Troy Davis to be executed!

We live in the modern day where laws are made by men. These laws are made usually for the benefit of society. We can cange them from within - if we disagree wit them.

My discussion was not about the law itself, but the length of time many inmate spend on death row and the numerous appeals they are entitled to.

"An eye for an eye" was the Mosaeic law of the Old Testament. Jesus however said: Forgive your enemy. It was a major development in the thinking of the people. Unfortunately times are going backwards in some countries and some person's minds. 

an eye for an eye will make the world blind... so will a leg for a leg make the whole world lame... but hey its justice.. and is economic...but with the modern lawyers making truth of a lie... it may be unfair... for the less fortunate.  

capital punishment varies from state to state.Some states have legislatively abolished the death penalty. but I totally agree about the time and tax payers money, there are cases in which inmates are on death row for more than 20 years.

You do realize who repeals, changes, compliments and supplements laws right Flor? 

following! precisely you are not killing or stealing 

Until it is repealed, changed, complimented, supplemented or whatever, it will remain the law of the land.  And all citizens, no matter how you believe in it should follow it.

Until it is repealed, changed, complimented, supplemented or whatever, it will remain the law of the land.  And all citizens, no matter how you believe in it should follow it.

I don't follow any law book, flor. They are all flawed. However, society took good care of me, and I have no problem not to kill or to steal!

I'm not a Libyan!And if you follow the news, the NTC wants to prosecute Khadafi inside Libya and not at the ICC using their own law.Tell me now LP, will you follow Khadafi Green Book?

You do understand that people create laws right Flor.  So really it is up to us to define the "law books" as you put it.

Gaddafi also wrote a "Law" book, his "Green Book'. Flor, you have to follow it. It's the law.

because i'm not so I can't judge a person whether guilty or not of any crime. I can not say what is heinous for me or for you, it is NOT us to define it but the Law Book. Do you ever understand that?

Your inability to "read" my last 2 posts puts your perspective in perspective.

Thanks for the debate - was good.

backread and you'll find what you want to know from me.  I have answered that and you are dumb if you will execute somebody who hanged your dog! Backread again and check definition of heinous crime?

Your refusal to answer a simple question indicates that you are less than convinced with your own position on the issue leading me to believe that actually, its YOU who doesnt understand the subject.

What is heinous?? Who determines heinous??

Give me your definition of heinous Flor and I'll give you mine and then we will determine if we should hang the guilty party.

I for example think it is heinous to hang a dog by its neck from a lampost for fun - would you execute said perpetrator for this crime?

you want to farther go away with the subject and I won't give you that satisfaction. If you are a keen reader, you must have realize my position to your question. Or you just refuse to understand it?

members are WHAT???????????????????????And you are wrong if you are thinking I am advocating DP for Travis.  I don't know the guy and I am talking of another subject, not Davis!If I ask you, are you in favor of DP in general speaking? For heinous crimes, what sayeth you?

I'm perfectly fine with that Flor.  An eye for an eye makes a world of the blind after all.

Sorry Flor, Im going to call you on that. You are attempting to swerve my question hypothetical as it maybe - you are stating quite srongly on here that you are in support of the death penalty upon conviction without exception. Im asking you if you were convicted of a crime that you didnt commit and were facing execution would you be SO adamant in your views. Your thoughts please?

will not let them be hanged because they know you hate DP! So these crime relatives who will presumably out of anger will kill you for saying you don't want the guy who killed their love one. 

So you advocating death for someone without knowing the facts of the crime? By the way facts of the crime are available on Amnesty Internation website and on a 100 other websites.

you know I can'y answer that because I don't know the facts of the crime

Then they will be murderers Flor. No better than the person who killed their loved one.  Is this the kind of society you want to live in?

