Towers of Fear
Not sure what I think of this article....
In Switzerland, towers of fear
A country says no to more than minarets
By Anne Applebaum
Tuesday, December 8, 2009
A few weeks ago, I found myself walking through a Swiss village -- okay, it was really a Geneva suburb -- called Nyon. Still, it looked like a village: There was a castle on the hill, and I could see some Roman ruins. There were a few shops and a nice view of the lake. There was no mosque to be seen. There were no women wearing burqas in the carefully landscaped city park.
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What is true of Nyon is true of most of Switzerland, a nation in which there are very few mosques -- no more than 150 in the whole country, apparently, including tiny "prayer rooms" -- virtually no burqas and hardly any headscarves. The vast majority of Switzerland's 400,000 Muslims are from Turkey and Kosovo, and women from these countries generally do not follow the conservative dress codes commonly seen in places such as Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia.
Nevertheless, people in places just like Nyon recently voted decisively -- 57.5 percent -- in favor of a referendum that will ban the construction of minarets on mosques throughout Switzerland. This decision has been interpreted across Europe, and particularly in the United States, as evidence of Swiss bigotry and rising religious intolerance. But it was not -- or at least not entirely. More important, it was evidence of fear, though not fear of "foreigners" or "outsiders" as such.
There is very little evidence that separatist, politically extreme Islam is growing rapidly in Switzerland. The Swiss, however, read newspapers and watch television. And in recent years separatist and politically extreme forms of Islam have emerged in every European country with a large Muslim population: Britain, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Denmark, Sweden. In all of these countries there have been court cases and scandals concerning forced marriage, female circumcision and honor killings. There have been terrorist incidents, too: Think of the London Tube bombings, the Spanish train bombs, the murder of Dutch film director Theo van Gogh. Remember that the Sept. 11 pilots came from Hamburg.
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There are many explanations for this phenomenon (the best is found in Christopher Caldwell's recent book, "Reflections on the Revolution in Europe"), but, to put it very crudely, they boil down to one thing: Because of mistakes made by Europeans and by the Muslim immigrants who live beside them, the two groups have, over the past several decades, failed to integrate. Two or even three generations after their arrival, some European Muslims still live in separate communities. They often go to separate schools. And a small but vocal minority openly refuses to respect the laws and customs of their adopted countries.
No European government has found a way to deal with this phenomenon. Those that have tried often find themselves running up against their own civil rights and legal traditions. The Danes, determined to limit the number of foreign spouses entering Denmark through arranged marriages, decided that they had no choice but to make it more difficult for all Danes to marry foreigners. The French, realizing that the headscarf had become a symbol of political affiliation in some French schools, found themselves limiting the rights of all students to wear religious clothing, including yarmulkes, to school.
There is, therefore, nothing especially Swiss, or especially isolationist, about the recent referendum result. A similar question, put in a similar way, might well have led to a similar result anywhere in Europe. In fact, fear of Islamist extremism shapes all European politics far more than anyone ever acknowledges. The growth of the "far right" parties in the recent past is almost always connected to fear of Islamist extremism. The opposition to Turkish membership in the European Union -- which would mean that Turks could eventually work freely in any member state -- stems from the same set of fears, though almost no one ever says this.
The referendum on the construction of minarets is no different. No one quite says what the real issue is, but everybody knows: As grotesquely unfair as a referendum to ban minarets may have been to hundreds of thousands of ordinary, well-integrated Muslims, I have no doubt that the Swiss voted in favor primarily because they don't have much Islamic extremism -- and they don't want any.
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Well. I can give you hundreds of other websites that supports Islam and against your way of thinking, but I won't bother to search, copy, and paste for you here. I checked one of the three British websites (.com.uk) and won't bother to check the other two. Naturally, What a minority would say will be taken seriously and announced nationally in a country that has fears of Islam.
About kissing your husband or dressing whatever you want in Qatar. You are in a Muslim country where religion is practiced in a proper way by the majority of population(citizens), so you better consider this, and respect thier traditions and culture.
In UK, Religion is not practiced by the majority, but the minority and UK is a democratic country, and thus religon and any kind of culture or tradition must be respected and given the freedom.
yesterday written by a muslim scholar. He agreed that Minarets are not a part of the prescription for building Mosques. infact the first mosques did not even have them. He argued that banning minarets would be 'perceived' as an attack on the freedom to practice Islam and hence should be avoided.
