Now there is no way out as many many things have been moving in the other demension now. They have to be controlled by force for the time being.
The only way to find a way is that at least taliban resort to peace again elimintaing the foreign elements from within them selves. This can only happen if the fighting stops at soe point and the Afgahistan is in the hands of their people only, both conditions need to be satisfied simultaneously.
it was decided 7 years ago that what ever happen in country, Govt will support the USA... whats happening now its a frustration... people of Pakistan wants to get rid of old policies... they want change...respect... but present PPP Govt keep following the same lines... and i don't have any hope that there will be any change until 4-Nov 2008...
Salmamohd actually the reason for their not moving out is becasue their paernts are getting very protective for their daughters or sometimes their girls dont want to move out of the parent's house even.
If their daugther is educated and good looking to a reasoable extent plus they are financially just okay they are confident that they will find some good man from the same city for their daughter so inc ase they both earn then their life is very good. Also the the factor you explained is there. To live and work in USA for long it is must that you have to marry an American Girl :-),not for visa purpose but to start the family life (although i did not as i was hopeful from Pakistan).
The mistake was there in the begining. Let me give you a example of the military tactics. Where ever you find a stiff resistance in battefield and you have your best forces with you just bybass that location without having a head to head coliision with the strong resistance. One of the famous general like Romel excercised this tact and stunned the enemy (just an example) with less might. If you dont do it then the the sharp barb will get blunted. Same is the case once you get very diffcult question in the exams (my professor use to put), bypass it in the beginging come to it afterwards and do your best you will get the best grade and will solve it.
In the begining if all the objectives against negative part of forces there could had been achieved without having the direct conflict or a direct war by just reaching there supply lines and driving them out by starving then it was a biggest achievement. That is what the Pakistan had proposed.
look at the media, whatever is happening regarding WAR ON TERROR, It's the religeon that goes to the trial stand....... and that lead to the fragmentation of the society. Pakistani nation can not stand united to face the internal or external threat for the sake of nationalism or any other ism...............
Its all apart of game...they just doing the same stuff for some reasons...well about the discussion between Mira N Adnan...i would say that Mira u had been to Lahore,Islamabad & Pindi but Dear these r da best places of Pakistan where u don find anything like what u have said...or the other thing can be that the fanilies u visited & u lived with belonged to Village & had just shifted...ppl b4 used to get into stuffs like caste n all but now its just nothing....even im frm a different caste n my hubby is from different but we never had n e probs in getting married ...Adnan wat ur sayin about girls that they don prefer to move out of their country is also due to some reason...mostly Paki boys move out to USA n get married their but later for their parents sake dey get married to a paki gal so this makes a paki girl think twice....
lolz....i was completely out of the topic...
According to the latest update 60 dead & 200 injured:(
I think the debatable question is that how pakistan reach upto this point?.... what are the mistakes Pakistani leadership or pakistan as a nation in past have made?.... If there were mistakes... is Pakistan as a nation, is ready to accept the wrongdoings of past and ready to review ??
There was horrfic stuff in the truck including aliminuim which melts and then produces fire, arterily shells, mortars and explosives.
It was all unbelievable producing an enourmous shock wave. Marriot there is located on a mojor road but i think the trucks are now not allowed there any more.
Mira This forum is for discussion only and you should discuss if you want.
Who is Ayeshe Akram wokring with "The STAR" living in Canada and having her eyes still open in Pakistan?. Is the lady like you who probably wanted to make some impact from her essay or who claimed to know Pakistan like you by just giving a false statement or getting her flight changed in Pakistan.
The essay also explains something mileading. I was working in USA for a year and was well settled in all reagards after completing my education. My family tried a lot to find a good suitable wife but the reason they got from all the good families were that they dont want to send their daughter abroad especially to USA as it is very far. I am still single :-) even though i am better settled than in i was in USA and i have better job than all of my counter parts americans there.
I tell you that i came to know readily from your statements that you did not know Pakistan. I was right. You have stated falsly by taking support of any artical you find on the net. This is i wanted to prove. Probably you are also here in some better oppurtunity than in USA :-) .
xray, i know ground reality is not in the favour of pakistan as far as economic and social issues are concernedbut when when there is a will there is a way.I must say in this forum now to all of u this is the time that world should be united and we should take stand against terrorism. we condemn this and can't be tolerated anymore.......
Group called Fidayeen-e-Islam claims responsibility for the attack....
This is the interesting part: "It also said that some 250 US marines had been killed in the attack, together with many officials from Nato and other countries involved in attacks on Muslim interests in Pakistan and Afghanistan. "
Note the marines seen to be offloading steel boxes into the MArriot:
I would of course exercise some caution on the above as details are still sketchy. Still waiting for the video of the actual explosion taking place- even though it is claimed the explosion broke the cameras but nonetheless the cctv would still have captured the explosion.
Zadari is more loyal to the British whilst Nawaz is an american boy. US detonates the explosion to push pakistan public opinion into supporting and pressurising Zadari govt into fighting 'militants' in FATA areas. Possibly, the British tipped Zardari off in not going to the Marriot. Zardari stopped off in London, to get debriefed, before heading to the US.
Also why were the US Marines off loading metal containers into the Marriot by passing security a few days before? Eyewitness reports state that they saw a white US embassy van pull up and the US marines off loading the metal containers- not going through normal checks.
