Rumors and truths

I like the evolutionist's take on the fish where they add a pair of legs to it.

on their cars they turn it into a infinity sign.

On London buses they wrote.... (until it got withdrawn)

Science flies you to the moon.

Religion flies you into buildings.

Now that actually might make a good thread..... actually no, I'm only joking. It will probably be as long as the pig thread....

"Desinit in piscem mulier formosa superne"

Ichtus, fichtus, vae victus, vade retro.........too much Latin.....

Going over the head like a tangent.

I think I will have to fix a few antennaes.

Sorry for the double post!

Alexa,

The fish = Ichtus, symbol of Christianity. Not really belonging to one particular group.

I will spare myself type-finger-aches, so will quote the explanation

The fish was an early symbol of Christian faith that endures today on bumper stickers and businesses as a sign of Christian faith.

The fish is thought to have been chosen by the early Christians for several reasons:

* the Greek word for fish (ICHTUS), works nicely as an acrostic for "Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior"

* the fish would not be an obvious Christian symbol to persecutors

* Jesus' ministry is associated with fish: he chose several fishermen to be his disciples and declared he would make them "fishers of men."

It is said that during the persecution of the early church, a Christian meeting someone new would draw a single arc in the sand. If the other person was a Christian, he or she would complete the drawing of a fish with a second arc. If the second person was not a Christian, the ambiguity of the half-symbol would not reveal the first person as a Christian.

The second fish symbol above is the ICHTHUS fish, with the Greek word for fish written out to emphasize the symbolic acrostic described above.

Although the word looks like IXOYE, the letters are from the Greek alphabet, so the "I" is actually an iota, the "X" is actually a chi, the "O" is actually a theta, the "Y" is an upsilon, and the "E" or "C" at the end is a sigma. Taking the first sound from each of these Greek letter names, we get the transliteration into our alphabet of ICHTHUS.

Today, when Christians (in the West) do not need to worry about persecution, the Christian fish symbol often has "Jesus" written inside or includes a cross symbol. And of course, there have been many spoofs and variations of the popular Christian symbol, such as the famous "Darwin fish" (with legs).

The fish is also a symbol of baptism, since a fish is at home in the water.

Related Bible Verse

As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. "Come, follow men," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." At once they left their nets and followed him. (Mark 1:16-18)

I suspect that PM has hit the nail on the head.

Alexa, most the fish-stickered cars are driven by Filipinos.Most would probably be catholic.

does not always come freely...

and many tends to be forgetful :(

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God does not believe in Athiests.

hotboss... no comment...

Alexa,

The fish = Ichtus, symbol of Christianity. Not really belonging to one particular group.

I will spare myself type-finger-aches, so will quote the explanation

The fish was an early symbol of Christian faith that endures today on bumper stickers and businesses as a sign of Christian faith.

The fish is thought to have been chosen by the early Christians for several reasons:

* the Greek word for fish (ICHTUS), works nicely as an acrostic for "Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior"

* the fish would not be an obvious Christian symbol to persecutors

* Jesus' ministry is associated with fish: he chose several fishermen to be his disciples and declared he would make them "fishers of men."

It is said that during the persecution of the early church, a Christian meeting someone new would draw a single arc in the sand. If the other person was a Christian, he or she would complete the drawing of a fish with a second arc. If the second person was not a Christian, the ambiguity of the half-symbol would not reveal the first person as a Christian.

The second fish symbol above is the ICHTHUS fish, with the Greek word for fish written out to emphasize the symbolic acrostic described above.

Although the word looks like IXOYE, the letters are from the Greek alphabet, so the "I" is actually an iota, the "X" is actually a chi, the "O" is actually a theta, the "Y" is an upsilon, and the "E" or "C" at the end is a sigma. Taking the first sound from each of these Greek letter names, we get the transliteration into our alphabet of ICHTHUS.

Today, when Christians (in the West) do not need to worry about persecution, the Christian fish symbol often has "Jesus" written inside or includes a cross symbol. And of course, there have been many spoofs and variations of the popular Christian symbol, such as the famous "Darwin fish" (with legs).

