A Question of Culture

Gypsy is 28 ????? :(

Don't wait for me dear... I told you on PMs I cannot say YES... :)..

Ok back to topic...

and if people Think you are a Secretory.....

I wish I could see the look on their faces... when they see Sec is smarter than the Boss.... lol..

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Man created religion ..not GOD... get over it guys...- FS

maturity of a woman of 42.... its a compliment.

lol

be humble

I'm 28 rafsanjani.

gyps, i dont like ... :)

(no offense).... specaillly when you talk bout islam.... :((

be humble

sometimes i really appreciate your way of perceiving things.... sometimes not though !

sometimes you sould wise..... :)

how old are you btw?

lol

be humble

Why, because you think that men don't treat women in the work place like that?

Various ways. I've gotten a LOT of sexual comments, a lot of ignorance and dis-respect.

Various ways. I've gotten a LOT of sexual comments, a lot of ignorance and dis-respect.

LOL, whenever I go to meetings people ALWAYS assume I'm a secretary. :p Sometimes I let them continue thinking that for awhile just to see how they treat me.

"Generally true to a large extent but some companies have broad minded male bosses, even though from developing countries. It's a matter of education and experience / exposure to other cultures, their IQ and abilities to adapt and continuously learn from others."

Agreed. I think however their exposure to other cultures is the one most lacking. No use having the most intelligent guy who is efficient and effective as they come, but who has been brought up to think lowly of women.

"Sorry, Labda. I agree with her. Ask me in person why and I will tell you, if you cannot already guess it. It has absolutely nothing to do with lack of self esteem or having hang ups."

I do not agree. If we are in positions of training, yes. If we are in professions that require us assisting men, yes. But absolutely not if we are in professions where we are qualified, have the necessary experience and are ready to fly solo. Iv had bad and good experiences with both male and female assistants.

"Yes, when I first joined my company, they thought I was either the tea lady or the secretary. Some still do, to their detriment."

hahaha. Yeah when I'd go for meetings clients would ask "Secretary?"...now I know better. I carry my business card everywhere and I make sure they get it right after the handshake :)

It's sad that we have to fight the ignorance of some men. It's even sadder that we have to fight the ignorance of other women as well. No wonder we're still denied full acceptance, with attitudes like this still prevailant.

means I'm very polite, thanks

tell me why?

ROFL...Speed, I wouldn't say that a survey of 61 000 MSNBC readers is convincing proof to support your opinion.

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Gypsy said Of course it is. In order to ... get to these positions women have to be more goal driven and more forceful. Rather then drift there way up the corporate ladder like many men who end up in management positions. "

Err.. not in every case. It depends on your personality. Granted that the goal driven and forceful women get things done but they steamroll over people. However, the ones with proper management skills like the ones Happy2 mentioned, get to the top in a less abrasive manner. Their goals are also not in the direction of climbing the corporate ladder, but rather what's best for the company as a whole, including other employees, not only themselves.

Scarlet said "Speed...wow, you surprise me with your attitude on women...trust me...we don't want to be equal to you guys, that would require a major step DOWN..."

There is another thread where women in Sweden fought to bare their top (bre**ts) in the name of "Equality" with men... why would they or did they step down to be equal to us guys?

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One life to live, live it to the fullest.

wondering earth, "React on it but never question what's wrong with it."

??? total contradiction.

diamond said There's no doubt that Qatar is behind some other countries in terms of women in the workplace...

And I dispute the claim by Qatarilady that most Qatarias are in the workplace...I think statistics would show that most are not in the workplace. There are still many Qatari men who feel it is shameful for 'their women' to work outside the home. It somehow makes them feel inadequate."

- Hmm.. are you sure? Is it because they feel it is shameful for their women to work outside the home or is it actually because they feel that it's better that their wives take care of the family instead of letting the children be brought up by maids? If the men can afford to provide for the family, why would the wives want to work?

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

labda06 said "Is demanding equal opportunities going overboard? Is it unreasonable to demand the same pay and entitlements as a man in the same position?"

- That is fairness. Yes, I agree with you that it is more often than not that women from developing countries are not given equal opportunities but not all companies are like that, thank God!

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

onderingearthl... I do believe in a male-figure leader as they draw more respect (if not fear) in general. Tougher than women, emotionally strong."

- This is not the reason.

"there are issues that we women knew by heart that we can not insists like physical strength and male-superiority complex. Men always feel they have the highest position on earth."

- physical strength, yes but emotional strength - nope. Men are weak in that department. As for male superiority complex - that IS waving a red flag in front of a bull. There's a tendency to take a pin to that overinflated ego...

"With due respect to women like me, sometimes i dont see where equality here. What's really going on is that women's demand sometimes go overboard,unreasonable."

- Because whatever concept that is good, tends to get abused. What GENERALLY shows is humanity's selfishness and wanting to take whatever benefits they can grab, without thinking of other people. NB: I said GENERALLY.

"I have no problem with men's superiority."

- I do. God help the specimen who has that over inflated ego.

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

labda06 said wonderingearth...let men lead and women assist??? What's wrong with you?"

