Women's rights in West - Margaret Thatcher

lol..

CBD - Are you sure??? Can you prove it????

lol

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Ashwin..u r the boss :x

If you say so :-))))))))))))))))) x

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

PCG - You know wht...

Arguments here..End not when one listens and accepts the others point of view.. but when one gets tired on typing.... :) I love QL...

CBD - Get a Life..:) Neither anyone agrees with you nor you agree to anyone... Then why these text Riots...

m I hijacking your forum again ????

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

As I said no harm done.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

PCG..

You are absolutely right..and the topic may have not be of that quality..

As an Easterner, I get concerned when people look at women leadership roles in this region and how it translates into women's rights. If you argue the two has nothing to do with each other then it is fine.

I just tried to shed light on the topic as a whole which led us to various topics.

However, you may agree that women are not as politically involved as men in the West.

I think you agree to that women are discriminated against round the globe.

I would submit to your last statement to:

"What I can say is this, I would have researched my claim of West/East division a little more than you did.

We can all feel insulted by somebody claiming a falsehood about our community/country/traditions etc. Sometimes it is because we are ignorant of that culture or some people want to cause trouble."

maybe i did not do enough research and I did not. But this should also show that some people did not do proper research too.

most of people here give thier opinions based on personal experience which cannot be generalised.

Yet, we still see confirmations!

I would accept your argument that we cannot judge each other unless we take an academic and proper basis to thoroughly study the subject.

In case I have offended you as a westerner, I deeply regret it & I am sorry but this was not the intention.

If we go back to your original idea regarding your post; you seemed to be saying, the West views the East as not respecting womens rights and your example was the UK has only had one female leader, the USA has never had a female leader and yet the East has. Am I right in thinking this was your premis???

I don't think anybody has the right to say that East or West is better. Why try and divide further when division is already a massive problem. Both East and West have heaps of problems.

I have shown though, the West has many women leaders, either those that have been elected or inherited the throne. I can't comment on Canadas problems as I know nothing about Canada. I can't really add anything to the mix regarding American politics.

What I can say is this, I would have researched my claim of West/East division a little more than you did.

We can all feel insulted by somebody claiming a falsehood about our community/country/traditions etc. Sometimes it is because we are ignorant of that culture or some people want to cause trouble.

With you I think (like most of us can) just got out of your depth a little.

No harm done I am sure. Quite an interesting topic.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

PCG..

execuse my ignorance..I may have misunderstood..

I think we are in agreement then..

I have never stated that West is better than East at all. In fact all you have typed above (apart from your reference to planets) is not reflective of what I have put at all. You need to read what I have put carefully.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

PCG..

Yes it is our planet :) we live as we please.

We are a society that adopts Islam and has it culture too.

We do have problems and discriminations against women too.

West has it is own problems too. Canada is a horrible example.

So If women are discriminated in thw West as the East; what are the basis of stating West is better than East.

Stop talking about laws please especially when they are not enforced or implemented.

Canada has nation wide murders against women. How in the hell did the Western policy prevent discrimination against women? let alone social preferences against women.

If any of you does not believe Islam and women's rights can not coexist, then you have a serious problem and don't accept us as a society or culture in which case, you cannot judge women's rights.

I repeat over and over again: on balance things are more or less the same.

a vedio for you guys:

&feature=PlayList&p=F722E1F0536DB3B0&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=46

little private planet.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

Women's rights better in the 'East' than in the "West'???

What planet is this dude on!??

I suggest you google first of all Women Prime Ministers, I did and there are loads; from Canada, Portugal, Norway, Sri Lanka, Rawanda and a host of other countries.

Then staying on that link, look at all the Elected Women in office.

Women are in charge in so many places in the world.

As for the 'row' that has errupted over maternity leave. What has that got do with East/West perception of anything?

A lot of women don't need maternity leave as they either stay at home or have a 'network' to help them raise the children or they simply can't afford to not work and YES that includes all us (wealthy) people in the west.

Labour laws are put in place to protect citizens from employers. Not to give them a free holiday to get used to being tortured through lack of sleep ;-))))))))

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

had a female Prime Minister 15-20 years ag0.

Scarlett - What the F??

I was asking.. not judging... Was the Question mark after the two party system invisible...

I was asking whether it is a two party System Democracy in America??? There are democracies with Two party Systems....

n I don google everything for God sake... No one does...

If tht was case every body would be a Einstein...

You know tht answer - Answer it.. else leave at as it is not for you...

"research and Google it" these are so often posts seen on QL..

Even I say tht .. but when Question is really worth tht answer...

Thing is I didn know.... neither did I ever care.. wht was system in America.... Has the International media ever spoken of any other party... are they so good. tht they are worth a Google search???

I m still not in any mood of text fight with you.. as I have a gut feeling that the Adrenalin Rush was provoked thks to CBDs stance...

About Maternity Leave issue... Other countries it is more flexible n liberal than wht it is in America.... tht is all I wanted to say...

And about abuse n oppression of women.... I know happens every where.. and no comments on Middle East, near by coountries and your beloved America.. I have not seen n researched much..

but I ll share with you all how badly they where treated in India.. n how things are changing...

but later.. in Office now..... :(

You lucky female..

shall get back to you when I am back home..

you better wait till then...

jus in case this sounds humorous... I am damn serious... :)

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

biogoted, liar, and player and as far as uneducated..I don't know, but the other ones I DO know you are. You have one of the most closed minds I have ever encountered on QL.

You mention that no one will give an inch to their arguement...well sweetie, you are the master of that!!! Takes one to know one and yo have pointed that fact out so many times in this one thread.

NOW, I am off...what a waste of my time this was...

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

that is a typical sample...

defending some garbage information and then throw inappropriate impolite words...

your are the fourth of 5th person who left this thread impolitely...

why can you not be acceptable enough to accept others and smile and leave nice words even if we disagree??

if education does not translate in your words and action..then hell to that education.

I am really wasting so much of time on people who are not willing to give an inch on thier argument..

I met liars, players, variables, bigoted, uneducated, etc etc etc

All in this thread!

My argument is East is as good as West in women's rights but no one agrees!

If I am bigoted I would take it to the extreme and state East is better than West (which I think is the case but due to better communication gave a compromise).

scarlett..

you were leaving so what happened! i was hopeless case wasn't I?

intermittency is a sign of a doubt and when in doubt better leave out.

shall we talk about all the prostitutes that are in the Middle East, much less Qatar, but are "NOT" here??? Sorry...I am laughing now..

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

I wish you the same...May happiness fill your heart and surrounds every moment of your life..

Have a nice day!

being sucked into your vortex of a thread that has no hope of ever becoming anything of value. So...I am off to enjoy the day...wish you the best!!

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

scarlett..

if it is about right of judgement. then you don't have that either...why cannot you keep your posts neat and up to the point..i get scattered trying to reply to each point.

I have westerner friends too! if this is ur fuel! I lived in the West long enough! if this is ur fuel!

Not mentioning the prostitution business that spreads throughout the West...it happens severly widely no matter what your law says..

You are very wrong with your sweeping statement there my friend. I think you are the one that does not understand our culture in the West and by your very first posting are actually inciting criticism of the west and the way we do things.

I have no issue with the way things are done over here. I consider it none of my bloody business.

You cannot put in a post that criticises and not expect some critiism back. You cannot ask for proof and then not accept that proof once given.

Suffice to say, there are major differences in our cultures. None better none worse.

You seem to think you can spout our laws at us and rip them to shreds and yet won't accept that some can look in and not like.

One of the differences I think most find hard to swallow is that religion does not rule some. We in the West can be religious and follow the laws of the religion but we also have to follow the law of the law too; they are not intertwined as the laws OVER here SEEM to be.

You have chosen to ignore the fact that many times in the thread people have given you examples of many leaders who are women. I have yet to see a woman rule in the Gulf. Have you? We all know of Mrs Ghandi and Mrs Bhutto. (those are the only 2 I can quote). The UK had Margaret Thatcher.

If you have a problem with the West insulting your way of life; don't ask for understanding by openly insulting something that you seem to have very little understanding off.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

what the media has to say on issues, CBD...you are attempting to judge me and you have NO right.

What I have learned about the Muslims is directly FROM Muslim friends here. Not all of them are Qatari but also from Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, ect.

You have no way of understanding our way of life...have you lived in America?? I'd say no

And there you go again...going off track and getting defensive when confronted with something or someone that offers a differing opinion and making sense...you are such a coward hiding behind your religion...be a man and step up. Most of the Muslims I know are very educated and not afraid to speak what they know or listen to others and perhaps learn a different viewpoint.

You go ahead honey and try to keep up with the REAL world...so far you aren't having much luck...My wish for you is that you someday allow Allah to open your eyes and be out of your pre conceived corner of it is really quite small.

As far as your opinion of my cousin...yes, please keep it to yourself as it doesn't mean one iota of anything to me.

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

no no...

I don't agree with my dear ones being models...

and I will not degrade your cousin because of what she does...i accept it because she is American and in an American society and does not have my culture...and I will not consider her an enemy because of what she is. no way!

to be a model and if she is a model she can CHOOSE what she wishes to wear on camera. That is the difference. Some women are shy, some are not.

Just because she chooses to pose in swinsuits doesn't make her any less, at least not in our society. We respect women...and know that most men have the ability to restrain themselves when they see a female in a bikini.

As far as my having someone dear to me be a model..I have one...one of my favorite cousins who used to model in New York. She is one of the nicest people you'd ever meet. Her morals are impeccable and she's now married with a lovely son. See you are taking your own personal views of things(religious) and placing them upon other nationalities...

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

scarlett...

it comes down to the fact that you and others don't understand our way of life and don't agree with it...

the difference between me and you is that I understand your way of life but do not agree with it...

However, i let you live your life even though i don't agree with it and I keep my mouth shut not pretending that you may not compete with us...because I am realistic..

but basically..you listen to media...not happy with our culture...and build false statements based on a wrong understand and acceptance of other societies..ending up in lies field.

to do that...since they are under their control.

Back home, when you reach the age of 18, you are considered an adult and can do what you wish.

Unfortunately, abuse happens everywhere...at least there are women like the author of the article that are fighting to change the laws so that they will protect woman against abuse, LEGALLY.

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

Should ne there protection of young lovely girls who go naked to promote sales?

would you love to see someone dear to you in that position? I would not...

no one does such a job unless he/she is needy which is exploitation..

West allows this..We do not!

We forbid merchants from doing such a thing..do you?

those Qatari girls are not forbidden by law..it is just thier father who prevents them..you think of this as the american who could kill or beat his wife while law is trying to prevent him from doing so..

http://www.westcoastleaf.org/userfiles/file/Vancouver%20Sun%20Shelagh%20Day.pdf

do you honestly have Super Glue in your head that you are so stuck on the article (which you took out of context!) about the Canadian issue? What it is talking about is CRIME in Canada...NOT women's rights. It was an unfortunate heading for that article. Violence against male and female are rampant. But...as was pointed out to you earlier, much earlier but you chose to ignore it, is that it happens here as well and proportionally its close to the same.

NOW as far as women's rights to be free of abusing males...yes, the western world has problems with that. Personally I know that the US can only issue restraining orders if a husband abuses his wife...which are basically useless because he will breaks the order and beats the ever living crap out of her or kill her. THEN its an after the fact sad statement that oops...guess it was worse than we thought. BUT, it goes back to the old views that women are PROPERTY of males. At least we DO have laws in effect that are attempting to change things. Do you?

So now you are deciding what's fair and what's not fair? Seems youdo that when you are losing an arguement. I've seen that many times throughout this thread.

Want to know something else about lack of freedoms? I know of several young women here that have finished their university degrees only to be told they can't work, by their fathers. Yep..freedom is alive and well.

f you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

did you come across the article which states the UN is shocked by women's rights in Canada?

It is not fair to focus on women's unable to driven in Saudi while skipping nationwide murders & poor social system against women in Canada :)

I know what I know from experience. If I wanted to get more involved in this discussion, I would research more of the issues, but from reading this thread completely through (which took all of last night and some this morning) I can see it will do no good as you have your head between two blinders and refuse to see even the slightest glimmer of anything that MIGHT make you look to the side.

I wasn't speaking only to you when I said to research the political parties..that was basically to Ashwin...At least popcorngirl has the good sense to say she knew nothing about our processes. You two made generalizations that you were accusing the westerners of doing. Remember...stone throwing while living in glass houses isn't a good idea.

As far as American lagging on maternity leave...personally, i don't think it is. Maternity leave is for 6 weeks, NOt 8 weeks, actually. Women are physically able to go back to work (and other wifely duties) after 4 weeks. Women have the choice to either put their child in nursery or stay at home. I chose to stay at home because I thought it better for my children. Yes, the money was tight but we got through the rough years and my boys are better for it. Personally, I think that one parent should stay with the child but it can be either one...not just the mother. I also think that men should get at least 2 weeks maternity leave as it can be very challenging for a woman who just gave birth, especially if its Cesearian, to handle taking care of a newborn without help.

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

duplicate!

scarlett..

you are worse than us..I have illustrated earlier that US has many polotical parties and made comments about the Green party..you may have been taught to pick and choose and take things out of context...you Research our posts too!

If you want to speak on the American political parties, guys then at least RESEARCH it!! There are more than 2 parties involved in the American democratic process. There are the Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians and several others.

Ashwin...I swear you are just as bad at looking at things as CBD is...pull your head out also...

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

Scarlett..

i honestly like your post except the last paragraph.

you talked about so many issues in your post. It would be better to tackle them one at a time. let me know if you are interested.

If we are going to criticise societies, let us have good data to use.

back to women driving in Saudi. This is one issue by which you may not rank nations.

Is not USA lagging in maternity leave of women? this is an issue on which we are leading.

what would you say to that?

Women are STILL banned from driving as of last month, in Saudi. I just spoke with the Saudi embassy because I needed to drive my dog to Abu Dhabi and was informed BY THEM that I could NOT drive myself, I had to have a male RELATIVE with me or I could hire someone from my husband's company to drive me. Now..that being said, I had a friend who I trust implicitly and my husband approved of and Saudi STILL would NOT let me go through its borders without my husband or company driver..much less ME driving. Women HAVE to cover completely there, regardless of their nationality or religion.

Your views on what women's rights are, are totally skewed. You are mistaking rights with absence of violent acts(read that CRIMES). As far as why America doesn't have a female president..well, after the slaves were freed in America after the Civil War, the black people got to vote 50 YEARS before women...but with protests, marches and appealing to the courts, women won the voting rights as well. Women back then were STILL considered property and had NO rights. Women's rights are still a work in progress every where in the world but the western world is still ahead of the Middle East in that respect.

Do I think women in the West have more rights than over here? yes...and I'll give you some very simple examples that I've personally experienced over here. When we were having issues with the bank over credit cards not working, hubby sent me to bank to fix it. Turned out that I was not ALLOWED to do so without him being with me, even though the account is in BOTH of our names. Back home there would be no question of that at all. A girl friend and I traveled to Oman for vacation and at the visa desk, we were asked "Where are your husbands?" The guy gave us such a hassle it took the fun out of the trip for the rest of the day.

I know women here in Qatar that are forced to cover with hajib, not because they WANT to but because their husband or father insists upon it. There is a HUGE difference in those that wish to cover for their own religious choice.

Those of you who are trying to enlighten this guy are battering your head against a brick wall. He's got his head up his anus and doesn't want to look at anything that might even resemble a logical conversation. If only God would put him in a female body for 12 months and place him back here in the Middle East for him to experience what its like, I would be willing to bet his tone would change dramatically.

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

Ashwin...

It means that West is no better than East in women's rights and consequently need to absorb the shock and deal with it.

Furthermore, whenever you hear westerners, either governments or people, condemn Eastern societies for opressing women, your duty as an Easterner is to give them your point of view which I am sure they will not like unless they are 'critical thinkers' as some claim.

I have no problems with anyone on this earth and I am not racist but it is a fact that most of East's critiques originate from the West ignorantly.

Let me know if this is not clear yet and I will be happy to explain it forever.

CBD - Pls pardon my ignorance but wht is tht suppose to mean??

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Even Steven

PCG & CBD -

Ya PCG even my reaction was very same when I forst read this on some of the forum on QL.. no point in talking about the person who had posted.. thing is... she was right......

Proof CBD my friend.. is here...

The Maternity Leave system is not rated good when compared to in many other countries...

It does not promote Females to have a family life if they are career oriented....

Maternity Leave is only for 2 months...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-07-26-maternity-leave_x.htm

&

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/423397/maternity_leave_is_america_behind_the.html

While also there have been issues raised when the maternity leave system was to be revised...

The Womens Lobby criticized the present set up to be male Dominated... the corporate world .. and are not taking necessary steps to make it suitable also for the growing female labor force....

Answering there needs are equally important

Refer this

http://www.blogjump.eu/index.php?2009/04/01/1580-reconciliation-of-private-and-professional-life-should-maternity-leave-pay-the-price-of-the-failure-to-engage-men-in-their-share-of-care

And then we criticize a particular religion for down fall of family oriented life style...

The policies should be supportive for people to come up with families.. not live jus for the Job sake....

the Corporate World is a Male Dominated Sector ... And it is not very willing to promote paid maternity leave.... in country like America...... For oblivious Reasons.. Nothing against females but see no profit or Gain in giving ladies what they right fully deserve and need..... the HR fellow has to justify his Salary..lol

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Ashwin..can you prove it?

What the fuck is that about??? Would love to see what men would do if they had to go through what we did. Jesus Christ they would take forever off!!!!!!!!!!!Sorry to all the rare sympathetic men (man) out there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

I really hope it does.... All the best for tht...

I am not a feminist.... :) ...

But Tht would mean both are strong n equal enough to respect each other....... If not out of choice then out of Compulsion..

I think if we understand n respect the differences.. tht too shall solve the issue.....

It was a shock to me... in America Men have problem women getting Maternity leave.... W T F...

Neither looking forward for Female Dominance....

Can't live in a Pink world pls... :)

Where Buying a cute hand bag n shoe for the employees shall be a more imp issue thn giving salaries on time.... :)

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

PCG - lol..... Yap... It is a Man's World....

whether people except it...like it... or not....

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

It is, but do you know, it will change..............eventually.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

I don't know if it is. Perhaps should google it. I know nothing of American Politics so therefore keeping my trap shut.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

Ashwin..

this is exactly my point!! West should not accuse East of human rights! not to say East is better than West in human rights!

regarding the proof..I don't need to give it because I am expressing my opinion and view which I know may turn out to be wrong..I am not stating that US election is not a democratic process and If I do..I need to present strong evidences and careful observations! I am not giving people hard time if I ask for the same..

PCG..

I wish all people were like you & leave judgement to those who know matters well.

American Democracy??? ...

It is a Two party system.... rt???

And the powerful Lobby rules every where.. Show me one country where it doesn happen......

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

In the West we have major issues with not being treated equally (men have issues too), but this saying says it all for me,'It's a mans world' and I no way a feminist.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

And see I believe you -

If I ask show me where it is mentioned...?? How annoying you ll feel... :)

Don make people suffer tht.....lol.....

But CBD in general as mentioned earlier -

Equality cannot exist between unequals.... between strong n weak.... strength might be inherited or earned...

But cannot co-exist on equal levels with the weaklings .....

And about West saying Women in East are oppressed....

And Education of Women shall solve the issue....

I do not see Women of West feeling equal to Men in spite of being educated and have freedom to do wht they want to...

society stops from doin nothing....

They themselves have not solved it yet... How do they claim to help the non-west world then?????

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

As I said not American and certainly don't know American politics so feel best left to those that do know to comment.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

PCG..

there are many political parties in US...one of the them (green party) was blamed and suspected for making republicans win election of 2000 (Gore Vs. Bush).

I am not deciding here..I am just giving my views that US election is good democracy as a system..but in actual conditions...is not democratic and controlled by interest lobbies and influential figures..an opinion!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_United_States

I am not American so to be honest can't give you a honest critique of American politics. I have never heard of another political party in America other than Democrats or Republicans.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

PCG..

I am not clear..what is your assessment of US democracy? (not in paper or constitution..but ground conditions??)

Thats because they are the two Americans have to vote for.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

PCG..I agree to that too..broadly speaking.

Ashwin..the proof is that American presidency is greatly control by lobbies and parties..most presidents if not all are either democratic or republican.

Around the globe I think both sexes can be.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

popcorngirl..just to clarify...i am not saying Eastern socities are better than western socities..don't get me wrong..I believe women are discriminated round the globe...

good point that if we look the same life would be boring..I am sure I would need such a statement sometime..

Don't have a problem with that at all ;-)))))))))))

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

PCG - Doesn matter if you had not said tht...

thks to you I got a opportunity to share my views on the same... :)

You ll have to take credit of letting me loose......lol

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

CBD - If I could use your medicine on you...

Show me... with proof that American is the worst form of Democracy.... " A horrible Example"

What is ideally a good Democracy? which countries are Democratic now and which are Very Good , Good, not so Good and Bad.. with explanation for all.....

Coming back to American Democracy - It is a two party Democracy... Republic and Democrats...

