Villaggio fire report: Here's what happened

Whats the need for personal insults?... that too in this thread?

nice comment on the drunkard Flor.....

Flor, the thing is that I never read any of your posts completely usually

sorry but it is hard for me to change my impression about a low life :)

nothing personal flor,

who appreciated the little info I shared. This is QL!

Wow flor, very informative, thanks for posting.

any suggestion? We are not talking of residential structure here although there are small similarities. Or you just comment because you're the only on board here who don't appreciate even a LITTLE of what I commented. What I commented are based on my actual observation and for the little information I could share so fellow Qlers can see it more objectively.

Guys, This has nothing to do with management. I went through this same process. When you open a company the only thing the fire department does is very top level checking.

Root cause?

The system! Allowing monkeys to practice disciplines they are not aware of.

I had to redo my electric connections 3 times because people who worked on them, that I paid, had no clue and yet they are licensed to work! - How can the consumer tell if the person doing the job is an idiot? No one says I don't know how to do that in Qatar because everyone is after the cash.

The Devil in Qatar is contracting companies. There are absolutely NO rules assigning anyone to do any job in Qatar. As long as the Visa and the sponsor is settled, you can allow them to build a space ship!

Thanks Flor.

As you say, MOST tenants opened in Villagio after the mall itself initially opened. I recall only Carrefour and maybe Starbucks being there in the first few weeks.

Therefore it is terrifying to think that possibly civil defense don't do follow up inspections in a mall AFTER it has opened, particularly, as you say, when MOST shops move in during this second phase.

I don't know what happened when the fire crews arrive. Did they enter the mall, go from shop to shop and ask mall staff and security if everyone is out? I don't know.

But what we do know already is pretty clear:

1 - The mother of one of the children stuck in the nursery claims to have repeatedly tried to tell the fire crews about the children, but was told to go away.

2 - All fatalities were in the nursery, so it's a bit moot to wonder what the fire crews did for the other stores, when the investigation is for the purposes of finding out how 19 people lost their lives in the nursery area.

I don't think that the report comes to any clear conclusion about why it was that so many people died due to an electrical fault. But what is clear is that there were systematic failings across the board.

That such a tiny fault could cause such damage and so much loss of life seems to suggest that almost everything that could go wrong, did go wrong.

1. Not only the "nursery" almost all the tenants came in after the opening of the mall and before the fire.

2, Correct, both are aware.

3. Those who responded are unaware. Did it say that only Gympanzee they don't know? Do you thing the firemen who responded knew all tenants in all malls?

True there were miscoordination that happened but in a panic situation, normalcy is a rare case.

True, the mall management do have a big responsibility and the incident that happened is I believe a product of OVERLOOKing some procedures that needs to be taken care of.

If someone bothered to look at the electrical panel it would show signs of burning. It's my understanding the actual fire won't take place right away. Now if you have a good electrician looking at the electrical panel, they could figure out if an additional wires were added after the tenant improvement because it will be on the outside of the wall. Do you know where the fire had begun? Was it where the actual electrical panel was? Was it inside the walls? etc.? My previous tenant put nails hitting the wires every foot apart inside of the walls but luckily none of them sparked off during the 5 years. Not to mention he put a small hole where the refrigerator units on top of the roof. Luckily, the earthquake slanted my roof so the water pulled to the other side. But, he crossed all the wires from 110 to 220. The electrical panel was burning slowly. Of course, when my attorneys' went in for an inspection there was a brand new electrical panel.

When the tenant does improvement, the mall's management is allowed to charge a over seeing fee. Which means that someone from landlord who is independent from the person doing the construction stands there the entire time watching the tenant making improvement according to their plans. Therefore, again the finger points at the landlord. In the lease it requires that you ask for the landlords permission in writing before you do any construction.

I'm still not sure I'm understanding you Flor.

At some point between when the mall was certified to be initially opened, and the day of the fire, the mall management allowed a "nursery" to lease space on an upper level.

Various govt departments were aware of this, since the business held a collection of official registrations etc. The mall management were obviously aware of this, since they signed the lease.

I cannot conceive of a scenario to explain how it was that Civil Defense, who we are told do regular inspections and spot checks and testing, were UNAWARE that there was a nursery, and that the nursery didn't meet health and safety requirements.

The 2 simplest explanations that come to mind are:

1 - Civil Defense never carried out any inspections of the building and were never made aware of the nursery's location.

2 - Civil Defense were told about the nursery, but failed to keep their records up to date, so that when the fire broke out the fire crews did not have up to date information.

