US Administration on Torture photos

ROFLING!!!! Ugh! I need to go home!!!!

Hold on... Canada is No2 2 because they are Alphabetical Order :))

Woohoo! Canada is number 2 :D

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong but these are pictures that are being kept back? Not descriptions, not details, but the actual pictures?

Good stuff.. Hadn't thought of Austria being up there.

Gypsy.. IMHO , too much information is being hidden from the public domain using "national security" as an excuse. this is why i would question why the UK is shown so positively in the link from Lucitano.

:-)

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

It's really not a free speech issue, but a freedom of information issue...and most if not all countries in the world have the ability to hold on to information that the deem critical to national security for set periods of time.

If this was a free speech issue then they would have been forbidden from talking about the torture cases at all, but they aren't, they're simply barred, for national security reasons, from knowing details. It's like the police withholding the details of a murder case until after it's been solved.

These pictures will be given to the public eventually, just not now, as it's too sensitive and could cause to many problems for Americans living abroad.

I dont' see any problem with it.

Alexa,

Belive it or not, freedom is actually measured.

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_indices_of_freedom

ashwindoke,

You said "About freedom of speech and information...

Yes I agree US is a free country.. free than any other nation on this planet..."

Sorry to correct you, but just because the US is the most popular country in the world, it doesn't mean that its the one who has the most freedom or best quality of life.

In terms of Press Freedom, the US is ranked on the 36th position (see link below).

Although the US is far from being the worse in many aspects, it sure does not occupy the 1st position in many issues, such as democracy, human rights, quality of life, freedom of press, freedom of speech, etc....

Remember the US is a very young nation when compared to Europe, the birth of many philosophical and political models, now in place in the US, but much longer else where in Europe.

This is just to clarify, as many American citizens, particularly those who don't travel, wrongly assume with no doubt that the US is the freest country in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Press_Freedom_Index#Worldwide_Press_Freedom_Index_Ranking

Obama is trying to mend fences and has been advised not to pursue having the photos released.

There are so many advisors whispering in his ears and if their advice is not to release these photos, they won't be released.

He wants to lessen the anti-American sentiment and releasing the photos will not help his cause.

Those who want to see Bush stoned; beheaded; or tried for "criminal war acts" is wasting their time. Charges will never filed against him with or without these photos. I think this is just wishful thinking on some people's part.

Valid points. I would argue that there are rumours and innuendos regardng the pictures and the extent of the abuses carried out. people will continue to play on this issue. Why not come clean. Put the pictures out for all to see and start with a clean slate. Don't give the mimority any cannon fodder for the future.

CBD - You good for nothing piece of Junk... I am the Terrorist and we don Disguise and Hijack.... we do it in open... And tht to for a cause... :)

But not now... this is getting interesting... :)

Of course I agree.. when we talk here.. we discussin the govt.. not the people....

PM knows Americans are good ... and the only mistake committed was electing Bush.... lol... (It is a lol comment.. dare if you take this seriously)

And as Happy says - Obama needs to be given time and chance to bring the change he not only promises in every sentence but is equally committed for....

Tht fellow is smart.... and knows wht he is doin...

And about the photos... they ll leak...

The Media.. the internet.. nothing remains a secret this days....

One day or the other... they ll be public... even now they mus be...

We jus don know the link.... :(

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Can be accused of hypocricy. It's human nature amongst politicians. I do think US does get bad press. I don't know enough about American Politics to say if it is founded or not.

This thread is about if photos should be released. I don't think they should. Serves no purpose; all it will do is incite more hatred and that is never good.

We have had pictorial evidence from all over the world about people suffering.

Yeah it makes us think, it makes us sad. We may act for a while, but does anything change. IMHO no.

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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

I live on action and hope, cannot dismiss any, forgive me!

Oh, and I wouldn't accuse you for being a terrorist, I'm not in a position to give myself the liberty to brand others without solid proof.