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
Yes Tarsiers, I did think about what I wrote before I wrote it. I gave several different examples of how I am restricted here in Qatar due to "Religion, culture and traditions" they were not meant to be all lumped into religion. I am not a religious person anyway, so that kind of negates the argument. I am just asking for what I want because the Muslims are asking for things against other countries cultures, religions and traditions. Think about that one.
As for the rest of your lewd and offensive comments, I am a conservative mother of a 4 year old and would never do the things you have described in such explicit detail. If I want to wear a conservative tank top that only shows my arms and shoulders in public then I don't think that is offensive. I would never and have never worn a mini-skirt, but I bet you would be the one to notice and stare. And OMG, going nude on a beach, please have you no modesty, you are Muslim after all or you would not have vehemently pointed out all the wrong things with my post (as you perceived them).
As for the Muslims wanting Sharia Law in Europe, let me google it for you and post the link...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
here's another
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23762591-islamist-group-march-for-full-sharia-law-in-britain.do
and another
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8406796.stm
So maybe after reading my links you will see that you were wrong.
Motherhood...The hardest job you'll ever love! : )
Are you not commenting cause you realize you're being a hypocrit.
You can say whatever opinion you want. I won't comment back to naive comments as I have stated earlier, and so I will just leave it for Qlers who will read your thread.
I am very sure that hundreds if not thousands have already read it or will read it later, and most probably non will comment back as far as they will conculde the truth and leave.
Oh yeah? Someone who does not agree with you is attacking you?
Anyway, after you finish reading this: http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/history/migration/chapter111.html you might wonder who are the Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens. To find out, check this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human
and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Erectus
Once you are done, the conclusion is that you are just an newcomer:) and Alien to Europe:)
I find it ironic Tarsiers that you claim that the Muslims in Europe are complaining about non-Muslims taking over and stealing the resources from their countries, and you support this, BUT you don't support when non-Muslims make the same complaints about Muslims in their own countries. What's good for the goose is good for the gander Tarsiers, you can't claim one group has a right to complain and the other doesn't.
Seems like some people still have conservative minds as tuna cans:)
LOL. You really make me laugh while reading your comment.
My family is known to have lived in my country since 1100s :) so how about the people before 1100s? AHA!! You are still a migrant newcomer:)
By the way, how do you know that they lived in your country since 1100s?:)
My grandfather told me that my family lived in my country since 700.000 BC, but my grandmother told me that my great grandfather was Adam's cousin:)
So Funny you are..
Check this for example: http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/history/migration/chapter111.html
People have been migrating all over the globe since hundreds of thousands of years ago. Since the Life started on Earth and until this moment. So don't tell us newcomers and bullsht
Really? ooooh, I see:)
Tarsiers,
It was not a politician who imposed his decision on the people. The decision was reached by the people through a referendum.
Nobody forces you to go there, personally I would never step a foot in Saudi...
So in this case Switzerland PEOPLE (Don't say PEOPLE. You better speak about yourself. It is one member in the government "whatever they call it" has asked.)
And for you Alexa: What is new comers for you? Aren't you new comer also when you born? Every nation in this world is a mix of different races who immigrated and still immigrating from other countries.
You said: (but how hypocritical is it when I live in an Islamic country and I can not openly practice my religion, KISS MY HUSBAND, WEAR I WANT, have my own arm of my country's court system here to deal with my law issues).
Did you think about what you have said before you typed it? Is kissing your husband in public relate to your religion? Is wearing mini skirt showing everything under it when you sit down in a public hospital or kids school relate to your religion?
Is it mentioned in bible that you must and better to kiss your husband or have sex with him on the grass in Cornich? hmm? or Does the bible say Women MUST and recomended to show themself nude in public beaches??
And about the Sharia Law? I have never heard about Muslims in Europe fighting for implementing Sharia Law in Europe. They only don't won't Europe to force thier women or daughters to remove thier scarf in order to have a job or to have a relationship with her manager's son in order to stay working...etc(This is just an example). Did Any Muslim country except KSA (which is understandable) force Europeans to wear scarf and abaya?
started to ban religion (including Islam), that what we could consider unfair and gross. But Muslims can still practice their belief there freely and no intimidation from the government. Compare it here and tell me your opinion.