- Sorry, Labda. I agree with her. Ask me in person why and I will tell you, if you cannot already guess it. It has absolutely nothing to do with lack of self esteem or having hang ups.

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

wonderingearthl...there are positions where women could fare better than men. Detail-oriented, women do it well, goal-oriented, leave it to men."

- Nope. Women can do both.

"Furthermore, this is situational - heavy highly technical field work, i do believe men could be more effective and efficient."

- Agreed.

"Strategists? the mix of both effectively leads to effeciency...To tap it all, let men lead and women assist."

- Agreed provided the man is not a granite head who doesn't listen and respect other views. Egocentricity would be waving a red flag in front of a bull and he should prepare to meet his Maker...

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

Sometimes women are promoted just to prove a pro-woman stance. Often the wrong women are picked.

MissX said ...It's like you don't believe me that women are refused jobs and promotions based on their gender."

Erm.. actually, I believe quite a few places in Qatar, including the Govt, are quite supportive of women, encouraging them and promoting the capable ones.

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

be aware that Woman can do like men.. okay.. so make sure to know who's you are talking into!!!!

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" ..mAny aRe cAllEd, but fEw ArE ChOoSen.."

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coz my mother and wife are women... the two persons i love more than myself.....

be humble

QatariLady said MissX ...I'm not saying they're absolutely better. They're just different.

Generally men focus on the big picture while women focus on details. Both are good and equally important. You cannot work out a cutting-edge strategy without smart ppl working on the details. "

Absolutely correct.

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

lol

be humble

Stone Cold said "Well, behind every successful man is a women. Its never the reverse way."

Indeed. Because the man behind the woman will likely want to compete for her time, etc. may even want her to be less successful to feed his ego and eventually, drag her down.

This does not apply to men who are truly confident of themselves, with little hangups, or at least, the ability to self-reflect, be aware and put a lid on his insecurities. In short, a man with character.

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

If I'll stop talking.. The world dies.... lol....so please... dont ever dare to stop me okay!!!!

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" ..mAny aRe cAllEd, but fEw ArE ChOoSen.."

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Darn long thread...

labda06 said "And its worse if some male senior personnel are from developing countries... but in my experience men from "the west" have a lot more respect for women's work than those from other countries."

- Generally true to a large extent but some companies have broad minded male bosses, even though from developing countries. It's a matter of education and experience / exposure to other cultures, their IQ and abilities to adapt and continuously learn from others.

*****************************************

Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

stop talking please.

be humble

Women can do the same as men. Men do works as well as woman. Intellectually, i believe its almost the same.. It's just a matter of how you used your intellect. so men shouldn't claimed that they are intelligent than women or the other way around. Their are certain areas where Men excel and women do have their own specific ways that they excel also.. So everything on this Earth must be Equal...

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" ..mAny aRe cAllEd, but fEw ArE ChOoSen.."

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labda ..."We are in agreement re the quality of the boss, but NOT how women in the workplace are perceived/treated."

- Yes, when I first joined my company, they thought I was either the tea lady or the secretary. Some still do, to their detriment.

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

some women managers are unnecessarily hursh !

:(

be humble

I do (oppose it). :-)

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Some women make good leaders, some don't.

Some men make good leaders, some don't.

But one sex aren't naturally better leaders than the other. Given the same opportunities, training and experiences both are equally capable leaders.

You may have had many experiences where one sex is a better leader than others, but that doesn't mean it applies to the whole human race. The number of people anyone has worked with is a minuscule percentage of all the people in the World.

And if you consistently find you don't get on with one sex at work, perhaps it's more of a refection on yourself!

but, there is an issue.

be humble

This is my opinion and of course it could be wrong. Feel free to question it and oppose it.

prejudice (i.e., women don't usually make good leaders/bosses) just indicates why there is so much work left to be done before we allow all members of society to contribute to the best of their ability.

Speed, I am really surprised that you would state you will NEVER work for a woman based on 2 experiences. I have been working for 30+ years and had plenty of bad bosses -- male and female. So where would that lead me if I applied your reasoning?

QatariLady, it is personally elitist to state that women don't make good leaders in the workplace, but then qualify the statement by saying YOU are one of the few who does! So most other women aren't good enough but YOU ARE??? I am sure you don't mean to be arrogant, but you might want to rethink that one.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Before the economy took a nose dive. In my area of the office we had 3 males and 3 females working. The bosses made a decision to fire some people, and only kept the best workers. There are now 3 females and 1 male.

A confirmation bias is when we believe something to be true, and therefore take greater notice of events that confirm this belief, and alternatively dismiss contradicting evidence as exceptional occurrences. When we expect women to be catty and emotional, we take note every time something happens to confirm it and we commit it to memory. When a man does the same, we almost immediately dismiss it, or not even acknowledge it as "cattiness" or emotional behaviour.

Flan ...if that is what your boss would look like....then?:

Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition and are short sighted underachievers .

Salam

In America, women are STILL fighting for equality in the workplace. Its not very long ago that they were ALLOWED to work and that only came about during WWII and most the male population were fighting overseas. Just recently in fact, the female PILOTS were honored for their part in that war. Seems that they did the TEST FLIGHTS for the airplanes(one of the most dangerous jobs still today)...but it was covered up until just this past year. Sadly most of the pilots have passed away and only about 30 remain. Of those 30, they stand proud to be of service to their country just as the men did....Sad tho that it took this long to be recognized just beccause they are women...THAT is the stereotyping women are facing, still today, even in America.

