Nomerci: "Evil has to exist" - means is it a choice? :) I don't think so, it always will exist and so does the "goodness".
These two have co-existed since the beginning and barely have an effect on each other. However, things tend to change when they come across one another. The resultant is what matters.
So the real discussion should be that what should be done to bring the resultant to "Goodness"
There are people who are doing things. Perhaps they are not yet able to change the world, but they are changing their surroundings and societies at least. If nothing else they are bettering their families, and bringing up their children to be knowledgeable, upright and just. And perhaps it will be these very children who will be a part of the army of Jesus(Peace be Upon Him), who will succeed ultimately in ridding the world of the wrong doers.
We must not underestimate any good and efforts, and we must not lose hope. For whilst the changes and improvements may take time, or are small in number, or are not being publicized, they are happening.
Fathimah, ok. So, none of you guys are going to do anything in this lifetime, as it looks.
Well, come to think of it,maybe it;s better this way. Maybe it is naive of me to think that if you guys were organized this world would be a better place.
Maybe we need Jesus and his lot to take care of business.
The time when Jesus(Peace be Upon Him) descends on earth and leads an army to triumph over the evil doers lead by the anti Christ. That will be the time, as you described, that the good will indeed, as a unified team, dispel of those who commit atrocities.
When will be that time is of course not disclosed to us, but judging by the events that are occurring today, it cant be too long away!
And God does promise those who work towards this, ie removing and destroying evil,with success and repute in this lifetime itself, and also warns those who do otherwise with humiliation and turbulence. And these verses are found time and again in the Quran.
hmm Fathimah, this does not quite hit the nail on the head....do you think you could sacrifice some time and effort finding something that depicts the outcome for people here , in this life, if they finally get around to taking care, in an organized manner, of those who spread evil?
and it's to die for..if you know what I mean!! Seriously the day we find ourselves completely at peace, forever free of harm from all evil doers, and in a perfectly harmonious place is when and if we die AND are blessed with paradise.
God describes in detail paradise to be the best reward for those who do good and uphold justice. And what more could one then ask for?
As for whilst alive, then yes again we are promised success and ease even on earth eventually from doing what's good and just. That success of course whilst cannot be compared to the perfectness of paradise, will still suffice in making our life on earth more happier and more peaceful. Problem though is, as God himself said, mankind is indeed both hasty and impatient, wanting more instant rewards and gratifications by doing little and by sacrificing nothing!
And that's what must be done. After all if the evil can group together to spread mischief and falsehood, then anyone who intends good must do the same. Of course there are the sacrifices.You may face abuses and threats, you might find yourself ostracized, and people who you thought were your closest of friends might become your foes, but you still must stand up for justice and righteousness. You still must do your part in stopping the evil, and you must then be willing to pay the price.
Not wanting to make this discussion a religious one Nom, but only for a friendly exchanging of knowledge, there is actually a surah in the Quran(albeit a short one) that basically says just this: That by time mankind will be at lost except those who do seek knowledge of the good and bad, then practice what they learn, then enjoin the good and forbid the evil whilst remaining steadfast and patient despite the hardships one may then have to undergo due to doing so.
I can honestly say that I have and am doing my part in trying to bring about unity among those with me, and even those who I can reach via modern technology!
But let me tell you the predicaments one faces in this situation:
Today to explain to someone the difference between good and evil is becoming harder and tougher. The boundaries between falsehood and truth are becoming blurrier to distinguish for many. And the seeds of disagreements and discord is now sown deep and widespread. Not to mention the ultimate evil arrogance and pride that stops many from accepting the truth!
Then you get those who agree with your view and share your sentiments yet are not willing to be a part of your mission due to their own fears, limitations, engagements and priorities.
So what do you do? You then realize again that its truly each man for themselves and just do what you have to do, and somehow hope your protectiveness will catch on.
But a community must be a unified one to assume duties as a community. If not then it's simply upon each law abiding and upright individual to do what they can with their God given knowledge and might, despite the obvious weakness and division present in their community.
Because those who want to do something really can't and those who can wont. Hence the need for a third party, which of course can and has many times backfired.
Again each one of us just must try and try again to be the change we want to see, and know we are not ultimately responsible for the actions of others. We can only do what we can!
tinks, I can't agree. amazing feats have been accomplished...in your country Gandhi is a good example. If it can be done once, it certainly can be done again,non?
I'd say what really needs to be done is for people to get off their arses.
Each person must have with them their own limitations and fears in this affair. We cannot control the actions of others, we simply must do what we can, when we can, and how we can. And we must also use whatever we have of understandably limited ability and resources to do so. We may or may not get the desired results but at least we can sleep at night knowing we are not responsible for any injustice. And that we were indeed not the mute Shaitan.
Oh and I maybe slow, but I eventually do get y'point ;)
Well Fathimah, yes, that is certainly the truth. Never the less, there are situations where the need for real action is apparent to ALL. Why leave it to outsiders?
Guess we cannot control the actions of others, only our own. So let's just do our part and encourage those around us to do the same. Perhaps we may bring upon a good greater than we ever thought we could!