The fish is also a symbol of baptism, since a fish is at home in the water.

Related Bible Verse

As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. "Come, follow men," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." At once they left their nets and followed him. (Mark 1:16-18)

Would be nice to see a copy of these 'walking papers'. Guess none of those 150 are QLers. Too much 'Christian bashing' for them probably.

First was this was just a warning to those in the church that they should be careful of what they do here, because they are being watched by the authorities.

Second was what was stated earlier: that more conservative, hard line factions in the government gave the orders to evict the Bible bangers (apparently more than 150 people got their walking papers), and that when more moderate heads in the government became aware of what had happened, they jumped in and rescinded all deportation orders.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Further more...

I can understand that Qatar would not want a sect on their hands that evangelizes randomly, trying to convert many.

Remember, also religious groups are not without danger. History has given us many examples.

I guess this 'special church' preacher knew he was playing with fire, thus likely to walk into a 'burning bush'.

When i attended a special church service from a Christian church here, the invited preacher was a Western and he mentioned about their situation, that they will be going to be deported for their Church activities. They even asked for small financial support from the church.

Dont know the full details, but i guess this is a discreet truth.

Ok Anne... good news.

I assume you can also point out the exact reason for the deportation letter?

Spoke to some happy people today, people who had received actual notices of deportation - not rumors, not heresay - but very real notices. For them, hopefully, all's well that end's well. Let's remember, though, that it has ended otherwise for good people and while the govt. of this country appears to have many good intentions, as a signatory to the UN Charter, it pledges itself to basic human rights including the right to freedom of religion. (Obviously, within confines of respect for this society.) Apparently some in the government took this seriously today, unlike other citizens who were quick to jump in and blame the victims, facts unknown. That is how injustice prevails.

Oi..

Those whom compare between Europe VS Mosque and ME (Qatar) VS Church...

Please do not forget that Mosques in Europe are possible because of democracy and our social structures.

In Qatar, the Emir has donated one church (sarcasm on: conveniently located in the middle of nowhere) and there is another.... (as far as I am aware) People should be greatful for this.

BUT, we are NOT in a democracy where anyone can practice his/her faith freely or has a right to push for more.

People want more churches here? Fine, play it through politics, most likely they should assemble/unite embassies to do the job... do not be a hero it will bite you in the ass.

Our lives are good we have plenty freedom but are still living under Sharia and do not get our ways by conventional politics/protesting/striking or such.

Do not forget this.

i stand corrected :)

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

People come and then build places of worship..

I agree with you though that a lot has been made of little .

Have to agree that this is just sensationalized.

Yes, there are a few churces in Qatar and thousands of mosques across Europe and North America. Who builds the mosques? Muslims build them. Who builds churces? Christians. Build it and the people will come.

Justmee, your posts contained the phrases "heresay" amd "rumor", which are probably the most accurate.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

After 24 families received notice by Thursday and many others worried all weekend whether they were "on the list," all orders were rescinded this morning. That happened - the why is merely heresay, but rumor has it this was a power play aimed at the Emir due to unhappiness over his policies - which as some correctly pointed out, have allowed two Christian churches to be built so far - and who put a quick stop to it once informed. (Not all Christians would worship at those two facilities, BTW, do all Muslims subscribe to the same brand of Islam?)

Lesson learned? Others, singly, have already unfortunately had this happen (likely unknown to the true government of the country). The attempt at a large group, many with influential positions across society, was halted. As for those who were quick to judge the victims as guilty just because they were chosen, as Eli Wiesel would say, let us hope your neighbors are kinder and stand up and yell should something similar ever happen to you.

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/29103

was diagnosed with cancer.

And he was an Al Thani.

Anybody else heard anything new/different/confirmed?

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Now I am starting to see the evolution of Jihad.

PC, not much. Their website requires membership. It looks like a secret society.

why not google ' "grace fellowship" qatar', then follow up on the links. Draw your own conclusions.