If you look at the voting in America...the black people had the vote 50 years before women did. Is that racist??? yes...and illogical since gender doesn't make a difference in your ability to think, just as color doesn't either.

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

SPEED - by saying you don't want to work for a female boss for whatever reason is completely disrespectful to all women.

what i said about NOT working with female boss and RESPECTING women in general !!

And Scarlett ... Thanks God this Survey came from the Country where men and women are considered to be EQUAL :-D

IS being stereotyped just as you have done. Its rather like being profiled as an Arab when going through airports...some just can't get past the stereotype..and when that happens, no progess can be made.

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

here is the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17345308

and here is the details:

Men rule — at least in workplace attitudes

Even women seem skeptical of female bosses in Elle/MSNBC.com survey

Hillary Clinton might want to sit up and pay attention to results of our exclusive survey on attitudes in the workplace.

While Clinton hopes to smash through the ultimate glass ceiling to become the nation's first female president, the Work & Power Survey conducted by Elle and MSNBC.com suggests that stereotypes about sex and leadership are alive and well.

While more than half our 60,000 respondents said a person's sex makes no difference to leadership abilities, most who expressed a preference said men are more likely to be effective leaders.

Of male respondents, 41 percent said men are more likely to be good leaders, and 33 percent of women agreed. And three out of four women who expressed a preference said they would rather work for a man than a woman.

The survey, conducted early this year, found a bonanza of stereotypes among those polled, with many using the optional comment section to label women "moody," "bitchy," "gossipy" and "emotional." The most popular term for woman, used 347 times, was "catty."

There are still few women in the corner office today, and the numbers appear to be declining. Our survey sheds light on one obstacle blocking women from the boardroom: negative attitudes about women leaders — attitudes women themselves still harbor.

Work and power -- You, the boss and life in the office

Men rule the roost — at least in attitudes

Power of attraction is strong in workplace

Women most likely to miss work for kid

Key findings from Elle/MSNBC.com survey

Readers share their thoughts | Discuss

“One cannot live in a sexist society without absorbing some of those messages, which make women feel worse about themselves and suspicious of other women," said Janet Lever, a professor of sociology at California State University in Los Angeles, who helped conceive the survey. "The enemy is omnipresent cultural messages, not women themselves."

There are long-established attributes that are assigned to men and women, says Madeline E. Heilman, an expert on workplace sex bias and professor of psychology at New York University. Women take care of others and nurture, while men are seen as taking charge and being assertive. The problem is, she says, when we map these attributes onto the workplace the male attributes are much more sought after.

“I call this the lack of fit,” she explains, because the perceived attributes of women don’t fit the leadership mold. “When women succeed in areas they’re not supposed to they are disapproved of greatly, by everyone, men and women.”

Indeed, our survey found that about 33 percent of men and women would rather work for a man, while about 13 percent would prefer working for a woman. (The remaining 54 percent had no preference.)

About the survey

Our online survey was completed by 61,647 people, about 50 percent male and 50 percent female. The average age was 42, 94 percent said they work full-time and 44 percent said they supervise other workers. Although the sample size is large and diverse, it is not considered nationally representative because it was largely restricted to MSNBC.com readers.

And when asked who would be more likely to lead effectively, males were preferred by more than a 2-1 margin by both men and women — even though women got high marks for being problem solvers and providing more supportive work environments.

Will men and women ever see beyond these ingrained beliefs and accept women as conductors on the career express? It’s all about preconceived notions of the leader image, says Claire Babrowski, the former CEO of RadioShack. When people close their eyes and visualize the top dogs sitting around the corporate table, she explains, “We picture men in leadership roles. As a woman you already have this hurdle to overcome.”

Julie Fasone Holder, a corporate vice president for Dow Chemical, remembers a hallway conversation in the 1980s after she and another woman were promoted. A male executive said to Fasone, “I guess it’s women’s promotion week.” The way he said it, she says, “was I was being promoted because I was a women, not a great leader.”

And even though Fasone says things have gotten better for women, she adds: “Women still face stereotypes. We’ve come a ways, but I wouldn’t say we’ve arrived.”

[quote:] "we don't want to be equal to you guys, that would require a major step DOWN..."

LOL nice one..

Of course you'll find men who are simply jerks..

that basically stated men are usually better in defining in which direction the pushing goes made me laugh...I have a friend who is Qatari, male, who is complaining of the other males he works with that stall EVERYTHING in their office!!! And, its out of jealousy!!

Speed...wow, you surprise me with your attitude on women...trust me...we don't want to be equal to you guys, that would require a major step DOWN...

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the main difference between a dog and man.