I say you still continue and don't give up. Yes at times it may seem overwhelming and perhaps despite your efforts an evil will still go unpunished, but at least you know then that you had no part to play in the affair.
Funny thing is, they will remain passive...saying "What can we do" ?
That suggests they need a leader, a leader that tells them what to do.
Seems there is no one around though.
And things are left for others to deal with...others, who don't really have anything to do with the problem in the first place. others, who, due to circumstance, don;t know what kind of evil they are dealing with...hence, are losing one battle after the other.
Which leads us to the conclusion that those who are leaderless and ask "what can we do" are part of the problem.Non?
And shame in doing evil, then we needn't/shouldn't have fear or shame in doing what's right and just. What we lack sometimes is the courage or maybe we fear the breaking of ties or loss of some worldly benefits. Or maybe we feel we will not be able to bear the pressure and commitment that may come once we take that path of speaking out against a wrong.
The solution then is to first overcome these fears and know that by our keeping quiet not only will a wrong doer get off Scott free and a crime go unpunished, but we may very well find ourselves in the place of the victim next, with no one to speak for us!
Suffice to say I do try hard night and day to practice this mantra and even encourage those around me to do so, regardless of what we may have to endure of hardship and loss.
Like the old proverb goes "The person who dosen't speak out against the wrong is a mute devil"
Forbidding and condemning an evil is just as important as enjoining and condoning the good. The more the world is bereft of such beings then truly we are in great peril and calamities are bound to occur with injustice becoming widespread!
And one should not hesitate to speak out against the wrong and/or the wrongdoer regardless of who he/she/they maybe, even if they be their most beloved companion and/or closest of kin!
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Nomerci: "Evil has to exist" - means is it a choice? :) I don't think so, it always will exist and so does the "goodness".
These two have co-existed since the beginning and barely have an effect on each other. However, things tend to change when they come across one another. The resultant is what matters.
So the real discussion should be that what should be done to bring the resultant to "Goodness"
Knight, evil triumphs if there is more evil than goodness.
But, without evil there is no goodness either.
evil has to exist, but be kept to minimum, so goodness is appreciated.
=))
Fathimah, you are right. One must never lose hope.:)
There are people who are doing things. Perhaps they are not yet able to change the world, but they are changing their surroundings and societies at least. If nothing else they are bettering their families, and bringing up their children to be knowledgeable, upright and just. And perhaps it will be these very children who will be a part of the army of Jesus(Peace be Upon Him), who will succeed ultimately in ridding the world of the wrong doers.
We must not underestimate any good and efforts, and we must not lose hope. For whilst the changes and improvements may take time, or are small in number, or are not being publicized, they are happening.
nomerci, can you explain - what is necessary for the triumph of evil?
Fathimah, ok. So, none of you guys are going to do anything in this lifetime, as it looks.
Well, come to think of it,maybe it;s better this way. Maybe it is naive of me to think that if you guys were organized this world would be a better place.
Maybe we need Jesus and his lot to take care of business.
Who knows....well, apparently you guys do ;)
The time when Jesus(Peace be Upon Him) descends on earth and leads an army to triumph over the evil doers lead by the anti Christ. That will be the time, as you described, that the good will indeed, as a unified team, dispel of those who commit atrocities.
When will be that time is of course not disclosed to us, but judging by the events that are occurring today, it cant be too long away!
And God does promise those who work towards this, ie removing and destroying evil,with success and repute in this lifetime itself, and also warns those who do otherwise with humiliation and turbulence. And these verses are found time and again in the Quran.
hmm Fathimah, this does not quite hit the nail on the head....do you think you could sacrifice some time and effort finding something that depicts the outcome for people here , in this life, if they finally get around to taking care, in an organized manner, of those who spread evil?
and it's to die for..if you know what I mean!! Seriously the day we find ourselves completely at peace, forever free of harm from all evil doers, and in a perfectly harmonious place is when and if we die AND are blessed with paradise.
God describes in detail paradise to be the best reward for those who do good and uphold justice. And what more could one then ask for?
As for whilst alive, then yes again we are promised success and ease even on earth eventually from doing what's good and just. That success of course whilst cannot be compared to the perfectness of paradise, will still suffice in making our life on earth more happier and more peaceful. Problem though is, as God himself said, mankind is indeed both hasty and impatient, wanting more instant rewards and gratifications by doing little and by sacrificing nothing!
Fathimah, is there also a prophecy that tells us what happens after the people had done this? that might be a bit of an incentive....
And that's what must be done. After all if the evil can group together to spread mischief and falsehood, then anyone who intends good must do the same. Of course there are the sacrifices.You may face abuses and threats, you might find yourself ostracized, and people who you thought were your closest of friends might become your foes, but you still must stand up for justice and righteousness. You still must do your part in stopping the evil, and you must then be willing to pay the price.
Not wanting to make this discussion a religious one Nom, but only for a friendly exchanging of knowledge, there is actually a surah in the Quran(albeit a short one) that basically says just this: That by time mankind will be at lost except those who do seek knowledge of the good and bad, then practice what they learn, then enjoin the good and forbid the evil whilst remaining steadfast and patient despite the hardships one may then have to undergo due to doing so.
