165 million outcasts unchanged by democracy
Sad state of affairs..
Rolling up the sleeve of his grubby cream shirt, Ananda Joshi shows off a deep scar, 3in long and 1in wide, where he was stabbed by an angry mob in this south Indian town last year.
His crime? The 47-year-old electrician’s assistant is an Untouchable, or Dalit, and he had used a public lavatory in an area inhabited by members of the higher levels of the Hindu caste system.
No one has been arrested, let alone convicted, nor does Mr Joshi expect them to be.
Such injustice is routine for India’s 165 million Dalits – who are considered beneath the lowest caste, and so unclean that they have traditionally been forbidden to visit Hindu temples or draw water from the same wells as higher castes.
India’s 1950 Constitution outlawed caste discrimination, and the world’s largest affirmative action scheme sets aside quotas of government jobs and university places for Dalits to try to correct the injustices of the past. Yet Dalit poverty and illiteracy rates are still above the national average, and police statistics show that on average three Dalit women are raped every day and a crime is committed against a Dalit every 18 minutes.
Even here in Tamil Nadu, one of India’s most developed states, discrimination and violence against Dalits is rife.
“I do not consider India independent, since we Dalits still live as though in a colony,” said Varatharaj Baskaran, a local lawyer and a member of the Alternative Front for Dalit Liberation.
“When the caste system is broken, we’ll be liberated.” He cited the case of Uthappuram, a village near Madurai, where high-caste residents have built a wall separating them from Dalit residents – and routinely beat up Dalits who bridge the divide.
In Sikkarasampalayam, another village near by, a 13-year-old girl was raped and killed in August because she was rumoured to be in a relationship with a boy from a higher caste, according to Mr Baskaran.
No one has been arrested or prosecuted for that either.
The Times
your views & opinions about the current affairs and social environment....
This artice from the Times was written this week, so the figures must be up to date.
True, the barriers are being slowly brought down, but much too slowly for many.
A country moves forward by recognizing its own failings and addressing them. Not by being in denial.
At some level there are castes in every country. It is soemtimes called tribulism or North/South/East/West divide. Most Indian people do not agree with the Caste system however it does exist. Therefore cannot be or should not be ignored.
It is fair to say that most people are racist. It is deep in us all. An example: is from the writer Queen Bee above. Probably without intention she/he has made a racist comment about the West. Honey, we do have culture and tradition by the truck load but just like you we have a few mindless jerks who love to cause trouble. Thanks for being nice.
Its in place skdkak. No need for any sorry's skdak at the most someone here will only accuse you of hijacking the thead...lol.
Shreeya, you cant blame them. Its their environment in which they grow that they end up like this. Their society has gone fom barbarism to degeneration without the usual phase of civilisation.
I mean look at their society...can they say they have any culture or tradtion? All that they are left is with ae drugs, guns, violence in school, racism in neighbourhoods, abortions and hooliganism etc.
Since they are brought up in such an environment their thought process has limited capacity and they cannot engage in intellectually stimulating debates or topics. Its just not possible for them to think strt.
And the caste system they talk of in India is what they percieve and what was prevalent in 60s and 70s. Its like when they start a topic they already make up their mind that the caste system is like this or that and then the invite views.
I am sure none of them are aware of mandal commission or reservations.
Dont now about this david baner thing but if it was some racist topic I d rather wish Goldum takes it up..lol
The fellow derives some sort of devilish pleasure in ripping apart these loosers.
this is a test post.
Checking if my new avtar is in place.
Sorry, for not sticking to topic.
shreeya and to add , Its never gonna be alright!! :)
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It is just a huge stereotype. People still think us as a country of snake charmers. They think we burn our daughters in every house as a hobby. They think every Indian goes and poops in Ganges. They think every Indian is a worst driver. And they just love this image as this image is 'best seller'. So it is going to remain forever, at least in QL.
It is the beauty of talking on a virtual forum. You can post whatever you like. Your face is always saved....lol
Everything gonna be alright!!!
Shreeya, i am rather new in here but was shocked to see the kind of racist articles being posted in such a forum.