-Mark Twain-

You already were under a female manager since your birth, under your mom, aunt or grandma? If you're married with kids, your wife, whether a site-home or working outside, is already a co-partner with you, she makes decisions on budgeting, child raising and education, prioritizing house chores and maybe deciding for you what colors to wear..:)

You have been under some sort of a female influence, whether you admitted it or not..:P

Salam

Now I vote Qlady for Qatar's next female cabinet minister. Just like Sarah Palin OK

Promote men-women workplace equality, Boycott boring male boss

I have to agree with Labda. Women get half the oppurtunities as men and have to work twice as hard for the same position. I know... been there done that and will keep fighting. Its quite hard really to manage home and work and to be labelled as "oh she's married she'll have other things to do" or "oh she's a girl... can we count on her?" I guess u wont get it unless u've been in the situation before.

"Ali Baba and 40 thieves" are now "Ali Baba and 30 thieves" ; 10 were laid off.

ROFL, I'm talking about the corporate world. I could say "down in the trenches" if you prefer. :P

Gypsy - "Worked down in nuts n bolts" ????????

m I wrong in thinking tht we are talking about office n corporate world here ???

Or the dirty mind of mine strikes back ?????? :)

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Man created religion ..not GOD... get over it guys...- FS

For that matter QL have you actually ever worked under a woman in a management position, or with women in management positions??? From my experience there aren't that many here. Or are you basing your assumptions of how women work based on the average admin assistant or low level female employee?

Speed - lol....

Hey.. I would love to have a female Boss...

As someone had mentioned in a female oriented forum...

mus be Flan.. who else can write this.. or Brit..someone

If we have female boss... even we can sleep our way to climb the corporate ladder... :)

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Man created religion ..not GOD... get over it guys...- FS

And how many men have you worked with QL, and How closely?? You've said your on the board of the directors, which from my experience here means you're nothing but a figurehead with no real say in the company. So have you ever actually worked down in the nuts and bolts?

The men in my family and the men I worked with? Most of them don't..

And you don't think men do that???

Identifying where problems are is a prerequisite. Fighting over who is to blame is begging for endless war.

Thank goodness I don't live in your world or have your thoughts Speed. I don't know how I'd be able to live with those thoughts and opinions in my head. just wondering how you came to have your opinion on women in the workplace?

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"By rejecting to work for a female boss does not means that we do not respect women in general. Women has a very high value in our culture."

What a shocking thing to read from you SPEED, and incredibly contradictory. You respect women and they have a high value in your culture, but you wont work for one. I'm shocked and saddened.

The fact that this question was even asked and is being discussed is a sad reflection on the way humans treat each other.

QL everything you've just described women do are all the faults in my male dominated industry. Perhaps my work could afford some sitting down and figuring out where the problems are, rather then just pushing ahead regardless.

That's not facts Speed thats your personnel sexist opinion and a gross generalization.

Perhaps it's true of many women here because they've been raised to be under achieviers, but not true of women everywhere.

labda, seems your stuck in this thread:D

Speed, can you post some surveys/statistics/etc to back up your claim please?

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I know, huh...?!

you cannot deny the facts?

Moody men = Deep thinkers, great strategists

Emotional men = Charged, takes the bull by the horns

Talkative men = Great negotiators, impeccable people skills.

But women are moody, emotional and talkative

Not only a matter of opportunity. I've worked with men and women and found men to be more effective even as employees not necessarily as manager or leaders. Too many things get in the way when women work. If they're jealous of each other or if they simply have different opinions they won't cooperate and the work will come to a halt until they figure out who was wrong and who is to blame. This usually doesn't happen among men.

Speed, that's just horrendously sexist.

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Yes, but the difference is that you're not acceding to societies norms. If males are dominant, then conforming to scoietal norms would mean to keep males as dominant.

moody, emotional and talkative could lead.

But accept the fact that MOST of the women are moody, emotional and talkative.... Don't go anywhere just see this thread :-D

One should not differentiate between women and men in the workplace. To do so, only creates even MORE glass ceilings for women, as if there aren't enough already.

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Sorry!

Salam

I come from a male dominated society too. But where I come from we, women, work as judges, have seats in the Parliament, we have female ministers, most importantly we're equally paid.

Yet, we're still fighting for our cause, the same cause of women worldwide.

Salam

Since you are able to lead men, is it not possible that most women can lead men as well, but that they just may never have been given the opportunities to do so?

well, even if I am woman, I prefer a male boss, some women tends to be bitchy with women subordinates... and a man boss is more malleable...

By rejecting to work for a female boss you are ruining many womens chances of ever becoming a boss.

QL, what? You ask them to make the decisions while you're nails are drying?

I consider myself among the minority of women who can lead men.

personal decision :-)

Yes I will tell you few reasons that most of the women are more emotional, moody and talkative than men.

But this does not mean I don't support women working in the job industries or working as a Boss, only those women who are really serious in their work/ business.

We had an example of Khadija Al Kubra(SA) Wife of our Prophet Mohammad(PBUH), who was a successful business woman more than 1400 years ago?

Fatima Al Zahra, Daughter of Mohammad(PBUH) and wife of Ali Ibn Abi Talib(SA) is also a great example in Islam.

By rejecting to work for a female boss does not means that we do not respect women in general. Women has a very high value in our culture. God has put heaven under the feet of a Mother. I think this is the highest dignity woman has got from Allah (GOD).

QL you are a perfect reflection of a male dominated society. The male figures would be proud of you.

