Scientists' statements
watch the scientist comments
: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYq0msCCpVQ
Scientist Name] Scientists Statements
Prof. Gerald G. Goeringer
"..this description antedates by many centuries the recording of .. traditional scientific literature.”
Prof. William W. Hey
"I would think it must be [from] the divine being."
Prof. T. V. N. Persaud
"..this is a divine inspiration or revelation.."
Prof. E. Marshall Johnson - 1
"I see nothing in conflict that ...divine intervention was involved."
Prof. E. Marshall Johnson - 2
"Quran describes .. major events recognized by contemporary science."
Prof. Alfred Kroner 1
"It is impossible [Muhammad] could have known about the common origin of the universe, scientists only found this out in the last few years using complicated and advanced techology"
Prof. Alfred Kroner 2
"Someone 1400 years ago could not know the heavens and the earth had the same origin.."
Prof. Keith Moore 1
"It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God or Allah."
Prof. Keith Moore 2
"The only reasonable conclusion is these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God."
Prof. Joe Simpson
"..knowledge in the Quran .. derived from God.”
Prof. Yoshihide Kozai
“I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Quran."
Prof. Tejatat Tejasen*
"I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means."
1) Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. There, he was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy for 16 years. He is well-known in his field. He is the author or editor of 22 textbooks and has published over 181 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. When he was asked about the scientific miracles in the Quran which he has researched, he stated the following:
“The way it was explained to me is that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read, didn’t know [how] to write. In fact, he was an illiterate. And we’re talking about twelve [actually about fourteen] hundred years ago. You have someone illiterate making profound pronouncements and statements and that are amazingly accurate about scientific nature. And I personally can’t see how this could be a mere chance. There are too many accuracies and, like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.”
2) Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. Formerly, he was Professor of Ob-Gyn and the Chairman of the Department of Ob-Gyn at the University of Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, USA. He was also the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Professor Simpson studied the following two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad :
{In every one of you, all components of your creation are collected together in your mother’s womb by forty days...}2
{If forty-two nights have passed over the embryo, God sends an angel to it, who shapes it and creates its hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones....}3
He studied these two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad extensively, noting that the first forty days constitute a clearly distinguishable stage of embryo-genesis. He was particularly impressed by the absolute precision and accuracy of those sayings of the Prophet Muhammad . Then, during one conference, he gave the following opinion:
“So that the two hadeeths (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad ) that have been noted provide us with a specific time table for the main embryological development before forty days. Again, the point has been made, I think, repeatedly by other speakers this morning: these hadeeths could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available [at] the time of their writing . . . . It follows, I think, that not only there is no conflict between genetics and religion but, in fact, religion can guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches, that there exist statements in the Quran shown centuries later to be valid, which support knowledge in the Quran having been derived from God.”
3) Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications. In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:
“Summary: The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science.”
Also he said: “As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Quran. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I knew today and describing things, I could not describe the things which were described. I see no evidence for the fact to refute the concept that this individual, Muhammad, had to be developing this information from some place. So I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write.”
4) Dr. William W. Hay is a well-known marine scientist. He is Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA. He was formerly the Dean of the Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, Miami, Florida, USA. After a discussion with Professor Hay about the Quran’s mention of recently discovered facts on seas, he said:
“I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Quran, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages.” And when he was asked about the source of the Quran, he replied: “Well, I would think it must be the divine being.”
5) Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Goeringer stated the following in the presentation of his research paper:
“In a relatively few aayahs (Quranic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development, such as classification, terminology, and description, existed previously. In most, if not all, instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature.”
6) Dr. Yoshihide Kozai is Professor Emeritus at Tokyo University, Hongo, Tokyo, Japan, and was the Director of the National Astronomical Observatory, Mitaka, Tokyo, Japan. He said:
“I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in [the] Quran, and for us the modern astronomers have been studying very small pieces of the universe. We’ve concentrated our efforts for understanding of [a] very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts [of] the sky without thinking [about the] whole universe. So, by reading [the] Quran and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe.”
7) Professor Tejatat Tejasen is the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University, Chiang Mai, Thailand. Previously, he was the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine at the same university. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Tejasen stood up and said:
“During the last three years, I became interested in the Quran . . . . From my study and what I have learned from this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth, which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible [as the] creator. This creator must be God. Therefore, I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger (Prophet) of Allah (God). Lastly, I must congratulate for the excellent and highly successful arrangement for this conference . . . . I have gained not only from the scientific point of view and religious point of view but also the great chance of meeting many well-known scientists and making many new friends among the participants. The most precious thing of all that I have gained by coming to this place is La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, and to have become a Muslim.”
After all these examples we have seen about the scientific miracles in the Holy Quran and all these scientists’ comments on this, let us ask ourselves these questions:
Could it be a coincidence that all this recently discovered scientific information from different fields was mentioned in the Quran, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago?
Could this Quran have been authored by Muhammad or by any other human being?
The only possible answer is that this Quran must be the literal word of God, revealed by Him.
Footnotes:
(1) Note: The occupations of all the scientists mentioned in this web site were last updated in 1997.
(2) Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2643, and Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #3208.
Note: What is between these special brackets {...} in this guide is a translation of what the Prophet Muhammad said. Also note that this symbol # used in the footnotes, indicates the number of the hadeeth. A hadeeth is a reliably transmitted report by the Prophet Muhammad’s companions of what he said, did, or approved of.
(3) Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2645.
(4) The Prophet Muhammad was illiterate. He could not read nor write, but he dictated the Quran to his Companions and commanded some of them to write it down.
For more visit www.islam-guide.com
Thanx a lot
From the verse you posted I can say it's more accurate as well
Thanx again
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http://www.quranexplorer.com/Quran/Default.aspx
I think you will like this layout. Really effective and easy to read.
Not explicitly.. Just to draw the attention to a phenomenon..
But the text that you posted translates the Arabic verse more literally than the translation I have.. Could you provide me with the link?
That's why non-Arabs say the Quran contradicts itself.. Actually it's the translations that do..
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"Further I call to witness the setting of the stars. And that is indeed a mighty adjuration if you but know."
So in other words, your original quote is not some miraculous statement referring to some divine knowledge about the distance of stars at all?
Too bad..
Some intellectuals concisely and logically explain why they believe God exists..
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I can't watch videos at work and I don't have the internet at home yet, so sadly no.
Thanx for sharing
Did you watch the vodeo that Smart posted last night?
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Probably completely off topic, but just reading up on some stuff about science in the Quran and here are some interesting links:
http://www.answer-islam.org/Science1.html
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1164545979543&pagename=Zone-English-HealthScience%2FHSELayout
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Shabir-Ally/science11.htm
To us the place does exist and the oath is to draw attention to this remarkable phenomenon.. When Allah makes an oath it isn't always based on permanent things but to draw attention to a remarkable feature in it..
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So if he was referring to everything, by saying ALL, then why would he make an oath based on the position of something as permanent. He's making contradicting statements.
Yes translations are different..
However, it's remarkable that the Quran draws the attention to the location or place of stars in relation to what ppl see..
Nothing in the world actually have a permanent position. The Quran says:
"It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. ALL swim along each in its rounded course." [Arabic text: فلك = orbit]
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If that's the case, then we don't "see" anything. Everything is reliant on light reaching us. Flowers, grass etc etc.
Therefor (O Muhammad), praise the name of thy Lord, the Tremendous. (74) Nay, I swear by the places of the stars - (75) And lo! that verily is a tremendous oath, if ye but knew - (76) That (this) is indeed a noble Qur'an
This is another translation of the relevant verses, which I looked for because I was having trouble understanding the context. It sounds like he's making an oath based on the position of the stars. As in, he is so sure of a stars permanent position that he swears his oath upon it. Again, to someone looking at stars from Earth, stars do not appear to move and appear to be in the same place day in and day out. But in actuality stars are in orbit as well, and they do actually move across the night sky because of the rotation of the Earth. Sounds like yet another innacuracy.
So what your eyes actually see is the setting or location of the stars not the stars themselves..
Here's what the Quran says:
"Further I call to witness the setting of the stars. And that is indeed a mighty adjuration if you but know."
Surah 56, Verses 75,76
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I'm not sure what you are getting at.
We are able to "see" stars long after they have died because of the amount of time it takes for light to travel to Earth.
My question is to an adult who is aware of the reality of stars.. Read Roadtester's last post..
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Depends who you're asking. A child may answer you just see stars. But to an adult with a little better critical thinking, they will answer stars, but will notice the fact that some are bigger and some are brighter than others, which can suggest a number of things. That they have different levels of light/energy production, that they vary in size, and that some are closer than others.
So a little bit of both 1 & 2.
Miraculous statement isn't only in the scientific knowledge displayed but also in the use of the right vocabulary consistently because you know normal ppl make mistakes. Hence the need for a team of specialists to scrutinize, edit and proof-read the book content before it's released to the public. Islamic references as well as advocates never attributed "authoring" the Quran to any human party other than the Prophet..
Would you please care to answer the question I posted above regarding stars? What best describes what you see when you look up in the sky at night?
1- stars
2- settings or locations of stars
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Yes, I acknowledge the difference between lamp and light. But then you have to acknowledge that the sun being a source of light as opposed to the moon being a reflection of light, is an occurrence observable to the naked eye.
Knowledge of the world did not magically begin at the appearance of the Quran. There have been people dedicated to studying the world and it's occurrences long before Islam. Sometimes people tend to forget that although people in the past did not have as advanced technology, they were no less intelligent, and no less capable of observation and study than we are.
The miracle behind this is that the Quran explains that the lamp (the sun) is a form of light, whereas the moon is mentioned as 'light' later revealed that the moon reflects the light of the sun and is not a source of light itself.
Also people used to assume that the sun traveled around the earth, the Holy Quran reveals that the moon orbits the earth , direct referance to this is Quran revealing the lunar month
God is the One Who made the sun a shining glory and the moon a light and for her ordained mansions, so that you might know the number of years and the reckoning (of the time). God created this in truth. He explains the signs in detail for people who know (10:5)
That's why I said this is not for nor against the Quran..
And note that someone who is just looking at the sky wouldn't KNOW the nature of the stars that they're actually "lamps" as it describes the sun, but when the moon is menioned it was described as "light"..I hope you realise the difference between "lamp" and "light" regarding the stars and the moon..
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The Sun is our closest star. No one mentioned that.
Anyway, I think the point Roadtester was making, is that yes when we look at the sky, we see the stars and moon. The description in the Quran seems to be described by someone who is looking at the sky from Earth, not from someone who has greater knowledge of the universe, and the placement of things within it.
So when you look up in the sky what best describes what you see?
1- stars
2- settings or locations of stars?
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Yes it obvious we are taught that at school, the star is very far away, by the time we 'see' the explosion, it already happened some time ago.
[quote:] "However, the Qur'an specifically assigns the stars to a lower or even the lowest heaven"
You say "assigns" while the translation says "adorned" and it's different.. This meaning is not for nor against the Quran.. To adorn is to decorate.. When you look up in the sky you'll see that the sky IS decorated with stars.. It's obvious to the eyes so it's not considered a miraculous statement but it's true so it's not raising doubts..
Speaking of stars, do you know if it's true that the stars are soooooo far away that by the time their image reaches us the star could've been vanished and new ones born?
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Dodgy science in the Qur'an http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/moon_locus.html
The Location of the Moon and the Stars
In the Qur'an we find the following statements about the moon and the stars:
He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other ...
And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps ... (67:3,5)
And He completed them seven heavens in two days
and inspired in each heaven its command;
and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps,
and rendered it guarded... (41:12)
We have indeed adorned the lower heaven with the beauty of the stars. (37:6)
Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other,
and made the moon a light in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp? (71:15-16)
The above is Yusuf Ali's translation. Pickthall renders Sura 71:16 as
And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?
The Qur'an seems to teach that there are seven heavens, one above the other, whether it was imagined to be like storeys in a high building (flat layers) or like shells or the layers of an onion.
As a poetic way of expression this is acceptable, even though there are, scientifically speaking, no discernable stages in the universe that would allow us to differentiate between those various heavens.
However, the Qur'an specifically assigns the stars to a lower or even the lowest heaven, while it states the relationship of the moon to the totality of the seven heavens is that it is "in them" (fehinna). This gives the impression that the moon is at least as far away as the stars if not further.
But everyone knows today that the stars are much much further away from the earth than the moon. This is not a small difference, it is an issue of several magnitudes. The average distance from the earth to the moon is 384,400 km, while Proxima Centauri, the closest star to us outside of the solar system, is already about 4.3 light years = 40,682,300,000,000 km (40 trillion kilometers) away, or expressed differently, we need to multiply the distance of the moon by more than 100 million to reach even the nearest of all the stars.
Had the Qur'an formulated "and the moon in the middle of them" then this would have been unambiguously wrong. The formulation "in them" is vague enough to still allow the possibility of the moon to be in the lowest heaven as well. The wording of the Qur'an is certainly less than scientific in this instance and suggesting wrong notions even though it is sufficiently vague to not make it a clear error. It does, however, throw substantial doubt on the claim that God made the Qur'an scientifically as a proof of its divine origin.
Don't follow like sheep but don't make judgments based on assumptions either (common sense!)..
You trust a doctor to perform a surgery on you not because you're a helpless lab rat but because you know he's qualified..
If you can't understand Arabic then trust those who are qualified.. You're criticising the translation not the Quran.. I don't trust the translation because it's man-made..
Learn Arabic and see for yurself or take the info from Arabs that are qualified..
Laterz
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Palato...First of all welcome to Islam, it is a huge step you have made that you should be congratulated for.
Allah gave us the Quran to teach & guide us often by example, as im sure you will know that humans learn best when learning by example.
There is no perfect being in Earth as we are all mortals and far from being infallible. In fact some prophets , although they didn’t make mistakes in shara3 'religon' or manners, but have indeed made humanly errors; God allowed this inorder to show their humanity & is part of Gods wisdom so they are not worshipped as Gods (as is the case of the prophet Jesus PBUH)
One I recall was when the prophet Joseph PBUH (Yousef the dream interpreter) was in jail and on the day that one of his fellow jailees time had finished (or was pardoned) and this man came to say his farewells; the prophet Joseph PBUH requested of that man to remind the Aziz or the ruler, of the prophet in hopes that he would also be freed. In stead his time was lengthened as a result. Not by the ruler but by the will of God as
In the Quran it states to remind us to ask only from God the changing or lessening of our problems & not be enslaved by the apparent will of others. This doesn’t serve to show the flaws of the prophet but it has a message to benefit by us by example.
What do you find imperfect of God reminding us of the outcome of our human transgression? Is it not logical to inform wrong doers of the results of their actions?
So humans know that they will stand accountable on the day of judgement and receive either their reward or punishment. If anything God is perfect as you will find for evertime he mentions punishment he mentions reward, you and I and all that read have a choice. God simply reminds us that whatever we choose to do in life, that there will be a resulting fate. If you want an 'all forgiven' and people be cleansed of all sins commited by mankind on one another, then that would be Christianity and their claim that jesus died for their sins. But Islam if anything is a pragmatic religion, can you imagine if someone murdered a loved one was not accountable on the day of calling?
I most certainly am relieved that they (including suicide bombers – that have not only murdered but have aided in the disfigurement of Islam) are held accountable by God and receive the...how did you say it? 'cruel' treatment God reserves for them as a direct results to their actions.
Now tell me again that you don’t want God to punish rapists, murderers etc for their actions? These aren’t 'negative feelings' from God but serves its purpose, much like law enforcement and human protection. Could you imagine living in a world with no laws or protection? The Quranic laws are of the highest order we can only learn to live by for survival, our safety , for the good of ourselves and the good of others.
Do no wrong and fear nothing, Do right and be rewarded, simple as that.
Speaking of the equal mention of punishment & reward in the afterlife, heres another miracle of the Quran that I cant get over :-
*Dunia (one name for life) mentioned in the Quran 115. *Aakhira (one name for the life after this world) mentioned in the Quran 115
*Malaika (Angels) mentioned 88 .
*Shayteen (Satan) mentioned 88
*Life 145 .... *Death 145
*Benefit 50 . *Corrupt 50
*People (nas)50 .. *Messengers (rousoul)50
*Eblees (King of Devils) 11 .
*Seek refuge from Eblees 11
*Museebah (Calamity) 75 . *Thanks 75
*Charity (Sadaqah) 73 . *Satisfaction 73
*Zakat (Taxes Muslims pay to the poor) 32 .
*Barakah (Increasing or blessingsof wealth) 32
*Muhammed 4 . *Sharee'ah (Muhammed's teachings) 4
*Man 24. *Woman 24
Those are the number of times each word and its significant other are mentioned in mathematic synchrony in the Quran
Similarly The following numbers of times the following words are mentiond In the holy Quran :
• Salah 5, Month 12, Day 365,
• Sea 32, Land 13
• Sea + land = 32 + 13 = 45
• Sea = 32/45 x 100 = 71.11111111%
• Land = 13/45 x 100 = 28.88888889%
• Sea + land = 100.00%
Modern science has only recently proven that the water covers 71.111% of the earth, while the land covers 28.889%.
Is this a coincidence? . Question is that Who taught Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) all this?
These are a few of the Miracle of Quran or Miracle of Islam.
you can find more www.quranmiracles.com
One final word regarding God mercy, you see how the mother is merciful to her child and any example of mercy in the world, this is only 1 % spread all over from what Allah he has reserved for us which is 99% of his mercy for the day of judgment. May Allah make us worthy of his blessings
I hope you will have a look at this
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QL: So, let me see if i understand, the Qur'an was written just for people with "PHD in Arabic Language or Islamic studies" right?
The others have to follow like sheeps, right?
So, Allah is an elitist right?
Sorry but i don't belive Allah to be an elitist and neither i belive that the translations made are correct, please note that i have been reading a translation given by the Lisbon Mosque in Portuguese, just like some of the panflets and books i read before I decided to (re)convert.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
[quote:] "but i still wonder wuy is God shown as an imperfect being"
I urge you to rephrase the question to: "Why do "I" see an imperfection?"
Answer: Because you're not qualified enough for your judgment to be accepted.. I would've accepted your judgment had you gotten a PhD in Arabic Language and a PhD in Islamic Studies..Why being qulaified is a must? For the same reason only a doctor can give acceptable diagnosis of the human body..
[quote:] "why are so many different interpretations of the Qur'an"
In the Quran Allah says what means that He WILL show the people His verses in the horizons and in themselves so they know He is True/Right..
Note that the verse is in the future tense because the Quran hasn't been revealed to the ppl of that time only but for all ppl in all places and in all time. Hence the different interpretations.. Every generation has its different experiences, logic and findings.
Tamtam: what's wrong?
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
hmmm interesting
wrong
Qatarita: Wanna tell me what's a perfect being? I do belive that the Qur'an is the ultimate trueth and that it encourages us to search and reason about everything instead of following it blindly, and that's one of the reasons that made me adopt Islam as my own religion, but i still wonder wuy is God shown as an imperfect being, and also why are so many different interpretations of the Qur'an, in certain parts He's shown as mercifull and fair and a few lines after He's shown as a cruel and tirant imposing when we all know that a perfect being doesn't have negative fealings.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Is it mentioned in the Bible or Torah that God pledged to preserve them?
In the Quran Allah pleadged to preserve the Quran.. Now is it a coincidence that such a verse exists and the Quran IS preserved with the exact content?
If a mathematician reads my question I hope he can tell me what the probabilities are of this happenning..
And if you say that someone has changed the Quran despite Allah's pledge then you accuse Him of being helpless.. And if you say that this verse has been added by that person so obviously he has immense power that made him preserve the Quran.. I'll have to worship that guy!!
Palato, However if you want to only find commonalities between the holy books consider, this means that the reoccuring parts must be the truth? How do you intend to do that with the bible and with which version to choose from?
Whereas the Quran of 1400 yrs has one unchanged version that will remain unchanged.
This suggests that the unchanged Holy book must surely hold the unadulterated truth. For those who read it, will find that it is not a suggestion but a fact.
The only commonality between the holy books is the same message that is carried by all the Prophets whom are sent to mankind to instruct them of one main aspect; Submission to one God.
The fact that there are many manmade altered versions of the Bible, when being further investigated will lead to proove that these changes were done by man to serve the purpose of either policits or economy, which is what each of the other respective religions are built to promote.
If you are on a mission to seek truth in mans versions this means you are setting yourself up to be lost in the will of others and not of a pure message from Allah.
However, since you brought up seeking commonalities, An interesting one that you will find is that the prophet Mohammeds' PBUH coming was foretold in Jewish and Christian Scriptures alike:
Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verse 18,
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee,
and I will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deut.18:18
Sayina Mohammad PBUH is mentioned by actual name in the old testament, Gospel of Barnabas, Gospel of John to name a few sources.
In Haggai 2:7 under the hebrew word mahmad () which means praised one (Muhammad is Arabic for praised one). It almost undoubtedly is referring to the Arabic Prophet Muhammad.
1.
John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."
2.
Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."
3.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".
"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the
Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend; a comforter.
This is no coincedence that Islam (translates to Submission to God) is the last and final message.
The only commonality is that Allahs same message that was carried with other prophets has now finally sucessfully conveyed by the Last prophet Mohammed PBUH
Holy Qur’an Sura Al-Maidah Verse 3 “ Al-Youm Akmaltu Lakum Deenakum-----“ (This day,I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion)
Since Allah deems that the Holy Quran that bears the message of religion , the same message that was sent through all the Holy Prophets has finally been 'perfected' in the last Prophet Mohammed PBUH, and is no longer lost in translation and human intervention.
If you are asking and searching, by all means Islam unlike other religions that doesnt dictate blind faith, as it incourages questions as it has the answers, the miracle is the Quran, which is backed by scientific proof
Should you choose to not accept it is off course up to you but your choices will mirror your fate in the afterlife.