Popcorngirl, it's 'atheists'.

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"There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out". - Richard Dawkins

I suppose the simple way oif looking at is that the guy was healed when he may have felt that there was no hope.

So , he converted to the faith that he felt gave him life..

Even though it is only praying for the good health/heart/soul of somebody you care about; is something I don't think would be appreciated over here as much there is religious tolerance here.

____________________________________________________

God does not believe in Athiests.

I know PM, but I'm not sure the local authorities would see it that way. I think that the fact that the man converted would be all that mattered to them, regardless of what the actual intention of the prayers was.

proselytizing.

Sorry, just talking to myself. Kind of nitpicky about spelling and that word was driving me nuts.

Carry on...

it happened fairly recently.

I'd also heard that the government had requested from this same congregation a list of all its members -- which was supplied. Unsure whether this happened before or after the incident in question.

I also heard of some religious folks who got into trouble for distributing Bibles up in some worker camps in the Industrial Area awhile back (maybe 1-2 months ago). I don't think it's related to this current deportation, but I could be wrong on that count.

PM -- I know, I just try not to think about all that stuff too much...it'd turn me into Mel Gibson in Conspiracy Theory. LOL!

To be fair, a number of the hyper-religious Christian groups here DO consider it their duty to spread the faith...and as I said, if that was what happened here, prosletyzing, then I have no problem with Qatar giving them the boot. But as with every other issue here, it's the lack of information made public, the lack of transparency on the issue that I find frustrating, and that creates the rumor mill, and this sense of doubt that the authorities are treating people fairly.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Proseletyzing means trying to convert someone. So if they "laid hands" on this guy and then he converted.... wouldn't that be considered proseletyzing?

Praying for someone is prosletyzing in your book?

I guess we do have different books then.

For me, praying for someone is simply something that is done out of concern for another individual and his/her situation. It doesn't mean you're trying to convert them. You're simply putting your efforts and good will and karmic energy towards their cause, so to speak.

At least that's how I see it. Though I do not consider myself religious, it's not uncommon for me to tell friends who are mourning a loss that they are in my prayers, and they are. I keep them present in my thoughts and say an extra few words to my God on their behalf.

Does this mean I am trying to convert them to my way of thinking? I don't think so...

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

ummjake, it does constitute prosletyzing in my book.

We have different books.

ummjake, when did this incident supposedly take place? I assume it was recently, since we're suddenly hearing of several families being deported.

But I know a family who was very involved in Grace, and they were deported 2 years ago. They were told by the authorities "You haven't done anything wrong, but you have to leave."

So this stuff has been going on quietly for some time now.

wait and see..

What I have heard so far (and since the authorities are not making any of this public, everyone will of course cry rumor...but here goes):

A bunch of congregants who belonged to an evangelical church here called Grace Fellowship have been deported. MANY families -- including people who worked for big oil companies and US universities -- have been affected.

Story has it that some members of the church were praying for a sick Qatari (and yes, they do the "laying on of hands" bit), who then recovered and converted to Christianity.

People have been actively discouraged from speaking about this incident publicly. My source said that her HR person told people not to even discuss the matter on the telephone (for fear of what? CID listening in and arresting/deporting some more folks?).

If they were prosletyzing, which is against the law here, then fair enough. But if they're not going to make everything public and allow people to know about what's happening, then there are going to be rumors and innuendo.

Who knows? Maybe the guy converted of his own free will upon his recovery...just because a bunch of Christians pray for you doesn't constitute prosletyzing in my book. But then again -- we won't really know what happened until people speak out about it.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

so after "church" services this weekend- any facts out and about? will any of my kids' friends be leaving school early this week??

The bottom line is that there will always be a line of expats of all nationalities and religions willing to come here.

Kicking out a few or many for unspecified reasons will not stop the flow.

Dweller said truthfulvisitor ...

Methinks you will have a long learning curve in Qatar."

Lol! I've only been here a few months and I've learned a lot. Many of the things I speak of is from personal experience and observations ... and QL pals :0)

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

annc said any reports? ...

will this be in any papers or news reports?