Why is there no video footage of the actual explosion from the truck?
i have checked the http://www.thestar.c... and didn't find something unusual because when people are being killed in blasts everyday then who wants to live in such a place... Everybody will try to escape...
Apology accepted. But I would suggest that you refrain from calling people racists in any capacity, especially when they are showing you that they take a sincere interest in your nation and people.
What? Zhatash are you joking? Adnan asked me if I was from a sub-continent background and I am not...what response would you prefer? Did you read the entire post?
Well I think I am finished with this thread. Thank you Britexpat for posting this forum topic.
Adnan, I am not going to engage you, debate you, or prove myself to you. I came on here to express my condolencence to the Pakistani people. What gain would I have to fib about visiting the area?
No, I do not have one ounce of Sub-continent blood in me. Just a fellow human with human compassion.
adnan, also before you begin to make baseless claims assuming that everyone from the West is "ignorant" maybe you should read this article. Then you may find that a lot of the content that you post about your home country is actually incorrect.
Mira well i dont agree with you as i lived my major part of life there, it is not a matter of pride. Quoting a single family or some falimies is not a true refection. We dont go for caste in selecting the spouses or keeping a friendly relations ships in 90% cases but YES the religion counts in selction of spuses and financial status as well. The fact is that no educated good looking girl from there from a reasoably good family wants to leave Pakistan and get married abroad (90% girls).
If you have visited all those cities then tell me which places you visited specifically in Lahore and where you lived approximately, it is so interesting a city with every facility. What i get from you is that you are not correct in putting up your comment and my doubt about your claim is there.
Are you an indian (Indian American) or pakistani (Paki American) by origin?.
muddling through the crises that is what is happening.Challenges whether external or internal need a head on approach. How can a country which is 7 thousand miles away have shared interest.we have to produce our own indigenous spectecles to analyze the problem................
I really think Britexpat's statement is one for people to reflect on. The problem within Pakistan is exactly that..."within" Pakistan. For those who genuinely want to observe productive change, you can't keep blaming outside influences, but change what you can control.
Mira up to some extent you are right. cast systm exist in Pakistan. Pakistan is a society divided on every available basis, ethinic, linguistic, religeos school of thoughts etc. when a society flourish it flourish in all direction and when it decline it decline in all direction.
umm i think Mira is right.. there is caste system in Pakistan but one should not take it seriousely.. you know there are several reasons the system for example during elections our politicians try to promote as much as possible the caste simply because they will get vote without having any extraordinary qualities and abilities...
What you have to ask is "Why the people of Pakistan can follow a leader based abroad and carrying a foreign passport?"
The internal bombings are indeed to do with the Afghan conflict in an "indirect way".. many people see Pakistan as a lackey of the west. You keep mentioning foreign fighters, but thus far, the Pakistani government has not "Shown" and real evidence that they exist in Pakistan
I really don't feel I can discuss anything with you Adnan. It seems you are standing up for cultural pride rather than discussing key issues and facts. Every Pakistani I know, forget just in Pakistan, follows the rules to the caste system religiously. It may have been a Hindu theme, but regardless it is well ingrained in Pakistani culture.
My Pakistani friends in the west had explained that when Pakistanis are in mixed gatherings they deny the caste system's existence, but when Pakistanis are together they use the caste system to select their friends, spouses, deem who is worthy of respect, etc.
My apologies Adnan, but after being to your country, speaking with locals, and staying with several families, the "no-caste" veil was removed. All of them spoke about it comfortably, there was no shame in it because they were not dealing with the stigmas that other nations have towards the caste system. They were in their own countries with their own beliefs and didn't feel the need to mask them.
Karachi problem is something else , it is not as intense and it is not a problem now. Why MQM leader is given refuge in Britain?. These thing going on in Pakistan has nothing to do with India or other neighbours. It has all to do with the Afghan conflict and every one knows it.
We have not heard anything from Karachi, i dont know where those Karachi people live. KArachi is a big city and it is always diffcult to control the situations in big cities.
Mira has mentioned that there is a caste system in Pakistan. I have heard it for the very first time. She seems to be ignorant about it. No one asks about the caste in Pakistan becasue we are a muslim nation, i dont know about India and cant comment.
Mira give details that in Pakistan which city and which place in that city you had visited so that we may know whether you actually visited Pakistan or not because something seems totally new to me?
Pakistanis have to stop "blaming others".. Pakistan has no clear policy towards its neighbours, including Afghanistan, Turkey, Iran and of course India.
The leaders "manipulate" the public at their whim. You have the leader of the MQM sitting in London. Bhutto and Zardari were in Dubai. Sharif was in Saudi Arabia. They come and go as they please.
As far as the Middle Class is concerned. I have a few friends from Karachi. From what they say, the law and order situation is terrible. People getting shot over a mobile phone.
Lastly, the main problem is illiteracy. Pakistan has one of the lowest ligteracy rates in the World..
Strange--this is one of the most heavily guarded areas in Pakistan and somehow and truck bomb manages to get through!
Something not quite right with this one especially when the pak government and the americans want to turn pak public opinion against the 'militants' and spark an all out offensive by the pak army.
Stranger still pak president is on his way to the US at a time like this
some one on another website posted a good root cause
Every relative of a civilian killed in Iraq, Afghanstan, Palestine, and Pakistan is a potential recruit for the Taliban and/or Al Quida.