And they can freely preach in other countries and boast of spreading fast. Why can't they allow it here? I see some one-sided arguments here. Please have respects!
"I'm back, simple as that"
mikaylasmam, well said. they really need their own dose of medicines.
i wonder what kind of life a man has if he practice literally this an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. i can see a very dark life.
progress
Last week in a Spain's news channel they were showing a new about some initiatives in provinces in Spain where people is requesting Catholic temples to remove their speakers because of the noise when playing the BELLS for calling to MASS....
Two weeks ago there was a big issue in some public schools in Italy due to a european court ordered to remove all Christian symbols and rituals from the school walls due to they did refuse their kids to receive religious indoctrination if they are not Christian...
So in this case Switzerland PEOPLE decided over something they do not want in THEIR country, and the government in the full exercize of democracy is following PEOPLES VOICE... VOX POPULI VOX DEI...
So the point is, why making a big big issue with Switzerland if they are deciding over their own country..they are not banning people for their practices...
This world does not need more conflicts..dont make them up out of nothing
the one thing I haven't seen in this thread that relates to the article is how the Muslims want to change the laws of the 'new homes in new countries' they inhabit. Like Sharia Law in Britain to deal with their traditions and crimes, but how hypocritical is it when I live in an Islamic country and I can not openly practice my religion, kiss my husband, wear what I want, have my own arm of my country's court system here to deal with my law issues. You can't have it both ways, this is why there are problems where the Islamic population has migrated to. They expect to be catered to because Islam is their way of life but if we do not conform to their rules in their home country we get jailed and deported never to come back again. I think they need to take a dose of their own medicine.
Motherhood...The hardest job you'll ever love! : )
why everytime islam is mentioned someone has to be offensive and others have to pray for his sanity??:)
to Alexa: response to the "house", i really don't think anyone in europe is trying to fight the leaders for not granting them their rights, i mean now, we are here arguing about this issue, and i think in switzerland they've already forgotten all about it and life has moved on,
anyway, all terrorist attacks in europe had nothing to do with the regimes, all were about decisions made for invading arab and muslim countries, same as in 9/11, i don't think whoever did it wanted bush to convert to islam :)
Yalla!
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
:)
Bye
that is offensive.
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
That was sarcasm??? Finally one of your comments made me smile..
Anyway, maybe tomorrow or next time, because I have to go now.
have a nice day and sorry for the sarcastic comment I had about Hindu religion. As I have said, it came as a respond back. My appolgy for the Hindu community
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
Really? from bible? Maybe? Could be true because Muslims believe in both Christianity and Judism. All the three religion share many things, so I can believe you here that the saying I mentioned exist in bible. No problems. About evolution, that is another story. Evolute yourself:) lol
Alexa I am not sure where you are coming from ......... comparing human rights to sharing a house... come on use grey cells they have a purpose you know.
If swiss dont want minaret it is their country to decide and the swiss muslim to see that their rights are not infringed upon by the majority.
Get real, All European what ever their religon or color make up beatuiful rainbow it is now :) . Please dont say WE only nationalist bigots could say such a thing and thakfully thay are not in majority in Europe atleast not in UK .
I actually can't teach blind people. I am not a teacher here. I will never listen to something that is against my beliefs or an opinion that I disagree with and let it pass. I won't let people to get missleaded by blind people. As simple as that. Who are you for me to teach you what is wrong or right? Do I also care? lol. I am just telling my opinion to everyone who might read the thread even if he/she did not comment on it
Let him be guys.. It's not his fault that he is stupid..
...god cure you of all your illnesses.Ma'asalaama.
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
so that my wife sleeps with bulls. Go pray for your God. This will make you feel better.
..."Obviosuly, you are the one who is not tolerant by not accepting the fact that you might have wrong information about something, or that others have thier own different opinions"
Looks like your women definately sleeps with a bull and bull's friends.
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
with more sarcastic respond and if someone is being rude, I reply in worse way. We have a verse in Islam which means " Eye to Eye, tooth to tooth, and the one who starts the problem derserves the consequences". I am just applying this on real.
You are telling I am not tolerant. May I know what leads you to this opionion about me?
