You can do it, ...

You cannot "declare clearance" if you’re not officially "clean", otherwise if "authorities" decided to examine your claim and found out you harbored "bad luggage on" all along, the consequences are already known to you and prescribed in the "book of law".

Please rethink my quoted words in the context of your question, only that God’s forgiveness overrides our imperfectness, which makes Him perfect and leaves us to pursue purification of ourselves and towards others for humanity’s sake.

Salam

You are right

In the first part, so let me correct myself:

In Islam, God forgives what's between a Muslim and Him (e.g. prayer, fasting, ... etc)

For the second part, elaborating more:

But if a Muslim does something wrong to another person, however, God doesn't forgive, unless that person forgives him first. God is the judge and He is just. As you probably know, during any court (Jugdement day), Judge (God in this case) has the highest authority.

I will try to find a good english translation of the actual Hadith (i.e. words of prophet, PBUH). Happy, can you help me on that?

_______________________________________________

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

I beg to differ with you on your first paragraph. One has to undo the harm they caused or reverse the detrimental effects of their wrongdoing, where possible, to earn forgiveness and show will for remorse, otherwise it’s deliberate deceit and a criminal act in some situations.

Salam

I am little confused..

I was given to understand that God forgives all EXCEPT Shirk.. (polytheism)

Secondly, you say "God doesn't forgive, unless that person forgives you."

That means that an individual is more powerful than God.. That cannot be !

In Islam, God forgives what's between you and Him. Doing something wrong to another person, however, God doesn't forgive, unless that person forgives you.

It's just that some people don't even know about their own religion.

_______________________________________________

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

with 'some' religious people from any faith they can do wrong and then go to their holy place and ask forgivness and everything will be ok; when really it is not.

Crimes and sins should not be committed at all by anybody.

I was raised Catholic and the number of times I have heard of men beating their wives and then going into confession and being 'forgiven'.

I am sure people from other religious have heard similar stories.

Practacing a religion and being seen as religious does automatically make you the BETTER person.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

Non-belivers are no less moral or ethical then belivers. There are good and bad in each group.

I agree:

1- We are all humans

2- In any group of people you would find "the good, the bad and the ugly" :D; all types of people.

I'm just probing the "moral/ethical basis" of non-believers, bearing in mind that they would usually talk about the "relativity of morals/ethics"

_______________________________________________

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

I said religious , not Muslims ...

Now, reading the rest of your post to reply :D

_______________________________________________

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

Power to the non believers, it’s a great feeling to have and hold.

hahaha, I just checked your QL profile (I did before), but forgot where you've worked. So, you’re on Anti- QL medication now?? Something like Anti-biotics, but beware the more intake the worse the immunity..:).

Ehem…back to the topic, no hijacking or anything.

Salam

No, it's not closed yet, I just re-opened it…:P

By the way, I wasn’t reminding you of anything, above, it was rather a wake call for me. Well, you know what, it’s not such a bad idea to take up the preaching career, everybody seems to be doing it these days..:)

Only when I’ve perfected myself though.

Amen

Salam

Closed.

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

William Blake

Ah, you mean the discussion between me and Happy? That wasn't meant for you. I thought you were referring to the main post.

Pls note that I wrote "believer" as the original post, not "Muslim"

Bad communication I assume, make the post clearer next time

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

William Blake

You can't teach experience...

If you are a non-believe, then hell has no meaning for you

If you are a believer, then your answer would be YESSSSSS

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

William Blake

You can't teach experience...

Dear Happy:

Thank you for this reminder

جزاك الله خيرا

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

William Blake

Insisting with no repentance or intent to halt is a lame justification, I might lose my last breath before I got the proper chance for atonement, that’s very dangerous.

Would you believe that some operate and justify their sins on that foundation?

Salam

And who isn't?

We're just trying our level best :)

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

William Blake

"You can run but you can't hide", very true.

But I can count on his forgiveness and still commit it over and over again. Bad, bad thinking..:)

Salam

It seems we're a minority on this thread. Expected though.

Fubar:

I agree with you except for the cars part. Anyways, this thread talks about the cars issue:

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/481678

MagicDragon:

If THAT's what they were up to, they wouldn't have missed!

Withnail:

There is such a thing as "Muslims by ID", or "by the name". In other words, Muslims that don't know even the basics about their religion teachings, like:

"All people are as equal as the teeth of a comb,There is no virtue (nothing better or superior) to an Arab over a non-Arab nor white over colored except by the fear Of God"

How would you expect a person who believes in these words to be committing all the bad things you've listed?

+*+do first to yourself+*+

Since you've survived their 'attacks' their "thank God" was a bit too early.

I agree with Withnail.

There are decent moral people who would never do anything 'wrong' (legally or religiously) who are religious and non-religious.

Then there are plenty of terrible people who break the law and treat other humans like dirt who are both religious and non-religious.

I don't think it's true to say that people who commit crimes are all non-religious, or that all religious people don't commit crimes.

Most of the drivers who have tried to run me off the road and endangered my life have had 'Thanks God' stickers on their car.

why do you dance around the issue?

i gave my opinion. i believe that true believers are good, and i believe that many non-believers are good.

i think many who would label themselves believers are not really believers, and are not good.

why don't you engage in a rational discussion instead of preaching and trying to appear intelligent? i am not using us or them thinking, i am sharing my opinion. discussion and debate are based on individuals sharing their opinions.

condescending to people is a very risky game - unless you really have the goods to back it up, you end up looking like a fool.

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

You are still using the "us and them" type of thinking, like many others, even atheists

How about being objective?

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

William Blake

LOL Dracula

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

William Blake

.

.

i didnt do it!

and I'll not do it again! :)

.

.

i shared my opinion, which is based on my experiences.

there was nothing disrespectful about my reply.

in fact, judging by your post, it would seem that my opinion is the opposite of yours, which is what you proclaim leads to learning.

am i confused, or do you not believe what you say you do?

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

Well I was trying to have a respectful fruitful conversation here, but I guess humans are humans anywhere, regardless of their set of beliefs

I don't blame you though, because you've seen lots of imposing.

But then, we also get LOTS of bashing

So, I'll probably leave it at that, and ...

One last comment:

You NEVER learn something from discussions with people of the same ideas.

Enjoy happy same-ideas conversations

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

William Blake

because there is no shortage of believers here showing a complete lack of empathy towards their fellow men and women, driving like a$$holes, putting peoples lives at risk, sexually harassing women, treating hired help like modern day slaves, etc.

religion only makes people better when they internalize the values. when it is ritualized it does nothing, and in fact one could argue it makes people worse because they believe that going through the motions means they can be jerks the rest of the time.

non-believers who believe in respecting their fellow human beings are better than many of the "believers" i have met.

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

No

"Ali Baba and 40 thieves" are now "Ali Baba and 30 thieves" ; 10 were laid off.

brite, this IS the "Politics, Culture and Religion" forum, right?

Besides, I'm merely asking a question and start a discussion, not imposing, hopefully appreciated

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

William Blake

Another religious post..

Exit stage left :(

Not really.

No.

Yes. :D

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

William Blake

Nope.