Can anyone think of other explanations?

at Nike shop. I would presume it was done during the fit-out. Was the sprinkler system at that area (where the fire start) modified or not? Was all the tenants who did their fit-outs made the necessary modifications in the sprinkler system which caused the WHOLE system to fail? Who knows?

Again, need to go further to know who is to take the blame.

A periodic inspection is one of the best recommendation to make sure all system go specifically the emergency system which include but not limited to fire system.

either way, some will take the blunt of the OVERLOOK.

For me, it should be a wake-up call to the Mall management to strengthened their engineering bureau who handles all tenants-improvement. One need to go to the root. This department should have the guts to say to a prospective tenant, "you can't put that appliance cause it's beyond the electrical capacity as provide, or you can not put too much improvement unless you modify the sprinkler system". There are really extra provision for safety which was incorporaed in the original plan but this provision should not in any way abused by going to or beyond the limit.

Each space in a mall subject for lease has it's own provision specifically electrical provisions. When you go around mall and visit boutiques, you will see the lightings and lighting effects being use. These are supposedly check as it will not overload the capacity as given.

And also, this tenant-improvement will do a separate wiring works, that's where the inspection should be stricter. Are they using standard or sun-standard wire (I don't know if this is beyond CD responsibility, checking the new wiring system). If they added ceilings, they need to modify the sprinkler system, again need to be verified and checked.

Very informative flor, thanks for sharing.

Thanks Flor. Those posts were very informative. So in your opinion who do you think is to blame?

CD do their job after the construction period before a occupancy permit is given. But with the full construction boom in Qatar right now, how many staff does CD needs to attend to all these inspections (aside from reviewing the new ones).

Precisely Design Consultants are hired to do these plans and drawings and these consultants hires highly-qualified engineers (structural, electrical, mechanical not limited to HVAC but piping works such as Fire protection system, architects, landscape architects, etc etc.).

These consultants (we call here PRE-CONTRACT) has a counterpart, the POST-CONTRACT group which do the site inspection. These people are the one in-charge of checking all the works of the contractor including material acquisitions and fixing and installations.

So these site inspectors by a private consultants have all the records pertaining to a certain projects. These same people should be responsible that what was in the design be executed UNLESS some changes (which maybe due to site condition or owner-initiative or unavailabilty of certain brands of materials) are properly recorded and should be reflected in the As-built.

All these record are kept and inspected by or some are submitted to CD for verification. So what CD people will do is random checking (specifically for huge project like mall) BUT they are very specific on FIRE-Protection system here in Qatar. Smoke extraction fans are physically tested. Fire sprinkler system are tested to the point that they will test randomly the sprinkler heads by lighting it and check if it will function. They will check the Fire Pump if it is sufficient or as per specified.

If we go on details, you will be surprise how gargantuan is the work of CD and honestly, I admire the patience of these people.

So are you arguing Flor that the bulk of the irresponsibility lies with the MOI for not keeping their records up to date, or with Villagio for not informing the MOI of changes to the building's use and layout?

If Government agencies only exist to punish people after they do something wrong, rather than acting as bodies who ensure compliance through spot checks and inspections, then we all have a lot to worry about.

and TFS Flor. "Specific responsibilities should be studied very carefully as not to repeat the tragedy." This is so true!

since they publish the report already.

Most government offices look to see if the blue print of the wiring plans were properly stamped by an electrical engineering company. In addition, to being licensed and bonded.

I had a similar case where I hired 3 attorneys and lost 5 years of rent income to chase this tenant who was trying to burn down my commercial building for insurance proceeds. What ever the tenant does the owner of the building is 100% liable. So to prevent problems the owner of the building has to hire a general contractor who has a licensed for being an electrician and because of the heavy equipment hire an HVAC licensed contractor. We normally should perform inspections every year. If you suspect something is wrong you could do it every 3 months. The small box connected to the main box should be turning off if there is a problem. Unless, they had 110 hooked directly to the 220. Then the landlords inspector should catch this mistake. Otherwise, the general contractor who inspected the box will be liable.

Thanks for the info.

Thank you for taking the time to explain the process and thus how to establish responsibility. I found your posts to be informative. :)

lets have a scenario, Gympanzee was not there and there were people trap in the stockroom of Nike. So the report will say, "they don't even know that there was a stockroom at the back of the shop".

Do they even know there is Gondolania there and what is its function?