It not not good....??

I come from India - Biggest Democracy in the world -

We have Multi party System - The reason to come up with this was so tht all the sects, religions, tribes, states have a say on Governance...

And the boon has become a headache for us as not used properly - No single party gets enough votes to make a government..

Hence there is a coalition Govts.. The main issue whole year is to retain all the allies and not to loose there votes.. else opposition comes in Power.....

So Govt has no time to think of betterment of people.. which it should actually focus on...

I have Given stats well this time.. haven't I...

Not read these... I have lived this.... :)

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popcorngirl...it is common practice in QL to post a thread on politics and end up discussing babysittings..so hijacking is not an issue to me as long as there is a natural & smooth flow of discussion..

the original post could be expanded to include health of societies. There alot of claims on women's rights and human rights originating from western governments against the East which I believe are not sincere.

I do agree that Eastern societies have problems and serious issues but it does not mean Western societies are better than Eastern societies.

We need to look at proper measures to assess the situation. do you think women will not be satisfied until they become queens and princess? or would the financial issues concern them more? does it matter to them to dress freely or are they bothered with education or equal opportunity? just some thoughts!

We can discuss the nitty gritty of it but we ned to stick to proper measure factoring the fact that Islam is the essential in Eastern societies- by which certain commitments are imposed etc.

If most people are honest all cultures suffer from major problems. It's called the Human Race. If we all agreed, looked the same, spoke the same, had the same religion and were all green, life would be boring.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

popcorngirl...it is common practice in QL to post a thread on politics and end up discussing babysittings..so hijacking is not an issue to me as long as there is a natural & smooth flow of discussion..

the original post could be expanded to include health of societies. There alot of claims on women's rights and human rights originating from western governments against the East which I believe are not sincere.

I do agree that Eastern societies have problems and serious issues but it does not mean Western societies are better than Eastern societies.

We need to look at proper measures to assess the situation. do you think women will not be satisfied until they become queens and princess? or would the financial issues concern them more? does it matter to them to dress freely or are they bothered with education or equal opportunity? just some thoughts!

We can discuss the nitty gritty of it but we ned to stick to proper measure factoring the fact that Islam is the essential in Eastern societies- by which certain commitments are imposed etc.

At least the world knows that big money is donated to politics in the US. A lot of the time in other places there is corruption.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

I was not giving MY view on if I am paid less etc. Cbd, asked for proof that discrimination exists. I copied and pasted with the link to give him an example. Those were not MY words.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

n PCG - Comin back to your previous issue of Women being discriminated as they as Paid less than male counter part....

It is Every Where... Demand n Supply Game again....

You feel discriminated.... there is discrimination in salary based on Nationality too... :)

If you have passport of one country you shall have less and of other.. even lesser...

But still all are here.. bcoz they are earning more than wht was at back home...

If you say Employers do wrong by paying females less... then Why do they accept it????

Simply coz it is still better than doin nothing...

And this Reminds me - I was reading PLATO once... he says -

"Morality is a Weapon Weak uses against the Strong.."

I am not comfortable with Indians being payed less than European nationals here... But I have realized tht the solution is not in Fighting for equal rights... (they don exist)

But to make our own country a stronger nation n economy.... so tht the Indians are offered tht.. not ask for it.....

Similarly... Women... work so hard and prove to this world n corporate world tht... WOMEN are the worlds most untapped resource till date and deserve more than the way they are treated right now...

DON ASK FOR IT... DESERVE IT... IT SHALL COME WALKING TO YOU

This is of course not a instant solution but as the issue is such a huge one... The solution too shall take time to show fruits....

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

I agree with you; all the books promote looking after and cherishing women. As you say it's the religious leaders who allow it and that is what is wrong; not the religion itself.

Getting back to the original post. CBD seems to have a problem with the whole East/West thing with regard women leaders. I don't wish to 'hijack'; but I don't think it has anything to do with democracy/religion. I think it is down to 2 things, sexism and very few women in the West have yet shown the bottle (apart from Thatcher) to be an elected leader. Saying that, as I said earlier in the post we do have lots of women who as the Queen where the Heads of the country and that is far more important than a female political figure head.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

PM...you are right but we were talking about modern history as stated by bleu..

Ashwin..we can talk about 'what if' forever..show me the money!

popcorngirl..I agree with you that discrimination happens against all sexes.

I also agree that democracy is hard to achieve given how weights differ from a voter to a voter and party formation system.

Take US election for example, some would fanatically argue it is the best democracy in the world where i think it is a horrible example.

Have you seen any preseident recently , who came from another party which is not republican or democratic? Never.

American people basically choose between A or B. It looks perfect though but it is not.

ummjake..

please be more mature..you are wasting your breath on me again. Save it for better causes will you.

PCG - Every Religious Body in this world must have oppressed and suppressed females.... But it has more to do with the interpretation of it..

Religion - Bottom line - is all about LOVE and Sacrifice and All mercy etc etc... honestly I cannot take it tht Religion would say Lets discriminate them or these...

The society uses religion as a Too;.. weapon rather - and there comes the issue... Religion is not jus set of rules but people attached emotionally to them... with Faith trust belief n similar attributes...

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

The Catholic faith in the past has done major damage to its followers because of their discrimatory attittude to women. To be fair religon has and still does discriminate.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

In Britain, the transition from oligarchy to democracy was piecemeal. The civil wars and Glorious Revolution of the 17th cent. confirmed the supremacy of Parliament, but an unreformed electoral system restricted effective participation to a small minority. What public opinion existed could be expressed only spasmodically. The proliferation of newspapers in the 18th cent. and the publication of parliamentary debates after 1770 widened the scope of opinion, but not until the Great Reform Act of 1832 was the system itself substantially modified, with the introduction of a standard franchise and the grant of representation to great towns like Manchester, Birmingham, Sheffield, and Leeds. Further extension of the franchise in 1867 and 1884 gave most adult males the vote, secret ballot in 1872 reduced the influence of the gentry, and the Corrupt Practices Act of 1883 curtailed bribery. Two further reforms of 1918 and 1928 gave the vote to women, and the voting age was reduced to 18 by an act of 1969.

Democracy affords voters the opportunity to change their government, but the extent to which the opinions of ordinary people are effective in other matters remains a subject of debate, and it is arguable that specific interest groups carry more weight than the casting of a vote (often for a losing candidate) once every four or five years. In local government, where the influence of the individual might be expected to be greatest, the effect has been reduced by powerful strides towards centralized decision-making, and by the domination of many councils by one party. Participatory democracy, accepted in principle by almost everybody, is not easy to practise in a large country, where issues are many and complex.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

CBD - Say there is a rule in Saudi - Tht women cannot drive....

Hypothetically say there is a rule - Alexa has lived tht rule... so helps us in feeling strongly that the rule exists.... for cont the discussion sake-

Again I say I do not know much rather nothing about Islam... but I m pretty sure.. no religion would discriminate one sex over other...

But when it comes to implementation of laws.. which are known to be based on religion in country like Saudi -

Why does this Happen????

Why this err (if it is) of interpretation happens????

And Why don the scholars correct them ???

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

PM, You are right. I was talking about modern western democracy...

CBD avoids having to actually answer questions and defend his premise by constantly demanding that YOU do the lion's share of the work in the discussion.

You state a topic, he wants specific details.

You give him details, he wants to know who said it...

And on it will go...

He just likes to hear the sound of his fingers on the keyboard, I think.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Discrimination is a world wide issue for both sexes.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

Alexa..

I am not sure what year you are talking about..but things change...if anyone here or anywhere...would like to discuss banning women in saudi from driving then i am willing to share the discussion...but give me a source of information where we can examine what the law says and start from there...

popcorngirl..execuse my intelligence but you are saying that discrimination against women is a universal given? sorry, I mean universal issue?

Curious giving you examples of discrimination between the sexes.

Rostker v. Goldberg: Avoiding the Question of Women in Combat

One practice that did pass strict scrutiny was the authorization for the President to require selective service registration of males, but not females. In Rostker v. Goldberg, 453 U.S 57 (1981), the Court held that the practice was substantially related to the legitimate purpose of facilitating conscription. Because women are excluded by statute from combat, Justice Rehnquist found that men and women are not “similarly situated” and therefore cannot be compared for the purpose of a discrimination analysis. The Court did not, however, address whether the practice of excluding women from combat is constitutional, an omission that some scholars have criticized.

The copyright of the article Sex Discrimination and Equal Protection in Gender Equality & Law is owned by Judith Faucette. Permission to republish Sex Discrimination and Equal Protection in print or online must be granted by the author in writing.

Read more: "Sex Discrimination and Equal Protection: Supreme Court Cases on Gender in US Constitutional Law | Suite101.com" - http://gender-equality-law.suite101.com/article.cfm/sex_discrimination_and_equal_protection#ixzz0FaF4f7P4&A

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

popcorngirl..

what are you suggesting?

Miss X..I can make the same statement as you did...

I am asking for a credited source of information which you need to present.

You claim Saudi bans women from driving. Fair enough but prove it!

This is simple logic...I am not sure what drives you crazy about this. I believe you failed to do so.

You have been accusing Saudi all along and asking you to prove it would be natural. you just failed to do so.

Do you want me to take your loose statement above to challenge? you asked me to search western laws and i told you it is a big task and refrained but you have chosen to go through that path.

When I accused Canada of shocking UN on women's rights I backed it up not like you here.

I can talk till the next day actually but won't.

you cannot accuse countries like that without a prove or strong foundation!

You also defend Canada based on the fact that women are petitioning! they petition everywhere even in Saudi.

Why does Canada and the Western world allow merchants to abuse little beautiful girls to go naked promoting cars and other trade items!! this is exploitation which is not allowed over here! this is a horrible discrimination in our society and having the needy girl agree to it is not a justification!!

you started in this thread by saying:

"A person may believe to be free (and this goes for all cultures), but until they are part of, and understand other cultures, then maybe they are not as free as they originally believed."

and now you are completely off the mark.

I don't think so................

Equal Pay Is an Issue for All Working Women

Over the past few decades,laws barring discrimination in education and employment have helped give working women opportunities our mothers never had. Today, women work in many different fields, each requiring different skills and experience and paying different wages. But opening doors for working women has not closed the door on pay discrimination

For Women lawyers, whose median weekly earnings are nearly $300 less than those of male attorneys, and for women secretaries, who receive about $100 a week less than male clericals;

For women doctors, whose median earnings are more than $500 less each week than men's, and for 95% of nurses who are women but earn $30 less each week than the 5 % of nurses who are men;

For Women professors, whose median pay is $170 less each week than men's and for women elementary school teachers who receive $70 less a week than men;

For women food service supevisors who are usually paid about $60 less each week than men in the same job, and forwaitresses, whose median weekly earnings are $50 less than waiters'.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

This question has been asked before and the answer is still the same. . .Dating back to the Waterhole-Oassis-Laws in Saudi, women were and still are the property of men and they are not allowed freedom to roam around unattended. Men are insecure and fear that the women would leave them.

Source(s):

Phd., Anthropology, Cornell University

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

Congratulations. You just confirmed what I should have known all along. You make wide sweeping statements and generalisations, while demanding accurate information and proof from everyone else, which you then widely ignore until you see an inaccuracy. You then zone in on that inaccuracy and repeat it over and over while wholly ignoring the rest of the completely valid points that are made. Failing this, you revert to trying to discredit the people commenting, thus giving you even more opportunity to ignore their points, and focus attention on to whichever statements they made, that you are able to twist into meanings that are small minded, prejudiced, and on the whole, inaccurate.

I should have known better than to try and debate with someone who uses tactics to try and gain points, rather than make any actual valid points about the subject. Therefore I can't see any reason to continue this.

m reading....

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

who issued the law? can you cite a web address or something?

The laws states that all women in Saudi Arabia regardless of their nationality are forbidden to drive cars. It was made official in 1990.

it appears to you!

there are billions out there who look at things differently :)

I promise answering your question...but I cannot give a fair judgement until you give me the complete picture...

your question is related to banning women from driving in saudi...

Please state the law that bans women from driving in saudi and whether it is applicable to all ladies or some groups only. I ask this because I don't know what this law says exactly. Additionally, confirm that what you state is accurate. going down the road of 'what if' may not be realistic.

And that's where you're wrong. Stop putting trying to put words in my mouth. I said that different laws for different people cause inequality. I have never said that every "Islamic" law does treat people differently.

It appears to me that no one can completely decide what Islamic teachings are, as it varies from country to country. The Middle East can't even decide which laws are truly Islamic or not, how can you say beyond doubt that all these laws are ok because they are Islam, when not even all the other Islamic countries agree with you?

I've answered your question, now please comment on mine about women being forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia.

regardless...I asked you specifically about Islam and you answered with Yes stating that Islam and women's rights can not coexist...

Even if saudi implements Islam as it should be implemented..your view on Islam won't change would it??

if women in Saudi are muslims AND Saudi implements Islam fully..then there are no problems..end of story

Who are you to say the laws in Saudi Arabia don't come from Islamic teaching. The people in Saudi Arabia would fight to the death arguing that they are abiding by Islamic rules. Why is your interpretation of Islamic rules more accurate then theirs?

Miss X..

now it can be concluded that you don't believe women's rights and Islam can coexist...I disagree for sure..

You may not judge women's rights in a muslim society full of muslim women who accept the commitment imposed by being muslim realising different treatment which they don't consider opression.

Your answer with yes proves that you are not qualified to state wehter a certain society is opressive of women or not.

Your only way to criticise Saudi is to look at laws which don't come from the Islam teachings which are considered opressive...but until you agree that Islam is not opressive/discriminative of women because it treats men & women differently in some aspects..until then you are not qualified to judge that society...

I hope you see what I mean.

Yes having different laws for different people causes an inequality.

Miss X..

will discuss driving women..

are you still supporting your profound statement?

=====================

Miss X stated:

"A person may believe to be free (and this goes for all cultures), but until they are part of, and understand other cultures, then maybe they are not as free as they originally believed."

=====================

Miss X..

you stated:

"Just because the different Islamic laws are enforced on men and women, the simple fact that the different laws exists already causes an inequality."

Therefore, you have an issue against Islam, and because Islam distinguishes between women and men in some areas, you consider it to be inequality and you ultimately think Islam does not provide women's rights to societies that implement it even if it is perfect Islamic law.

Is this right statement?? is this what you think??

Yes or No answer please

(you may say why after a yes or a no)

Ok I will bring up 1 law in the Middle East that men and women are not treated the same.

Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia.

Let's discuss if this is fair, and who is discriminated against in this instance shall we?

Miss X..

I don't work for you lol

this is a full time job.

duplicate!

Here's a challenge for you CBD.

Find me the all Western Laws you can find that treat men and women differently.

And then find me all the Middle Eastern Laws that you can find where men and women are treated differently.

And we will go through each law, and discuss whether it is fair for both sexes, or whether one sex is being discriminated against.

I agree that women are discriminated round the globe as I stated repeatedly.

I don't clear myself of discussion deficiency too.

let us tackle a point at a time..

you lead the show:

Are we discussing women in Islam or women in Saudi?

omg sometimes I wonder why I am bothering.

I said that Middle Eastern countries base their laws on Islam. Whether it's accurate Islam or their own interpretation, they still do it. And women are still oppressed in many ways.

And you are the one who said women are not allowed to pray when they have their period, and men don't have the option of that. I didn't twist your words, I said it the same way you did, just reversed the people being discriminated against.

And if you think I am hard to argue with and don't complete points. Then look at your own arguments. You purposely avoid talking about the things that do not support your argument. You say my analogy of potatoes and flowers does not represent the situation. But fail to give any reason why.

I personally am still on the main topic and am saying that the Middle East countries, ALL the Middle Eastern countries combined do not compare to all Western countries combined when it comes to women's rights. And I will use Saudi Arabia's laws which are based on their Islamic beliefs over and over again until you admit that even if every other country was on par with the West then SA would bring it far far below acceptable.

britexpat..

Thanks for jumping in!

You have just seen an example of media victims...some people do not know actual conditions and yet release judgements...thank you for the valuable information..

Miss X..I believe you need to take your blinkers off too and verfiy what you see, read or hear..before you confirm.

Miss X..

I believe the X that suffixes your nickname is a perfect fit to the way you behaved in this discussion...you have been variable and hard to predict..circumventing...switching etc.

each time I focus on a point to discuss..you jump into other issues without completing that point.

This is not a way of discussion.

We discussed particular countries then you blamed Islam for being the root cause. When I explained Islam you are now back to Saudi and how it behaves.

You don't talk for men by the way being/feeling discriminated and certainly not for Eastern men.

You are wrong in women and prayer. How did you state women are forbidden from not praying and men are not.

Completely wrong. There is not a time where muslim men are allowed to miss prayers but women do have exemptions when they have the period (you are now playing with words stating that women don't have the option to pray when they are in period!! well, men do not have the option not to pray)

There is a fundamental difference between Islam and muslims who may not necessarily implement Islam as it should be implemented.

Are you blaming Islam or Saudi?

Are you discussing Religion or actual Society?

Did you watch the live example of a muslim women stating Islam is not an opressor of women???

You only mentioned a few of the laws.

And yes men do feel discriminated against when women take maternity leave. That is why in Western countries paternity leave is now being implemented.

And you said men do not have the option of not praying, but women are not allowed to when they have their period. Reverse that around. Women do not have the option to pray. Everyone has the option not to pray if they don't want to, but women are forbidden it.

No the potato and flowers comparison is not a good analogy. Because I used relatively equal products to compare. When a men and women are subjected to laws, the laws are usually not so equal. Especially in Saudi Arabia who uses the guise of Islamic law to completely control women. Women are not allowed to drive, are not allowed to travel unaccompanied unless with a male family member, are allowed to be physically abused. The list goes on. Take your blinkers off CBD.

Agree with you. Well said..

However, as far as Saudi Arabia is concerned, women can and do travel unaccompanies and scholars have again and again said that the ban on driving is cultural and not due to Islamic reasons. (As you said rightly - the guise of islam)

Miss X...

Is Islam opressive of women??

You may find this vedio link useful to answering this question:

&feature=related

Hope you had a good sleep.

Your example of potatoes and flowers is not depicting the situation I am afraid. It is not what the situation is like. Not a good example to use.

If you know enough about Islam, you would note that there are things which are equally forbidden for men & women alike. Alcohol for example.

There are also things which are allowed for women and not men (& vice versa).

Example, prayers. It is imperative that muslims (men & women) pray 5 times a day. Ladies are allowed not to pray when they have the period. Men do not have that option. See, Islam deals with men and women differently for a good reason not as a discrimination.

you would also note that different laws between men and women do factor fundamental differences of both genders. Another example, women get pregnant, men do not. Should men feel discriminated because they don't have maternity leaves? No!

I repeat, your example is not how Islam deals with muslims.

You may ask muslim ladies you get to meet about Islam teachings to have a better feel of what the situation is like.

Sorry I went to bed. I'm not in Qatar.

Yes I agree that Islamic law enforces laws equally upon women and men. But that doesn't make it right.

Imagine there are 2 men, one man is forced by law only to be allowed to grow flowers, and the other man is forced by law only to grow potatoes. Now each job is important, as flowers contribute to both the aesthetics of the area, and provide life giving oxygen, and potatoes have essential nutrients for people to consume. Now the potato grower decides to capitalise on his potatoes and sells or trades his potatoes for other goods. Because of this, he becomes fat and wealthy and is able to have his own family and can bask in the luxuries of life. The flower grower however, is unable to sell all but a meager amount of his flowers, and thus lives his life relying on the charity of others.

Now my point is, even though both men were subjected to the laws, and both men were subject to equally important laws. It did not make the law right. What would make the law right, is if you were to give the men the option to choose what important product he would grow, or at least divide both flower growing and potato growing between the two men equally. Otherwise the law is damning one person to a certain life, and is removing the opportunity for this man to live a life equal to that of his peers.

So I will reiterate, just because laws are equally enforced on to people, does not mean the actual law is right or fair.

bleu,

I don't think democracy was invented by French. I am not sure if it can be called an invention either.

(I believe we are specific about right to vote here though democracy is a fluid term)

I agree though that France is a unique model in revolution and liberity.

You might be right in your claim too. I cannot give an assessment without a thorough study.

However, UK has a long history and significant contributions to Western systems. you may refer to the following:

==============================================

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy

Excerpt:

- Pre-Eighteenth century milestones

Rise of democratic parliaments in England and Scotland: Magna Carta (1215) limiting the authority of powerholders, First elected parliament (1265), The Levellers political movement, English Civil War (1642-1651), Habeas Corpus Act (1679), English Bill of Rights and Scottish Claim of Right (1689). See also: other documents listed at the Constitution of the United Kingdom, History of the parliament of the United Kingdom.

- Thomas Hobbes: a pioneer in socity and ruling systems who I believe contributed to French revolution directly or indirectly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes

=================================================

I just noticed this.

CBD, you say

UK is known for its democracy and liberit early in modern history (way before USA was formed and France to name a few)

I'll just reply that France invented democracy, when the French revolution started in 1789 with the slogan "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" (Liberty, Equality, Brotherhood?), I'm sure that the UK didn't know what the word democracy means, some would argue it's still not a democracy.

