The Hijab in sports

if i'm not mistaken, the topic was about the choice of wearing hijab.

But some people impose their opinions on others where it is neither needed nor welcomed. As the old saying goes: "Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one and some of them stink"

who can express our views and opinions and speech, and unfortunately some people thinks that when some one expresses his/her opinion is like you have to do or a must do thing.

people must always remember that an opinion is not a force to do things.

SA, who are we to judge or decide what women can do, or want to do. They have minds of their own and can actually use them to think!

We are all of those things - but should a woman want to participate in a sport she should be allowed to do so.What she does in a sporting arena will not affect how she is a mother or a wife - that is just another part of her life. 

Britexpat if we assume that women in nature are the symbol of softness and kindness and careness why some people want women to loose these things?

Ofcourse. That is the way it should be..I just wonder which sports you feel are not suitable for women.. 

but it is not in line with my opinion, and as they the difference in opinion should not prevent us from communication.

True, brit. Make sure your Cuban Lady doesn't read this!

Katarina Witt would have looked great even in an Abaya and scarf :O)

Veil or not. It is quite boring to see the girls creeping around the 5 m mark in pole vault jump, while Sergej Bubka already mastered 6.15 meters. However, Yelena Isinbayeva is a sexy woman! And watching her is as good and entertaining as seeing Bubka over 6 meters. You all forgot: sports is a business, a show business!

Personaly I believe that ALL sports are OK for women. I can just picture my Cuban Shotputter in the circle, chalked up, waiting to throw :O)

It all depends on the Muslim woman, but I am sure we all agree that sports are ok for women and some are not.

At the end of the day, the Sports bodies have to decide what is allowed and what is not - and Muslim girls have to decide if they want to participate.For example, in Germany, girls can wear scarves in local leagues , but not for international tournaments under FIFA.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/sports/soccer/for-host-germany-in-womens-world-cup-diversity-is-the-goal.html  

Yeah, I agree with SA. Get back in the kitchen where you belong ;o)

This is my personal opinion

I really blame the Muslim woman who participates in such a competitive sports,  woman is a symbol of softeness and kindness.

Dear Muslim woman please have confidence in yourself, your participation in such a competitive sport will not make you a better woman.

What will make you a better woman is taking care of your husband raising your children properly, educating your self by reading good books, ..etc.

Do not be like the bad woman who does know anything her husband or children, in short words do not be a careless woman.

TFS AD.  "In 2009, the National Football League agreed to change its schedule after the New York Jets complained about games that conflicted with consecutive Jewish holidays."  Amazing.  I just looked it up, and apparently there are about a dozen Jewish players in the NFL; can't find how many Muslim players, though.  Pretty impressed that the Minnesota player fasted during Ramadan and still played.  Fortunately for him, it will be a couple of decades before it falls during football season again.  

Yes frenchieman, it was NFL of amerrica, here is the linkhttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43527580/ns/world_news-americas/t/muslim-weightlifter-fights-compete-hijabi-style/

Interesting, AD.  Do you have a link for the story?By the National Football League do you mean American football or something else?  If so that is a little surprising as there are not many Jewish players, and they traditionally play on Sundays (the Christian day of rest) and on Christmas day (I think) and New Years Day (which is Catholic holy day).  But then maybe the owners of the teams are Jewish or the media broadcasters . . . I became a semi-fan when living in the US.I'm just glad this lady was able to participate.  It shows that sometimes there is justice in the sporting world.  :-)

TFS Frenchie, i was reading the similar news on msn, that in 2009, the National Footbal League agreed to change its schedule for Jewish holidays. Just wonder, if NIC will say, this is not the attitude of actually those, who are living in XXI century. ;)

Update for those who are interested:The International Weightlifting Federation has ruled that a Muslim weightlifter can wear her hijab during competition, as well as wearing a full-body unitard designed to meet the Federation’s requirements that judges be able to assess knee position while honoring her faith’s requirements for female modesty.http://lezgetreal.com/2011/07/muslim-weightlifter-can-wear-hijab/

^^

^&&

Yes ..He no a leader anymore .. but the legacy of destruction and killing of human beings and the lack of security Exists even now in Iraq and Afghanistan, it is command by Bush, so what i typed about Bush is general definition for this dirty personal

{When you wrote "The weakness of some Arab >>}

Yes I mean those State and other who silent on injustice to humanity of women and children and civilians who have no fault never

I personally love and really wish the world to live in peace and come out the invaders .. but I did not see anything indicating this ..

