Shocking attack on Faith!
I hoped that would get your attention :) and I have posted this in the correct forum.
I have added to a late night post at the end of another thread here, thinking that no one would possibly read it, I thought it should make a good forum topic. Though it may be a touch self-indulgent. Here it is:
I have tried my best (not always successfully) to steer discussions around to something more concrete, articulate and intelligent rather than bashing for the sake of bashing.
I suppose what I want to test are the notions that the Islamic holy texts(and by extension all the Abrahamic holy books) do not provide all the answers and have been added to with the advent of acquired knowledge and this has had an impact on the practice of Islam and other religions.
Now, one can argue that the texts have not changed but their interpretation and application has definitely, how shall we say, matured over time. The example on a recent thread about different geographical regions, sunlight hours and fasting being one of them, as these areas were not known of in the 7th century.
I am just testing those who have a dogmatic literalism and trying to tie them in knots but the answers I often receive are considered and open to critical and free thinking - that's a good thing in my opinion. But there are others that shout, scream and issue intolerant threats of all sorts; I say 'good', because they are falling into the trap of having no arguments and are showing themselves up as intolerant examples of what is wrong with beliefs that lose touch with reality.
I know people on QL are aware of my views but I am open to having my mind changed if compelling evidence is brought forward that I could just not refute. Yes, I ask difficult questions and then go on to evaluate and pick apart the answers received. It sorts out the thinking people from those who just blindly follow what is put in front of them - these people are dangerous because these are the ones that cannot see any other position and are more likely to try and make everyone be like them and will countenance no dissent. You get them in all religions, no one religion has a monopoly on bigots; it just so happens that as we live in a Muslim country any religious discussion is normally dominated by Islam.
So I say it, maybe for the first time here on QL, to all those who think I have it 'in' for Islam you could not be more wrong - what I will always test and challenge and in some cases ridicule, if need be, are those dogmatic, literalistic, quasi-fascist narrow minded followers of any faith; and I make no apology for that. On all the best threads a healthy discussion with respect ensues. I will challenge religion and the belief that there is a personal god but if I use ridicule it's the blind adherent I mockingly question not the well meaning belief - there is a difference. I apologise if sometimes I hurt some peoples feeling unintentionally when they get caught in the crossfire (and if they don't get my sense of humour). I am sorry and no doubt I will be sorry in the future; just bear that in mind please.
These close minded 'extremists', for want of a better word, of all faiths have always been with us and use their faith as a weapon: have they been getting more numerous of late or just more powerful? Which ever it is, or both, these are the ones I rail against, not religion per say (although I personally think it is an outmoded and wrong interpretation of the world), but those 'dangerous followers who I think are a threat to the future of mankind, both physically and mentally. We could do with less wars and killing.
If you wish to comment on this thread could you answer the substantive points and not just cherry pick one small detail.
Many thanks.
Eid Mubarak, have a good one and don't do anything I wouldn't do. :P
Peace.
As I said before, the title of the thread is 'tongue in cheek', a joke, designed to arouse posters interest and read the thread.
Not meant to be taken literally or seriously.
Peace
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Blabla: Sorry if i misunderstood your intentions, i do belive that Adey is right in most of his points, but like you also said it's all a matter of faith, and that's something private that shouldn't interfere with the way we socialize with others
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Plato said
"blabla: I do belive in God, just don't belive in written books so called Holly.
aDEY: i KNOW, THAT's why i was telling Bla Bla my beliefs, if he attacks someone just because of a philosophical question, i gave him the oportunity to discuss with someone that also belives in God and has some common opinions with you.
"
I am not attacking Adey but trying to say why others find reasons to believe while he doesn't.
As for the belief in holy books, if all administrators of the world believed strictly and acted upon scriptures, some of the reforms that Adey mentioned would never have been implemented. This is the reason that there is a seperation of state from church in the west. Even in the middle east you find seperation of state from scriptures otherwise you would not have seen alcohol, cinemas,etc here. Thinking that we are alone in this matter will not solve world problems.
Faith is deep rooted in the hearts of the millions of believers. Attacking faith will cause more harm than good.
Hence, for me, the topic 'attack on faith' is not worth defending. It may boost moderate feeling in a believer, though.
Peace
ha ha qatarama
yes, when I first landed in the middle east (the Levant not the Gulf) I wondered why everyone was so cross, angry and shouting at each other - then my ear tuned in to how Arabic is spoken and the inflections in the language, now I don't notice it hardly at all.