The Americans followed France when rebelled against the British, ... and when they were free, France gave them a gift "La Statue de La Liberté", a monument facing a mini-replica in France.

Ashwin..

ups and downs...i need to write as long as the past comments to give you a brief..but no big improvements I would say..

Miss X..awaiting!

CBD - could you brief.... to what conclusions you guyz have come to till these 4 pages....???

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

ha ha ha Ashwin..

I am not surprised..

Tamed never gets along with the wild but I feel like killing you anyway lol

CBD - Now I know Why I don meet you in other forums these days..

You are dedicatedly behind this one ... lol....

I know you feel like Killing me.. to hijack this forum.....

But lols.. Do I look like I care...

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

well.. we are back to square 1..definition of equality..

This tells me..you lack understanding of equality within the context of Islam..

I think what you are saying is that Islam does not entertain women's rights or is a women's opressor.

Am I right in saying this?

Just because the different Islamic laws are enforced on men and women, the simple fact that the different laws exists already causes an inequality.

yeah but law enforcements in light of Islam are applied equally to men and women. what would you say to that?

(we are here talking about Saudi by the way because women in qatar and other states may not wear hijab and should they have to it becomes an individual act)

I agree that women who freely choose to wear a hijab are not oppressed. But there are those who are either forced to by law, or coerced by societal stigma, who are being oppressed.

I am aware of your argument and this is what I have been trying to explain..

Maybe some people misinterpreted the teachings of Islam which lead to unjust laws against women in this case. I agree with you here. But If you are not convinced, don't support Islam, which you are entitled to do, then I don't agree with you nor will I accept freedom as you define it.

I support equality..but this does not mean freedom of behaviour...for both genders

Men for example, are not allowed to dress revealing clothes.

Islam imposes certain commitments on men and women. Hijab for example is a commitment of Islam. Whether women adhere to it or not is another matter. muslim

women who wear Hijab should not be considered opressed. Do you agree to this?

With all due respect to the Islamic rules, because I am sure they had reasons for creating them, but they seem to be the root cause of the inequality and lack of rights for women. Which is why the Middle East, which implements these Islamic rules is considered to have lower standards of women's rights.

The basis of the argument we are making is that women should have the same freedom of behaviour and receive the same treatment as men. As I have mentioned before, Islamic law generally endorses the distinctly separate treatment of men and women.

ha ha ha..

it does not matter who enforced the net measure..I admit trying to exclude Saudi..but not because it is a bad example..which it might be in some women's rights aspects...but because this would lengthen the discussion because I would have to try and explain Islamic roots of some rules...this is why I kept Saudi out.

I really believe there is a huge misunderstanding in looking over the East...yes we have problems and discriminations too but this happens everywhere and mostly due to individual acts.

I still like your profound statement and I believe it is a highly accurate proposition.

I was attempting to be profound lol. For example you personally may think you are free, when really you're only free because you accept the limits imposed.

No it is us who kept enforcing the net result as comparison, except you kept specifically bringing up Canada. I included Saudi Arabia because you seemed to keep purposely not mentioning it, when it is one of the most important countries to consider when we are talking about women's rights.

I hope we are going in circles here..

Now you are comparing Saudi with Canada where i clearly stated that net result should be the focus..it would have made more sense to compare Doha to Canada..

what did the following mean:

"A person may believe to be free (and this goes for all cultures), but until they are part of, and understand other cultures, then maybe they are not as free as they originally believed."

?

I think you need to get a better understanding of what universal means, and at the same time learn to acknowledge the differences in levels of rights.

Canada is currently petitioning for equal pay for equal work for men and women. That is not to say that most women don't already receive an equal pay, because the majority already do, it is to make sure all chances of any discrimination are completely removed. Now compare this to Saudi Arabia where women in many instances are not even allowed to work, let alone petition for equal pay.

Do you see the difference yet?

Miss X..

the first line states Qatar & Canada and you refused to give a judgement so hold it there please.

you also mentioned:

"A person may believe to be free (and this goes for all cultures), but until they are part of, and understand other cultures, then maybe they are not as free as they originally believed."

See, you stated all cultures. I don't know how this cannot be stretched to include East and West.

Moreover, you mentioned "universally reported" term. You are either a victim of propaganda or unaware of reports in Canada, in this case, which are universally reported too and can be checked by googling.

MissX/Gypsy,

I'm amazed you've been bothered to 'debate' with CBD as long as you have.

He doesn't reply to any factual claims. He seems to think women here have some sort of quasi/cultural rights and ignores their lack of political rights.

I guess local women not being able to travel without the permission of a man isn't evidence of a lack of rights.

I guess local women not being able to drive a car without the permission of a man isn't evidence of a lack of rights.

I guess local women not being able to work without the permission of a man isn't evidence of a lack of rights.

I guess local women not being able to chose whether or not to marry before having children isn't evidence of a lack of rights.

I guess local women not being able to ever be Head of State in this country isn't a lack of rights.

I guess local women not being able to prosecute their husbands for rape isn't evidence of a lack of rights.

I guess local women not being able to prosecute their husbands for physical abuse isn't evidence of a lack of rights.

I guess local women being barred from working in the job of their choice because certain professions are off limits to women isn't evidence of a lack of rights.

And just because in other western countries women have equality under law (EVERY LAW) that doesn't mean they have equal rights to men.

And that's the last I'll say on the matter.

No doubt CBD will be able to present a thoroughly researched and articulate rebuttal on all the points above and how women do have equal rights in this country. Or some other BS like that.

If you read the very first line, it clearly states the countries I am referring to. The topic had degenerated into a pissing competition between Qatar and Canada, and that is what I was commenting on. I am sure there are other countries where you must live first to be able to decide on your levels of freedom and levels of rights, but at the same time there are countries where the realities are obvious and universally reported on repeatedly.

You said that "if you compare East and West on a singular measure..then you could control the order of who gets first by simply choosing a measure that suits your objective.."

YOU are the person who chose the measure by instigating the topic and referring to womens rights. What measure do you want a topic on womans rights to be about? Shoe size?

ummjake..thank you!

Gypsy..thank you!

Miss X..if you disagree then I have no problems in that...

let me remind me you of your first post:

=======================================================

"I think if people are going to comment on womens rights in Qatar and Canada (which seems to be what this thread has developed into), then I think the reality of what it is like to be a woman in each country can only be determined by women who have lived in both. Statistics aside, the reality of how free or how marginalised a woman is, is more of an observation after living somewhere for a certain amount of time, rather than a verbal regurgitation of the statistics. Of course there can be facts that support or deny certain arguments, but the reality is not always noticeable from the outside.

A person may believe to be free (and this goes for all cultures), but until they are part of, and understand other cultures, then maybe they are not as free as they originally believed."

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I have repeatedly stated or asked rather that we are more or less the same...given the net result...if you compare East and West on a singular measure..then you could control the order of who gets first by simply choosing a measure that suits your objective..

what i am after here is the aggregate result...final one...

You have refused to judge earlier which I accepted..but you also said:

"We are not attacking the rights of women in all Middle Eastern countries, which is what I believe you think we are doing. We are simply disagreeing with you, that if you take all the Eastern countries into account, then the level of womens rights are not equal to those in the West."

and you also mentioned it is a universal given..etc.

This is judgement. you are stating and ranking. Does this not contradict your first post on an overall scale of women's rights?

Your numerous and heartfelt efforts are laudable, but CBD is just spouting off the same old stuff he always has. Don't waste your time or breath on this guy.

WE (and anyone with five brain cells to rub together)know that women's rights in the west surpass those in the east. We also know and acknowledge that they're not perfect anywhere, so every country/region has progress to make.

If CBD could argue and debate effectively, and actually cared at all about the issue, he'd actually be interested in and trying to advance women's rights in his own backyard. But he can't, and he doesn't, so he won't.

He'd much rather wind people up on QL by yanking their chains, making patently ridiculous statements like 'the east and west are basically the same when it comes to women's rights'.

If someone makes a factual error, he calls them a liar -- yet he isn't willing to adopt that moniker himself when he spouts off untruths. He discounts everyone else's personal observations and experiences, yet he relies upon his own as the gospel truth that everyone else should accept. He doesn't understand what 'freedom of choice' means or the fact that crime against women doesn't indicate a lack of women's rights (because crimes are committed against all types of people).

This is a typical example of CBD's rhetorical skills:

"It is a universal given too that East has dignified women long a time ago during which West considered women to be Devils believe it or not."

I'm sorry, but WTF does this even mean? "Universal given"? "...believe it or not"? LOL! Talking to CBD is like talking to an 8 year old; you make lots of perplexed expressions and do a lot of eye rolling when you listen to him explain things.

CBD -- spend some time and effort improving your knowledge base AND your reasoning and argumentative skills, and when you've made some progress let us know.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

ROFL CBD now you're just sounding pathetic.

Omg start reading clearly.

I have repeated myself TIME AND TIME AGAIN that I said I can not judge the differences between Qatar and Canada ONLY. Not only did I say it several times. I clarified it to you specifically as well.

I'm sorry but you have clearly failed to come up to an adequate response to the last posts we added, and so are trying to pick on the people who are commenting, rather than the comments themselves.

I will copy and paste something I wrote, in the hope that you read it over and over again until you fully understand it.

"In Western societies, socially, economically, educationally and legally every single woman has the right to receive exactly the same treatment as a man. If a man is allowed to show his face, then so is a woman, if a man is allowed to reach a certain level of education, then so is a woman, and there is no stigma attached to a women who chooses to capitalise on these rights. And furthermore, there are programs and unions in place to mediate that women will continue to be treated equally. No, the system is not perfect yet, but the point is, if we see an imperfection we can and do fight our arses off to fix it.

You can not, I repeat CAN NOT say that women are afforded the same rights in many Middle Eastern countries, as the men in those same countries."

We are not attacking the rights of women in all Middle Eastern countries, which is what I believe you think we are doing. We are simply disagreeing with you, that if you take all the Eastern countries into account, then the level of womens rights are not equal to those in the West.

Miss X..

Thanks for showing how inconsistent you are.

I don't understand how shocking women in UN's eyes is considered an advancement.

Gypsy,

If you admitted you are wrong then follow its implications!

Shame on you to accuse your host country based on lies!

It is a universal given too that East has dignified women long a time ago during which West considered women to be Devils believe it or not.

I have not done any detailed research on Canada or the West in General. Nevertheless, a quick googling lead me instantly to the fact that UN is shocked by Women's rights in Canada. I wonder what findings will accumulate based on a thorough research.

It is a pitty to cancel the blessings, of our time & circumstances assembling us in one location, with the garbage information and assessment criterias you have been equiped with. All of this is due to your prejudice and bigotery clearly shown in this thread.

Miss X started by saying i cannot judge and now she is judging. I cannot compete with this.

Gypsy is basically a liar. cannot compete with this either.

Those are the fields against which we cannot compete NOT the women's rights.

Have a beautiful day!

When I made the comment about the health clubs in Saudi I was taking it from another thread on QL that day that discussed an article about the call to close women's health clubs in Saudi.

Stop being so obtuse.

I admitted I was wrong about your ONE women's shelter, yet you keep referring to your article that I've proven time and time again is neither accurate or applicable to this post.

The reason you find websites criticizing women's rights in Canada is because we know there's still a lot of room for improvement and the only way to improve is to criticize and draw attention to the issues.

If you google Qatar women's rights you get next to nothing because Qatar isn't researching or reporting any issues about Women's rights and they haven't even signed the UN initiative that you accuse Canada of failing.

IS ignoring the issue better then actually attempting to fix the problems? I think not.

Yes, a universal given. The whole point of this thread has been to show you that women in general in the Middle East are not afforded the same rights as a man.

Regardless of whether women in Western societies show their bodies to advertise or not, the point is both men and women are allowed to do it, and have the option to choose. Are you understanding yet?

In Western societies, socially, economically, educationally and legally every single woman has the right to receive exactly the same treatment as a man. If a man is allowed to show his face, then so is a woman, if a man is allowed to reach a certain level of education, then so is a woman, and there is no stigma attached to a women who chooses to capitalise on these rights. And furthermore, there are programs and unions in place to mediate that women will continue to be treated equally. No, the system is not perfect yet, but the point is, if we see an imperfection we can and do fight our arses off to fix it.

You can not, I repeat CAN NOT say that women are afforded the same rights in many Middle Eastern countries, as the men in those same countries.

This is the whole point of rights and equality we have been talking about. And somehow this whole thread got distracted by the deaths of women and some crappy statistics.

Miss X,

you said: no matter what statistics are given??

You and Gypsy have been quoting statistics and reports so that does not count? or it counts for you but not against you?

A universal given? A universal given? A universal given? A universal given? A universal given? A universal given?

OMG!

Miss X,

Now you are contradicting yourself.

All someone has to do to prove you are wrong, is to scroll up until your first post.

A universal given?

by girls showing thier bodies to promote cars sales? or by girls showing thier bodies to promote underwear sales?

Our countries will not allow merchants to abuse women to such a low level.

western governments allow that to happen, because if sales increase, tax return are increased too. and if this happens on the expense of women's rights, which it does, then hell to women.

Again you avoided talking about Saudi Arabia, and deflected my attentions towards Gypsy's comments. Whether or not all her comments are accurate, I can claim that every Western country has programs in place that fight for womens rights and equality. There are no counter programs claiming that this is unfair, because everyone simply believes that women should be treated exactly the same as men. In Middle Eastern countries, there are religious groups that are fighting for the continuing oppression of women, particularly in Saudi Arabia. No matter what statistics anyone can quote, it's a universal given that if you were to compare all the Middle Eastern countries with all the Western countries, the women would be afforded more freedom and more respect in terms of equality if you were in the Western countries.

Miss X,

Have you not spotted anything wrong with Gypsy's claim?

Is it not enough that Gypsy presented some wrong information?

Why would you consistently keep silent on her side of the story although she terribly made wrong statements!!!

She also referred to Qatar as being the brightest example in the East?

Had you or her bothered to check, you will come to know that qatar represents the average and they are countries which exceed Qatar in this respect!

Why would you not check those statements?? Miss X

not only that,

but i just came to know, few hours ago, that there are health clubs in Saudi, exclusively for women.

Gypsy stated health clubs are banned in Saudi. (maybe it should have been mixed to make you satisfied??)

Another breakthrough in faking information by Gypsy for which you are a perfect victim Miss X!

CBD you accuse Gypsy of avoiding the topic of the original article (which I personally would not take as any serious determination of Canadian womens rights, considering what type of article it is), but you keep making the judgement that the Middle East is on par with the West regarding womens rights, but you consistently ignore my inclusion of Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia has the single largest population of any country within the Middle East, and it's oppression and disregard for womens rights is recognised world wide. It's one thing to compare Qatar to countries in the West, but do I have to repeat myself when I say that you have to take EVERY country in the Middle East into account when you start comparing rights?

Gypsy..

First of all, you did not say a word on the article that i gave you which showed that UN is shocked on Canadian women's rights. It was only when Miss X illuded to it that you started talking about it.

Secondly, you accused Qatar of not providing shelter to women while knowing nothing about the issue.

It is a shame on you to report something on your host country without even knowing about it. I am not trying to silence you here. I have no problems when someone talks about truth objectively but you need to stick to facts! This is shame if you know what that means at all!

So now that it is proven that you talk without basis how credible does this make you?

What makes it worse, is you cannot stop faking the truth (which means a liar basically). you stated you know 6 Qatari girls who offered to study in UK and US and all denied rights!

I don't what kind of person you are really!

I know many Qataris girls who studied abroad. I know many who went to external courses. Many work in mixed companies!

and by the way, women you meet are in no way representative of Qatari society. I can imagine how many Qatari girls you would be exposed to having the mentality that you have.

Something you need to know, when i posted that link on Canada women's rights, I got it from google, knew nothing about Canada Women's rights before that time.

You will be surprised how many articles, journals, orgs you name it that talk about discriminating women in Canada. all you have to do is google to find this out.

I could have copied all of them here had it been a matter of quantity, as it seems to you. Google and you will find out.

I took the most credited source referring to UN.

regarding the percentage, so you agree that we are the same? you don't answer my questions either!

Thirdly, stop quoting your stories with Qatari girls because you are not a reliable source especially when considering your record in this thread. you may refer to the 'secondly' mentioned point in this post.

Copying and pasting from internet sites, especially Canadian's sites talking about Canadian's issues, is not an intelligent move nor will it kill the argument. In fact it makes matter worse.

Now women in Doha can travel on thier own. You still not happy and quoting stories of Qatari girls blocked by thier families. If you are a consistent analyst, you should not have considered this a women's right issue because the law here is ok but individual's act is different. Is not this what you try to prove to be happening in Canada?? that prostitutes are killed but law does not support it?? double standard i must say!

you did not even mention single mothers and related social systems!

Conclusion,

I have to admit that one of the things i learned in this thread is that women are discriminated everywhere round the globe. Countries vary in thier response to this problem in terms of sincereity, resources and commitment.

Miss X brought up a good point saying that a more independent, reliable & systematic mechanism is required to better judge the situation.

I agree to this but will you?

Talking about East unable to compete in women's rights against the West is an argument that is baseless given the current status.

Not only that, but you will have to defend it for a long time before you know how decieved someone can be.

There are nationwide killing of women in this country CBD. This country isn't very big, and the entire population (especially the population of women) are located entirely in Doha, so guess what, if a woman is killed in Doha that means there's been "nationwide killing of woman" How many maids are killed a year? 4? 5? more? If you look at it percentage wide 178 women a year in a country of over 40 million people is a small percentage, 5 or 6 women in a population of 1.2 million is a bit bigger a percentage, and I guarantee you there's more murders then that they just aren't reported, especially if committed by Qatari's.

You also have no idea of the context of this article, which is in fact an editorial, It was written directly after the discovery of a serial killer in Vancouver, and one in the US, who had between them killed over 50 prostitutes in the Vancouver area. Unfortunately prostitutes are victims in every country in the world, both male and female, and it has nothing to do with the rights available to them, but rather the life they've fallen into. All of these women were serious drug abusers and this is how they fell into this life. Unfortunately they fall of the radar of the government and police (mostly through their own actions) and they get lost. It's sad and this was an eye opener for Canada and now many more social programs are opening up for prostitutes and women addicted to drugs to help get them off the street.

You never answered my question before CBD, how would a prostitute be treated in the East?

But as MissX said, this is a problem with domestic violence NOT women's rights.

As a woman whose lived in both countries and one who has been involved with women's issues here and have probably spoken to more Qatari girls then you have, I can assure you THEY ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THEIR RIGHTS. Do you know how many girls were offered scholarships to Universities in the States and the UK? I know of 6. Do you know how many were allowed to go. Zero. I had to sit and listen to a Qatari girl cry while she said she felt like a prisoner because her parents let her brother go to University in the States and she wasn't allowed, that they wouldn't even let her take an airplane by herself to go visit him.

I know one girl who was bullied by her family into becoming a second wife. And I know another who wasn't allowed to attend university AT ALL, even in Qatar.

Do you know how many Canadian girls I know who weren't allowed to attend the University of their choice? 0.

Do you know how many Canadian girls I know pressured into marriage? 0

Do you know how many Canadian girls I know who weren't allowed to attend University? 0

So stop even trying to compare women's rights in Qatar to those in Canada. There is NO comparison.

And here's something about Qatari women's rights from freedomhouse.org http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=181

Some highlights:

Most foreign women laborers work as domestic workers in Qatar and have only moderate access to justice. These women are often isolated within households, where their employers may restrict their freedom of movement. While they do have some legal rights and appear before the same court system as Qatari citizens, fear of expulsion and job loss often prevents these workers from exercising what rights they technically possess. The state does very little to protect foreign women, especially domestic workers.

The Shari'a prohibits all forms of physical violence. However, the legal system often treats leniently those men who commit acts of violence against women who, in their view, behave immodestly or defy the man's authority. While "crimes of honor" are rare, the legal system treats convicted perpetrators lightly. In September 1999, Ali Said Al-Khayareen, a former government minister, murdered his two half-sisters for alleged sexual misconduct. He was released later that year. The maximum penalty for rape in Qatar is death, yet the Shari'a law in Qatar does not consider spousal rape a crime.

The government prohibits nongovernmental women's rights groups, in addition to most other types of associations, from forming or working freely to promote the status of women. Although the new constitution provides for freedom of association, in practice, the government has limited this right. All nongovernmental groups must apply for registration with the Ministry of Interior, which monitors their activities. It remains to be seen whether groups will be allowed to form once the constitution goes into effect fully, a change slated for 2005. (hasn't changed)

Women have restricted freedom of movement. While foreign women may obtain a driver's license, Qatari women are required to have the permission of their male guardian (husband, father) to get a license and must prove that their daily life necessitates movement. Social norms restrict interactions between unrelated men and women, and areas of the public sphere such as workplaces and schools are largely segregated. These practices are enforced by social norms and tradition; Qatar has no religious police. Women are not legally required to have a male guardian's permission to travel abroad, but few women travel alone. Men can prevent female relatives from leaving the country by giving their names to immigration officers at departure ports. Employers often restrict the freedom of movement of non-Qatari women, particularly domestic workers, and their ability to travel abroad. It is not illegal for employers to withhold the passports of their workers. Employers must give consent before exit permits are issued to foreign workers wishing to leave the country.