I did not see only the states to impose its control and kills for no reason just for their own interests, whether religious or material interests Without concern for humanity

Hurts me too when I see that all the prices And values in these life takes to rise

except one value day by day take down & to become a very cheap It's " Human blood" Especially the poor and The owners of the right

I wonder if that is really true today in 2011 ..

qatar2love--Bush is not the leader of anything anymore.  :-)When you wrote "The weakness of some Arab Muslims", are you referring to those counties that ally with Nato and all a US military presence on their soil?  Or do you mean something else entirely?

Well, then  we can conclude that the West does not pose a threat to Muslims, as most Westerners are believers...they DO believe in one god.

frenchieman

And BTW Bush is NOT European. :-)

yes you are Right he is NOT European

he is the leader U.S. terrorism that has no boundaries Of course, driven by a hidden hands:)Zionist Masonic dirty

Of course with And support its EU

& The weakness of some Arab Muslims under the pretext of the war on terrorism?!! It is strange that there is no clear definition of terrorism only is that he is al-Qaeda and the Muslims!!!

While the Lord to expose Bush And in front of the world and Hearing when he said of the Crusade .. not the war on terror, as he claims:)

I like to say that Ahmadinejad &iran does not represent Middle East Or even Muslims&Islam &He know this & there is differences with Iran most of the countries of Arabian Gulf >>Even in the countries of the Levant, except the Syrian regime only the Baathist regime alNosairi .. and also a new Iraq completely destroyed by the Americans and Iranians And also to Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, ALL those with Iran and Iran knows this

I think Iran intimate friend of America:)

because of common interests among them &this had to relationship:) that strengthened in Iraq &Maybe they have a joint plan in addition to Israel! Why not if they met stakeholders

And of course the service of Israel And protection in the monument of their eye>>whether consenting or despite the nose:)

iran now actually moving cells in the Gulf and most countries

I content with this

BUT!

I will conclude with a great verse in the Quran

Of course I will not cite the Verse in the Arabic language ..:)

But I will put the translation only

I seek refuge with Allah from Satan the accursed

Allah Almighty Said :(And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners)

Well, somebody should tell Ahmedinejad the crusader that, because he sure thinks he is part of the ME and a representative of Islam. And I would take Bush over him any day of the week.

And BTW Bush is NOT European. :-)

Btw, Ahmedinejad doesn't belong to ME. ;)

Well, they are showing themselves from time to time.

How about recent speech of Bush in XXI century, when he was saying "Either U are with us or with our enemy" and then saying "All the commands i'm receiving from God, and i'm guided by him".

Alter Dusty--Your statement "I think the mentality of europeans will remain same as it was at crusades time" is no different than saying the following Ahmadinejad statement is a throw back of the Arab Conquests and representative of the mentality of everyone living in the Middle East today: "The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world." Or how about this one: "We don't shy away from declaring that Islam is ready to rule the world." Now that is what I call a crusader.

However, I am not a xenophobe that is so desperate to play the victim I have to find obscure historical references from almost a century ago, apply them to 400 million people today, get them wrong, and then pretend to offended. LOL.

Get some perspective, try living in the present, and maybe people will take you more seriously.

frenchie

actually i was referring to French General Heneri Gouraud, who kicked on Salahuddin grave when he entered to Damascus in 1920.

I think the mentality of europeans will remain same as it was at crusades time.

More examples of racism and xenophobia: "your country France Hate Muslims and Arabs". Blanket statements to apply to 62 million people.

In my view racists and xenophobes are entitled to a free opinion, but then I am equally entitled to call it what it is and disagree with it.