Qatar should be careful, though- if expatriates see this, and refuse to come here, some companies could have difficulty recruiting workers (high-end, oil company experts)to bring their families here!"

- Is this a threat to Qatar? Lol! Come on, there is NO difficulty recruiting workers here in Qatar. The competition to work in Qatar is so much more stiffer since Dubai hit the skids. Who are you kidding? Nobody is fooled by your statement.

Sorry, but Qatar's stand would be generally that you can take it or leave it - they won't tell that directly but will simply keep a dignified silence.

/NB: I doubt it would be reported in the newspapers - the control which you can perceive as being attacks - unfair and hiding facts and curtailing freedoms, human rights abuses, etc. can also be a protection. Don't think that they are only protecting themselves only but they are also protecting you. There is always a bigger picture to the scheme of things, if you will. Only if you have ALL the information can you be the Judge. Only God has ALL the information. The rest of humankind is flawed so we live and let live. There are freedoms granted but with certain conditions, for the safety of the general population - locals and expatriates.

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

Again?? Sigh! We've hashed and re-hashed this one before. There was a thread somewhere where we had some good replies including one by a diplomat, etc.

Can you guys stop rumour-mongering??

Stacey London said "Baldrick and TallG - it is not only those who have been proselytising. Some are simply those who attend services of various denominations."

- Maybe, but attend services where? In cell groups? While it is pragmatic (members no transport, etc) - but can you see the danger? Because whatever arguments you use, the same arguments can be used by the quarters which pose a danger to (darn it, I sound like a beauty pageant hopeful..) world peace. :P

The Emir has kindly allowed designated places so keep to it. Agree with B2D and TallG. That is fair.

"Have a little compassion for people who are having their lives, and those of their families and children, uprooted without having any idea that this was coming."

- We certainly do but there's definitely more to this than meets the eye. You don't have the full information. There must have been an action for which there is this reaction - IF the actions you speak of, in the first place, is true.

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

I just hope I didn't create hysteria

“A lot of the people who keep a gun at home for safety are the same ones who refuse to wear a seat belt”

ok, that was hysterical- I burst out laughing out loud! thanks for the smile in the midst of it all.

Congregation in houses or any unauthorized places are banned, may be this could be the reason

[img_assist|nid=50852|title=hmm|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]

on Google Earth the big bullseye on the roof of the church?

“A lot of the people who keep a gun at home for safety are the same ones who refuse to wear a seat belt”

I agree - I guess we should wait and see- and then comment.

good point

but how we will know when the facts are out there?

Dream is correct...if you read the Peninsula you will also see that they are refusing and removing expats from Independent schools to make room for the locals. This is not unusual and should not be unexpected. I have not heard of any expats being invited to stay forever. We are here to fill a gap in the workforce that the Qataris hope to fill with their own citizens just as the Saudis started doing back in 2000. It sounds like the Gravy Train has reached the station.

Another "AFOAF"

“A lot of the people who keep a gun at home for safety are the same ones who refuse to wear a seat belt”

Everything on this thread is rumour, so none of us have any real idea why these people have been deported. So it's a bit early to be calling double standards. If people were being deported simply for practising a religion other than Islam then the place would be pretty empty!

exactly- the emir actually donated the land, so why the problem now? that is what is confounding- the double message!!

---------------------------

Most people are ignorant of the local rules because they are not posted anywhere or if they are, they change from day to day!

It is very difficult for people to a "real feel" of what is really happening in Qatar.

These "changes" don't get written up in the local paper, so "word of mouth" and QL are sources that "ignorant" people have to rely on.

Need facts

The Emir donated a place free of cost to build our Church.

[img_assist|nid=50852|title=hmm|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]

Each to their own I guess, regarding being scared of being deported for what you say on QL. If you're happy to overly censure yourself like the press do then that's cool.

