God and do good to others. You don't need Religion to tell you what's right from wrong. You only need to think.

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

Well it works better than the treat-others-as-you-want-to-be-treated thing, mostly because soem people WANT to be treated badly and they just throw off the curve ;)

Qwertyness,

Had to give you props on the "not-being-a-jerk" rule. It's a good rule. That is what I TRY to live by :). If only everybody tried to live by that rule!!!

Never forget the things that really do matter...

It's called the not-being-a-jerk rule. Pretty simple.

I think religion is the fall back for peopel who are genereally cynical about the state of mankind. people who believe people are at heart for the most part good, willing to help each other and be compassionate don't need men in robes yelling about hell as much as people hwo bascially thinks mankind is doomed from the get go. It's probably why so many religious people seem hung up on the sinful nature of people....keeps those seats full!

coolecanth qoute "I am a firm believer that there is God, but the existence of different Religion is just so...confusing. God only teaches us 2 things: to Love and Forgive."

So how do you know god wants you to love and forgive? Did you speak to him directly and he informed you to love and forgive, where did that message derive from initially?

Religion is a a guide, if your are by nature a good person, religion will make you a better person no what matter what religion you beleive in, if your a bad person, religion will not help you at all, you will continue to be bad no matter what your religion teaches you.

Religion got me a detention when I was 13, I swore I'll never do it again! (religion that is) Not laugh hysterically at a spider on the wall in church...and a catholic church at that!!

"The more primitive a people are, the more deistic the religion which flourishes among them," once said a wise man.

...and to think that we are sooo modern these days, that's why...

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

MD: Yes, that was a wize man.

Now replying to post question:

It's easy to obey God, what has spoiled everything is the belief that a human can hold all God's knowledge.

Every People on Earth pretend to be God/Allah's favourite and some of them will follow their faith without questionating themselves, Jews said Moses was a profet, Christians say that Jesus of Nazareth was a profet, muslims say that Mohamed was the last profet, other religions more recent see other folks as profets too, should we consider Nostrodamus a profet? He made a lot of profecies that were confirmed, should we create the Nostrodamusism?

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

"The more primitive a people are, the more deistic the religion which flourishes among them," once said a wise man.

I agree. it's the difference between spirituality and belief and religion. spirituality and belief is the sense of faith that can guide some lives, a belief in a higher power, all that. religion is the way other humans try to control each other and themselves, and the thing that I think, generally just causes more problems, as by it's definition it's exclusionary and divisive- which is the exact opposite of what faith shoudl do.

This is not a discussion about religion. It is a discussion as to why religion should be included as part of our being. I don't need religion to thank someone for the gifts that was given to me. I can thank God for the grace, but that doesn't mean that i should be inclined to any religion to be able to thank God. Do you need religion to do good things? I don't think so. How many religions exists in the world, with everyone claiming to be the only way to salvation? With all this differences in belief, who would you turn to? I can be a good person without religion, but that doesn't mean i don't believe that there is God. Religion for me is the same as politics. you have to take your side, and some people do play dirty. Religion is politics. no difference.

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

Its obvious that the most happening forum's in qatar living is all about this, that religion.

I propose another website to the Moderator.

QatarReligion.com - A website to carter all the repeated talks about religion.

And Qatar Living shall move on in peace...

Cheers

So what happens if your an aetheist and just happen to be a really good person and have a really good life

just eat another pie

coelacanth I was refering to the spritual side of religion like Budhism teaches what I wrote so does Chritianity and Sufism or mystism in Islam.

Control your self control the world

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HE WHO DARES WINS

You do not need a relegion to be a good or a kind hearted person.

BUT

You do need a relegion to thank God for all what he gave you. God gives health, money, children, happiness, and a lot of other things to you.

If your boss gives you 1000 Qar as a bonus every month, can you tell me what you will do? You will thanking him every day, meeting with him, and obey all his orders.

That is Boss, normal human being not the creator. You should have releigion to thank God as you thank your boss, pray for him as you you will always meet your boss, and obey his orders, not any other orders as you obey your boss' orders.

If you thank anybody other than your boss who is giving you the bonus, your boss will get angry with you. Same thing with God, you should thank him only, and not having anyone as intermediate or a partner with him.

Please think again people, things are not so simple as you imagine. There is an ultimate power who controls everything on earth and everywhere.

If you have more questions or comments, I will be happy to answer, and I can talk to you over the phone also.

E-mail [email protected]

Being good or bad is down to the individual person.

