Parents Most Likely to Murder Their Children
During the course of some research into 'honour killing', a name I refuse to give to cold-blooded murder, I came across some disturbing recent statistics out of the UK. It seems that a child in the UK is far more liklely to be murdered by a parent, usually the Father, than a stranger. And in almost all cases, the murder is pre-meditated:
Of all violent crimes, those where a parent takes the lives of his or her children are the most baffling. Most parents would die to protect their child. So for a mother or father to look at their son or daughter, perhaps hear their cries, and see their uncomprehending faces, and kill them, is almost too abhorrent to think about. They must have snapped, lost their mind in a moment of madness or insanity, is the most common and convenient explanation.
It isn't surprising that we tend to recoil in horror at such tragedies and seek comfort in the belief that they are isolated incidents, senseless - and, as a consequence, impossible to avert. But the truth may be slightly less palatable. Although rare, figures show that a child in the United Kingdom is far more likely to be murdered by his or her parent than by a stranger. Even more disturbing is that many experts insist that they are virtually all premeditated.
I have to admit, this makes chilling reading. For a variety of reasons, wife leaving, jealousy, 'honour', etc, etc, it seems Fathers are quite capable of murdering their own children, listening to them scream as they die a painful death.
I would be interested to hear your comments. Please read the full article from the link below:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/nov/05/ukcrime.lornamartin
Sorry Ragna, I wouldn't trust the Canadian government when it comes to protecting children. I've yet to see them do anything right in that regards.
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AA..your right, as a ex social worker, when government intervention occurs its very hard to get rid of them but they are so inundated with cases they dont have the resources or time to just enter any home without concerns. To be honest i am glad that its not that easy to get rid of them especially in cases where children are in potential danger...
I worked for a gvoernement service for 10 years and trust me i can see your concerns and not to fond of the government practices but in this particular case(child services),i think its warranted.
I have seen children with cigarette burn marks on them, and 2 yo children who have been thrown to the wall with severe injuries, these are the ones i am talking about.
Serious though....I guess it would depend on the governemt in question and their track record....I would trust my (Canadian) government.....for all their faults, they do a heck of a lot more good than bad.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
So who would you suggest should protect abused children AA?
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Why is it that some think government intervention is a strange idea? What other alternatives is there? If the parents are the ones the children need protection from, then who will prtoect them. Child services is no where near perfect, granted, but what is the other alternative? Keep them in the arms of the ones who are a danger to them, or like gypsy said send them back to unfit parents? Gypsy is spot on, we are more concerned with parents rights (who i might add can defend themselves), not childrens rights(who are innocent to this world and and need protection)
I agree that child services gets it wrong sometimes but what about when they get it right. Isnt one childs life worth saving..
AA, I dont think you can compare this topic(child murder) with home schooling.
The reason welfare services are so messed up is because of intervention from the public. Silly outdated ideas about parental rights, etc. Child Welfare is supposed to be about whats best for the child,not about the rights of the parent, or whats the cheapest/easiest way for the government to do it, this leads to children consistently be given back to unfit parents and allows unfit foster parents who are only in it for the money into the system.
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Abuamerican, children in need of protection need the protection FROM their parents. The parents are the ones doing them harm. Children have rights. They should not soley be at the mercy of their parents.
The most widely ratified human rights treaty in history is the Convention on the Rights of the Child
http://www.unicef.org/crc/
Over 190 have committed to a code of obligations to their children.
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Supernurse - this isn't specific to the UK. It happens all over the world. It just so happens that these statistics are for the UK.
Yes, Abuamerican, sometimes the system does fail the child. However statistically that is in the minority of cases. Surely to have a system in place is better than no system if the majority of the time it works? What else do you suggest?
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Baedebok, sometimes I can hardly believe you hold some of your opinions. Actually perhaps it's someone like you who needs to be investigated. After all, you did ask on a public forum how one should hit their child, how hard, how many times, etc. To me, that is scary.
And clearly the government do not think everyone guilty until proven ionnocent as their are many children worldwide dying at the hands of their parents or being physically or emotionally abused.
How dare you be so selfish towards children who need intervention to protect them from their cruel parents just because you think you're doing an OK job. Most countries realise that not every parent is capable of raising a child and have social services in an attempt to help. However, these tireless social workers are underpaid and undervalued with huge caseloads involving many hostile clients.
