Court annuls Turkish scarf reform
Turkey's highest court has annulled a parliamentary reform allowing college students to wear Muslim headscarves.
The Constitutional Court said that a decision in February to ease a ban on scarves being worn on campuses violated the constitution's secular principles.
The government said the ban meant many girls were being denied an education.
But much of the secular establishment resisted the move, seeing it as a step towards allowing Islam to figure more largely in Turkish public life.
ASSYRIANS ARE KNOWN IN ARABIC AS ASHOREES.
THEY ARE PERSECUTED ALL OVER THE MIDDLE EAST PARTICULARLY THE CHRISTIAN ONES.
THERE ARE MANY MUSLIM ASHOREES LIVING IN TURKEY, IRAQ AND SYRIA. HOWEVER BECAUSE OF ARABIZATION TEND NOT TO BE KNOWN AS WELL AS THE CHRISTIANS. HENCE THEY ARE PERSECUTED BECAUSE OF THE STEREOTYPE!
Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi
"the right to kill innocent people just because they want more right then the other ones? What kind of a person you are? Only a sick mind can support such an idea. We are talking about innocent people, even kids."
you should tell this to your military regime! you should ask them to stop committing such crimes against kurds & other ethnic groups. You should confess & enlighten the people that your attaturk has committed such crimes against kurds
Assyrians? Ya you are right. Sometimes Roman's are persecuted as well.
We do not have Kurds only as ethnic groups. Maybe 80 different cultures is living under the same flag. Does all of them had the right to kill innocent people just because they want more right then the other ones? What kind of a person you are? Only a sick mind can support such an idea. We are talking about innocent people, even kids.
Just forget it. You just blow your idiot messages around.
And Assyrians as well are often persecuted!
Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi
Maybe this is just a retaliation to Turkish crimes against them?
How much rights do the Kurds have in Turkey, anyway?
It seems that you have no idea about the region. Even you dont look at the map. Turkmenistan is not neighbour with Turkeya and we dont attack to our neighbours.
PKK has taken more than 30,000 innocent lives until now. What the ... you are talking about?
"We are not attacking Iraq, we are defending our ppl"
Well it seems that Turkey is doing a lot of "defending" through the years....I mean in Armenia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Bulgaria, Greece...etc!
Is there any nieghbouring country which you have no problems with?...ah, yes! Turkmanistan!
"Just search what the £#½$£
You are living in a world of lies m8. Lets talk when you wake up... The point that supports my thought is this;
--“Turkey is the country that prevents US soldiers to pass its own land because we were against war.”
Hahaha! Nice joke! You army is attacking Iraqi lands all the time, you fool!--
These lines make you the biggest fool ever ! We are not attacking Iraq, we are defending our ppl and borders from PKK (terorists). Just search what the £#½$£
Here we go again :P
--------
(Lebanon A piece of Heaven on Earth)
“And its forbidden to wear hijab in military yes because its the law to protect Turkey from getting just before the ages of when Ottoman Empire ends”
This is EXACTLY how attaturk & the military has brain-washed you
“Turkey was the only country that makes offend against Israel bombings in Palestine just a few months ago”
BRAVO! So tell your government to stop its hypocrisy and to close the Israeli embassy in Turkey
“Turkey is the country that prevents US soldiers to pass its own land because we were against war.”
Hahaha! Nice joke! You army is attacking Iraqi lands all the time, you fool!
“You are familiar with the community guidelines I assume. I would be very careful.”
Dweller you have to tell that to some of the Turks on this thread, who are lying by claiming that Turkey is a free country and that you can say what ever you like about the dictator, attaturk
“The things you are supposed to assemble will fall off the belt”
MD, as long as there is time for a smoke, coffee break, lunch break…etc, there is time for a harmless prayer! It’s up to you if you prefer a snack or a prayer. It is nice that you have the option to do either of them!
Funny how we had a thread some time ago where I mentioned the secularists in Turkey trying to reinvent Islam by examining hadith. I mentioned that all the people involved in this reinvention of Islam were also known to have deep political ties with the goverment.
And people still think they do not have an ulterior motive?
The turkish goverment is in the process of reinventing hadith in order to bring Islam back into politics that would be representative of democracy and freedom many enjoy in the west. Whilst having a firm handhold on people of religion in Turkey.
Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi
They don't go to Germany because they can practice their religion better don't let them kid you. They go for the money. A large number of them come back to Turkey during July/August on holiday because they still have homes here. My home is very close to the homes of many of these German/Turks. It's simple economics. They can earn more in Germany
Thanks to you friends now we are reaching to some point. When we don't call some 1 names or not idea fixed at one point thats the way a discussion has to be :) No one needs my approval but well done friends :)) Thank you again. Default Nick and muner well said m8s cant say better :) Dweller thank you for your opinion on Ataturk and his name also. MD said it short for
"true, too, Alex, but the "founder" of the state (Ataturk) installed the rule of secularism knowingly and intentionally. He wanted the separation of church and government!" it was the brief explanation for all the secularism that some ppl can't understand. Alexa you are right at some point. But the problem is there are (for my opinion) 3 kinds of ppl in Turkey.
1-Ppl who are sick of these secular-radical Islamic discussion and that chose the path of "Hell with radical Islamism and hell with Secularism" type
2-Who are trying to bring the radical Islam in Turkey
3-Who are opposing that idea and remain like as we are. (These ppl are Muslim also and we pray, fast and practice Islam also, secularism doesnt mean we don't believe in God and we don't follow the path, But another friend well said that its between me and God if I drink or pray or etc.)
Default Nick was right at another point also like other friends; "There is a system in Turkey and of course all systems will try to protect itself against outside affects"
Born 2 Ride - Ride 2 Born
ja, that's the problem, Alex.
with your comment about being conned in the house of God. That's unforgiveable in any religion.
Whils't Ataturk may have left something to be desired, without him Turkey would be further behind than it is now and has a lot to thank him for. It is for that reason that he is revered.
It is still derogatory not to use his correct name.
BTW, thanks for the compliment
Indeed, let us not...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
true, too, Alex, but the "founder" of the state (Ataturk) installed the rule of secularism knowingly and intentionally. He wanted the separation of church and government!
Well, then, amerrycanmuslim, let's not make a mountain out of a molehill.
MD, I am telling you it easy to both. To pray it can take as little as 2 minutes to make whudu and 5 minutes to pray a 4 unit prayer...
It was probably a case of Muslims making a mountain out of a molehill as they do sometimes....
Well put Alexa!
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
... it maybe wrong, Alex, but it is the rule for this group. Make your own group, then you define the rules. Become the leader of the group, then you define the rules. Join the group as a member, then you have to follow the rules. (See QL Community Guidelines).
yes, of course, there are planned breaks. But I bet you'd rather have a bite in those breaks than go to pray, which is understandable. These guys made their choice because they needed to send money back home. They did not start a rebellion against the timings. When I joined the German Air force at the age of 18 I also had to make compromises. But I knew it would not be forever. But I just could not insist on wearing my jeans and cowboy boots.
MD, I have not worked on a conveyor belt. There was a similar story in America a few years back with Somali immigrants.
But the fact is that other than the fajr (morning prayer) and maghrib (sunset prayers) salaat there is a good sized window to make the prayers. And like I said, obviously they stop for mandated short breaks and a longer lunch break, right?
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
Dweller, I am honestly taken aback by your comments in this thread. Not that you care but I found your posts to be highly astute and spot on...
But, alas, I find your comments in this thread to be strange.
Dweller according to Rider you can say as you like about him in Turkey, but you & I know that that is false, right?
I would not use that language against the ruler of Qatar because he has not committed the atrocities that the other man has and I do not question whether the shaykh is a Muslim or not.
I am most disappointed with your last statement. No Dweller of course it was not a large amount of money. I think it was about 650,00 lira to the dollar then... So it was about $25... But the fact that he took advantage of me in a house of God is the most disturbing aspect to me then and now. I hope you are not condoning his action because of the small amount that it may have been...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
I don't know, my friend, if you ever worked at a conveyor belt. You cannot steal away. The things you are supposed to assemble will fall off the belt. How long do you think the supervisor will accept this?
MD, the world offers us plenty. But we pick and choose as we like and we have every right to do so.
Your statement about the Ford plant is nonsensical as well. They work, what? 8 hour shifts? They would maybe in the winter time have to pray maximum 3 times on the job... You make it sound like the smokers don't get time for their addiction... let alone time to eat...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
And you claim to have been in Turkey. I am surprised at your attitude.
You are familiar with the community guidelines I assume. I would be very careful.
It is a total insult to Turkish people. Would you use such comments about leaders in Qatar?
BTW is 20,000,000 lira such a big loss. In those days it was about 3 Qatar riyals
We are not against people praying or non-praying, practicing or non-practicing, beliving in God or non-beliving in God. We just dont support the idea to force the others to do that. Of course there were extremes in both sides. We dont want that also.
Belive me guys, if you read more about Ataturk, you will not belive yourself what a balance he made in Turkey. It has been destroyed after his death by the ineffective and dependent politicians.
OK, then discuss the example of Ford Motor Company in Germany!
Oh MD, behave...
I never any such thing.... I said, that your statement was ridiculous and borderline stupidy...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
amerrycanmuslim, I know you think I'm stupid. Couldn't care less.
