Murder - Should children be tried as adults
Was intrigued by an article about an 11 year old who allegedly killed his father's pregnant fiancee. The prosecution want him to be tried as an adult, whereas he is appealing to be tried as a minor..
This brought back memories of the James Bulger case in the UK a few years ago..
In this case, if he is tried as an adult and found guilty , then he will "automatically" serve a life sentence with no chance of parole.
There are ofcourse two sides. The boys father says "Try to explain to a 12-year-old what the rest of your life means. It's incomprehensible for him,"
The victim's mother on the other hand says I can't stand this 'Oh, he's 11,' 'Oh, his clothes don't fit him,'..He knew what he was doing. He killed my baby."
So what say YOU ?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/25/us-boy-accused-murder-appeals
i followed the case of james Bulger ... im fascinated with the case itself. i cant seem manage to dig deeper on how those kids thinking when committing the crime.
..it all boils down that he is still a child and should be tried as a child despite of how big the crime is.
No doubt he understood what murder was, but I highly doubt he understood the consequences. He probably though "I'll go to jail." What's jail to an 11 year old? A place where you live behind bars?
I highly doubt he quite grasped what jail in the States REALLY is. A place where he'll be repeatedly raped and beaten by his fellow inmates for years. I don't think violent Anal rape ever crossed his mind when he picked up that gun.
Also for those who say the child won't change. That's not true. wiki the James Bulger case and look at the links, there have been several cases in the UK of children being released and not recommiting, one of the James Bulger killers included.
These children CAN be rehabilitated.
review of juvenile justice system should be periodically done to cope up with the times!
Oryx, excuse me?
cabbage, no, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that I do not know. Gut feeling does not do it here. I have not much participated in this thread for exactly that reason, I do not have the knowledge to make an educated decision.
So therefore you cannot say they should be dealt with in a juvenile court.
This is the very essence of the thread.
I say, some are damaged children through no fault of their own. Can they recover? I doubt it.
So what do we do, take them to a juvenile court where they are protected and there is an assumption they can be rehabilitated or do we think- they as children committed a perceived adult crime at a young age and we think they will never change, so therefore they go away forever?
It has been proven time and time again that if a child commits a serious crime at a young age this is embedded in them forever.
This has a lot to do with how the courts dealt with them.
It has also got a lot to do with what I spoke about earlier; these children should be rescued if there is a perceived and real threat that all they know is violence and abuse.
When Baby P was abused and consequently murdered in the UK, some scholars actually made the point; that even though he was let down (and that poor child was), in some way BECAUSE of his background and the way he would have brought up (should the little lamb survive) he too would have turned out as bad as his so called carers. So his death, in some people’s eyes, prevented the abused becoming the abuser.
I have said throughout this thread that my honest opinion is this; a child that sees violence and abuse will copy it. Just as much as a child who is surrounded by love and reassurance usually turns out to be a fully functioning human.
Ask yourself this; if your child was being bullied at school by a peer, would you want that stamped out? If your child was killed by his peer, are you honestly telling me you would turn the other cheek?
I do not know. I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist. I have no experience with this sort of thing.
My gut feeling would say that it depends on the individual case, what the child is like, its background etc.
That is also a valid point. However, these children have/did/will commit adult crimes. The question is; how are they dealt with after?
Are they so damaged they will never recover and therefore there is potential for them to murder again. So does society decide they must be locked up or do we go for rehabilitation in the hope we can merge them into civilised society?
Eddy, i think those who put the guns into the hands of the children are to blame. The children are brainwashed, desensitized and brutalized...by those people.
They have a point to! However, this topic is about if they should be tried in an adult court.
I think most are divided at this moment in time.
Which makes for good debate.
Let us not be drawn to have pity on the child coz of his smiling photo! Why can't you show us the photo of the pregnant woman he killed?
In Africa as the warlords say, "there is no difference in the bullet shot from a gun by a child and that shot from a gun by an adult". They are all fatal as long as the aim is good too!
I remember it very well and I was disgusted they were ever released.
They should be still be behind bars.
Half of what they did to that poor child was never made public but I know some of it and it was evil and beyond anything that children of their ages should have known about.
Look at what happened as soon as John Venebles was released.
Sorry to digress, but do you recall the murder of james Bulger ?
Did you agree with the sentence then ?
Polkas busy doing battle elsewhere. Shall we whistle a happy tune whilst we wait?
Valid argument. So, what in your opinion should the sentence be , if he is found guilty ?
Ok, say we agree to this child tried in a Juvenille Court; on the assumption this child did not know what he was doing?
Would you then let him back in society or do you think he should be detained forever?