Pah, I should know better. You, after all, even coming from Canada which is one of the leaders in child car safety, cobbled together two halves of car seats that you found in the garbage and transported your daughter around like that. Would you do that in Canada? did you do that here just because you thought you could get away with it?
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it's really a f'd up situation as well. social services says they have too many to service? where's the friggin' irony there?? a bunch of low life social degenerates as well.... and the government, omg!!!
The government are corrupt in the UK and the social services seem to feck up every five minutes......sigh.....the country is a mess....
"It is dangerous to be sincere unless you are also stupid."
- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
right! Horrible!!!
unfortunately, no one is going to help the situation. many times when there is an intervention it obviously goes unmonitored.
true and absolutely pathetic!
horrible UK again......Yukkk!!
"It is dangerous to be sincere unless you are also stupid."
- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
This topc makes me sick to the stomach. These poor kids who supposedly have their parents to protect them from harm and danger, unaware that the danger is within the home. I cant imagine what those poor defenceless kids suffered during this murder, its sick..Imagine looking at your parents lovingly, expecting love only to be "killed".
I do think that governemnt intervention is not only needed but warranted, no matter how intrusive some people think it is. The problem is that no one knows whats happening to children behind closed doors and if they can save some kids, then im all for it. If you are a great parent then you really have nothing to worry about but if they can save one child who cannot protect themselves from phyiscal abuse or a parent who is in need of psychiatric help, then isnt it worth it.
If the government doesnt intervene then who will, there will be no one for these children to protect them and they will continue suffering behind closed doors..
Unfortunately, this publicized offspring-killing has given the government cause to interfere in families more and more. A few bad apples makes the government think that the whole lot can't be trusted and needs to be "watched" and treated "guilty until proven innocent".
In fact, the government is meddling more and more in private family life. It is a sad outcome of some child-killings.
It is the norm as is proven by the statistics. But I think that people find it somehow more palatable if a child is murdered by a stranger than by their Father. If murder could be palatable that is.
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Wouldn't this be considered the norm though? Aren't most murders committed by family members and close friends? Murders by strangers are uncommon, given a child's lack of independence, wouldn't we expect them to murdered by their families more than anyone else?
As for men being more likely than women to kill and infant, well, I have no children, but I have very good male friends who have said in moments of frankness that they felt nothing for their children while they were infants and that it wasn't until they got older that they bonded with it. I believe that to be not uncommon.
I'm sorry but if you've proven yourself an unfit parent you shouldn't be given a second chance.
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I advocate psychological screening of the parents, not physical screening. There are many emotional and psychological signs that pop up with abusive mentalities. And I would advocate enforced sterilization. Especially for those that have abused children in the past. My adopted brothers mother put him in the hospital several times and then was allowed to go on and have 3 more children. She should have been sterlized the first time she beat him.
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Do kids want to live in a family where they are abused, where the parents abuse each other, where they are put into orphanages, or murdered - I will tell you no - no way, they can't live and develop properly and if they are not strong will live damaged lives until they die.
Ask this question - who gave my parents the to right to put me here and let me suffer abuse me batter me, or leav me on the street to hunger WHO was it??
Ragnarock Raider ....you have answered it!
You discribed how you take care of your child, and how you bond with it.
People who have no such bond with their children could easily abuse their kids or even kill them. As it doesnt affect them any more than murdering a stranger. This is true more with fathers than with mothers, as usually mothers are more attached to a child and vice versa than a father.
This is happens even today in India usually in the Northern part -UP & Bihar. If a high cast girl elopes with a low cast boy then they both are hunted down & shot.
Then there are cases of mentally retarded people. Which doesnt fall in this category "Honour Killing".
Screening would be unnatural selection rather than natural selection. I am suddenly reminded of Hitler and his attempts to create the supreme Aryan race. I know that's extreme but that's what has sprung to mind along with memories of reading Brave New World.
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Speaking from a medical point of view regarding screening for abnormal pregnancies and stuff, it is a VERY controversial issue and so many ethical/economical/social factors come into play that I can't even begin to talk about.
As for screening before allowing someone to get pregnant, it's a bit of a far-fetched idea. I mean, people will get pregnant anyways whether they're approved or not, what happens next? Force them to abort? That's another controversial issue. Take the baby away from them?
How can u make sure that those who aren't 'licensed' don't get pregnant?
I'm not always right, but I'm never wrong -Garfield
tallg, a very small number of severely emotionally dysfunctional individuals. And I think the article itself offers suggestions as to the kinds of things which provoke them.