The US foreign policy is a terrorist production operation. Why don't they understand this ???? When US foreign policy is mis-guided, the world is set on fire.
BritExpat, Pakistan was very peaceful before these all events. The Pakistan had no internal problems, all we have to coup up is to tame down those people and dont fight our forces in Pakistan. Stop their operations from within Pakistan against any country. I hope you can understand that. No country can think of using Nuclear weapons, it is only a deterence.
Mira which city have you visited in Pakistan, i have found every big city there not less than any other city in the world, Yes the no of poor people may be more but all things are much cheaper as well.
I have been in USA and i can tell you that the middle class there is suffering same. Pakistani US nationals always pose themselves too much different but they are also actually suffering from a sort of poverty that a middle class/upper middle class in USA faces. Lot of taxation there, if you have kids and you go for a good house you are under debt.
I remember that when I was in Unviersity of Colorado at Boulder campus there were some worker class living at a distance with me (Mexican American). I had one old desktop computer spare (although i was also financially very tight) i thought that i should give to the kids as i dont use it. When i gave it to those kids they were so happy to find it that they did not play outside all next day, although their father was keeping a new dodge Ram on loan.
In summary i found the struggle is the same there for middle class there as well ,just to earn and feed them selves by keeping up a certain living standard. The people there are under lot of loans.
I agree with Brit expat we need to change the strategy to negotiations since bombing would only create more sympathies and more people would be ready to commit such horrible acts.
Abt education levels and terrorism there was very intersting study published recently in one of teh newspapers.
Who Speaks for Islam?: What a Billion Muslims Really Think This book is the product of a mammoth, multi-year Gallup research study. Between 2001 and 2007, Gallup conducted tens of thousands of face-to-face interviews with residents of more than 35 nations that are predominantly Muslim or have substantial Muslim populations. The sample represents residents young and old, educated and illiterate, female and male, and from urban and rural settings.
Some outcomes:(they call it counterintuitive but the results dont sound so..)
- Who speaks for the West?: Muslims around the world do not see the West as monolithic. They criticise or celebrate countries based on their politics, not based on their culture or religion.
- Dream jobs: When asked to describe their dreams for the future, Muslims don't mention fighting in a jihad, but rather getting a better job.
- Radical rejection: Muslims and Americans are equally likely to reject attacks on civilians as morally unjustified.
- Religious moderates: Those who condone acts of terrorism are a minority and are no more likely to be religious than the rest of the population.
- Admiration of the West: What Muslims around the world say they most admire about the West is its technology and its democracy — the same two top responses given by Americans when asked the same question.
- Critique of the West: What Muslims around the world say they least admire about the West is its perceived moral decay and breakdown of traditional values — the same responses given by Americans when posed the same question.
What is happening in Pakistan is a direct result of the Government policies of last six decades Lack of visionary leadership, superficial approach towards the issues, lies everybody lies since the creation of Pakistan, very foundations of the country based on the wrong perception. Pakistan is descending into chaos.....
Honestly, think about it, when George Bush or Stephen Harper walk into a room, do they expect anyone to bow? No. These leaders view their fellow citizens as equals -well more or less-.
Whereas in countries such as Pakistan and India, where there is an active caste system, there is a natural belief that the upper class is and should be entitled and are better than everyone. The poor, keeping in mind are uneducated and in most cases illiterate, accept this and live by it.
I hope to not offend anyone, but this is just what I had noticed when I had visited. I am not a Pakistani, so I can't say I know all of the dynamics of the culture and/or government. But, no one, Pakistani or otherwise, can see what is happening in that country and refer to it as being anything other than exploitive.
Bhutto herself was educated at Oxford, certainly she was well acquainted with first-world dynamics and equality...only problem was, she was not interested.
Well said..Change needs to come from within.. However, it cannot happen as long as feudalism flourishes..
I recall a program by BBC a few years ago, showing the Bhutto lands. They stretched for miles and miles.. Whenever Bhutto got ourt of the Landcruiser, people actually kneeled down and bowed.. It was thought unsuitable to look Bhutto in the eyes..
Adnan..
Enough of blaming others for Pakistan's problems.. A country of 168 million people and nuclear weapons should be able to stand up on its own..
This is truly unfortunate. I had made a trip to Pakistan once and it was just shocking to observe the disparity between the wealthy caste and well just about everybody else. Apparently, 75% of the population (which is over 150 million) is illiterate.
The general population is so terribly exploited by the wealthy and powerful. Take a look at their present leader Zardari- known as Mr. ten percent and who has reportedly stolen over 1 billion dollars from Pakistan's treasury while his wife was in power.
For Pakistan change can only happen from within and they need some sincere leadership that would actually be interested in correcting the disparity between the rich and very poor and not just profiting from it.
It is indeed very sad and i felt depressed seeing that distruction that blast casued. Dont know who teaches them to kill the innocent poeple, the bombers are unsually teen agers whose minds are being washed out from the beginging to carry out such tasks. Some foreign elements brought the concept of suicide bombings so recently there.
We are not a vocal but a humble nation despite having a strong Army but we are really caught in a dilema this time.Manythings were mishandeled, i need not to explain in detail in the forums.