I agree with Mike and Nic in saying that a 11 yr old kid should be tried as a Juvi. A 11 year old, no doubt understands the word murder just as a 3 year old understands the word mother and can recognize the person does that mean the 3 year old is fit enough to be one? Now I know it is impossible biologically, is the biological difficulty the only problem standing in the way? Like wise a 11 year old understands the word Murder, can recognize it but cannot fully decide on it's nessacity, consequences. His only motive looks like to remove a perceived problem, and for that an adult can come up with many other options, other than murder but as a kid he could think of only one. Now not all adults can come up with such reasoning, the result of which we do have adult murderers. But the kid in question should be given a chance to fully mature and then wait for him to take wise decisions or not. Right now he is a kid and will remain so until 18 and so just like in any thing else should be treated as a kid and should have the caretakers also accountable for his actions.
Thank you very much for your thought provoking posts.
Then I propose there should be a death penalty for those who have +25 for carjacking.
Who agrees with this idea?
Thanks’ for that and of course all research based evidence is always welcome. Darwin thought the human male brain only matured fully in his thirty’s or forty’s.
So of course all research should and is usually taken at face value – more and more is discovered and ideas refuted.
MRI do show that a child’s neural pathways change, especially in puberty and of course in some people the frontal lobe will never fully develop.
In all of the research I have been a party to when assessing when a child’s brain reaches maturity; broad questions such; ‘when it rains, does the ground become warm’ are used. Thus testing- cognitive skills and reasoning power. Never been there when a child has been asked; ‘what is better – going to school or shooting somebody in the head with a gun’.
The reason being, most scientists, psychologists and teachers agree one thing, a child’s brain at eleven; if they are acting in a ‘normal’ way will be mature enough to know that killing another human being is wrong.
For those who would bother to do a simple search:
A child's brain fully develops by age 25
Brain research shows that the human brain goes through a slow maturation process between ages 10 through 25. The emotional make-up of a child is generally fully developed by age five.
A Dartmouth College study reveals there is a significant shift in a person’s brain after age 18, when the individual is emerging into young adulthood.
The human brain reportedly becomes fully developed at age 25.
Prior to full brain development children exhibit the following behaviors more coincidentally vs. consistently:
• Decision making
• Use of appropriate judgment
• Rational thinking
• Integration of emotion & critical thinking
• Ability to think clearly about long-term outcomes that stem from behaviors
• Global thinking vs. self-centered thinking
Continue reading on Examiner.com:
http://www.examiner.com/parenting-education-in-newark/a-child-s-brain-fully-develops-by-age-25
cabbage,
I am not going to argue with you here on a public forum what science has proven: The human brain is not fully developed at 11!
Nobody here is saying that he is not guilty or that he should not be prosecuted if that is the case.
All I am saying is that he is not an adult!
Interesting read.
Nic
try another pic, this one look like 7 years old
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/take-all-prisoners/201002/children-who-murder-jordan-brown-eric-smith-and-others
A child’s brain is fully mature at 11 and he should know by then that picking a gun up and using it to kill; makes him a murderer.
There was malice aforethought.
There have been many cases of children who have no psychological problems who have done truly evil deeds.
In England a boy of fourteen raped a girl of ten. Rape is usually classed as an ‘adult crime’. If a fourteen year old boy is ‘mature’ enough to think about rape, abduct a girl and then act on his urges he should be tried in an adult court.
What got him to act like that should also be addressed.
here is the photo of the child we are all here judging:
and here is the website that aims him to be prosecuted as the child he is:
http://www.jordanbrowntrust.org/
Thanks. I agree with you. You reminded me of the case of the "Child Assassin" utilised by the drug cartels in Mexico.
Let us hope that there are fewer occurances of such crimes and parents stand up and not only instil values in, but also take responsibility for their children.
Oryx,
What I was saying is that a brain at 11 is not fully matured.
Don’t tell me that you can't understand what I meant. This is science!
Yes, you can do almost every thing like adults do such as you can read and you already know that killing is a no no no, at 11. However, the depth of thought of an 11 year old, around the act and around the consequences are different (generally shallower) from a fully grown up adult. (Aka know as maturity)
I said if the kid is guilty he should be prosecuted and punished for what he did, but never forget he is a kid!
Imagine how the world would be if we are going to treat 11 year olds as adults and if we are going to expect and count on them as if they were adults!
Britexpat, he will be trialed hopefully with all fairness. And yes, I agree that he will have to pay his dues and the most terrible about all this is that no punishment will bring this dead person's back to life. What really horrifies me the most is some people wanting his head as a monster, instead of questioning "who the hell created this monster, when, who and why?!?!?"
My wife is an attorney and she spent part of his internship in a minor court in Venezuela (which is widely known as one of worst court systems in the region) and she told me that some of these kids have full awareness of their rights and in some cases, they can be far more dangerous and cruel than any adult expert criminal.