You are proud that you are the owners of freedom of opinion

But when I say my opinion

qatar2love--when you make sweeping generalizations about 62 million French "they want to undermine the Muslim girl's chastity and this is clear and no one can deny" and assume that is the only reason all people might object to veil (I suppose including the Muslims that object to it as well?), I consider it xenophobic and racist.

I respect your devotion to your religion, but I object to your generalization of the motives of others that do not share your particular religious beliefs.

Anyway, I think we are getting off topic here.

s_isale--yes, but that does not make it right. I like to think we both have more morality than a billboard.

FM - women are considered as a commodity which adds value to a product. Else why are they used in different advertisements?

OK Well do not worry

I didn't realize any of these sporting women were wearing veils.

And if you bothered reading my posts on this thread (instead of making the racist, xenophobic assumptions you falsely accused me of) you would know that I support the right of a woman to wear whatever she wants in a sporting event so long as it does not give her an unfair advantage. So much for your ridiculous rant. I await your retraction and apology . . .

What if FIFA made a rule that required all female players to shave their hair off and play bald?

As an aside what is the Islamic ruling on Hijabs for bald women, as they have no hair to cover?

Is a naked head considered analagous to nude buttocks?

Just a thought!

Lol, this is funny...here we have people being upset that hijab is not acceptable in competetive sports. At the same time, people are asking if it is "valuable" for a Muslim woman to compete .

So my question is, if the trend is, as it seems, against Muslim women competing, should those people not be happy about this hijab ban as it may stop Muslim women from competing.

SA--I would say that it would 'make her a better woman' in the same ways competing would make a man a better man.

which makes us better, so let me rephrase my question as follow, in which way the participation of a Muslim woman makes her a better woman.

frencheiman when we say added value it is not necessary to mean money, an added value can be moral or incorporeal.

Women are not commodities to which we should look to add value.

A woman's reasons for participating are largely the same as a man's.

will the participation of a Muslim woman in a competitivw sport would add to her?

Yes, let's ban women from competitive international sports :-(

SA, the best solution is fod the ladies not to play football in the international arena. are they playing as a part of fitness or for others to enjoy?

@ krazysyklone,erm Arsenal are a club mate,we're talking about a national team here,more specifically,a women's national team,so if any comparisons are to be made,they ought to be made with...exactly, other women's national teams...club football rules may differ or may be less strict than national team rules...

make an equivalent thing for Hijab to be used in sports and the issue is closed.

Yes I guess "because they irritate Fergie" won't look so good as the official reason :-P

You must have a reason for banning something ... :o)

Dangerous?

Hahaha now who came up with that?

The "snoods" have been banned from next season - because they are deemed to be 'dangerous'

I don't understand the ban on Irani Football team over Hijab. Ever seen Arsenal play during winters? You can hardly see their faces with all the crap they put on. They are still allowed.

I was in Jubail (Eastern Province) and Riyadh.. Yes, Riyadh is a lot stricter...

brit - were you in riyadh or Jeddah?

I believe in Riyadh it is pretty strict compared to Jeddah and the eastern province

nomerci, i was reading a book 'in the land of invisible women' by one uk based muslim female doctor practising in saudi arabia. she pointed out exactly the same things..like, a strand of hair slipping out of the scarf for which eyebrows are raised even by the other ladies around.

brit, yes, i was stopped by them...on numerous occasions! Either a strand of hair slipped out out the scarf, or I had nailpolish on my toes, was wearing open sandals, lip gloss...you name it!

To Sal from earlier in the thread--I missed rampage's comments, but you are correct: I have no problem with any woman wanting to dress more modestly in competitive sports. There are plenty of Christian and Jewish sects that have strict dress codes, too. However, I believe it is incumbent upon the woman wanting to make the rule change to work within the rules of organization she want to compete. Governing bodies of sports make rulings on what type of dress and equipment is permitted all the time, and generally they are focused on the issue of a level playing field. The article points out possible advantages to wearing long-sleaved shirts in weight lifting, but I personally see no reason not to allow a hijab in soccer. Until the rule change is made, she has the option to join a group that allows to her dress as she chooses or not compete.