The best part is such article are posted mostly by westerners on asians/other nationalities without realising the sensitivities involved and the reason given is to know more about ir culture or some thing like if you have it and we have posted it so why not admit it?
AT times i feel that I am not in Qatar but n some racist neighbourhood of some western country.
Shreeya :) Great memmory lol
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Tell them to search 'david banner' and see the Brits are also doing the same.
Then again there was Cuteydog, Gloopy, Penny, Coffinmum were all baned just because of her racist attitude...
Everything gonna be alright!!!
Not exactly Road t,
There are topics where I ve seen filipinos raising hue and cry due to some stupid aticle by some chinese journo in HK...then there is a thread where a Paki is asking why visas are not being issued to Pakistanis in Qatar and one of the contributors (local, I suppose as per his profile) has a gem of a answer - " because the HR person in many companies is an Indian !!!!!"
Its its racist, ppl wil scream racism. No escape from that.
freedom of speech should be accompanied with certain duties....
BUT one sided story.....Does anybody is aware of special reservation systems for SC, ST and other backward castes in India, please post both side of the story on the States effort to provide support to backward
communities. We accept that these are not sufficient measures and still need more improvements.
With time, it will solve the problem like Sati, child marriages, girl child-abortion, etc.....
Does anybody knows about Mayawati, the chief minister of UP? who is She?
Sincere request to gain more knowledge about India and its rich ancient culture, traditions, rather getting prejudice...
The problem for many is that racism only exists if a white person comments on another race.
Take this thread if Arien right at the start had said
"These are isolated incidents happening in a 1.5 billion country "
Then that would have kept the topic on track but no - people have to start crying racism rather than keeping it sensible.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
To the people who don't believe in free speech - stop posting ;)
It made you laugh loud? Do you usually laugh silently?! You have got this idea of 'bashing' in your head. I keep telling you no one cares about India enough to bash them. Why would I? You don't need us to bash you, your already third world! The bashing was done many years ago my friend, too late for the blame game. I just asked a question you couldn't answer..First you tried racism, that didnt work so now your on bashing. We aren't targeting you, sorry if it makes you cry out loud!
You have no life like me so your on Qatar Living..
That made me laugh loud H.Puttar.
What errors are you gonna eradicate by bashing in QL and that too sitting in another country.
People who have to do anything good . do so without doing any kind of blah blah
Harryput.. lol. Looks like harry is the surname eh??
Whatver the subject may be, If it can lead to insult and bash of a community/religion/nationality..... thats either immaturity or done with a purpose.
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I am proud of my country, but I see the errors in it. The difference between me and you is I highlight the errors then hope to eradicate them, you on the other hand are scared to admit them or share them it seems, so we cannot learn from you and you cannot fix them!
You have no life like me so your on Qatar Living..
HarryPutter. who is not proud his/her country.
I am sure you too would be.
Yes we are the greatest nation but dont like to boast about it.
We do have a lot of problems and we are doing better than many in our league of nations.
Why are you Indians flattering yourself? India bashing?! Like we'd go through the trouble of putting an underlying message in a post to belittle India! You act like your the greatest country and we want to put you down because...ummmm... (fill in your reason for us supposedly 'hating' on you plz)! If we wanted to India bash, we'd just leave it as it is, you guys are bashing yourself just fine it seems.. Go moan somewhere else please this thread is meant to be a way of undestanding a different culture better!
You have no life like me so your on Qatar Living..
skdkak - You are going to see them more and more in the coming years buddy , and you know why.
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I think India bashing is back in fashion on QL.
Did see such surge in India bashing a lot recently under some or the other pretext and under diff topics.
Some has to be in disguise to stand up and talk- what a pity.
Cast system was part of the 5000 year old culture of the nation and it still exists. But the descriminations are no more, and those castes which were considered as the lower level ones are having reservations and priority in education and employment since decades.
These are isolated incidents happening in a 1.5 billion country which can be raised in to a debate if you are keen to insult and bash the country. Good luck
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racist against coloureds in South Africa! They are even not seen as affirmative action candidates. So yeah, IMHO, racism is everywhere & not reserved to certain races!