My take is that they are the result of the lack of values and education in their respective social circles.
Children mature at different rates. It all depends on the environment they are brought up in. There are many adults who do not have clear perception of reality or the ability to measure consequences. The state has a clear rule that all murderers should be prosecuted as adults. In this case I would agree with that.
Nic are you saying you didn't know it was wrong to kill at 11?
I agree with your points of mitigating circumstances and access to a gun and control over his life.
britexpat,
He is an 11 year old, for god sake.
Yes he did a terrible thing and yes he must be punished but it must not be forgotten that he is a child.
Please inform yourself on the difference between an 11 year old brain and a full matured brain: the maturity, the perception of reality, the ability to measure consequences, the ability to measure seriousness of a situation, etc, etc, etc...
An 11 year old does not have completely developed brains and that is why they should be treated and in this case prosecuted as a child!
A child is never an adult. A child behaves as per his education and as per the parent’s degree of coaching.
The parents here have their share of responsibility on this tragic act!
Who facilitated the access to the gun and in this case it was actually the kids’ personal weapon. Was the kid responsible to have this gun? Is he independent and in total control of his life?
No, he sure had someone in charge of his education and responsible to make sure he didn’t have access to guns!!!!!
I couldn't agree with you more.. The parents need to take their responsibility seriously and provide a proper upbringing for their offspring.
However, does this mean that a child cannot be held accountable for deeds such as murder...
britexpat, by the time that we start drilling through all these elements we risk making the same mistakes of biasing ourselves simply because this looks as a terrible crime, which in fact is.
That is not the point... children should be raised, educated and constantly supervised by their parents. We need to hold ourselves responsibles for their actions. I don't question that this kid could well be pure evil, but are we saying that he was born with evil in his bloodstream? Come on! Where is our responsibility as parents?
If you read the various articles - he calmly took the gun, shot the woman and then went off to school. I don't think that this is "spur of the moment"
No, the kid will and should be treated as a minor and then we can find out what happened to him, what kind of education he had, who was responsible of screwing this youngster's life that made him become a murderer. After this, we can trial those who are responsible AS ADULTS.
It could be said in children’s defence; why are they allowed to view these violent graphic images?
Is that not down to lack of parental control?
Most games are age rated, television channels can be blocked and computers do have parental control features.
If our children are not policed by us parents and consequently what they are allowed to see and play with –that is not the child’s fault.
Some of you are saying that these children know what they are doing and are very much aware of their actions.
I believe media plays a primary role on this. Children tends to follow what they do on tv or what they see on the news. Therefore i can say that they are NOT as aware as you think they are with what they're doing. Innocent as they are, they should be given a trial according to the laws by the government and according to the rights they are given.
The child should be tried as an adult, he knew what he was doing. He had a reason and he didn't act on an impulse so he exactly knew what he was doing.
I came from a broken family too,and it's never a reasonable reason to kill somebody,the father of the kid should have let the kid understand that things will never go the way he wants it,teach the child to accept things.
Humans of any age are inclined to do a crime. He's 11 but he knew what he did,he has reasons for doing it,he knows what are the consequences of killing (11-year olds watch news,of course they understand what are the punishments for doing a crime).It's just that his reasons might not be reasonable to us and we might think it's juvenile but we don't know what the kid is going thru,he must be agonizing bec.of family brokeness which persuade him to do such an act. The kid was emotionally unstable when he killed the lady which will always be unfair to the family of the victim,but life goes like this. There are many cases of murder for reasons that we think it's not reasonable enough but we can't do anything,we can't bring the decease person to life,all we have to do is pray for justice. The kid should be punished,it's not like breaking a glass and then everything would be ok by saying sorry.Let the judge weigh things.
It is very sad that sometimes the unthinkable happens and a child murders. Some come from ‘normal’ backgrounds most are from trouble ones.
It shocks us - children are supposed to be innocent, with no desire to kill and without malice. But sadly we know this is not the case in some children.
Working with children I can say- children reveal an awful lot about home circumstances in school through play and art. They tell us; not because we are nosey but simply because their home life is considered normal to them. Often we can build up a picture and we know it to be a sad abusive life.
In the UK are hands are tied – before we can ask for guidance from child protection agencies; we have to inform the parents of our intentions. Nine out of ten times the family moves- another sad, lonely child lost. So does this atmosphere breed children who kill?
I think it does; you meet any emotionally damaged child and they lack boundaries and do not know acceptable behaviour. Infants are egocentric but by the age of ten the child should have grown out of this and be mature enough to be know the difference between right and wrong; should be responsible for his well-being and that of others. If he does not have these core values he is emotionally backward and may be lost for good.