Tell your son the truth - people gather to be told some stories about how the earth was made by a god using some magic. They all get quite intoxicated about the stories and how some people don't believe in this type of magic but in other magic, and everyone gets all a bit excited, especially the man telling the stories as the more effort and conviction he puts into the tales the more the people will tend to be transfixed.
Tell him one day, if he wants, when he is old enough to understand he can find out for himself and decide - but until then he shouldn't worry about it.
:)
Peace
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
qatarama, tell your son they are still practicing.
Adey Im far away from the knowable background that you have,I have only one question .Why on Friday prays i need to calm down my litle son when we are passing by any mosque.If islam its a peacefull religion for what is all this shouting and screaming wich last for hours?Give me advise what should i tell my son when we face next friday the same story?Is that a pray??????????
"He also mentioned:
"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.""
HMMM, GUESS THAT'S WHY, sorry caps, non muslim have to convert to marry a muslim girl or else it's considered fornication.
Now i "understand" why a single woman gets problems if she's found in the company of a single, non muslim, man.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Yes it was a great social reform - then that died 700 years ago or so (in the 13th Century if my memory serves me right) when the Caliphate decided to stop the enquiring thought about and around Islam, the religion was set in stone and all the wonderful developments that Islam encouraged stagnated and has never recovered from.
The LACK of questioning and freedom led to the downfall of the Islamic Caliphate.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Adey said "look at all the social reforms over the last 200 years
end of slavery,
universal suffrage,
sexual equality,
anti-colonialist movement,
environmental legislation,
gay rights legislation,
anti-racist legislation"
Actually the biggest and the most successful social reforms were started 1400 years ago.
Quran 1400 years ago urged human kind to end slavery (Qur'an surah Al Balad verse 12-13)
Regarding equality, and anti racist, our beloved Prophet in his last farewell speech 1400 yeas ago mentioned:
"O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste."
He also mentioned:
"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."
About anti colonialist movement, it's also anticipated in Madinah Charter, between our beloved Prophet, Jews, and some Tribes in Madinah City.
All those above are quantum leaps considering the current conditions at that time, in the middle of dessert, where people used to kill their daughter babies, no law, war, etc
The founding fathers knew what they were doing when they separated church and state - it was for the protection of all religious liberties. Religion is not removed from public places only state or federal property - so that statement is deceiving :)
"It is ok to do away with "religious folk" but quite necessary to remove all fabric of the very religion(s) that many people choose to envelope themselves in?"
Not quite sure what you are asking me there. Sorry.
Freedom of speech to attack ideas or beliefs - otherwise we would never progress but not the freedom of speech to attack the person in a violent manner like the Phelps do - there is a big difference.
Cult or religion? Where do you draw the line? All of the major religions today started out as cults. Phelps accurately, albeit selectively, quotes scripture to back up his views.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Adey, am I wrong in assuming you are a propagator of freedom of speech and expression? It is ok to do away with "religious folk" but quite necessary to remove all fabric of the very religion(s) that many people choose to envelope themselves in? Take the U.S for example and the gradual removal of all traces of religion from public places.
P.S Fred Phelps is a madman. I would say his idea of God is heavily skewed and his actions have been denounced by Christians, repeatedly. Anyone who listens to him, I would agree has no logic/sense but has a natural inclination for hatred esp. towards gays. There is a difference between religions and cults. His is a cult.
:)
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
I was extrapolating from what you said about how I contradicted myself; as in you thought I was against self-righteousness whilst at the same time wanting to impose atheism on people or convince 'moderates'
I know you did not call me self-righteous.
:)
You know Fred Phelps and the Westborough Baptist Church?
He is convinced of his beliefs just as much as you are of yours but he inflicts his dogma on relatives at funerals in the street - now you may strongly disapprove of him but he is free to do that, I would make that illegal and have them arrested for causing a public nuisance. He can only get away with that because religion is afforded special respect and privileges no matter haw abhorrent it is.
To get on side means more than going *tsk tsk!*
Peace :)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Forgot the smiley...
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
It's not only the atheists "who talk down and come against the dogmatic ones". So what do the so called moderates need convincing of?
And who referred to you as being self-righteous? I was only quoting something you wrote from your earlier post.
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
confused? How so?
How is it being self-righteous when I say people can believe what they want but don't let it impinge on the freedoms of others?
By "come on side" I meant to talk down and be against the dogmatic ones, not give up your beliefs or become atheist(although, just in my opinion, that would lead to a safer world :) ).
Maybe I did not articulate my point well enough,
Peace
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
i see the debates got no rest even on Eid,...lol
you seem to enjoy contradicting yourself adey...