Very well said "Default Nick". Everybody should learn about Mevlana Jelaluddin Rumi.
I would even go further: if you are a true Muslim, this world doesn't offer you much. In Cologne, in Germany, there is a Ford (Motor Company) plant. The many Turkish workers who came there had to give up praying. Ford would not stop the conveyor belts for a second. They either wanted the job, or they wanted to pray five times a day. Both together didn't work.
MD that is just ridiculous... And I am sorry to say borderline stupidity...
The examples you gave are out of necessity or practicality. How does that hold in regards to the hijab, do pray tell?
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
Our Islamic beliefs like this as written below by the way. These words are said 800 years ago when it was the dark time for most of the world. So, people we sure know about Islam and we can decide how to live it.
Seven Advice from
Mevlana Jelaluddin Rumi
-------------------------------
In generosity and helping others, be like a river.
In compassion and grace, be like the sun.
In concealing other's faults, be like the night.
In anger and fury, be like dead.
In modesty and humility, be like the earth.
In tolerance, be like the sea.
Either appear as you are, or be as you appear.
And another saying from him
"Come, come again, whoever you are, come!
Heathen, fire worshipper or idolatrous, come!
Come even if you broke your penitence a hundred times,
Ours is the portal of hope, come as you are."
For more info you can check: http://www.mevlana.net/
Everyman dies; but not every men really lives.
When you marry, you give up some of your "bachelor" privileges in favor of being a husband. When you have kids you sell your Porsche and buy a Tahoe. When you want to participate in the knowledge offered at a university you have to sacrifice something, too. When you want to work in the International Space Station you can't take your bicycle with you. So you must decide what you want.
Given your argument, then the state is interfering, because only a certain "class" of females will go to University..
Dweller, I will not and I fail to see how it is offensive to anybody but the man himself.
If someone called George Washington some offense name do you think America would really care? If someone called some European nation's founder some name that they would really care?
I believe that father of shirk is more befitting to him in context of modern day Turkey than father of the Turks.
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
One thing comes to mind..
Freedom of expression. If it is a democracy and a civilized country, then freedom of expression should be allowed as long as it does not harm or violate the rights of others.
How does wearing a head scarf do this ??
MD I agree with you 100%...
The issue is with people stating just that and in the next breath talking about how Muslim woman need to stand up for themselves... And educate themselves... So that they are not dumb servants to their overbearing men!!
A couple people already said it above though, so I wont get really get into it inshaAllaah...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
Your constant reference to atta shirk is extremely offensive not only to Turkish nationals but to myself.
I suggest you use the correct name.
amerycanmuslim, even if its a government law it is thought to be applied for a certain group. You still have the choice not to study if you want to wear clothes that are not allowed.
MD it is government law not university law.... The universities do not have a say in the matter...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
Of course they would not.... But hamdulillaah you didn't dispute what I have written... Good on you...
I do not see whether I live in a world of peace or otherwise has any bearing on this particular discussion.
They were not in the military. They were woman and girls, some wives, some daughters of various nationalities who were/are married or the children of the military member. But for some reason they are a threat to your 'stable democracy'.... Ajeeb!
I would not nor could not remain in Turkey for that long of a period... And BTW they are Turkish bases not American.
LOL, right try to understand Muslims... More like try to understand Turks...
But, you know what I am thankful for Turkey in a few ways... I did receive daw'ah as a non Muslim while I was there... at the disco... from drunk Turks... But it's all good... I also fell for my first monetary scam in Turkey.. From a Muslim... in a mosque... yah he got me good... I hope the 20 million lira he got of me was worth the torment on yawmal qiyyamah...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
You are right, muner. A university is a group or system with its rules. The rules are: no religious symbols. If somebody doesn't like it, he must not join that group, he can join another group. What's the fuss about??
What exactly do you understand from democracy?
Do yo really think that the ruling party wants democracy in the country or it is just a cover found to protect the penetration activities.
It is very easy to speak from outside like you.
By the way, it is not forbidden to wear hijab in Turkey. Please go and see. Our friends, mothers, daughters are covered and praticing. Nobody is obstructing them. It is forbidden to wear clothing/signs etc which represents religious and ethnic groups in govermental institutions. High schools and univerties included.
That is it.