Isn't because I dont let what other say pass without correcting it or at least telling my opinion which is different from some others?
For your information, I am supposed to be a Muslim, but not following the basics of Islam and I wonder if I am still considered as a Muslim or not. I do have Christian and jew friends in Europe. We are still in touch and they keep calling me from time to time.
We respect and accept each others' religion and believe in that there should be a freedom everywhere. Now, a government decision does not mean that all the people agree on it. Only blind people who follow thier leader as how sheaps follow thier pastor. Tolerant and broad-minded people search and ask for knowledge and more facts from both parts before judging.
Obviosuly, you are the one who is not tolerant by not accepting the fact that you might have wrong information about something, or that others have thier own different opinions.
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
mmyke ... truth is often unplatable so easiest way is to say that this not same as this but actually religious bigotory is the same whatever name it may have -------inquisations or Talibaan.
As for reigning in my extremist brother well we dont have this problem here and I dont have any influence on nationals of another country and I dont want to interfere in what is their internal matter .If how ever Europeans cannot take care of themselves and require our help they have to only ask becuase nothing is given without asking.
I thought I was quite clear in first response I quote"
I agree with brit expat that Euorpean minorities should show initiative in routing these miscreants but that can only happen with govt and citizens partner ship only . Initiatives to bring about change from both sides is required".
tarsiers good for you. I never met such a Hindu even after living in India for 25 years. You are lucky.
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
who told me that all Cows are considered to be a God for them and that bulls sleep with thier women. He is a Hindu I am sure! He dress like Hindos and I saw pictures of cows in his house. He has a cow outside in his garden also. Brown and white. Very cute:)
I am not preaching here. I am clearing things to you and some others who in my opinion have wrong thoughts about Islam and are missleading others who read this thread andmight cross through thier comments.
I won't listen to someone telling something wrong about me or my religion and passing it as if all is true. I have to tell my opinion, belief, or/and thoughts.
tarsiers I am my own God.. And that person is a Muslim.
Most probably he is not a Muslim just like me. Being a Muslim is not what is written in your birth certificate or any form or ID. As Islam says, If you don't follow the guidlines which I consider a humanitarian guidlines more than religious guidlines,and if you live as an animal in a forest. If you don't stick to what God has instructed humans, then you are not a Muslim.
Anyway, Is it true that your God is a Cow?:)
there is no God,,,I guess that is the start of the divide...
The west is going to the Moon and Mars, not stuck in the 2nd century believing in the supernatural...
thats why, ultimately, this discourse is all nonsense.
I remember a Muslim mentioning here once that Hinduism is not a religion, it's just a way of life so he obviously doesn't believe Islam is a way of life and considering how devout a Muslim he proclaims himself to be, I don't think Muslims consider Islam to be a way of life.
For the majority of European people,religion is more as a tradition than a way of living. For example, Christmas for them now means Christmas tree, grilled turkey, candies on the tree, gifts, and its the only one time or second time when the family will gather. Same thing with the other occasions.
But for Muslims, Islam is a way of life. A guide from God. A real muslim life is Islam.
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
what is the difference exactly?
Anything that touch Islam is touching Muslims too
respond back and we don't want any non muslim creature in our beloved countries. So i recommend you to leave and safe your degnity and leave before it happens.
One more thing that I and all Muslims strongly believe in is that Islam will spread more rapidly after thier action. Its some politician who has fears of Islam to enter thier houses and not the majority of Swiss people.
Al Hamdu lillah
I did not check that one in Qatar but i will ask my friends or visit there once, but i know that in lebanon, syria, Palestine, Egypt and other countries, yes Churches have bells and look as any Church anywhere else.
Its not a matter of the minaret itself more than the principle itself and the meaning of banning minarets while it was existing.
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
Who is the original owner of US house for example?:)
Same thing goes with Europe, Asia, Africa and other contenants.
The original owner is God and Adam is the first inhabitant. If we want to refer to who is original and who was first, then wars will never stop and new Hitler must come back as well as the Othoman Sultans...etc.
the IRA and the Inquisition were completely different in character,,,,
quite unlike whats going on here.
For the Muslims taking part in this debate herewhy is it that you do not do anything to reign in your extremist brothers?
Are you, by being inactive (or are you inactive) allowing these behaviours to go unchecked??