Lets not forget who the masterminds are. Arabs leaders should also take some responsiblity that their nationals are going to fight Jihad in other countries. Egypt is happy that Dr Zawari (what ever his name is) is in Tora Bora than in Cairo. And lets not forget the man himself if he is still around or alive OBL.
Yep correct about the neo-con of the USA try to escalate the war in Afganistan/Pakistan so they can justify their so called war on Terror.
Sad day for the Pakistanis Pray for the victims and their families
why dont you understand... this is not what you are looking... its purely a game... how many attacks after 9/11 happened in USA... how many people died in terrorist activities in USA...
We seem to interfere and screw up things even more.. The Afghanis are tribal and warlords. The Tribal areas of Pakistan have close links with them. Families cross borders regularly..
What have we actually achieved in the last two years ? Our soldiers with the latest armaments and traing haven't been able to do away with an enemy without AWACS, APACHES, A10 Tankbusters, Heavy armour or close air support..
Education is definitely a key issue.. However, culture also plays a major part..
Many are fed up of what they see as "outside interference" in their country..
My own opinion - We need to get our troops out of Afghanistan and let the Afghanis deal with their own problems.. I'd like to see how Karzai copes without uncle Sam..
complete sympathy for all..... i know what its like to live with this threat.....
PM many of the IRA had a great education... and Bill Clinton (who had a good education) gave a visitors visa to Sein Fein leader Gerry Adams who went to the USA to raise money for the IRA.
I remember thinking at the time that if the US ever had terrorists they would go mental if someone gave a visa to one of the leaders..... history proved me right.
it can be a tactic to show the world look how terrorists are blasting lives so must join the war against terrorism... an effective way to influence the upcoming election in USA...
and i am forth seeing some more unrest in Pakistan till the election in USA
those who did and doing ol those acts r cowards and dont hv any religion or faith ..doing it in a such a holly mnth..i saw saudi ambassador talking with media i think he was also in that hotel..but not sure if he was in there..
US raids on Taleban and al-Qaeda targets in Pakistani territory have caused outrage in Pakistan. And that has added to the loathing that some people there have long felt for the way that the US conducts itself on the world stage. And this is the answer.
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yeah news is authentic,airports across the country were put on full alert on thursday morning after threats that they could face attacks......
Thought I saw on Sky News that the Pakistan airports were closed around Islamabad due to terrorist threats.
I haven't checked the news recently so I may have it wrong, but they definitely said airports were closed to traffic.
Good job DaRuDe flew out yesterday, what?
Now there is no way out as many many things have been moving in the other demension now. They have to be controlled by force for the time being.
The only way to find a way is that at least taliban resort to peace again elimintaing the foreign elements from within them selves. This can only happen if the fighting stops at soe point and the Afgahistan is in the hands of their people only, both conditions need to be satisfied simultaneously.
When liberty is taken away by force it can be restored by force. When it is relinquished voluntarily by default it can never be recovered.
our nation is ready.. thats why they give vote for the change but now its upto our so called leaders...
it's a morass and sucking the whole nation.......there is a way out but everything has a price...Are we ready to pay the price...???
it was decided 7 years ago that what ever happen in country, Govt will support the USA... whats happening now its a frustration... people of Pakistan wants to get rid of old policies... they want change...respect... but present PPP Govt keep following the same lines... and i don't have any hope that there will be any change until 4-Nov 2008...
what is the way out?????
Salmamohd actually the reason for their not moving out is becasue their paernts are getting very protective for their daughters or sometimes their girls dont want to move out of the parent's house even.
If their daugther is educated and good looking to a reasoable extent plus they are financially just okay they are confident that they will find some good man from the same city for their daughter so inc ase they both earn then their life is very good. Also the the factor you explained is there. To live and work in USA for long it is must that you have to marry an American Girl :-),not for visa purpose but to start the family life (although i did not as i was hopeful from Pakistan).
I will now come to the topic in my next post.
The mistake was there in the begining. Let me give you a example of the military tactics. Where ever you find a stiff resistance in battefield and you have your best forces with you just bybass that location without having a head to head coliision with the strong resistance. One of the famous general like Romel excercised this tact and stunned the enemy (just an example) with less might. If you dont do it then the the sharp barb will get blunted. Same is the case once you get very diffcult question in the exams (my professor use to put), bypass it in the beginging come to it afterwards and do your best you will get the best grade and will solve it.
In the begining if all the objectives against negative part of forces there could had been achieved without having the direct conflict or a direct war by just reaching there supply lines and driving them out by starving then it was a biggest achievement. That is what the Pakistan had proposed.
lol...
Thanx adnan that u are coming to the point
look at the media, whatever is happening regarding WAR ON TERROR, It's the religeon that goes to the trial stand....... and that lead to the fragmentation of the society. Pakistani nation can not stand united to face the internal or external threat for the sake of nationalism or any other ism...............
No I am not suggesting that the creation of Pakistan was wrong.... Pakistan is a result of genius political endeavours..
Raison d'e'tat of Pakistan???? Fundamental questions about the state of Pakistan,Do we have answers???
I don't really know too much about the genesis, apart from that pakistan was supposed to be a "homeland" for the Muslims from India.
If you're suggesting that the formation of Pakistan was wrong, then that ofcourse is another discussion.. isn't it ?
that's right Britexpat off course in these areas pakistan made blunders and still going on.... but what about genesis of Pakistan?????