"The self-righteous are the dangerous ones and should be fought(not in the physical sense) by peoples of all religions, none, don't knows and don't cares."
and then gallop on to say "I agree it is not the 'extremists'(again for want of a better word) we have to convince but the vast majority of believers who are 'moderate' in their views to come on side."
You confirm what I believe to be true about atheists. You appear, well, confused.
No offence.
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
Consciousness raising does work over time - look at all the social reforms over the last 200 years
end of slavery,
universal suffrage,
sexual equality,
anti-colonialist movement,
environmental legislation,
gay rights legislation,
anti-racist legislation.
to name but a few which, when you think about it, would have seemed absurd 200 years ago.
I agree it is not the 'extremists'(again for want of a better word) we have to convince but the vast majority of believers who are 'moderate' in their views to come on side.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
aDEY: i KNOW, THAT's why i was telling Bla Bla my beliefs, if he attacks someone just because of a philosophical question, i gave him the oportunity to discuss with someone that also belives in God and has some common opinions with you.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
adey why bother fighting. Have you seen yourself making any headway on this thread? Just a thought as I twiddle my thumbs.
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
adey, you cannot "fight" them in your sense. They are not open to "logic". They set conditions which cannot be verified nor falsified. Therefore you and they are standing on different grounds and talking a different language.
We are kinda getting away from the point of this post, yeah it is nice to swap ideas and justifications for what one believes but this wasn't meant to be a theology discussion.
To make a shorthand comment on what and why I originally posted I would say this:
Only those who 'know' they are 'right' in their particular religious conviction wish to impose it on others or make others follow their rules whether they believe it or not. Thus to live in a secular society, where anyone is free to believe and practice what they want as long as it does not impinge on others freedoms, is preferable to societies that give undue respect, rights and privileges to any religious groups - that way everyone can live in peace - No?
The self-righteous are the dangerous ones and should be fought(not in the physical sense) by peoples of all religions, none, don't knows and don't cares.
What do people think?
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
"blablabla said shocking? what is shocking? ...
shocking? what is shocking? I think you have a misconception that those who believe in faith cann't reason the way you do? No, they have other reasons to believe. You need to believe the way they do to know why they believe so. You chose to believe there is no God, its your choice. Problem is with those who have problems with what others believe."
blabla: I do belive in God, just don't belive in written books so called Holly.
Adey: I need to read it but i'm sure i'll find it, btw, the same God that asked Moses to rescue the choosen people from Egypt is the same that created an universal flood, so why He needs intermediates?
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
:P
\"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
hmmmm....
"God helps those who help themselves"
Not if you believe in pre-destination, as in 'it is written' which nice to nice suggests she does, I'm guessing she/he is a muslim and has different views to you on the nature of god.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
There has always been a Creator and no one made Him. yayyyy, adey agrees!
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
To be honest, "Was ever thing happened as you expected??"
er..NO. but it's been a ride so far.
Well if 'He' has planned it for you then you don't have to do a thing - just sit back and let it happen, yes?
The problem with all religions is that that which we don't know, rather than say "we don't know", they invoke a magical being to explain things - the origin of things is such an example and when someone suggests "who made god"(and remember you brought up who made your parents etc) then this breaks down and rather than say "I don't know" the religious invoke magic and say there has always been a creator and no one made him.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I seriously don't know what question you asked in your first post.
Repeat it for me in a form I can understand please.
Peace
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
There you reach Adey. That is the Power who doesn't need a creator.... To understand that you need to think in another angle..
As per my belief, I had been sent to this world to Praise the Almighty and Live the life in a way which He plan and based on His intention....
You said that "\\\\\\\and then I live to experience the lfe that they gave me as this is the only one you get, simple really."
So you have a PLAN to experience the life. isn't it? Tell me how you feel now? Was everthing happended as you expected??
seems you are forcing me to agree you are genius!
Adey the question is not about winning. I have not come here to win any argument. Don't ever think others have no reason to do what they are doing. Peace lies in understanding and appreciating others.
Thanks
yeah you win - well done, congratulations. :( me dumb.
nice to nice - that way lies the question who created god, you don't want to go there. :)
You asked also what do I live for and I answered that also - so what do you live for?
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
So Adey, There are some one behind your creation...Ok who created them and what for?