Or do you feel that what the extremists are doing is ok??
Brit,
You are right. They were fighting for the right thing with the wrong argument!
I guess it was a marketing/propaganda strategy to win and it sure worked!
You are correct. I love the architecture of old churches and cathedrals. Love the cathedral in Cologne (Koln).
Now if they'd said that - we don't want minarets because they don't enhance / compliment the existing architecture of the country - then i would understand.
But to ban minarets by equating them to something extreme or evil is wrong in a free society.
Alexa, they claim to be fair and democratic, how do you explain rejection made by all relegious leaders there? democracy is about majority ruling fairly minorities, granting them all their rights, not about majority imposing their rules, keeping in mind that voters were mislead by the bigots who invested in islamophobia to achieve their targets.
finally, someone with passport is considered a resident of the house and his rights must be secured by the rulers, not to mention third generation muslims born and grew in the same house.
Yalla!
Europe has its traditions and cultural heritage and it strives to protect them. Generally speaking, each region in Europe (not restricted to an independent country) has its own architectural traits and the local legislation is strict in preserving and maintaining its character. That is why European’s cities are so beautiful unlike the anarchy and horrendous architectural fruit salad of some places in Asia!
For that reason, minarets are beautiful when seen in the right context, in Islamic societies / cities!
In Europe, expect to see amazing Cathedrals!
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
olive, you said it almost all right, i just disagree that extremists in europe want to impose shariah laws, i'll stick to "what imams say and thei followers" point, it's much accurate.
extremist in europe work according to their payers agenda, always think of funding, where the money come from, the instructions are given, and i believe no terrorist act in europe was aiming imposing islamic law on goverments,right?
Swiss government did a big mistake by accepting to execute the voting against minarates in principle, and many of them politics admitted this, the voting was opposed by ALL religious sects in swiss, even the jews.
They will harvest the result soon or later, but we have to remember always, Swiss ignited extremism in their own peaceful land.
Yalla!
to a dumb naive person like you, or else I will degrade my level.
let me know when you leave our country, so that i can inform the extremists and terrorist in your Europe that thier homelands are clean from parasites and they are welcome back to thier beloved desert.
I recommend you to do it as soon as you can before they blow up your parents while celebrating Christmas.
Who is a crackpot? somone who was discussing peacfully with others what he believes in, or someone who creates a thread expecting all to be in his side, and if someone disagree with him, he will get mad and keep insisting on his beliefs?
I bet on that many will read this thread and leave it because they will find from your comments that you are a pathatic crackpot who is not worth it to waste thier time and discuss such things with you in your copy-paste thread.
Have a nice day
mmyke...
"Isn't one of the basic tenants of Islam is to go out there and convert the unbelievers, by force if necessary?"
Arnt you confusing catholicism with Islam . Hmmmm have you heard of inquisations ????.Why go so far in history the breakup of Bosinia and resultant genocide of muslims does it ring a bell ?
"who are seen as extremely demanding and uncooperative,,," Yes by nationalists and religious bigots who try to be objective .
The problems are mostly economic ,social and political which need to be dealt with sensitivity.
Muslims living in Europe are Europeans If Europe has problems with its minorities then they have to deal with it with sensitivity and fortitute in Europe not here in Doha because we have problems enough of our own of extremely demanding and insensitive resident minorities who are not even the citizens of the country - (Guest workers)......
Rest of the world doesnot protray it self as heaven of socialism and human rights as key ingredient of their makeup so rest of world has a right to point out that this in not correct when this happens.
I agree with brit expat that Euorpean minorities should show initiative in routing these miscreants but that can only happen with govt and citizens partner ship only . Initiatives to bring about change from both sides is required.
Hell ppl cant get along on this site....and we expect educated, grown ups to live in peace. ha ha ha
The Force is not strong with us.
ROLFING! Man I love the crackpots on this site sometimes. :)
LOL. Yes, better to go talk to your extremist buddies. Because they aren't stupid. :P
Simple question, What the jews are doing in EU. Aren't they sucking your money while others live in poverty in thier own country?
I think i better don't waste explaining to someone who is naive or pretending to be stupid.
for them. They love thier desert. Just dont iterupt thier own business and steal thier natural sources.