According to Amnesty International, 137 countries have abolished the death penalty. Argentina, Chile, and Uzbekistan outlawed the death penalty in 2008. During 2007, 24 countries, 88% in China, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United States alone, executed 1,252 people compared to 1,591 in 2006. Nearly 3,350 people were sentenced to death in 51 countries. More than 20,000 prisoners are on death row across the world.Read more: The Death Penalty Worldwide — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html#ixzz1Yg6SUhWy Obviously the US are one of the "vicious" countries! And you, flor, better not go to those 137 without death penalty. You might get disappointed.

yourself! I won't guarantee that they will not kill you themselves! Lol!

Forget the diversion now and tell me, Should Davis have died?

of this case on all angles?  Are you saying the US Supreme Court is stupid to allow the execution?@Rnadomguy, the thread was diverted by the comment of Brit and the succeeding comments farther brought it to another subject.@Chairboy, it will not happen to me, first I'm not American so US supreme court has no jurisdiction over me.  Second, this is not my story.  And all your scenarios are presumptions! 

So, leading on from that, because there was considerable doubt surrounding the conviction of Troy Davis, he should NOT have been executed, it should have been stayed - it was just expedient to go ahead with it and get "closure" - ergo, it IS possible on those grounds to throw suspicion on the ligitimacy of the death penalty - or do we want to cherry pick the crimes for which we will apply the DP - I think not as that way lies madness!!

"You want them to stay alive and die naturally even if they have done heinous crimes?"Yes, absolutely.  I want no one's blood on my hands.    

Yes, flor. It has to be beyond any doubt, which is impossible. The society should rather do everything to PREVENT criminality. Punishing is easy. If you have children, do you beat them or do you make sure they know right from wrong? Society has children, and leaves them utterly alone!!

Blimey is this still going on!!

Flor, so there you are incarcarated for a crime you didnt commit and in 24 hours time someone is going to stick a needle in your arm and snuff out your existence - how you feeling about that??

The thread is about Troy davis..Simple question- Should he have been executed?? 

as your reactionjs to Brit's initial comment.Now if you want to go on specific, I may agree with those falsely accused. But my positioned was what about those who were caught on act and those proven beyond reasonable doubt (which you also questioned).  You want them to stay alive and die naturally even if they have done heinous crimes?

Yes, flor, I think the US is governed by the dictatorship of stupidity and greed. It doesn't matter if the representatives are elected. They do everything to lull the voters to confuse them.

Did you miss my entire post about empathizing with criminals Flor?  See you missed that, just like someone sitting on a jury might miss a crucial bit of evidence because they were too busy thinking about something else.

And yes I do empathise with Davis as should every human with a conscience. 

USA et al are dictatorships? 

Troy Davis was killed WITHOUT evidence on the basis of testimony of other suspect in the case. It doesn't matter if you are FOR or AGAINST death penalty. He shouldn't have been killed.

Your question is suggestive, flor. You should ask Pilgram if she sympathizes with humans who have been accused of being criminals.

We already have some "laws" which are not governed by power-hungry dictators, flor: The Human Charter of the United Nations. But, how many(member)-states are violating them out of internal interests!

do you emphatize with criminals?

What I want is not important. FAct is, that the "laws" are made by the people in power! That doesn't make them any better, does it?

Yes I do have empathy for them Flor.  Because I look at what made them become drug pushers, rapists and murderers in the first place.  I look at the poverty, abuse, neglect, etc that they may have grown up with.  I look at their learning and mental disabilities, that cause them to not quite grasp the seriousness of their actions. Even criminals are people flor.

so who do you want to make the law? YOU? and people like YOU? 

Ex, we've tried the "harsh" lesson for centuries, and all it did was further emotionally & physically scar people who were more than likely already emotionall & physicall scarred, and ended up making them more dangerous than they were when we put them in jail in the first place.  The most successful jail systems rehabilate their prisoners and give them a sense of purpose in life and skill sets to survive in the real word when they are released.I'm surprised by how many people have no issue putting to death a person who might be innocent just because 12 people (or in some cases 1 person) thinks they might be guilty of a crime.  Especially since every single one of those jury members are capable of making mistakes and misinterperting facts, and are easily swayed by the best lawyer (who often is not the lawyer being used by the accused).