***********
"There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out". - Richard Dawkins
'Europeans' and stuff, lol. ***********
"There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out". - Richard Dawkins
Well I should definitely NOT be making the decisions, else the human race would become extinct pretty quickly!
But joking aside, obviously there are a huge number of issues associated with screening and I can't say I've given them much thought (and nor do I wish to). I'm just sick of hearing stories about parents abusing their children, whether it's through emotional neglect, poor living conditions, poor diet, physical abuse, killng, etc etc.
The Groniad usually comes up with these types of articles. the types of killings cannot be described as "Honour killings". Its very sad reflection on society, but i suppose it's to do with the breakup of the family unit and also the stresses on parents.
As I see it yes there should be concern about couples putting kids into the world.
The point is not only abusing or killing children but there has to be enough food and space to live so that the child is protected. Here we are talking about Europe but take India as an example - kids set out on the street withut food nor shelter is this not killing them too. The story as said is a bottemless pit but I do think there should be an actions taken to prevent kids being born and then being killed/murdered.
Killing a child is killing a child, people who do so are usually incapable of developing bonds, and most mothers will have developed that bond while the child was in the womb.
There are lots of ways one could test for the ability to have children. Education, monetary levels, more importantly psychological assessment.
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S'ok Tall.
But wouldn't screening, etc be a bit Brave New Worldish? How would we actually prevent someone from becoming pregnant? And would we also stop people who would be likely to have a physically or mentally challenged child based on their genetics? Who would make those decisions?
SHOULD we make those decisions?
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Not at all DG - I'm very serious in my belief that people should be screened and tested before they are allowed to reproduce. The article you've brought to our attention here merely strengthens that belief. Apologies if the way I originally phrased this seemed a bit flippant.
Could well be J. I've only got to western stastistics so far in my research as they are the most readily available.
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but one point springs to mind regarding the news article, where it says:
"Although rare, figures show that a child in the United Kingdom is far more likely to be murdered by his or her parent than by a stranger".
I always understood that, WORLDWIDE, statistics have shown that the vast MAJORITY of people (whether child or adult) who have been murdered are usually murdered by a family member rather than a total stranger.
It has nothing to do with Europeans - there are a vast number of other nations living there and doing the same thing to their kids. Just so happens that this article was about British.
I believe that at least 70% breed just for the sake of breeding and are incapable of good parenting, and if you are even thinking of putting two kids into the world - at least there should be funds there to finance their first few years in safety.
Catholics on the other hand at one time bred because that was the teaching of the church - and everyone who went to church was graded as a good catholic, it never occured to the priest that parishoners might be abusing their kids and anyone who died earlier it was an accident.
This is a topic that has no bottom to it.
I totally agree with Gypsy - just because you can procreate doesn't mean you will be able to look after a child.
Glad you're finding it so amusing Tall. I have a feeling you're Extracting the Michael.
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Why is it we are so strict when it comes to frivolous stuff, but yet any idiot can go and procreate??? Make it mandatory to take a course, pass a test, and get a licence!
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
It's bullying in an extreme form. Children are vulnerable and therefore easy targets.
As an adult dealing with people (both adults and children), we stress that verbal conflict resolution is the way to go over physical resolution. It is a crime to hit someone. There will be formal consequences.
Then some parents go home and whack their kids. It's beyond my understanding.
Ooops, musn't turn this into another pro/anti smacking thread without Baedebok ;)
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No way do Europeans suffer the most AbuAmerican, it's just that it's publiscized there. Look at North East Asia where people leave their baby girls in the street to die because they would rather have a boy.
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DG - yes of course it needs to be addressed. I'm adding "potential to kill child" to my big list of reasons why people should be screened and tested before they're allowed to go off breeding all over the place.
I suppose this doesn't surprise me in the least, simply because I've been exposed to it so much from a young age. I don't have great faith in parents or believe that the possesion of sperm and an egg make you a parent. If it was up to me you'd need a liscense to have children.
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I think this is where it starts, I think the child is used to release a certain portion of anger, then because there is not retalliation the agression gets stronger, and the temper gets more out of control.
I think sometimes if the aggressor would get a taste of his own medicine he might think twice a secontd time. However, police are most unwilling to get pulled into domestic violence even though on tv shows it looks different. Perhaps they will go to 1 in 100.000 cases only.