The "pushing" of managers and their team leads is calculated and directed towards their short and long term goals.

Salam

Not from my experience. I actually haven't noticed a difference in that particular respect.

wonderingearth....what the hell are you on about? This is the same and only QL username Iv had. I'd never encountered you before yesterday and your sprintering thread. What you have nothing of substance to say so you claim I have a virtual crush on you? Please.

For peace-sake I will not respond to any comments you raise. Cause Im pretty sure I will have nothing but disdain for them.

You're right about women being better in pushing employees harder. Men are usually better in defining in which direction the pushing goes.

Of course it is. In order to get to these positions women have to be more goal driven and more forceful. Rather then drift there way up the corporate ladder like many men who end up in management positions.

i think i can recognize you.... the same one who s so gigil na gigil to me ever since. changed your ID?

but never mind... at least i keep your adrenalin dancing.

fish labs! ouch.. i mean peace!

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You said your senior emotionally broke down and cried, so many senior men breakdown too, but their expression is different, they yell at their staff, very short tempered and frequently changed their mind last minute.

Many (normal) managers, from both genders, don't make good risk managers. This position requires high self composure, wits and fast planning and action, especially if there was no risk assessment and mitigation plans put in place from the start of a project.

Salam

I would agree with you.. Is this not to do with trying to prove themselves in what they percieve as a "Man's world " ?

I've been very lucky that I've had excellent bosses in the past, both male and female. If I had to choose a gender to work under I would say a woman though as I find them less laid back. They generally tend to push their employees harder and demand more. Perhaps that's why men have such a hard time with female bosses.

No. My personal experience of working with a woman in senior position has been not so good...she lacked emotional strength...would always breakdown in tears when confronted and was always ready to raise the flag that I am a women and u should mind arguing with me, when cornered... also lacked the vision to see tomorrow...

Things which seemed so difficult to manage became just normal routine when she got replaced...obviously by a man...

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One life to live, live it to the fullest.

Gender is completely irrelevant. It's a matter of the right set of skills, experience and personal readiness.

From my international experience, women were better bosses for three reasons:

1-They had better communication skills.

2-They were keen on PD of their staff.

3-They believed in macro-management and delegation.

This is the same strategy I'm currently applying to my team, and I make sure I have my French manicure done weekly, I look my best with a lovely smile, as much as I can, even during Implementation and all that comes with it.

Salam

So because you've had two bad female bosses you'll never work for a female again? What if you had two bad male bosses, would you never work for a man again?

and one in Dubai both turned out to be bad luck for me.

No I don't think that all the female are same :-) There might be good female bosses around but I always learn from my experience.

I had worked for a male boss he was bad too but not as bad as the female the one I had worked for previously...

Here in Qatar my Line Manager and the CEO are male and both are Qataris I must say they are the best bosses I ever had.

There's no doubt that Qatar is behind some other countries in terms of women in the workplace. The very fact that a husband or a father has to write a letter of no objection for his wife/daughter to enter the workplace is absolutely ridiculous. And who made up that particular rule...men!!! Go figure.

I'd say some men are scared witless of what women could achieve which would show the men up in a bad light.

And I dispute the claim by Qatarilady that most Qatarias are in the workplace...I think statistics would show that most are not in the workplace. There are still many Qatari men who feel it is shameful for 'their women' to work outside the home. It somehow makes them feel inadequate.

Qatarias are indebted to HH Sheikha Mozah for making it socially acceptable for them to be in the workplace and for giving them opportunities to do so.

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I am so glad that I had parents that didn't pay attention or care about gender sterotypes...

what dyu mean never question what's wrong with your dizzy comments??? If you want zero reaction to your comments, whisper them to yourself.

sure if you hold the same position, you have all your rights to demand equal pay and entitlements. i was just referring my response to you triple question mark above.

I have no trouble with you lady, shout out your triple question mark somewhere.

My comments are mine and are mine alone. React on it but never question what's wrong with it.

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What's wrong with being a feminist?

I don't mind if a guy holds a door open for me if he gets to it first, because I hold doors open for men if I get to the door first. It's not a gender issue, it's an issue of being polite.

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I'm a feminist because I don't sugar coat what I say?

My main issue with you is you consistently contradict yourself.

Is demanding equal opportunities going overboard? Is it unreasonable to demand the same pay and entitlements as a man in the same position?

The men I know still hold the door open for me. And if they dont Im not going to kick them in the ass for not doing so. That's socially speaking. This thread, may I remind you, is about the workplace.

I give bus seats to the elderly or people with disabilities regardless of their gender, and if a man offered me a seat just because I'm a woman I would insist he keep it.

I am already expecting these violent reactions. Cheers!

We have different opinions guys, so is labda. See... the value of everything depends upon oneself.

Endowed with stong intelligence and high morals, I do believe in a male-figure leader as they draw more respect (if not fear) in general. Tougher than women, emotionally strong.

Labda, i do believe in women's right of equality but there are issues that we women knew by heart that we can not insists like physical strength and male-superiority complex. Men always feel they have the highest position on earth.

Culture and Religion (bashing aside) has it that women in general should submit to their men (as in husband and wife).