Qatari law allows a woman to seek a divorce by petitioning the court. The court will grant a woman a divorce only if she is able to prove that she can no longer continue to live with her husband. According to reports, women do not often employ this procedure. Women have the legal right to negotiate a marriage contract that may grant them greater rights than those guaranteed by law. Nonetheless, they do not have full and equal freedom to choose their marriage partner. Polygamy is quite widespread and accepted as a Qatar tradition.

The law prohibits forced or bonded labor, and Qatari women are protected from slavery and gender-based slavery-like practices to some degree. Yet, despite measures taken by the government, Qatar is a destination country for women who are trafficked and placed in situations of coerced labor. Domestic workers, particularly from Asia, often labor under conditions approaching involuntary servitude (long hours, withheld pay, restricted movement), and some are sexually exploited.

Article 36 of the constitution asserts that no one shall be subject "to torture or humiliating treatment. Torture is considered a crime and shall be punished by the law." Qatari women are generally free from torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading punishment; there were no reported incidents in 2003. However, no specific law protects women from domestic violence or abusive employers, and victims of such violence have little recourse. Foreign embassies occasionally provide shelter for domestic workers who have left employers due to abuse or for other reasons. Runaway domestics are also provided shelter in deportation centers by the Qatari government.

Protection from domestic violence is provided more by social networks, notably the tendency toward family endogamy (a cultural preference for cousin marriage) than by law. Thus an abuser married to his cousin would have to answer to his wife's parents: his own uncle and clan, who would probably come to her defense. As family standing is critical to economic and social access and success, this pressure can be formidable. Nonetheless, the topic of domestic abuse remains largely taboo, the extent of the problem is unknown, and women who lack such family support are at high risk.

Opportunities for women within the education system are still limited, however. Due to cultural and societal limits on a woman's ability to travel, females account for only 37 percent of the students who study abroad. Most specialized schools are limited to men; women are not allowed in specialized secondary schools or in the fields of engineering or law at the University of Qatar. Women generally enroll in the theoretical sciences and tend to graduate with similar skills. Consequently, one factor that contributes to women's high unemployment is that there is an oversupply of qualified women competing for positions in fields with little demand.

Women make up 14 percent of the total workforce and 26 percent of the Qatari national workforce; however, women's contributions to the economy are still predominantly under-reported because much of women's labor remains unpaid.

Qatar's newest labor law (Law No. 14 of 2004) is intended to provide for equality between men and women in rights arising from work relations. However, the law is ambiguous. Article 93 grants women the same wages as men for similar work, as well as the same training and promotion opportunities. Article 94, on the other hand, bans women from work that is "hard, hazardous, unsafe or morally harmful, or of other nature to be defined by Ministerial decision."

There are no laws to protect women from sexual harassment in the workplace and no complaint mechanisms for women to report such cases.

*** And Qatar is one of the most progressive nations in regards to Women's Rights in the East!***

Here are some other links to balance out the one's you posted: http://www.swc-cfc.gc.ca/dates/iwd-jif/index-eng.html

In 1977, the United Nations General Assembly adopted a resolution calling on member states to proclaim a day for women's rights and international peace. Following the United Nations' lead, Canada chose March 8 as International Women's Day.

International Women's Week 2009 takes place from Monday, March 2, through to Sunday, March 8.

This year the theme is Strong Leadership. Strong Women. Strong World: Equality, reflecting the Government's firm belief that increasing women's participation and access to leadership roles and opportunities will help women and girls reach their full potential and help build a more prosperous Canada.

Canadian women have made enormous strides. The current Government has the highest percentage of women in Cabinet in Canadian history. The House of Commons currently has 69 women - the highest number ever elected.

Women are also increasing their participation in other aspects of Canadian life. Currently, women make up the majority of full-time students in most university departments.

More women are also now part of the work-force - 58% of all women aged 15 and over currently are part of the paid work force, up from 42% in 1976. 47% of self employed Canadians are women, and 1 in 10 Canadian women are self-employed.

There has also been a long-term increase in the share of women who are working in managerial positions. In 2004, 37% of those employed in managerial positions were women.

While there are still opportunities for women to make gains, the Government continues to support women. Funding to the Women's Program at Status of Women is up 42% under Prime Minister Harper's Government, bringing it to its highest level ever. This ensures women from coast to coast to coast receive the services they need most.

This Government also streamlined how funding was given to groups, creating two new funding components: the Women's Community Fund and the Women's Partnership Fund. This change allowed Status to widen its reach and saw a significant increase in the uptake of its funding and greater diversity among its funding recipients.

In 2007-2008, the number of organizations that received funding from the Women's Program increased by 69%, largely due to a more proactive outreach strategy. Of the organizations that received funding, 41% were first time applicants.

Furthermore, a total of 181 new projects were funding in 2007-2008, which are expected to reach more than 100,000 women directly and over one million women indirectly.

My comment about not judging was based on Qatar and Canada only, both of whom I have never had any experience with. If I believed I would be treated as a lesser human being in Qatar, then I would not be planning on moving there. None of my comments were related to Qatar directly, as I believe it to be a modern country.

I did however make a judgement about Saudi Arabia when you likened the comparison of Qatar and Canada to the Middle East and the West. When you bring in the entire Middle East, then every country within it is accountable, including Saudi Arabia, who is universally accepted to be one of the worst countries when it comes to the freedom and rights of women.

Miss X..

I think you are hard to be chased. I give up.

but here is a conclusion:

you started and ended by stating you cannot compare and I accepted that. In the middle, circumvent and balme reports once, and chose different countries etc.

Why did you not stick to saying not being able to judge? you made views and still make views on Saudi and others!

Now Islam laws are different issue and we can discuss it but let us finish what is at hand first.

Your views on this discussion started well but unfortunately you are contradicting yourself and objectivity and it seems to me you have not been fair in your assessment. This is my opinion.

I am not far from truth too when i said you don't believe UN report on Canada. Not even sufficient percentage to make you change views or reconsider.

I don't know why people are not willing to be flexible which would translate into our discussion and make it really worthwhile. some approaches are not helping at all.

lol you will not get an answer because as I have said now a million times (slight exaggeration) that Qatar is modern and is therefore more advanced in human/womens rights compared to places such as Saudi Arabia. While I can somewhat imagine the level of womens rights in Canada (being from a Western country myself), I have never lived in Qatar for an extended period of time, and can therefore not accurately judge.

I imagine the level of women's rights in Qatar is directly related to how many laws are based on Islamic culture, as the teachings of Islam encourage men and women to be treated differently.

Miss X..

I have been chasing you to give an answer on Qatar and Canada specifically..hope it works this time..

What say you?

The website I cited, is a peer reviewed one. One that is open to review and challenge if misinformation is supplied. A newspaper article is 1 person's writings on a particular subject designed to incite interest in readers, in order to increase sales.

I don't know where you got the information that Canada has more domestic violence than Qatar. Any normal person in any country would be "shocked" at even 1 occurrence of domestic violence, and that is what I believe she is objecting to. It's not a comparison of Canada against any country, it is the objection of bad things happening to women in general in her country.

I seriously don't know how from 1 newspaper report about 1 woman's perpsective on her country's systems, you have managed to make the leap that Middle Eastern countries are the same as Western ones in regards to women's rights.

Miss X..

You seem to support any material when it is against the east and stick to facts when it is against the West (you cited some webs and reports on Saudi!- where did out of context claim disappear!)

She is referring to poverty rates too- this does not tie to social policies on single mothers? or is this a domestic violence issue!

Journalists do lie a lot and take things out of context but they have limits though!

She is referring to the UN report!

Regardless of everything!

if Equality does not exist in East and West those which you consider women's rights, and if domestic violence is at the same rate, though it is more in Canada and elsewhere, would you not agree to my claim that:

- East and West are collectively the same.

- Qatar and Canada are collectively the same.

Waiting for your reply.

Just thought I would add a definition of rights.

"A right is a legal or moral entitlement or permission."

When we talk about women's rights, we talk about women having exactly the same legal and moral entitlements as men, in every single situation. And that goes vice versa as well, men to have the same rights and entitlements as women do. That means looking at people as human beings and their gender being a non-issue.

To relate this back to the comparison of the East and West, a lot of Eastern law is based on Islamic rules. I think you would agree that Islamic law actually supports separate roles of men and women and thus the treatment of them is according to that.

Oh dear. That's a newspaper article CBD. They pick and choose phrases that grab someone's attention, take it out of context and then publish it as fact. I would advice you to read the actual UN report, rather than a newspaper article about it. You can tell the lack of research by the simple fact that the writer talks about things such as domestic violence, and tries to relate it to women's rights. They are entirely different matters altogether.

Btw all Western countries acknowledge that equality between sexes has not been achieved yet. That is why you will find women in this forum fighting tooth and claw to eradicate thinking that women are in any way lesser humans than men.

Miss X..

Don't you notice that you started giving views and judgements and details about what is happening in Saudi and in Canadaabout women's rights

You just said you cannot comment, so what happened?

Be consistent please.

I've said it now 3 times about Canada & Qatar, I can not judge because as I have said, Qatar is modern compared to other Middle Eastern countries, therefore only someone who has experienced both can judge that particular comparison.

I agree with you that honour killings are not specifically related to women's rights, the same as domestic violence killings are not. However I disagree on one aspect, not related to rights, but I thought is worth a mention. Honour killings were in existence for the simple fact that they were not publicly condemned, and were in fact condoned by the society. That was the whole point of killing someone, to regain your family's honour within the society.

Can I have the link to that article about Canada, I would like to know what exactly is so "shocking" about women's rights in Canada, that has caused such a condemnation of Canada in your eyes.

Here is UN shock on Canada:

http://www.westcoastleaf.org/userfiles/file/Vancouver%20Sun%20Shelagh%20Day.pdf

Miss X..

if killing women nation wide in canada is an act of domestic violence then so does honour killing in the Arab world...

killing women in canada is nation wide and honour killing here is not nation wide.

Honour killing is condemned by religion and culture and the public at all. honour killing is very rare nowadays especially in the middle East and given it is not supported by public then it is a domestic violence issue though in no way could be compared to killings in Canada.

I keep bringing the Canada's report as do you keep bringing the Saudi model.

Now my question is specific on Qatar and Canada. what would your answer be? and if you are in no position to make that judegment, then you are in no position to make it!

Yes I did mention that for someone who has not had the experience of both countries, I can't really comment. Qatar appears to be quite modern in comparison to other Middle East countries, therefore the nuances when you compare Qatar to Canada can only be determined by a woman who has lived in both for a certain amount of time.

When you bring the entire Middle East into the comparison, Saudi Arabia being one of the largest countries, you do have to acknowledge the severe oppression of women, claimed even by the women themselves who have not even left the country.

"Several international human rights organizations, such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the United Nations Human Rights Committee have issued reports critical of the Saudi legal system and its human rights record in various political, legal, and social areas, especially its severe limitations on the rights of women"

"Saudi Arabia is also the only country in the world where women are banned from driving on public roads"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Human_rights

I don't know why you keep bringing up the article about the UN being shocked about women's rights in Canada. Can I have a link to this article? People have mentioned this to you several times now so I didn't think I needed to comment on it, but apparently I do. Women being killed in Canada has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with rights. The women who were killed are not by some kind of public outcry against women, or for standing up for their beliefs. It has occurred in private for private reasons and is absolutely condemned by the society.

And yes I saw mention of the one shelter for women in Qatar, and that can hardly be compared to the hundreds of organisations dedicated to making sure women are treated equally before they are beaten and need to be provided with shelter.

Miss X..

Do you know that Qatar provides shelter for women which I quoted above?

you don't know that outcry discrimination is allowed here and yet you put your views forward!

knowing, by now, that UN is shocked by women's rights in Canada and specifically for nation wide killing of women (what could be worse than killing on a nation wide scale) would at least grab the attention.

The worst scenario of comparison between Qatar and Canada would make them equal. Women in Qatar are not killed nation wide and in the very unlikely event that it does, we should be equal!

and if you cannot really comment, why would you say that comparison between east and west are different apples when you don't the situation?

and why did you, surely, state that I acknowledge Qatar as a rare model round this region?

Does this not contradict you claim of none of us being able to assess the situation?

As I mentioned before, as I have never lived in Qatar, Canada or USA, therefore I can not really comment. As I believe, nor can you.

From an outsiders view, I can see that in Canada or in the USA, you can publicly accuse companies or people of discrimination, and will receive back up and aid in the form of organised institutions who are created for the sole purpose of fighting for the rights of the down trodden. I am not so sure that a public outcry for discrimination in Qatar would receive such a support, and would more likely be vilified.

Miss X..

I don't acknowledge Qatar as a rare model for women's rights in the middle East. UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman to name a few have similar women's rights as Qatar does if not better.

We may execulde Saudi when it comes to sole travel and it becomes an exception.

(I am saying this for the sake of the argument although I have my views on sole travel- which is not entirely different from free travel but needs measures)

I agree that West and East in thier entirety is not a perfect comparison, but as you can see we can pick the best eastern country and the worst western country and do a comparison that is not indicative. However, I generalised west and east knowing the deficiency of the comparison and this is why I qualified it with stating 'more or less'.

Now in terms of women's rights:

- Do you agree to my claim that East and West are the same?

- Do you agree that Qatar and Canada or USA are the same? collectively speaking!

CBD, saying Qatar is not as bad about women's rights in comparison to Canada, is one thing. Claiming the entire East against the entire West is a whole new bag of apples. Surely you acknowledge that Qatar is rare in it's modernity in the middle East, and that it only gets worse, much much worse in the case of Saudi Arabia?

lusitano..

what I am trying to conclude is that East and West collectively lack women's rights...more or less..

to state that East cannot compete with West is not a true statement.

now you accuse me of denying without following my posts in this thread. Show me where in this thread have I denied what you stated I have.

this only makes you biased and ignorant and don't really posses what it takes for a proper dialogue.

All I am saying is that, if the UN had the chances to monitor and publish what is actually going on in Qatar, like they do have in Canada, you would probably be shocked to read that report, even more than you/we are when reading the one about Canada!

There is a great risk that the sad facts here will never see sunlight, as in Canada, no matter how nasty they are, we are reading about them!

We don't need to continue this discussion, as I doubt that anyone here would be able to make you shift from denial to acknowledgment of the facts (perhaps not even in private, let it go in a public forum - it's a cultural feature and we understand it).

lusitano..

why did the UN specifically term it Women's right in Canada are shocking!

Why no mention of men in the report though it is claimed murdered men are more than women!

Lusitano, you are no better than ummjake, women in Qatar can travel alone. I doubt you read my previous post.

you quoted Qatar in ur last post for ravel alone right.

Cannot you see that you are talking about something you don't even know!

If you are fair, at least to urself, you should know that you arguement is baseless.

It appears that you still have not yet understood the meaning of human (women, in this case) rights and you still continue to confuse them with “Verified, recorded and publicly published cases”.

Women having the right to travel alone does not mean having the right to be murderer... just like men. Both men and women, are equally treated in Canada and many other countries, by the legislation and the social system, contrary to what happens right at your door step

Just take this "right" – the right to travel alone – as a simple example of many many many many others. Do women in Qatar, Saudi Arabia and similar countries, have that right?..............

lusitano..

Have you read my earlier posts?

How did this freedom help Canada improve in women's right?

having 18 years old girls travel in thier own is a good thing in your definition (assuming we agree on this right, which we don't entirely, but to some extent we do).

Don't just quote certain measures and miss others.

Despite the women's freedom in Canada, what is the overall grade by UN?

UN is shocked by women's rights in Canada. (not for tolerating freedom, but for killing women nation wide)

People like you fail to address issues properly.

It is like giving you 1 million coins of a low value currency and taking 1000 coins of a high value currency out of your pocket.

You are looking at measures that satisfy the eye but never the actuality.

CBD confuses human rights with published records of verified cases.

Obviously, considering that wrong assumption,

Qatar scores a better position than Canada, as Qatar does not officially and publicly verifies the actual situation of women's life conditions nor it would dare to publish it (it would loose face, as we all understand).

In Canada, the legislation and social infrastructure protects women and allows them to have access to all life opportunities equally to men.

CBD, can you imagine that in Canada an 18 year old girl is allowed to live on her own and can even backpack anywhere alone even abroad. Can you even picture the joy of having this freedom, regardless your gender!!!!!!????

So, please when arguing an issue, make sure you at least know its definition. Don't forget,

“Human Rights” is NOT equal to “Verified, recorded and publicly published cases”.

I sincere hope that one day, the world (including Saudi Arabia and your own country) becomes as free and justice (at least) as Canada is today!

Miss X..

you are reasonable and I would accept this as a concensus between us. You should have been here way back in the thread.

ummjake,

you know some Qatari girls who turned trick? you seem involved in details.

I would say birds fall alike.

I think if people are going to comment on womens rights in Qatar and Canada (which seems to be what this thread has developed into), then I think the reality of what it is like to be a woman in each country can only be determined by women who have lived in both. Statistics aside, the reality of how free or how marginalised a woman is, is more of an observation after living somewhere for a certain amount of time, rather than a verbal regurgitation of the statistics. Of course there can be facts that support or deny certain arguments, but the reality is not always noticeable from the outside.

A person may believe to be free (and this goes for all cultures), but until they are part of, and understand other cultures, then maybe they are not as free as they originally believed.

about the US needing to improve it's maternity provisions and certain other areas. Why you think I did is beyond me.

What I HAVE said is that Qatar is clearly not equal (or better) with Canada in women's rights, and for you to go around espousing such when there are clear restrictions here on women that do not exist similarly there is just plain ignoring the facts.

Now you're comparing women modelling for perfume ads with prostitutes...

Wow.

I think as long as someone CHOOSES to do something (model, wait tables in a bar, becomes an actress) then it's hard to argue that that is abuse. You might say there are certain jobs that you find exploitative (like prostitution -- and before you even go there, it's a job that is not legal in most places in the world, so please don't start), but I would argue that if a woman chooses to follow that path, without being under duress, then that is her right.

You of course will disagree.

And actually, YES, I do know (personally) of some Qatari girls who have 'turned tricks' -- mostly to receive gifts/money from the men they were with. I've also seen Bahraini and other GCC ladies engage in this. Typically they have the sense to be very careful about where they do this -- because if their brothers or fathers found out, there'd be another honor killing to keep stats on.

(And guess what? When they're ready to get married, they fly to Bahrain or another GCC country, under the pretense of buying their wedding gold, and then they have their hymen surgery done there a few days before the wedding, and -- TA-DA! -- they're a virgin again!!).

And when a female student has the "RIGHT" to bring her father along when she studies abroad -- well, you might call that a kindness, but I call it not being able to travel on your own.

Again, you clearly don't want to count any of these things a evidence of the status of "women's rights" here, or you choose to believe they don't happen here in this 'pure' society that evil western influence is corrupting.

As I said before, whatever makes you sleep better at night.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

in the mix, I've no idea what CBD is talking about. The USA is currently run by Mr. Reid & Mrs. Pelosi. Last time I checked, Mrs. Pelosi is a female.

PM..I agree with you totally...

However, we are limited to Qatar and Canada as you can see...and using my criteria..Canada cannot compete..

I am being very helpful trying to convince people here we should agree that we are at the same level of women's rights..but they think otherwise!

Gypsy and ummjake in this thread turned out to be faulty in arguments they make I am afriad.

I will do my best to promote worthy causes round the globe regardless of race or belief!

ummjake,

if you think i am obtuse..i think you are impolite and a hopeless case..we all can swear you know but this will get us no where!

How many times do I have to tell you this!

you have admitted lacking women's rights in US and now having a second thought. Gimme a break!

look, if you will not believe me when I say we have our definition ot women's rights then it is your problem.

how many canadian girls appear in TV commercials promoting revealing clothes, perfumes, make up, food, car show rooms and the list goes on.

This is here considered an abuse of women. Prostitutes offer thier bodies for money, how does that differ from girls promoting perfumes and revealing clothes!

Have you seen any Qatari women do such a thing?!!

If I use this criteria, then not only will Canada lose the competition but it won't even be considered!

ummjake, if you have enough sense and fairness, which i doubt it, you should stop talking because you don't know what you are talking about.

you stated that Qatari women are not allowed to travel alone. Guess what! they can!

what does this make you? a lier at least. Or if this is overreaction, then you are a fool.

a more obtuse individual than you, CBD.

"I would say most of Qatari people will not allow thier girls to live alone. This is not freedom to us nor does it jeopardise women's rights"

Oh. Okay. Well, as long as we're all in agreement that being an adult and not getting to choose where and how you want to live isn't a freedom or right....