Winn man the thing is it is said that the words in the Holy Bible were relayed by God himself. I have said before and I'll say it again, I do not wish to convince anyone. Sorry you know I can do better right, but I really have never felt for it on matters relating to religion, and this is not just on QL, this is in "real" life as well. I entered this discussion to take issue with adeys sig, (maybe I should have just sent him a PM but he would have thought I wanted flendsheep, hehe) Iv wanted to do so from the very first time my eyes lay on his sig :) but never really found the ideal opportunity (though came close on his sausage thread, haha-NOT). I could easily search out for hard core reasons to support my beliefs THAT would be hypocrisy because I can assure you I'd be copying and pasting someone else's opinions. All I know is that I believe and I am taking the Bible as is, with some questions yes, but leaving the rest to some deep thoughts between myself and the Big Man. :)
And about "taking this somewhere else, thanks for the suggestion, but I'd stay here..." Winn doll, I certainly wasnt implying you should bugger off man, I said "restrict the hate elsewhere" meaning leaving the tirade (sorry but I still think your post was a tad bit inflammatory, but then again I am biased on this subject) to those threads on religion that end up causing almost all involved high blood pressure.
I don't mean to sound repetitive but from one of my posts I said scripture is all I stand on, and I say that unashamedly as it is through the various interpretations from "scholars" that problems have arisen. Not everyone will concur with me as not everyone believes that Scripture is authoritative and I respect that. However, it is my truth and Im sticking to it. :) It's a pain being stubborn I can tell you that, haha
I guess you and I differed on the tone of both our posts. My apologies if I in turn offended you, that was certainly not my intention.
Thank you for the sweet remarks. You're quite sweet yourself, must be all those carrots we're munching on. teehee.
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
Then
why you asked me this question?
"Why does there have to be an 'intention' or plan?"
You are poor in analysis!
sorry didn't know you asked a question - could you repeat it as I can't fathom what it was you were asking.
what a strange question nice to nice, well because my parents pro-created, and then I live to experience the lfe that they gave me as this is the only one you get, simple really.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Quick simple question..
Why do you live Adey? For what?
"Why does there have to be an 'intention' or plan?"
Adey your question doesn't answer mine!
"Problem is with those who have problems with what others believe."
Exactly. Those (individuals or society) that impose their religios dogma on others who do not believe as they do have been around for 4000years - it's time they stopped. I am not imposing mine on you, just having a discussion.
'Shocking was to get peoples attention, there is no shocking attack here.
Why does there have to be an 'intention' or plan?
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Your bloodlust knows no bounds young man
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
shocking? what is shocking? I think you have a misconception that those who believe in faith cann't reason the way you do? No, they have other reasons to believe. You need to believe the way they do to know why they believe so. You chose to believe there is no God, its your choice. Problem is with those who have problems with what others believe.
The shocking thing however is that I was nothing my age ago and I am now a fully developed human being without any effort or intention by me. I came to this world without my intention and I will depart too without my intention! Now with your reason pls expalin me why should this happen and who intended this?
Lot 'pimped out' his two daughters to the handsome strangers(later found to be the angels of destruction) and slept with them later on when his wife was gone. It seems to be his daughters' idea and not his!!!
There is MORE than one case of incest in the bible! I am sure your example is correct too, you will havr to look it up. :)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Adey: We should remember that with all destruction made how can he ask others to kill in his name? How a bunch of mor*ns.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
aDEY: iT WASN'T Lot, the guy i refer was old and his wife was alive, Lot "only offered his daughters to the crowd" to protect the visitors he had at his place, supposably angels.
It's interesting how the holly books protect "certain" religious figures.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Agree with you Oryx, it is easy to see that the bible, old and new, is written by men with all their human frailties and concerns - what creator of humans would be so blood thirsty? Two quotes from the old and new testaments to prove the point:
"And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)
God tell the Israelites to slaughter everyone who does not have the mark(believe in) of Yahweh.
"The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked." (Psalms 58:10)
jesus's act at the end of time.
To take the bible literally is to endorse a very mallicious and sadistic document - if it's the word of god surely you cant pick and choose.
So to wrap up this bit - qouting scripture just doesn't cut it I'm afraid.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
it certainly is - can you enlighten people... she was
D A N G E R O U S!!!! it was an ironic picture but too subtle for the PM spam... had loads of friendsheep ones recently!
Thanks...
and Thanks for the compliment... be original, be amusing or just zip it...!
OMG, Oryx, I just squinted at your picture. Is that Mrs Peel (aka Diana Rigg)?! The goddess of my adolescence.
Mandi
Theological ventriloquism - I love it and have got to remember that. Hope you don't mind if I use your phrase. I'll try to cite you.
Mandi
Hello Win
Yep your post talks about behaviour not people.
Also fundamental interpretations of doctrines in my view is theological ventroliquism... is easy and its lazy because it just shows someone's inablity to reason only their memory rentention skills....