Its all apart of game...they just doing the same stuff for some reasons...well about the discussion between Mira N Adnan...i would say that Mira u had been to Lahore,Islamabad & Pindi but Dear these r da best places of Pakistan where u don find anything like what u have said...or the other thing can be that the fanilies u visited & u lived with belonged to Village & had just shifted...ppl b4 used to get into stuffs like caste n all but now its just nothing....even im frm a different caste n my hubby is from different but we never had n e probs in getting married ...Adnan wat ur sayin about girls that they don prefer to move out of their country is also due to some reason...mostly Paki boys move out to USA n get married their but later for their parents sake dey get married to a paki gal so this makes a paki girl think twice....
lolz....i was completely out of the topic...
According to the latest update 60 dead & 200 injured:(
Looking at history, Pakistans has made two fundamental mistakes.
1. Allowing feudalism to continue. As India did, the Feudal powers should have been taken and land re-distributed.
2. Not having a coherent foreign policy. Should have created a 'group" consisting of Pakistan, Turkey, Iran and afghanistan
I think the debatable question is that how pakistan reach upto this point?.... what are the mistakes Pakistani leadership or pakistan as a nation in past have made?.... If there were mistakes... is Pakistan as a nation, is ready to accept the wrongdoings of past and ready to review ??
There was horrfic stuff in the truck including aliminuim which melts and then produces fire, arterily shells, mortars and explosives.
It was all unbelievable producing an enourmous shock wave. Marriot there is located on a mojor road but i think the trucks are now not allowed there any more.
Mira This forum is for discussion only and you should discuss if you want.
Who is Ayeshe Akram wokring with "The STAR" living in Canada and having her eyes still open in Pakistan?. Is the lady like you who probably wanted to make some impact from her essay or who claimed to know Pakistan like you by just giving a false statement or getting her flight changed in Pakistan.
The essay also explains something mileading. I was working in USA for a year and was well settled in all reagards after completing my education. My family tried a lot to find a good suitable wife but the reason they got from all the good families were that they dont want to send their daughter abroad especially to USA as it is very far. I am still single :-) even though i am better settled than in i was in USA and i have better job than all of my counter parts americans there.
I tell you that i came to know readily from your statements that you did not know Pakistan. I was right. You have stated falsly by taking support of any artical you find on the net. This is i wanted to prove. Probably you are also here in some better oppurtunity than in USA :-) .
the owner of the hotel has categoricaly denied that zardari and the others were due to be at the hotel..
I think the Pakistani government is making excuses for their lack of security and intel..
The targets were foreigners
It was unfortunate like other killings of the innocents around the globe.
I think the problems with Muslims and the west who want to eliminate Muslims need to negotiate rather than fighting.
Otherwise they should be equally weaponised.
Here one half is coming up with all new weapons and and the other does not have.
We have to see this incident as a part of global resistance against American invasion.
xray, i know ground reality is not in the favour of pakistan as far as economic and social issues are concernedbut when when there is a will there is a way.I must say in this forum now to all of u this is the time that world should be united and we should take stand against terrorism. we condemn this and can't be tolerated anymore.......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7630024.stm
Group called Fidayeen-e-Islam claims responsibility for the attack....
This is the interesting part: "It also said that some 250 US marines had been killed in the attack, together with many officials from Nato and other countries involved in attacks on Muslim interests in Pakistan and Afghanistan. "
Note the marines seen to be offloading steel boxes into the MArriot:
http://www.daily.pk/politics/politicalnews/7422-what-was-mysterious-activity-going-on-in-the-marriott-hotel-islamabad-by-united-states-marines.html
-----
I would of course exercise some caution on the above as details are still sketchy. Still waiting for the video of the actual explosion taking place- even though it is claimed the explosion broke the cameras but nonetheless the cctv would still have captured the explosion.
Zadari is more loyal to the British whilst Nawaz is an american boy. US detonates the explosion to push pakistan public opinion into supporting and pressurising Zadari govt into fighting 'militants' in FATA areas. Possibly, the British tipped Zardari off in not going to the Marriot. Zardari stopped off in London, to get debriefed, before heading to the US.
lets start digging out the problem and its root causes...
our country economically has gone 2-3 years behind...with this situation who is going to invest there...
there are several footages but only was released to media...
Here is something interesting from the BBC:
-------------------------------------------
Pakistan leaders' 'narrow escape'
Pakistan's top leaders were to have been in the Islamabad Marriott hotel when it was bombed - but changed venue at the last minute, officials say.
Interior Ministry head Rehman Malik said the president, prime minister and military chiefs should have been there.
He told journalists "it would have been a great catastrophe" but did not say why dinner plans were changed.
A suicide bomb devastated the hotel on Saturday killing at least 53 people and wounding more than 266.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7628964.stm
------------------------------------------------------
So who tipped them off?
Also why were the US Marines off loading metal containers into the Marriot by passing security a few days before? Eyewitness reports state that they saw a white US embassy van pull up and the US marines off loading the metal containers- not going through normal checks.
Why is there no video footage of the actual explosion from the truck?
More to follow.
The article was in reference to Adnan's comment that 90% of Pakistani women prefer to stay in Pakistan than get married abroad.
i have checked the http://www.thestar.c... and didn't find something unusual because when people are being killed in blasts everyday then who wants to live in such a place... Everybody will try to escape...