QL: I would have to reject all together if i didn't reason about it, and as we all know, before the Qur'an there was the Torah and the Bible, by seeking the common parts to the 3 books, you'll know that those parts are true. Also if you reason, you'll find out that a perfect being, doesn't commit the same mistakes as any imperfect being.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Those people hate Muslims and prophit Muhammed with out knowing the reality and history.
An educated person will know the history and the real feed back.
If you accept that "some" changes have been made then you'll have to reject it altogether because you don't know which part is authentic and which part isn't.. You'll end end up with a religion of your own..
Qatarilady: The same God i love and worship gave me brains to think. Isn't it true that in chapter 2, Al-Bakara, Alah incentivates us to racionalize?
If it's so hard to understand let me put it on another way, when the time comes and i'm called to His presence i wont fear the moment and i'm sure that he'll be fair because there's nothing i can hide from him, he sees my heart
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Had you read the history of the Prophet and his sacrifices you would've know why Muslims "love" him so much.. love not worship..
He was insulted, accused, chased by the same ppl that he'd been living amongst for 40 years and who had been nicknaming him "The Honest" for what they'd seen of him, but suddenly when he started calling them to worship God instead of idols they began resisting and fighting him.
What wordly benefits did he fight for? What did he personally gain? nothing! but look around you and see how he helped transform the world.. The whole world must thank him for his sacrifices!
And in the last words that he said to the Muslims before he died he warned them against worshipping Prophets, himself included!!
[quote]: "I wasn't born on that time, so i don't know"
You weren't born and you don't know.. Then why do you have this "gut" feeling that it's been changed? Let me guess.. because it's easier to think this way.. Worshipping God requires that you commit yourself to duties and responsibilities but you say I think it's been changed then wheeeew you're free to live as you please!
Khalid...that is precisely what i believe in, and the website, i've been reading that since i discovered it.
Qatarina/Qatarilady...thanks for the inputs. I'll do some more research about it before i plunge myself into it, and later apostate if i did not like it, which is not a good idea...as i am not a person who will join into something because i need to, but i wanted to. As long as the teaching is about worshipping One God, no saints or mediators, i can live with it. I am not committing myself, but as i said, i already considered it and challenges other believers so that if i would be caught up in their shoe, should i embrace the belief, i would know what to respond.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Qatarilady: i stated that it was changed a bite after the profet's death.
Khalid: Deism is a philosophy, not a religion, you have muslim, jew, christian deists
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
you are deist and here is the deffinition of deism and deist which applies on you coelacanth
Deism is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme god created the universe, and that this and other religious truth can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without the need for faith. Deists generally reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs - such as by miracles and revelations. These views contrast with a dependence on revelations, miracles, and faith found in many Judeo-Christian,[1][2] Islamic and other theistic teachings.
Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe that is not altered either by God intervening in the affairs of human life or by suspending the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources.
source wekipedia
And for sure you will like the link below because it supports your ideas
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/
Finally
I like God.
I like Muhammed and all the prophets.
I like to respect peoples belief.
I like people who respect my belief.
I like people who use good words and use civillized debate with good manners.
The difference is 4 us we aknowledge that all the prophets are either prophets or messenger of God, all very human in every aspect, Jesus pbuh was concieved of miraculous conception of the virgin mary, thats was the miracle God bestowed him with, ppl made him into the son of God, which he is not 'lam yalid walam youlad' - He (Allah)is not born nor does he 'be born'-
He is one Almighty the creator of everything he needs only to say "kun fa yakoun" - be and it shall-
What you see in us muslims is not placing Mohammed pbuh as the center of faith, we do respect and love him which can only be explained when you read his SEERA
He the Prophet mohammed was so human that he couldnt guarantee Fatima his beloved daughter enterance into heaven, she also a great example and exhalted by muslims enter heaven on her deeds like everyone else.
Khalid...that would never happen to me, as that is one reason i became a Deist...to praise and worship only ONE GOD, be He named Allah/YHVH/Jehova/Great Architect.
Appreciate all the inputs.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
In Islam it is prohobited to link our prophet Muhammed to any good things that happen to us.
Muhammed is a messenger who delivered his message.
Any good thing should be linked to God blessing and God Mercy.
In Islam Shirk is the biggest sin and here is useful link
for the definition of Shirk
http://ask.reference.com/related/Why+Is+Shirk+the+Major+Sin+of+Islam?qsrc=2892&l=dir&o=10601
Khalid...Platao is a deist friend and a Muslim as well. I am considering already the option, but as of now, i am in the middle, trying to learn the pros and cons. I have seen some websites (which i posted the link earlier) and learned to read arabic as well, about questions of a believer and daring to apostate if his questions were left unanswered. This gave me an idea to challenge and see what i might get as a response. Qatarilady had treated me well in providing a concise answer to every challenge that i posted...i left christianity because of how they put Jesus in the center of their faith. That is what's hindering me of absorbing Islam, when i notice that the prophet was most of the time acknowledged, much like Christians.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Get your information from authentic references.. Any anti-Islam organization or indeividual can set up a site to spread faulse info..
Don't you find it odd that wherever you go in the world you find the same exact content in the Quran..in every edition old and new?.. Was the one who "secretly" changed it more intelligent and capable than Allah?.. Allah couldn't preserve his work but the one who "secretly" changed it could!!
I find that unbelievable!!
You should know the history of Islam, otherwise what you say will have zero values.
How can the judgement be true if some evidences are missing?
Apology accepted..
Why not stand by on what you say. Have faith in your self.
Qatarilady: I wasn't born on that time, so i don't know, but can you prove that it wasn't? Don't you find odd that Allah seams too imperfect on Qur'an? Do you truelly believe that a perfect being would contradict his own words?
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
And to everyone who had read my posts and felt offended, i am asking for an apology. Rest assured it will not happen again. Again, to moderators and readers/QL Members, My sincerest apologies to all of you.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Qatarilady/Qatarita...it's a lesson learned indeed. I just can't seem to edit one of my post. Looks like the mod had locked my access to it and will be using it against me. Now i'm screwed!
this is the website where i copied it:
http://www.islam-watch.org/LeavingIslam/Challenge-to-Muslims-Answer-These-Questions-or-I-Will-Apostatize.htm, question no 6, to be exact.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Good, now a word to the wise...dont do it again.
[quote]: "coelacanth said Challenge to Muslim no 3: ...
Marriage with 9 year old Aisha, Marriage with his daughter-in-law Zainab"
To this "ignorant" description of the Prophet I say what the Prophet is reported to have said about his ppl who resisted him at the outset of Islam: "O Allah forgive my ppl as they are ignorant"!..
You have too many misconceptions and I'll begin with the "marriages"..
Read this post till I post the next..
Fair enough..
I'm yet to explain why he had to fight sometime later..
"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
Now tell me, was Islam presented peacefully, if this is what's stated in the book? Anyone who wants to preserve his life and his family's will turn to this religion. Talking about peace huh?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Qatarita...i only saw your post just now. My apologies to you as well. I have edited my post to prevent it from causing more harm than good. As i mentioned, it was an excerpt from one site i used as a referrence that is blocked by the ISP.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
If you don't edit you're apology is not accepted
The description i mentioned was based on my research about the pros and cons of believing in the book. I have read a lot of questions from apostates, and those challenge i noted was an excerpt from their questions. I can't provide you the link, as it is part of those banned by the ISP. Again, my apologies.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
COLE! retract every vile dispicable insult you called the prophet and after that ponder why we love the Prophet as much we do, which is an honour that thankfully you will never experience
Qatarilady...i was out for lunch, so only now i have read your post. If you feel offended, then my sincerest apologies. i have edited the post where you feel very offended, and to prevent it from causing more harm to those who will read it.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
And edit now pls. Thank you
Qatar lady keep me posted of any changes, as ive developed an awful headache, pm me dear
precisley, i will personally see to it myself
If he doesn't apologize and edit the post then it might be better to report this to Q-Tel to block the website
See Qatar Lady, its shitheads like this that thrive on muslims accomodating him!
He started to complement you on your intellegence then WHAM he insulted the prophet, which he built up to slowly pretending to want to understand but when we was faced with people who are sure and PROUD of their religon and faith he let his true colours and intentions show.
If the mods dont deal with this quality of ingrates as per their claim then QL is not worth my time
I wrote a detailed explaintion to cole guy, but 4 some apparent reason it didnt come through in this post, which is all as well because from one of his recent posts he called the prophet Mohammed PEACE AND BLESSINGS OF ALLAH be UPON HIM a
"Why would God choose a mass murderer, rapist, blasphemer, pedophile, madman and power and sex hungry person as his prophet?"
YOU are a sorry excuse of an ignorant man, if you were an intellectual that really wanted to learn about Islam or had a valid question you would have hidden your feelings and rephriased that questions by saying people say this and that about the prophet and then would have earned our time to respond, however your spiteful vindictive statement speaks volumes of your prejiduce and you shouldnt be in Qatar like the parasite you are, I am holding myself back from insulting you because you deserve worse however I ask the moderators to address these personal attack on THE PROPHET OF ALL PEOPLE and deal with you according to the QL rules
[quote]: " i do think that some changes were made after the profets death"
I'll swallow the "patience pill" and ask you this question : Whom are you accusing of "secretly" having changed the Quran?
Qatarita..aaahh I wrote such a long post to you but gone :(
I'll give it another try.. (next time I'll save the text before posting )
Qatarilady/Coelecanth: I don't think that profet Mohammed (pbuh) was that cruel, or that he's responsable for the contradictions on Qur'an, i do think that some changes were made after the profets death, secretly, and because the ones who have done those changes weren't blessed as our dear profet, they distorced the teachings and didn't even noticed that they created contradictions that a perfect being would never have.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Qatari Lady welcome back, It appears you misunderstood me, if anything im asking you to be MORE assertive and LESS apologetic for want of others to not 'go ahead and laugh' at you , we as a Qatari nation care too much what people think of us. Its annoying.
How can the retiring tone of "I enjoy talking about it but not as "converting" efforts.. that's why I discuss religion with my family, friends etc. and they're already Muslims" be what your describing as "a preemtive or aggressive strike"? quite the contrary, besides im NOT suggesting you to strike anything, just to not feel you need to apologise for our beliefs, because its this type of 'overly accomodating nature' is what Qatari mainstream culture is becoming nowadays and why?
Take 4 example, the Adhan in the mosques (call to prayer) is lowered, because we as a Qatari nature feel obliged to soothe non muslim paranoia or their aleination about islam. Many things are deteriorating because of it.
What I was pointing out couldnt have been so subtle that you missed my point by a long shot?
BTW, by saying those awful things about the Prophet I, personally, feel offended because he's someone I love more than anyone else.. so you owe me an apology.. Honestly, I tried to ignore the bad feeling while responding to your questions but they're just too strong!
Muslims have a message to spread Islam in the most peaceful way.
A resistance came at that time from the non believers, and they did not want Islam to spread and they started fighting and killing Muslims, and because Muslims were so keen to take the instruction from the Holy Quran, the verses of killing those non believers had came at that time.
Those verses were applied at that time.
please understand the History of Islam, if you do not read then your judgement will be wrong, Islam tells us to seek for the truth.
Up to this moment I have a conclusion that your information about Islam is very limitted.
[quote]: "what would be the difference if i followed what they did and what they believed?"
It would be great to follow what they did.. only if you could!.. You haven't seen Abraham, Moses or Jesus so "technically" you don't have access to their belief or worship or lifestyle.. You can either invent values( that might well be affected by your desires) or guess what they lived by or what God's "price" for Paradise is.
I have no reference or whatsoever...it is based on my reasoning and understanding of who God is. I am a Deist, much like your prophet, Abraham, Moses, Jesus. We believe in One God, the Great Architect. There was no books written before Moses, but he already had a relationship with God. There was no book written before Abraham, but he is in good relation with God. If God had honored them even without the Qu'ran, what would be the difference if i followed what they did and what they believed? If you are saying that the suicide bombers will be judged for killing innocent victims, what is their difference with your prophet who orders the killing of infidels during his time? Does that excempt him from his crimes to humanity because he was a "messenger" of God? I can't seem to see the justification in your book, with God ordering the killing of non-believers, and calling him Merciful? I don't see the logic of God telling there is no compulsion in Religion, and later order the killing of non believers, and calling him Just?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Thanks for the compliment..
[quote]: "As you used to say: Laa Ilaha Ilallah...but Allah has no messengers.".."and he will not ask us what is our religion in the afterlife."
wheeew.. so you're half way through! :)
How ho you know He has no messengers? What's your reference?
[quote]: "He will judge us whatever we did on earth, and he will not judge us because you memorize the book."
Do you know how many books were lost in wars? What protected the Quran is that it had always been in the heads of Muslims who survived the wars.. This is the strategy of preserving it!
and about my perception of "war" I'll post it later on..
I'll see your posts when I'm back..bye
soooo sweet of you..
Khalid...i'm not saying bad thing about Qatar, but the irony of using the book as the basis of the human rights in the Geneva Convention, and the muslim countries who observe the book's teaching not promoting/observing the human rights, is kind of a bit awkward.
Qatarilady...you are such and intelligent person, and you presented your defense very well. I appreciate your effort in answering these questions. As to my belief, i believe in God/Allah/Yahweh/Jehovah. As you used to say: Laa Ilaha Ilallah...but Allah has no messengers. We are of the same status in the sight of God, and he will not ask us what is our religion in the afterlife. He will judge us whatever we did on earth, and he will not judge us because you memorize the book. If a muslim who is not righteous will be judged by God, so will be applicable to all of people.
Still, religion is politics...politics causes war. war causes pain. pain causes suffering. And i don't think God would create something to cause division and suffering to those who believe on one Deity. Honor God, not the prophet.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Ya, sorry, I didn't want to leave the question unanswered! :)
It will be also good if you can read the Hadith (our prophetMohammed sayings), many people think that reading holy Quran is enough, or reading Hadith is enough, both are very important, skipping one of them will lead to miss understanding of Islam.
lol you are late answering..not I get it
What's your point?
I'm a little late answering and I haven't bothered reading all these responses. Qatarilady I've read the Quran and quite often refer to Islamonline for clarification.
You definitely have a point here.. and you remind me of a story I heard about a westerner who converted to Islam based on knowledge of it, and when he went to saudi arabia he said : Thank God I knew Islam before knowing Muslims.. Unfortunately, Islam is getting a bad name because of the mischief of some Muslims..
But use your intellect..
So ..your turn.. Would you tell me what you believe?
Just let me know, I am pround that my country is Qatar.
Qatar is the best country in the World.
I say this because I do not like any one to say bad things about Qatar.
Did you have a chance to look at the video about Jesus.
Isn't it ironic? The teachings being used as the base of human rights in the Geneva Convention, yet the same human rights were not being followed on the country governed by it's teachings, and a member of the Geneva Convention? I don't see any sense here.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Aisha was the only "girl" that he married.. All of the others were old and some of them VERY old around 60 years of age for different reasons.. That doesn't describe a "rapist", "sex hungry" man..
[quote]: "Qatarilady...it's not about what was said, but what was done."
Well, look around you! Remeber my "macro history" outlook? The teachings of the Prophet reached Europe and are the base of human rights and Geneva Convention principles.. Deny it as you will but it's a FACT!
The Prophet married the first wife Khadija when he was 25 and she was 40.. He remained with her solely for 15 years, that is until he was 40.. I don't need to tell you how sexual activity is at the age of 25 and 40 yet he remained loyal to her..
About 9 year old Aisha.. He married her after a previous marriage so he didn't "rape" her or abuse her.. It was normal for ppl at that time especially that enemies of Islam (and they were many) never reported that she "suffered" from this marriage not physically nor psychologically.. And the fact that she lived after him for over 50 yrs (if I'm not mistaken) narrating his Hadiths and passing them over to the next generation(s) tells you the wisdom behind this marriage..
Zainab wasn't his daughter-in-law simply because he didn't have sons who lived till adulthood.. She was married to a man whom the Prophet adopted but Allah forbade adoption and when Zaid divorced Zainab Allah ordered the Prophet to marry as an act to "seal" the law that forbids adoption.. Note that by now the Prophet is an old man who doesn't marry for sex but ro practically endorse regulations.
to be continued..
1. He Married Aisha when she was 9 years old to attract children and show to treat children, and children like to play with Aisha (God bliss her), and she will teach children what our prphit Muhammed says, and she was so you young to memorize the maximum from what our prophit Muhammed says (Hadith).
2. He married his daughter in law after divorcing from Zied, and Zied was adopted, and adoption is prohobitted in Islam.
3. He married 9 wives and one reason for this is that his wives can teach the maximum of Muslim women about Islam, and things that are of women interst such as the period and other things.
About Jesus here is a 6 minute video.
Qatarilady...it's not about what was said, but what was done. Anyone can tell you to do good and forgive, but is not doing otherwise. There is a saying...action speaks louder than words...and his action shows who he really was.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Philosophy? Marriage with 9 year old Aisha, Marriage with his daughter-in-law Zainab, Marriage with Javairah, his slave after killing his father, husband and brother the same day, killing others just because they don’t believed him, killing someone if they change their religion, killing without reason, spreading Islam not with discussion, logic or spirituality but with murder and war. Is this the philosophy that you are talking about? Can you tell me a single incident of kindness ever done by your prophet. Remember, you can’t tell me about what your prophet said to his followers about how to conduct life and be kind etc. I want his own personal acts of kindness only. Any Schmuck can ask others to do good and himself do otherwise.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
[quote]: "That’s why you don’t see new religions forming in Europe."
Yes.. not forming..but how do you explain the conversion of millions to Islam?
[quote]: "Greek were more scientific and progressive, why religion didn’t appear there instead?"
Had that happened you would've attributed it to their science and genius.. But when such a "philosophy" comes out from an illiterate person you'll begin to search for the source in which case Allah..
[quote]: "Jesus was created, as the verse in your book states, that he was made just like Adam, from dust. Also in your book states that he was born of the virgin."
The likeness is in the miraculous nature of each birth.. Adam was created without parents and Jesus was created without "a" parent, a father that is..
[quote]: "Also, Why would God want his creation to not ask, questions, criticize, debate or experiment ideas that he gave us?"
In the Quran Allah says that Abraham asked Him to "show" him how he brings lives from the dead.. So Allah told him take four birds, kill them and scatter their flesh and bones on different mountains.. When Abraham did that Allah brought the birds back to life to "prove" it to Abraham.. This story is mentioned in the Quran.. Now if that doesn't encourage questioning I don't know what it does..
Why would God make religions appear only in poor, illiterate and desert areas? 1400 years ago, Greek were more scientific and progressive, why religion didn’t appear there instead? Is it because Muhammad could have only mislead the gullible, ignorant and poor people. In fact, his first followers were actually poor. Rich and literate people thought of him as crazy. Even today, if you would go to an illiterate village and proclaim yourself as a big saint, thousands will follow you. That’s how easy it is to make stupid people more stupid. That’s why you don’t see new religions forming in Europe.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Khalid...my question is simple, yet unanswered and diverted to another topic...
Jesus was created, as the verse in your book states, that he was made just like Adam, from dust. Also in your book states that he was born of the virgin. Which is which? Qu'ran contradicting it's own writing, supposedly to have come from God?
I am not asking about Jesus...i'm asking about the creation of Jesus as stated in your book, which contradicts with each other.
Also, Why would God want his creation to not ask, questions, criticize, debate or experiment ideas that he gave us? This can only happen to cover up lies. This is the reason why you can’t question clergy about things like what’s the proof that Muhammad is the prophet of God. Seems like a great deceit to make sheep out of humans. Only truth can stand the fierce scrutiny and criticism and still stand tall.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
What you described as "apologetic" in some of my statements I would describe as aggressive and preemtive as I attack the reaction before it comes out..
When the Prophet fought for Islam he wasn't targeting ppl's beliefs but he aimed at getting the message across and this is what I do..I know that guiding one person to Islam was described by the Prophet as superior to any major wordly benefit but I don't aim to convert ppl so if they don't I don't get discouraged or desperate.. I learn from the master :)
Get the message across but leave it to their will..
Jesus is a human and creation process apllies on him and the rest of the prophets.
The Quran teaches us that Mohameed is a prophet as the other prophets who passed before him.
Here is one example on what does the Quran says about Jesus:
171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
172. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).
There is more about Jesus in the holy Quran
wrong
Habib...but was it mentioned in your book that it was made by stages, or you are just assuming it? I don't see anything written that these were made by stages, otherwise it should be stated, and from different verses in your book, was showing the contradiction of how God created man. Please show me the basis of your response that these were indeed stages, instead of using your assumption/interpretation as basis...also you did not answer how Jesus was created, as the verse in your book states that he was made just like Adam, from dust, and also in your book stating that he was born of the virgin. Is this another stages again, from dust, to clay, to blood?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
"We can all agree that we are saved by our faith... ..." According to my belief this faith can end our life in a good way or a bad way, if one dies at 30 yrs old maybe this will be good for him as there could be very bad he would see if he lived more.
At the end be always good and work as you will live for ever and be ready as you will die tomorrow.
Habib - Not only that, you forgot to metion that facts about the Prophet Mohammed PBUH when concieving the first muslim nation in al Madina, a system that offered welfare not only to Muslims but to minority groups such as the jews, allowing them to worship as they want etc.
The Prophet created the worlds 1st written constitution in the history of mankind, known as 'The Covenant of Medina'. A constatution that protected all groups under a unifed roof. According to James A. Michener who wrote in his book- "Islam: The Misunderstood Religion" (New York, 1955, p. 68) mentionins:- "Muhammad thus became head of the state and the testimony even of his enemies is that he administered wisely. The wisdom he displayed in judging intricate cases became the basis for the religious law that governs Islam today."