My objection is when idiots start blathering on about how this is all about discrimination and hatred of Muslims and another Crusade without knowing much about the Crusades or having any evidence (except for some pithy quote from nut that runs Iran). And then others complain about special treatment for Muslims. Obviously it is a deeply religious matter for some of the women involved (and I greatly admire those women who withdraw voluntarily on moral grounds), as you point out, but I don't think the wider issue for the sport has to treat it as a religious matter.

To put it in secular terms: If someone wants to wear a wonder woman costume while boxing the objection should be based on the advantage her magic lasso gives her, not on a judge's preference for a cat woman costume.

frenchieman, I appreciate your deep interest in Islamic Culture...

Were you ever stopped by them ? By the way, did you ever see Sudanese or Somali women wearing Abayas or did you usually see them in their national dresses...

Abaya is not mandatory, but it is easier to wear and convenient. Befor Riyadh, I lived in Jubail with my family. Most of the Ladies there wore loose fitting clothes and yes headscarves ...

the only women who were exempt were female Western doctors.

Brit, where I lived in Riyadh, we HAD to wear abaya and headscarf. Maybe those are not the rules of the country, but they certainly were enforced by the muttaween.

And, furthermore, some women were stopped by them because they wore lipgloss, polish on their toenails or had a small strand of hair sticking out.

Those were my experiences.

Now that more and more muslim women are into sports, let the sports costume designers come out with designs which would be compatible to both parties in question...I am sure there is a way out.

Enthusiast women cannot be kept away from sports just for this tivial reason.

I was just disagreeing with what you stated as fact ..

As for Saudi, I worked there for a period. Had a great time. Much better than Qatar. Don't agree with their policies, but enjoyed my stay there.. :o)

@ britexpat,my uncle & aunt lived in Saudi for a decade,my aunt had to wear an abaya EVERY TIME she left the house & let's agree on one thing,you do have a soft spot for Saudi! :)...

Alter Dusty,

Whatever makes you happy ;)

We all know U ------- The SMS Crowd? .....lol

Brit,

no, not to that extent ;)

You keep mentioning this, but actually i don't. I have said that I agree with harsher punishments for crime and I mentioned saudi. You seemed to think that this means that I approve of the Saudi regime :o)

Alter Dusty,

Trying to reconnect?

It’s all good, I said I forgive you ;)

britexpat,

we all know you tend to sympathize with Saudi ;)

Maybe I'm wrong. Having worked there , I know of many women, including my wife, who often wore long loose Shirts and trousers in public.

Perhaps Nomerci , who also lived there can confirm.

writing in BOLD doesn't make it reliable, but that isn't your fault.

Tinkerbell dress is very very VERY important .. thats why the girls wear skirts while men wear shorts for tennis lol

chill guys .. religion is crap and we dont need it. Two american women are arrested and deported from my state , for trying to convert some financilally poor guys to christianity .. :(

very well said Brit. Agree 100%

"In Saudi Arabia, the abaya is mandatory for women."

if one can not abide, then it's their choice but play with the rule. I they can not play without their head scarves, then they should not play (if that is according to rules).

For curiousity sake, was their a rule that hot countries can not host a sport's event such as WC? Let play the rule fair to all!

I think LP has said what I was going to say, but I think you are mixing a few things here.

The issue of France has been discussed to death. France banned the “niqab” and not the hejab using democratic means. This is their right.

You say that ALL religions MUST wear an Abaya in Saudi. This is not true. They must all dress conservatively, but Abaya is not mandatory.

Lastly, I agree with you that “special concessions” should not be made for Muslim women in sport. My own personal opinion is that if they feel so strongly about their faith, then they should not go into that sport.

if you sacrifice something for Allah then no need to feel sorry for yourself about it. As for Gadarene's comments about France; I for one respect France's right to ban the nikaab (they have not yet banned the hijab by the way), and would like the Muslim countries to ban bikin revealing clothes in public (of both men and women) to protect their own values if they have the guts.

and here U staredt it with name calling at --- 15/06/2011 - 8:26am

LincolnPirate,

well said, as usual ;)

Alter Dusty,

The only way you find to cope with your inability to debate is to revert to personal insults.