Apology accepted. But I would suggest that you refrain from calling people racists in any capacity, especially when they are showing you that they take a sincere interest in your nation and people.
thanx
If it was not a racist statment then I am sorry...
hmm now I look crazy...where did zhatash's comment go?
What? Zhatash are you joking? Adnan asked me if I was from a sub-continent background and I am not...what response would you prefer? Did you read the entire post?
Well I think I am finished with this thread. Thank you Britexpat for posting this forum topic.
Adnan, I am not going to engage you, debate you, or prove myself to you. I came on here to express my condolencence to the Pakistani people. What gain would I have to fib about visiting the area?
No, I do not have one ounce of Sub-continent blood in me. Just a fellow human with human compassion.
adnan, also before you begin to make baseless claims assuming that everyone from the West is "ignorant" maybe you should read this article. Then you may find that a lot of the content that you post about your home country is actually incorrect.
http://www.thestar.com/article/502024
adnanmzfr exactly tell me where have you lived major part of your life...
Self-righteous society............No place for critique.
Are you an indian (Indian American) or pakistani (Paki American) by origin?. ...... That approach is the problem area..........
Mira well i dont agree with you as i lived my major part of life there, it is not a matter of pride. Quoting a single family or some falimies is not a true refection. We dont go for caste in selecting the spouses or keeping a friendly relations ships in 90% cases but YES the religion counts in selction of spuses and financial status as well. The fact is that no educated good looking girl from there from a reasoably good family wants to leave Pakistan and get married abroad (90% girls).
If you have visited all those cities then tell me which places you visited specifically in Lahore and where you lived approximately, it is so interesting a city with every facility. What i get from you is that you are not correct in putting up your comment and my doubt about your claim is there.
Are you an indian (Indian American) or pakistani (Paki American) by origin?.
How can anyone treat a patient who is not ready to accept that he is sick. Blaming to the others is very easy.
muddling through the crises that is what is happening.Challenges whether external or internal need a head on approach. How can a country which is 7 thousand miles away have shared interest.we have to produce our own indigenous spectecles to analyze the problem................
Pakistani Govt until now could not show foreigners it knows very well that for whom and why fighting...
they cant afford it...
I really think Britexpat's statement is one for people to reflect on. The problem within Pakistan is exactly that..."within" Pakistan. For those who genuinely want to observe productive change, you can't keep blaming outside influences, but change what you can control.
Mira up to some extent you are right. cast systm exist in Pakistan. Pakistan is a society divided on every available basis, ethinic, linguistic, religeos school of thoughts etc. when a society flourish it flourish in all direction and when it decline it decline in all direction.
here i come into discussion : )
umm i think Mira is right.. there is caste system in Pakistan but one should not take it seriousely.. you know there are several reasons the system for example during elections our politicians try to promote as much as possible the caste simply because they will get vote without having any extraordinary qualities and abilities...
What you have to ask is "Why the people of Pakistan can follow a leader based abroad and carrying a foreign passport?"
The internal bombings are indeed to do with the Afghan conflict in an "indirect way".. many people see Pakistan as a lackey of the west. You keep mentioning foreign fighters, but thus far, the Pakistani government has not "Shown" and real evidence that they exist in Pakistan
Lahore, Islamabad and Pindi.
I really don't feel I can discuss anything with you Adnan. It seems you are standing up for cultural pride rather than discussing key issues and facts. Every Pakistani I know, forget just in Pakistan, follows the rules to the caste system religiously. It may have been a Hindu theme, but regardless it is well ingrained in Pakistani culture.
My Pakistani friends in the west had explained that when Pakistanis are in mixed gatherings they deny the caste system's existence, but when Pakistanis are together they use the caste system to select their friends, spouses, deem who is worthy of respect, etc.
My apologies Adnan, but after being to your country, speaking with locals, and staying with several families, the "no-caste" veil was removed. All of them spoke about it comfortably, there was no shame in it because they were not dealing with the stigmas that other nations have towards the caste system. They were in their own countries with their own beliefs and didn't feel the need to mask them.
:( " No Comments " :(
Disgusting act by Cowards !!! :(
Karachi problem is something else , it is not as intense and it is not a problem now. Why MQM leader is given refuge in Britain?. These thing going on in Pakistan has nothing to do with India or other neighbours. It has all to do with the Afghan conflict and every one knows it.
We have not heard anything from Karachi, i dont know where those Karachi people live. KArachi is a big city and it is always diffcult to control the situations in big cities.
Mira has mentioned that there is a caste system in Pakistan. I have heard it for the very first time. She seems to be ignorant about it. No one asks about the caste in Pakistan becasue we are a muslim nation, i dont know about India and cant comment.
Mira give details that in Pakistan which city and which place in that city you had visited so that we may know whether you actually visited Pakistan or not because something seems totally new to me?
If litracy is the criterion then what is happening in Srilanka................
lol, britexpat.
I believe that in many instances , literacy is the ability to be able to write one's name..
and an interesting detail, brit:
illiteracy rate total: 49,9 %
male: 63 %
female: 36 %
Source: CIA World Factbook 2008
unfortunately you are right...
Pakistanis have to stop "blaming others".. Pakistan has no clear policy towards its neighbours, including Afghanistan, Turkey, Iran and of course India.