The problem is that the "law" is not made by people who love people. It is made by people who want to secure their power. That's the problem! How can you trust such law?

flor, there is a death penalty if you insult the leader of this country. Is that okay? There is a death penalty if you want to change the government, because it is ruthless. Okay?

drug pushers, pedophiles etc etc! Do you?

so witness is now the culprit? For not helping the victims? You are a good defense counsel, LP!

That also happened to numerous Kurds in Iraq. The "law" sentenced them to death!

Pilgram ... u r apt for humanitarian services... really... u have the knowledge and emotion. btw.. jails are supposed to teach a lesson to the inmates... so that once they are released they dont wish to come back. now that lesson has to be harsh or else imprisonment will be confused with 'free food and stay' scheme. i guess.

The point is that if they have been found guilty in a court of law and sentenced to death - as per the laws of the land. Then they should be put to death and not expect the taxpayer to pay for the upkeep for the rest of their lives.

No wonder you do Flor.  A lack of empathy with your fellow human beings is a rather large sign of sociopathy you know. 

my comment?  No wonder you don't support death penalty!

flor, you will go to court for not helping the victims!

do you need to prove anything more? Let's abolish the LAW. So these criminals can do what they want and never to fear to be hanged!

Well if you're so jealous of their life flor I highly recommend you go to jail and see how "cushy" it is for yourself.   Perhaps quite a few of them weren't sleeping in "nice" beds and didn't have 3 square meals a day or "nice" clothes and that's why they decided to go to jail.  So we should kill them?The point of jail is not to torture people, we're supposed to be civilized and beyond inflicting pain on our fellow human beings no matter how different they are from you, the point of jail is to seperate people who cannot interact appropriately in society from those who do and if possible rehabilitate those people.

"Capital Punishment in case the criminals are proved guilty beyond any doubt."And this exactly is impossible!

so we need to work hard and pay more taxes!  These "good" people deserves to live comfortably!A lot of people don't even have a bed to sleep on and they have nice beds.  Others don't have good clothes, they have nice uniforms. A lot don't have food to eat but these people eat on time. Etc etc etc!

Ya. The finite time would be when the person dies on their own.

There has to be a finite time for everything. You can't wait indefinitely hoping that evidence will appear or scientific breakthroughs will aid the person. 

Brit one appeal is often not enough.  There often isn't any new evidence to change things, new evidence sometimes pops up decades later (look at the spat of overturned convictions when DNA evidence began being used).  This is why you can't just have one appeal or kill someone right away. And I understand that when a crime happens people become emotional and want the person dead, but how does killing a criminal because you feel sad and angry make you any different than him or her?  If we're happy to kill people in fits of revenge than why bother with a justice system at all?

Brit - why only one appeal - when should that be?? If we wait for science to catch up and question the legitimacy of the verdict as in the case of the development of DNA, its gonna be too late!!

Flor, you have swerved my question concerning you in the Troy Davis position??

This is why i believe that one appeal should be allowed.

we may differ in defining it, so let the law define it!

how do you define heinous?

go on, explain more!

ok we re on different sides and will have to agree to disagree in this case - unfortunately, that wont bring back Troy Davis!!

Now its time for lunch which, incidentally, Mr Davis wont be joining us for unfortunatley.

and Tink surely it depends on irrevocable evidence to determine the individuals guilt in the matter. Would you advocate the dp if there was concern that the guilty verdict was unsound?? Because that was the case here.

There are issues here - if a person is found guilty on the evidence presented at the time and executed then I understand that - I dont agree with it because of the subsequent point Im going to make, but I undestand it.

My argument is that if subsequent to the verdict, evidence is produced that contradicts the verdict or throws it into the unsound verdict category then there is a problem and unfortunately because of the irreveribility of the dp, its a problem that cant be undone irrespective of the crime however heinous.

your comment is "a sweeping" against the death penalty, not only in the case above.

it's personal but it doesn't mean the LAW will agree with you.  Now if you will have the power to repeal that Death Penalty in the LAW, then go on, by all means. I will even defend your right to stand against it, but we just in the opposite side.