The covenant of Medina can be found in
http://home.att.net/~a.f.aly/covenant.htm
Its facts like this that convieniently go missing on the many other threads that discuss Islam
j3375 said "if God didnt want you to think or question your faith ,he wouldnt have given you the power TO to do that"
Islam actually incourages questions, this is why we muslims find that the more we delve deeper the more questions answered,closer to Allah & subsequently more happier because of it.
It is also why huge numbers of non-mulsims revert back to Islam. As for the reasoning behind 'giving us the power to think and question' is a good point!
Herein lies the litmus test of all humanity: When you do find the answers how do you deal with it, on an individual basis? Since accountibility towards sins we commint or good deeds we earn are our own making, in life and hereafter. It is how we voluntarily seal our fate, because of the very same power he has granted us...He gives us the power to choose, to do right from wrong , to accept fact and faith or deny, all examples we all as humans will face consequences for.
Qatari Lady, on the very few points I disagree with you on i'd like to point out the following when you said
"I enjoy talking about it but not as "converting" efforts.. that's why I discuss religion with my family, friends etc. and they're already Muslims"
Avoiding initiating talks with Non Muslims in case they think were converting them is wrong.
One thing I respect about Khalid the roaaaar, is that he doesnt mind getting ridiculed by the masses, he simply comes back for more!
In fact he reads each post and tries his best to address individual posts even if theyre hateful or patronizing, and he, isnt even half as equipped as you are at that task.
There are so many people who want to have facts explained about Islam and the hazzard is we expect them to find sources themselves when there are many out there that are purposely misconstruing Islam in their efforts to demoinze it.
By Isolating or keeping your talks only with 'family and friends' is really denying so many that would benefit from having the privaledge of speaking to a more assertive you....and If one converts then Mabrouk ilajer for you!
I know that you address questions, as you have clearly and beautifully done, the only thing I want to see you loose is that tentative tone as I noticed in a previous when you explained 'rivers of wine in heaven' then said "go on laugh all you want" what matters to us is that we can indubitably state facts without the fear of what they may think.
Also the above when you reassured them that you enjoy speaking of Islam not as "converting efforts" why that retiring tone? We should be proud if one of them at least understood Islam, let alone embrase it!
Look at how the jews dont feel ashamed of their barmitsvas and the hindus of their devali, if anything their blithe demeanor afforded them the ability as a once minority group (the jews) to have their beliefs intergrated within other societies and become a staple part of the mainstream culture.
The even created anti sematic laws and we, a majority within our lands lend appologetic tones to our religon (this doesnt refer to you its my observation about Qatars youth)
The reason im saying this in the main forum is to openly delight in reaffirming our religon the way it should be.
If all understood its wonder & choose not convert then i would be just as happy to coexist in a world where others would at least respect it as our religon instructs us to respect theirs.
???
Khalid, would you agree to this statement:
...
We are saved by our faith and the knowledge that Allah (the powerful and merciful one) reveals to us through his holy book.
???
Khalid, would you agree to this statement:
...
We are saved by our faith and the knowledge that Allah (the powerful and merciful one) reveals to us through his holy book.
First, there was Allah, and nothing else. Then He created dust - the most basic matter - from nothing. More can be said about what this "dust" refers to, but it is not necessary for our purposes. Water and dust make clay. And blood is a complex substance made from clay. So creation has stages, and the Qur'an mentions various stages in various contexts as it is appropriate. Ultimately, of course, it is all created by God out of nothing, because, as we said, before creation there was God and nothing else.
At any rate, the concept mutiple levels of composition is not a difficult thing to understand. Like, the house is made of bricks, the bricks are made of clay, and the clay is made of atoms. So, the house is made bricks, clay, and atoms. Like you said, ALL OF THE ABOVE.
You forgot to mention the key element, the Ruh, which is blown into the human being. And like before: ALL OF THE ABOVE.
Regarding Adam and Eve and their children. No problem. I already told you that there was God and nothing. He created the natural laws that make incest genetically harmful, and the social laws prohibiting incest, which help us avoid its harms. He is free to apply, bend, or break those rules as He wills. He is not bound by nature because He is the Creator of Nature. In fact, Nature is nothing but the pattern of His continual creative action. So Adam and Eve are special cases - obviously.
Yes, He revealed the verse about fighting the Unbelievers. No, He did not enjoin fighting per se, but fighting the Unbelievers until they pay the tax. Indeed, every nation fights those who do not believe in the nation until they pay a tax. That is what all nations do. The people he revealed that to fought the Unbelievers until they paid the tax - which was very small, while the Believers paid their own tax (zakat) anyway, and that is how they established the first Islamic state. Now I pay taxes to two countries, and if I refused they would also fight and imprison me. But no complaint because taxes finance the law and order and public works. So, that is called civilization. You have to fight for it.
So yes, God did reveal that, and He is indeed Loving, Just, and many other things.
And who among you here can spot the contradiction in the teaching of Quran...which says the book doesn't contradict it's writing if it came from God?
What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).
So, are we created from Blood, Clay, Dust or Nothing? What does the book says? ALL OF THE ABOVE. 1st sign of contradiction and tampering in the book that was supposedly accurate and protected by God of tampering. Does God seem to be confused when he told the prophet how he really created Man? And Jesus was believed to be born by Mary, but item no 3 above contradicts it as both of them was written in the book. Can anyone give me a clear idea how God made man, and how God made Jesus, because the book you believed in doesn't give a clear view and gives different answers. ;-)
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Habib...and you believe that we came from Adam and Eve? If your belief tells you that they bore a twin, and since from your book, twins are not siblings, that makes them eligible to have sex with each other. Would you ask your children, in case you happen to have fraternal twins (boy and girl pair), to have sex with each other to bore you a grandchild? And what would they look like if that is the case? It's either they'll bore a child who has down syndrome or with physical/psychological defects. why? Those who are relatives up to the 4th degree share the same BAD GENES present in our system. what more brothers/sisters having sex? That is proven by science...wasn't that written in the book?
Surah 9:29 which reads, "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."...Is that what is being taught to be coming from God? How can you tell everyone that the God being portrayed in the book is Just? Peaceful? Loving? yet encourages fighting? How can you preach when your leaders themselves don't follow what was written in the book? They are exempted because they are leaders? and no one dare ask them?
A religion of peace...yet the Surah i posted does not seem to be promoting peace...and a book that allows incest among children to populate.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
You think that if Allah sent a revelation, it would have to be something completely inhuman and strange to us?
Allah's revelation has practical benefit for us, so many times it relates to the common problems and challenges of human life. That it speaks to human issues does not mean that it cannot be from a Divine Source. This because, yes, the Creator of the Universe cares about humans, and in fact created humans as the central purpose of it all - so that through our awareness of His creation we can become aware of Him.
But, the Creator of all this also has His affairs and knowledge which are completely beyond are comprehension. And so naturally, in the Qur'an you will find the human issues addressed side by side with cosmic affairs that nobody but Allah and whoever else He wills understands.
You wrote:
"all religion in the world is man made..All God would ever want is that we be good human beings."
Ok. Fine. So you know all that God would ever want? Or is that just another man made religion (made by you)? And do you even know what a good human being is or how to be one? Yes, of course you do...no questions ever...
Then just after that you wrote:
"Nobody has the answers totally,yet everybody claims the copyright to God and religion.."
But you claim to know "all that God would ever want." That sounds pretty damn close to all the answers if you ask me. Sounds like a claim to the copywright of God and religion.
Yep.. I never entered the sports section..why? Guess what? not interested :)
Imagine me going in there yelling: "heeey..What's all this discussion over formula 1?!!!!"
Religion is like any other field of interest to many ppl provided they abide by debating etiquette ..
For one, I enjoy talking about it but not as "converting" efforts.. that's why I discuss religion with my family, friends etc. and they're already Muslims..
I'm also keen to clarify misconceptions about Islam and the Prophet for the obvious reasons of fairness..
If anyone is annoyed with discussing religion then they have other options in life..
They can either skip this thread, or don't post anything if they don't want to contribute to the discussion. Simple as that. ;-)
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
I Quote: " just because i belive in Islam, doesn't mean that i'll follow it blindly."
Wow..If you have creative powers struggling to be unleashed you have all the world to tranform.. keep religion to its Master..
Believe what you believe. And let everyone believe in what they believe.
I think these beliefs should be kept inside you. Because its not a competition to win. Everyone of us know that these good topics, when it comes to discussion makes many problems, so why again we start discussing the same again.
Was there even a question that needs to be answered???
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
To end the story I have my belief and others have their belief.
Respecting each other is something we should all follow.
j3375: Wise words.
I'm a muslim, but i don't think that any religion is superior to other, just because i belive in Islam, doesn't mean that i'll follow it blindly.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
all religion in the world is man made..All God would ever want is that we be good human beings..Man made up religion and rules to enforce this basic belief..
christians and muslims have always been at conflict over something made by humans themselves(religion)
Christ never claimed to be god..the church made him one..christ himself prayed to god..
Similarly lots of the things observed by muslims in religion are too clearly thoughts of human..like women having to cover up bcos a man may make sexual advances..
Also muslims claim that the main reason the quran is great is bcos it hasnt changed since the begining..if God didnt want you to think or question your faith ,he wouldnt have given you the power TO to do that..
Finally, I think what people of both faiths , by fighting over the correct way to worship god are only doing great disservice to the very great prophets/thinkers,people who they follow..
Nobody has the answers totally,yet everybody claims the copyright to God and religion..
GROW UP AND BE GOOD HUMAN BEINGS ,HOWEVER OR WHICHEVER WAY PLEASES YOU PERSONALLY..IF SOMEBODY HAS ANOTHER VIEW/WAY TO WORSHIP GOD,LET THEM DO SO..LET GOD jUDGE US FINALLY..
If discussing religion pisses you off why do you join in? you can simply ignore the section or ask the admin to remove it altogether!
I can't imagine anyone going to the sport section yelling at the ppl there who discuss sport issues!
Why don't we just discard Religion and go about praising God, much like the way it was? Your religion was created by the followers of your prophet, same as the religion of Christians. Before, them, there was no religion at all. They just believe in God. Why do you need to compete with other religions with claims that yours is better?
Religion is all about political stand. Wars are created by religion. Why do i want to go into something that "promotes peace" and yet is the main cause of conflict? why do i want to believe in a book where the God was portrayed to be a harsh God, who orders his followers to kill the non-believers, then later on would describe him as a merciful and Knowing god? Isn't that such contradiction on your book, calling God Merciful, yet orders the killing of those who do not belong to your religion?
If you go about your lives without your religion and you do good deeds, do you think God wouldn't be more happier, rather than competing with other religions claiming that you have more success in conversion among all, and counting the no of followers of your faith? Do you think God would honor your prayer 5 times a day when your workers are suffering because of you? Do you think God would be just only because you are a muslim and the others are not? If a muslim himself continues to sin, what is the point of having their religion? How many muslim never cheated? How many muslim followed the book religiously? I would say, 1 in a million? and how many followers you have? 300 million, so that would be 300 followers who follow it to the dot!
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
The fingers in your hand are not equal, as Muslims there will be the bad ones and there will be the good ones, and the same applies for Christians.
Let us answer the following questions:
1. What made catholic priests in Vatican enters Islam and foreign scientists as well?
2. Why Muslim Preachers in USA succeeded in the areas where the catholic priests and preachers failed?
3. Why Islam is the fastest growing religion in USA?
and reading all the copies and pastes; there is nothing else to do. We all should run along and learn Arabic and become Muslims.
It's the way forward. Nobody is else is right, no other religion is good enough and we are all fools for thinking otherwise.
Mind you, if we do that, we will have to learn never to question anything, never debate, never respect anothers religion or believe that they too could get the same amount of Peace from daring to believe anything but Islam. Give up Pork, alcohol, having a laugh with the oppisite sex, marrying somebody WE fall in love with, dare to go against our brothers or fathers.
Or is that just me believing the utter crap that is spewed from SOME Muslims on QL who have decided this is the way to spread the good word of Islam.
I am astounded at how these called 'good Muslims' go about spreading the word.
Do you honestly think we want to know? I don't and so do the vast majority of people.
Keep your religious ideals to yourself and IF and it is a big IF, I ever want to know about Islam, I like many others will go to a religious scholar who knows what he/she is talking about and not some half baked, uneduacted fool who thinks they know the answer to everything.
_________________________________________________
Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)
Qatarilady...There isn't any proof that Adam was real, besides the book that you are referring to. The theory of evolution was being proven scientifically by means of archeological finding that support it. The "ape" that were discovered proves that we came from a primitive time, including the tools that were being used then. do you suppose that Adam was created in the Middle east, and their first language was Arabic?
There was NOT A SINGLE proof that Adam or Eve ever existed, and their creation is what we should call ABSURD. Evolution is continous. Until now, there are new creatures being discovered to have evolved from their original form to adapt their surroundings.
If you want us to look at the history to support the claim written in your book, please provide a scientific explanation of the creation of man being created by the Hand of God from clay.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
you're right..that's what I was about to say..
It's not an ordinary text book..some verses are indeed easily understood but to understand other verses you have to know some historical events rerelated to them..
If you'd like yo know about Islam post your P.O Box and I'll try to find something simple in plain English and send it to you.
Yes, I mean a translation of the Quran. But to be fair, no one lived in the time the Quran was written, so even when it is read in Arabic it is open to people's interpretation of what words and phrases meant. So we are all, in effect reading an interpretation of the Quran.
MissX..Probably you mean a translation of the Quran
What else?
The Quran.
MissX..Gypsy..
would you please name the books that you read on Islam? (seriously asking)
I do wonder how you can call it absurd, when you don't really know anything about it. But then continue instead to believe in something that is based on faith alone.
And unlike your religion, the complexities of what happened over time for humans to exist as they are today, are not something we can write story-like and bind in a little leather book for everyone to read and enjoy. It takes a depth of understanding of scientific processes and cell development, mutation, chemical reactions to even begin to have some idea of what evolution actually is. And is why I imagine most people find it quite easy to dismiss. If you never even give it a chance, then you never have to be confronted with how little your knowledge really is.
I was answering your question about the kind Iof books I read by western authors.. Leadership and educational books teach a lot about humanity..
This thread is not about the Darwin theory nor any theory..It was referring to newly discovered scientific facts that were mentioned in Quran..You won't find the Darwin theory in it because it really sounds absurd..but since you're so enthusiastic about it go ahead and tell me about it and please tell me if any part of it was scientifically proven..
I'll read it when I come back with a mood for "phantasia"
Books on Management and Leadership have nothing to do with what we're talking about. We're talking about the origins of humanity and religion. If you haven't read any other books, or studied other philosophies, then really, you're just doing what your told rather then thinking independently.
But how do you know you don't agree with the idea, if you don't even know what the basis of the idea is? I brought attention earlier to the fact that the theory of evolution does not believe we evolved from apes at all. How can you make a judgement call or anything, without first knowing all the information?
I'm not interested in Darwin's evolution theory..If he thinks we evolved from apes that's how he perceives himself..I'd rather settle with the idea that Adam was custom-made by God's Holy Hand..
I gave up reading fiction books 10 years back
I monstly read on management and leardership
So you have hundreds of books by Western authors, yet have never read anything that discusses the concepts of evolution. Are those Western books by any chance fiction novels? You claim to be educated and knowledgeable but you then admit you don't bother to research something if someone you trust has told it to you. Like I said before, I think we have different definitions of educated.
Ok, so what are these books? Are we talking works of fiction or Darwins theory of Evolution?
The point is you said you don't waste your time in learning about other sources about existence besides the Quran. That's extreme.
Gypsy..I invite you to my house and see my library that contains hundreds of titles most of them are by western authors..
I do read and learn a lot and have developped a skill for criticising what I read.. Perhaps that's why I admire the Quran because I "weigh" it against other books and see its greatness
So because she pointed out the obvious she's an extremist? If you don't read anything, or learn anything but what the Quran tells you, or think that you need to learn anything but that, and don't think that anyone else needs to learn anything, then you are against independent thought. Or at least critical thinking.
Gypsy.. She assumed that because we didn't go around looking for how our creation began that means we're "against independent thought"..
"MissX said :"Oh, so no to independent thought then"
Now you're taking the attitude of George Bush "If you're not with us then you're against us" That's exrtemism."
Actually Qatarilady it's you who's taking the extremist view, not MissX.
You refuse to see the shades of gray (much as Bush) or believe any doctrine but your own. Miss X is advocating reading and learning about ALL things before you make a decision.
Supreme: Like qatarilady stated, it's just a positive exchange of opinions.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
&feature=related
Platao36: "I have my belief and that doesn't stop from reasoning with the encouragement of some of the Qur'an verses and i can state that Islam is a mixture of cristianism and judeism, mainly because being the last revelation, it had to have such mixture."
The term "Islam" in the Quran refers to the religion of all believers ever since Adam. Followers of ancient Prophets changed the term and called their religion after the prophet or companions. Judaism after Yahutha (probably I misspelled the name), Christianity after Jesus Christ, Budhism after Budha (Budhism isn't a divine religion BTW).
So had the pattern continued our religion will be called Muhammadism!
Supremebeing said: "so why all this argument over something that only ends with insulting each other."
we're sharing our thoughts and beliefs and hopefully the insulting stops
every one is entitled to have his own thoughts. so why all this argument over something that only ends with insulting each other. if you believe in what you believe in and you're comfortable with it then fine. live and let live.
"Platao said "God didn't needed to sleap with a Goddess, because he's perfect and has the power to generate life alone, while us mere mortals need to have a different sex partner to generate that life, still, He's our father."
You say that you're a Muslim but you seem to have a religion of your own..some mixture of Christianity and Islam. You'd better go and learn your religion so you know what you believe in."
What does my statement above to have with christianism?
I have my belief and that doesn't stop from reasoning with the encouragement of some of the Qur'an verses and i can state that Islam is a mixture of cristianism and judeism, mainly because being the last revelation, it had to have such mixture.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Platao36 said "Qatarilady: Hope you and your husband are sucessfull on having a new children :)"
Thanx
Platao said: "About evolution, i agree that for now it's only a theory, if it's proved than will show that we are real special for Allah because from an irracional beast (a primate not an ape), he turned us in a racional being and that dominated all the other live beings :)"
Beacuse we're special to Him He has created us with His own Holy Hands (as stated in the Quran when Allah asked Satan who refused to bow to Adam: why don't you bow to what I've created with My own hands?)
Platao said "God didn't needed to sleap with a Goddess, because he's perfect and has the power to generate life alone, while us mere mortals need to have a different sex partner to generate that life, still, He's our father."
You say that you're a Muslim but you seem to have a religion of your own..some mixture of Christianity and Islam. You'd better go and learn your religion so you know what you believe in.
MissX said :"Oh, so no to independent thought then"
Now you're taking the attitude of George Bush "If you're not with us then you're against us" That's exrtemism.
What I said doesn't mean Islam forbids research or independent thought. The Quran is filled with verses that encourage independent thinking.
We don't research for 2 reasons:
1- We have been immersed in ignorance for the last 1 or 2 centuries so research skills and resources are not yet developed.
2- We never had the motive to do it. If a Muslim biologist or archeologist decided to research it fine he can do it.
But as long as it's only theoritical it's not wise to judge God according to it.
Qatarilady: Hope you and your husband are sucessfull on having a new children :)
About evolution, i agree that for now it's only a theory, if it's proved than will show that we are real special for Allah because from an irracional beast (a primate not an ape), he turned us in a racional being and that dominated all the other live beings :)
Those extremists that give bad name to our beautifull religion are also following the interpretation of some scholars.
God didn't needed to sleap with a Goddess, because he's perfect and has the power to generate life alone, while us mere mortals need to have a different sex partner to generate that life, still, He's our father.
Gypsy/Roadtester: Couldn't agree more, we all have our religion but should always question the words of the scholars because most of the wars that have happened were caused by their interpretations.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
"We guys don't waste our time trying to find out what we've already been told by a source we firmly trust."
Oh, so no to independent thought then. Hang on I thought "the more educated you are, the stronger your belief in Islam is". But how can that be since you seem to have quite a firm belief in Islam? One of the exceptions? Or is your view of educated a little different from the rest of the world's?
enjoyed talking to you
see you around
coelacanth said "...was there injustice in the time of Abraham? How come there was no recorded war then, both in the Bible and Qu'ran?? Because there was no religion at all. Everyone feared and revered God because of their relationship with him. There was no written doctrines for them to follow. They just follow it diligently without question"
How did they follow something that didn't exist? There was a religion but like you said there wasn't injustice..and there weren't ppl trying to draw the ppl away from their religion.
MissX said: "No, we didn't evolve from apes. Good to see you guys have got your evolution information up to date."
We guys don't waste our time trying to find out what we've already been told by a source we firmly trust.
coelacanth said: "Is that enough for you to know if i believe in God?"
Yep now I know you believe in God, but I'm yet to know if you "know" Him. Since you found that your source of knowledge wasn't accurate then probably it's worth it that you find out another source.
Please don't take it that I claim that I "know it all".. I'm only sharing my thoughts and belifs.
Qatarilady...was there injustice in the time of Abraham? How come there was no recorded war then, both in the Bible and Qu'ran?? Because there was no religion at all. Everyone feared and revered God because of their relationship with him. There was no written doctrines for them to follow. They just follow it diligently without question. They prayed the way they wanted. Until the corruption of man started and wanted to be famous...so they created Religion, a weapon they used like magic to inflict fear on their opponent, that they have power from "beyond" their reach. The opponent resorted to the same thing...coz they wanted to win the war. that's how it all began. Not by God's will, but by human desire!
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
No, we didn't evolve from apes. Good to see you guys have got your evolution information up to date. Maybe go do some research and find out what it is that scientists claim we evolved from and how we did, before you dismiss it. Or is independent thought too much against your belief system?