"There are many Qatari girls who get sent to study abroad for long times and exclusively for those girls, expenses are also covered for thier father to accompany them! This is not given to boys!"

That's right -- because FATHERS DON'T HAVE TO ACCOMPANY THEIR MALE CHILDREN WHEN THEY GO SOMEWHERE. Because here they think that men don't need another adult to watch over them.

Gee, I wish I could have this "right" they give women here, and have my father (or other male relative) accompany me everywhere I go and watch over me as if I was some errant soul who couldn't behave properly or make decisions on my own.

That would be absolutely fabulous.

Sign me up.

Choice for marriage? I don't think so (though this goes both ways here; the government has weird rules about getting approval for someone who is not Qatari/GCC. And until recently, they would not entertain giving Qatari citizenship to children of Qatari women married to other nationalities. THAT'S real fair and equitable...).

And if after EVERYTHING that ALL the people on here have pointed out to you so far, you STILL are going to think that Qatari women have it better overall than Canadians (or most other Western females), then you're smoking some serious crack, my friend...

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Gypsy look..

before we get any further and we can..

you country is shockinig in women's right based on the UN report.

you did not know Qatar provide shelters for women and you still accuse it! it is good that you admitted not knowing..but it should be noted, not against you, but against the argument. This shows how offset your judgement is.

regarding the points you use as a criteria here is my reply:

- girls around here get educated well. they go to elementary school, colleges, university. choice of schools is actually dictated by buses available to your particular area to avoid father or brother having to deliver and return the girls. Same goes for boys too!

My cousin's mother blocked him from studying abroad as was afraid he will be ruined when let alone. See; a guy blocked by a woman! I am not really sure where you get your info on women being blocked from school! it happens though but not as spread as you made it look.

- I would say most of Qatari people will not allow thier girls to live alone. This is not freedom to us nor does it jeopardise women's rights and if you don't believe me, ask the first Qatari girl you meet after reading this post.

- There are many Qatari girls who get sent to study abroad for long times and exclusively for those girls, expenses are also covered for thier father to accompany them! This is not given to boys!

- different sectors in doha pay employees differently which is normal. The only difference between women and men in salaries is the marriage allowance. A single Qatar male or female does not recieve this allowance. A married Qatari male will recieve this allowance but a married female will not- but her husband is getting it anyway.

- Choice for marriage is up to girls. Forcing happens but i would say minimal if not outdated. There are many girls who choose to marry and can refuse if they want to.

Now, be fair. Admit that you are in no position collectively than us. I am really allowing here where I could argue that we reach higher level!

Have you known regarding UN 2003 report before i post it here? honest answer please.

Hmm...

Cont. people I m reading..

___________________________________________

Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Hmm...

Cont. people I m reading....

___________________________________________

Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Hmm...

Cont. people I m reading....

___________________________________________

Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Let's look at my own rights as a Canadian woman, and I'll leave it up to you CBD if you think many Qatari girls would have the same opportunities.

-I attended elementary, high school and university (the university of my choice that was over 5 hours away from where my parents lived)

-I then applied for jobs all over the globe and moved to Korea BY MYSELF.

-I was paid the same amount as men for the same job.

-I live on my own and have chosen not to marry.

How many Qatari girls do you know that live seperately from their parents? Not many, even if they want to.

CBD I really have NO idea what your definition of women's rights is...You say that women's rights is having affairs with men? No, women's rights is about being treated equally with men, and this is not just about domestic abuse, in fact, domestic abuse is a just one aspect of women's rights. There's also rights to education (which many women in this region are denied), right to work, right to choose who you want to marry. Do you know how many woman are denied this?

You mention nation wide murders. Yes we have them, but so do you! Just do a google search of women and maids killed in Qatar. Every country in the world has domestic murders, and frankly I don't think 17,000 honour killings a year is a small amount.

Also I must laugh, but you do realize that these "nationwide murders" you refer to are mostly prostitutes, and destitute single mothers who had sex out of wedlock. According to your Eastern laws they'd be dead as well! Is it better when they're killed by they're government?

Was I wrong about the women's shelter, yes. I honestly didn't know there was one, and frankly, if I don't know, I wonder how many do.

compared to those in my own country, and that is true.

And we're not talking about women exhibiting better human rights. We're talking about women's rights being safe guarded and ensured in a country/region.

While Qatar may not apply certain Islamic rules anymore officially, it is clear that women here do not enjoy the same level of freedom as men do in a wide variety of areas. Whether you think that is officially sanctioned or whether that is religion or whether it is culture..to me, it doesn't matter. It's not the same.

Things are slowly changing and improving, but in no way is Qatar better in women's rights than Canada.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

ummjake..

you just admitted above that women here exhibit better human rights in certain areas!

to be honest and a hand on heart answer..if we compare Qatar to Canada in terms of women's rights..then they may not compete with us!

wide nation killing and murders on women!!

come on..i should be laughing in your post.

women's and mahrams. Islam is a religion we adopt for which we need to meet certain obligations. the mahram thing, comes from Islam though in Qatar it does not apply anymore (we may not be foolowing Islam as we should but this is a different issue)

Now, this is a proof that you know not what you are talking about! women can travel from Qatar alone!!!

Is anyone listening?!!

this women's right is ensured and yet u still condemn!

If you will tell me that women may not dress revealing clothes here, then men are the same!

I cannot wear revealing clothes and be welcomes by my family. This is respect and culture if you fail to comprehend humans diversity.

Revealing clothes where nipples, chests, underwear clothing are distinguished and clear to see are not welcomed by our society and in no way could that be a measure of women's or human's rights at all.

If you disagree, you may appeal to women worldwide to have affairs with other men to excercise thier women's rights in full.

Yes CBD, I was being comical.

When I said that there are no problems in Qatar for women, I was being sarcastic.

What I mean to say is that women here are systematically marginalized and victimized.

I get so irate thinking that this is a country where:

Girls/women can't go to work without the husband or father's express permission, or travel, or study.

How is that tolerated by the women here?

As we saw in the various divorce threads, women suffer mercilessly in the courts through divorce proceedings. Men are not legally obliged to provide meaningful and substantial support to their estranged wife and children.

How is that tolerated by the women here?

As Gypsy quotes above, there is so much proven research here that women are constantly beaten, raped and hurt in the home, yet the government does not allow any thorough research on the matter, and nor are they taking any practical steps to help combat the problem.

How is that tolerated by the women here?

Women who are abused within the marriage cannot even press criminal charges against their husband, since there the crime of abusing your wife doesn't actually exist. The legal system is so skewed towards the male, that it does not provide any protection for women who are beaten, raped or killed by their husbands.

It would really, really, really suck to be a woman in this country.

And before you say 'yes, but women are killed in Canada', may I first point out:

Killing a woman or beating a woman isn't evidence of a lack of women's rights.

Evidence (or not) of women's rights is when there exists:

Legislation to protect women

Funding and support of women's advocacy and protection groups

Constitutional protection enshrining the notion that women are citizens whose value is equal to that of men, and who should be afforded all the same rights, priveldges and freedoms as men.

You said:

"I am not sure about Qatar welcoming regular reviews or not, but regardless, Canada cannot compete with Qatar in women's rights.."

It DOES matter whether a country submits itself and its record on something for review. It's quite commonplace in this part of the world for countries to simply not keep any stats on an issue, and then when questioned they say there is no problem.

Convenient strategy, but it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

And I have to say, I almost choked laughing when I read that you think Qatar has a better women's right's record than Canada.

C'mon...I know you're feeling a little defensive about people criticizing countries over here, but let's be honest about things. Women in Qatar still need a man's permission/approval to do so many things. The vast majority of marriages are still semi-arranged. They cannot travel without a mahram (a religious restriction, I realize, but one that affects women and their ability to travel freely as they want). They cannot divorce as easily as men can. Their husband can take a second wife even if they do not want him to...

In so very many different ways, their lives are not as free as much as Canadian women's lives are.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

ummjake..i agree to that..but compared to Gypsy..i think i am unbiased...

My claim is that more or less we are equal in women's rights collectively..Gypsy thinks otherwise!!

Gypsy..

yes, we provide shelter and care for women. Check this:

http://www.gov.qa/wps/portal?New_WCM_Context=/wps/wcm/connect/cnt/en/1_Home/14_Ministries_and_Authorities/QFCWP_EN/

this was set up in 2002, 1 year prior to horrible UN report on canada!

Stop lieing will you? or worse confirming without knowledge!

Gypsy disappointed me in this thread honestly..i did not expect her to be so denying.

Gypsy, you started by saying east cannot compete and now u r saying at least we are subjecting our self for review..you are fading away...

by the way the word Shocking is explicitly stated by the UN committee..Nation wide crimes!! killing women!!

honour killing happens but is not a nation wide...it is very minimal! cannot compete to Canada here

5 years without progress in Canada!!

I am not sure about Qatar welcoming regular reviews or not, but regardless, Canada cannot compete with Qatar in women's rights..

to bes honest, I am myself shocked by Canada's women's rights, i did not expect this level of discrimination.

I am seriously questioning what could be worse than nation wide murders!

Fubar...you and I reached the question, which you raised, that problems are here and there, so what is 'on balance' position..you have been made aware that i acknowledge problems existing in the East..it was good to reach that stage..

Yet, you refer in your last post, comically, that no problems are here and things are fine.

Be a man! and don't change stands silently, cheaply!

I like a woman who knows how to argue well... :-)

And CBD -- you're not unbiased. None of us are.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Curious & Gypsy:

Too long for me to follow :( . Don't know about others

K.I.S.S.

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

William Blake

As for your "nationwide murders" against women (the 218 killed a year in Canada" compare it to the number of honour killings per year:

Europe

In 2005 Der Spiegel magazine reports: 'In the past four months, six Muslim women living in Berlin have been brutally murdered by family members', and goes on to cover the case of Hatun Sürücü - killed by her brother for not staying with her husband of forced marriage, but of 'living like a German'. Precise statistics on how many women die every year in such honor killings are hard to come by, as many crimes are never reported, said Myria Boehmecke of the Tuebingen-based women's group Terre des Femmes which, among other things, tries to protect Muslim girls and women from oppressive families. The Turkish women's organization Papatya has documented 40 instances of honor killings in Germany since 1996.[16][17]

Hatun Sürücü's brother and murderer, was convicted of murder and jailed for nine years and three months by a German court in 2006.[18]

March 2009, Turkish immigrant Gülsüm S. is killed for a relationship outside her family's plan for an arranged marriage - beaten to death with a stick, her face unrecognizable, because she loved the wrong man and was pregnant with his child.[19]

Every year in the UK, a dozen women are victims of honour killings, occurring almost exclusively to date within Asian and Middle Eastern families[20] and often cases are unresolved due to the unwillingness of family, relatives and communities to testify. A 2006 BBC poll for the Asian network in the UK found that 1 in 10 of the 500 young Asians polled said that they could condone the murder of someone who dishonoured their family[21] In the UK, in December 2005, Nazir Afzal, Director, West London, of Britain's Crown Prosecution Service, stated that the United Kingdom has seen "at least a dozen honour killings" between 2004 and 2005.[22] While precise figures do not exist for the perpetrators' cultural backgrounds, Diana Nammi of the UK's Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation is reported to have said:"about two-thirds are Muslim. Yet they can also be Hindu, Sikh and even eastern European."[23]

Another well known case was of Heshu Yones, who was stabbed to death by her father when her family heard a love song dedicated to her and suspected she had a boyfriend.[24] Another girl suffered a similar fate in Turkey.[25]

[edit] Middle East

In April 2008 it came to light that some months prior, a Saudi woman was killed by her father for chatting on Facebook to a man. The murder only came to light when a Saudi cleric referred to the case in an attempt to demonstrate the 'strife' that the website 'causes'.[26]

A June 2008 Report by the Turkish Prime Ministry's Human Rights Directorate, says that in Istanbul alone, there is one honour killing every week; and reports over 1,000 during the last 5 years. It adds that metropolitan cities are the location of many of these.[27]

UNICEF reported that in the Gaza strip and the West bank that "According to 1999 estimates, more than two-thirds of all murders were most likely 'honour' killings."[28]

In 2003 James Emery (adjunct professor of anthropology at Metropolitan State College of Denver and expert on Afghan politics and the Taliban) wrote: In the Palestinian communities of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Israel, and Jordan, women are executed in their homes, in open fields, and occasionally in public, sometimes before crowds of cheering onlookers. Honor killings account for virtually all of the murders of Palestinian women in these areas.[29]

As many as 133 women were killed in the Iraqi city of Basra alone in 2006 -- 79 for violation of "Islamic teachings" and 47 for honour killings, according to IRIN, the news branch of the U.N.'s Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. Amnesty International claims honour killings are also conducted by armed groups, not the government, upon politically active women and those who did not follow a strict dress code, as well as women who are perceived as human rights defenders.[30]

In Israel, an Arab honour killer was punished in March 2008 by being sentenced to jail for 16 years over [the] 'honour killing' of his sister" in the Hamda Abu Ghanem case.[31]

Jordan, considered one of the most liberal countries in the Middle East still witnesses instances of honor killings. In Jordan there is minimal gender discrimination and women are permitted to vote but men receive reduced sentences for killing their wives or female family members if they have brought dishonor to their family. Families often have sons who are considered minors, under the age of 18, to commit the honor killings. A loophole in the juvenile law allows minors to serve time in a juvenile detention center and they are released with a clean criminal record at the age of 18. Rana Husseini, a leading journalist on the topic of honor killings, states that “’[u]nder the existing law, people found guilty of committing honor killings often receive sentences as light as six months in prison’”[32]. There has been much outcry in Jordan for the amendments of Article 340 and 98. In 1999, King Abdullah created a council to review the gender inequalities in the country. The Council returned with a recommendation to repeal Article 340. “[T]he cabinet approved the recommendation, the measure was presented to parliament twice in November 1999 and January 2000 and in both cases, though approved by the upper house, it failed to pass the elected lower house”[33]. In 2001 after parliament was suspended, a number of temporary laws were created which were subject to parliamentary ratification. One of the amendments was that “husbands would no longer be exonerated for murdering unfaithful wives, but instead the circumstances would be considered as evidence for mitigating punishments”. Also to continue with the efforts of creating gender equality, women were given the same reduction in punishment if found guilty of the crime. But parliament returned to session in 2003 and the ratifications were rejected by the lower house after two successful readings in the upper house[34].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

At least we are putting ourselves up for review, what's the East doing? We're trying to enact changes while you're quite content to leave your women abused and uneducated.

What's "shocking" to us is a daily occurence and not a concern to you.

And that's a shelter for human trafficking, not for abused women, not the same thing, do you even know what women's shelters are? I'd like to see a Qatari woman go there and see what would happen.

Gypsy..

save the effort...

UN report is very clear and centered on women's rights. Having more men killed does not wipe out the fact that women's rights in Canada are "shocking".

In 2003 the report was released to say:

"In its 2003 report, the UN concluded Canada was failing women in a number of

categories, with committee members expressing

"shock" at the number of missing and

murdered women nationwide, as well as the disproportionately high rates of poverty

among single mothers, aboriginal women and women of colour."

You may refer to link given above.

In 2008, it is doubtful that Canada will get a passing grade!

it took 5 years with no achievements in this field and are still lacking!

Are Canadians so slow to understand what it takes to still be criticised by UN for 5 consecutive years without improvements? or are they not sincere enough?

Judging by you seems it seems the case.

Difference between you and me, is that I am unbiased and I know women are abused everywhere round the globe.

However, you consider yourself a critical thinker when you don't knowing what you are talking about!

and about the shelters, you are lieing. check this:

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=Local_News&subsection=Qatar+News&month=May2006&file=Local_News2006050843639.xml

Too many facts Gypsy. Try to stick to hearsay like everyone else.

Women here are happy. Everyone know it.

I know lots about women's rights. And no I can't deny women are murdered in Canada, women are killed by domestic violence in EVERY country in the world, but here's some stats for you.

Men are more than twice as likely to be murdered than woman and be the victims of homicides in Canada. In 1999, 363 men were murdered compared to 173 women.

Of those, 91 males died from beatings compared to just 32 women. 97 males and 47 females were stabbed, 121 men were shot versus 47 women

Over the 11 years from 1989 to 1999 an average of 421 men and only 218 women were killed each year. Twice as many men are murdered as women. Only in the Domestic Violence area did the number of women killed (109) exceed the number of men killed (77).

Women who kill can count on getting off completely or getting substantially lower sentences than men in similar situations.

http://www.canlaw.com/rights/whokills.htm

No Canada has not solved the problem of Women's rights, lord knows I wish they had, but the fact of the matter is millions of dollars goes every year to women's shelters, scholarships, etc. And most of these problems you mention are more a result of poverty and affect men as well as women.

Has the East managed to wipe out poverty yet?

Also no Arab countries have even submitted themselves to a UN review of women's rights, so what does that say about you?

And here are some articles for you curtosey of the Human Rights Watch http://www.hrw.org/en/search/apachesolr_search/womens+rights+in+the+Middle+East

Where they mention, but to name a few:

Domestic violence

Female Genital Mutilation

Honour Killings

Abortion of female fetusus

No access to education for females

Dowry crimes, etc etc etc

As being MAJOR problems in the East with regards to women's rights.

And here's some articles from your own Gulf Times, which refers to Domestic abuse against women as PANDEMIC in the Arab world:

"Despite its serious consequences, and its increasing frequency, domestic violence in Arab and Islamic countries is not considered an issue of special concern. Research carried out in several Arab countries, however, shows that at least one out of three women is beaten by her husband.

The extent and effect of this pandemic – since it practically affects all countries in the region - needs to be better addressed. Governments should start by obtaining better statistical information about this problem. As the United Nations Development Fund for Women (UNIFEM) has stated: “To date, there is no comprehensive and systematic mechanism for collecting reliable data on violence against women in Arab countries.”

The stubborn fact is that in many countries violence against women, especially in the domestic setting, is seen as normal behaviour. The belief that men have a right to abuse women tends to perpetuate violent situations. In that sense, domestic violence exemplifies perverse power relationships. " http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=276769&version=1&template_id=46&parent_id=26

And finally, from your own papers: http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=279322&version=1&template_id=36&parent_id=16

The Qatari families are facing serious problems as 14% of wives have been victims of domestic violence while 38% are not satisfied with their lives, a recent study revealed.

The study included a random sample of 1,117 wives from around Qatar.

The indicators of domestic violence used by the researcher included physical, verbal and psychological abuses, including battering, forced sex, threatening with weapons, threatening with divorce, insulting, verbal abuse, sexual harassment of children, and taking the salary of the wife.

Conducted by Professor Kulthum al-Ghanim, a sociologist at Qatar University, the study blamed many of the domestic violence cases on the prevalent cultural values enhancing the distinction between the two sexes in power and status.

Of the 1,117 surveyed, 34 wives said they have been frequently slapped on their faces by husbands, while 49 said they were sometimes beaten up and 77 responded that this rarely happened with them. However, 943 said they have never been slapped.

About being battered and insulted in the presence of children, the study showed that 4% of the surveyed women have been frequently battered or insulted by husbands, while 6% said the practice was sometimes committed by their husbands, and 6.5% responded that this rarely happens with them.

However, 82% said this never happened with them.

About weird behaviours by husbands, 78 wives said their husbands used to gift them after beating them.

To the question on forced sex, 133 wives said they have been forced by husbands to have sex with them, while 143 responded that they were rarely subjected to such experience and 820 said the practice never happened with them. “This means that some husbands have misunderstandings about the married relationship,” the study concluded.

About threatening with divorce, 10% said their husbands keep threatening them with divorce as a way of exposing them to humiliation, while 10.4% said they were rarely threatened by husbands and 77% said they have never been subject to such threat.

One of the alarming results which the study cautioned against is that 72 wives said their husbands have committed sexual harassment against their children. However, 1,024 said this never happened with their children.

“Although the percentage is not high compared to those who said their children have never been subject to sexual harassment by father, this is the worst domestic violence that can be committed against children,” the study said

and

http://www.qatar-tribune.com/data/20090429/content.asp?section=nation3_5

According to data provided by the Qatar Foundation, cases of women and children abuse are on a rise, with more cases reported now than a few years ago.

and

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=Local_News&subsection=Qatar+News&month=January2008&file=Local_News200801082225.xml

criminal court here is hearing a sensational murder case involving an Arab resident who is accused of killing his wife following suspicion that she had an affair.

and

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=Local_News&month=November2007&file=Local_News200711262446.xml

The Qatar Foundation for Women and Children reported an additional 53 cases of violence against women in the same year and a majority 34 related to Qatari families.

The fact that 34 incidents of family violence took place in the Qatari community and only 19 among expatriates is alarming since the population of non-Qataris here is huge, said Dr Kulthum Al Ghanem, from Qatar University, in a paper she presented at a symposium on ‘Violence against Women’ .

and my favourite

http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=186861&version=1&template_id=36&parent_id=16

A STUDY has proven that there is violence against women within the family in Qatar. The survey, conducted by Kaltham al-Ghanem of the Social Department at Qatar University, sampled 2,778 QU female students, comprising 84% of Qataris and 16% of other nationalities, aged between 17 and 25 years.