Regarding what the Emir said - Qatar is open and welcoming to other religions. That's why you're allowed to practise them here and have been allowed to build places of worship.

knowing the rules matters-

however- check out the post a bit above- the emir himself was praising the openness and eagerness of qatar to be open and welcoming of other religions! a double message, seems to me

if you are ignorant of the local rules, then there is nothing much that can be done. When you are in a foreign country, make sure you know the rules before hand. That saves you a lot of time.

will I be more specific- did you not read the post???

Methinks you will have a long learning curve in Qatar.

but have you not heard of folks being confronted after posting comments about a certain royal family? I have! Also-

Be more specific how were you confronted

[img_assist|nid=50852|title=hmm|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]

"It;s not paranoia if they're really after you!"- ha ha ha

not me , personally- but have you not heard of folks being confronted after posting comments about a certain royal family? I have! Also- may of these families, were tracked through email and phone calls. don't think for aminute that your calls and internet can't be looked at.

That's called paranoia. If that sort of thing happened then there'd be no-one left on QL!

that truly- I posted, then was scared I'd be traced by my email, and deported.

and that has happened. free speech is not happening here.

I just erased my comment, for fear of getting tossed out of the country. I"ll repost from home (country) in July

If there's any truth behind these rumours, then I don't think it has anything to do with Qatarisation. Qatarisation has nothing to do with religion.

I guess the above incidents is also a part of this process as well .... Its only that since the involved people are from a different religion than Muslims, that is making people jump to conclusion.

'Qatarization' is a well known and well reported process that is currently ongoing in Qatar.

I dont think its only related to the Christians... Coz I have seen in our company that there had been 2 or 3 cases where people have been given a month's notice to leave... All these people are Muslims. And not that they are incompetent to their job... When I checked on it I found the possible answer to this is "Qatarization". All these people who were asked to live were replaced by local Qatari people... This fact was also confirmed by some of the local people here, who are working with this company for quite long....

Why should Qatar follow the lead of countries across Europe and North America? Those countries choose to allow proselytising, Qatar chooses not to allow it.

Islam is an integral part of life in Qatar, so I fully understand and support why they don't wont people coming here trying to convert Muslims to other religions. And I applaud Qatar for allowing other religions to practise here, and allowing them to build places of worship.

The single most annoying thing about QL is people constantly comparing Qatar to other countries. Just cos other countries do something doesn't mean Qatar has to.

again the rumors fly..although they usually start with a taxi driver lol....it doesn't appear anyone really knows why and I wonder how many people that were "thrown" out would tell the real reason. Two months notice seems pretty reasonable to me. Lay offs happen and for many reasons. truthfulvisitor..yes it is fair enough whether you like it or not or agree with it doesn't matter. You are a guest here and what does anything mentioned have to do with mosques being built in the US? If the US had the same huevos as the Qataris maybe it wouldn't be the mess it is because of the bleeding heart liberals.

and it's to do with being part of religious group.

Tallg said "I don't think the authorities here take to kindly to people who are actively proselytising (which is fair enough)."

Which is fair enough?? Are you sure? Have you actually lived in the Gulf so long that you actually do believe that this sort of oppression is 'fair' enough?

Please don't give use the 'it's their country' routine either: mosques have been built across Europe and North America at lightning speed. In 'our countries' we have been frankly negligent in checking the kind of change that will come to assault our culture and traditions in the next forty years.

Happily, the actions of Muslim countries are seen - even if this does not make the newspapers, which of course this won't - and evidence of the tolerance of minorities within "Islamic countries" is there for all to see. When debate turns to freedom of religion in the Middle East, here are more facts to draw on.

there are plenty of churches in Saudi (I belonged to one!)- just private. Also, Saudi never claims to be "open" about religion, as Qatar does

There isn't a single church in Saudi but the companies there have no real problems recruiting Christians ;o)

There are normally three sides to a story. In this case; the authorities, the victims, the truth.

let's hear them, if you know them!

There are two sides to the story.

Too much speculation, too many ridiculous claims - not enough facts. I'm out of here til there's more to go on.

.

.