Of course the criminal liabilities is now under the prosecutors' office to further investigate. Specific responsibilities should be studied very carefully as not to repeat the tragedy.

Let's just boil it down to the main comments:

"The Committee has reached the following results: - The Committee found a status of lack of adherence to laws, systems, and measure by all concerned parties to different degree. This includes adherence to design, license, and safety conditions, which contributed to Villagio catastrophe. The "Gympanzee" shop was not licensed as a nursery by the Ministry of Social Affairs and thus did not have the necessary safety conditions. "

...

" There was a lack of response among the Villagio security team, including the Nike store's staff. The Committee found that there are no effectual plans at Villagio meant to prevent, contain or at least reduce the effects of such an incident. For example, there was no early warning detection system in the commercial complex.

Poor coordination between government agencies responsible for public safety besides deficiencies in fire standards, which extend beyond Villagio and Gympanzee into other buildings in Qatar. These buildings are not adhering to the laws and measures regarding safety and fire-fighting."

Plenty of blame to go around.

The mall didn't meet its licensing requirements.

Gympanzee didn't meet its licensing requirements.

Mall security staff failed.

Firefighters didn't have correct maps of the mall (it was a full 30 minutes between when they arrived and when they realised there was even a "nursery").

In my opinion this report makes it clear that no one involved in this tragedy can honestly say "I did all I can, but was let down by others".

he just never stfu... even though no one is asking him lmao

individual spaces in the mall is under the CD, then they have really something to answer. If it is already relegated to the Mall Management, then the burden is with them.

The gympanzee was just a very unfortunate incident as that space is not suitable for such kind of function UNLESS a separate smoke extraction fan was provided (and that is not cheap). So either it was rented as a nursery or different function and there were person there during that unfortunate fire, it's the same scenario.

The question now is, who approved the interior fit-out plans of spaces in Villagio? WAs it directly to the CD or to the mall management? There lies the responsibility.

you won't understand this anyway!

wiring entrance cable just to accommodate the requirement of the tenant.

Now, I don't know if they do that here or the most they can do is to limit the appliances to the provisions as given from the original design.

In this Villaggio case, who inspected the construction (fit-out) of the said shop (Nike). There was a mezzanine as mentioned, I would presume the purpose was to be the stock room. Was the original wiring provision capacity followed. WAs the fire protection provision including but not limited to fire sprinkler system inside the shop changed to adapt to the design of the shop? (there are different kinds of firesprikler heads based on the structures to be protected (ceiling, above ceiling, woods papers and cartons, the stockage room are filled with boxes of shoes so very flammable materials).

u managed? looooooooooooooooooool

Was it part of a circus?

which cage they put you in flor? lmao... silly flor :).. u don't manage nothin hehehe

wanted to open it after the inspection of relevant government agencies and they did after satisfying the requirements based on the original drawing, plans and specification as submitted before the actual construction.

Where is the "overlook"?

When the mall started to lease the spaces. Who checks?

Five years ago, I managed (as Owner's construction representative) a huge mall in Shanghai China. Our company has many divisions including the Engineering, Leasing, MArketing etc etc. The MArketing is ooking for clients to occupy certain spaces and once a deal is broken, the leasing department comes in and deal with the client. Client submit the fit-out plans and these plans are reviewed by the Engineering group to check whether the provisions for utilities as provided can meet the requirement of the leasee or tenant-to-be. In most cases, even if in the original provisions, they maximise the electrical requirements, the tenant usually bring-in heavy electrical appliances (especially if it a restaurant or coffee shops).

Yeah flor, maybe these designers were always on Qatarliving during their office hours like someone I know!

A big mall like Villaggio was constructed based on the design and as approved by the Civil Defense Department (yes, all plans passes through CD prior to given a permit to start work). The designer or consultant already based their specifications and design criteria on what foreseen to be the mall when it is operational.

But of course the mall at the start is not yet leased individually except for the big areas pre-leased by whoever. But for the small other shops, all are provisions including all the facilities such as electrical, plumbing (if it needs if the area is allocated for eateries or restaurants) etc etc. But as a whole, there are general requirements such as fire sprinklers, smoke extraction fans pressurized escape routes and exits etc etc.

I heard that it started from Mcdonalds kitchen...now it is nike... :(

qatar government must think about these serious issues i think there was lack of communication so will be better if they will display the evacaution plan and floor plan of the buildings (shopping centres etc) on the main entrance so will be help full in such traggic events.

now the investigations are done..

when will we reach the final verdict?