I think people shall not have the right to judge people for their believe. Yes I am a muslim Turk and I am drinking as well. It is between me and God. As we are taught prophet said that "There is no force in religion." So we are supposed to judge all Arabs living a good life without helping other Arab people in Palestine or other poor countries? Turkey was the only country that makes offend against Israel bombings in Palestine just a few months ago. I didn't hear or read anything from any Arab country. I don't know maybe i didn't follow the news very well. For scarf subject and democracy sure you will try to prevent Radical Islam and make some rules if some Radicals start to throw chemicals to girls walking on the street with modern clothes (like trousers and so on, i am not only talking about mini skirts) and thinking they are doing sth bad. And also let me explain sth since the Islamist Parties start to use this as a political symbol girls were able to go schools with scarfs. There were o problem for them. ABUAMERICAN look at yourself before offending other people. You are offending Turkish people not to be able to choose one way but you cant choose a way even for your nick. America is liberating Muslim Iraq and finding non existing biological weapons, not there for OIL, Iraq was a real threat for USA from thousands of km s away from US; right? Turkey is the country that prevents US soldiers to pass its own land because we were against war. Ataturk: that some people are offending here was the person to say peace in land, peace at the world. There is a system in Turkey and of course all systems will try to protect itself against outside affects. With this system Turkey is the most developed Islamic country with its own resources. Compare Turkey with Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and others not having OIL treasure. Of course we should be better in democracy and humanism but there are some critical issues that we have to deal with.
Everyman dies; but not every men really lives.
If I go to USA and say ill words for roosevelt or others they don't arrest me for this you mean ? :) LOL ok m8 you live in a world of peace let me not interrupt you :) And its forbidden to wear hijab in military yes because its the law to protect Turkey from getting just before the ages of when Ottoman Empire ends... You dont know a thing in here and you say "you did this you did that" like a child :) You have to live in Turkey for years and not in your US Bases in Adana in order to understand Turkey. You live in your little world dude. Yes we worship Ataturk, Yes he is like a god ! LOL grow up m8. BTW I know why you don't write Ataturk so it was just a correction to (maybe) write his name true. You write "wallahu" "InsAllah" and preted to understand Muslims but you don't know a thing about Islam. We don't call names after dead ppl, not true Muslims.
And the writing about "There is no God named Allaah and Muhammad is on vacation" there will always be sick ppl. There is no excuse for that.
Born 2 Ride - Ride 2 Born
Rider... you are a funny guy... are you here trying to make us laugh?
Not once did i say in my post the word 'defend'... So I will just ignore that part of your post, okay?
As well, I never quoted a word you said. So I will ignore that part of your post as well. What do I have left, 60% to destroy?
And you seem to miss the entire point. And I mean the Entire point...
No one said anything about judging Allaah. And no one I saw said that you people 'pray' to atta shirk. What they do is worship atta shirk as a false deity.
Guy, I personally know an American who was arrested and tried before a court for speaking ill of atta shirk while he was drunk off of Turkish produced alcohol in Adana in 1999. So please save that tripe for yourself. He served time in a Turkish jail for speaking ill of atta shirk.
I know of American families that had to be removed from the country because the Turkish military wouldn't let them stay on the military base that they were assigned to because their wife and daughters wore hijab.
I know a Turkish brother who served in the Turkish military and in his military barracks above the exit to the building it was written, "There is no God named Allaah and Muhammad is on vacation" in Turkish.
And in reality, that is all fine. Your country (or military?) makes these rules. That is their "democratic" right to do so... But please don't try passing it off as he was a savior of Islaam... If it wasn't for him... blah blah blah...
And we call him "atta shirk" on purpose. We know his made up name quite well as you call him " atta turk"... But "atta shirk" is more befitting, The Father of Shirk. It is an arab word, look it up inshaAllah.
And after I quote you ahadeeth about nationalism and all the evils of it you still go on with it... PROUDLY... wallaahu musta ahn...
As I said you ENTIRELY missed the point....
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
Ok dude u say I don't say and defend "ALLAH" as I defend Atatürk. I can only laugh at this because there can never be a doubt about "ALLAH"... I prove, that you ppl (don't know about Turkey, Atatürk and Islam) can never get the right point of view from your narrow angle. you blame me for saying "Atatürk was needed for Islam" where did I said that ???
"what you say about Atta Shirk it is a shame you do not say about Allaah." Are you insane dude ?? Who can judge ALLAH or say something against him ?? I didnt say a thing because I can't... He is the LORD, ALLAH, ALL MIGHTY and in every religion he is the ONE. What did you expect me to say ?? NO ONE can question, judge him ! I said;
"Do you know that if Ataturk didn't do that reforms and other things (including making all the nation fight against all the countries that wants a piece of us) no one can pray in mosque, no once can fast in Ramadan, no one can decide what to do with their own will ! You are just blubbering about what you don't know !! I'am a TURK, I'am a Muslim. I'am fasting in Ramadan and I pray every night and I know that Ataturk gave us these. There is nothing like "our god Atatürk" kind of thought. How can you call Atatürk "God" ?? Its a sin to call someone "god". Atatürk was not a god and he isn't now also."