Doha is a small city.

Let's go to R-Ridges tonight!

(Nota bene: Rumors-Ridges) :P

.

.

I know three of the families who this has happened to in the past three days, and speaking to one member was assured there was no known reason, there had been no violation of laws, nor or they being accused of any violations. No reasons are given. In the fall this happened to another family we knew - and some rather impressive connections with Qatari society, their ten years in the country and their lack of having done anything wrong made no difference - although they were given two months to pack up and leave rather than the initial 24 hours. The father was head of Qatar Little League until deported, so hundreds of families know this to be true. It's important not to blame the victims here.

It's all still rumours, and even if true I think it's unlikely to appear in the papers.

And I really don't think this would affect any company's ability to recruit people.

will this be in any papers or news reports?

Qatar should be careful, though- if expats see this, and refuse to come here, some companies could have difficulty recruiting workers (high-end, oil company experts)to bring their families here!

well there are constraints which have already been given by the authorities here. If you live within that, you wouldnt be in any problem.

You practice your religion in the confines of your home

or in the church then I dont think there will be any issue. But when you try to cross the boundary, there will always be an action from the authorites. If I remember, there was similar situation some 3 months back and this was discussed in detail here.

Ace - in a nutshell, everything you say is irrelevant, since people are allowed to practise other religions here, and there is a church here.

The problem here is that there is quite a few Inferences and opinions presented without facts--for example

"They know they have violated the rules of this country. Then you deserve to be kicked out."

Wow--sounds like some great insight from the one who criticzed the orginial post.

At the end of the day...we have hundreds of mosques in the UK...how many churches are there here? why does one have to neglect their faith just because they move to a different part of the world? no one is protesting or making song and dances, if people want to go to church then why shouldn't they? I myself come from a mixed background in the sense that my father is a muslim and my mother is christian...each to their own i say and as i will finish as i started...if we can have mosques and synagogues in the UK then why can't there be a church here??

to me. As long as you keep yourself to yourself Qatar is a pretty tolerant country. Seems to be along the same line as Carrefore firing all the Muslims employees.... maybe it will leave only the atheists left...

Justmee - I have heard the same and believe it is true. I am suprised that the media has not yet reported it, but I am sure it is only a matter of time before they pick it up.

Baldrick and TallG - it is not only those who have been proselytising. Some are simply those who attend services of various denominations.

Stealth - if these people have only been practicing a faith as endorsed and allowed by the State (as evidenced by the construction of a church), then how are they violating the rules of the country? Have a little compassion for people who are having their lives, and those of their families and children, uprooted without having any idea that this was coming.

Stacey L.

Jumping into conclusion doesn't help anyway!

why should anyone speak out? They know they have violated the rules of this country. Then you deserve to be kicked out.

As baldrick says, I don't think the authorities here take to kindly to people who are actively proselytising (which is fair enough). Perhaps, if there's any truth in this at all, these families were taking their religious practices a bit too far.

Sounds like BS to me. Why would Qatar allow a church to be built then remove christians? Makes no sense.

One possible explanation though is that they are actively trying to convert people to christianity. This is definately frowned upon and I know of a few BAC's who were deported from KSA over this.

That makes no sense at all??? These "families"would surely speak out if told to leave because of their religious beliefs?

Whatever you vividly imagine, Ardently desire, Sincerely believe and Enthusiastically act upon, Must inevitably come to pass.

I heard the rumor yesterday that 30 families have been asked to leave Qatar for religious reasons. Then the GM of my husband's company (Big Oil) sent a letter to all employees saying that there is a rumor and then this truth: that 2 employees have been asked to leave and reminding the rest of us that we were guests in an Islamic country and to act accordingly.

I heard the same and am interested in the story.Is this kind of story reported in the newspaper, or does it stay pretty hush-hush.

I wonder if those having "wasta" will get to stay- seems how things work here, often

who told you this ask him to take you to those families and ask them for the letter or notice they got to leave Qatar.

when you yourself is posting a rumor do you expect others to validate your rumour?