Makes me wonder... women demand equality, be treated equal like men but there are instances when women still expect men to treat them like women. Example... in my home country, prior to the women's lib movement, a woman is always given a seat on the bus, men stand up to give way to a woman to sit. And now that women are given better rights, treated equals, would still expect/demand a seat in a bus from men?

With due respect to women like me, sometimes i dont see where equality here. What's really going on is that women's demand sometimes go overboard,unreasonable.

I have no problem with men's superiority. I walk my way to where i am now, equal with men.

Glitterfy.com - Glitter Graphics

H. stands for?

wonderingearth...let men lead and women assist??? What's wrong with you?

Jesus H. Christ...no wonder we women are in the state we're in today. :(

there are positions where women could fare better than men. Detail-oriented, women do it well, goal-oriented, leave it to men.

Furthermore, this is situational - heavy highly technical field work, i do believe men could be more effective and efficient.

Strategists? the mix of both effectively leads to effeciency. Sure there cant be 2 bosses at a time. To tap it all, let men lead and women assist.

Glitterfy.com - Glitter Graphics

So Speed, you worked with ONE female boss who wasn't very good so you assume ALL female bosses aren't good? If you'd worked with one male boss who wasn't good would you assume all male bosses aren't good?

"Alexa said: Does not matter if they are male or female, success depends on the person, not their gender."

But my previous experience working with a Lady boss was bitter :-/

And how many are able to rise in their careers to the point of being management?

You suggesting that a few decades was enough for women to prove their ability in comparison to men, definitely implies that you think men are better, especially since the number of men working in high paid jobs is more than women. It's like you don't believe me that women are refused jobs and promotions based on their gender.

Most of them. Those who never worked are very rare and usually married to well-off men.

And how many of those Qatari women leave the universities and go into careers?

So women were oppressed until very recently. This explains why you perceive abayas as an oppression. Qatari women used to wear abayas but go to universities. Wow!

I'm not saying they're absolutely better. They're just different.

Generally men focus on the big picture while women focus on details. Both are good and equally important. You cannot work out a cutting-edge strategy without smart ppl working on the details.

University in Canada can cost upwards of $50,000 per child, and in the 70's & 80's, scholarships and loans were usually given only to men as they were considered the ones who were going to "use" them. Women have been able to attend university in Canada (at least in certain fields) since the late 1800's, however only in my generation has it been considered anything more for a woman then a stepping stone towards marriage.

QL you think a few decades is enough for women to prove themselves completely equal in the workforce, yet you admittedly believe men to be better and would in the same circumstance hire a man over a woman. And you're a woman. Imagine what we are fighting when we're up against corporations filled with men who believe the same thing regardless if it's true or not. We have definitely not broken the seal of top level jobs, simply because there are people who still refuse to hire women based on their gender, not on their ability.

In Qatar women began going to university in the 1970s!! Are you telling me that women in Canada were hidden at home until the 90s?

LOL ashwindoke If I was given the choice I'd pick the first one too. I'd love to be a man in a developing country.

descrimination on the basis of anything is a natural talent human are born with......

I don know If given a choice - One would prefer to be a Man in developing country or a Women in Developed country.....

Not descriminating or talking low about anyone..

Jus on the basis of oppourtunities which come along.

Neither would get a 100% vote.

If I was given this choice.. i would prefer the first one (subject to present social set up)

___________________________________________

Man created religion ..not GOD... get over it guys...- FS

I don't think any of them would deny that they were presented with opportunities along the way. And when I say "given" I mean the opportunity to go to university, get an entry level position, the same pay as everyone else, etc. Things that women are often denied.

So the men who lead successful organisations either inherited fortunes or were 'given' opportunities!.. Read biographies of successful ppl please.

ashwindoke, actually your views are very sexist. It's not about natural talents. Anyone can make up for lack thereof by practise, practise, practise.

I am not a racist... sexiest whtever

But Men make better corporate bosses than women do...

Same way... as a women does much better a JOb raising Kid than a man can.....

Child of single mother has better chances of being groomed well than one raised by a single father...

Not saying all... but most of them......

Women are better at micro-management JObs

Men at Macro.

Equality doesn't mean doing exactly the same...

It should be doing what we are naturally good at...

I wont look down upon a Elephant cause a deer runs faster than him.

___________________________________________

Man created religion ..not GOD... get over it guys...- FS

ROFLING. Not everyone has a million dollar trust fund to "make" their opportunities QL. Try growing up in a poor family as a woman and we will see if your tune changes.

Leaders aren't 'given' opportunities. They 'make' them. Thanx for proving my point.

MissX..

[quote:] " Do you not see that women in the last few decades have only just been allowed in."

If you were allowed in for a 'few decades' that should be enough! You don't have to work for centuries as an individual.

QL are you serious? Maybe go read up on some womens liberation history.

In many cases women aren't getting equal upbringing, and in reality women have only been in the workforce in the West since the 70's. Given that most CEO's average the age of 60, NO, they aren't given equal opportunities because most 60 year old men think the same way you do.

Why?

What's your profession?

QatariLady is in la la land.

Men and women as individuals didn't live for hundreds of years. Where you are now is a result of your education, experience, aptitudes and attitudes.