Salam

HH..

Trust but verify..

We are yet to see some action tied to words!

HH..

may I ask you to review Napoleon's speech to Egyptians?

It is almost identical to what Obama said..so don't hope for more than you would get as it leads to disappointment..

History repeats itself..

I hope I turn out to be wrong...

HH..

lol..am not a terrorist as someone else is..am sure you know what i mean (starts with a)..

i don't mind hijacking btw...especially for satisfying the feelings of someone like PM who is great to have in QL..polite in discussions..

PM..I personally feel Americans are great people...but i have my views on thier politics...and regarding American people..i deal with them as I deal with my own people..because there is a great difference between ppl and government..

It's fairly wise to capitalize on the new administration, Obama is heralding a new era, we should help out, instead of spearheading hostility campaigns against the US. Leave the photos archived.

Salam

I don't think we should "country bash". The simple fact is that Politics is a dirty business and ALL countries take actions for their own benefit. It would be naive of us to believe that our own country does not play these types of games.

The thread is about the usefullness or not of releasing the photos. i personaly think that it would be beneficial in the long run.

Democracy is Worst form of Governance...

But we have nothing better than that...

- Winston Churchill

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

When there is no logic or reasoning in a debate, I tend to pull out for two reasons, first I don't need to defend myself, second, I never felt the need to force my opinion on others.

Unfortunately, you just proved something awfully bad to me, but I will find you an excuse, I know first hand how it hurts when your loved country is criticized, you're like the rest of us, a human.

I'm not a quitter, but I will never scold you personally or anyone else just as you did to me now. Remember that I'm all against publishing the photos, for the reasons I posted in my first two responses, I'm still insisting on that, the world doesn’t need another ounce of grudge.

Please get back to the topic and enjoy the discussion, Curious will kill me!

Salam

hateful. I brought up Egypt because I think YOU are guilty of the same hypocrisy you are accusing Americans of.

You did not stipulate Bush, Happy. You stipulated US -- and that means Americans. You are strong enough in English to know that.

As for your other 3 paragraphs, I don't agree with your statement that the US has taught you that democracy must be polarized and hide an ugly face. Maybe because this is the way Egypt's faux-democracy works you are projecting.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Happy HAppy - You from the Land of Pyramids ????

Oh Boy you can very well be Boss of my Boss...

He is ....no the whole company is Egyptian...

from now on... HH... Handle with Care... :)

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

I looked up the word "Hate" in my dictionary, since they taught us languages in school, but I've never found this entry, or failed to see or feel it ever, elhamdul'Allah.

I don’t need to disguise either..:)

Salam

As for Egypt, please tell who hasn't been blatantly offending and tarnishing my country on QL? And tell where in my posts have I even mentioned Egypt was the best, or nominated it as the most powerful or sincere? or even have I said "I'm proud to be Egyptian", although I am.

Check all my posts, in Ar. and Eng one by one and tell me where have I ever expressed hatred against any single nationality?

Salam

Hmm.. Finally a thread tht is not discussing women... nice change :)

CBD - But politics and ethics have never gone hand in hand.. specially world politics...

US can be either blamed or appreciated for very many things they have done ...

And so is true for any country existing on this earth...

About freedom of speech and information...

Yes I agree US is a free country.. free than any other nation on this planet...

In no other country you can call your President a Monkey in Public and get away with it with jus a laugh from few people....

About curbing this one...

hmm.... Extreme ends of anything is bad....

Too much of freedom is as bad as too tight restrictions...

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

This is my honest opinion about the Bush administration’s foreign policy in my region, which doesn’t apply in any way, shape or form to the current administration. I was the first to congratulate my fellow Americans when Obama took office.

Far it is from my morals and beliefs to accuse Americans (or any soul), it's about Bush's policy, whom I've said somewhere on QL, earlier, should be tried in the Hague for the atrocities he committed in the world.