The future is made of the same stuff as the present - Simone Weil.
Trust me Harry, I am not the only one to see what this thread is - pure full fo racism and bashing.
The man asked a valid question and Indians started crying like babys. Grow up and answer the question. Why should he move the topic because you don't have an answer?!All the people want to know is if there is a cast system still? Is it playing a big part in society or is it something the media over-reacts about? If you have the answers, share please :) If not then don't come in bringing stuff like Stephen Lawrence up.. Totally different. Racism is an individual or a few individuals not liking someons heritage ,skin colour or race. Your cast system as explained in the article first posted, seems to be a whole Country/Society accepting that some people will always be poor?! It is totally different and pretty ignorant of you too try and mix the two! But like Geroge Bush taught us, when you don't know an answer DEFLECT!
You have no life like me so your on Qatar Living..
I guess that sort of things happens in every country where racism exists...not only south africa.
There are many instances of Latinos against latinos, Chinese agaisnt chinese and whites against whites....
I remember being shocked years ago, when I discovered that although the whites in South Africa were racist against the "coloureds" and "Blacks"; The "coloureds" themselves were racist against the Blacks..
causes and symptoms...finally observe our actions and reactions, identify the reasons for these change behaviour, what makes it change? will surely give you an answer.....
Im sure I read somewhere that is hardwired into humans to be wary of things that are different, just look at a list of long numbers and then another where there are highlight, 5 number shte same etc or some distiguishing mark and you are instantly drawn to this. This can then be reinforced and applied to people through our peers etc as per victors comment.
The line between criticism and racism is a thin one though as it is difficult to know someones real intentions.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
To the people who don't believe in free speech - stop posting ;)
The "mis-deeds" of a few or our own misunderstandings, colour our judgement and make us generalize and shape our views..
We humans brought up with certain skills, intelligence and good/bad habits inherited by our experience, environment and learnings.
Certain can mould with special learnings, honing skills and efforts....
BUT there are certain views/values are almost difficult to CHANGE these are INBUILT Values inherited by our Elders and Parents thought us at very young age of our life....
The roots of racism begin from the home.. Our immediate environment and the views of our parents / mentors can have a great bearing.
that I is better than you
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HE WHO DARES WINS
Thankyou Victor for rising above the troll, and writing real answers.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
To the people who don't believe in free speech - stop posting ;)
You creep :)
Lol @ you guys....n all the bwst for your quest for Indian culture.
Yes UKEng.....seems u ve gone thru the entire post and have come to a conclsion.
There was no "approach"..
It was just an article in The Times which seemed interesting for discussion.
Obviously not !
Incredible India..
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HE WHO DARES WINS
Well trolls usually do.
Queen Bee this is only one part of India, obviously you dont look at a country based on one apsect!! You cant discuss all of India in one thresd,
Even in the link it says "Although some educated Indians tell non-Indians that caste has been abolished or that "no one pays attention to caste anymore," such statements do not reflect reality."
All countries have dark secrets.
Its funny as we have problems in the UK of which many I'll happily agree with outsiders on the need to change, juvenile deliquency, alchol abuse etc but when it comes to other countries you wont discuss and it gets hijacked.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
To the people who don't believe in free speech - stop posting ;)
GOldumdm...lol you give up so fast...
seriously if u were a lawyer, I d hate to be pitted against you....lol.
Harry/Road tester....frankly I am speechless at the approach taken by you to know about our culture.....
Knowing about caste system will NEVER teach you guys about Indian culture....you are barking up the wrong tree.
No it does not..
Why do i need to start a new thread - I said I wanted to know about the caste system in India - why start a new dicsussion when one is here?
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
Harry....you may have marched 2 times or 2 hundred times.
That does not absolve UK and the western nations of racism.
Roadtester..if gold is hiding here by not starting a new thread, what are you doing wanting to know about our culture under a post which is on caste system. Obviously there is more to Indian culture than caste system.
And you think by askig questons on caste sstem you ll gain knoweldge about indina culture.....i guess its you who is on marijuana.