But this dogged inflexibility becomes glaringly incongrous 2000 years later.
Jesus said:
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”
Old Testament says:
"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)"
In the New Testament:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
well one was Lot - after his wife hsd been turned into a pillar of salt his 2daughters.... Hmmmmmmm.......entertained him in the bedroom department! Can't remember if any children resulted off hand.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
wINN: IT SHOWS HOW RELIGION IS USED TO JUSTIFY , sorry caps, certain actions.
There's also a reference on the bible, not really sure exactly where it is, except that belongs to the old testament, an old man that couldn't had kids from his wife prayed to God and i think it was an angel that told him to have sex with his daughter and with the maid they had, i'll try to search exactly who was the "lucky" fellow, that God offerend young "meat" because God couldn't make his old wife to get pregnant.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Labda:Wow...jus in case you did not notice, I said: "I hate IT when ...."and not "I hate PEOPLE who..." theres a differance there..n , knowing you, i'm quite sure you can understand the difference...its about a state of affairs, not about people or any one person in p'ticular...so where did I show disrespect to anyone in disagreeing?
and logic is not subjective , reason , may be...belief is. abt taking this somewhere else, thanks for the suggestion, but I'd stay here...
n I din paint anyone anything, I was jus quoting the separatist 'us n them' philosophy generally propogated by religion. n i dint even mention anythin abt u actin uppity
and no...i dont think u r uppity at all...u r very sweet...and damn! girl, u've almost gotten me smitten by that smile of urs!! ;)
Cmon gal, bringing a resource that is treated as credible refernce only by one of the parties involved in a debate is not fair...m sure u can find reasons
outside em, if u try!!
Din mean to offend You in any way and I do apologise if I did!!
Adey: Whoa!! That was entirely new to me....condoning slavery...!!
I read your long and well written thread and am confused what exactly your question is. I always love a good discussion so am asking you to give me a direct question you would like to be answered and I will try my best.
Aisha-Taweela
Adey: This is just a proof that the God of the Holly books is too imperfect to be true
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
And adey, I enjoyed talking to you too :)
Beats ironing :P
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
When His people were in bondage and enslaved by the Egyptians God said "Let my people go"...I think thats testament enough that God did/does not condone slavery. Yes slavery existed. But was it condoned? I think not.
"Just hate it when people argue quoting scriptures rather than sticking to logic n sense."
Winn logic and sense is subjective, don't you think? I think you should take a cue from this thread and restrict the "hate" elsewhere. You may not agree with those of us who choose to go by the Holy Books, but that's no reason why you cannot disagree respectfully with us, yes? It's posts like yours that end up inflaming otherwise calm discussions. No offence man.
Also please don't paint all believers with the same brush. "Also that them other guys are second grade people, u r the goody ones protected by the skydaddy". Having met me, Winn, I hope I do not pass myself off as uppity. :)
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
specifically talks about slaves and condones their use as permissible by god, and Jesus said he has not come to overturn the old laws, for they are god's laws.(to paraphrase)
I have not got the reference to hand at the moment but I I am sure I can find them given some time.
Your posts do have arguments but they are entirely from scripture - as I said, I wanted to know what you thought not what the books tell you - that,
's why I was enjoying talking to you.
My thread is not directed towards just Muslims, but as I said at the top, it is skewed that way because of the region we live in.
:)
Double Peace
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
FFS!! PPl talk abt manuals written centuries back like they had been there seen it when they were written...no one know who wrote it, who printed it, how many translations/hands it has gone thru....wouldnt trust my work with a manual that has not been updated in last 1 year, forget trusting manuals written 1000's of years back for something even more profound!! (supposedly)
Just hate it when people argue quoting scriptures rather than sticking to logic n sense.
Jus business....
If I write a religious manual doesnt it jus follow tht i will put in whtever that justifies the manual and its USP, ie,god??
Ofcourse I'll also put in a mutual exclusivity clause.." IF U R NOT HERE, U R NOWHERE"..."this is the only truth, u follow something els, u go to hell and fry urself in yesterday's sunflower oil n be left to snakes n creepycrawlies!!"...'U FOLLOW THIS U GET A LIFE LONG SUPPLY OF GOODIES"
Also that "them other guys are second grade people, u r the goody ones protected by the skydaddy"
Also " life's a big war between whts told in ur book, n whts told in their book...its us v/s them, in everything"
I hate political jokes...seen too many of 'em get elected!!
adey I did not realise your thread was directed only towards Muslims. You are atheist, yes? I thought your views applied to all religions.