I'm awfully sorry you were offended, and feel bad about it, but I failed to find better language to express myself, and in this context I would need your opinion on the three following paragraphs of my previous post, where I have provided full proof that it's not the fault of the US, and never will be. Why didn’t you comment on these too?

Salam

HH..

when i say a defininf moment, i mean it is a measure of how likely US government to lie again and forge facts to invade another nation.

if fotos are published, it is a healthy sign that pressure group are effective. If fotos are hidden despite court order and explicit plan to disclose them, then I am concerned.

This, in my opinion, will be a defining moment.

I agree that bending will let others jump on you. But it is not a justification to saok the blood of someone just because you can!

"I already know the US masters hypocrisy, double standards and the best at channeling freedom of speech, twisting facts and silencing the truth lewdly."

I would certainly say the same thing about Egypt -- moreso than any Arab country. And yet, out of respect for Egyptians here I would not have said it, except for the hypocrisy I see in you making that statement.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

I already know the US masters hypocrisy, double standards and the best at channeling freedom of speech, twisting facts and silencing the truth lewdly.

Yet, I owe the US for teaching a pattern of "democracy" no country should adopt, because it's polarized and hides the ugliest face of monopolization.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories and victimization, either. If we're too clever to have figured out we're conspired against, why not use this same intelligence to gain power and stand up?

I'm not being reproachful, but if others willingly chose to bend, they'll surely get kicked in the back. Period.

Salam

I think you don't give enough credit to people. Yes a minority will kick up a fuss, but they are doing it anyway.

I think the photos should be published in order to stem any conspiracy theories and agree that they should not be destroyed.

The defining moment would be when all of the perpetrators are named, brought to justice and sentenced, not when the photos are published. I believe these photos will stir demonstrations, arsons, individual attacks and plots against anyone who looks like they spoke English.

On the other hand, they shouldn't be destroyed, proof should be kept intact, maybe after justice was served, those photos would come out to see the light, maybe.

Salam

I do agree it did at that time. It did not however, stop more wars and suffering.

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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

Especially this torture fotos thing..

they declared releasing them and it is court ordered release!

what more do is required to make this release happen!

This issue will be a defining moment in world's history because it can tell whether more baseless wars can be justified by publishing and/or hiding what fits the US government policy!

Yes it did. it helped raise public awareness regarding the war and the public then voiced this to its representatives in government.

You are welcome :-)

Brit-it may have done. It did not stop more war or suffering though did it?

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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

PCG..

Thanks for trying then :)

There are apt concerns about security and damage and morale. however, pictures say more than words ever can.

Just as the video of the idiotic Sheikh from Dubai has alerted the public to his actions, similarly the pictures will portray a certain message.

I recall volumes and volumes being written about the Vietnam war, yet one picture of a young girl after a napalm strike energised the whole nation.

I just did answer your question. I told you I cannot think of ONE reason why it would be a good idea to publish them. You asked me to use my imagination and I did try but still I could not.

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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

PCG..

if you don't want to answer my q, then you have the right to remain silent.

I clearly asked you if and let us assume it serves a purpose, would you still say no to publishing torture fotos?

Yes or no please and you may say why.

Publishing pictures will not undo the harm that has been done; it won't bring about the arrest of Bush. Power will always find a way to abuse.

They know who the soldiers are and they know what happened to those people. Why publish the photos? All it will do is incite more hatred.

By publishing the pictures I think legally there may be problems. i.e. a soldier who may have been bullied (only my scenario) into watching/taking part may be treated the same as one of the soldiers who instigated the torture.

I have tried to think of one good purpose and I am sorry I can't. Can you give me one?

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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

PCG..

As I said earlier, you think it does serve a good purpose. I said it serves a good purpose by increasing chances of having Bush and others brought to justice which will in turn introduce strict measures so that no power abuse happens again or its likelihood reduces further.