It also depends on the background of the parents if they were illused by their parents before them, and then the grandparents, I think there is a pattern in the way these things go, and is handed down from generation to generation and as it goes agressions get stronger.
I know Canarybird, I am completely anti hitting your child. Baedebok has a thread about that from way back where I have argued with others over this.
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Tallg, the reason I posted the topic is because I was shocked to learn that MOST children who are murdered in the UK are murdered by their Father.
The fact is that even one child murdered by their parent (or anyone else for that matter) is too many.
Definitely something to be addressed.
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It starts with hitting and battering the kids often and from there proceeds to other levels.
'Honour killings' aka murder are really just the tip of a very sick iceberg for fillicide (murdering your child). Unfortunately there are many 'reasons' parents give for killing their own.
Apparently 3-5 children in the US are murdered by their parents every day.
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Wow DG, what a cheery topic!!
I have never experienced anything that puts me in a position to discuss the ins and outs of what drives a parent to murdering their child, so I think I'll leave that well alone.
I don't have children myself, but I can safely say that I've never felt like inflicting pain, let alone killing my recently acquired pet dog, regardless of how many shoes she destroys or wires she chews through!
I think it's worth pointing out the statistics for those who can't be bothered to read the full article;
The most recent crime statistics, for 2002/03, show that 99 people under the age of 16 were murdered in England and Wales, and seven in Scotland. More than half were killed by a parent, another 10 per cent by someone else they knew, and fewer than 20 per cent by a person unknown to them.
So we are talking about a very small number, so peoples tendency to "seek comfort in the belief that they are isolated incidents" would seem to be a reasonable reaction.
Its sad but true...the problem is people have added such ridiculous stuff in their lives on the name of culture & traditions.. that has nothing to do with not religion not humanity... unfortunately, keeping up pointless issues results in "Honor Killing"
I pray world could be a better place to live in...
Its just getting hot and we can't fly anywhere, so it looks like we'll hunker beneath the ACs this summer lol.
We are looking forward to number 2, sometime in the end of October/Beginning of Novemeber hopefully.
I know Diamondgirl...I always wanted kids, but I never knew just HOW much of a joy they are....despite the hardships (and there ARE plenty of sleepless nights....but they are SO worth it)!
Hope your kids "Byirbou Bi Dalalkom"? Did I say that right? lol
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
It is so true the amount of abuse and killing that goes on, just last week in Germany again 3 babies were found in the freezer the death of the babies goes back to (the police think) 1989, the mother put them there and her teenage son found them when he was looking for a Pizza .
I don't understand how the human mind works in such moments, these poor things need protection and care.
However, on that note having grown up in a family where the parents tolerated each other ONLY, we kids were used for all kinds of negotiations.
One time in the middle of winter on New Years Eve I remember being forced out into the garden where the snow was knee we small kids in our pyjamas with no coats, because my mother and father were battling it out in the house and the garden was safer.
My mother was the agressor not my father, my mother was running around with a knife in her hand and threatening everyone.
I feel for all these kids because they are trapped and innocent but are being used by incapable parents.
I know RR, who knew such happiness was to be found? We are so lucky. Me three times over :)
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hey RR, hows the pregnancy going? hope the mother is happy and healthy. all the best for you. really you are blessed with this pregnancy.
Everybody is right everybody is wrong it depends where you stand.
I now LIVE for time to spend with my baby daughter....bathing her every night, creaming/massaging her, putting on her diapers, dressing her in her little PJs, feeding her the nightly bottle, burping her, brushing her teeth, then reading to her...finally singing her off to sleep....my life would not be complete without that!
Just the though of her feeling a little under the weather keeps me up at nights.....so to try and "understand" how any parent can harm their child is impossible for me....
Hopefully one day you will experience the joys of parenthood Mila...
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
i believe that too DG. I will do anything to protect them and teach them the good and the bad things in life. Thanks for opening up this thread I would very much interested to hear others have to say.
Everybody is right everybody is wrong it depends where you stand.
Ah Mila, if you have a child and are anything like me, your life's mission becomes loving them and raising them in happiness. You protect them at all costs and worry about them all the time. Your life becomes about them. Wonderfully so :) It's such a blessing.
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It is at the same time disturbing and baffling....I cannot even begin to fathom "how" any father is capable of doing something like that...
Stay safe.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
good articles DG, but i cannot comment much as i never had a children yet. but one thing i can say, so many stress and twisted mind people outhere.
Everybody is right everybody is wrong it depends where you stand.