My last post was not meant to be hostile. Hostility is not in my nature and I apologise if I came across as such. Dont believe me? Take a look at my cute (read annoying) avatar. (It's a good thing the small print is illegible) :)
Where in the Bible is slavery condoned by God? Reference please.
And lastly, if my post had no arguments to speak of, why then are we still responding to each others posts? Just a thought...
:))) (Just to make sure you know there's no hostility here)
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
I think we are at cross-purposes.
The unchanging and unchangeable texts IN Islam. You are a christian, so scripture refers to your belief. Maybe that was not clear in my thread header.
"You will find my arguments in my post. If you like skim over the quotes," That's what I was saying about you relying on scripture, I did read around the quotes and there was no argument of your own.
"Why should I go by the interpretations of "scholars" who are led mostly by their own personal convictions and not by the Word of God or His true intent? " - what does the bible say about slavery? men over turned the word of god about this when the church still supported it, eventually the church had to overturn the word of god and say it was evil.
""you" as religious people" I did not say that! I said "please read 'religious people' INSTEAD of 'you'" because I felt you might feel it was a PERSONAL attack, which I never intended.
I sense a hostile tone in your last post or maybe I have misinterpreted it. I re read my last post before sending and I thought it might sound rude/offensive/hostile which was not my attitude at all, I enjoyed talking to you hence I said "I am being polite when I say this" and "Reading this sounds rude, I'm not being so, I'm just trying to get to the crux of the matter."
Let's not quibble over attitude, and I know you are not trying to convince/convert me, This is the problem I started with people are defensive and shut down debate when it comes to beliefs, it would not happen to any other belief but religious ones.
"There is a big difference between religious people and believers." - my mistake for bad choice of words. Sorry
:)
Peace
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Labda:
"Why should I go by the interpretations of "scholars" who are led mostly by their own personal convictions and not by the Word of God or His true intent? This is where a number of religious wars etc have stemmed from, from men twisting various doctrines set down by God and using them for their personal gain."
Fully agree with you
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
davidpearlshaun: Ditto, i'm always using that same argument replying several posts :)
Adey: "Yes but it does not naturally follow that it is a god, a personal god, who intercedes in your life, even knows who you are, delivers benifits, punishments and an afterlife - does it?"
I agree with you but would like to state that according to Monotheism, God is perfect, and a perfect being is impartial, for him, human life is as important as all other life in the Universe.
Also would like to tell you that regardind the deaths caused by God and Satan, i fully agree with you and would like to add that if God could destroy 2 cities, create a huge flood, why would he ask to an imperfect mortal to do acts on his name? I tell you that it's a lie, just used to try to show to others that some mortals that they were
God's choosen ones when, in trueth, God hasn't any favourites.
Would like to say also that it's a nice post, we are racionals and we should be able to discuss without offending anyone.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
adey, do you realise how often you contradict yourself? First you say "...the texts have not changed but their interpretation and application has definitely, how shall we say, matured over time." and then you say "...but your whole arguments are based around believing the scripture - thats all you have." Can your position be any more unstable? You seem to make it up as you go along. I will not deny that I have nothing but scripture to stand on. Why should I go by the interpretations of "scholars" who are led mostly by their own personal convictions and not by the Word of God or His true intent? This is where a number of religious wars etc have stemmed from, from men twisting various doctrines set down by God and using them for their personal gain.
Let me be clear, scripture is all I have to stand on. I say that unashamedly. Why would I take that as being rude? If anything, you couldn't have said it better. I have no intention of trying to convince you or anyone else of my beliefs. There are those "anointed" with that gift. I have simply voiced my disagreement with your sig, and alas I am content.
And no, I will not read "you" as religious people. There is a big difference between religious people and believers.
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
"I'm neutral. I practice Islam but without fulfilling all sunnah chores.And stopped questioning all the doubts i had. I think i'm in peace now (at leaset with my family!)"
I should think you fall into the vast majority of the human race then genesis. But to the religious quasi-fascists you and I are lumped together - kufir.
So I will see you in hell then mate :) See you can't even escape religion when you die, it's an eternal celestial dictatorship!! :D
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
and I am being polite when I say this, but your whole arguments are based around believing the scripture - thats all you have.
You say "It is hard to understand this unless you understand God" and then you say "However, I know I will never have all the answers. I am prepared to simply follow Gods truth."
Where do you get god's truth from again? Or do you somehow 'know' him outside of the christian faith, texts and dogmas?