I also said that you and I agree in publishing them if it serves a good purpose. However, because you think no purpose is served you are against publishing- which is fine.

However, my question is, if (your imagination here please) it serves a good purpose, would you still be against publishing the fotos? Please let me know.

What good purpose do you think it would serve as I don't have one.

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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

PCG..

execuse my ignorance but i would appreciate your clarification on this.

If publishing the torture fotos serves a good purpose, which I think it does, would you still be against publishing them?

We don't agree at all publishing if it serves a purpose.

I have said all along that in my opinion it would serve no purpose.

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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

Tallg..

I am sure we agree more than we disagree when it comes to what press is actually doing or its effect on society given last 10 years say.

the agreement between you and I is about how much damage/prosperity to scoieties/world where press/media could have made a difference. Iraq war is an example. How much money/people/countries suffered!

US media should have done a better job! War was preventable.

PCG/HH..

I believe US looks bad already and they were the ones who painted this image.

I think we agree on publishing them if it serves a purpose. you think it does not, i think it does. not a crucial difference of opinion to me.

cbd - We'll have to agree to disagree on the issue of whether the freedom of speech/information being implemented here is the more or less the same as the UK/US.

Don't publish the photos, provided that every single perpetrator or associate is going to be publicly tried on national TV, with minute-by minute hearing proceedings aired. Publishing the photos will only congest the world against the US all the more. Needless to say matters are already at their worst.

Salam

I understand why you are saying that. I see it in a different way. I don't think they will serve any purpose other than incite more hatred towards the US.

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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

Tallg..

clear now. Please also note, as i said sometime ago, conditions for a truly free press in UK/US cannot be compared to those in ME.

However, in practise and what you see implemented is more or less the same. Iraq war could have been prevented had there been true free press/expression/speech.

Corporate media applied tight control to depict certain images and they were very successful.

PCG..

You misunderstood me. I don't want to see fotos to satisfy my lust. It is not an entertaining thing to see.

If publishing them serves no useful purpose in terms of punishing the guilty and avoiding this happen in the future then I agree in not publishing them.

However, I believe publishing them does serve a useful purpose for mankind and better future.

cbd - the difference between the level of freedom of speech/information in Qatar and in the US/UK is vast. When I argue for freedom of speech/information in Qatar I'm not asking for the same levels as I'm used to in the UK, I'd just like to see more than there already is. But even in the UK/US I realise there are limitations to this freedom, which I agree there should be.

Please note that I haven't stated whether I believe the photos should be released or not. I was merely commenting on what freedom of speech/information means.

Please don't do my thinking for me :-)

You may want to see pictures of people being tortured but the vast majority of us don't. It is not because I don't believe it did not happen; it serves no purpose at all. What they did to those people was described in some of the links you posted.

I don't want to see anybody being raped or beaten up. I find it offensive; rather like some people are offended by, hmmmmmmmmm let's think, 2 people holding hands in public, a woman showing her shoulders or wearing a short skirt. Some people don't want to see that. I don't want to see graphic images of people suffering.

CBD, I am sure there are many places on google where you could satisfy your lust for this sort of thing. Take a look there.

I have said before, we know it happened. We don't need to see it.

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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

PCG...

Yes we do need to see them..we have seen bad pics anyway..

now they open it to interpretation on why they are afraid of publishing it!

You can never estimate the implications of releasing such information..and this is what they are afraid of..

do you think US soldiers have a good image which releasing such fotos would distort? you must be kidding if this is what you believe!

I am not defending Middle East..but US should stop promoting thier policies when they themselves don't believe in it...

I told you already why I think Obama did a double take on the photo issue. It would have been a security nightmare for him coming to the Middle East.

We know these pictures exist, we know what these soldiers did; do we really need to see them?

I don't want to see people being tortured at all.

If I was sat on a jury and had to see them as part of evidence; that's different. Releasing them into the public domain serves no purpose at all; in fact it would increase tension between the US and the Middle East.