In the modern world men and women are getting equal education and (as I understand) equal upbringing. Saying that women were forcefully prhibitted from entering those domains is nonsense and feable denial.

All women in the modern world were given equal opportunities in the past decades which should be enough to see an equal number of women who excel in political and business leadership had they had the same aptitudes and attitudes.

Took the words right out of my mouth MissX

and again khalid is trying to mix water with oil

QatariLady, have you ever considered that numbers of men are dominant in politics and business not because of their better skill set, but because they for hundreds of years forcefully stopped women from entering these fields? Do you not see that women in the last few decades have only just been allowed in, and are proving our worth by fighting perceptions like yours, tooth and claw with demonstrated ability? You don't believe women are equally adept at these type of measures because you still live in patriarchal societies where they tell you we aren't. Don't hate us because we're climbing our way out of ours.

Can't you read English people?

I said most men are more effective managers than most women. This means that there are some women who are more effective than men. Simply look around you all over the world and see the dominant gender in politics and business.

And please don't feel sorry for me. I'm a chairperson of a company that I have founded.

To defend women just because you're a woman and feel bad to admit this reality is pathetic!

and it's still quite painful. At least now I have had another xray to pinpoint the problem, gotten it wrapped properly, and had pain medication properly prescribed. God bless the USA :-)

As for the discussion at hand: I think both men and women make equally good leaders in the workplace and have had lousy ones of each sex. Frankly, I don't pay too much attention to what many of the men on QL have to say about women. Lately, I have to add a few of the women to that category :-)

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

000 said:

wives were riding camels or horses to provide for the needs of her family.

Know, I do understand the slang 'camel jockys.' First the wife jocky, child jocky, then the robot Jocky and know the cruiser jocky, they are still jockys. I need to buy some anti-jock jocky powder, which one will you recommend?

How is your clutchy foot doing?

Graduated from Xavier Institute for Higher learning.

that he is going to be banned if he keeps proselytizing and here he even HIJACKS to do it!

QL has almost succeeded in putting me off religion completely :-(

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Gypsy has said it all. Like always.

hahahaha

WTH does that post have to do with this topic Khalid?

Many of us do not know the Hadith (sayings of our prophet Muhammed)

I put for those who want to know more about the sayings of our prophet Muhammed and here is some of them

#1

The Prophet Muhammad asked people to shun notions of racial, family or any other form of superiority based on mundane things and said that righteousness alone was the criterion of one's superiority over another.

#2

The Prophet enjoined upon Muslims to treat the poor kindly and to help them with alms, zakat, and in other ways.

He said: "He is not a perfect Muslim who eats his fill and lets his neighbor go hungry."

#3

“None of you believes (completely)

until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself."

#4

"The merciful are shown mercy by the All-Merciful. Show mercy to those on earth, and God will show mercy to you."

#5

"The believers, in their love, mercy, and kindness to one another are like a body: if any part of it is ill, the whole body shares its sleeplessness and fever.“

#6

“God does not judge you according to your appearance and your wealth, but He looks at your hearts and looks into your deeds."

#7

"Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith.“

#8

"Whoever is kind, Allah will be

kind to him; therefore be kind to

man on the earth. He who is in heaven will show mercy on you.“

#9

"Do you know what is better than charity and fasting and prayer? It is keeping peace and good relations between people, as quarrels and bad feelings destroy mankind.“

#10

“Acquire knowledge,

it enables its possessor to distinguish right from wrong;

it lights the way to heaven.

It is our friend in the desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless.

It guides us to happiness,

it sustains us in misery,

it is an ornament amongst friends

and an armor against enemies.”

#11

“Say what is true, although it may be bitter and displeasing to people.”

#12

“Keep yourselves far from envy; because it eats up and takes away good actions, like a fire eats up and burns wood.”

#13

“When three persons are together,

two of them must not whisper

to each other, without letting

the third hear;

because it would hurt him.”

#14

“The best richness is the richness of the soul.”

#15

“O Lord,

grant me your love,

grant me that I love those who

love you;

grant me, that I might do the

deeds that win your love,

make your love dearer to me

than the love of myself my family

and wealth.”

...P.S so did women, hehe

Stone Cold, actually no, the first thing men did was have long discussions regarding their competency. When that was settled, yes they moved onto their weight, and make up and other such frivolities.

Yes and obama's looks are NEVER mentioned :P

Fwweewiiit..See how Condi Rice & Hill Clinton does their diplomacy rounds. First thing first, men look to see if they are gaining weight when on TV. Thats quite a distraction isn't it. I don't expect you to say I am a sexist.

Stone Cold, the bar of standard is not necessarily set by men.

Gypsy, very true.

If the reverse isn't true Stone Cold it's because the man can't handle a successful woman.

Well, behind every successful man is a women. Its never the reverse way. Theres a lot of limitation anyway, however could not denied that they are good as weel if only they do their jobs as competence as men does

britexpat, that's true, change didnt come overnight...

Why should I take offence ? You are probably right. However, change in the West didn't come overnight remember. I'm sure as more women join the management teams here, attitudes will begin to change.

I work with a female HR Manager.. she is excellent and has the respect of all around her.