Reading this sounds rude, I'm not being so, I'm just trying to get to the crux of the matter. So please read 'religious people' instead of 'you'
Peace
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Sorry but quoting scripture never changed anyone's mind, petrified it yes, but never changed it. We can use the same quotes from those books to contradict someone else's scriptural truth.
And god told Baudelaire this, did he?
Since when did Satan cast people into hell - is it not god's judgement, his decision? Or is that what you said?
"instead of constantly blaming God for all our woes"
I don't because how can I blame something that does not exist? I blame those men who have, for many well intentioned reasons, perpetuated "the greatest lie ever told" on themselves and on small children.
This is all very hypothetical because you have to believe in the god of the desert first and then believe that these books are its spoken word and instructions.
No disrespect.
Peace
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
I quoted scripture for reference purposes adey. You will find my arguments in my post. If you like skim over the quotes, read my arguments and then respond. Or don't. Matters not to me either way, really.
No disrespect taken, none dished.
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
My belief is simple. That there is a God, that I was made in His image and that there really is a battle going on in the spiritual world. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Ephesians 6:12)
That Satan has managed to convince so many so called intellects that there isn't a God ranks as one of the greatest deceptions of all time. French poet Charles Baudelaire (1821-1867) wrote, “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn’t exist.” he is cunning and has been perpetuating this lie since time immemorial, remember Eve in the garden?
Jesus said: "The thief comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10
I have often wondered myself adey how God who is all-loving could allow His children who have succumbed to the devices of Satan, to allow His angels on judgment day to "...cast them into a furnace of fire: (where) there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:37) It is hard to understand this unless you understand God. He is not man that He should lie. Because He has said it, His will must be done. We in turn cannot purport to claim ignorance for we have heard but chosen not to receive.
This is still something I struggle to understand. However, I know I will never have all the answers. I am prepared to simply follow Gods truth. If anything you should blame humankind for being blind and choosing to follow their own self-destructive paths, instead of constantly blaming God for all our woes. God gave us the freedom to choose.
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
Someone was trying to obliterate S&G's Ronan Keating. Sorted.
Well if it was Boyzone they would have to die!!!!!!!!
Country and Western! That's it!!! S&G was holding a Country & Western festival; I take it all back they deserved nuking!!! It couldn't be the devil coz we all know he has the best 'Chunes'!!! :D
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
NOt Britney.. She's reformed and even wears knickers now.
Ah I see you prescribe to the view of the eternal celestial battle between good and evil, with mankind being some sort of collateral damage?
Who destroyed S&G and caused the deaths of it's inhabitants? If I kill my neighbour because they play their Britney Spears records full blast and all day can I put the blame on Britney, did the neighbour deserve to die or am I just being a wee bit over the top? Who is more guilty and in the wrong?
All respect received and forthcoming
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
when he explains the content of his posts and some of the responses to those posts. It's the same as you say:
"... thats my feelings. I have friend who is atheist and we argue this for hours - but I respect his beliefs - or lack thereof".
If we could all discuss religious topics whilst maintaining respect for one another's beliefs, without getting nasty and threatening or whatever, then there would have been no need for Adey's opening comments under the title of this thread.
Is it not possible, then, that the only 'higher power' is Nature itself?
We might be at the top of the food chain but we have absolutely no control over whatever Nature throws at us and seems to be the only retribution we get for our abuse of every other species- as well as our own.
Who says that there has to be any other controlling force to which we have to look for our moral guidance? I realise this is going to put noses out of joint but the reason I balk at religion is because it is- and has been for years- a means of control. (Yet another one.) I'd rather think for myself.
"This happened by chance-not likely"
"The balance of life is so sensitive I personally feel it is impossible to have happened by chance."
The universe is vast beyond comprehension and we are lucky - someone has to be given the size of the universe. We can only ponder these questions because we are here, that's why it JUST SEEMS that it can't happen by chance. All the other 'dead' planets do not get the opportunity to wonder upon the 'miracle of life'.
"Look at this planet all the animals insects everything here for a purpose."
They have evolved over time - new environments equal new adaptations, they weren't 'designed', does the purpose change?
Yes it is about faith, but only one of many (hundreds throughout time). So secular values where one can believe what one wants and people can criticize what they want is preferable to a society where 'one size fits all and you better not question it' - I know this appears not to be your view but this thread was started to challenge those who believe that and have no arguments to support their delusion except to parrot what they are told to say and think.
So far none of those have shown up, which is a shame :D, but they will come out of the woodwork in the evening - a bit like vampires really! :D
Peace
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Don't get yourself excited adey I wasn't seeking to imply that you are a devil worshiper. Simply that that your sig implies that Satan is a little angel quite misunderstood when he is in fact quite far from it and responsible for far more than you give him credit.