Read it again and entirely dude.
We don't pray to Ataturk we pray to GOD... You said when u were in Turkey you saw that Atatürk is treated like god. You get it all wrong dude ! We love Atatürk yes but if you were really in Turkey you must have seen that ppl can talk about Atatürk and they can blame him judge him or write things, call him names... But as we Turks, in known that he had made some great things -including giving us the oppurtunity to fight and WIN against the countries that invaded Turkey- we are grateful. So we defend him also. We know what the word "gratitude" means...
ALLAH created Atatürk and we know that for sure, we pray to GOD not Ataturk. If you know the word gratitude you'll understand also. We are all grateful that ALLAH created us, and we are grateful that Ataturk gave the opp to fight and WIN the battle against too many nations... I know that we are all but just a very tiny piece of ALLAH's mercy, and being. He is the creater and we are just human beings. We just know the word what gratitude means dude. I'am not dizzy about "whirling dervish stuff"
as you call it; I just know the meaning of gratitude...
You said; "You see 'rider' not everyone loves their country. Most Muslims couldn't give 2 squirrel farts about it. Turks take nationalism to an extreme in the Muslim world." I don't care how many farts who can give... Its their problem not mine, I love my country but I know that we dont "take nationalism to an extreme" this is what it has to be if you love your country and your religion. The ppl who dont give 2 squirrel farts is not my problem. I cant make ppl love their country, this is me and I live by my rights.
By the way the correct spelling is "Ataturk" not Atta shirk !
Born 2 Ride - Ride 2 Born
Okay dude... All that whirling dirvish stuff must have you a little dizzy.... You cannot be shown an example Turkish democracy because it is an oxymoron.
I know for sure that Atta Shirk is treated as a 'god' (a false idol or deity) in Turkey. I saw it and experienced it when I was there with US Air Force. I have numerous Muslim brothers who saw and experienced it in Turkey. I know Turkish Muslims who served in the Turkish military and told me of the things they saw and experienced.
You see 'rider' not everyone loves their country. Most Muslims couldn't give 2 squirrel farts about it. Turks take nationalism to an extreme in the Muslim world.
Nationalism is HARAM with many quranic and prophetic proofs. Some of the strongest and most direct include when the Muhammad (SAWS) was asked about 'assabiyah' and he said, "Leave it. It is Rotten" [Bukhari & Muslim]
(Refers to all forms of Assabiyah such as nationalism, racism, and patriotism.)
The Messenger of Allah (SAWS) said, "He is not one us who calls for Assabiyah, or who fights for Assabiyah or who dies for Assabiyah." [Abu Dawud]
The messenger also said, " ...People should give up their pride in nations because this is a coal from the coals of hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah will consider them lower than a lowly worm which pushes itself through khur (feces)." Abu Dawud and Tirmidhee].
You see rider Islam was never in need of Atta Shirk and what you say about Atta Shirk it is a shame you do not say about Allaah. That it is because of Him, the most high, that Turks can do this or can do that....
Another 2 or 3 generations and most Turks won't have a clue what these 'funny' looking buildings with tall pointy poles all around them are even for... let alone Islaam...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
forget about ataturk , let's talk about Mohand (GUMUS) ;)
M8s do you know Turkey ?? Do you know what Islam means ?? Do you know the plans after all these "wear scarf-Ban scarf" arguements ?? Do you know that as Muner said "we are a mixture of cultures and religions for ecnturies" ?? What the hell are you ppl talking about saying Ataturk "go to hell ?" Who do you think you are to judge that ?? Do you know that if Ataturk didn't do that reforms and other things (including making all the nation fight against all the countries that wants a piece of us) no one can pray in mosque, no once can fast in Ramadan, no one can decide what to do with their own will ! You are just blubbering about what you don't know !! I'am a TURK, I'am a Muslim. I'am fasting in Ramadan and I pray every night and I know that Ataturk gave us these. There is nothing like "our god Atatürk" kind of thought. How can you call Atatürk "God" ?? Its a sin to call someone "god". Atatürk was not a god and he isn't now also. But he made too many things for Turkey and still some of my ppl can't understand this ?? Where are you m8s, where do you live, are you that blind not to see what he had done ??? And for ppl not from Turkey and dont know anything about Ataturk, please "shut up m8s !" Turkey is a place that every nation and every 1 still wants a piece of us. Because of bosphorus (a strategic place indeed), because of being a bridge between Asia and Europe, because of many many things. So please stop playing tricks and games on Turkey !! Keep in mind that everyone has plans for/from Turkey so they are keeping every issue in Turkey hot. And when they are shaking hands with us most of them backstabbing us also.