Its not contravertial Flor, I just dont happen to believe in the death penalty per se because of cases like the one posted by the OP - I would refer you to Pilgram's statement that if, god forbid, you found yourself accused and wrongly convicted and faced the death penalty for a crime that you didnt commit, would you willing go to your death knowing that you were an innocent man??

This is arguably the positon that this guy in Georgia found himself in and in the case that we are discussing, I felt that there was certainly enough doubt to justify a retrial and not kill him and to hell with the consequences.

Capital Punishment in case the criminals are proved guilty beyond any doubt.

Majority people supported the capital punishment in Pakistan for the following henious crime.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14998394

You are ofcourse correct. The obvious answer is to have a referendum in the states or countries and let the majority decide. I will go along with that.

the question is, WHO prevails? Unless the LAW is revised, change or removed or whatever, it will remain the law.  Unless you want a lawless society!

You know Flor, you can actually disagree with the law.  That's the beauty of a democracy.  You don't have to agree with everything the government tells you. 

As stated, read my contribution on the issue posted at 10.08 - thats my position.

"punished according to law" but the law allowed capital punishment for certain crimes?  So where are you? Are you for death penalty or for the law? Are you sure you know the difference between the two?

They are human by definition, you could argue that their behaviour isnt.

If they are convicted of the crimes they are accused off and are guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" then they should be punished according to the law. This discussion is about the appropriateness of Capital Punishment and that of course is divisive and accords to individual opinion - I have expressed mne earlier - I see no reason to repeat it.

Let's ignore for a moment the whole moral issue of execution (i.e. doesn't killing a murderer make you a murderer).  If you look at stats out of the U.S., which arguably has the "best" system in place to ensure that only the guilty are killed (of which multiple appeals are a neccessary part), not only are the innocent still killed, but death row states tend to have more prisoners (not to mention that most of these prisoners are black, poor and many have learning disabilities), higher murder rates,and statistically more tax money is spent on one death row prisoner than on a "lifer" due to the appeals process and the cost of "keeping"  a death row prisoner (as they are generally given solitary cells, better food, etc).If you don't believe me google all these stats, I don't have the time at the moment!

murderers, robbers who kills, drug pushers (big time) etc etc, humans? Those pedophiles who preys on innocent yound children? Humans? Your opinion!

but it's in the law!  If it is the government implementing it, it's not called murder, it's justice being carried out. Go and question the law and maybe, MAYBE they will abolished it!Does it matter whether I support it or not.  To me, implement the law, fair and square! How fair and square it is, that's another story!

There are some interesting arguments going on here....

Surely humans who act like animals , should be treated as such."

What does that even mean Brit and how does it relate to a discussion on Capital Punishment?

So Flor, you appear to be supporting state sanctioned murder in the name of justice right??

We are not living in a perfect society. Surely humans who act like animals , should be treated as such. 

it is proving the guilt!  So it's the procedures or system to be reviewed, not the penalty!

A look at some other controversial death row caseshttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8780828/Troy-Davis-execution-other-controversial-death-row-cases.htmlDo check http://mississippiinnocence.org/mission/ as well..

They don't differ in 'magnitude', They differ in the scale.

shoukld also questioned the other penalties! Why, the only difference is magnitude. Say, if a tyrant is captured, what do you think is the just penalty? Reclusion Perpetua?

IF we want to be different from animals, we cannot afford death penalty!

has conscience?

veryone will be guilty!If you caught a person in the act (say robbery and kill his victim), is he not entitled to put to deat penalty?

LP as i mentioned earlier, yes. sometimes life sentence can be more "punishing" than death penalty. if the murderer has a conscience...

ur against the death penalty in general, i'm with. i agree to disagree.

flor, and who's gonna kill them? He will be a murderer too in any case! So he has to be killed too, and so on, and so on.