The survey is the first scientific study on violence in Qatar, the result of which will be used to advocate and explore the necessity of enacting legislation on violence against women in the country, sources said.

Speaking to Gulf Times about the findings of the survey at a roundtable on violence against women in the Qatari family, al-Ghanem said the results reveal that most of the violence against females emanate from within the family, particularly from male members like brother, uncle and father.

“The essence of this workshop is to create awareness that there is violence within the family here, because most females are not even aware that they are victims of domestic violence. We want them to know and speak out,” she said.

Al-Ghanem said that 63% of those surveyed were found to be victims of beating, while 52 cases of “strong violence” like rape and about 120 cases of sexual harassment were recorded."

And the sad thing is with all this abuse, it's still not considered a priority and there are NO women's shelters or abuse hotlines in Qatar.

Gypsy..

you have just proved to be knowing nothing about women's rights even in your own country, assuming u r a canadian or worse hiding information.

UN is shocked about women's rights in Canada. Saudi may lack women's rights, some of it due to ur own definitions, but you cannot deny murdered women in Canada are nation wide.

I cannot believe you are defending Canada based on a UN report.

yet you say east cannot compete with you!!

when ummjake admitted you took exception on lumping western with the US and now you are doing the very same thing..lumping East on Saudi!!! though in Saudi you won't see nation wide murders against women!!

Get real!

In the east:

A woman is a sister, love, wife and mother

In the west:

A woman is a human being ... just like any other!

"The larger grows the island of my knowledge, the

longer stretch the shores of my ignorance."

William Blake

So CBD, how are single mom's and mom's who have kid's out of wedlock doing in the East? Not to mention those living in poverty?

The point is that Canada looks into these issues and is constantly evaluating its progress. What's Saudi doing? taking away women's health clubs?

Popcorn, this thread deviated away from women's rights a few pages back.

At the heart of the issue is the observation that sometimes the west appears to be more keen to address issues (such as women's rights) on the other side of the world than in their own backyard.

CBD thinks that such behavior is hypocritical, and often so do most westerners, including myself.

The west has also used the illusory notion that it is invading countries, overthrowing regimes and empowering opposition activists with the noble goal of improving women's rights (amongst other things). This might be their stated goal, but in a few cases this has been a lie, and most people wouldn't disupte that.

Anyway, I'm too busy to join the dots, but you get my drift.

What has any of the above got to do with Womens Rights????

Fubar..

I am glad you mentioned 'on balance'

I agree with you in essence…it is good to help some people rather than no people provided no damage is done.

If the US, for example, will intervene in Eastern issues trying to help people, promote democracy and raise standards of women’s right (to name a few) and does that then may god bless them. However, if they are going to claim helping the people and present facts and reports (even if they are right) and use them to invade, kill, steal nation’s wealth, destroy stability then hell NO!

US invaded Iraq supposedly to remove a dictator, promote democracy, protect minorities, and promote world peace without any advancement. Democracy, Human rights, stability is now worse than it was before US came in. Please also note that reports issued to justify Invasion were lies not facts as have been known by now.

To conclude, if western governments will have wide open eyes on women’s rights in east and use it to invade countries and destroy them then I am against it and in such a case, having no body criticize anybody is better.

Am I talking now?

I'm always amazed at how the US loves to give money to the third world for education, presumably to try and ease third world poverty or something.

It's a wonder to me that while the US has such high and noble goals when it comes to achieving aducational outcomes in Nigeria, it can't even attain its own standards in the US when it's closer to the problem.

But then there's an argument also to be made for trying to identify and address problems wherever you find them, even if you don't find the ones in your own backyard. Take for instance Spain launching its own war crimes investigation against Isreali activity in 2002 ( http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1082932.html )

Is it valid to argue that Spain should ignore allegations of war crimes committed by Israel, and instead focus on solving its own domestic problems with ETA and Basque seperatists?

Or is it better to say that on balance, its actions against Israel are still valid and reasonable, regardless of what you may believe about Spain's ability to handle domestic issues?

Israelis might argue that Spain is being hypocritical and is violating Israel's sovereignty and presenting a possible conflict of jurisdiction.

Palestinians might argue that Spain should be encouraged to pursue the case.

Which course of action will most benefit mankind?

fubar..

I don't mind criticising the East as hard as possible as long as objectivity and independence are insured.

if western governments will take a humantarian role sincerely fighting for humans then i will be the first to join even if it is against the east. It is only when they keep monitoring and reporting East's issues and turning blind on thier nations.

Remember that when you vote next time.

ummjake..i am satisfied with this when adding a bit of hope..

However, you may need to re-evaluate what Gypsy said.

United Nations released a report in 2003 that states the following:

"In its 2003 report, the UN concluded Canada was failing women in a number of

categories, with committee members expressing

"shock" at the number of missing and

murdered women nationwide, as well as the disproportionately high rates of poverty

among single mothers, aboriginal women and women of colour."

http://www.westcoastleaf.org/userfiles/file/Vancouver%20Sun%20Shelagh%20Day.pdf

take this also, http://www.cpj.ca/en/poverty-violates-womens-human-rights-un-warns-canada

in the same document, it refers to the UN which will be released in a week from this publication, and doubts that Canada will recieve a pasing grade!

Canada is lacking in Women's rights!

Remember this is from UN's report.

I agree Ummjake.

I think most countries have something to learn from most other countries, broadly speaking.

It is only through being open, honest, and critical, that different nations feel compelled to change for the better.

If no country could criticize any other country on women's rights (or any topic for that matter) we would see a race to the bottom on the issue; there would be no incentive for different countries to adopt the latest policies, embrace best practices, and aspire to higher standards.

At the heart of democracy is the freedom to criticize, ultimately by voting out one party and replacing one party or leader with another. No party will ever be perfect, but the process of continual change through elections leads to incremental change in areas such as women's rights.

No democratic country, as far as I'm aware, has ever reduced or wound back women's rights. As slow as the pace of change has been in most countries, it has at all times been constant, positive change.

The 'east' should stop feeling so threatened by the 'west' on these sorts of topics, and embrace the idea that women ought to be able to vote, drive, study and travel without a male's consent, as is the case in many 'eastern' countries.

have progress to make on various different facets of "women's rights", I think both are able to be criticized in that regard (but keep in mind Gypsy's point that there is a vast difference among many countries in the West in terms of their women's rights, as evidenced by the difference between the US and Canada on maternity leave -- so it is hard to generalize about them all).

Though I kind of would like my country to be 'accused of women's rights' -- because that'd be a good thing!

;-)

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

ummjake,

I agree that we agree to disagree...you have not replied to my specific question though..

West should not accuse East of women's rights and East should not accuse West of women's rights.

True or false?

This is the problem ummjake. We really need to stop lumping the US with the rest of the Western nations, they really can't compete when it comes to social programs and responsibilities.

to the US and not the West in general.

Things are pretty sucky in the US.

"The United States is one of only five countries that does not provide or require employers to provide some form of paid maternity leave, placing it behind a majority of the world when it comes to instituting family-oriented job policies, according to a new study.

In a study from McGill University's Institute for Health and Social Policy, the United States, Lesotho, Liberia, Swaziland, and Papua New Guinea were the only countries out of 173 studied that didn't guarantee any paid leave for mothers. Among the 168 countries that do, 98 offer 14 or more weeks of paid leave.

Overall, the study's other major findings indicate that workplace policies in the United States for families -- such as paid sick days and support for breast-feeding -- are weaker than those in all high-income countries as well as many middle and low-income countries.

"More countries are providing the workplace protections that millions of Americans can only dream of," Jody Heymann, director of McGill's Institute for Health and Social Policy, who led study, said in a statement.

At least 145 countries provide paid sick days for short- and long-term illnesses, with 127 countries providing for a week or more every year, the study found. In addition, 137 countries require its employers to provide paid annual leave, whereas the Unites States does not guarantee any sort of paid leave.

Under the Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993, U.S. workers are allowed to take up to 12 weeks leave for to tend to family or medical needs, but their absence is unpaid."

http://www.inc.com/news/articles/200702/family.html

I think they DO provide paid maternity leave here, plus you get extra time off (one hour/day?) if breastfeeding for the first year of your child's life.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Ummjake I don't see how here is better about maternity leave. Here women can only get 3 months off, in Canada it's 1 year paid maternity leave and 6 months paid paternity leave. I think that might be a bit better.

Kaiesj,

I'm not angry, I'm exasperated. There’s a difference.

You’ve asked me to provide scientific proof for 1+1=2, and that fire burns the skin. After about 5 minutes of search you will be able to find a few articles on what you’ve requested. I’ve included some below.

Still waiting for your ‘evidence’ that women are so irrational that they aren’t capable of carrying out complex tasks as well as men.

It’s no different to people saying that Indians ‘just are’ worse drivers than Brits. Or Bangladeshis ‘just are’ smelly. Or Jews ‘just are’ evil. Just because it’s a belief you hold, doesn’t mean that it’s true

Strongly held convictions, no matter how commonly held, aren’t always right.

A long time ago it was believed that ‘negroes’ (as they were then called) were too stupid to do anything but pick cotton. Or Indians were too stupid to rule their own country, hence the presence of the British. There are people in Qatar who are convinced that Vietnamese are cannibals and who see all Asian women as prostitutes.

As I said, if you are so utterly convinced that women do not possess the levels of rational thought required to hold higher office then why don’t you argue in a rational manner and provide some proof to back up your claim?

Here’s the proof that 1+1=2:

The proof starts from the Peano Postulates, which define the natural numbers N. N is the smallest set satisfying these postulates:

P1. 1 is in N.

P2. If x is in N, then its "successor" x' is in N.

P3. There is no x such that x' = 1.

P4. If x isn't 1, then there is a y in N such that y' = x.

P5. If S is a subset of N, 1 is in S, and the implication (x in S => x' in S) holds, then S = N.

Then you have to define addition recursively:

Def: Let a and b be in N. If b = 1, then define a + b = a' using P1 and P2). If b isn't 1, then let c' = b, with c in N (using P4), and define a + b = (a + c)'.

Then you have to define 2:

Def: 2 = 1'

2 is in N by P1, P2, and the definition of 2.

Theorem: 1 + 1 = 2

Proof: Use the first part of the definition of + with a = b = 1.

Then 1 + 1 = 1' = 2 Q.E.D.

And for skin burns, try to read any of the following medical links:

Ahrens M. (2001) The U.S. fire problem overview report: Leading causes and other patterns and trends. Quincy (MA): National Fire Protection Association.

American Burn Associations (2002). Burn Incidence Fact Sheet.

CDC, National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS). (1998) National vital statistics system. Hyattsville (MD): U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, CDC, National Center for Health Statistics.

Gibran NS, Heimbach DM. (2000) Current status of burn wound pathophysiology. Clinical Plastic Surgery; 27 (1): 11-22.

Gueugniaud PY, et al. (2000) Current advances in the initial management of major thermal burns. Intensive Care Med; 26 (7): 848-56.

Hall JR. (2001) Burns, toxic gases, and other hazards associated with fires: Deaths and injuries in fire and non-fire situations. Quincy (MA): National Fire Protection Association, Fire Analysis and Research Division.

Hilton G. (2001) Emergency. Thermal burns. AJ7N, American Journal of Nursing. 101(11):32-4.

Istre GR, McCoy MA, Osbom L, Bamard JJ, Bolton A. (2001) Deaths and injuries from house fires. New England Journal of Medicine; 344:1911—16.

Karter MJ. (2005) Fire loss in the United States during 2004. Quincy (MA): National Fire Protection Association, Fire Analysis and Research Division.

National Fire Protection Association (1999) NFPA National Fire Escape Survey, Quincy (MA).

Parker DJ, Sklar DP, Tandberg D, Hauswald M, Zumwalt RE. (1993) Fire fatalities among New Mexico children. Annals of Emergency Medicine; 22(3):5 17—22.

Yowler CJ, Fratianne RB. (2000) Current status of burn resuscitation. Clinical Plastic Surgery; 27 (1): 1-10.

It can only be ignorance to consider "Men" and "Women" as if they were standard products, coming out of a production line, each one exactly with same features as all the rest.

It's not about men or women, it’s about each individual unique - the human being!

We are an ocean of diversity, no one is the same as the other, regardless their gender, race, religion, culture, etc, etc....

Some individuals are educated in such a coercive manner that there is no intelligent argument or scientific conclusions that would make them think out of their box, as Mr Paul said, out of their tiny little world!

the world is perfect; we all have our faults and things that need to be improved.

That being said, however, I would argue, as I said earlier, that the East is better about certain things (family leave and benefits, etc.) whereas the West has a better track record on other things (educational system, etc.).

I do think that women's rights here are in need of improvement, and I won't apologize for saying so. That said, they also need improving in my country (though I think women fare better in my country than here). In general, I find that more religious societies tend to have more restrictions on what is/is not appropriate for women, and this to me amounts to oppression.

You would disagree, I'm sure...but we can agree to disagree. :-)

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

I mentioned Jade Goody as her death has made the UK goverment look at the screening of cervical cancer. So yeah I think she has been influential. Like her or loathe her; she made a difference.

PM & ummjake..

Then you and I agree that we are collectively close to each other to the extent that West should not accuse East of women's rights and vice versa..

We agree if I understood both of your last posts..and if so..i believe time spent here is justified and that we did reach significant point in understanding each other.

Hope this is the case.

yet I have friends who have chosen to change their name and adopt that of their husbands.

It is up to the individual, as Gypsy said.

Nobody is saying that we in the west are perfect, CBD. God knows, we mess things up as badly as the next guy.

I would argue that this region (and some other European countries) are FAR, FAR ahead of us in certain things such as guaranteed maternity leave, etc. Many benefits that relate to family issues are much more enshrined here than they are in the US -- so in that regard, you're decades ahead of us.

This isn't a "let's slam the Arab world" thread.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

That's tradition, and many women choose not to do it anymore. And it's by no means enforced.

well let us not argue there...which could also prove that we don't necessarily have same definitions of issues.

How about stripping women's surnames to husbands?

Women here maintain thier family name and we consider it thier right to do so? clearly and based on our definition, westerners deprive women from this right!

Fubar,

I can feel the anger in between ur words, relax.

1+1=2 right? hope u dont have any doubt on that.

did u find any article in any scientific or any other type of magazines conducting a study on this to prove it?

fire burns the skin, any study abt that?

we don't waist time investigating obvious and historically proven thing.

why I dont get angry or offended when someone says

man are more aggressive

women are better in jobs like nursing etc

simply becoz it is true, and I can't deny it

men and women complete each other women is better than man in sthg and vice versa

that it life. if every body is perfect and excatly same like the other, what would be the meaning of society, family etc

people live in families, tribes and societies becoz they need each other becoz none can do evrything together

a kid rised by a woman only or man only will have sthg missing in his education. he will lack of sthg

it is not a bad thing to say that usually women tends to be affected by emotions more than man it is a good thing becoz life is also abt feeling also not rational

all the decision to take in our lives r not rational

hope this clears everything

fubar..

I will not say i disagree with studies u refered to but i will not rely on them. I can bring you studies and researches that claim men are smarter than men on which i would rely too!

I have no objection to equality between men and women.

However, equality as i mentioned earlier needs to be defined.

to treat men and women blindly the same would be a sin.

this way, we may end up giving men medical vacations when thier wives deliver children!

you have to factor natural difference in your assessment.

How is doing something that you choose to do against human rights? You need to learn what the definition of human rights is. You don't consider it against your human rights you consider it against your morals. The difference is in the West women can choose to do this or choose not to. In the East they have no choice.

Gypsy..

what i referred to was not sexual exploitaion!

i referred to movie stars and singers who reveal thier bodies to promote perfumes, cars etc. and who appear in sexual scenes in movies which is legal and endorsed.

we consider this against women's human rights over here!

difference is that we don't bother western governments as much as they knowingly bother us.

missing my point only makes me repeat myself. please do me a favour.

brainwashed by his peers and unable to see the whole world.

Leave him be....

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

referring to? I reread my post and couldn't find anything that I would term as "strong language".

You said that:

"women and men are equal factoring in thier differences. What I mean by this is that women are physically not stronger than men, women get pregnant, etc.

There are differences which you cannot ignore and dealing with them does not jeopardise women's rights.

why do you ingore areas where Islam, for example, gave incentives to women that were not given to men!"

I agree that men and women are physically different.

I would disagree that dealing with these differences does not jeopardize women's rights. I don't think it always does, but it can.

Case in point: another QL thread about the woman in the UAE who had a car accident and lost the 9 month old fetus that she was carrying. Officials in the UAE suggested that women in their third trimester of pregnancy shouldn't drive unless it's an emergency. To me, if this actually became a law, it would infringe on women's rights -- even though those who initiated it THINK that they're protecting women by doing this.

Kind of like how people here tend to think that Muslim women don't HAVE TO go to the mosque to pray. It's nice that women are given the option/choice to pray either at home or in the mosque, but instead how it is practiced here by most Khaleejis that I have met is that it is frowned upon/actively discouraged for women to go to the mosque. While men can see how THEIR going to mosque might help create a greater sense of community and fellowship within their faith, they don't see the same benefit for women and actively impede that happening.

To me, this then becomes a situation where women are denied equal rights.

kaiesj -- your final line about letting Muslim women fight for their own rights if they're feeling deprived of them is a little disingenuous. There are many groups of people around the world who are deprived of their rights, and often times they are not strong enough to turn the tide. While I would agree that you shouldn't force something upon a group if they don't want it, I would also argue that many marginalized populations need others to act as advocates on their behalf.

I genuinely believe that many females in the East want more rights and freedoms than they currently enjoy - so what is wrong if others advocate and work together for them to achieve that? You act like people are trying to proselytize and I don't think that's the case.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

I can't believe I need to actually write this, but it seems there are a few people here who just do not seem to grasp the idea of scientific fact.

It is a proven fact that women have the ability to bear children. It has been seen, reported, and established beyond reasonable doubt that this is true. It is what we call a fact.

Science can also prove that drunk people behave differently to sober people. It has been seen, measured, reported, and published in medical journals. it is what we call a fact.

Just SAYING that a woman is not as rational as a man, doesn't make it a fact.

There are 1000s of medical journals, scientific journals, behavioral journals, psychological journals (the list goes on) that study and report on such claims.

If, as you say, it is so very very very obvious to EVERYONE that women are not as rational as men, then it will be the EASIEST thing in the world to find even just ONE scientific study to justify your assertion.

But just saying that women aren't as capable as men of rational thought is ludicrous, and paints you as a sexist moron.

Since men are so freaken rational (compared to women) then why not debate rationally, rather than emotionally????? Why not present facts and proven findings???? Or is that too rational for you?

Well said,

I do totally agree with u except on the pregnancy issue coz we're talking abt decisions so it is more mentally than physically. being even disabled will not affect ur mind it may make it stronger.

they need a reason to struggle and to say women is not having her rights thatswhy they ignore thoses incentives and positive facts in Islam.

Ummjake and all,

Koran says: u have ur religion and we have our religion

so everyone keeps his values for his society, what applies in a society can not automatically be applied in another.

If Muslim women feel they're not having all rights, let them fight by them selves to get it.

Well sexual explotiation is just as rampent in the East as the West CBD, it's just covered up and not reported. Domestic violence is more common, and, as a rule their are less opportunities for women beyond becoming a wife. These are the human rights violations we talk about.

I thought this thread would be about the Iron lady Maggie Thatcher.. But it is any thing but about her..disappointed..:(

I beleive that women are moe emotional than men and won't explain that more than I already did, coz u didnt get what I already said or refuse to admit.

I won't also counter against the assertion that men are more aggressive than women coz it I admit it.

just try also to find a link between what u call "aggressive" and " emotional". it goes without saying....

I will gladly admit ur opinion when US will elect a women as president.

I'm done here.

ummjakke..

just a hint which could help..use of strong language is not very common in our culture unless you reach the conflict stage.

second, we believe men and women are equal. Kaiesj may have not represented exact picture but let me as k you some questions:

women and men are equal factoring in thier differences. What I mean by this is that women are physically not stronger than men, women get pregnant, etc.

There are differences which you cannot ignore and dealing with them does not jeopardise women's rights.

why do you ingore areas where Islam, for example, gave incentives to women that were not given to men!

Seems to me most people on here (men AND women) were simply asking you to defend your assertion that it's a widely-known and universally-accepted "TRUTH" that women are too emotional to handle certain jobs/roles.

And other than to cite Adam and Eve as an example (which, sorry to say, isn't a really strong piece of evidence for your argument), you haven't really done that.

Nobody is saying you can't believe or think something yourself, but I/we took issue with you brandishing it about on here like it was crystal clear to everyone with a brain that women cannot be rational because they menstruate, and thus are not capable of making important decisions.

Human biology shows that both men and women have lots of hormones running through their bodies. And while women have more of one kind and men have more of another kind, we all have a certain amount of them all, and they affect behavior (and not just women's behavior, and not just the hormone that women have more of).