Qatarilady...i am a FIRM BELIEVER of The Supreme Being, The Creator, The Alpha and Omega, Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, The Great Architect, The Nature God...but based on what i read (used to be a devoted Catholic, raised and lived until i found Deism and Monotheism), it is contradicting with my God. My God is Just...he doesn't order the killing of innocent people, much more children, who know nothing of what's happening around them. My God does not favor anyone, irregardless of his religion, race, color, etc. Treats everyone equal. He doesn't answer prayer by magic. He encourages everyone to have patience and act to get their answered prayer. That way, he doesn't give preference to who gets what he ask. He gave me reasoning to use everyday...and not to be driven by what was told to me or what i read. My God is perfect...and there is no contradiction on what is happening around his creation...the contradiction was cause by human themselves. Is that enough for you to know if i believe in God?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
coelacanth said: religion have been the cause of ALL THE WAR since time started!
Maybe because without faith ppl will just surrender to injustice.
coelacanth said Qatarilady...we do not evolve from apes, because if we do, there wouldn't be anymore of them left. We coexisted with them, with a different feature and more intelligence.
Thank God now I have respect for myself :)
"She needs to give birth every year just to keep up, and teach her kids to have sex with each other?"
According to our references Eve gave birth to children in twins. So each marries the other's twin . This way they are not siblings. ( I know you'll make fun of it but this is what we believe)
So do you believe in God or no? I'm a bit confused. (not asking to judge you just trying to understand more)
Do you think your prophet is the only being who is LUCKY ENOUGH to have a communion with God? Or is it another one of the "coz the book said so" response?
Where is the reasoning on that? God gave it to us to use it, not be dictated by someone who had lived long before we were born and told us stories that God hath spoken to him. They were only acknowledged because their followers protected the manuscript, just like the christians protecting the bible, and started spreading to everyone about what is written and told everyone that it is the word of God.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Gypsy...that is exactly what this is. religion have been the cause of ALL THE WAR since time started! Imagine from the time of Moses, they had war with the egyptians who worship the pharaoh, down all the way to the present time.
Abraham doesn't have any religion that time...was there any recorded war during his time? None. When did all this RELIGIOUS WAR started...when people started making their religions. It's just plain and simple. Honor God however you want, because that's how God wants to be honored. Not by scripted rituals, and not by memorization of "his supposed words".
Religion is Politics. People use it to gain popularity and not to honor God. division was created because of personal gain. Because they want their leader to be known in the history of man!
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
coelacanth said" He is not what the books say He is or was!"
We haven't seen Him and the only access to knowing Him is through what He says He is or He is not in His books
Qatarilady...we do not evolve from apes, because if we do, there wouldn't be anymore of them left. We coexisted with them, with a different feature and more intelligence. Scientists found bones, but that doesn't provide them what it looked like...just like the first discovery of the brontosaurus...they thought the head they discovered belonged to it, but later corrected their discovery that it belonged to another specie. And it changed how we look at the brontosaurus then. How do you suppose we were created, from Adam and Eve? How do you explain the boom of humanity from only 2 sources? She needs to give birth every year just to keep up, and teach her kids to have sex with each other to multiply? Where is the reasoning on those, if that is how you believed we existed? Would you teach your children to have sex with each other, as presumed Adam and Eve did with their kids? Or is it another of "you cannot fathom God" excuses?
Your book has almost the same context as of the bible...how did it happen? Because the author is familiar of the story, and so he rewrite it based on what he reckons the story is...and not by Divine Intervention!
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
coelacanth said Qatarilady...how do you suppose our parents were created by God? and our forefathers? They were created in the same way that you created your son.
Our parents have been created in the same way..definitely. But to take it all the way back to God will mean that God slept with a Godess and she conceived Adam!
We believe that Allah is a unique being who has created all creatures differently. Adam was created from clay and allah gave him a soul that it part of His. This is what's mentioned in the Quran and this is the likeness between God and human beings.
All religions promote violence. Even if it's not overtly stated, it's between every single line. Religion creates an us vs. them mentality and the very idea of "sin" creates "sinners" who are evil and therefore must be stopped before they make you sin. Hence all the religious wars, all the honour killings, terrorism, etc. All in the name of "God"
MissX said
Evolution is a fact. All the steps leading up to modern day humans is not known, which is why it is still considered a theory. However, humans did evolve and do still evolve. But religious people refuse to acknowledge it as fact because then their scriptures would be wrong.
So so-called "children of God" evolved from apes? Wasn't there a better way for God to have children?
khalid - people aren't saying to stop following islam! People are saying to question that scholars have obviously corrupted verses to meet their own ends.
some people want and will try to turn off the light of Islam down, but they will fail, why?
Because God will protect Islam.
Why do you look into the dark places? look at the bright places and good examples.
Qatarilady...how do you suppose our parents were created by God? and our forefathers? They were created in the same way that you created your son. Turn to God as a Father, instead of a MASTER, and you will have a different perspective of who God is. He is not what the books say He is or was! I have no religion, but i am still being blessed. I focus on thanking God and leave the politics of religions created by man. Moses and the rest of the prophets did not create a religion, but a relationship with God/Allah/YHVH. It was the follower of your prophet who made it to a point that your prophet will never be forgotten, much like Christ and Moses and the rest of the prophets.
Religion is nothing but politics. People killing people for the sake of their "belief". Is that what God had planned for His "creation"? Politics, eversince, is the dirtiest of all the games people played.
And God will not ask you if you are Christian or Muslim when you die! It's being used to scare people out and instead turn to their religion for salvation of their soul. It's good if you are following the teachings and living it. Most of the time, you just read it and assume that God had blessed you because you read his "words". God doesn't favor anyone...why would he ask your religion when you die? Is that how feeble minded your idea of God is?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Yes i know im bad for copy and paste but just like the bible the quran also has contradicitons and you dont need a PHD!!!!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14436943/Contradictions-in-the-Quran
and think what is good for you.
A big example is the egyptian scientist who was a muslim believer then changed because he had doubt and finally became a stronger Mulim believer.
Here is some information on him which I found on wekipedia.com
Mustafa Mahmud says that it was not due to denial or obstinacy or disbelief. It was only reexamining a methodology, of which he started without long-established maxims. Along that journey, he was ever close to Allah. Nevertheless, he started thinking of religion from the very beginning… from the beginning of the innate-nature, and what it acknowledges without inherited values. He finished his journey stronger in faith, firmly-established in his belief. The journey had a great influence on all his eighty-nine books he has written.
Those Muslim who fight each other do not understand the core of Islam and they think that islam is only having to do with bear or mostach.
Palatao.. Yes I have seen arabs and Muslims killing fellow Arabs and Muslims but I don't see evidence that they do it for Allah..They have their own agendas
coelacanth.. we don't consider ourselves like snakes or dogs but we're not Gods or Godlets!
My child came out of my body but I didn't create him so he's not my creation. (Actually I've been trying to "create" another one for some years now but failed!)
Our children are God's gifts to us.. they're His creation too..
Qatarilady: Don't you feal being elitist by saying that?
Haven't we seen Arabs killing themselves and other muslim brothers? Do you think that it's a translation problem with them too?
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Khalid: What's a true muslim? The one that follows the Mullahs blindly or the one that questions himself?
I'm not criticising the Qur'an, but using the reason that Allah gave me. About being or not a true muslim, only Allah can say it, you, i, missX, qatarilady, roadtester and all others will be judged by him, we are just debating, you shouldn't loose pacience, it will seam as being loosing your faith. When ever i need, i "talk" to Allah, and he has been blessing me with his love, and even when some difficulties raise on my path, i take them as a test to improve myself on His eyes.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Platao...maybe they consider themselves the same level as the dogs and the snakes who is also part of God's creation.
Qatarilady...we are created in his own likeness, with reasoning. You don't see those from any of the creatures except us humans. If we are his likeness and he created us, what are we to him? Do you refer to your children as just your "CREATION"? With that in your thinking, better start calling your kids (if you have any) MY CREATION, instead of MY CHILDREN, and look at them the way you look at the other low life creatures created with them!
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Palatao.. Let's call everything by its name just to be on the safe side
Palatao.. About the contradictions in the Quran, they don't exist!! why? because the Quran was revealed in the era of those who spoke and understood standard Arabic better than you and me and none of them claimed to have noticed any contradictions.
So if someone now sees contradiction it's because of lack of understanding. If you got a PhD in Arabic and in Islamic History you can tell me then if you see any contradictions
Qatarilady: Don't you considerate a creator as "Father"?
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Have you really looked if there are contradictions in the holy Quran?
A real muslim believer will never say that the Quaran contradicts its self.
Qatarilady...well said, and i applaud you in your response. Regarding the question about helping, that wasn't a direct question to you but a metaphor about what we are talking about, but since you are doing it, God will reward you for that.
Khalid...i have a red heart, much like yours and the rest of the people. I never wanted you to be mad, but your response is making me think that you are an ignorant person trying hard to claim that you know a lot about your faith...the only thing that makes sense on your response is the one that you copy/pasted, the rest...nada. What makes a person good or bad? Obey the law of your country...that will make you a good citizen and a good person. Secondly, do unto others what you want others do unto you. Lastly, use your brain to reason out on whatever you are doing and not base everything on what was written in the book. With all three things in place, that will make a good person out of you. What will make you a bad person...do the opposite of the three. Try to respond like Qatarilady/MissX/Platao is doing...using their own words to tell what they know, and not copy/pasting which is pointless because no one reads it.
Lastly, i never told you to SHUTDOWN THE FREEDOM to express...i am suggesting that if all you will tell is nonsense, then better keep it to yourself because you're just making a fool out of you. Imagine another post you did about a priest and a Muslim? Where in the world did you get that dialogue because NONE of all the people i know would agree that Christians believed that Mary was married to God. That is the most STUPID dialogue i have ever heard...and it comes from your post!
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
I wont say that Qur'an or any of the other revelation books is corrupt but that that they were changed by all scholard to serve their own agendas, if Allah didn't wanted us to question ourselfs about revelations, than, we wouldn't need to be racional beings, we could just follow the leaders like other non racional beings do.
I feal blessed as any of us humans should feal for being created with the power to reason.
As i stated before, Allah said that what counts are the intentions and not the actions, and you come saying that it's the beliefs that count?
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Platao.. your questions are too broad and confusing
First of all.. He's not our father.. He's the Creator and we're His creation.
What do you mean by favorism? As far as I know Allah loves all his creation even non-believers that's why He give the wordly bounty to all ppl even those who don't believe him but Paradise is reserved to the believers. It's only fair!
Platao.. your questions are too broad and confusing
First of all.. He's not our father.. He's the Creator and we're His creation.
What do you mean by favorism? As far as I know Allah loves all his creation even non-believers that's why He give the wordly bounty to all ppl even those who don't believe him but Paradise is reserved to the believers. It's only fair!
QATARILADY: Do you belive Allah is perfect? Wanna tell me how a perfect father behaves with his children? Does he have favourites? Or is he impartial towards all of them?
How can you accept some contradictions on the Holly Qur'an and whistle the other side saying they don't exist?
Do you truelly belive that Allah in all his perfection would be elitist? The human imperfections seam to also be attributted to Allah and you never wondered that something must be wrong?
Never forget, everything obeys to Allah, i'm sure that the ones that adultered His revelations have been punished because we know He's fair and knows all
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Roadtester said The 'fact' that you have sunni, shia, wahabi, and same with chrisitianity; methodist, baptist, adventist, mormon etc shows that gods word has been corrupted.
Sunni and Shia Muslims agree on the same scripture of Quran.. The disagree on other historical details that affected each party's interpretation of verdicts.
coelacanth said "So, non-believers are ...
So, non-believers are NON-MUSLIM? Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc are NON-BELIEVERS?
Your God has such FAVORITISM, much like the God of Christians, who favors only the Israelites!!! and he favors only the Muslim???"
The term "Islam" in the Quran refers to the religion of all believers ever since Adam. Followers of ancient Prophets changed the term and called their religion after the prophet or companions. Judaism after Yahutha (probably I misspelled the name), Christianity after Jesus Christ, Budhism after Budha (Budhism isn't a divine religion BTW).
So had the pattern continued our religion will be called Muhammadism!
Qatari lady I wasn't meaning that people will believe less, what I am saying is that people will question what was written so that the 'true' meaning is found. i.e question silly sunnah passages, better interpret contradicitons in a modern setting.
The 'fact' that you have sunni, shia, wahabi, and same with chrisitianity; methodist, baptist, adventist, mormon etc shows that gods word has been corrupted.
Roadtester said: "Islam will continue to have a rough ride much like Chrisitianity did, because of the general increase in intelligence, literacy etc."
Ironically, the more a person is intelligent and educated the firmer their belief in Islam becomes :)
What happened to Christianity will not happen to Islam because the Church sentenced Galileo (I think) to death because he'd sad that Earth was round! duuh!!
On the other hand the Quran says what means: Allah elevates the knowledgable in status! See the difference?
But I will not.
You think that if some body express his opinion then all people should follow him.
I realy think you coelacanth have a black heart, and a real enemy of Humanity.
I will ask you question I hope (hope is the last thing to die) what makes of a person good or bad?
You are not a good person because you want to make fun of me when you say you use probably use 1 %.
I can really say it is not worth answering you at all.
I think it is shame that there are people on this earth same like you, and I hope they will change to better people.
Why I say this? Because you say that I sadi which actually I did not say.
You want to shut down the freedome and you think if some one express his thoughts or when he post articles, then others should follow him.
I think you have a big lack in your personality because you think my posts attack you.
I think also you are not patient person and this is obvious from your negative replies.
MissX you asked: "does not sound like God considers fighting as a last resort when he tells you to kill the disbelievers when they don't convert."
Allah does not order Muslims to kill those who don't convert. During the lifetime of the Prophet and following Califs many Jews and Chiristians lived among Muslims. Then why did the Prophet fight non-Muslims? Two broad reasons:
1- In self defense when non-believers plotted to put an end to Islam.
2- The second case was when the Prophet sent letters to the kings of non-Muslim nations inviting them to Islam but the kings either killed the messengers who brought the letters or refused to allow the message of Islam in their countries so the ppl then can choose to embrace Islam or not.
At the time there was no Internet nor TV or any other media to introduce the message of Allah so the only way was through the kings.
George W. Bush was imitating this method when the US was calling for the democratisation of the middle east. The only difference was that he was after ME oil.
Islam will continue to have a rough ride much like Chrisitianity did, because of the general increase in intelligence, literacy etc.
I cannot believe that the scribes at the time were vastly more intelligent than us if anything they were less.
One sentence only needs one or two wrong words to change the meaning added to that plato's comment of scholars purposely changing parts to fit their/leaders/mullahs cultural beliefs etc at the time.
And if treating the ppl who work for me count then Thank God I help ppl daily
coelacanth you said : "action speaks louder than words. Your memorization will just be considered mumbling if you don't know how to live it"
Well said.. totally agree with you. I think there is something called "macro history" where you study major historical events over a long period of time.
Arabs were in an indescribable condition of mischief before the advent of Islam. After the teaching of Islam they ruled most of the world and brought justice and civilisation to nations that used to live in the dark ages. When they started to lose their faith and immerse in wordly pleasures they lost their path and drawned in ignorance.
you also said: "When was the last time you've helped a person on the street? When was the last time you shared what you have to those who need?
I do this all the time but I don't document it :) but the last time was sometime last week.
yout question: Who is more righteous, a humanitarian worker who is not a muslim, or a muslim who does all day is babble and pray and do nothing?
According to Muslims: There are 2 points cregarding a non-Muslim who does humanitarian work. He will be rewarded in the wordly life because of his work, like international good reputation but he might not go to paradise because he's not worshipping God. And I say "might not" because I don't know for sure.
As for the Muslim who doesn't do anything the Prophet already said that that kind of Islam isn't good
QatariLady...action speaks louder than words. Your memorization will just be considered mumbling if you don't know how to live it. Even PAGANS can memorize and recite your book without even believing it's context. Will they be on the same status as you are if they can recite it without even believing on what was written on it?
God judges us not by how well you memorize the verses, but by how well you live your life. Not doing bad thing doesnt make you a good person. Failure to do what you know is right will make a bad person out of you. When was the last time you've helped a person on the street? When was the last time you shared what you have to those who need? Who is more righteous, a humanitarian worker who is not a muslim, or a muslim who does all day is babble and pray and do nothing?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
MagicDragon you said "The above famous ...
"The above famous scientists".
Never heard of any of them!
You don't have to take their word for it. If you're interested in finding out the truth about the Quran if it's really been revealed by God, you can judge for yourself. Take some of the statements of the Quran regarding newly discovered scientific facts and see if they're contradicting.
I believe you'll be smart enough not to compare the Quran to theories.
coelacanth.. and about Nostradamus I read some where that he was a jew and that he took some prophecies from the Torah..I don't know if it's true or not but It's possible
Platao...thanks for that. but as you see, not all Muslim are open minded like you (not to mention you are a fellow deist yourself :)) They still believed that the book is being protected by God from being tampered or whatsoever. The above post of Khalid mentioned about Government vs Muslim, showing the Government as non-believers. How are you going to relate the police who are doing their job in protecting the community from violence, become non-believers?
The mentality of them is this: Anyone who opposes their belief is a non believer. They don't know where to draw the line between religion, science and politics. They only refer to what was written in their book, and being blinded as if it was the ONLY THING you need to live.
khalid...the suicide bombers who are considered "martyrs" by killing infidels...does their body also will not rot? Why don't you set Iraq and Afghanistan as an example. The bombers were Muslims, and they were killing the Infidels, aka non believers, who are in fact their fellow muslims also. Why is that so? Because the book said so? Where is the common sense in that?
GOD WILL NOT ORDER THE KILLING OF HIS CREATION. THAT IS WHY HE GAVE US REASONING, WHICH IS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE FROM ALL HIS CREATION. IF YOUR GOD ORDER YOU TO KILL YOUR BROTHER, WHAT KIND OF GOD IS HE? YOUR GOD IS THE SAME AS THE CHRISTIAN GOD, WHO ORDERED THE KILLING OF INNOCENT CHILDREN.
If you say your God is Just, where is Justice in his order to kill the non-believers whenever you see them?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
coelacanth you said:
"or if the writer experienced it himself and write on his own accord"
Muslims have documentation of the Quran and Hadith down to a science as part of the strategic goal of preserving the Quran and Hadith to eliminate the possibilities of being changed and lost as happened to the Bible and Torah.
They didn't write from their own accord but they wrote the Quran as it had been revealed, word by word and letter by letter from memory and using written texts that some of the Prophets' companions had kept.
It is imaginable that they used to memorise the Quran in that way because nowadays millions of Muslims memorise the Quran in the same precision. Contests all over the world are organised every year for reciting the whole Quran from memory. Perhaps you've heard of some contests here in Qatar.
Coelecanth/Khalid/MissX: Like i stated previouslly, it's not God or the profet Mohammed (pbuh) fault but all these contradictions just show that the Qur'an was secretelly changed after the profet's death, we need to remember that only the scholars would have noticed the change.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
No, not at all. My question was why God encourages you to kill disbelievers, when he admits himself, it is him keeping them as disbelievers?
And, for the post above. I can't even be bothered researching it to be certain it's a load of words with no proof, evidence or credibility and is just something you read off some random website.
The verses of Quran which states “Kill the qafirs (disbelievers) wherever you see them”:
Reply: The reason for revelation of these verses was to guide the Muslims at the time of holy war and directed them to kill the disbelievers as they were used to plot innocent killings by seek and hide manner. As for example, during communal riots or during civil war, the situation may arise that the enemy can come right in front of the house. At such time, God directs and orders the Muslims to kill the disbelievers. Such incident happened during the communal riots of Gujarat in 2002 where Government machineries itself played the role of villain against Muslims. The police who is the public protector, became devour. What a true sky book Quran is! It guides the Muslims “Kill the disbeliever wherever you see” Similarly is the case of Kosovo. So, the God knows the all things of past, present and future. The disbelievers are exposed. Whenever civil war type situation will occur, God gives permission to kill disbelievers, this is valid when the disbelievers attack Muslims. The Muslims will be rewarded as a martyr by God. During Gujarat riots of 2002, eight Muslims were martyred by the Hindu in Lunavada town near Godhara in Gujarat state of India. Their bodies were found after eight months when some labourers were digging out soil for a contractor. The bodies were intact without any sign of decomposition! They were easily recognized by their relatives. The bodies were handed over by police of Lunavada to the relatives. It is recorded in police station of Lunavada! The muslim martyrs were from Karanta village which is about 15 kilometers away from Lunavada. The bodies of Muslim saints never get rotten. The people of past time had witnessed such thing and the people of present time have been witnessing these things as the bodies found intact without any decomposition at the time of reopening of the grave of a Muslim saints as per tradition of some sufi-chain of Islam. Such incidents are the proofs of the truthfulness of Islam.
None of those posts even attempts to answer my original question.
And wars are considered holy because they are in defense of a religion, which is considered a holy cause. And it definitely does not sound like God considers fighting as a last resort when he tells you to kill the disbelievers when they don't convert.
In Islam, the protection of one soul from being killed may be equal to giving life to all humankind; likewise, the killing of an innocent soul may be equal to the killing of the entire human race.
Allah Almighty says: "For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth." (Al-Ma’idah: 32)
Islam is against oppression and injustice and killing innocent people, whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims. This fact is declared in the Qur’an when Allah says: "Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition." (An-Nahl: 90)
So, non-believers are NON-MUSLIM? Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc are NON-BELIEVERS?