Why havent you started a new thread about your quest for Indian culture? Arent you too hiding???
The fact that you won't start a new thread and want to hide here means you were just hijacking and trolling.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
Just to make things clear, I have marched twice in support of Steven Lawrence.
Stephen's murder was purely and simply a result of racism. It was and still is a stain on British society and our legal system.
Start a new discussion - dont hide it here under the Indian caste system which is not related to Stephen Lawrance.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
I never started this thread - Harry did - I came here wanting knowlege on India and all i got was a non-indian trolling about the UK.
This thread is for Indian sto tell us the real story.
p.s still waiting for goludumdum to start a new forum discussion on racism in uk.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
I find it strange that you find it OK to discuss India launching space craft, winning at cricket etc etc, but as soon as something like this comes along, you take it as India bashing..
Road tster, their is a certain way of knowing about any country's culture and traditions.
If you seriously wanted to know about Indian culture and traditon, you should have started a new thread inviting all indians to contribute.
No point asking Golud since I dont think as a non Indian he can contrbute. Having said that, I agree to his responses.
With so much information on the internet - outsiders like me need real indians to give the real story.
If goldumdum was being intelligent he might have told us what the positives there are with the caste system and the difficultuies in removing it, but obviusly not just trolling as usual.
START A NEW THREAD ON RACISM IN UK
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
goludumbdumb START A NEW THREAD on Racism on the UK - NOT HERE!!! You are wrecking (hijacking) the thread - im not hiding at all - Rules of QL is to stay on topic
I come here to ask REAL indians what there views are and some of the background history.
"road testes asking about India's castesystem in QL is like asking for a Honda sparepart in a Toyota show room."
- are you smoking marijuana?
How are you supposed to learn about another culture if you don't ask question?
p.s thanks to the decent people for the two the links.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
LOL harry99
Of all links you posted news item.
do you have any credible source of information like a link of site by Indian government.
I REPEAT: why & how does Qatar care for such news. If at all you have to bash any country . do it in correct forum like politics forum.
Tell me one country which has no Racism. I would like to migrate.
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SKDAk,
People like these first start a demeaning thread. Then when they are shown whats happening in thier bak yard, they get cornered and then find a way to escape.
So suddenly the topic shifts from Indian caste system, Indian Govts denial.
Then the justification comes in form that since people in their country occupy director position so what if few Stephen Lawrences occur and blah blah blah.
I think Goldum has given thm enough so lets spare the stinkies.
Sorry, you must have misunddrstood me.. I said that in my own opinion casteism is the same as racism..
As you can see from the following link, the Indian government does not agree with this similarity..
http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/racism/010828.caste.html
Yes Roadt,
You can go thru those two excellent links given by harry.
One is from the US congress library and the other from gibbs magazine....both american sources.
I believe Americans are expert in Indian Caste system just they way you are an expert in the Stephen Lawrence case.
Thanks for the info, People (harry) think it is only India that has such news and episodes.
Harry: Now you are saying even Indian government is racist. Then how are come so many non-elite (as per your nothion) people are in such high positions across India in private and governments
I found the following two links of interest..
http://www.gibbsmagazine.com/Caste%20System.htm
http://countrystudies.us/india/89.htm
MODS - Gold just comes to troll all the time.
My response was to him NOT to the original post about India. Thats why u think i have not read the post. Gold is bringing up one case, which none of you know the details of and this is being blown up into another shilpa shetty - jade goody debacle.
He just brings up the UK to TROLL. In the UK we have people of all ethnicities in the government jobs, its not perfect but better than most countries. We even have quotas that government aims to fill to make the government and private sector have a range of people.
We are discussing India gold -start a new thread on the stephen lawrance case if you wish.
I thought this was a dicussion about the indian caste system which I would like to know more about. i.e how old is it? when did it start.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
I thought I answered the question regarding Racism and casteism.
I find it strange that you take offence at the article..In no way is it "Indian Bashing".. It is a topic that generates discussion in India itself..