So yes Olive, I can tell them. I actually won't need to tell them that if you and others will leave Muslim countries and thier Petrol. As soon as you do that, they will get back to thier homelands happily and leave Your Europe
Nobodies stealing their natural resources, it's being sold to us by them, in exchange for the money that buys them their Lamborghini's and caviar.
Some are thier to study and they go back home again. Some are there because they can not go back home(not allowed) as in immigrants case. Some were born there as Muslims or EU citizens who converted to Islam and thus that European country where they born is thier homeland, but they still disagree and hate what thier government is doing to thier fellow muslim brothers in thier countries.
So, dont tell me that why dont they go back. Normally, anyone who does not like the place where he is will go back to the place where he likes.
You don't like what extermists are doing and thier beliefs, but you are here sitting in thier country and surrounded by them. Why don't you go back to your country?hm?
The can you tell them to leave Europe and go live in the desert somewhere like good little wackjobs.
Don't make me laugh. They are in Europe same as you here in Qatar. They have thier own reason or born there or converted to Islam.
I am the one who is a Muslim and have been in Europe for 7 years. I know what they want and who they are. I mean the Religious people. The ones you call extermists, not the terrorists. I have not met any terrorist so far.
and they want their homelands,,well, why don't they go back to those terrible places and help out their own people...its because they have no desire to be nice people.
2-3 years ago the British Muslim Society explicitly stated that although there were difficulties, they officially like dliving in Britain better than their home countries....
Pretty sure it's Europe they want to impose it in as that's where they are living.
in Europe.
And you think that blowing things up is the way to get that? And why all the rallies and marches to impose Shariah law?
What does extremism have to do with the minarets? Why is it ISLAMIC extremism but not Christian extremism (KKK, IRA, half of the US politicians who vote a certain way….because god did/didn’t want XYZ). You can recite a verse of the Quran and kill a man…and they will investigate you, your mosque, family etc…you can be the Columbine school shooter, the OK city bomber, the V-tech shooter...and they will say you were off you pills.
There are different kinds of extremisms. You have your Taliban, IRA, KKK style you have your, ELECTED style "your not with us, then your against us"...but they do the same or more harm but they do it in a nice suit so we are ok with it.
Then you have normal people who have extreme views for example racists who don’t meet you but also don’t want to kill you, people who vote in a extreme way (as in this case) these kinds of people could be your neighbor, person you work with.
Which is worst? Calculate how many people were killed by Taliban, KKK,IRA and compare it with how many innocent people were killed by WAR…(but hey they are considered collateral damaged right)
group. What is the name of it? What did they want? Religion to be implemented or Ireland?
want Revenge. They also want the natural sources of thier homelands to be for them and not for others. They want Respect from others in order to respect them. they want freedom of thier holy lands. This is what they want.
So what do you believe they want Tarsiers?
the world to be Muslim and Shariah law enforced? May I know from where do you get these information? Who will understand them more? you or a muslim like them? You can choose to believe what you hear about them from either Media, or from a Muslim like me.
I am telling you again, they don't want anything other than practising thier religion and beliefs no matter where they are. Thats all.
The terrorists are small group of people who were either missleaded by others,or non-believers who were recruited by Terrorist Organizations abroad as Al Qaida, and not extremists
but they won't because that takes individualism, and Islam finds individualsim abhorrent,,,,
I didn't say all the Muslims in Europe felt that way, but that's what the extremists want. They want everyone in the world to be Muslim and Shariah law enforced.
You echoed my feelings. The "silent majority" have to stand up and become vocal. They need to work with the governments to "isolate" these extremists and bring them to task.
told you? Because I have been in Europe as well and I know some of the so-called extremists. They might recommend shariah law on thier own countries back home, but not in Europe.
For your infromation, most of the Muslims living in Europe are borad-minded, understanding and kind people. They just want to practice and follow thier own religion.
but the Jews are not seen as ones who are planning to blow you up...
and the Muslims are, aren't they??
Even if the extremists are few in number, there have been such a cross-section of them caught trying to blow up people, or actually doing so, that there is little or no trust.
Now, in the west, there are young muslims and converts planning this all the time.