There are plenty of atrocities committed in the name of one religeon or another that are deemed religeously acceptable by the perpatrators and not acceptable by anyone else.

There have been many peoploe around the world, and still are some tribes, who have never heard of religeon. Does anyone think that this makes it impossible for these people to be good just because they have no religeous guidance

just eat another pie

Those are not bad parents...only irresponsible. It's their choice to be like that, given the situation. How many of you here would do such thing to your kids? What if they are part of some weird religion that teaches them to do or teach that to their kids? Remember the "religion" in the US where they share their spouses to have sex?

Amoud, good family values come from the parent's choice to show and teach good values to their kids. Do you need religion to tell you that you are not suppose to steal? Basic aspects of our lives are mold inside our house, and you don't need religion to realize it.

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

notfromhere...aren't you old enough to remind yourself about the choices that you make? AFAIK, only kids needs to be reminded because they really have no idea about right and wrong.

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

Where do you think good family values come from?

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

It is not as simple as that.. There are good parents and bad parents..

Look at the reality shows like Jerry Springer etc... Would you regard those as good parents and do you believe that they would pass on good values to their offspring ?

"Religion doesn't make a good person out of you, it's your choice to become a good person".

coelacanth, religion guides us and reminds us to keep making those choices.

qwertyness, true religion is in one's heart and doesn't have anything to do with those little soapboxes. How each person practices their religion is another matter. Some are misinformed. Nobody's perfect. Most of us, I feel, do our best to keep trying to get it right.

I am with u coelacanth.....

Britexpat...you don't need religion to provide frmework and guidance of your existence...everyone calls them "Parents". Our parents taught us everything, which should be enough to build our framework of existence. They guide us in everything, from starting to talk, to walking, and even telling us what is right and wrong. What did our Parents miss during our formative years that religion is providing now?

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

What you say occurs, and in reality is the misuse and the mis representation of religion..

UKEngQatar, it's not religion that made you to control yourself...its yourself. You don't need religion to teach you how to respect, or love, or help those in need...it's human nature.

qwertyness...imagine a suicide bomber being "glorified by God" after he killed hundreds of innocent people and children...such lame excuse! Kill more to be glorified, is that what they're teaching says? I think not!

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

but why do we need religion to do that? Why can't we all just be GOOD PEOPLE?

this is the difference- I'm not sure where I stand on this whole god thing, but i understnad that for some, a relationship with a higher power, a sense of spirituality, can help shape how they move through day to day life.

but the thing is....the bizarre rules and nit picking of organized religion really doesn't really do that, in fact, it may do the opposite.

basically I like to thing that spirituality is all about feeling connected to the world at large, soemthign bigger, as well as the community and your fellow human beings. organized religion does nothing but separte us into little soapboxes from where we can harange each other about how we're right and you're wrong, and god loves us so much more than you na na na na boo boo.

Agree with britexpat

I dream of a better tomorrow where Chickens can cross the Road without having their motives questioned - Unknown

Some of us need religion to provide the framework for our existence. Others need it to provide guidance.

It gives some of us, including me a focus and guides me in all aspects of my life..

Some of us need religion to provide the framework for our existence. Others need it to provide guidance.

It gives some of us, including me a focus and guides me in all aspects of my life..

If religion makes you to self restrain you self and control over you mind and soul, teaches you to respect and tolerate then I am all for it..other wise like Gypsy says what if we find at the end day that there is no heaven or hell??

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HE WHO DARES WINS

point in case: if religion made you a good person, all those child abusing priests would be better than the rest of us who, you know, DON'T rape kids.

Hahahaha...just want to see what people from ALL nationalities think of Religion. Does Religion make a better person out of you? I think it's the other way around. Religion doesn't make a good person out of you, it's your choice to become a good person. Do you need Religion to teach you good manners? It's all about choice. Religion is just used as a "Holy Excuse" to justify our actions.

It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!

oohh now you're sounding all Martin Luther-y. getting ready to nail some long-window treatise on the nearest church/mosque's door?

beyond that I agree: i think the problem many people have with religion has nothing to do with spirituality or belief, and everything to do with the interpretation of different ways to prove god-loves-you-best.

I can have a more spiritual experience sitting on a rock in the middle of the wilderness than crammed in a church hearing some loud-mouth harrange me about how i've sinned this way or that way. i can lead a moral life based on the very simple don't-be-a-jerk edict, and let the rest of the details that mean nothing (eating pork, covering my nose, going to church every sunday and hating fabulous men) hang.