The leaders "manipulate" the public at their whim. You have the leader of the MQM sitting in London. Bhutto and Zardari were in Dubai. Sharif was in Saudi Arabia. They come and go as they please.
As far as the Middle Class is concerned. I have a few friends from Karachi. From what they say, the law and order situation is terrible. People getting shot over a mobile phone.
Lastly, the main problem is illiteracy. Pakistan has one of the lowest ligteracy rates in the World..
Strange--this is one of the most heavily guarded areas in Pakistan and somehow and truck bomb manages to get through!
Something not quite right with this one especially when the pak government and the americans want to turn pak public opinion against the 'militants' and spark an all out offensive by the pak army.
Stranger still pak president is on his way to the US at a time like this
some one on another website posted a good root cause
Every relative of a civilian killed in Iraq, Afghanstan, Palestine, and Pakistan is a potential recruit for the Taliban and/or Al Quida.
The US foreign policy is a terrorist production operation. Why don't they understand this ???? When US foreign policy is mis-guided, the world is set on fire.
adnanmzfr no need to tell all these things... the people you are trying to explain situation, they know very well but just have close their eyes...
watch this video taken from a CCTV before the blast
very scary ...
[img_assist|nid=53652|title=|desc=|link=none|align=center|width=|height=0]
BritExpat, Pakistan was very peaceful before these all events. The Pakistan had no internal problems, all we have to coup up is to tame down those people and dont fight our forces in Pakistan. Stop their operations from within Pakistan against any country. I hope you can understand that. No country can think of using Nuclear weapons, it is only a deterence.
Mira which city have you visited in Pakistan, i have found every big city there not less than any other city in the world, Yes the no of poor people may be more but all things are much cheaper as well.
I have been in USA and i can tell you that the middle class there is suffering same. Pakistani US nationals always pose themselves too much different but they are also actually suffering from a sort of poverty that a middle class/upper middle class in USA faces. Lot of taxation there, if you have kids and you go for a good house you are under debt.
I remember that when I was in Unviersity of Colorado at Boulder campus there were some worker class living at a distance with me (Mexican American). I had one old desktop computer spare (although i was also financially very tight) i thought that i should give to the kids as i dont use it. When i gave it to those kids they were so happy to find it that they did not play outside all next day, although their father was keeping a new dodge Ram on loan.
In summary i found the struggle is the same there for middle class there as well ,just to earn and feed them selves by keeping up a certain living standard. The people there are under lot of loans.
Czech Republic Ambassador died in the blast...
Its so SAD, Let us all pray for the victims.
I agree with Brit expat we need to change the strategy to negotiations since bombing would only create more sympathies and more people would be ready to commit such horrible acts.
One who hasn't taken risks hasn't lived
It's so sad. So far 52 dead ...
May the injured be health soon. and the dead get mercy from God. insha allah.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Abt education levels and terrorism there was very intersting study published recently in one of teh newspapers.
Who Speaks for Islam?: What a Billion Muslims Really Think This book is the product of a mammoth, multi-year Gallup research study. Between 2001 and 2007, Gallup conducted tens of thousands of face-to-face interviews with residents of more than 35 nations that are predominantly Muslim or have substantial Muslim populations. The sample represents residents young and old, educated and illiterate, female and male, and from urban and rural settings.
Some outcomes:(they call it counterintuitive but the results dont sound so..)
- Who speaks for the West?: Muslims around the world do not see the West as monolithic. They criticise or celebrate countries based on their politics, not based on their culture or religion.
- Dream jobs: When asked to describe their dreams for the future, Muslims don't mention fighting in a jihad, but rather getting a better job.
- Radical rejection: Muslims and Americans are equally likely to reject attacks on civilians as morally unjustified.
- Religious moderates: Those who condone acts of terrorism are a minority and are no more likely to be religious than the rest of the population.
- Admiration of the West: What Muslims around the world say they most admire about the West is its technology and its democracy — the same two top responses given by Americans when asked the same question.
- Critique of the West: What Muslims around the world say they least admire about the West is its perceived moral decay and breakdown of traditional values — the same responses given by Americans when posed the same question.
Chk out...
http://archive.gulfnews.com/nation/Heritage_and_Culture/10242738.html
At the end of our life our questions are simple: Did I live fully? Did I love well?
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
What is happening in Pakistan is a direct result of the Government policies of last six decades Lack of visionary leadership, superficial approach towards the issues, lies everybody lies since the creation of Pakistan, very foundations of the country based on the wrong perception. Pakistan is descending into chaos.....
May Allah help us all, what a shame
not liking all the bombings around.. its like everyday i hear about it.. very very sad
rea;;y really v sad
very true.
Bhutto, like many before her used her western education to endear herself to the west, yet continued to exploit her peoples at home..
Honestly, think about it, when George Bush or Stephen Harper walk into a room, do they expect anyone to bow? No. These leaders view their fellow citizens as equals -well more or less-.
Whereas in countries such as Pakistan and India, where there is an active caste system, there is a natural belief that the upper class is and should be entitled and are better than everyone. The poor, keeping in mind are uneducated and in most cases illiterate, accept this and live by it.
I hope to not offend anyone, but this is just what I had noticed when I had visited. I am not a Pakistani, so I can't say I know all of the dynamics of the culture and/or government. But, no one, Pakistani or otherwise, can see what is happening in that country and refer to it as being anything other than exploitive.