Pray tell, who was the primary source of the evils perpetuated in S & G and the other "calamities"? If you took some time to actually read the whole text instead of picking and choosing your "facts" you'd have a deeper appreciation of what really went on. I find your sig quite shallow for someone who professes to seek "concrete, articulate and intelligent" discussions.
All said with respect.
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
well i had my demons for a while.at some point, the only thing that made sense was being an atheist.Now I'm neutral. I practice Islam but without fulfilling all sunnah chores.And stopped questioning all the doubts i had. I think i'm in peace now (at leaset with my family!)
It's all about faith my friend. The balance of life is so sensitive I personally feel it is impossible to have happened by chance. I also can't comprehend hwo some people have no beleif in a higher power of some sort. Look all around you-the balance of nature. This happened by chance-not likely. Look at this planet all the animals insects everything here for a purpose. By chance no way. But thats my feelings. I have friend who is atheist and we argue this for hours-but I respect his beliefs-or lack thereof.
"someone had to create the gases"
"I can't imagine taking nothing and getting something. That alone takes a higher power. ALWAYS has been here and always will be"
Yes but it does not naturally follow that it is a god, a personal god, who intercedes in your life, even knows who you are, delivers benifits, punishments and an afterlife - does it?
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
God giveth God taketh. God, in my opinion and belief, created life therefore he is the only one that can take it. He can also resurrect which he will do to those he destroyed that may have had good hearts (only God can read our hearts). He always has and always will be. Imperfect humans cannot and may never understand His reasons, we can't fathom his power. I find it hard to believe that someone has ALWAYS been there and ALWAYS will be but I find it more realistic then lets say the big bang. Not that that didn't happen but someone had to create the gases needed for the big bang-I can't imagine taking nothing and getting something. That alone takes a higher power. ALWAYS has been here and always will be-Mmmmm so hard to imagine but again I am imperfect.
what do you think is implied in it? That I worship satan? Ha ha ha ha ha :D
No, as there is no such thing - how can I worship or exhalt something I believe is not there?
The sig. is from someone that counted all the deaths in the bible those counternanced by god, performed directly by god or done in his name equals 2,270,365,
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers were given.
On the same basis the number of deaths attributed to satan is 10.
Now that is a fact. Anyone can count them.
It's a long hand version of simply saying that 'a great deal of evil has been done in the name of religion'
""Don't do anything I wouldn't do"....uhmmmm which leaves our options wide open, right adey? LOL"
Yes labada06, it's a play on words - you can take it either way. lol
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
"If above facts are understood, accepted and practiced then bingo."
I understand your viewpoint but not the 'facts', I don't believe or accept them, so therefore it would strange to practice them. No?
Have to agree with fatcat - you misuse the term 'fact' - the preceptes, teachings, faith, belief, opinion or canon etc. any of these would be the word to use, but a 'fact' it is not.
Peace
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Firstly "Don't do anything I wouldn't do"....uhmmmm which leaves our options wide open, right adey? LOL
Well I wont speak for the Muslims, but I do take issue with your signature. You say Satan was responsible for 10 deaths. Hmmm, 10? Perhaps you have defended your position before but being a fairly new active user I have certainly missed it. Would you be so kind as to provide arguments for your position? I certainly would not purport to be an authority on the Bible, but I believe your signature is tainted with a shallow understanding of the Old and New Testaments. And worse is what you seek to imply through it.
------------Virgos dont like chaos, gerrit? ----------
fATCAT
The facts are that my brothers cats just quit eating purina cat food and decided to eat the cheese from the moon. They prefer the full moon with holes on it.
In archaeological perspective about Divorce woman, lots of pharaohs have succumbed to their tombs due to their actions.
Hey Adey.. I'm steering clear of picking Anyone's cherry on this one;)
rbakali, "Islam is perfect" is not a fact, it's your opinion/faith ;)
A fact is something that cannot be disputed such as: 'the moon has four phases'. Everyone knows that, it's a fact.
Nice start adey; let us understand one simple fact that Islam is perfect and complete was of life. Allah is one and only, no one created him, and he created entire universe. Mohamed peace be upon him is his last holy profit and perfect man ever on this universe and he (peace be upon him) is reason of creation of this universe and Rahmta-ul-lil-almeen. Quran is holy book which has never changed and will never, give perfect guidance how to spend life. Quran describes each and every aspect of life it is our limited mind and limited thinking process which is unable to understand.
If above facts are understood, accepted and practiced then bingo.