I forgive you as your ignorance might not be your fault!

This discussion is pretty useless. But: if you want to join a sports you have to follow the rules. If you don't like them, don't join. But you cannot try to force your rules on the rules of a group that has accepted these rules as part of their sport. You cannot play ice-hockey if you refuse to wear the gear that is required by THE RULES OF THE GAME! And you cannot participate in a horse race if you refuse to wear a head gear. May your reasons be religious or anything else. Just go, and do something else, and make your own rules, and find others who accept them!!

increasing number of Jerks never amazed me on QL, and Qlers like Nic are proving himself one of them.

Btw, NIC this must be a personal choice, but hating a certain religion/region can't keep U away or is it greedy human nature who forced U to earn your bread here?

gadarene,

No one from a certain believe is allowed or able to challenge anything imposed by that school of thoughts, no matter how non sense it may be.

That inability comes with the package (indoctrination) and that is why Khanan and s_isale well said that those who are able to criticize religion are exercising freedom, beyond the limits the religion imposes on them!

This has been discussed before & will continue to be discussed & each time i post this question,NONE of the people who support wearing the hijab have an answer o=to my question,but nevertheless,i'll ask again,

women of ALL religions MUST wear an abaya in Saudi & Iran,yet Muslim/Arab women MUST be allowed to be covered from head to toe in sport,how is that fair???...it would be,if the rules said non-muslim women could wear what they want but that isn't the case is it?...

Women in the gulf (by law at least) aren't allowed to wear skirts that are too high or tops that don't cover their shoulders,are too short etc. yet a big issue is being made about France banning the hijab???...once again,the calls against the ban on the hijab would be fair IF non-muslim women(or muslim even) were allowed to dress as they deemed comfortable in this part of the world...

So,if someone would care to enlighten me,why the double standards? why the demand for special concessions for muslim women in sport when non-muslim women aren't given any even in everyday life let alone just sport???...

Thoughts anyone?...

"if you defend religion you are a bigot. If you criticise religion you are a free man."

I agree and well said s_isale

isnt it possible to be civil?

@s_isale, quite clearly he is not alright...a few to many angry pills this morning

rampage are you alright?

if you defend religion you are a bigot. If you criticise religion you are a free man.

very articulate there rampage! Hope you 1 brain cell doesn't get lonely!

live in a FREE world! Free of any sort of DISCRIMINATION!

the usual hate comments by the same folks,oh my god ! i guess if they want to play topless then its perfectly fine and OK

because that puts the actual discussion into the background....and 'Rampage' , the frenchiman is I think trying to support the hujab in sports...

flor1212

Your intellect never fails to amaze me ;)

you won't understand anything about religion! Period! You are entitled to your belief and so the others!

Sal,

I know this is not the right place for this discussion.

But isn't faith engraved in one's mind by education?

You are conditioned to think that way because of the education you received, independently of god being what you think or what I think.

My point is, have you had the destiny of being born in a non religious family, you would have had the chance of still being a very nice person and free to do many things that you cannot do because you have been conditioned to surrender to the limits imposed on you.

Nic....religion is first of all faith not logic. Once we have true faith, then we see the logic. Allah has said in the Quran that He sees and hears even the tiniest movement of an ant. He is never too preoccupied because of taking care of the universe. Sorry for the sermon, but you posed a very pertinent question that had a very relevant answer.

Do you think that god with such an immense universe to take care of, would give a rat for how much skin you expose in this tiny piece of dust, that Earth is in comparison with the size of Universe?!

That is being just a bit too self-centered, in my opinion.

The things you are missing out of life in the name of a believe constructed by humanity!...

Sorry to be so direct, but that’s the question we all ask, when logic is applied!

As a Muslim, I know when you give up a worldly honour like a shot at championship or the championship itself, you dont do it with a heavy heart because you believe that Allah will compensate you much more than a zillion times for giving up something for Him. You actually do it happily! Its like Muhammad Ali putting everything at stake even jeopardising public opinions of his commitment to his country. So I agree they shouldnt really complain that they have been removed from a tournament or something. The organisers would most likely have valid reasons for not allowing hijab (not necessarily a prejudice against Islam or Muslims), they are all generally very strict in ensuring that everyone gets a level playing field (although if they really really tried they could find some way to accommodate the hijab); but again the woman refusing to take off her hijab has even more valid reason not to. And also she shouldnt be complaining about it because of the reason for her insistence.