Bhutto herself was educated at Oxford, certainly she was well acquainted with first-world dynamics and equality...only problem was, she was not interested.
sad..60 of them lost lives.
Well said..Change needs to come from within.. However, it cannot happen as long as feudalism flourishes..
I recall a program by BBC a few years ago, showing the Bhutto lands. They stretched for miles and miles.. Whenever Bhutto got ourt of the Landcruiser, people actually kneeled down and bowed.. It was thought unsuitable to look Bhutto in the eyes..
Adnan..
Enough of blaming others for Pakistan's problems.. A country of 168 million people and nuclear weapons should be able to stand up on its own..
This is truly unfortunate. I had made a trip to Pakistan once and it was just shocking to observe the disparity between the wealthy caste and well just about everybody else. Apparently, 75% of the population (which is over 150 million) is illiterate.
The general population is so terribly exploited by the wealthy and powerful. Take a look at their present leader Zardari- known as Mr. ten percent and who has reportedly stolen over 1 billion dollars from Pakistan's treasury while his wife was in power.
For Pakistan change can only happen from within and they need some sincere leadership that would actually be interested in correcting the disparity between the rich and very poor and not just profiting from it.
It is indeed very sad and i felt depressed seeing that distruction that blast casued. Dont know who teaches them to kill the innocent poeple, the bombers are unsually teen agers whose minds are being washed out from the beginging to carry out such tasks. Some foreign elements brought the concept of suicide bombings so recently there.
We are not a vocal but a humble nation despite having a strong Army but we are really caught in a dilema this time.Manythings were mishandeled, i need not to explain in detail in the forums.
up till now 40 died and 140 injured.. so sad..
Lets not forget who the masterminds are. Arabs leaders should also take some responsiblity that their nationals are going to fight Jihad in other countries. Egypt is happy that Dr Zawari (what ever his name is) is in Tora Bora than in Cairo. And lets not forget the man himself if he is still around or alive OBL.
Yep correct about the neo-con of the USA try to escalate the war in Afganistan/Pakistan so they can justify their so called war on Terror.
Sad day for the Pakistanis Pray for the victims and their families
-----------------
HE WHO DARES WINS
why dont you understand... this is not what you are looking... its purely a game... how many attacks after 9/11 happened in USA... how many people died in terrorist activities in USA...
WHY?
We seem to interfere and screw up things even more.. The Afghanis are tribal and warlords. The Tribal areas of Pakistan have close links with them. Families cross borders regularly..
What have we actually achieved in the last two years ? Our soldiers with the latest armaments and traing haven't been able to do away with an enemy without AWACS, APACHES, A10 Tankbusters, Heavy armour or close air support..
Don't you think a new approach is called for ?
YEP no correlation btw education and terrorism
those who bombed the London Underground were very educated people..... didn't stop them..
ironically if i recall correctly if the UK hadn't granted asylum to the Somali he would have never been in a position to blow up the hand that fed him
the 9th Sept bombers were well educated....
Lots of uneducated people live peaceful lives.
Education is definitely a key issue.. However, culture also plays a major part..
Many are fed up of what they see as "outside interference" in their country..
My own opinion - We need to get our troops out of Afghanistan and let the Afghanis deal with their own problems.. I'd like to see how Karzai copes without uncle Sam..
complete sympathy for all..... i know what its like to live with this threat.....
PM many of the IRA had a great education... and Bill Clinton (who had a good education) gave a visitors visa to Sein Fein leader Gerry Adams who went to the USA to raise money for the IRA.
I remember thinking at the time that if the US ever had terrorists they would go mental if someone gave a visa to one of the leaders..... history proved me right.
it can be a tactic to show the world look how terrorists are blasting lives so must join the war against terrorism... an effective way to influence the upcoming election in USA...
and i am forth seeing some more unrest in Pakistan till the election in USA
Perhaps the answer is to take the approach we took with the IRA... Negotiation, rather than antagonism..
Maybe a similar end as in Korea and Vietnam.
Yes. Seems like a downward spiral. I cannot see any end to it, can you?
Are you asking as a US citizen, southland, or as a human being?
My innocent brethren. Please enlighten us on a proper course of action (or inaction as it were).
Let's see how the new government cope!
War looking for peace,
is like fornication looking for virginity.
incredible... so sad
i know several of islamabad marriott staff... i dont know how many have survived but the hotel is almost completely destroyed.. heartbreaking..
i pray for the friends i left behind and to all people of Pakistan in this very tragic time
**Sic dixit Zarathustra**
brit, I don't wanna be in his shoes.
those who did and doing ol those acts r cowards and dont hv any religion or faith ..doing it in a such a holly mnth..i saw saudi ambassador talking with media i think he was also in that hotel..but not sure if he was in there..
lets us all pray for the victims..
As always, the innocents get caught up in this..
It will be interesting how the drama unfolds now.. Zardari has to keep his US bosses happy, whilst appeasing the public also..
yeah.. watching it on tv.. the carpark is totally gutted. every single car looks like its been hit with a rocket launcher.
US raids on Taleban and al-Qaeda targets in Pakistani territory have caused outrage in Pakistan. And that has added to the loathing that some people there have long felt for the way that the US conducts itself on the world stage. And this is the answer.
I think the US is opening a new frontier in Pakistan. Just a thought.
shameful act by cowards.....
my heart is with families of victims