Then Fathimah, you have to become a leader. I do not mean you personally, but looking at it generally.
And I don't even want to think about the future consequences of this.
I can honestly say that I have and am doing my part in trying to bring about unity among those with me, and even those who I can reach via modern technology!
But let me tell you the predicaments one faces in this situation:
Today to explain to someone the difference between good and evil is becoming harder and tougher. The boundaries between falsehood and truth are becoming blurrier to distinguish for many. And the seeds of disagreements and discord is now sown deep and widespread. Not to mention the ultimate evil arrogance and pride that stops many from accepting the truth!
Then you get those who agree with your view and share your sentiments yet are not willing to be a part of your mission due to their own fears, limitations, engagements and priorities.
So what do you do? You then realize again that its truly each man for themselves and just do what you have to do, and somehow hope your protectiveness will catch on.
Then the first priority is to unify this community.
with that, one can get rid of thr bad apples.
come on, you people are as capable as anybody else...just make at least a Start!
But a community must be a unified one to assume duties as a community. If not then it's simply upon each law abiding and upright individual to do what they can with their God given knowledge and might, despite the obvious weakness and division present in their community.
Fathimah, I think we are responsible for what happens in our community. Especially if things go as far as to affect other communities negatively.
Because those who want to do something really can't and those who can wont. Hence the need for a third party, which of course can and has many times backfired.
Again each one of us just must try and try again to be the change we want to see, and know we are not ultimately responsible for the actions of others. We can only do what we can!
no merci check PM
Change, babu.
Gandhi is a good example for ?
tinks, I can't agree. amazing feats have been accomplished...in your country Gandhi is a good example. If it can be done once, it certainly can be done again,non?
I'd say what really needs to be done is for people to get off their arses.
Each person must have with them their own limitations and fears in this affair. We cannot control the actions of others, we simply must do what we can, when we can, and how we can. And we must also use whatever we have of understandably limited ability and resources to do so. We may or may not get the desired results but at least we can sleep at night knowing we are not responsible for any injustice. And that we were indeed not the mute Shaitan.
Oh and I maybe slow, but I eventually do get y'point ;)
Well Fathimah, yes, that is certainly the truth. Never the less, there are situations where the need for real action is apparent to ALL. Why leave it to outsiders?
Tinks, I am not only talking about HERE.
Fathimah, I NEVER give up ;)
was wondering when you'd catch on :)
See, I am and will be of the opinion that you guys need to fix the problem, one way or another.
I will follow ur lead whenever possible Tinker
Guess we cannot control the actions of others, only our own. So let's just do our part and encourage those around us to do the same. Perhaps we may bring upon a good greater than we ever thought we could!
I say you still continue and don't give up. Yes at times it may seem overwhelming and perhaps despite your efforts an evil will still go unpunished, but at least you know then that you had no part to play in the affair.
Edmund Burke was an evil man
Draccy, YES.
And I am sure all will agree.
Funny thing is, they will remain passive...saying "What can we do" ?
That suggests they need a leader, a leader that tells them what to do.
Seems there is no one around though.
And things are left for others to deal with...others, who don't really have anything to do with the problem in the first place. others, who, due to circumstance, don;t know what kind of evil they are dealing with...hence, are losing one battle after the other.
Which leads us to the conclusion that those who are leaderless and ask "what can we do" are part of the problem.Non?
let the men wear full viel and ladies to roam naked
And shame in doing evil, then we needn't/shouldn't have fear or shame in doing what's right and just. What we lack sometimes is the courage or maybe we fear the breaking of ties or loss of some worldly benefits. Or maybe we feel we will not be able to bear the pressure and commitment that may come once we take that path of speaking out against a wrong.
The solution then is to first overcome these fears and know that by our keeping quiet not only will a wrong doer get off Scott free and a crime go unpunished, but we may very well find ourselves in the place of the victim next, with no one to speak for us!
Good. I lead by example.
BUT, here is the problem...there is still too much evil...so, what do we do?
It means that evil is like a disease and is not neutral!
If you stop resisting to a disease (not taking medicine against it for example),it will continue to grow and spread.
To fight against a disease, you need medicine...
To fight against evil, you need to wake up and do something!
.
.
.
PS:
-Be cool and put that wooden spear down! :)
Suffice to say I do try hard night and day to practice this mantra and even encourage those around me to do so, regardless of what we may have to endure of hardship and loss.
Like the old proverb goes "The person who dosen't speak out against the wrong is a mute devil"
Forbidding and condemning an evil is just as important as enjoining and condoning the good. The more the world is bereft of such beings then truly we are in great peril and calamities are bound to occur with injustice becoming widespread!
And one should not hesitate to speak out against the wrong and/or the wrongdoer regardless of who he/she/they maybe, even if they be their most beloved companion and/or closest of kin!
Good. i see that we agree.
Now, do tell, what are you actually DOING ?