Born 2 Ride - Ride 2 Born
At least I'am not calling a dead person "go to hell, burn in hell". You show me as an example of "Turkish Democracy" so I can call you what may I ask ??? By the way if you can read my post entirely, you can understand that I told "ppl who dont know anything about Ataturk to shut up" because its too easy to blubber for something-someone you dont know eveything about !
And another thing, yes as Turks we love our country and we will defend it to death m8. And also the ppl that tries to divide us will always face us. Every one loves his/her country but we have proven how much we love our country with our flesh&blood that gave our flag its color... So dont you "another example of Turkish Democracy" to me m8.
Born 2 Ride - Ride 2 Born
"shut up m8s !"
I simply dont get it why they cant allow girls to wear headscarf, what a shame for so called Muslim country. where is the democracy when one is allowed to wear short much-showing cloths and those who want to cover themselves arent allowed in Colleges.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
this is exactly they type of "democracy" in Turkey. It is artificial
We as 95% of the Turks are Muslims we believe in Islam but the country will never be forced to obey the Islamic rule WE WILL NEVER ALOW THIS.... And Turkey will remain SECULAR.
Look there is something really you know it wrong. Half of the media in Turkey is making emissions and news against Ataturk. Nobody is going to jail. Of course we respect the person and many others who died in the independendence war to save the freedom of the country. It has been exagarated a little bit this respect, it is true.
You said the right word AbAmerican. "You look from outside".
Nobody whishes for army interventions. Some of them were not necessary. But try to see the picture behind. There are big plans for the region. This includes the separation of Turkey as well. We are a mixture of cultures and religions in Anatolia. 600 years we lived and protected these cultures ans religions.
The discussion is artificial.
When Ataturk started to organize the people in Anatolia, there were many opposants who were supporting the idea to be protected by occupying countries.
I am not trying pursuade anybody or trying to convince that my idea is correct. I really understand that from "Outside" it looks or they want it to look in this way, but I want to emphasize about some facts.
I also agree with Rumple, 100%
:-)
By the way, Most of us do not want be a part of EU but to apply the rules and regulations in every field that would improve our life standarts. We know that this was "the carrot put in front of the rabbit". The carrot fall down and eaten by others.
:-)
Oh Rempelstiltskin (or whatever). You are so wrong. Without the independence war against the emperyalism which was won with bare hands and without those reforms which was made to reach the wealth level of Western (but not to be one of them), Turkey and we, Turks were going to be slaves now. Ottoman empire was already dead and was sold out. What those armies were doing in Anatolia, trying to take a stake?
We are now discussing an artificially raised problem as the freedom of our ladies, daughters, mothers to wear hijab. Who can talk about freedom if you were a slave. Why the Turkish government is not dissussing the covered girl's problems like the pressure from the family or the pressure from the environment? Because it is not the idea to make the people free. Those girls who is trying to enter to university, will be married and surprise, she will be forced by her husband to stay at home and look after the babies. Do you really think that this is freedom?
People like you who cannot see the real plans, such as "Great Middleeast", behind these artificial discussions created when there are so many other important issues and problems, will be obliged to live as a slave. But we rather die free and many thanks to Ataturk.
if he would execute people who would not change their costume.
I believe that the ONLY reason that the whole world has their mouths shut about the violence of this dictator, is that he "westernised" Turkey.
If he had done the opposite, if he had turn Turkey into a religious country, if he had changed the country's texts from Latin, to Arabic alphabets, if he had forced the people not to wear western costumes...etc, the world would have attacked this dictator day & night. (take Iran for example)
The fact that people in Turkey are not allowed to express their opinions freely about this Ataturk, makes it an ugly system there.
This is why the only way to deal with such a stupid system is by cheating, exactly like the way that decent girl did, by wearing a wig on top of her hijab!
For us, after 600 years of wars with Ottomans, Atatürk means PEACE!
I love Atatürk!
I don't think that Turkey will get into the EU. A recent poll revealed that the majority no longer wish to join the EU and in any case don't think they ever will. If they DO gain admission (and thats at least 10 years off) it could be a disaster in terms of cost. You only have to look at what happened to Greece in the way of inflation.
I think that a preferred trading partnership would suit Turkey very well. As I am not a Turk, obviously my views shouldn't be considered as they may vary from those of a Turk.
Regarding Ataturk. He is held in great esteem in Turkey for the following (but not all inclusive) reasons (taken from the BBC site but edited)
In May 1919, Atatürk began a nationalist revolution in Anatolia, organising resistance to the peace settlement imposed on Turkey by the victorious Allies. This was particularly focused on resisting Greek attempts to seize Smyrna and its hinterland. Victory over the Greeks enabled him to secure revision of the peace settlement in the Treaty of Lausanne.