Your God has such FAVORITISM, much like the God of Christians, who favors only the Israelites!!! and he favors only the Muslim??? Of course, if i would be a writer, i would tell everyone that my god only favors my race, and my belief! Your prophet created your religion, of course in his writing, why would he promote christianity? Moses has no religion besides Monotheism, and on his writing, God Favors the Israelites and even wrote that they are the CHOSEN RACE, the FAVORED PEOPLE. What needs to be analyzed here? Your prophet wrote the book (or dictated the writer to write), and he is promoting the religion, and because there are other religions (christians, i suppose) who are after him,he wrote in the book that those non-believers should be killed, in revenge for what they are doing to him and his followers.
Such great teaching you have there...kill the non-believers! If they attack you, kill them. God teaches forgiveness, and there you are, in your book written how God teaches you to be violent. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. That law is for savages, who know nothing. But how come it's written in your book? You mean to tell me that if i slap your face, you are authorized by God to KILL ME, according to his LAW, as i am a non-muslim, aka, non-believer?
Such Weird god you have...telling his followers to KILL the NON-BELIEVERS and making the NON-BELIEVERS a NON-BELIEVER until he WILLED for them to believe? Yeah, we only use 21% of our brain during our lifetime, but i guess you have only used 1% of yours!
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
God commands the believers to invite others to His way in the most peaceful manner. In this call, the Muslims are commanded to appeal to their common sense and to their own faith in truth and justice. Most certainly God has categorically prohibited forcing anyone to accept Islam, let alone killing! The Qur’an says what means:
*{Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things}* (Al-Baqarah 2:256).
*{Say: “The Truth is from your Lord.” Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject [it]}* (Al-Kahf 18:29).
*{Goodness and evil can never be equal. Repel [evil] with good: then will he between whom and you was hatred become as it were your friend and intimate}* (Fussilat 41:34).
*{Invite [all] to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His path, and who receive guidance}* (An-Nahl 16:125).
The concept of a holy war comes from the Christian history of the Crusades. Islam never considers war as holy. Fighting is allowed in Islam only as a last resort, as a necessary evil, not as something holy. The Qur’an says what means:
*{To those against whom war is made, permission is given [to fight], because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid…}* (Al-Hajj 22:39).
It is the same God,
Our God is the one who gave every one his full rights.
One of these simple rights is to believe in him or no.
Regarding MissX question,
In the begining of Islam the non believers wanted to burry Islam, and the non believers started the fight, and Muslims had to defend them selfs.
Muslims never started any fight.
I will answer the questions shortly.
Also remember that the human knowledge is limited.
Why?
Because researchers say that we only use around 21 % of our brain, now may be new studies came and say the usage is more.
Mary was married to Joseph, NOT God. Unless she's guilty of polyandry. :)
Regarding your "dialogue" with the priest, that is the worst that i've read so far, considering that Christians do not believe that GOD married Mary. You believed Mary born Jesus because of Immaculate Conception, so you also believe that God married Mary when Jesus was born? If you can provide proof of your allegations about Christian belief, please do so, otherwise follow my suggestion to KEEP YOUR COMMENTS TO YOURSELF. Answer my questions first if you want to be recognized as "knowledgeable" of your faith! MissX raised a question, i did a follow up on that same question, but why are you trying to divert it? I know you are just trying to prove yourself to be "protector" of your faith, but FOR GOD's SAKE...READ FIRST, instead of babbling what you thought was correct and would end up being corrected by your fellow.
And to clarrify things, who is God referring to as "non believers", and in the present times, who are the "non believers" that God will not change to believe in order for them to be "killed" by believers?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
If the God did not have wife, then how can we be his sons or daughters.
Here is a short debate between a priest and a Muslim
Priest: Our Jesus is better than your Mohammed.
Muslim: Why you say like this?
Priest: Because Jesus did not marry and Mohammed Married.
Muslim: Why? Is marriage something dirty?
Priest: Yes Marriage is dirty.
Muslim: Are you married?
Priest: No.
Muslim: But your Belief says that God married Merium and Jesus was born right?
Priest: Yes that is our belief.
Muslim: Then this would say that God did something dirty, are you better than God? Are you better than God?
The priest shut up with no answer
People who do not want to believe would not believe what ever is done to them or what ever sign they see.
None believers will only believe when God wells.
We as Muslims should not force them.
Finally the Quran came for all the people on this earth.
You can ask the scholars of Al Azhar,
Who is anyone to say the bahais are wrong? We might all go on this site and say Islam is wrong because a bloke in the bar told us...
As far as I know they are not representing Islam and do not claim to.
Khalid...i would suggest you keep all your comments to yourself as you are not making any sense AT ALL!
As for the FAther and Children Analogy about God, FYI, we are not CREATURES, but CHILDREN OF GOD. Do you consider yourself a DOG in the sight of God? Of maybe a COW? Do you think the way God looks at us is the same as he looks at a snake? We are the only "creatures" created by God whom he gave intelligence and reasoning to progress...so that makes us excel among other creatures, and that makes us special. God created us in his own likeness, meaning with intelligence and reasoning, and gave us FREEWILL to do what we like, and learn from what we've experienced. Animals have intelligence, but they just learned it by instinct.
So, isn't it contradicting, the fact that your book states that God will keep non-believers as they are so that they can be killed, while the other context that my brother, Platao, posted states that everyone has freedom to choose their religion? If you don't understand the clarity of those 2 verses that are contradicting, then you are simply shutting your eyes and accepting it because you were raised to believe it...just like the Christians...if they can't interpret what it says, they call it "The Mystery". That's why the Bible has LOTS OF MYSTERIES because they don't understand what it says.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
MissX: That's another example of something that was probably secretelly changed in the Holly Qur'an. When it was written no one would notice it but nowadays, we have raised our education level and wont belive in it as before
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Because you do not know why this versus came?
Each versus has a reason or occasion which happened and we should know these occasions.
Understanding the meaning of the Quran is very important, so please go through it carefully.
Quick judgement most of the time will bring wrong conclusions.
Oh I'm sorry, Did I take the killing of disbelievers out of context?
Nono after re-reading it, it still says to kill the disbelievers! Out of context or no, killing is killing and no God worth worshipping would condone it and grant you a clear conscience.
hmm let's think what a truly wise and merciful God would say. Oh yeah, he would say defend your life and the life your family if it is truly threatened by anyone, but do so using only the means needed, and do so without pleasure. It definitely doesn't sound like that when he tells you to slay them where they stand. Repeatedly!
Also, I noticed no one bothered to comment on the fact that Allah admits he keeps the disbelievers disbelieving. Does no one question his will to kill them, when it is him who keeps them as the people he says must die?
"2:225 Allah will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths. But He will take you to task for that which your hearts have garnered. Allah is Forgiving, Clement."
"2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower."
"2:257 Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein."
This is a good example, if there's no compulsion on religion why are the unbelivers punished? Didn't He say that we'll be judged by our intentions?
My heart may not be pure, but does that mean that i don't belive in Allah, on his profet Mohammed (pbuh) and in the Qur'an has his last revelation?
Didn't He gave us a brain to reason?
Regarding my text on my file, i haven't changed it since i subscribbed, but if makes my muslim brothers and sisters feal better, i'll change it.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
listen miss x....regarding ur post of killing the disbilevers.....u have posted some verses of quran...just go thru them carefully and u will find the order of killing disbelivers conditional...that is....fight them ONLY if they start fighting u..BUT BEGING NOT HOSTILITIES...how do u interpret this?....secondly each verse of the quran has a relation with verses before and following it...in oredr to understand the exact meaning and aviod misinterpretation u HAVE TO read it in conjuction with those before and following it....for example u read a sentence that says "a father askd his son not to go to school"...and u interpret it that way,but then u read the whole thing and it says"a father askd his son not to go to school if he is sick" now the whole scenario changes...
platao36....Allah has taken the responsibilty to protect the Quran from amendments....i qoute the verse for u...Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)(15:9)...and u know that Allah never breaks his promise...so how can u say that the holy book suffered some changes....
coelacanth...regarding ur post" What would you gain if you read the book and do nothing? Do you think God will commend you because you've memorized the book, verse by verse?"...dear u are misinterpreting it....EVEN MUSLIMS who do bad deeds will be punished ...thats why Allah says to enter islam as a whole and obey quran completely not only a part of it...those who do bad deeds will be punished and the punishment amounting to their bad deeds...and when justice is done then only they will enter the heaven...
For all....why do u compare God with a human by giving example of father and his love for his children....God is the creator and human is the creature...and even if u do that still u are wrong in ur own perception...how can a father have equal likeness for his sons if one of them always obeys him and the other do the opposite what his father says...look around ur own family and friends and u will find many
Earlier post you said "but i feal like that our Holly book suffered some changes" next post you tell us about wrong acts of some scholars or so called muslims.
If your problem are with those individuals then you cannot claim there is issue with ISlam or Quran, they may be doing wrong due to ignorance or delibrately. May Allah guide us.
IF your problem is that Quran changed, then produce proof for your claim!!! Quran is perserved word by word since its revelation till now. And Allah has said in the Qur'an HE will protect it from corruption!
"Verily , We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (I.e. Quran) and surely,We will guard it (from Corruption)"
(Quran :: V. 15:9)
"Have they not seriously examined the Qur'an? If it had come form some other source than Allah, they would have found a great deal of contradictions in it" Qur'an 4:82
And if you are in any doubt about what We have revealed to Our servant (Muhammad),then produce a chapter like it and then call in your witnesses besides Allah,if you are truthful. If you do not & surety you will not, then heed the Fire whose fuel is Men and stones which is prepared for the disbelievers"Qur'an 2:23-24
Please show us some of so called 'changed texts' you found,And its strange to see that you say about urself dat ur aint a muslim in ur profile:
I"'m a peace worker that belives in only 1 God, it can be called either God or Allah, and no, i ain't either christan/protestant/jew/muslim but a monotheist just like Moses, Jesus Christ and Mohamed."
Islaam4u
Ishqia: Thanks for your offer, but i also see a lot of things that are forbidden by Allah and still, some that call themselves muslims still practice and i include some scholars and i haven't seen them stopping those actions because of it, so why isn't is possible that the same situation has happened after the profet's death?
If we all belived that Islam is about love, why do some of us fall under satan domination by killing innocent and judging others using our "limited knowledge"?
Please, don't feal offended by my words, just stop and think a bite. I'm sure that you'll agree with me that Allah and the profet Mohammed, would never be contraditory on their words, so the only reason i see for some contradictions is that some of the tests were secretly changed by scholars, just because they are scholars doesn't mean they wouldn't hide any change they would have done, afterall they are also humans with "limited knowledge".
Khalid: Thanks, think i read it 1 or 2 weeks ago :)
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
islaam4u, a very good post, may allah bless u for this,
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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.
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You can go and see my post
Why Preachers enter Islam?
platao i m really amazed, just because u cant understand some part of quran or find it contradicting , u think it suffered some changes, indeed let me tell u that allah has taken it as his responsibility to protect quran from any change or harm, so do u doubt the word of god, secondly let me remind u we have limited knowledge , if something in quran is beyond ur understanding and seems contradictry to u, it means ur knowledge and understanding of it is limited and not that quran is wrong,
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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.
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Thanks Coelecanth :)
Khalid: I belive in the Qur'an as per my faith and following it's teachings, i also reason about what seams contraditory to me, but i don't blame Allah or the profet Mohammed (pbuh) but i feal like that our Holly book suffered some changes after the profet's death but that were never revealed.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
That's why:
"Give it up, if people want to convert to Islam they will not use QL as a sounding board at all.
NOBODY reads these copy and pastes.......why? They are boring and confusing and do not make sense to anybody apart from Muslims or somebody that is studying Islam.
Mohammed was a man who said he got messages from God, so did Jesus. I have faith there is a God. If you claim him as yours so be it; but please stop now it is boring."
please answer the questions
Bahais are wrong wrong wrong and they are not representing Islam as many of their belief are totally wrong.
What about the bahais did they not have a the last word?
I will mention some points
1. The Quran came for the believers and non believers, therefore if it comes for the non believers then how it would ask to kill the non believers?
2. Islam reached Malaysia and Indonesia without fight.
3. Islam did not spread by killing non believers, and it is normal to defend your self if some body attacked you.
4. Muslims message to spread Islam peacefully, and Muslims attacked those who will attack Muslims.
Also can you answer these questions:
1. Why do not take the shining and good examples?
2. What do you know about God mercy?
do protest too much.
If Islam is growing as you say it is and it is the last word and it is all that it is claimed to be why all the posts and copy and pastes?
Simply put; we are bored with it on QL.
You foloow your wonderful religion, live your life, enjoy what it gives you. I am happy for you but please stop with this constant surge of Koran and quotes.
Shall I start posting here about Jesus Christ and all that he did and what he saw.
It's almost like a case of. 'my Dad is bigger is bigger than your Dad'!
Give it up, if people want to convert to Islam they will not use QL as a sounding board at all.
NOBODY reads these copy and pastes.......why? They are boring and confusing and do not make sense to anybody apart from Muslims or somebody that is studying Islam.
Mohammed was a man who said he got messages from God, so did Jesus. I have faith there is a God. If you claim him as yours so be it; but please stop now it is boring.
________________________________________________
Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)
Khalid seriously. No one reads your copy and paste posts. We simply don't care, and they are most likely irrelevant to the point.
Your comment that the Quran says to kill disbelievers because they threatened to harm the prophet, and is only relevant to that time, is inadequate. If that being the case, then we can safely say the entire Quran is only applicable to the time it was written in, and therefore all your current practices of Islam are useless. Come up with a better answer.
So you see, as you mentioned that there were "non believers" who are trying to kill your prophet...would just make sense that the "word from god" was to kill the non-believers, as this was what he felt, and not what god had told him. you see...a writer will just write what he was ordered to write...and the intention was clear...to retaliate to those non-believers. does it mean that God only favors your prophet? Because God shuts the eyes and ears of non-believers for them to be killed by the believers. Sounds like a cruel God to me... would you do that to your kids? Would you not teach your kid the right thing so that he can be killed by his siblings? We are creation of One God...and i don't think out of his million creation, He would only favor one...
Religion is spread by sword...not by preaching alone. do you think God wanted his children to be divided because he favors only one?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
I found it on the internet and I posted it already
one month ago
Muslims believe that the Qur`an consists of words that were miraculously formulated by God in the heart of the Prophet Muhammad, his will playing no part in it. This is also expressed by saying that the Spirit (or the angel Gabriel) revealed the verses of the Qur`an to him. This belief did not develop as a result of gradual reflection or as a result of a decision taken by the community after the Prophet. Rather, this belief was a part of being Muslim from the very beginning for the simple reason that the Qur`an itself clearly states it (2:23,97, 4:82, 6:19, 10:38, 14:1, 17:86-88, 26:192-194, 27:6, 42:24, 56:77-80, 80:11-16, 81:19-29, 85:21-22). To be a Muslim has always meant to accept Muhammad as the Messenger of God which in turn has always meant accepting the Qur`an as the word of God.
What is the Qur`an?
The Prophet Muhammad started his mission in the early 7th century moved by a conviction that he had been entrusted with an extremely important and urgent message for humankind. This conviction came upon him in a forceful way without any anticipation on his part. Traditions suggest that he felt compelled to take up this mission in the face of initial reluctance and apprehensions.
The performance of this mission required making some statements, taking some actions, and dealing with reactions to those statements and actions, which required making still more statements and taking still more actions. The Qur`an played a central part in this process. It consists of statements that moved the mission along. These statements, along with the actions taking place in the background, were extremely effective as may be judged from the fact that within a period of about 23 years the Prophet was able to win the hearts and minds of his people, despite sustained and fierce opposition, and launch a world wide religious movement.
The Qur`an performs two functions in the mission of the Prophet. On the one hand, it prepares a community transformed in the light of its message and helps deal with the unceasing opposition from its first hearers, and on the other hand, it enshrines that message for all future generations. The Qur`anic words are therefore at one and the same time tied to the immediate circumstances of the Prophet’s activity and transcend those circumstances.
The message of the Qur`an
What is the message according to which the Qur`an transforms those who accept it and that it wants to convey to the rest of humanity? This message calls humanity to faith in, and relationship with, the one true transcendent God. Muhammad himself had a particularly strong and close relationship with God and enjoyed its tremendous benefits. His being Messenger of God primarily means that he is chosen by God to help others build a similar relationship with him and thus share God’s grace. That is why the Qur`an calls him rahmah li al-‘alamin (grace to all the worlds) (21:107).
Most of humanity has always believed in some kind of supreme God and this was certainly the case during the time of the Qur`anic revelation. Consequently, the Qur`an does not concern itself with the question of God’s existence. Its primary focus is on the problem that after recognizing his existence in some way most people ignore him because they do not believe in his revelations, as if he has nothing to say to them and they have nothing to do with him. Or, they recognize his relevance to one aspect of their lives (such as their personal life) and ignore him in other aspects (such as the political). Or they create his image in their own minds rather than submit to him as he is. Or they simply turn away from him as too unknown and too remote and start worshipping some other beings either as his incarnations or as mediators or as completely separate deities (6:91, 39:3,38,67, 43:87, 29:63).
In the Qur`an belief in God is a far reaching belief with tremendous implications. It requires nothing short of a wholehearted commitment and complete surrender to God (islam). It also requires taking responsibility in life. Human beings are not created to aimlessly wander in life (75:36). They are created as God’s slaves (‘ibad) to serve his purpose (51:56), although as they can also be his friends (4:135).
Responsibility requires accountability. Some accountability of our actions takes place in this life but at the same time people are often rewarded here for some of the wrongs they do and are punished for some of the good deeds they do. In the face of this reality we may either deny the existence or relevance of God or conclude that complete accountability of our actions will take place in a future life. In the Qur`an it is one of the momentous consequences of the belief in God that one day in the hereafter human beings will answer for their actions before God (17:13-15 etc).
Believers and non-Believers
Believers are, of course, those who freely (2:256, 4:79-80, 6:107, 16:82, 17:53-54, 21:107-109, 39:41) respond to the call of the Prophet and accept him as the Messenger of the one true God. They are often addressed in the Qur`an and given various types of instructions for their spiritual and moral development and for organizing their collective life. The Qur`an also talks a great deal about other religions and their adherents. Its attitude towards them flows from a universal outlook on revelation and salvation.
In the Qur`anic view revelation is an expression of man’s own true nature (fitrah) as God meant it to be (30:30). This is why good can be described as ma‘ruf, meaning “recognized (as good by humanity generally)” and bad is munkar, meaning “rejected (as bad by humanity generally)”. The knowledge of good and bad and of the need to have a relationship with God is found in the depth of every human soul (91:7-10, 7:172), although in most human beings it is suppressed by various factors such as negative influences of the society, demands of worldly needs, and of some human weaknesses such as impatience, slavery to one’s desires, arrogance, and unawareness of one’s ignorance (10:12, 14:21, 17:11, 25:28-29, 40:47-48, 51:11, 70:19-21, 76:27 etc). The purpose of revelation is to bring this knowledge out of suppression, to resurrect it from its grave in the human soul. This is something that human beings cannot achieve by their own will (2:23, 17:88 etc), since the very tendencies that suppress the knowledge also hinder or corrupt its expression. Humanity needs messengers of God speaking with divine inspiration (98:1-3).
Consistent with the above view, revelation is not considered as channeled exclusively through one person or one nation. Rather messengers of God have arisen among every nation (16:36). And all these messengers essentially taught the same message (42:13), although in details of outward rites (manasik) and regulations for organizing community life (shir‘ah and minhaj) they differed (22:67, 4:48). Since revelation played a part in the formation of many, if not all the existing traditions, salvation is achievable through them if a person commits wholeheartedly to the one true God and as a consequence leads a life of goodness (2:112). In particular, Sabians (probably the followers of John the Baptist), Jews and Christians “shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve” if they have faith in the one true God, believe in the hereafter, and do good (2:62, 5:69). Christians who worship Jesus as God will not enter paradise unless they turn to the forgiving and merciful God in repentance (2:72-74), but the Qur`anic judgment will be exactly the same if some Muslims deified Muhammad and started to worship him. Such worship of human figures is contrary to the universal religion which according to the Qur`an is the essence of the teachings of all the true messengers of God raised among all nations.
Since there is light of revelation outside Islam and non-believers have the possibility of salvation, the world of Islam and the non-believing world are not distinguished absolutely in terms of good and evil, light and darkness. Other religions are viewed as a mixture of divine light brought by the true messengers of God and errors introduced by some of their followers. Therefore the functions of the Qur`an include being a confirmer (musaddiq) (2:97, 3:3) and guard (muhaymin) (5:48) of the divine light in earlier religions, identifying serious errors introduced by some of their adherents (5:116, 57:27) and resolving some of their differences (27:76-79). Thus the Qur`an maintains an attitude of constructive criticism towards other religious traditions. The same is true of the followers of those traditions. They are not painted with the same brush (3:69 etc); rather the Qur`an expressly states that “they are not all alike” (3:113). It praises some of their good qualities while criticizes some of their weaknesses (57:27, 5:13-14, 9:31, 34). In this regard it is important to note that such a critical attitude is not reserved for only non-believers. Believers and even the Prophet himself can be criticized for some of their failings (62:11, 66:1, 80:1-12). The Qur`an, as the word of the Lord of all humanity, shows no partiality except towards righteousness (6:115, 49:13), just as it teaches its followers to rise above all partiality other than partiality towards truth and justice (4:135, 5:8 etc).
Sometimes the Qur`an calls non-believers to faith in Muhammad and the revelation he has been given (3:179, 4:170, 5:15-16, 7:158). But it is perfectly willing to accept that some of them will choose to continue to follow the religion of their fathers. Because of this acceptance, the Qur`an often addresses non-believers as non-believers, encourages them to follow faithfully the revelations that they were given (5:44, 46-47), and establishes rules for dealings with them (5:5).