@flor1212 - There are no degrees of guilt.  The test is 'beyond reasonable doubt'.  Either someone is guilty or they aren't, it's as simple as that.  There's no 'Oh he's 100% guilty because we saw him', it doesn't work like that.Besides, even when in front of their own eyes, different people see different things.

are they not entitleed to death penalty?

drsam, yes, the doctor should also be euthanazised.Einstein once said: Killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."I say: killing under the cloak of anything is nothing but an act of murder.

Me, Im totally against the death penalty - its pagan and has its origins back in the Middle Ages - this case and there are many illustrate perfectly how flawed the practice is.

Im for life incarcaration upon conviction - thats LIFE INCARCARATION not a pc 25 years with parole - LIFE means LIFE until something comes along that over turns the original conviction. To hell with the burden on the tax payer, thats a peurile argument, in fact its no argument at all when consideration is being given to the state taking the life of an innocent person ie legally sanctioned murder.

In this case, I believe a retrial was totally in order - seems to be that was all to much trouble and the need for close out was greater than the desire for justice. he may very well have been guilty, but there was enough doubt here IMHO to justify the authorities having another look.

Yes, brit. A nice jail and hard work and psychological torture, so that he never forgets what he did. Until he comits suicide!

LP what about euthanasia, or the programmed death in death clinics?

is the doctor an executioner who should be executed?

both scenarios!

Then what justice is there for the victim and the affected family ?Should we then jail the criminal till he/she dies in captivity ? 

A "sorcerer" was executed in KSA couple of days back. Amnesty International didn't even raise an eyebrow. Surely he was innocent

Incredible that the KSA and most countries in the Middle East still put people to death!By the way, I am against death penalty. I think the government that executes a murderer murders him, too, and should also be executed according to their laws.

Well said Pilgrim, nice to see somebody talking sense on this thread.  It's incredible that in this day and age, a supposedly civilised country like the USA is still putting people to death.

The whole case reminds me of Dreams of Ada.. Incompetent cops pinning the murder on the first name they heard to ease the pressure on themselves..

Nothing gives us the right to kill another person Brit, certainly not because we don't want some of our tax money paying for their 3 meals a day and 6 by 7 cell. I'm sure your tune would change if it was you who found himself on Death Row for a crime you didn't commit.

i'm with the death sentence. but in some cases, a perpetuity can be more ... punishing to the criminal.

Britexpat there was no physical evidence against him, you want to start executing people immediately based on hearsay?

there will always be mistakes. but that's what is available. if in 10 years the evidence appear, than, calmly they will analyse what went wrong and fix it. bad luck for this one.

I for one do not see the need to pay for the upkeep of such prisoners for the rest of their lives. They have committed a crime and should pay the price.

There must be an end to litigation, they have to limit the number of appeals.However in this case, I strongly believe that an innocent man has been executed.

We do away with the death penalty altogether Brit.  All civilized countries have.

So what you're saying is that we either keep such prisoners on death row indefinitely or do away with the death penalty altogether. 

And when evidence comes to light ten years down the road that clears the person.  What then.  Oops too late, we killed him.

yes. they must restrict the appeals to one or max 2.

Juries are only human LP, they make mistakes.  There have been plenty of cases of convicted people being innocent.

LP - thats a matter of opinion!!

The authorities "may" have got this one wrong - that too is a matter of opinion.

Seems to me that there was far too much doubt surrounding the conviction of this man for it to be a safe conviction - that too, is an opinion.

My concern is that prisoners are kept on death row for extremely long times going through appeals upon appeals. The lawyers make the money, the prisoners are affected phychologically and the tax payer bears the costs.

A 'convicted' guy is not 'innocent'.

Your concern is that he spent too much time on Death Row and not that an innocent man was executed?

which world are you living in? 

And all along i was thinking the US was against the death penalty..

already executed.