In 1921, Atatürk established a provisional government in Ankara. The following year the Ottoman Sultanate was formally abolished and, in 1923, Turkey became a secular republic with Atatürk as its president. He established a single party regime that lasted almost without interruption until 1945.
He launched a programme of revolutionary social and political reform to modernise Turkey. These reforms included the emancipation of women, the abolition of all Islamic institutions and the introduction of Western legal codes, dress, calendar and alphabet, replacing the Arabic script with a Latin one. Abroad he pursued a policy of neutrality, establishing friendly relations with Turkey's neighbours.
In 1935, when surnames were introduced in Turkey, he was given the name Atatürk, meaning 'Father of the Turks'. He died on 10 November 1938.
why is the hair of the girls haram in the religion???
if so, their face is more haram... first face must be covered... and of course their body features, must wear loose cover all over the body.. best of all sit at home never go out.....
which freedom are u guys talking about???. some people are taking freedom from the hands of people by scaring with Allah!!!
she had her hijab, she had to wear a wig on top of it, in order for the guard at the gate to let her in the university which she studies in! Very clever! Sometimes the only way to do things is by cheating on those stupid Kemalists!
The reporter of Aljazeera also mentioned that there was a time in Turkey when Kemal the dictator, forced the people to wear western costums, and that some Turks were executed for refusing to change their head cab (Tarboush) with the western (mafia) hat! What a criminal dictator this Kemal must have been!
and say your opinion freely about their political leaders!
But are you telling me that this is right, dwel?
I thought that the Turks dream of joining the EU! Shouldn't they act like one?
you daren't come to Turkey and say that Rump.
I am still waiting for you on the other thread to tell us the story behind this "Son of God"...hahaha
Molae said:
it is time for the turkish ppl to throw away the false robe of democracy & start taking the law with their hands.
Molae, What kind of robe do you wear?
Maybe, your robe is "booby trap" and fully loaded with ""Explosives"" ready to start taking the law with your own hands?
And let's dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world. Let us dedicate ourselves to that, and say a prayer for our country and for our people
Yes, u r right unfortunately a lot of concept has changed it’s meaning recently. We hope they turn their own meaning again.
Scarves and bonnets have been worn for centuries. Mostly as protection from the heat, but also for modesty.
No one regarded as a religious symbol till recently.
Nadt, ofcourse covering is due to religious belief. However, some speculations made on it so it became a political symbol as I said “that scarf sorry to say used as a political symbol”. Besides, at the beginning I said that” To present self existence, there is no need to use extraordinary dress or other types of accessories. Except from the image, it is achieved by using intelligence, knowledge and talent.” This shows we are agree that to use brain and take education is independent of wearing. I’m sure u understood what I mean.
bobaob...You think that the scarf is worn for "political beliefs? Are you sure about that? Maybe some do but im sure for others its because its part of their religion..
Your post is wishy washy...you said a type of covering gives a message, im assuming you mean hijab..well the meaning of that is that a woman is muslim, simple really, no hidden messages there. Muslim women dont swtich on and off their beliefs, hence they cant do as you suggested take their veil off to attentd Uni and then place it back on after graduating..
So if women took the scarf off and wore a mini skirt, does that mean she can use her brain more, whats the difference what you wear. Going to university is about using your brain to learn and aquire qualifications, has nothing to do with what you wear..
it is time for the turkish ppl to throw away the false robe of democracy & start taking the law with their hands
Actually there is no wrong thing for the decision. There are fundamental rules described in law which are based on logic, collective reason and necessities of time. To present self existence, there is no need to use extraordinary dress or other types of accessories. Except from the image, it is achieved by using intelligence, knowledge and talent. Type of covering gives some message. It doesn’t look like grand mothers traditional cover type. As clearly be understood, that scarf sorry to say used as a political symbol, so can not be accepted in public areas where may lead disorder among people. They are not allowed in governmental areas during education and working period. Except these periods everybody can wear in anyway.In addition, there are same kinds of decisions made by higher court of EU. Furthermore, as being an EU member and democratic, there are similar decisions in France too. It is not the restriction of education; it is just remind some people who are insist not to obey the rules for political reasons. They can attend their education for a couple of years without scarf then after graduation they can work in private sector or own business by wearing whatever they want. Not only because of firmly secularism due to separate concern of real world and concern of supersensible world but also to prevent chaos and to give an order is the reason of ban. This is the main doctrine and philosophy of Turks for thousands of years. Turks respect all religions, all spirituality and all people as being the same with equal creatures of God in mind and in practice. They have been in belief of one God before acceptance of Islam, after acceptance, they were being the advance guard of Islam. They always have high ethical values, high honor and high fairness. This situation is not caused by only religious or social reasons; it is the way and perception of life. Who are two faces in believe or unacceptable behaviors like in Germany etc. unfortunately who couldn’t develop in real Turkish culture and the worst part of population, who can not have enough education and enough property to live in a human manner. As it is the same painful reality for lowest part of population in all countries. On the other hand, as dissociating the world business, Turks likes alcohol, like dance, like eating delicious food, like good furniture and like good dress like all people do. In my opinion, women rights are very developed. The number of women have higher education and have eligible jobs such as professors, businesswomen, engineers, doctors, lawyers are proportionally high and it may comparable with western countries. I hope everybody will see or live in Turkey, will meet real Turkish people and let to know themselves Turks, as in many language means “good person”.