So if you're going to argue that women are more emotional than men (and thus unfit to make decisions), you'll have to counter against the assertion that men are more aggressive than women (and thus unfit to make decisions).

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Lusitano,

there are many nice people in this world who see no value in the koran, bible, torah, and still respect, share, and practice good with no need of showing it!

We're not here to talk abt religion, but I need to reply to ur comment

Those people should be blind not to see obvious things and miss alot. because ther is alot of answers inside.

As a muslim I beleive and respect those three books and see alot of values in.

If u mean that u want scientifc and proven facts, I would tell u one thing;

Koran has reported deep description of some astrnonomic phenomena more than 1400 years back, thoses facts and things have been discovered by science only recently

and the list is long for such examples

what I mean here is that human brain is in perpetual evolution but has limits so what our ancesters couldnt explain, is currently explained and proven but at that time they refused to accept ( like the earth was not plate) So the same applies now, there might be alot of things that we can't explain now scientifically because we are not ready ofr that and human race is evoluating so one day may be will understand more and more

thats why, as believer in God, I go back to Koran in such cases.

so refering to religions is not a cinstraint for human evolution, some times answer is in front of us but we can't see it.

Nepotism is not a fiefdom of east........

Did Bush Jr not carry the legacy of his father Bush Sr.. and did not Bush Sr not make a comment during the time of US elections that my younger son could also become a president...

Were not Kennedy' not carrying the legacy ..

And what about Clinton.. does she not carry the legacy of her husband........

Gypsy..

we don't disagree on lacking education in East in general..even for both men n women...it is the wrong measure being used to judge eastern nations.

however, to release an absolute judgement that Western women in particular are in better position than eastern women, is something i simply don't agree with.

For example, hollywood movie stars and thier ads and sexual scenes is considered by morals an insult to Women's right..something we largely condemn over here but West is leading on this area..this is a disgrace to humanity and yet you have thousands of companies support such acts..

similarly we do have issues here of different nature maybe..but when you calculate the net effect..you get the same level more or less..

Western governments to find a reason to get involved use arguments like human rights and women's rights and lie by ommission, which is effective tool, where they hide many many info that could turnover the picture!

So Western governments start the accusation not East! and i am not defending Eastern governments which is very bad and corrupt!

Just pointing out that you said it's:

"the comments emotionaly influenced of some women on this conversations ( feelings of anger that made some insult me for being honnest and expresing my point of view. imagine that this kind of person in a president and I tell her that, what would she do? in a simple conversation that person insulted me so what if that person has the pwoer to do more? ....."

When it's actually the men who are insulting you.

Frankly I agree that most women, especially in the past, aren't fit for leadership roles, but that's got nothing to do with gender or genetics, but rather the way they were raised and the gender sterotypes enforced on them by society.

I'm not here to convince anybody abt anything

just exchanging points of view

and I dont mind being insulted by women, men or a gay, it is a price to speaky freely

Unfortunately some pople can't control them selves, it is sad but it is a fact also.

kaiesj,

Avoid using religious arguments as they are not universal.

there are many nice people in this world who see no value in the koran, bible, torah, and still respect, share, and practice good with no need of showing it!

one more thing to add:

every country has its culture, religion, traditions etc...

so we should stop criticizing them and issuing judgements that they're wrong or right. it is their country and they're free

in some wester countries like France, Muslim students can't go to school with Hijab. can someone tell me if this reduces her rights as a women. Yes it does, but France is non Muslim country and even if it is against human rights, I still think that France is their country and they're free to do what they want.

BA allows its staff to wear it and that agreat thing

so it is not about west and east only, it depends on persons points of view, cultures etc....

so instead of blaming and judging LET'S TRY TO UNDERSTAND

Sorry to say it Kaisjei, but most of the people insulting you are men. Which kind of goes against your whole, women are emotional thing.

Morning every body

Ummjake

the comments emotionaly influenced of some women on this conversations ( feelings of anger that made some insult me for being honnest and expresing my point of view. imagine that this kind of person in a president and I tell her that, what would she do? in a simple conversation that person insulted me so what if that person has the pwoer to do more? .....

anyway if this example, and the history didnt convince u, sure future will do.

PM

I do totally agree with u abt education.

we're still far in some countries but well advanced in some other. have a look to north africa ( Morroco, algeria and Tunisia) numbers would nicely surprise u.

Popcorn girl,

JUST for the joke, we say " behind every big problem, there is a women.

I do agree with u that women has influenced all aspects of life as a mother first when we're born, as a sister, as partner, as a wife, ... in many aspects of life

the names u mentioned are called great women

For all,

just to add abt women in islam:

the word woman has been mentioned in the Holly Quran 22 times and exactly for the word man which is also the number of the human chromosoms in the ovum ( excluding XY chromosom)

a proof of equality

Well education might be open for women here in Qatar, it's not avaiable for women EVERYWHERE. You mention Pakistan CBD, perhaps you should look at how easy it is for women there to be educated. The answer is Not Very.

Jade Goody ??????????????????????????????????

popcorn..

I agree to this without a doubt...it is only when people use false measures and release bad judgements...

Women rule the world no question.

Curious, took the time to read your thread time and time again and looked at all what was written.

The world has always had women who have been powerful and we always will.

Just take the trouble to goolge influential women and you will see heaps. The women may not be 'political' or 'royal' but women all over the world have influenced. It may have been behind the scenes but they have had heaps of influence in all aspects of life.

To name a few:

Mary (Mother of Jesus)

Joan of Arc

Queen Elizabeth Ist

Queen Victoria

Queen Elizabeth 2nd

Queen Beatrix of the Neverlands

Marie Antoinette

Marie Curie

Margaret Thatcher

Princess Diana

Emily Pankhust

Florence Nightingale

Helen of Troy

Queen Bodecia

Cleopatra

Mother Theresa of Calcutta

Benazier Bhutto

Kylie Mingoue

Jade Goodey

Nora Batty

Hilary Clinton

Sheika Mouza

Joanna Lumley (Gurka debacle)

Condolisa Rice

Golda Meir

and my next door neighbour Shelia Convict.

Women are very strong characters and we will always make a difference. You men THINK you rule the world but that is only because we ALLOW you to think it :-))))))))))

PM..

Thanks for making this a fruitful forum!

I agree that education in qatar has been growing in quality and quantity and we are way back behind countries such as the US.

Unfortunately, most people fail to look at issues on a 360 degrees basis and focus on one dimension to release a general judgement.

I conclude by this to mimic an American story (which you are probably aware of) with this Forum:

Benjamin Franklin: “I have,” said he, “often and often in the course of the Session, and the vicissitudes of my hopes and fears as to its issue, looked at that behind the President without being able to tell whether it was rising or setting: But now at length I have the happiness to know that it is a rising and not a setting Sun.”

Your view/opinion PM has been a rising sun for me in this issue addressed by this Forum!

Mr Paul...you stated:

"Im more open minded than you will ever be, so dont ever ...

f******* dare to lecture me on your twisted outlook on life and anything to do with the 'west'"

jusge your statement by how politely you put it and use of impolite words and you will see why i think you are no better than me! and you can see that u think u r better than me, which i never claimed until u mentioned it!

PM,

I agree that there are rights not excercised, but education is open to all...it is a fact that we have poor education but we send females abroad and so..

level of poor education is for men too!

my issues is the western governments claim and accusation of other nation's while they project themslves at the top of the mountain!

so i don't think we disagree here!

You just think I do, in yer own little world,and I can see just fine thank you.

But,carry on thinking what yer like.

After all, you just live in yer own little blinkered world where everything is peachy effin dandy.

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

sorry all..got caught and i am back...sorry if i missed some good thoughs but i have gone through about 70 new posts or so..

Cynbob..you said to me “Your ideas are as distorted as the pic on your avatar”

This is worse than me telling you you are biased which is the case. Is not this lame too since you could not keep up with the facts?

kaiesj..

you said earlier: “we're not here to fight or to exchange such words, we're here for an open minded conversation where we should control ourselves of such things. different opinions r accepted and to be discussed, not insults. we're mature.”

you are sensible and understanding even if we disagree dialogue continues..wish some people get your experience..hat off to you!

You cannot stop people though from quoting inappropriate words so respond to worthy ones only!

Mr Paul..you have been fed raw information that you are better than others so your support to evils is secured and consequently get mislead to where you cannot see!

PM..Thank you!

You said: “whether they have token participation in the political process. I would base it upon their levels of education, opportunities to work equal to men, and their legal right to self-determination.”

This is exactly my point! As can been seen above, many people support and give facts about women leaders when it is not a good measure for properly excercised women’s rights!

So it is logical to ask, why should western powers make their judgements on nation’s based on unreliable measures! And yet victims of propaganda shout along!

Alexa..you are relieved for not being raised here which I do understand..we share the same desire! No to offend westerners..but I love my values…and I am sure westerners love their’s too..so may happiness fill their hearts with whatever pleases them. However, although i don't like to be raised in a western country, i understand westerners and have no problems with them when they express what you stated!

Regarding women in Islam, be it known that Islam, has given mothers priority 3 times as much as that for a man!

Prophets' last words while dieing was to promote taking care of women!

Islam, rewards heaven for whom raises 3 daughters properly and not sons!

Just to name a few..

Now tell me men should become pregnant and share the pain to prove we are equal!

Women as do men need to understand there are differences which cannot be ignored!

To treat women exactly same way as men need to be defined not open to interpretations!

Peace

here on QL have been considered to be complete wankers.

You might claim the opposite.

Can YOU give me REAL facts to prove the opposite?

Sorry if my sarcasm is annoying, but honestly, I find these kinds of discussions to be irritating.

As fubar said, you are free to hold that opinion. But please don't go around asserting what you think as a commonly accepted FACT or TRUTH unless you can back it up with evidence -- because it just makes you look foolish.

Clearly what you believe (that women are the weaker sex, and are prone to being hormonal and thus are not suited for jobs that require decision-making devoid of emotion) is NOT a general truth of the universe, and wishing it were so doesn't make it that way.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Lets look at Maggie Thatcher.

The Argies thought that she would be too weak to go to war over the Falkland Islands after they invaded it.

HOW WRONG WERE THEY !

She assembled a task force and sent them down to retake the islands.

The trade unions also tried to get too big for their boots....She soon put them in their place as well.

Now, the glassback twats who pretend to run the UK nowadays would NEVER even think of doing that, in case they offend some albainian pickpockets or some cardigan wearing, bearded tree hugging liberals, in the name of human rights.

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

1- Check history of human race since Adam and Eve

2- Exclude the few exceptions

3- U get the answer.

Or Let me tell u something else

it is historical that women has been considered as weaker. and now ur claiming the opposite

can u give me REAL fact to prove the opposite

please do not refer to those theoritical articles or studies on sample. give me facts, names,...

good luck it is a hard task I'm giving u " mission Impossible 3"

We can respect that you have such a belief,kaiesj, but what hard, clinical evidence do you have to support such a bizarre claim that women lack the capacity for rational thought?

Are there articles in behavioural science journals you can point us to, or medical evidence of this? Anything, other than your belief that this is the case?

usually women are weaker than a man in taking decisions and driven sometimes by feelings.

Really???? Oh well you haven't met me!

Oh and tell me while you are at it - honour killings etc the reason for them are driven by rational logic or feelings?

jeez must be funny living in a cave...NOT....

i believe women are equal and i say it.

you seem to think they are not but have created some long song and dance so you can claim you do.

i am trying to have a mature conversation about this, and i am telling you that i find your position hypocritical (with all due respect).

i hope you are one day able to find clarity.

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

we're far from a mature conversation where the basics are to respect each other and respect others point of view.

I thought it happens only in " where I come" but I discovered that is valid also with people from" where u come"

have a nice day and good luck in struglling for ur beliefs

you are claiming that the majority of women are affected by their feelings to the point where they can not make decisions as well as men.

where i come from, saying women are equal, but different in a way that makes them not as good as men with regards to something as fundamentally human as rational thought, well that's no different than saying women are inferior.

you clearly do not believe that women are equal.

i would have more respect for you if you were honest.

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

what do u call insulting someone in conversation?

how do u qualify that person?

simply, that person couldn't control him/her self and feelings of anger made him insult and over react.

what would that person say or do if he/she had the power to do more than insulting? what if I replied with an insult?

what if those two people were CEOs? Ministers? Army generals? ....

The comment on this is in the first part of my first post in which everybody forgot about the 2/3 of it and sticked to 1/3 and interpreting in their way.

I feel that it is becoming a war not a conversation.

without feeling offended we can always have a good conversation.

I've been insulted by freely expressing my point of view during a conversation abt rights.

aren't they, kaiesj?

I've heard of many other "TRUTHS", similar to the one you're championing here:

Arabs are aggressive and fanatical.

British people have bad teeth and are hard to warm up to.

Overweight people are smelly and lack self-discipline.

Jews are cheap and greedy.

Attractive people are superficial and self-absorbed.

Americans are stupid and egotistical.

Black people are lazy and have no initiative.

Blondes are dumb and have big ____.

Khaleejis are spoiled and have no work ethic.

I could go on....

Maybe the world would be a better place if people would just accept these basic "truths" about themselves, instead of fighting against them, huh?

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Gypsy,

I'll be glad to see that. it is a good thing for the human race.

withnail,

without getting nervous and feeling offended, read again objectively my comments.

Women struggle all arround the world with idiotic feeling that they are inferior and need to prove the opposite.

women is not inferior, please understand that I didn't say that and against it.

I'm focusing only on one point. read my comments properly, dont be guided by the feeling that every man is offending woman.

It all depends on how the woman or man is raised kaisej. Until recentely women were raised from birth to be the fairer sex, not because they were born that way but because of ideas about how they should behave. Now that women and men are being raised more equally you will see more women in positions of power, not letting their "emotions" control what they do.

are you claiming that men don't get affected by their feelings? if so, are you talking about Finnish men? because i find that men in this part of the world are quite emotional (relatively speaking) and are very much affected by their feelings.

if you are claiming that this is not so, then i would suggest that your feelings are affecting your ability to be objective.

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

Gypsy,

I've never used the word inferior and if u c the early beginning, I said " equal"

I am talking about different nature, I will repeat it clearly my point of view " women get affected by feelings in their decisions"

and let me also be very clear, when I say " women" I mean the majority and don't include the exceptions.

Hope it is clear.

FYI: I have a sister who's better than my brother in managing her life and decisions

and it is still within the excpetions

ROFL.

in his profile, kaiseji says he is open minded.

classic!

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

Are you telling me I should accept my place as inferior to men kaiesj?

Gypsy

I am repeating a TRUTH that would make women feel better if they can accept one day. but women are not ready yet to that. that's why we're debating today and we'll be here to remind u that.

sorry mate, if i touched your tabu zone.

More than women, that's the difference

Lusitano,

I would appreciate that we avoid offending religion with such.

kaijesi you know you are just repeating gender sterotypes right?

Some thoughts expressed here reveal their archaism.

God says, god said...

O_o

I wonder when was the last time that god gave a press conference to the inhabitants of the planet earth!

Ummjake

I do agree with u that men are not as sensitive and carring as women and they're better to rise children than men. only few and they are also an exception that confirms the rule.

it is also one of the reasons that Islam respects women and considers " heaven is under mother's feet" to emphasis on women importance in society.

I dont want to get in the details of the positions that u mentioned by I do agree that some positions fit women more and other fit men more than women.

if the middle east has proven anything it's that we might be better off with women in power making decisions based on feelings rather than men in power making decisions based on honour.

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

How many men can handle that situation??? Regardless of gender there's not many people with the experience to handle that.

Gipsy and Darud,

we're not here to fight or to exchange such words, we're here for an open minded conversation where we should control ourselves of such things. different opinions r accepted and to be discussed, not insults. we're mature.

the scenario by britexpat is valid here, how many women in this world can handle this situation?

Ummjake:

in this part of the world, the main religion is Islam, and if u know God said that men and women are not equal and explained that. I don't know if u r Muslim or not and for the Muslims here: " since God said that they're not equal, he's the best to know about what he created"

let's forget abt the religion for a while and let me ask u about history, hundred years back at a time where west and east same. and tell me how many women hs been leader?

why has women running behind women right?

I think because it has been created like that but because its nature, women is trying to copy and excell. it is a good thing for the society but she can't go beyond her limits set by her creator.

"...we all know that women decisions tend to be affected by feelings...".

sorry if u don't know or may don't want to accept.

about decision, history is full of stories showing women fragility and weakness, I'll just remind u adam and eve story

I think, we should all understand that everyone is different, it is the nature of our creation. we can push hard and we saw women reaching high levels but not al of them can. let's stop considering it as bad thing.

it is that's how we are and we should deal with it.

This guy appears not to know the difference between having the right (in the evil west has he implies it) and not having the right (starting in his own country)!

"...we all know that women decisions tend to be affected by feelings...".

Nope, actually, I don't "know that". YOU might think that is true, but I, and a lot of other people, would disagree.

As fubar rightly pointed out, your words are the perfect example of why women's rights in this part of the world are so messed up and nowhere near the level they are in the west. Because men here think that women can't be rational and logical and fair, that we're somehow destined by our biology to be hormonal wrecks and emotional basket cases.

If you're going to sterotype people by gender, then I guess we'll have to deny child custody to all fathers/men, because clearly they don't have it in them as a gender to be sensitive and caring. They're hard-wired to be aggressive and are generally unwilling to sacrifice for their offspring the way women will.

And while we're at it, I guess men really shouldn't be in any kinds of positions where caring for others is a priority -- so no male doctors, nurses, teachers, religious/pastoral positions, counselors, etc...

Wake up and join the twenty-first century.

Please.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

f******* dare to lecture me on your twisted outlook on life and anything to do with the 'west'

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

Brit: ever heard abt male PMS? (IMS-Irritable male syndrome) Seems like quite a few of our global leaders must have been suffering from that! :-p

you agree now that THEY INDEED ARE.

Brit you know what they say fill a glass of water and dive in it now :D

Everything's gonna be alright!!!

you're both idiots.

Good point.. picture this scenario .....

Defcon 4 Alert

Nuclear forces at the ready

Nuclear hunter killer submarine hiding under the Arctic

captain of submarine is female with finger on button, ready to launch tridents

It is "that" time of the month :(

need I say more ????

I don't deny that there are women smarter and stronger than alot of man. But we all know that women decisions tend to be affected by feelings and in such positions there should be no place for feelings.

thats all.

Kajesji,

You have just proved why so many western people think that eastern/asian/arab/whatever countries are just inherently sexist.

People ridiculed Sarah Palin for being a hick and having no knowledge of the wider world. She, as an individual, was stupid, and Americans (and the world) on the whole did not like her.

But at NO POINT did anyone simply say 'Sarah, you're a woman, and a women are generally too weak to hold positions of power, so get back in your box'.

Such a view only exists amongst the elderly and the stupid in western countries. Unfortunately, it still prevails elsewhere.

Actually kajesji it's because of this sterotype that women are weaker than men and not as good at making decisions that there have been so few women in high profile positions.

Good morning All,

I'll be going thru some points.

First we are all victims of media and propaganda, as every gvt tries to show only what he wants and what needs to be shown. for the last ten years I've been watching news in different channels ( arabic, english and french) and I noticed that the story differs from one to another because it is just a point of view and sometimes I still can't get the truth. So it is not blaming, but I understand why western don't understand sometimes what is happening and why. they only know what their govts want them to know. it applies to anybody who sees the fact only from one point of view.

So here I invite everybody to do some efforts to go deeper instead of blaming others.

Second, choosing its regime is part of human rights: pakistan is for pakistanis only, US is for americans etc, and nobody can come and blame them why their behaving in that way in their countries. if they don't claim freedom it is up to them, if they can't, they dont deserve it, if they fight back for it they would get it. I guess every country with high democracy and human rights level has sacrified and paid alot to get what they have now. so it is not US or UK business to come to rescue them. they would not be able to manage it later like what happened in Iraq. lets also remember is that countries like US, UK, and all others are looking for their own benefits( oil, resources, etc....) NOT human rights. in the name of human rights, thousands died in Iraq under torture and human rights abuse.

third, sorry ladies for that do not take it badly , but we all know that the women who had high political positions are some exceptions, usually women are weaker than a man in taking decisions and driven sometimes by feelings. so it is also a reason that few women in east and west have reached such levels.

I do beleive in man and women are equal but very few of them are suitable for such positions.

Finally lets, in the name of human rights, respect other freedom to speak without offends, respect his religion, his culture that drive him. in a word lets stop blaming and start understanding by looking to things with others eyes.

who are you telling to BE A MAN a female lol

because people don't vote MALE or FEMALE, they vote: experience, knowledge and whoever did a better campaign... also the party...

don't think we only vote for the gender of the politician.

Stop crying.. Be a man .. or a brave woman or whatever..

be happy with your lot and get on with things...

LOL fubar, yup it's gotta be easy being an Arab Muslim man arguing women's rights. :P Obviously he experiences the differences ALL the time.

I'm starting to feel sorry for myself!!!!! ;)

Don't make me cry! :'(

even i'm starting to feel sorry for you...