LP--but even those were notoriously corrupt with politicians bribing the judges.

Some of the spandex sportwear worn by athletes nowdays , does not leave us far from it. However, the hurdlers and high jumpers may have something to say about it.

I think we should go back to the origins. The antic Olympic Games were for men only and the athletes were naked. That was the only way to ensure fair competition. We'll get there again, I'm sure.

IMO the decision seems to be right. Why to write a new rule book for just one instance... expecting the world to change for one individual or a handful of individuals is rather asking too much.

I agree. Clearly, sports authorities need to look seriously at this and find ways to allow these women to participate fairly. Until then, they have no choice but to ban the women. Unfortunately, as we have all seen recently, sports association are notoriously resistant to change and slow moving.

Tnkerbell--if it is weight lifting, certain types of specially engineered fabrics can provide an advantage by concentrating the muscles and allowing the user to more easily maintain the locked elbows. The difference is minor (we probably would not notice it) but for competitive lifters it is the difference between gold and silver.

LP--Agreed. I am not trying to justify anything. I am merely pointing to AD that his Crusades analogy is ridiculous given the larger context of history.

AD--the Palestinian Mandate was British, not French. The French were in Lebanon and Syria following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Get a history book mate. It will help.

LP--Sports clothing can give an advantage. Look at all the controversy following the new swimsuit technology a couple of years ago--subsequently banned for giving users an unfair advantage.

"Ruling" a country doesn't give you legitimacy, fm. It only means that you know how to use force better than the others!

Modern Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Tunisia, etc were all ruled by Christians before the Arab Conquests (mostly under the control of of the Byzantium Empire). The whole sales pitch of Crusades 1-3 was to get the 'Holy Land' BACK under Christian control. That's why are there are so many Christians still in these areas--they are descended from the original Christians, not the converts from the Crusades).

Alter Dusty,

You are pathetic and as usual unable to debate.

Don’t forget to allow the women in your life, to live!

tinker, she can have some secret weapons under her sleeves. Trust me, there has been ongoing research on suitable clothing for sports and other ventures, and what is the rule now, is the result of year long research.

Yes frenchieman

i was reading in bible the holy land of Jerusalem belongs to europeans, and later on in 19th century when re occupied by a french General it was gifted to the jews, to washout their sins of mass killings.

well said FM

Since when do religions own land?

Nic--Agreed. If nations do not want to participate based on the rules, then they can "leave". Isn't that what Westerners are always told about living in Muslim countries?

Places like Iran can set up their own organization for games that fit their understandings of how women should participate in sports. I would totally support that.

fm, "Christian's Land"? What are you talking about?

Alter Dusty--I love how you mention the Crusades. Maybe people like you are thinking they are still living in the age of the Arab Conquests (which originally took the Christian's lands that they tried to get back in the Crusades) and expect to be able to force the rest of the world to live according to YOUR rules. Get some perspective.

if "we" allow...lol

this attitude says it all!

Nic, it's a clear and simple situation: for every sport there are defined clothes. No exception for whatever reason are accepted. If you don't follow the rules, do another sport. You cannot go to the space station if you refuse to wear a spacesuit!

Something wrong with the attitude of so called civilized nations, if we don't allow women to participate in games, problem....if we allow them to participate then again they have problem.

I think, still these nations are living with Crusade centuries mentality.

LP,

It’s all because of globalization that caused the clash of two civilizations living 7 centuries apart!

Nic, they also denied a Muslim woman to drive a Formula 1 car. The hijab would have been a security issue. But the woman was angry!

LP,

That’s the attitude for those who actually live in the XXI century!

Because of my religion (Religion of personal freedom) I was denied entry in a casino in Monte Carlo. Tuxedo is a must. So what? I went to a street cafe instead, wearing jeans and cowboy boots!