He was puppet in the hands of Europe. Now he must be screaming with pain in his grave.
He was a hypo, hypocrites will be the lowest level of hell
AA its very silly, funny how you can wear it on your neck its ok and stylish, but not the head...
God, your damned if you do and damned if you dont...Muslim women are constantly told to get an education, and get out in the work force, but are banned(in some places and i can see that this will be a trend) from getting that education wearing hijab that will in tunr help them enter the work force..
Its amazing that a scarf on the head can cause all this commotion...
Gurudwars. I have seen few in South Hampton
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1362709.ece
________________________________________
If you see evil in others, it is actually the reflection of your own evil feelings
You're fortunate.. I don't know where you are, but in the UK, where I have many friends and family, most do not g to church or pray.
Infact church attendences all over the world are on the decrease and many hurches are shutting their doors.
...other than serving it on Thanksgiving Day. XD
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
britexpat, I dont really know much details about chirstianity or what does the bible say. Most of my Christian friends drink and party, but they go to church aswell, infact they are more dedicated to their religion than alot of muslim people that I know.
"There's good in everyone, sometimes people just get diverted to the wrong path"
You said it - "only God knows".
How many Christians prctice christianity ?
This applies to all religions. It is between me and my Lord!
Turkey is not only like that, most of the muslim world is like that now a days, if we think about technicalities. "I am a muslim" is just something people say to convince others, but only god knows how many of them are real muslims.
"There's good in everyone, sometimes people just get diverted to the wrong path"
I feel tat one should be allowed to wear whatever he/she likes not be forced to wear /not wear.
Its the choice of the individual concerned what he/she likes.
*The happiest people on this planet are not those who live on their own terms but are those who change their terms for the ones whom they love..*
"Molae, if you were in turkey you could be jailed for that outburst against Ataturk...the headscarf is not the major issue, it's a symbol of the start of the end for secularism, which will not be tolerated... The Army will step in..."
Exactly my point!
This is a country with corrupted kind of "democracy". They literally force the people to abandon Islam using force/army.
Such a country must NEVER be allowed in the EU. (they should be left with us, we the 3rd world countries)
Thanks for your clarification. As the so called muslimist party, the AKP have a big majority and I thought you were meaning they would be losing power.
They have done a lot of good for Turkey.
That's a bit harsh! Most of turkish living in rural areas are practicing Muslims. The problem occurs that the constitution , enforced as neccessary by the Generals pushes secularism..
Molae, if you were in turkey you could be jaied for that outburst against Ataturk, he ie revered throughout the country. The only thing that holds Turkey togrther is his doctrinate, otherwise it would crumble into East and West. From most people I know, the headscarf is not the major issue, it's a symbol of the start of the end for secularism, which will not be tolerated. The Army will step in as the people trust them over the goverment.
dweller think in reverse. i was talking about the so called secularists.
IMHO is mustafa ataturk. He is responsible for all the injust that occured against the muslim turks.
So it is OK for a university girl to wear a mini skirt, but she is not allowed to enter if she was covering her hair! What kind of a wierd "democracy" is this???
Turkey should never be accepted in th EU if this is its idea of "democracy"
As a Turk, I believe that hard core seculars will one day have to accept the freedom of religion. Public polls show that 90% of the people are in favor/not against the headscarf, but the established bureaucracy does not want to see this fact.
I believe there is good in every evil. The court's decision is absolutely evil. For Muslims it will serve as an impetus to improve themselves inshaallah. One day Muslim Turks will take back the power from this group of Islamophobic people. As Muslim Turks we know that their roots arenot in our Muslim Turkey, but in evil, Masonic organizations. May Allah help us... Amin.
Three things to remember when you get older:
Never pass a bathroom, Never waste a hard-on and Never trust the fart.
Just keep that on mind as you approach crepitude.
I don't understand your comment.
Who would be losing power and what would they revoke completely?
It's a very touchy subject in Turkey and nothing at all to do with losing power for the governing party.
well one day they will be forced to revoke it completely. It just shows their fear of losing power.