I know labda I do feel sorry for her. But my question is, when did "feminist" become a dirty word?

Brit, it's really bad. And its worse if some male senior personnel are from developing countries. Please people dont take offence, but in my experience men from "the west" have a lot more respect for women's work than those from other countries.

Well that's why I said "intentionally" I believe much of the current gender bias is not intentionally put in place, it's just a result of out dated ideas, or the nature of the industry your in.

Qatarilady equates supporting the advancement of women with feminism. Dont feel sad for her, feel sorry.

Yes, there is a gender bias, but i don't believe its as bad as its made out to be.. The barriers are being eroded. I have worked for many female bosses - some good, some awful.

In many instances, women tend to lose out on upper level jobs because they have to balance a career and family.

I love to have a lot of women co-worker or even for a boss....not like where I work now were we are all men and all the boss are everyday SHOUTING..GIRGIR..SHOUTING..GIRGIR..SHOUTING..GIRGIR..SHOUTING..GIRGIR..SHOUTING..GIRGIR..SHOUTING..GIRGIR..SHOUTING..GIRGIR..

sick and tired of their mouth

Oh Hell's no women aren't afforded the same opportunites. We have to work twice as hard to get heard and move up the ladder. As I said, I'm working now in a male dominated industry and I can see how everything (intentionally or not) is skewed against women succeeding.

What makes me especially sad is to hear women like QL support these out dated gender bias.

ya johnpur SSDD.

Gypsy yes, but do you believe that women are afforded the same opportunities that men in the same position are, generally speaking? And that's not considering companies that have formal rules on equal opportunities. We are in agreement re the quality of the boss, but NOT how women in the workplace are perceived / treated.

I am with Alexa, its not the gender, its the person.

______________________________________________

- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -

fine labda, aside from preachers having their breakfast in QL...

Well it's finally nice to read some liberal views about female bosses.

I've worked for both and I can honestly say the quality of a boss has nothing to do with their gender, and I completely disagree with QL about them being "rule-based" right now I work for a 95% male company and it's more rule based then any female run company I've worked for. It all depends on the position and the person NOT the gender.

hahaha johnpur...morning u! how's it going?

lucky me, im on labda's side

Stone Cold, anyone who knows me will tell you Im quite reserved, I don't wear makeup (though I probably should, lol) and I hate to cook. Does your theory still apply?

Qatarilady, Im not a feminist but Im just as bit as goal oriented as the next guy.

Brit, I am very competitive yes. But I dont play dirty games, whereas Iv seen men stick each other and anyone else in the back many times. To be honest the only ones who do not seem threatened by me are those with way more experience who are in the twilight of their professional careers.

Alexa, that is true. However you cannot deny that on average women are paid less than men, get fewer promotions etc. I used to say nah, the playing field is even, but it is not. Take tennis for eg, its only been a couple of years that women take home the same prize money as their male counterparts.

Ha..ha..scandal in the office..right. I have heard lots of incident like that. Feeled stress...babe lets go to the pantry

"A female boss’ only problem is that if she made a mistake, it will be blamed on her as a woman not as a boss"

How rtuuuue!!

I think female bosses work harder.. Yes, men tend to have it in them somehow naturally..It's due to the way we were raised I guess, but many women are leaders by nature as well.. Not me though lol

[img_assist|nid=7232|title=Dua|desc=Amen :-)|link=none|align=left|width=440|height=56]

Urk...you think so? I highly doubt that.

-------------------------------------

i'd love to have a woman boss, at least i could finally sleep my way to the top.

Qatarilady, one doesn't need to be a feminist to say that plenty of women are highly successful in their chosen field. Perhaps the women you know are as you say but this is certainly not the case with myself or the women I have the priveledge to work with and know.

-------------------------------------

is good looking!

:)

I thought you'd been called worse names than that ??

In some cases, women bosses tend to overcompensate for the sexism present by being overly competitive..

Ooooops, lucky you. do you mean you have Jenifer Lopez as your boss.

stone honestly, what do you wan't, a sexy beautiful lady boss or a boss who looks like ME

Who said so?. Women talks too much, spend more time on make up, discuss only what cooking ware to buy on shopping trip or thinking how things will be going on in bed tonight. Obviously the answer is a big NO.

This is sexism MD!

being a better boss dosent arise the question of capability.....both men and women are equally good.

It might me easier for a women who comes from a rich buisness family to take over men as boss........however it might not be the same for someone comming from a middle class family.

Aana free, jaana free,

Pakde gaye tho khana free.

Yes Labda,

The beauty of propaganda in the Media.

Not by me, QL.

Women tend to overly stick to procedural details while men are more goal-oriented. This makes most men more effective than most women. (I know I'll be attacked by feminists).

labada have to agree with you somehow......reality is far from what is written above.

Aana free, jaana free,

Pakde gaye tho khana free.

Really? Is that why most of the men Iv had the (dis)pleasure of working with call me a bitch and have tried to stitch me up at every corner? That article is the stuff fairy tales are made of. Women in the workplace, in positions of authority know better.

Oh lovely, 2 moderate/liberal opinions.

999.999.998 to go.

yes definitely