I take it CBD; that there is no torture here in the Middle East or nobody causing a war?

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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

PCG..

I thought i answered this question earlier. Anyway, i believe it will increase our chances of bringing war criminals to court..

it will also form an incentive for US government to compensate the victims and put additional measures on such authorities.

i believe advantages are greater than disadvantages.

What do you think would happen if he released those photos?

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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

Tallg,

we wil not argue but i meant freedom of information, expression wether speech or otherwise.

you said: "And secondly, the 'freedom' part doesn't mean that everything and anything is free for all to see and say. "

is not this the same reason we use over here which you have been critical of?

Additionally, if releasing them have been:

1- ordered by court.

2- declared by the same administration.

what justifies not releasing them in a government intervening in any issue around the globe to spread democracy and liberity?

This is really ironic.

brit...

I agree with you and PM.

Lusitano..

what consideration to where I come from relates to criticising west? i don't see the relevance..

i don't find pleasure but i point the hypocrisy & double standard.

please don't divert discussion to unworthy details. Even if i find pleasure in this, which i don't, you should defend or discuss the facts.

PCG..

I am not blaming Obama for torture..but court ordered to issue those fotos based on some pressure from some groups (details in articles quoted)..

benefits include:

- more support to bring guilty to court and be it known that no one is above the law.

- successors need to know the lesson and that they would be brought to court once they misuse power.

i believe releasing such fotos would make it easier for some people, who are trying hard, to arrest Bush for war crimes so it is not another story but is related to this topic.

Discussed this already a couple of weeks ago on QL, so all I'll say here is that firstly this is a freedom of information issue, not freedom of speech. They are two separate things, albeit closely linked. And secondly, the 'freedom' part doesn't mean that everything and anything is free for all to see and say. There are limitations, such as preaching/spreading hate and things that put others in danger.

CBD What good now would releasing these pictures do now?

Obama did change his mind. He changed his mind just BEFORE he came to the Middle East. Can you imagine the security nightmare if these pictures had been released?

He wanted his visit to the Middle East to be a peaceful one and to make a plea for peace and to try and bulid bridges.

Obama is NOT to blame for the sins of Bush or those soldiers who tortured these men. Bush should be arrested for War Crimes (but that is another story).

I think he was right not to release them. We know it happened, we all want something done about it but showing pictures won't make the situation go away nor will it solve the problem. In some ways it could make it worse.

As for the UAE Prince. A business man leaked those images. Releasing those pictures was a grudge act. It did not have the potential to have innocent men and women killed.

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Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

CuriousButDetermined,

Considering where you come from, why do you appear to have a great pleasure in finger pointing at the USA and the West in general?

Politics is full of hypocricy all over the world. The U.S is acting to protect its self interests. I would tend to go with PM here and say its better to be up front.

I also think that the case of teh Sheikh and this are two different things and should be treated as such.

I agree but this is a different case...

They declared publishing them and then reversed!!

Not only that, but it is a court ordered release!

not only that, but they believe they have a free press!

not only that, they still accuse others!

not only that, they fear implications of releasing fotos which is the reason for having free press!

not only that, not only that, not only that....

In any administration of a government through out the world, exist secrecy act to a certain degree, which when release, shall jeopardise the people and the government or nation. This case could have similarities. I believe the state of Qatar have secrecy act as well.

and I was one of the few people who said that I feel we do need to get it all out on the table. We have a terrible history with the abuses of the Bush administration and while I don't want to see the situation create any security risk for innocent people, the fact is that the photos will get out. If we try to cover it up, we'll simply look like we are trying to bury it so we don't have to admit and make amends.

And it is not the the US' place to be involved in the Emirati internal business -- although I think that sheikh is a pig.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

I don't mind them holding the photos for security reasons as they claim , as long as they don't continue pressurizing UAE over the Sadistic-sheik. I mean how hypocritical they'll be?