One thing, and I have mentioned this before, is that the 'nice' Muslims dont seem to try to knock these guys down,,,no marches, no speeches on the street corners,,,just an official rebuttal now and again,,,,
People have the opinion that there is no push-back because the violence embedded in the religion will go after the moderate,,look at Simon Rushdie for example,,,,
You will recall that the current Pope stated a couple of years ago that Islam was a violent religion, and then somewhere in Africa muslims took offence to it and killed a Catholic nun or 2 to show their discontent...
That didn't help any moderate perception...
I guess there is sno easy answer but Muslims are certainly not providing any answers itseems to me,,,and I wish they would,,,
to sit and negotiate with the so-called extremists no matter if they were Muslims or what. Study from correct sources about thier religion, culture, principles, minds and discuss with them what they need and what they are expected to follow and respect.
This is the only way to avoid terrorist actions and not by attacking them or banning thier religion. As others said banning minarets or even mosques won't erase extemism, but will make it much worse.
Governments must know that many of those extremists are citizens and not only immigrants or passport holders.
They're pretty vocal about what the want Tarsiers, they want Shariah law implemented in Europe.
It doesn't matter what Islam does or does not support, what matters is what the Imam's are teaching and what followers believe.
I don't believe that Islam supports enforced conversion.
I would agree with the perception of not integrating or being demanding. However, I lived near Golders Green in London which is home to many orthodox Jews. They also don't integrate and demanding. Yet, we don't complain about them.
We definitely need to address the extremist elements and governments and the Muslims have to work together.
Ahmadiya/Qadyani will get it done in Swiss. i think some how yes. they have a strong hold in Sweden and Norway Denmark.
LOL, you kid Da, but you're probably right. Banning minarets is just going to piss off the extremists more and put a big target on your head. I don't understand why the West continues to try and combat extremism and terrorism by doing things that will only create more extremism and terrorism.
but those are nationalistic groups,,aside from the IRA which came from the catholic side of the tracks....this is the whole islamic religion that is being regarded as such....
Isn't one of the basic tenants of Islam is to go out there and convert the unbelievers, by force if necessary?
The western populations have learned about this, and when combined withthe huge influx of Muslims into Europe, and who refuse to integrate, and who are seen as extremely demanding and uncooperative,,,well, this is what happens as a result...
I am just trying to be objective,,,
Al Qaeda will do Switzerland feasibility study now
I agree. Legislation needs to be passed to ensure that "extremists" can be dealt with in the proper manner.
I agree Brit, but does that still mean governments should sit and do nothing to try and combat it? The Brit's passed quite a few controversial laws to try and stop the IRA, and the States did to try and stop the KKK.
Terrorists come and go. In the overall scheme of things, Islamic terrorism is quite new. Remember how long the IRA lasted and how long ETA has been around. The Red Brigade came and went as will Islamic Terrorism in due course.
has a very huge political agenda embedded in its religion,,,,this is what the west hates,,,and won't allow frankly.
We have already had this before and it won't succeed anymore....
I think the Switzerland banning will be repeated in a lot of places. ,,and the Swiss are the peaceful ones.
First off I don't see how banning minarets will stop extremism, I would assume that it would create more? Secondly though I do think, that while extremism exists everywhere, Islamic extremism is proving to be a bit more worrisome then others. As she lists above, there's been quite a few terrorism incidences in Europe, so something does need to be done.
do not want politics to be intertwined with religion,,,which is much of what Islam is....
isn't it??
You are both right.
One of the "in between the lines" messages I get from this votation is a "Hard" message to the those leading the countries involved in this that there is a need for higher/tougher actions against this "minorities" that generate so much pain and losses economically & phisically (not to mention the loss of lifes and infrastructure).
It is not a matter of banning such or such religion but the fact that the people is looking/asking for the authorities to have a "long reach arm" to aprehend and set to trial those who have altered, or tempted to alter the normal course of the living in their countries (whoever they are, and I mean ethnicity, religion, skin color, origins)
Regards!!
Just playing the Devil's advocate since I agree with you, but as you say extremism exists, but does that mean we should just let it exist? Shouldn't countries try to combat it?
Islamic extremism exists, but as a very small minority. Any free society has extremist elements within it. From KKK to Bader Meinhoff to ETA to the IRA. The free society learns to accept their existence whilst working to ensure that they do not cause harm to the majority.
The Swiss action in my opinion is totally bigoted and smacks of two facedness.