I do not think children are born evil; I see it as by product of a dreadful home life.
Should the children be tried in an adult court?
Juvenile courts are there not to ‘punish’ they are there to shield the child from their actions and rehabilitate them. Adult courts punish.
Should a child be punished because he has grown into a ‘monster’ through being treated badly or should he be treated and shown there is another path.
I would like to see a change in child protection laws and get these children protected firstly against themselves and the cycle of violence and destruction they think is normal and also a court that does shield a child but a sentence is given that matches the child’s crime. I think this is a pipe dream though.
that's why the aggravating circumstances are taken into consideration. The only argument here is that in Juvenile justice system, penalty for such action is very much different in the adult version!
Ice Maiden has a point. They will know and acknowledge the difference between right and wrong however may not understand the consequences of their actions.
Saying that though, a lot of adults also don't appreciate the consequences of their actions i.e. beating my partner may make them upset, not respect me.
Some things don't change over time and have to be learnt practically. This is also why in most countries ignorance of the law cannot be used as an excuse. Hhhmmnn, good topic Brit.
Juvenile crimes. If the difference in punishments for adults and juvenile is not that large, nothing to argue about. Many things already influenced a child's behavior. If they incorporate this to any review of the juvenile justice system, then maybe, all the arguments regarding whether to try as adult or juvenile will be academic!
We have to take into account that children have considerably fewer rights than adults. Why? Because society has decided that children are not emotionally mature enough. So why should they be held to the same standard as someone who does possess those rights and is supposedly mature enough? I'm not saying that children should go unpunished. They should just be held to a standard based on what rights they have.
By eleven you are old enough to understand what killing someone means. But not the consequences. So he should be tried as a juvenile.
What is it with kids nowadays. I've noticed that although they have more awareness of what is happening around them, they lack the mental maturity to handle difficult situations.
lol
:) good to have you back dude,stay.
Public insult! This is why i hate to log in QL !! :X
How much can a 11 year old really "know" about anything? At that age, I thought not doing my homework was a crime as well as murder. Adults can differentiate the seriousness between the two; 11 year olds, not so much.
.
Lots of difference buddy, you will know when you turn 18
Why? The 11 year old one 'knew' what he did and is not aware of the so called penal codes..
Even i know murder is a crime and even I'm unaware of the laws.
What is the bl00dy difference?
Rms NO, its not an excuse when you are grown up, but it is when you were 11.
dejavu, Is this an old article?
I remember...I wanted to kill few ppl when I was 11..I was very possessive about my mother..maybe I didn’t have access to any tool for killing..:)
rMs_000,
you totally missed my point.
probably lost in translation!
I'm unaware of the IPC's at this point of stage as well! Does that mean i can kill you?
I actually think the father has some responsibility on the son's action: perhaps negligence, broken marriage, education and access to guns...
did he do it out of his own liking? If so, then he needs to face the consequences of being a killer, kid or not.
11 year old. Should be treated juvenile.
rms - agree that unawareness of law is not an excuse, but at 11 were you aware of all the penal codes of the Indian judiciary?
Though the kids grow up, i dont think any parents will allow their kids to watch adult materials online with permission. May be, but not in our culture.
If he 'knew' what he was doing, then its simply a crime regardless the consequences. Even adults commit such crimes ignoring the consequences. There are many examples! Ignorance of law is inevitable.
brit,
If you consider an 11 year old to be an adult, then allow your 11 year old kid to access with no restrictions, all adult material on line, movies, etc...
probably then, you'll realize that 11 year olds have not yet fully developed their brains and therefore cannot be compared with an adult!
Yes he knew what he was doing, but he knew it in an 11 year old way of knowing it!
I would've taken these key phrases into consideration
1. "calculated actions"
2. "knew what he was doing"
On that basis more adult than juve. :(
brit..he knew what he was doing... but he would have not thought of the consequences...
Yes, I am.
To be honest, I don't know how I would feel if my kid did the same. I was looking at it from the perspective of the person who lost a loved one and an unborn child.
However, in this case, the child took calculated actions and so knew what he was doing.
britexpat,
are you a father?????
if yes, you should know better that the "know" of a 11 year old is not quite the same as the "know" of an adult!
Clarification - Kids charged with murder in Pennsylvania are "automatically" considered adults and only a judge's decision can move the trial to juvenile court.
So , the question is - Is this right..
I am probably in a minority, but I believe an 11 year old knows what he is doing and should be treated as an adult..
Should be treated as juvenile case....
He will be tried as a minor. He is just 11.
Yep law says he is a minor so he should be tried as one.
My bad.. Should have posted something about love..
What a topic to start the day. :-(