All this provides an excellent basis for dialogue between believers and non-believers, through which believers can listen with sensitivity to non-believers and learn about their traditions, exploring where there is agreement but without ignoring important differences, especially those that relate to God’s unity and transcendence (3:64). As a result of such dialogue there can be cooperation on what is just and virtuous, but not on sinful causes (5:2).
The Qur`an also deals with relationships of the Muslims with the non-believers at the individual and collective levels. Unfortunately, many non-believers showed much hatred and enmity towards Islam and Muslims, throwing Muslims out of their homes (3:195), or making fun of their prayer and religion generally (5:57-58), and either waging war or kindling the flames of war between Muslims and some other non-believers (5:64) or by other subversive devices (3:72). Although at an individual level Muslims can have even such intimate relationship as that of marriage with those non-believers who are truly monotheists (5:5, 2:221, 5:72), Muslims are advised not to take hostile non-believers as allies against the purposes of Islam and the collective interests of the Muslim community (5:51, 57). Those non-believers who are not hostile are explicitly exempted from this advice (60:8) and even in case of hostile non-believers the Qur`an holds forth the hope that hostility will some day change to love: “It may be that God will generate love between you and those of them with whom you are now at enmity. God is capable (of all things); God is forgiving and merciful” (60:7).
there was too much hate by the non believers who tried to kill our prophet Mohammed, and also tried to turn off the light of Islam, so some versus came to fight those and stop them and this was applicable at the early ages only.
What your belief is, you should defend your family and country.
Some people think that what was applicable before should be applicable now also.
Even funnier Coel, is that the Quran encourages killing disbelievers, but also acknowledges that God made disbelievers, and that God has chosen to cover their ears and their eyes and make them disbelieve, for only he can decide when they will open their hearts to him.
So in other words, God created them, made and kept them as disbelievers, and then encouraged people to kill them for disbelieving. Sounds like a very smart God indeed.
What's all this about?
MissX...thank you! Now that verse is what those bombers are holding on to...i can't imagine my God to be so favorable, and ordering to kill those who do not believe. Aren't those believers also a creation of God? Why do you think God would order His creation to kill one of his creation for the sake of forcing them to believe? What is the essence of FREEWILL given by God if he will SMITE those who do not believe??
It's like...I give you FREEWILL BUT...hmmm...
The God being portrayed in your books is a god who favors a few...a god who kills those who do not obey him... i can't imagine my father telling me to kill my sister because she don't follow his rules!
Can you imagine telling it to your children, to kill each other if they did not obey the Father?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Platao...my friend...welcome back!
I am a firm believer of God, but not of the religions made by man. Why would the "bad examples" interpret the book that teaches peace, that way? Unless there was something in the book that their leaders are pointing out that cause them to interpret it that way?
And your comment about "do all the people follow what they read?" is a bit lame...like making excuses for those followers who are not obeying what was written to justify their actions..."since there are others who are not following it, they can do it as well" type of analogy.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Just keep the faith people. What is good to you sometimes is bad for the rest. You cannot convinced someone to believe that your camel have eight legs. Some scientist are mad, just like Rasputin and they don't talk using their brain. Too much of glorifying the past events carries not substances. Just let it rest in a history books.
Of course. here are but a few.
Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
Chapter 2, Verses 190-191
Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.
Chapter 4, Verse 76
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
Chapter 4, Verse 89
Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
Chapter 4, Verse 91
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.
Chapter 5, Verse 33
And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers
Chapter 5, Verse 45
O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end.
Chapter 8, Verse 15-16
Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). (4) Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush
Chapter 9, Verse 4-5
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
Chapter 9, Verse 123.
And that is all I could be bothered to post. There are too many for me to bother including them all.
I will comment on that if I can.
You forgot to add the quotes where the Quran states that it is ok to harm people, if the people are disbelievers Khalid.
do all the people follow what they read?
Why do you take the bad examples?
Why you do not take the shining examples?
Here are some examples from the holy Quran statements
“On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.” ( 5:32 )
"…and seek not corruption in the earth; lo! Allah loveth not corrupters " (28:77)
“The blame is only against those who oppress men and wrong-doing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a penalty grievous” (42:42)
"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loves those who are just" (60:8)
"O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do" (5:8)
“We sent thee (O Muhammad) not save as a mercy for the peoples” (21:107)
I have my faith, as a muslim, but it never stopped from reasoning and even our holly books asks us to prove what we find and that it isn't written in the Qur'an, if it's proved than it's true, it's a bite ofensive to Allah to consider that all knowledge is written in just a few pages when weknow that His knowledge is ilimited.
We are all free to have our own beliefs, there's no choosen religion, that's just a way that some scholars use to try to gather more power, when the time comes, they'll also be judged by Allah as severlly as they have been judging others.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
And the suicide bombers in Iraq and Afghanistan, i'm sure they've 100% read the Qu'ran...because what they always shout before they launch an attack is..."Allah Akbar...Death to the Infidels!". Blasphemy in the making of a Martyr??? And they will be rewarded in the afterlife?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
What would you gain if you read the book and do nothing?
Muslim people should do what is written in the book in the best way.
And I am sure 100% you did not read the holy Quran.
Gypsy...i bet they are...being taught in a book that God's love is conditional...that if you did not convert to their faith, you will be judged by God to be Infidel and will be thrown into the fiery hell(correct me if i'm wrong)...Who among the fathers here are willing to see their children suffer? Everything written about God punishing us in the afterlife is a complete BULLS#17! If a father can forgive his children's wrongdoing, no matter how big it is, what more God? You don't need religion to be closer to God...practice the act of charity. What would you gain if you read the book and do nothing? Do you think God will commend you because you've memorized the book, verse by verse? Simple rule to follow...Love one another as you have loved yourself and Do not do unto others what you don't want others do unto you.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
khalid...i'm not rude...you refer to me as rude because you've given a wrong answer to a question where a young believer could've answered correctly? as the_rain used to say, "people tend to run away when they become answerless", and you have no answer that's why you don't want to answer my "rude" comments. You are the FIRST believer i've met to tell me that the book you believed in was written after the prophet's death! hahahaha...no one can beat that!!! that's why i suggest you READ and UNDERSTAND what you believe in, otherwise you'll be corrected in front of a Non-believer, and that's too shameful to handle.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Ignorance is bliss. So anyone who believes this stuff must be very happy people.
The Rain, the slight curvature of the space-time continuum is distorted which leads us to the assumption that a mass is present. We do not know what mass is, we only know what it does: it distorts otherwise slightly curved time-space lines. That distortion is sometimes called gravitational force (or gravity) and is everywhere in the universe. It is impossible to find a spot in the whole universe which is not affected by this distortion. Therefore there is not a single point "outside" a gravitational field. The only possibility would be outside the universe, but this again is impossible, because the universe is all there is.
Not answering the rude people is the best answer that they can receive.
khalid...if u are a firm believer of your religion, u dont need to be corrected on small info such as that. Imagine...a believer who dont know the existence what he believed. You made me laugh! Study more before engaging into discussions because u r making a fool out of urself.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
My friend corrected the information by saying it is written by the friend of our prophet Mohammed.
The Quran comes to our prophet from God by a process called wahy.
Then the prophet announce it and some write down and some learn it by heart.
letting go of a discussion doesn't mean i don't have any answer. I just dont want to deal wih people who can't speak for themselves, instead us the idea of other people. If you know what ur talking about, explain it inur own words. Your friend has proven himself to be ignorant when he said that ur book was written after ur prophet died. What does it prove? A believer who don't even know the history of his belief? And he will reclaim his status of knowing he topic by posting other people's idea?
My question wasn't answered by any of you. Why would i post another question?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
I got halfway and then gave up on the copy & paste post. However I did get to the bit where it said, find anything in the Quran that is a mistake. I will name 2 things.
Adam and Eve were the first 2 people on Earth. And Adam was created from Clay.
Evolution is a fact. All the steps leading up to modern day humans is not known, which is why it is still considered a theory. However, humans did evolve and do still evolve. But religious people refuse to acknowledge it as fact because then their scriptures would be wrong. It's like they ask someone to prove them wrong, and then ignore the proof because it goes against their beliefs.
MD....U said "outside gravitational field" is simply impossible....is it what u just think or u hav some proofs...
people tend to run away when they become answerless...ur "good nite" seems equivalent to that...
secondly,its not possible for the limited human mind to hav full knowledge of all the specialities say maths,physics and medicine....etc...thats why evidences from people specializing in their respective fields and authentic sources can be "cut" and "pasted" for ur ease....c'mon apprecitae him rather than telling him ignorant....thirdly hav u ever tried to read and understand quran...if not than how can u say its written by a man and not Allah...u never know whats inside a closed room unless u go there....so go through it and let us know the specific point u think is man-written(till now u are just firing in the air)....
Wow...it is...LONG. If you said earlier that this is about cutting and pasting other people's idea, i could've done it earlier. I won't argue with you coz you are ignorant about your belief, that's why you are using the cut and paste feature of your computer. Good night!
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Can someone explain to me why God does not speak to us now or give us signs? I would guess that he cares about humanity and I would think that he would want to guide us in an obvious way.
Our prophet Mohamed did not know how to read or write and it was on purpose because if he was able to read and write then the non believers would have said he is magician.
You can read this
Calling the Qur'an amazing is not something done only by Muslims, who have an appreciation for the book and who are pleased with it; it has been labeled amazing by non-Muslims as well. In fact, even people who hate Islam very much have still called it amazing.
One thing which surprises non-Muslims who are examining the book very closely is that the Qur'an does not appear to them to be what they expected. What they assume is that they have an old book which came fourteen centuries ago from the Arabian desert; and they expect that the book should look something like that - an old book from the desert. And then they find out that it does not resemble what they expected at all. Additionally, one of the first things that some people assume is that because it is an old book which comes from the desert, it should talk about the desert. Well the Qur'an does talk about the desert - some of its imagery describes the desert; but it also talks about the sea - what it's like to be in a storm on the sea.
Some years ago, the story came to us in Toronto about a man who was in the merchant marine and made his living on the sea. A Muslim gave him a translation of the Qur'an to read. The merchant marine knew nothing about the history of Islam but was interested in reading the Qur'an. When he finished reading it, he brought it back to the Muslim and asked, "This Muhammed, was he a sailor?" He was impressed at how accurately the Qur'an describes a storm on a sea. When he was told, "No as a matter of fact, Muhammed lived in the desert," that was enough for him. He embraced Islam on the spot. He was so impressed with the Qur'an's description because he had been in a storm on the sea, and he knew that whoever had written that description had also been in a storm on the sea. The description of "a wave, over it a wave, over it clouds" was not what someone imagining a storm on a sea to be like would have written; rather, it was written by someone who knew what a storm on the sea was like. This is one example of how the Qur'an is not tied to a certain place and time. Certainly, the scientific ideas expressed in it also do not seem to originate from the desert fourteen centuries ago.
Many centuries before the onset of Muhammed's prophethood, there was a well-known theory of atomism advanced by the Greek philosopher, Democritus. He and the people who came after him assumed that matter consists of tiny, indestructible, indivisible particles called atoms. The Arabs too, used to deal in the same concept; in fact, the Arabic word dharrah commonly referred to the smallest particle known to man. Now, modern science has discovered that this smallest unit of matter (i.e., the atom, which has all of the same properties as its element) can be split into its component parts. This is a new idea, a development of the last century; yet, interestingly enough, this information had already been documented in the Qur'an which states:
" He [i.e., Allah] is aware of an atom's weight in the heavens and on the earth and even anything smaller than that..."
Undoubtedly, fourteen centuries ago that statement would have looked unusual, even to an Arab. For him, the dharrah was the smallest thing there was. Indeed, this is proof, that the Qur'an is not outdated.
Another example of what one might expect to find in an "old book" that touches upon the subject of health or medicine is outdated remedies or cures. Various historical sources state that the Prophet gave some advice about health and hygiene, yet most of these pieces of advice are not contained in the Qur'an. At first glance, to the non-Muslims this appears to be a negligent omission. They cannot understand why Allah would not "include" such helpful information in the Qur'an. Some Muslims attempt to explain this absence with the following argument: "Although the Prophet's advice was sound and applicable to the time in which he lived, Allah, in His infinite wisdom, knew that there would come later medical and scientific advances which would make the Prophet's advice appear outdated. When later discoveries occurred, people might say that such information contradicted that which the Prophet had given. Thus, since Allah would never allow any opportunity for the non-Muslims to claim that the Qur'an contradicts itself or the teachings of the Prophet, He only included in the Qur'an information and examples which could stand the test of time."
However, when one examines the true realities of the Qur'an in terms of its existence as a divine revelation, the entire matter is quickly brought into its proper perspective, and the error in such argumentation becomes clear and understandable. It must be understood that the Qur'an is a divine revelation, and as such, all information in it is of divine origin. Allah revealed the Qur'an from Himself. It is the words of Allah, which existed before creation, and thus nothing can be added, subtracted or altered. In essence, the Qur'an existed and was complete before the creation of Prophet Muhammed, so it could not possibly contain any of the Prophet's own words or advice. An inclusion of such information would clearly contradict the purpose for which the Qur'an exists, compromise its authority and render it inauthentic as a divine revelation.
Consequently, there was no "home remedies" in the Qur'an which one could claim to be outdated; nor does it contain any man's view about what is beneficial to health, what food is best to eat, or what will cure this or that disease. In fact, the Qur'an only mentions one item dealing with medical treatment, and it is not in dispute by anyone. It states that in honey there is healing. And certainly, I do not think that there is anyone who will argue with that!
If one assumes that the Qur'an is the product of a man's mind, then one would expect it to reflect some of what was going on in the mind of the man who "composed" it. In fact, certain encyclopedias and various books clam that the Qur'an was the product of hallucinations that Muhammed underwent. If these claims are true - if it indeed originated from some psychological problems in Muhammed's mind - then evidence of this would be apparent in the Qur'an. Is there such evidence? In order to determine whether or not there is, one must first identify what things would have been going on in his mind at that time and then search for these thoughts and reflections in the Qur'an.
It is common knowledge that Muhammed had a very difficult life. All of his daughters died before him except one, and he had a wife of several years who was dear and important to him, who not only proceeded him in death at a very critical period of his life. As a matter of fact, she must have been quite a woman because when the first revelation came to him, he ran home to her afraid. Certainly, even today one would have a hard time trying to find an Arab who would tell you, "I was so afraid that I ran home to my wife." They just aren't that way. Yet Muhammed felt comfortable enough with his wife to be able to do that. That's how influential and strong woman she was. Although these examples are only a few of the subjects that would have been on Muhammed's mind, they are sufficient in intensity to prove my point. The Qur'an does not mention any of these things - not the death of his children, not the death of his beloved companion and wife, not his fear of the initial revelations, which he so beautifully shared with his wife - nothing; yet, these topics must have hurt him, bothered him, and caused him pain and grief during periods of his psychological reflections, then these subjects, as well as others, would be prevalent or at least mentioned throughout.
A truly scientific approach to the Qur'an is possible because the Qur'an offers something that is not offered by other religious scriptures, in particular, and other religions, in general. It is what scientists demand. Today there are many people who have ideas and theories about how the universe works. These people are all over the place, but the scientific community does not even bother to listen to them. This is because within the last century the scientific community has demanded a test of falsification. They say, "If you have theory, do not bother us with it unless you bring with that theory a way for us to prove whether you are wrong or not."
Such a test was exactly why the scientific community listened to Einstein towards the beginning of the century. He came with a new theory and said, "I believe the universe works like this; and here are three ways to prove whether I am wrong!". So the scientific community subjected his theory to the tests, and within six years it passed all three. Of course, this does not prove that he was great, but it proves that he deserved to be listened to because he said, "This is my idea; and if you want to try to prove me wrong, do this or try that." This is exactly what the Qur'an has - falsification tests. Some are old (in that they have already been proven true), and some still exist today. Basically it states, "If this book is not what it claims to be, then all you have to do is this or this or this to prove that it is false." Of course, in 1400 years no one has been able to do "This or this or this, " and thus it is still considered true and authentic. I suggest to you that the next time you get into dispute with someone about Islam and he claims that he has the truth and that you are in darkness, you leave all other arguments at first and make this suggestion. Ask him, "Is there any falsification test in your religion? Is there anything in your religion that would prove you are wrong if I could prove to you that it exists - anything?" Well, I can promise right now that people will not have anything - no test, no proof, nothing! This is because they do not carry around the idea that they should not only present what they believe but should also offer others a chance to prove they're wrong. However, Islam does that. A perfect example of how Islam provides man with a chance to verify it authenticity and "prove it wrong" occurs in the 4th chapter. And quiet honestly, I was surprised when I first discovered this challenge. It states:
"Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."
This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim. Basically, it invites him to find a mistake. As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with man's personality. One doesn't take an exam in school after finishing the exam, write a note to the instructor at the end saying, "This exam is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. Find one if you can!". One just doesn't do that. The teacher would not sleep until he found a mistake! And yet this is the way the Qur'an approaches people. Another interesting attitude that exists in the Qur'an repeatedly deals with its advice to the reader. The Qur'an informs that reader about different facts and then gives the advice: "If you want to know more about this or that, or if you doubt what is said, then you should ask those who have knowledge." This too is a surprising attitude. It is not usual to have a book that comes from someone without training in geography, botany, biology, etc., who discusses these subjects and then advises the reader to ask men of knowledge if he doubts anything.
Yet in every age there have been Muslims who have followed the advice of the Qur'an and made surprising discoveries. If one looks to the works of Muslim scientists if many centuries ago, one will find them full of quotations from the Qur'an. These works state that they did research in such a place, looking for something. And they affirm that the reason they looked in such and such a place was that the Qur'an pointed them in that direction. For example, the Qur'an mentions man's origin and then tells the reader, "Research it!" It gives the reader a hint where to look and then states that one should find out more about it. This is the kind of thing that Muslims today largely seem to overlook - but not always, as illustrated in the following example. A few years ago, a group of men in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia collected all if the verses in the Qur'an which discuss embryology - the growth of the human being in the womb. They said, "Here is what the Qur'an says. Is it the truth?" In essence, they took the advice of the Qur'an: "Ask the men who know." They chose, as it happened, a non-Muslim who is a professor of embryology at the University of Toronto. His name is Keith Moore, and he is the author of textbooks on embryology - a world expert on the subject. They invited him to Riyadh and said, "This is what the Qur'an says about your subject. Is it true? What can you tell us?" While he was in Riyadh, they gave him all of the help that he needed in translation and all of the cooperation for which he asked. And he was so surprised at what he found that he changed his textbooks. In fact, in the second edition of one of his books, called Before we are born... in the second edition about the history of embryology, he included some material that was not in the first edition because of what he found in the Qur'an. Truly this illustrates that the Qur'an was ahead of its time and that those who believe in the Qur'an know what other people do not know.
I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Keith Moore for a television presentation, and we talked a great deal about this - it was illustrated by slides and so on. He mentioned that some of the things that the Qur'an states about the growth of the human being were not known until thirty years ago. In fact, he said that one item in particular - the Qur'an's description of the human being as a "leech-like clot" ('alaqah) at one stage - was new to him; but when he checked on it, he found that it was true, and so he added it to his book. He said, "I never thought of that before," and he went to the zoology department and asked for a picture of a leech. When he found that it looked just like the human embryo, he decided to include both pictures in one of his textbooks. Dr. Moore also wrote a book on clinical embryology, and when he presented this information in Toronto, it caused quite a stir throughout Canada. It was on the front pages of some of the newspapers across Canada, and some of the headlines were quite funny. For instance, one headline read: "SURPRISING THING FOUND IN ANCIENT BOOK!"! It seems obvious from this example that people do not clearly understand what it is all about. As a matter of fact, one newspaper reporter asked Professor Moore, "Don't you think That maybe the Arabs might have known about these things - the description of the embryo, its appearance and how it changes and grows? Maybe there were not scientists, but maybe they did something crude dissections on their own - carved up people and examined these things."
The professor immediately pointed out to him that he [i.e., the reporter] had missed a very important point - all of the slides of the embryo that had been shown and had been projected in the film had come from pictures taken through a microscope. He said, "It does not matter if someone had tried to discover embryology fourteen centuries ago, they could not have seen it!". All of the descriptions in the Qur'an of the appearance of the embryo are of the item when it is still too small to see with the eye; therefore, one needs a microscope to see it. Since such a device had only been around for little more than two hundred years, Dr. Moore taunted, "Maybe fourteen centuries ago someone secretly had a microscope and did this research, making no mistakes anywhere. Then he somehow taught Muhammad and convinced him to put this information in his book. Then he destroyed his equipment and kept it a secret forever. Do you believe that? You really should not unless you bring some proof because it is such a ridiculous theory." In fact, when he was asked "How do you explain this information in the Qur'an?" Dr. Moore's reply was, "It could only have been divinely revealed."!
Although the aforementioned example of man researching information contained in the Qur'an deals with a non-Muslim, it is still valid because he is one of those who is knowledgeable in the subject being researched. Had some layman claimed that what the Qur'an says about embryology is true, then one would not necessarily have to accept his word. However, because of the high position, respect, and esteem man gives scholars, one naturally assumes that if they research a subject and arrive at a conclusion based on that research, then the conclusion is valid. One of Professor Moore's colleagues, Marshall Johnson, deals extensively with geology at the University of Toronto.
He became very interested in the fact that the Qur'an's statements about embryology are accurate, and so he asked Muslims to collect everything contained in the Qur'an which deals with his specialty. Again people were very surprised at the findings. Since there are a vast number subjects discussed in the Qur'an, it would certainly require a large amount of time to exhaust each subject. It suffices for the purpose of this discussion to state that the Qur'an makes very clear and concise statements about various subjects while simultaneously advising the reader to verify the authenticity of these statements with research by scholars in those subjects. And as illustrated by the Qur'an has clearly emerged authentic. Undoubtedly, there is an attitude in the Qur'an which is not found anywhere else. It is interesting how when the Qur'an provides information, it often tells the reader, "You did not know this before." Indeed, there is no scripture that exists which makes that claim. All of the other ancient writings and scriptures that people have, do give a lot of information, but they always state where the information came from.