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

I doubt it Withnail. He's probably feeling sorry for us because we are victims of propaganda, and we just don't see the light.

Or perhaps he's over at the divorce thread ( http://www.qatarliving.com/node/487021 ) where women are sharing their horror stories about how poorly they are treated in the legal system here.

Perhaps he's busy correcting them, pointing out that just because in the west they would have received considerable financial and legal support, women in the west still aren't free, or equal, or whatever.

of having his a$$ handed to him by a bunch of poor ignorant repressed western women. he probably feels hurt that all of you are taking the pain & anger you feel at having no rights and unleashing it on him.

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

Great point! Where's CBD?

Out of the 10 powerful women I know the surname is either Al-Thani or Al Fardan.

I love this thread, coming as it does so soon after the departure of the only 2 female ministers in this country.

It's amazing how different people's perspectives can be. Some might think that this country is inherently sexist, yet others think not.

It's got me wondering, who would the top 10 most powerful women be in this country. Can anyone even name 10? What about a list of 10 whose surname isn't Al Thani??

Sorry Cynbob! I thought with the bob you were a guy. Ok, so there's three of us arguing with men about our rights. :P

So a constitution that enshrines the rights of women is not relevant to this thread?

Huh.

Maybe you should re-write your original post with a list of rules about what we are allowed to refer to, and what topics must stay off limits.

In any case, the most powerful women aren't just political figures, they include Supreme Court Justices, business figures, media figures, and top level bureaucrats .

Just because a woman hasn't been President doesn't mean that women can't be powerful.

It's also worth noting that during the time that Thatcher was PM, there were almost no women in her cabinet. However now during Brown's tenure as PM, there are at least a handful.

I would argue that 'women' are more powerful when they make up a number of top level positions, even if the PM is male, compared to having an individual woman as PM surrounded entirely by men.

(I put women in inverted commas not to be patronising, but to denote a difference between individually powerful women, and women as a general gender group. I hope that's not offensive to the 2 females posting on this thread.)

I'm a woman and I have been in the mix. ;)

Oryx, have you noticed we are the only two women on this topic?

You are talking about one or two women in a country of millions of women that have had the choice and opportunity to become leaders. And I was actually referring to your comment about Hollywood

As for your references to Palin, she is what she is, a conservative governor for Alaska. She wouldn't be my personal choice for governor, but I would vote Democrat. The point is, she had the opportunity become a governor, even though her husband/parents weren't poltical, and she was a Vice Presidential candidate. She did it all on her own. I might not agree with her politics, but kudos to her.

i would guess that you have never spent any time in the west, so why would i bother with someone who claims that millions of people he has never met are ignorant?

i have never met you so i can not say one way or another if you are smart or stupid. but your original post is ridiculous, and this IMHO has been proven by the people who i have thanked in my original post.

i think you should heed your own advice and reread what they have posted. i would ask you to try harder since you are clearly not addressing their comments but something tells me you have been trying quite hard already this morning.

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

That's it, "Cynbob, you're biased."

When you cannot defend your original posts (and this is not the first crazy one you've posted) you start bringing up everything under the sun except what you are originally arguing...that is so lame.

Once again, you prove that you have no clue what you're talking about.

fubar..no confusion of Women's rights and opportunity though i would love to!

Do not reference US consititution for if we stick to it, no argument would be there. in other words, what constitution says is something and what gets to happen is entirely differnt issue.

Yep weapons are used by people to kill others.....

this is much more complicated than the East vs West

stop polarising the two regions with your hatred..

I honestly believe that if i had been born in a country such as yemen or afghanistan I wouldnt have the education and job i have now...there arent the same opportunities

with due respect, ma'm, you want to say the female leaders of east came to power since they didn't have any choice? pardon?

You argue about facts but use terms like Evil....

tomsware..i love ur last post...really accurate..but no one wants to admit! few only!

i will remember palin too!

Clinton's Husband was US president before, Surname is as effective here!

I was stooping to your level tomsware, to make things easier for you to understand. You're right though, I should know better than to engage in d!ck waving competitions.

i remember you writing something about Croatia in one post. I'll be going there next month on a business trip. any tips?

...sorry for Hijacking

Just to clear up an error mentioned earlier:

"Queen Elizabith does not get elected..she is known to be the queen since birth..mch like what is happening in middle.."

Actually, when she was born, she was never realistically expected to ascend to the throne. It was only as a result of the abdication of her uncle that she became heiress presumptive. Had her uncle stayed on the throne, she would never have been Queen.

As regards the rest of the thread, the logic seems to be, I guess, that since a woman has never been elected president of the US, for instance, then women don't have equal rights.

I'll split a hair and say that you are confusing rights and opportunity. Women have the constitutional right to be President, but no woman has yet been given the opportunity. As Gypsy pointed out, politics is still largely dominated by men and fewer women have the connections to become President. I doubt Hilary would have even been elected Senator had she not been married to Bill.

I wonder if we'll ever see the day when a Gulf country has a female Emir, or female heir(ess) apparent.

Oryc..absolutely..alot of eastern women go to west and other parts of the globe for tourism education work and otherwise freely.

Afghanistan has weapons which may have come from pakistand and Iran. Granted! this is not our issue. However, US armed Israel and India with NUCLEAR weapons! you still compare!!!

Tomsware, the difference is at least those women are there by choice, not because they have no choice.

withnail..

if you don't think my arguements are well reasoned, i would strongly advise you to save the time, there are other forums around.

I will have to retype what i said so reread and probably you will accumlated enough experrience and ability to absorb so much info at once. I do admit many info have been given so try harder and I am waiting.

..you ruined your first lines of by your last line.... otherwise, it sounded rational...

why dont you realize, the western people that eastern people are not against westereners? ...

politicians of west and east are not better to each other... but, what are they doing? they are making us, the ordinary people, you and me, even fighting each other, even in qatar living !

its ironic and shame for us....

@ gypsy, with all due respect, people will remember 'sara palin' long long time .... lol

I am talking about something I know about....Afghanistan

with weapons coming in from Pakistan and Iran

I know where I live thanks

but would I have had the same educational opportunities to allow me to travel/live where I want if I was born in a country in the East?

tomsware - It's good that you can admit that your first statement that the UK "even can't dream" of having a female leader was wrong. It's often good to research these things before posting a comment.

And please, this isn't a "mine's bigger than yours" contest. It's a discussion. And anyways, mine is definitely bigger than yours.

cycnbob..

i don't hate US, i hate Evil. Unfortunately, most of US leaders have been Evil so far. I am basing things on facts!

in East, there are many women who ran for elections and made it not just applying!

you are biased cynbob.

my comment about charity work was addressed to others, so please mind your own business.

you've got quite a set on ya fella - you claim that millions in the west are ignorant if they believe that women's rights issues are more advanced in the west than the east, and cite a few cases of nepotism as the basis for this claim. with all due respect, i have yet to see one intelligent well reasoned argument from you in this thread, so who are you to lecture others about proper debating etiquette?

and, once again, please refer to the threads above about controlling public forums.

calma calma el duce...

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

Your ideas are as distorted as the pic on your avatar.

You continually try to pick apart the democracy process of the USA. It cannot be done.

You can try to disguise your hatred and jealousy of the West by starting a thread on women's rights, yet that does not hold water.

Over 30 women have run for the presidency position in the US. Starting with Victoria Woodhull in 1872. No, they did not win, but the democratic process allowed these women to run for this position.

You need to quit being such a spoiled sport---it's annoying.

oryx..

a through d are excercised in east where economically possible...

your judging whole east based on Afghanistan? you don't need to prove Iran's supply to Taliban by the way!

same goes to you coming over to East! refer to ur statment:

"And sad but true but when a lot of people leave their own country they do a lot better in another one because they take all the opportunities available to them and do very well.... "

And there are many women who are governors in the US, not to mention that two women hold two of the highest positions of power in the country....How many women are involved in politics is general in the East?

.. i think, you should go to hollywood.... right?... they know how to 'respect' women, rather than the east...

:)

(no offense!)

britain has a history of great female leaders

Bodeccia

and of course Elizabeth 1 who was an amazing leader with great vision for England

... know what? 11 years? only?... in Bangaldesh, they are having for 17 years and the head of oposition is also female....

in last 38 years in bangladesh, you should know, 17 years had been ruled by female leaders...

india? indira had been prime minister in such a time when uk/usa even haven't heard the name of margaret, the iron lady...

pakistan?... i guess you at should know her name...

philipinies? search google...

@ gypsy, seems you are quite 'matured', please suggest us some pornos since you seem to be quite familiar with the 'thing'.... funny ... huh...

withnail..

you can see whatever you wish to..i would recommend putting argument here not thanking people for charity works which is a joke and does not help the thread nor does it show your intellictual ability.

Iran has been supplying weapons to the Taliban

Women's rights are going down hill in Afghanistan

http://www.rawa.org/index.php

Pure and simple where would I like to be born a female?

in a country

a) that legally regards me as equal

b) believes in my health care

c) believes in my education

d) the birth of a girl is seen as a blessing

Crappy places to be a woman, Albania, Afghanistan....both societies that use traditional tribal codes as laws.

And sad but true but when a lot of people leave their own country they do a lot better in another one because they take all the opportunities available to them and do very well....

please refer to the threads above about controlling public forums.

you're a little dictator at heart, aren't you?

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

Withnail,

either put your argument or save it..no need to have your approach above..

we all could make jokes about one another!

i do charity too even if it goes no where.

tomsware - nice entrance into the discussion, but you're aware the UK had a female leader for 11 years? Her name's in the title of this thread.

Tomsware, thank you for the enlightening bit of Horseshit. Why don't you go back to watching your pornos now and leave us big kids to chat.

So the effect of Israel moving into the region was to cause the Arab/Persian countries to attack each other? :S Makes A LOT of sense. :P

... i heard (donno whether it true or not) it was actually the 'men' who initiated 'feminism' so that they can sleep with others' wives.... (no offense).... but, jokes aparts, it has a deeper meaning...

i would say that CBD's comments make him out to be the biggest propaganda victim in this thread.

my hat goes off to you, and gypsy, and brit, and paul, and winn. it's nice seeing so many engage in charity work, even if it goes nowhere.

___________________________________________

"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

benazir Bhutto probably did LESS for women's rights than many of the generals. She was a feudal Lord (lady) and exercised her power under the guise of democracy.

More than 30 women have run for the presidency of the United States:

Victoria Woodhull was the first to run in 1872

More recently: Elizabeth Dole in 2000

then lastly, Hilary Clinton

i second CBD... coz UK and US dont' have female leaders but shouting to east for having female leaders... for other's info, India, pakistan and bangladesh have been having female leaders since long when UK/USA even can't dream of it...

Mr Paul,

Iran efforts come down the chain of results cause by implanting Israel. So you are looking at the effect not the cause. Iran is responding to instability conditions cause in the first place by west. Your look comes from a narrow minded point of view which needs widening.

arecel..i agree with your measure.

cronies, and last time i checked, iran is an 'eastern 'muslim country.So they are allowed to supply weapons to muslims to allow them to kill fellow muslims ?

I guess thats ok in your world isnt it ?

Im following tallgs' lead, Im done with this anti 'west' thread

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

including my own country, women leaders from countries of the East come from political family dynasties. in fact, in AsiaPacific, only the New Zealand leader is elected based on her own merits. so i dont think having women leaders is a good gauge for women's right in these countries.

on the other hand, my country is credited for having many women top executives in business. i think for me this is a gauge for women's rights.

kadaut...

CBD: How did she get to the seat of power? Also, dont you think basing a whole argument on one single incident is a wee bit absurd?

Citing a Ms.Bhutto and saying that Pakistan has better women's rights , IMHO is about as absurd as pointing at the Mahatma and saying India is a completely non-violent country. Or like citing Bin laden and saying all Saudis are terrorists.

Abt Taliban, why shouldnt they be spoken abt? Do you think their uprise is not gonna have any impact on women's rights?

Oh and am still waiting to be enlightened about the current female hopefuls in Islamabad politics.

Tallg..

i agree with you there are benefits. Granted!

I would also attribute this to western powers mainly through UN!

however, let us calculate the net result. IRAQ, Palestine, Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan all have been dorrupt based on unjustified intervention which is also totally biased.

I think this thread has now been twisted to it's desired direction, which is far from the original subject. So I'm out of here.

They were also supplying Iran with the weapons through a third party. Still doesn't mean they started the war.

cbd - you realise your comments make you out to be as much as a propaganda victim as the rest of us!

I'm a propaganda victim becuase I don't agree with you???

Gypsy..

Thanks for proving yourself as a victim of propaganda..

Western intervention has been the cause of both wars..would you bother to read the other side of the story ever?

US & UK has been supplying Iraq with weapons!

cmd - come off it. Surely you can see that many, many things in many, many countries all over the world have improved as a result of attention being drawn to them by other countries. Do you think Qatar would have made the steps it has so far with regard to human rights if attention hadn't been drawn to it by various reports? No, because there'd have been no incentive to.

Those same Iraqi's who invaded Kuwait and killed thousands in Iran during their war? There's no such thing as an innocent country CBD....well except maybe Figi....

Gypsy..

i am enjoying the arguements of a perfect propaganda victim.

You have a select group of woman who happen to be the daughters of previous great leaders who are making it in on their family names.

tallg,

tell me who is benefitting??

peopel still dieing more than ever as a result of unjustified intervention of westerners.

Israel/Palestine conflict has been a killing machine on daily basis as a result of intervention.

Iraqis dieing as a result of intervention.

Had US/US not accused Iraq and invaded it, US/British and other soldiers would have been enjoying weekens with thier families. Iraqis too would have been alive and kicking.

I'm enjoying the irony of a bunch of men discussing women's rights. :P

It should be noted that the Speaker of the House for Congress is a woman, and Hillary Clinton is Secretary of State. So.....

Gypsy..

i could use your argument against you by saying that women in east are less involved in politics so it is natural not to see women in power though we have.

if we have an exception popping up in east and the rule dieing out in West what chances are you then considering!

If all governments stopped accusing each other of things then the bad things would never come to light and there'd be no incentive to improve things.

Would you rather everyone just kept quite and let all the bad things carry on?

Winn,

It happened in Pakistan that a female held highest position in power. It has never happened in US that a female became as powerful.

if I am basing my argument on one lady, you are basing yours in none!

don't refer to Taliban man. just look at how US devotes resources to Israel. non relevant again but here you go!

What a crock of bollox.

ALL GOVERNMENTS ARE EVIL AND CORRUPT. Even yours to a point so dont just blame the 'west' for all the trouble in the world, both past and present.

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

It should be noted that no woman has run for President until Hillary Clinton, and while I do think sexism played a part in her not being elected, I don't think it was the entire reason.

Fact of the matter is that percentage wise there's less women in politics in the West then men. So it's natural that there would be less female heads of state. However there are FAR more woman involved in politics in the West then there are in the East, and the woman involved aren't just members of the governing families.

Really, you're pointing out the exceptions not the rule.

My first note was in response to your suggestion of sticking only to UK n US.Secondly you are missing my point about the family thing. I do agree that it has happened in west, but the question is would she have become a PM without that surname of hers? What are the chances of a man without a family backing becoming a prez or PM v/s a similiar woman getting there?How many other women leaders can you project from Pakistan?

Are you going to base ur case entirely on one woman? What about the rest? Millions of them?

and yes, honor killings and rise of taliban is defenitely gonna impact women's rights. You gotta have you head buried in concrete and not sand to deny that!

Btw, do educate me about women leaders in the current day political scenario in pakistan. Any chance of a female PM in the next coupla decades?

nice one brite..i have no comment on that but total agreement..

should not evil governments stop accusing other good/evil governments of being evil??

This sounds like Donald Rumsfield statement but it does mean something here..

tallg..

i am correcting the flow of discussion to compensate for unclear points..

if u reply with something which u see relevant and i see non relevant...u could still post it.

"I have nothing against western people, but hate evil governments"

The simple fact is that MOST governments are evil. I do not agree with a lot of things my own government does. Governments exist to do things for the betterment of the country as a whole. the good thing is that I am free to voice my opinion against them and also try and vote them out every few years.

Yes that's right brit. She was the subject of 'Peshard's People' on BBC World yesterday. It was quite interesting.

cbd - Women's rights may well be a sub-set of human rights, but your thread is specifically about the sub-set, not about the more general issue of human rights. If you want to discuss human rights then start a thread on that.

You do yourself know favours the way you present information, change tact midway through a discussion, and dictate how people should respond. It completely undermines and discredits the otherwise sensible and informative discussion you've had elsewhere.

MR Paul..i thought it is clear by now :)

i admit that West is advanced in so many areas..

However, they should not think they are better because they are not...Western governments started WWI & WWII and used weapons which never has been used before against humans! to name a few.

this is not relevant to thread anyway so please stick to track!

just to point out in case it is misunderstood, which has been before. I have nothing against western people, but hate evil governments.

I saw a interview with her / him a few weeks ago. amazing personality.. i think she's now left the cabinet and gone provincial.

yeah..but how many male president of the US up to now??

answer is all of them, why don't we see same number or equal number of sexes taking power periodically?

I could interpret this as a lack of women's right in the US for example, which i don't think is right whether east or west. However, western governments think otherwise. Actually they know the truth, and trick thier people to get support most of whom think otherwise.

Georgina Beyer is a transsexual, and was a member of parliament in New Zealand.

to,yet again,have another go at 'western' countries who YOU think are liars and hypocrits !

So why dont you just be man enough to come out and say that you think the 'west' is all corrupt and hypocritical.

Have some balls man !

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

Winn,

i don't know what ur first note meant and i don't think it merits response anyway..at least not in this thread..

secondly, if we use this argument that ghandi was from a particular family then the same applies in the west, not only to women but even to men, take the Bush family & the kennedy family for example.

education rate in US is higher than Pakistan? for example, let us charitably say yes, how in the hell did this prevent intelligent Americans from being decieved by leaders like Bush?

let us stick to leadership as i stated. things like honor killing, giving taliban the key are not facts if you think they are. However, i could mention arming Israel with nuclears so let us not go that far!

Tallg, women's right fall under human rights. Do you believe UK & US has not violated thier constutions when it comes to human rights? George Bush's installing wire taps on people's fones?

Don't forget Tzipi Livni, the little minx ....

Angela Merkel is the chancellor of Germany...

Chile also has a woman as President, Michelle Bachelet

USA has Hillary Clinton as the Secretary of State....

to name a few..

CBD: First of all, trying to play ring master in an online forum isnt 'done'. (Thats why we hav mods ;) )

Second: How did Bhutto, Gandhi or Bandaranayike become heads of state? All of them came from families that were in power and held sway over their respective parties just by virtue of a surname. and especially so in this part of the world, where Nepotism is quite the norm in the political scene. Would Ms. Bhutto have become the PM if she was just another party member and was not Mr. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's daughter?? Would any other woman become a head of state in Pakistan in the present date where they are almost giving the keys to taliban ?

Just because a woman became a head of state of a country can we ignore things like honor killings, domestic abuse, dowry and higher illiteracy rates? I for one, wouldnt say so. Donno abt your criteria.

Ok, so which "constitutions" regarding women have the US and UK not implemented?

tallg..consider it a correction...since UK & US are the two main western governments accusing other nations'..they also are two of 5 main leaders of the UN..sorry for not stating this earlier..

Brite & tallg...queens and kings are known to be of prestigeous type...you see.. Queen Elizabith does not get elected..she is known to be the queen since birth..mch like what is happening in middle..

However, UK implements democracy which does not affect Queen...should I say Queen is a dictator? not at all..should I judge mis use of power or proper use of power to her? not at all..

Queen Elizabeth (lilabet) is an executive figure. She is the leader of the C of E and also Official Head of the armed forces.

the British cabinet has a number of women in senior positions including ;

Tessa Jowell, Jacqui Smith, Harriet Harman, Hazel Blears , Margaret Beckett and even Shriti Vadera (cabinet office)

If you're going to control what we can say you should have listed the rules in your original post.

Your thread refers to Western governments (7th paragraph) so it's perfectly reasonable for people to respond with examples of Western governments who do have women in leadership positions.

stick to UK & US please who is mostly critizing other nations!

queen elizabith may not be quoted here because she is not an executive figure!

quotes are supplement to this thread. It is meant to increase people awareness on how they could become decieved to false arguments made by UK & US leaders on how other nations' deal with women in this case.

Just to add to BritExpat list.

Ireland, Germany, Iceland just a few more countries that have had and still have female leaders.

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HE WHO DARES WINS

I'm lost.. What have the quotes to do with the initial post ?

As far as female leaders are concerned, there have been many in europe. till recently, Newzealand had a female leader. israel had Golda Maeir.

Yes, "The east" has had female leaders, but apart from bandranaika and Gandhi, they have usually made a hash of things - pakistan, bangladesh, indonesia.

CBD for your information our Head of State is Her Majesty the Queen Elizabeth for over 50 years now. I did not mention the Election did I?...lol

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HE WHO DARES WINS

I hope no one bring the election system into this forum. we are not discussing Election systems. The issue is judging women's rights based on how many women lead nations or become presidents.