Roadtester,
I think gold is not from india as he has mentioned in his post which u ve obviously not read. SO my advice first read the thread fully.
since i am an Indian i can answer your queston in affrmative. YES we have people working in India and talking of levels....we have people upto Minister level...so I guess its your country which needs to catch up with India since you are stuck at Direcor level only.
Besides u ask gold why is he trollig racism in UK? YOu never had the ba..s to ask harry why is he trolling subject of castesim?That too in Qatar!!!
And your response is equally pathetic when u say the problem in Stepehn lawrence case was there was no witness.....lol how convenient. Obviously ur govt found it initially to admit that racism exists. SO the easy way out was - NO witness.
But the facts did come out. Read Golds post again...slowly and carefuly.
Obviously u and Harry got bashed by Gold's response that made you come with such lame answers...
The least you could do is not copy what Gold had written about you asking a queston which he cannot answer.
Roadtester it is the same in India. Do you really ask an Indian doctor in Gulf what is your religion/caste ?
In the Uk we have people of all ethnicities and gender doing different jobs up to director level. Is it the same in your country?
Fools ask questions which wise fear to answer.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
Goludumbdumb why are you trolling the thread up with racism in UK. The biggest problem with the stephen lawrance case was that NO WITNESS WOULD TESTIFY as they feared for there lives, to a lesser extent the police botched the investigation. We discussing india, please stay on topic.
I knew about certain castes not being allowed government jobs as they were deemed 'succesful' and not in need of any help.
I want to know how old is the cast system in india?
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
The caste system to me is same as racism..However, the Indian government actually does not agree to this.. They say that it is an ancient system which categorizes society according to occupation - jati.
Harry is busy bashing
sorry for my poor knowledge
Caste system is a beleif of the Majority of the Indians of the Hindu religion. Even if they change the state laws, they can not change the beleifs or can they...
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HE WHO DARES WINS
these people need jobs but dont want to slog.
No one on this planed really likes to study. If one keeps playing with marbles all his/her childhood, how can they expect jobs and higher technical jobs.
Check the status of IIT's in last 2 years, its on record that maximum number of drop outs in IIT's have happened in last few years due to lowering of selection criteria.
You might enter an institute but how are you gonna cope with studies.
"Positive discrimination" works on the short term, but can cause problems in the long term. It begins to allienate and antagonize people..
The caste system is entrenched in the society and it is through education and legislation that it can be addressed.
Roadtester, the caste system is as outdated as the 'burning of female witches in europe'.
Skdkak, this is exactly what I am trying to say.
For those who don't know much about India, on Gandhi's philosophy of equality to all, the harijans or backward classes are given a special 10% to 30% quota in all the jobs. This means that for every government job advertised (from doctors to engineers to adminstrative officers to police ....you name it) there is a 30% job reservation for backward classes. For the elite classes they have to score competitively to qualify for the same. This system is suppose to balance the society as members from backward classes will have better jobs and not the routine lowly paid jobs.
Was the caste system influnced or changed in any way by British colonial rule, or was it always in exisitence?
I just find it so sad that they still wish to cling on to this system.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
u r wrong there mom-me
Tamil Nadu has the highest quota reservation for all down trodden people. Minimum of 50% in that state.
This even before Mandal commission was implemented across India for +30% reservation.
And here I thought that the elite high class brahmin were leaving the state of TamilNadu as most of the jobs have been taken by the so called 'harijans' or lower hindu class under the mandatory 30% reservation criteria.
Such atrocities will continue to occur until the majority actually stand up and say enough and the judiciary / police start prosceuting people carrying out these acts.
Indian bashing? Only if you count Indians literally bashing Indians.
Keep your eyes and ears open and shout.
Good idea..
Let's close our eyes and ears to the suffering of people (black, white, pink, brown) because it may harm the image of our nation..
Few things worth mentioning:
1. This topic should be in a diff forum rather than here, this sounds like a typical India bashing topic.
2. As for injustice: who says dalits in India are the only ones who are not treated as equals.
3. Last but not the least, how is Qatar bothered and/or interested about such news happening in some diff country??????