For example, when the Bible discusses ancient history, it states that this king lived here, this one fought in a certain battle, another one had so may sons, etc. Yet it always stipulates that if you want more information, then you should read the book of so and so because that is where the information came from. In contrast to this concept, the Qur'an provides the reader with information and states that this information is something new. Of course, there always exists the advice to research the information provided and verify its authenticity. It is interesting that such a concept was never challenged by non-Muslims fourteen centuries ago. Indeed, the Makkans who hated the Muslims, and time and time again they heard such revelations claiming to bring new information; yet, they never spoke up and said, "This is not new. We know where Muhammad got this information. We learned this at school."
They could never challenge its authenticity because it really was new! In concurrence with the advice given in the Qur'an to research information (even if it is new), when 'Umar was caliph, he chose a group of men and sent them to find the wall of Dhul-Qarnayn. Before the Qur'anic revelation, the Arabs had never heard of such a wall, but because the Qur'an described it, they were able to discover it. As a matter of fact, it is now located in what is called Durbend in the Soviet Union. It must be stressed here that the Qur'an is accurate about many, many things, but accuracy does not necessarily mean that a book is a divine revelation. In fact, accuracy is only one of the criteria for divine revelations.
For instance, the telephone book is accurate, but that does not mean that it is divinely revealed. The real problem lies in that one must establish some proof of the source the Qur'an's information. The emphasis is on the reader. One cannot simply deny the Qur'an's authenticity without sufficient proof. If, indeed, one finds a mistake, then he has the right to disqualify it. This is exactly what the Qur'an encourages. Once a man came up to me after a lecture I delivered in South Africa. He was very angry about what I had said, and so he claimed, "I am going to go home tonight and find a mistake in the Qur'an." Of course, I said, "Congratulations. That is the most intelligent thing that you have said." Certainly, this is the approach Muslims need to take with those who doubt the Qur'an's authenticity, because the Qur'an itself offers the same challenge. An inevitably, after accepting it's challenge and discovering that it is true, these people will come to believe it because they could not disqualify it. In essence, the Qur'an earns their respect because they themselves have had to verify its authenticity. An essential fact that cannot be reiterated enough concerning the authenticity of the Qur'an is that one's inability to explain a phenomenon himself does not require his acceptance of the phenomenon's existence or another person's explanation of it.
Specifically, just because one cannot explain something does not mean that one has to accept someone else's explanation. However, the person's refusal of other explanations reverts the burden of proof back on himself to find a feasible answer. This general theory applies to numerous concepts in life, but fits most wonderfully with the Qur'anic challenge, for it creates a difficulty for one who says, "I do not believe it." At the onset of refusal one immediately has an obligation to find an explanation himself if he feels others' answers are inadequate. In fact, in one particular Qur'anic verse which I have always seen mistranslated into English, Allah mentions a man who heard the truth explained to him. It states that he was derelict in his duty because after he heard the information, he left without checking the verity of what he had heard. In other words, one is guilty if he hears something and does not research it and check to see whether it is true. One is supposed to process all information and decide what is garbage to be thrown out and what is worthwhile information to be kept and benefited from at a later date. One cannot just let it rattle around in his head. It must be put in the proper categories and approached from that point of view. For example, if the information is still speculatory, then one must discern whether it's closer to being true or false. But if all of the facts have been presented, then one must decide absolutely between these two options. And even if one is not positive about the authenticity of the information, he is still required to process all of the information and make the admission that he just does not know for sure. Although this last point appears to be futile, in actuality, it is beneficial to the arrival at a positive conclusion at a later time in that it forces the person to at least recognize, research and review the facts. This familiarity with the information will give the person "the edge" when future discoveries are made and additional information is presented. The important thing is that one deals with the facts and does not simply discard them out of empathy and disinterest.
The real certainty about the truthfulness of the Qur'an is evident in the confidence which is prevalent throughout it; and this confidence comes from a different approach - "Exhausting the Alternatives." In essence, the Qur'an states, "This book is a divine revelation; if you do not believe that, then what is it?" In other words, the reader is challenged to come up with some other explanation. Here is a book made of paper and ink. Where did it come from? It says it is a divine revelation; if it is not, then what is its source? The interesting fact is that no one has with an explanation that works. In fact, all alternatives have bee exhausted. As has been well established by non-Muslims, these alternatives basically are reduces to two mutually exclusive schools of thought, insisting on one or the other. On one hand, there exists a large group of people who have researched the Qur'an for hundreds of years and who claim, "One thing we know for sure - that man, Muhammad, thought he was a prophet. He was crazy!" They are convinced that Muhammad (SAW) was fooled somehow. Then on the other hand, there is another group which alleges, "Because of this evidence, one thing we know for sure is that that man, Muhammad, was a liar!" Ironically, these two groups never seem to get together without contradicting. In fact, many references on Islam usually claim both theories. They start out by saying that Muhammad (SAW) was crazy and then end by saying that he was a liar. They never seem to realize that he could not have been both!
For example, if one is deluded and really thinks that he is a prophet, then he does not sit up late at night planning, "How will I fool the people tomorrow so that they think I am a prophet?" He truly believes that he is a prophet, and he trusts that the answer will be given to him by revelation. As a matter of fact, a great deal of the Qur'an came in answer to questions. Someone would ask Muhammad (SAW) a question, and the revelation would come with the answer to it. Certainly, if one is crazy and believes that an angel put words in his ear, then when someone asks him a question, he thinks that the angel will give him the answer. Because he is crazy, he really thinks that. He does not tell someone to wait a short while and then run to his friends and ask them, "Does anyone know the answer?" This type of behavior is characteristic of one who does not believe that he is a prophet. What the non-Muslims refuse to accept is that you cannot have it both ways. One can be deluded, or he can be a liar. He can be either one or neither, but he certainly cannot be both! The emphasis is on the fact that they are unquestionably mutually exclusive personal traits.
The following scenario is a good example of the kind of circle that non-Muslims go around in constantly. If you ask one of them, "What is the origin of the Qur'an?" He tells you that it originated from the mind of a man who was crazy. Then you ask him, "If it came from his head, then where did he get the information contained in it? Certainly the Qur'an mentions many things with which the Arabs were not familiar." So in order to explain the fact which you bring him, he changes his position and says, "Well, maybe he was not crazy. Maybe some foreigner brought him the information. So he lied and told people that he was a prophet." At this point then you have to ask him, "If Muhammad was a liar, then where did he get his confidence? Why did he behave as though he really thought he was a prophet?" Finally backed into a corner, like a cat he quickly lashes out with the first response that comes to his mind. Forgetting that he has already exhausted that possibility, he claims, "Well, maybe he wasn't a liar. He was probably crazy and really thought that he was a prophet." And thus he begins the futile circle again.
As has already been mentioned, there is much information contained in the Qur'an whose source cannot be attributed to anyone other than Allah. For example, who told Muhammad about the wall of Dhul-Qarnayn - a place hundreds of miles to the north? Who told him about embryology? When people assemble facts such as these, if they are not willing to attribute their existence to a divine source, they automatically resort to the assumption someone brought Muhammad the information and that he used it to fool the people. However, this theory can easily be disproved with one simple question: "If Muhammad was a liar, where did he get his confidence? Why did he tell some people out right to their face what others could never say?" Such confidence depends completely upon being convinced that one has a true divine revelation. For example, the Prophet (SAW) had an uncle by the name of Abu Lahab. This man hated Islam to such an extent that he used to follow the Prophet around in order to discredit him. If Abu Lahab saw the Prophet (SAW) speaking to a stranger, he would wait until they parted and then would go to the stranger and ask him, "What did he tell you? Did he say, 'Black.'? Well, it's white. Did he say, 'Morning.'? Well, it's night." He faithfully said the exact opposite of whatever he heard Muhammad (SAW) and the Muslims say. However, about ten years before Abu Lahab died, a little chapter in the Qur'an was revealed to him. It distinctly stated that he would go to the Fire (i.e., Hell). In other words, it affirmed that he would never become a Muslim and would therefore be condemned forever. For ten years all Abu Lahab had to do was say, "I heard that it has been revealed to Muhammad that I will never change - that I will never become a Muslim and will enter the Hellfire. Well I want to become a Muslim now. How do you like that? What do you think of your divine revelation now?" But he never did that. And yet, that is exactly the kind of behavior one would have expected from him since he always sought to contradict Islam. In essence, Muhammad (SAW) said, "You hate me and you want to finish me? Here, say these words, and I am finished. Come on, say them!" But Abu Lahab never said them. Ten years! And in all that time he never accepted Islam or even became sympathetic to the Islamic cause. How could Muhammad possibly have known for sure that Abu Lahab would fulfill the Qur'anic revelation if he (i.e., Muhammad) was not truly the messenger of Allah? How could he possibly have been so confident as to give someone 10 years to discredit his claim of prophethood? The only answer is that he was Allah's messenger; for in order to put forth suck a risky challenge, one has to be entirely convinced that he has a divine revelation.
Another example of the confidence which Muhammad (SAW) had in his own prophethood and consequently in the divine protection of himself and his message is when he left Makkah and hid in a cave with Abu Bakr during their emigration to Madeenah. The two clearly saw people coming to kill them, and Abu Bakr was afraid. Certainly, if Muhammad (SAW) was a liar, a forger and one who was trying to fool the people into believing that he was a prophet, one would have expected him to say in such a circumstance to his friend, "Hey, Abu Bakr, see if you can find a back way out of this cave." Or "Squat down in that corner over there and keep quiet." Yet, in fact, what he said to Abu Bakr clearly illustrated his confidence. He told him, "Relax! Allah is with us, and Allah will save us!"
Now, if one knows that he is fooling the people, where does one get this kind of attitude? In fact, such a frame of mind is not characteristic of a liar or a forger at all. So, as has been previously mentioned, the non-Muslims go around and around in a circle, searching for a way out - some way to explain the findings in the Qur'an without attributing them to their proper source. On one hand, they tell you on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, "The man was a liar," and on the other hand, on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday they tell you, "He was crazy." What they refuse to accept is that one cannot have it both ways; yet they refuse to accept is that one cannot have it both ways; yet they need both excuses to explain the information in the Qur'an.
About seven years ago, I had a minister over to my home. In the particular room which we were sitting there was a Qur'an on the table, face down, and so the minister was not aware of which book it was. In the midst of a discussion, I pointed to the Qur'an and said, "I have confidence in that book." Looking at the Qur'an but not knowing which book it was , he replied, "Well, I tell you, if that book is not the Bible, it was written by a man!" In response to his statement, I said, "Let me tell you something about what is in that book." And in just three to four minutes I related to him a few things contained in the Qur'an. After just those three or four minutes, he completely changed his position and declared, "You are right. A man did not write that book. The Devil wrote it!" Indeed, possessing such an attitude is very unfortunate - for many reasons. For one thing, it is a very quick and cheap excuse. It is an instant exit out of an uncomfortable situation. As a matter of fact, there is a famous story in the Bible that mentions how one day some of the Jews were witnesses when Jesus raised a man from the dead. The man had been dead for four days, and when Jesus arrived, he simply said, "Get up!" and the man arose and walked away. At such a sight, some of the Jews who were watching said disbelievingly, "This is the Devil. The Devil helped him!" Now this story is rehearsed often in churches all over the world, and people cry big tears over it, saying, "Oh, if I had been there, I would not have been as stupid as the Jews!" Yet ironically, these people do exactly what the Jews did when in just three minutes you show them only a small part of the Qur'an and all they can say is, "Oh, the Devil did it. The devil wrote that book!". Because they are truly backed into a corner and have no other viable answer, they resort to the quickest and cheapest excuse available. Another Example of people's use of this weak stance can be found in the Makkans' explanation of the source of Muhammad's message. They used to say, "The devils bring Muhammad that Qur'an!" But just as with every other suggestion made, the Qur'an gives the answer. One verse in particular states:
"And they say, 'Surely he is possessed [by jinn], 'but it [i.e., the Qur'an] is not except a reminder to the worlds."
Thus it gives an argument in reply to such a theory. In fact, there are many arguments in the Qur'an in reply to the suggestion that devils brought Muhammad (SAW) his message. For example, in the 26th chapter Allah clearly affirms:
"No evil ones have brought it [i.e., this revelation] down. It would neither be fitting for them, nor would they be able. Indeed they have been removed far from hearing."
And in another place in the Qur'an, Allah instructs us:
"So when you recite the Qur'an seek refuge in Allah from Shaytaan, the rejected."
Now is this how Satan writes a book? He tells one, "Before you read my book, ask God to save you from me."? This is very, very tricky. Indeed, a man could write something like this, but would Satan do this? Many people clearly illustrate that they cannot come to one conclusion on this subject. On one hand, they claim that Satan would not do such a thing and that even if he could, God would not allow him to; yet, on the other hand, they also believe that Satan is only that much less than God. In essence they allege that the Devil can probably do whatever God can do. And as a result, when they look at the Qur'an, even as surprised as they are as to how amazing it is, they still insist, "The Devil did this!" Thanks be to Allah, Muslims do not have that attitude. Although Satan may have some abilities, they are a long way separated from the abilities of Allah. And no Muslim is a Muslim unless he believes that. It is common knowledge even among non-Muslims that the Devil can easily make mistakes, and it would be expected that he would contradict himself if and when he wrote a book. For indeed, the Qur'an states:
"Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."
In conjunction with the excuses that non-Muslims advance in futile attempts to justify unexplainable verses in the Qur'an, there is another attack often rendered which seems to be a combination of the theories that Muhammad (SAW) was crazy and a liar. Basically, these people propose that Muhammad was insane, and as a result of his delusion, he lied to and misled people. There is a name for this in psychology. It is referred to as mythomania. It means simply that one tells lies and then believes them. This is what the non-Muslims say Muhammad (SAW) suffered from. But the only problem with this proposal is that one suffering from mythomania absolutely cannot deal with facts, and yet the whole Qur'an is based entirely upon facts. Everything contained in it can be researched and established as true. Since facts are such a problem for a mythomaniac, when a psychologist tries to treat one suffering from that condition, he continually confronts him with facts. For example, if one is mentally ill and claims, "I am the king of England," a psychologist does not say to him "No you aren't. You are crazy!" He just does not do that. Rather, he confronts him with facts and says, "O.K., you say you are the king of England. So tell me where the queen is today. And where is your prime minister? And where are your guards?" Now, when the man has trouble trying to deal with these questions, he tries to make excuses, saying Uh... the queen... she has gone to her mother's. Uh... the prime minister... well he died." And eventually he is cured because he cannot deal with the facts. If the psychologist continues confronting him with enough facts, finally he faces the reality and says, "I guess I am not the king of England." The Qur'an approaches everyone who reads it in very much the same way a psychologist treats his mythomania patient. There is a verse in the Qur'an which states:
"Oh mankind, there has come to you an admonition [i.e., the Qur'an] from your Lord and a healing for what is in the hearts - and guidance and mercy for the believers."
At first glance, this statement appears vague, but the meaning of this verse is clear when one views it in light of the aforementioned example. Basically, one is healed of his delusions by reading the Qur'an. In essence, it is therapy. It literally cures deluded people by confronting them with facts. A prevalent attitude throughout the Qur'an is one which says, "Oh mankind, you say such and such about this; but what about such and such? How can you say this when you know that?" And so forth. It forces one to consider what is relevant and what matters while simultaneously healing one of the delusions that the facts presented to mankind by Allah can easily be explained away with flimsy theories and excuses. It is this very sort of thing - confronting people with facts - that had captured the attention of many non-Muslims. In fact, there exists a very interesting reference concerning this subject in the New Catholic Encyclopedia.
In an article under the subject of the Qur'an, the Catholic Church states, "Over the centuries, many theories have been offered as to the origin of the Qur'an... Today no sensible man accepts any of these theories."!! Now here is the age-old Catholic Church, which has been around for so many centuries, denying these futile attempts to explain away the Qur'an. Indeed, the Qur'an is a problem for the Catholic Church. It states that it is revelation, so they study it. Certainly, they would love to find proof that it is not, but they cannot. They cannot find a viable explanation. But at least they are honest in their research and do not accept the first unsubstantiated interpretation which comes along. The Church states that in fourteen centuries it has not yet been presented a sensible explanation. At least it admits that the Qur'an is not an easy subject to dismiss. Certainly, other people are much less honest. They quickly say, "Oh, the Qur'an came from here. The Qur'an came from there." And they do not even examine the credibility of what they are stating most of the time. Of course, such a statement by the Catholic Church leaves the everyday Christian in some difficulty. It just may be that he has his own ideas as to the origin of the Qur'an, but as a single member of the Church, he cannot really act upon his own theory. Such an action would be contrary to the obedience, allegiance and loyalty which the Church demands. By virtue of his membership, he must accept what the Catholic Church declares without question and establish its teachings as part of his everyday routine. So, in essence, if the Catholic Church as a whole is saying, "Do not listen to these unconfirmed reports about the Qur'an," then what can be said about the Islamic point of view? Even non-Muslims are admitting that there is something to the Qur'an - something that has to be acknowledged - then why are people so stubborn and defensive and hostile when Muslims advance the very same theory? This is certainly something for those with mind a to contemplate - something to ponder for those of understanding!
Recently, the leading intellectual in the Catholic Church - a man by the name of Hans - studied the Qur'an and gave his opinion of what he had read. This man has been around for some time, and he is highly respected in the Catholic Church, and after careful scrutiny, he reported his findings, concluding, "God has spoken to man through the man, Muhammad." Again this is a conclusion arrived at by a non-Muslim source - the very leading intellectual of the Catholic Church himself! I do not think that the Pope agrees with him, but nonetheless, the opinion of such a noted, repute public figure must carry some weight in defense of the Muslim position. He must be applauded for facing the reality that the Qur'an is not something which can be easily pushed aside and that, in fact God is the source of these words. As is evident from the aforementioned information, all of the possibilities have been exhausted, so the chance of finding another possibility of dismissing the Qur'an is nonexistent. For if the book is not a revelation, then it is a deception; and if it is a deception, one must ask, "What is its origin" And where does it deceive us?" Indeed, the true answers to these questions shed light on the Qur'an's authenticity and silence the bitter unsubstantiated claims of the unbelievers. Certainly, if people are going to insist that the Qur'an is a deception, then they must bring forth evidence to support such a claim. The burden of proof is on them, not us! One is never supposed to advance a theory without sufficient corroborating facts; so I say to them, "Show me one deception! Show me where the Qur'an deceives me! Show me, otherwise, don't say that it is a deception!" An interesting characteristic of the Qur'an is how it deals with surprising phenomena which relate not only to the past but to modern times as well. In essence, the Qur'an is not and old problem. It is still a problem even today - a problem to the non-Muslims that is. For everyday, every week, every year brings more and more evidence that the Qur'an is a force to be contended with - that its authenticity is no longer to be challenged! For example, one verse in the Qur'an reads;
"Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then We clove them asunder, and made from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?"
Ironically, this very information is exactly what they awarded the 1973 Noble Prize for - to a couple of unbelievers. The Qur'an reveals the origin of the universe - how it began from one piece - and mankind continues to verify this revelation, even up to now. Additionally, the fact that all life originated from water would not have been an easy thing to convince people of fourteen centuries ago. Indeed, if 1400 years ago you had stood in the desert and told someone, "All of this, you see (pointing to yourself), is made up of mostly water," no one would have believed you. Proof of that was not available until the invention of the microscope. They had to wait to find out that cytoplasm, the basic substance of the cell, is made-up of 80% water. Nonetheless, the evidence did come, and once again the Qur'an stood the test of time. In reference to the falsification tests mentioned earlier, it is interesting to note that they, too, relate to both the past and the present. Some of them were used as illustrations of Allah's omnipotence and knowledge, while others continue to stand as challenges to the present day. An example of the former is the statement made in the Qur'an about Abu Lahab. It clearly illustrates that Allah, the Knower of the Unseen, knew that Abu Lahab would never change his ways and accept Islam. Thus Allah dictated that he would be condemned to the Hellfire forever. Such a chapter was both an illustration of Allah's divine wisdom and a warning to those who were like Abu Lahab.
An interesting example of the latter type of falsification tests contained in the Qur'an is the verse which mentions the relationship between the Muslims and the Jews. The verse is careful not to narrow its scope to the relationship between individual members of each religion, but rather, it summarizes the relationship between the two groups of people as a whole. In essence, the Qur'an states that the Christians will always treat the Muslims better than the Jews will treat the Muslims. Indeed, the full impact of such a statement can only be felt a~er careful consideration of the real meaning of such a verse. It is true that many Christians and many Jews have become Muslims, but as a whole, the Jewish community is to be viewed as an avid enemy of Islam. Additionally, very few people realize what such an open declaration in the Qur'an invites. In essence, it is an easy chance for the Jews to prove that the Qur'an is false - that it is not a divine revelation. All they have to do is organize themselves, treat the Muslims nicely for a few years and then say, "Now what does your holy book say about who are your best friends in the world - the Jews or the Christians? Look what we Jews have done for you!" That is all they have to do to disprove the Qur'an's authenticity, yet they have not done it in 1400 years. But, as always, the offer still stands open!
All of the examples so far given concerning the various angles from which one can approach the Qur'an have undoubtedly been subjective in nature; however there does exist another angle, among others, which is objective and whose basis is mathematical. It is surprising how authentic the Qur'an becomes when one assembles what might be referred to as a list of good guesses. Mathematically, it can be explained using guessing and prediction examples. For instance, if a person has two choices (i.e., one is right, and one is wrong), and he closes his eyes and makes a choice, then half of the time (i.e., one time out of two) he will be right. Basically, he has a one in two chance, for he could pick the wrong choice, or he could pick the right choice. Now if the same person has two situations like that (i.e., he could be right or wrong about situation number one, and he could be right or wrong about situation number two), and he closes his eyes and guesses, then he will only be right one fourth of the time (i.e., one time out of four). He now has a one in four chance because now there are three ways for him to be wrong and only one way for him to be right. In simple terms, he could make the wrong choice in situation number one and then make the wrong choice in situation number two; OR he could make the wrong choice in situation number one and then make the right choice in situation number two; OR he could make the right choice in situation number one and then make the wrong choice in situation number two; OR he could make the right choice in situation number one and then make the right choice in situation number two. Of course, the (only instance in which he could be totally right is the last scenario where he could guess correctly in both situations. The odds of his guessing completely correctly have become greater because the number of situations for him to guess in have increased; and the mathematical equation representing such a scenario is 1/2 x 1/2 (i.e., one time out of two for the first situation multiplied by one time out of two for the second situation).
Continuing on with the example, if the same person now has three situations in which to make blind guesses, then he will only be right one eighth of the time (i.e., one time out of eight or 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2). Again, the odds of choosing the correct choice in all three situations have decreased his chances of being completely correct to only one time in eight. It must be understood that as the number of situations increase, the chances of being right decrease, for the two phenomena are inversely proportional.
Now applying this example to the situations in the Qur'an, if one draws up a list of all of the subjects about which the Qur'an has made correct statements, it becomes very clear that it is highly unlikely that they were all just correct blind guesses. Indeed, the subjects discussed in the Qur'an are numerous, and thus the odds of someone just making lucky guesses about all of them become practically nil. If there are a million ways for the Qur'an to be wrong, yet each time it is right, then it is unlikely that someone was guessing. The following three examples of subjects about which the Qur'an has made correct statements collectively illustrate how the Qur'an continues to beat the odds.
In the 16th chapter the Qur'an mentions that the female bee leaves its home to gather food.l2 Now, a person might guess on that, saying, "The bee that you see flying around - it could be male, or it could be female. I think I will guess female." Certainly, he has a one in two chance of being right. So it happens that the Qur'an is right. But it also happens that that was not what most people believed at the time when the Qur'an was revealed. Can you tell the difference between a male and a female bee? Well, it takes a specialist to do that, but it has been discovered that the male bee never leaves his home to gather food. However, in Shakespeare's play, Henry the Fourth, some of the characters discuss bees and mention that the bees are soldiers and have a king. That is what people thought in Shakespeare's time - that the bees that one sees flying around are male bees and that they go home and answer to a king. However, that is not true at all. The fact is that they are females, and they answer to a queen. Yet it took modern scientific investigations in the last 300 years to discover that this is the case.
So, back to the list of good guesses, concerning the topic of bees, the Qur'an had a 50/50 chance of being right, and the odds were one in two.
In addition to the subject of bees, the Qur'an also discusses the sun and the manner in which it travels through space. Again, a person can guess on that subject. When the sun moves through space, there are two options: it can travel just as a stone would travel if one threw it, or it can move of its own accord. The Qur'an states the latter - that it moves as a result of its own motion.'3 To do such, the Qur'an uses a form of the word sabaha to describe the sun's movement through space. In order to properly provide the reader with a comprehensive understanding of the implications of this Arabic verb, the following example is given. If a man is in water and the verb sabaha is applied in reference to his movement, it can be understood that he is swimming, moving of his own accord and not as a result of a direct force applied to him. Thus when this verb is used in reference to the sun's movement through space, it in no way implies that the sun is flying uncontrollably through space as a result of being hurled or the like. It simply means that the sun is turning and rotating as it travels. Now, this is what the Qur'an affirms, but was it an easy thing to discover? Can any common man tell that the sun is turning? Only in modern times was the equipment made available to project the image of the sun onto a tabletop so that one could look at it without being blinded. And through this process it was discovered that not only are there three spots on the sun but that these spots move once every 25 days. This movement is referred to as the rotation of the sun around its axis and conclusively proves that, as the Qur'an stated 1400 years ago, the sun does, indeed turn as it travels through space.
And returning once again to the subject of good guess, the odds of guessing correctly about both subjects - the sex of bees and the movement of the sun - are one in four!
Seeing as back fourteen centuries ago people probably did not understand much about time zones, the Quran's statements about this subject are considerably surprising. The concept that one family is having breakfast as the sun comes up while another family is enjoying the brisk night air is truly something to be marveled at, even in modern time. Indeed, fourteen centuries ago, a man could not travel more than thirty miles in one day, and thus it took him literally months to travel from India to Morocco, for example. And probably , when he was having supper in Morocco, he thought to himself, "Back home in India they are having supper right now." This is because he did not realize that, in the process of traveling, he moved across a time zone. Yet, because it is the words of Allah, the All-Knowing, the Qur'an recognizes and acknowledges such a phenomenon. In an interesting verse it states that when history comes to an end and the Day of Judgment arrives, it will all occurring an instant; and this very instant will catch some people in the daytime and some people at night. This clearly illustrates Allah's divine wisdom and His previous knowledge of the existence of time zones, even though such a discovery was non-existent back fourteen centuries ago. Certainly, this phenomenon is not something which is obvious to one's eyes or a result of one's experience, and this fact, in itself, suffices as proof of the Qur'ans authenticity.
Returning one final time to the subject of good guesses for the purpose of the present example, the odds that someone guessed correctly about all three of the aforementioned subjects - the sex of bees, the movement of the sun and the existence of time zones - are one in eight!
Certainly, one could continue on and on with this example, drawing up longer and longer list of good guesses; and of course, the odds would become higher and higher with each increase of subjects about which one could guess. But what no one can deny is the following; the odds that Mohammed an illiterate, guessed correctly about thousands and thousands of subjects, never once making a mistake, are so high that any theory of his authorship of the Qur'an must be completely dismissed - even by the most hostile enemies of Islam!
Indeed, the Qur'an expects this kind of challenge. Undoubtedly, if one said to someone upon entering a foreign land, "I know your father. I have met him," probably the man from that land would doubt the newcomer's word, saying, "You have just come here. How could you know my father?" As a result, he would question him, "Tell me, is my father tall, short, dark, fair? What is he like?" Of course, if the visitor continued answering all of the questions correctly, the skeptic would have no choice but to say, "I guess you do know my father. I don't know how you know him, but I guess you do!" The situation is the same with the Qur'an. It states that it originates from the One who created everything. So everyone has the right to say, "Convince me! If the author of this book really originated life and everything in the heavens and on the earth, then He should know about this, about that, and so on." And inevitably, after researching the Qur'an, everyone will discover the same truths. Additionally, we all know something for sure: we do not all have to be experts to verify what the Qur'an affirms. One's iman (faith) grows as one continues to check and confirm the truths contained in the Qur'an. And one is supposed to do so all of his life.
May God (Allah) guide everyone close to the truth.
Supplement
An engineer at the University of Toronto who was interested in psychology and who had read something on it, conducted researched wrote a thesis on Efficiency of Group Discussions. The purpose of his research was to find out how much people accomplish when they get together to talk in groups of two, three, ten, etc. The graph of his findings: people accomplish most when they talk in groups of two. Of course, this discovery was entirely beyond his expectations, but it is very old advice given in the Qur'an:
Additionally, the 89th chapter of the Qur'an mentions a certain city by the name of 'Iram (a city of pillars), which was not known in ancient history and which was non-existent as far as historians were concerned. However, the December 1978 edition of National Geographic introduced interesting information which mentioned that in 1973, the city of Elba was excavated in Syria. The city was discovered to be 43 centuries old, but that is not the most amazing part. Researchers found in the library of Elba a record of all of the cities with which Elba had done business. Believe or not, there on the list was the name of the city of 'Iram. The people of Elba had done business with the people of 'Iram!
"Say, 'I exhort you to one thing - that you stand for Allah, [assessing the truth] by twos and singly, and then reflect.....' In conclusion I ask you to consider with care the following:
"And they say, 'Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord?' Say, 'Indeed, the signs are with Allah, and I am but a clear warner.' But is sufficient for them that We have sent down to you the Book [i.e. Qur'an] which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in that is mercy and a reminder to people who believe."
source
http://discover.islamway.com/articles.php?article_id=20
Wow...khalid...that was very informative...imagine a mosquito being the reason why i should believe to what was written in the book...and it needs DIVINE INTERVENTION for us to realize it, don't we? God gave us reasoning and intelligence because he wants us to discover ourselves all the things that he provided...why would he need to tell someone long ago about things that will be discovered and studied in the future? As an example of your "conception" theory found in your book, how hard is it to imagine a female person having miscarriage at the early stage of her conception? And if you were there, won't you see what the "baby" look like while inside the womb? God needs to "tell" him that this needs to be written in the book so that others will believe that it came from him? Galileo discovered gravity by observing 2 metal balls being dropped from the leaning tower of Pisa...how hard is it to imagine that same thing happened to your prophet, that he observed it himself and wrote it in the book because that's how observant he is of his surrounding? And people just sensationalized this event without even thinking that this can be observed? Yeah, i agree that science only proved it later, but do you need science to look at the miscarriaged baby? You only need your eyes and reasoning to tell what it looked like...no need for God to tell us WHAT IS OBVIOUS around us.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
It is written that earth looks like sphere and it is not flat.
We do not say it comes from God but God teaches us these things and ask us to learn and build or knowledge.
One sign of the day of judgement is that all science will grapped and no more.
Also what is smaller than atom was mintion in the holy Quran.
Also the weakest house which is the spider house was mintioned in the holy Quran as the weakest house.
Also the bug, God created these bugs and mosquitos, can people make the same size and make them fly.
Today mosqitou are under big research, people say what shall we do with this small mosqiuto, and todays amazing observations are shown on these mosquitos by the scientists, God asked us to think about these mosquitos.
The discovery of the Universe and space is achieved by knowledge, and this is also mintioned in the holy Quran.
MissX...you hit it right! Just like the other posts, where the moon was split in two when the prophet draw his finger on it (if i'm not mistaken...correct me if i'm wrong), and confirmed to be seen by 2 rulers of India. The funny thing with those whö've seen it happen is, the prophet lived during the 6th Century, while the witnesses lived on the 10 and 14th Century. They've seen it when it happened and confirmed to be true...yeah right!
About the "conception" that was only discovered recently, how is it different for the conception of animals? Wouldn't it be possible that while they where preparing for a meal, they accidentally killed a pregnant cow/goat/sheep, and assumed that it was the same as human? Or how about someone from the family had a miscarriage at the early stage of pregnancy, and they saw what it looked like? How far is it from happening, rather than assuming that it was God who taught him those things? And the meeting of river and sea, do you need to be an educated person to realize the end of the river goes to the sea? Does it need to come from God, or you just need to observe your surroundings?
Did he wrote about Law of Gravity? Galileo discovered it, but it was not written to came from God. Newton discovered the Law of Kinetics, but it was not written to came from God. Einstein discovered the law of relativity, but it was not written to came from God. Why all this things that you can see from your surrounding need to be associated to have come from God as a vision?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
The funny thing is. People use the word scientist to try and attribute plausibility to their words. But the fact that they make the statement that it must come from God, means they are not using science to make that statement. They are instead relying on their own beliefs and deceitfully trying to use their credibility in other areas to try and convince. It's just another way that religious people try and preach to the masses.
100. No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.
God gave us the FREEWILL to choose our path...GOD WILL NOT FORCE US TO CHOOSE WHAT HE WANTS...That is the essence of FREEWILL that HE GAVE US. Do you think the SUICIDE BOMBERS, who are BELIEVERS of the same book as yours, DOING THE WILL OF GOD? They chose to kill innocent people, including children, for what, for the WILL OF GOD?
Do you think those who believe in the same book as yours, doing the WILL OF GOD, by abusing their laborers both physically, emotionally and financially?
They are believers like you, but why aren't they doing what was written in your book?
Does that make them MORE RIGHTEOUS than US who do not believe in RELIGION?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
It could be decided already that some people will not believe unless God well and here below I qouted some statements from the holy Quran which I hope will satisfy you:
99. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!
100. No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.
101. Say: "Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth"; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not.
102. Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: "Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you."
103. In the end We deliver Our apostles and those who believe: Thus is it fitting on Our part that We should deliver those who believe!
104. Say: "O ye men! If ye are in doubt as to my religion, (behold!) I worship not what ye worship, other than Allah. But I worship Allah - Who will take your souls (at death): I am commanded to be (in the ranks) of the Believers,
105. "And further (thus): 'set thy face towards religion with true piety, and never in any wise be of the Unbelievers;
106. "'Nor call on any, other than Allah.- Such will neither profit thee nor hurt thee: if thou dost, behold! thou shalt certainly be of those who do wrong.'"
107. If Allah do touch thee with hurt, there is none can remove it but He: if He do design some benefit for thee, there is none can keep back His favour: He causeth it to reach whomsoever of His servants He pleaseth. And He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
for more you can go to the link below:
http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_translation/Quran_translation10.php
But the million dollar question is:
WILL GOD JUDGE YOU BY YOUR BELIEF, OR BY YOUR WAY OF LIFE?
Your book was saying that GOD will ask you if you are a Muslim or not when he judges you...so all those who are non-believers of your religion will be judged and be sent to Hades or Hell, or whatever it was called in other religions? The answer i require is simple. I am not a believer of any religion made by man, but i believe in ONE SUPREME GOD.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
I shared what scientist comments on the facts mentioned in the Quran...read my post above to see what Holy Quran is about.. so some of the scientific facts mentioned in the Quran is revealed to us 1400 yrs ago by Almighty God as signs for men of understanding....so that they ponder over it.
If you dont like it.. ignore it.. as simple as it is..
Why do u have to reply,refute without proofs for ur claims and swing the topic from one to another.
"True religion with authenticity and proofs need not be questioned and scientific facts proven n confirmed by Almighty God need not be questioned as well."
According to the famous physicist and Nobel Prize
winner, Albert Einstein, “Science without religion is
lame. Religion without science is blind.”
Islaam4u
"religions came to make the humanity better in all terms."
Exactly, Tiger.
People are free to choose, religions came to make the humanity better in all terms.
islaam, why are you constantly trying to explain Islam with science? That is sick! One is a religion which cannot be questioned, the other one follows different rules and its essence is to be questioned all the time!
can you have a look at this
www.55a.net
I am sure it might interst you
Many scientists agreed on all the scientific facts of the Quran, you are not agreeing even with one.. Strange behind ur rational.. or is it that you claim u are much more intellgent and knowledgable than them. And its strange u dont know any of the scientists.. Professor KEith Moore book on embroyology is used by most of the Medical Colleges and Universities through out the world... If you still dont knw here some infor about him:
Keith L. Moore is a professor emeritus in the division of anatomy (department of surgery), former Chair of anatomy from 1974 to 1984[1] and associate dean for Basic Medical Sciences (Faculty of Medicine) at the University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. He has also worked at the King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Moreover, he is a founding member of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists (AACA). He was President of the AACA between 1989 and 1991[2]. He is most known for his textbooks on the subjects of anatomy and human embryology.
He has co-written (with professor Arthur F. Dalley II) Clinically Oriented Anatomy, which is the most popular English-language anatomy textbook in the world, used by scientists, doctors, physiotherapists and students worldwide. The book is especially popular because of its 'blue boxes' - passages of text on blue background that relate the classical anatomy to real-world concepts in the diagnosis and treatment of human patients. The book has been translated into multiple languages. He also co-wrote (with professor Anne M. R. Agur) Essential Clinical Anatomy.
The American Association of Clinical Anatomists awarded Dr. Moore with their Honored Member Award (in 1994).[3][4] In 2007, the American Association of Anatomists awarded him with the first Henry Gray/Elsevier Distinguished Educator Award[5].
Now dont say this is from a muslim source and is fake. Its from wikipedia .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_L._Moore
Islaam4u
Kindly Note that the Holy Quran is not the book of science, it is the book which contains signs for the men of understanding,warnings and glad tidings.... and among the signs mentioned are some scientific facts which man discovered recently.
And Quran is the Final revelation of Almighty God for entire humanity with a very important message to worship the one true Almighty God who created the entire Universe and everything in it and do not associate partners with HIm in worship. How can we belittle God who created the Entire vast Universe by associating Him with created things like man,stones,animals .
If Qur'an was written by man, there would have been a lot of contradictions and all the scientific things mentioned in the Quran 1400 years are 100% proved correct. If it was prophecy from any man or guess work it would have never been 100% correct. You can try theory of probability on the scientific facts of the Quran.
"Have they not seriously examined the Qur'an? If it had come form some other source than Allah, they would have found a great deal of contradictions in it" Qur'an 4:82
Also note that Prophet Muhammad was an illiterate.He cannot know all these things during his time without scientific equipements & technology. for eg: the man who never travelled the Ocean, how did he knw that the water which comes from river and mixes the sea , that point there is a barrier between them ,one side taste sweet other salt.
But when the Quran speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of “a forbidding partition” with the barrier. God has said in the Quran:
"He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition. "(Quran, 25:53)
ANother eg: Embroyology, how did Prophet Muhammad without all these technology come to know the stages of the embroyology 1400 yrs ago?
"We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... 1 (Quran, 23:12-14)
ANother eg: Mountains are like pegs
God has said in the Quran:
Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs? (Quran, 78:6-7)
Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground.2 So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word ‘peg,’ since most of a properly set peg is hidden under the surface of the ground. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains having deep roots was introduced only in the latter half of the nineteenth century.
Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth.4 They hinder the shaking of the earth. God has said in the Quran:
And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you... (Quran, 16:15)
In the same way u take any facts from Quran all comes to be true.
NOw still u want to refute and argue, all we want to say u is peace. We just shared the knowledge with you. if you dont want to believe its up to u. Everyone claim to refute but no one can bring proofs. :)
PEace bro..
Islaam4u
The Rain, just one remark: "Outside gravitational fields" simply is impossible. Hence, the whole "proof" is nonsense.
http://www.speed-light.info/relativity_quran.htm#RELATIVITY_QURAN_KORAN_Speed of Light a constant 299792.5 km/s
The Rain...That's how it got me confused...lol.
Are you really a believer, Khalid? Looks like you haven't figured out completely how your book was made, and started correcting other people when you yourself was ignorant of the fact.
Before you start preaching, USE GOOGLE.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Thanks for correcting me.
khalid the tiger....just wanna correct ur wordings...
Qura'an was sent to our Beloved Prophet Mohammad(S.A.W) by Allah ....It was written down during the life time of the Prophet under his own supervision in the same sequence as it is now..This sequence too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah...Afterthe prophet passed away, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur’an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets.
And some people used to write part of it on stone, leaf, leather.
See why Louis Farrakhan joined Islam and know more about him
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Farrakhan
MD...it must've been written on their book...as he mentioned, EVERYTHING is there!
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
"The above famous scientists".
Never heard of any of them!
If it was not written by him and only after his death, then all that is written must've been heard thru hearsays? Because the writer would never have known what happen if it was not being instructed what to write...or if the writer experienced it himself and write on his own accord his experience and what he sees.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
islaam, why don't you solve Einstein's field equation for 10 variables using the Quran. If everything is in it, the solutions are also in it. Now, don't say you can't understand it.
here is a very good web link
http://www.jannah.org/articles/quranwrote.html
It was written after he died god bliss him and have a look at this video
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1821163/holy_quran_top_scientists_comments_on_scientific_miracles/
Is this another of one of those "Moon split in two...confirmed by scientist" kind of thread?
For God's sake...keep it to yourselves! Nostradamus foreseen the existence of warplanes and missiles and wrote it in his book...what made it so different with the one that you are trying to prove?
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Is this another one of those "Moon split in two...confirmed by scientists" just to prove that the book came from God???
For God's sake...keep it to yourselves! The Book was written by MAN, that is a FACT! It is the same as the book written by Nostradamus, who even foreseen his death, and how his body will be discovered by a soldier, how the soldier who discovered his body will die? How can you explain the difference of the "divine being" who told Nostradamus to write his "prophecies" of airplanes and missiles who was never even thought by man during his time?
If the book is not written by Man, then i would believe it to be from God. If it is written by any human, it is the same as all the ordinary books who were made famous by the readers...like Harry Potter!
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
1. Stress tensor is a tensor quantity in physics that describes the density and flux of energy and momentum in spacetime, generalizing the stress tensor of Newtonian physics.
2. NEgative pressure in relation to what?
3. I have heard 2 - 3dimensional space time..
By the way even if it is complicated, why dont u put proofs and evidence that these contradicts with the Holy Quran?? And we would like to learn if you can compare with the truth in the Qur'an. The above famous scientists have done a comparision with the modern scientific discoveries and the truth mentioned in Quran. So if you are truthful, why dont u do these mathematical 'proof's u claim and proove Quran is wrong.. :)
Islaam4u
MD...u tryin to be over smart wid ur "proofs"....if u hav it...jst share it....
What about man magic?
Visit my photo blog @
http://my-photos-album.blogspot.com/
YOU DONT KNOW ME, DONT EVEN TRY !!!
May be... but claim should be with proofs.. its matter whether you really want to understand or not.. belief should come with knowledge, it shouldnt be blind...
Typical for a "woman scientist".
A German woman scientist asked her self question and the question is if Mohammed was not right why should he be protected by God? She thought and after sometime she converted into Islam.
You won't understand the "proofs". It's tensor mathematics and pretty complicated. (Ever heard of stress tensors, negative pressure, 11-dimensional space time continuum, M and P-planes??)
only a deaf,mute and blind can deny all these facts
Could give you hundreds who say the opposite. It's still a matter of belief!