Pakistan reintroduces death penalty

I believe to say Islam advocates the capital punishment is to accuse Islam of juridical errors and inconsistencies As the Qur’an says that to advocate bloodshed is a sin and to promote for that would be to create a contradiction. Hence to maintain that capital punishment can be justified is an invalid interpretation.

of the Quran, it is unjust and unlawful killings of innocents that is forbidden. However the verses for capital punishment can be found clearly as are the authentic narrations of the Prophet having ordered the death penalty for certain crimes(though forgiveness is encouraged and said to be better than vengeance).

That said it is well known that capital punishment was only applied when the case was clear and the wrongdoer was guilty of the crime without any doubt. And that is how the death penalty should be put to action anywhere if legislated.

Why do Buddhist monks burned themselves alive?

What is your thought about the recent massacres?

I respect your believe. It is good to know that you have believe on something.

Just a clarification,as we had many conversations I am sure you would give me some genuine answers.

The four noble truth of Gautama Buddha are the following

1.There is suffering and misery in life .

2.The cause of this suffering and misery is desire.

3.Suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire.

4.Desire can be removed by the 8 Fold Path.

Once you remove desire, how can we follow the Fourth Noble truth (The 8 Fold Path) ???

What about sex?

Why Buddhist have Buddha statues in their temples?

In Buddhist community how to do you deal with any sort of misconduct such rape sexual harassment theft etc?

Perhaps Buddhism then has different sects(in fact they do). In SRi Lanka the "Buddha" worshiped is "Gautama Buddha" and he is called God, Master, and Lord by his followers.

Exactly why we should have courts of law to decide punishments, not victims.

When not in the position of a victim/family member of a victim, etc we all have such contradicting views on how suitable, just and right is capital punishment, yet how many are prone to change their views when in those truly harrowing role.

Think of the father in Saudi, who having the ability to see the man guilty of killing his son put to death, calls on the state to release him. And yet think of the Buddhist father in Sri Lanka who's daughter is raped, killed and her corpse left humiliated for her father to discover, calling on the state to bring the punishment of KSA to Sri Lanka(his precise words)..different people behave differently when faced with trials!

SA: you understand that Minors in Islam are unaccountable and without sin until they reach adulthood right?

But just to correct a small misconception, the Buddhists do in fact worship Buddha. But not quite the same way a Muslim, Christian or Jew may worship God. It is definitely more complicated and philosophical an approach but suffice to say they worship his mind and his way of life, they worship idols of him, they follow his commandments to the best of their ability, they call upon him when in a calamity,etc. They call him "Lord Buddha" and even "God". I should know...my cousins and most of my classmates, work colleagues, etc are/were Buddhists and I come from a majority Buddhist country.

all gone a bit Bonkers!

we are all born with a conscience. even kids know when their relative is having a go or is pretending to be all lovey dovey.

surely one must remember their aunties/ uncles/ relatives who were genuinely nice - one didn't need to pass their A levels to have a clue.

one pretty much treats others the way one sees themselves.

but none of them

-cried and waited for tax payer handouts

-clubbed together and got face lifts; of course at the expense of tax payers

-or supported paedo's getting a second lease of life

-used their time to watch porn / child porn

-get state protection

-travelled to practice their porn skills in different countries

-and then said 'ah it wasn't me - it was me parents'

none of them waited for hand-me-downs. they had an innate self respect and were dignified to say the least in such horrific forms of depravity, amorality and perversity.

Hi LandLR, didn't mean to ignore you.

basically, abuse is rampant and everyone on the list suffered in more ways than one i.e.

1. poverty

2. race

3. parent-less

4. spouse-less

5. territory

6. maid-less

etc. etc.

and yet they were able to rise above the situation regardless of circumstance, territory, race, money, and so on.

1-6 are all forms of abuse. of course there are many more forms for that matter.

Qatar also started to get rid of the Round About things..IMHO can you make a direct point or statement?

Oprah Winfrey talks about the sexual and physical abuse she endured during her childhood all the time. As for all the other people you mention, there's no evidence they were abused as children, so you have no point.

just after reading

"WTF are you on about morningdelight. You're making no sense and the people you just listed have nothing to do with the conversation."

as much as having a logical discussion doesn't suit you. I now understand your use of the term '-T-'

lots of honourable people who made it without crying about their situation

JD Rockerfeller

Ozzy Ozborne :))

Liz Murray [horrific childhood]

Andrew Carnegie

Oprah Winfrey

the question still stands:-

if something terrible ever happened to one of your own- would you honestly support perversity, depravity, amorality?

WTF are you on about morningdelight. You're making no sense and the people you just listed have nothing to do with the conversation.

all of the above had plenty of scope

1. to watch things they aren't supposed to

2. blame their parents

3. blame society

4. blame poverty

5. get into bad company

none of them used the 'race card' or 'society' or 'poverty' or leached on to the support system to get their faces re-done or get into paedophilia - again and again -

let's evaluate Malala Yousufazai-

1. she was 'Pakistani'

2. shot by the Taliban

3. recovered

And is pursuing the values she believed in once again without bitching and moaning of having grown up in a twisted society.

let's evaluate Maggie Thatcher- (RIP)

1. she wasn't born wealthy

2. studied real hard

3. went for it

till the end was a dignified Lady who truly was much loved.

let's evaluate Chris Gardner-

1. he was 'black'

2. he was 'homeless'

3. he had bugger all

There was no moaning about being abused at childhood or about not having parents or about his wife who left me or about his not having a baby sitter or that his classmates were kids of wealthy 'wall street' parents living it up.

let's evaluate Gandhi-

1. he was 'Indian'

2. thrown off the train

3. vowed to get 'divide and rule' kicked out

Don't recollect him bitching and moaning about his supporters being killed. Or the fact that he had to deal with the perversity of 'divide and rule' Or that he had to put up with the torture of his supporters.

Yes. Court of Law examines it with all dimensions, each and every aspect of it. We have different opinions about the type of punishment...but we all favour that they should be punished.. punishment is not revenge.

I have a sibling, I also have a son and a daughter on the way. I would still be saying the same things about rehabilitation and the barbaric and uselessness of the death penalty.

Children are not born evil, and for two ten year olds to commit such a crime something must have happened to make them that way, same as any criminal. There were 3 innocent lives lost that day, not just one.

just wondering if you have siblings or siblings who have children, and if anyone you knew went through the same thing that Jamie Bulgers Mum and Dad did- to re-live time and again the fact that their little boy was taken away because of two evil and sick-minded boys; whether you'd be singing from the same hymn sheet of condoning perversity, depravity and amorality.

do you support perversity, depravity, amorality? if so, why?

so again,

no of course not-

but it makes far better sense to

1. make honest tax paying people cough up to perversity, depravity, amorality

2. build up notorious schemes to turn a blind eye to the paedo's living 3ormaybe 5kms round the block

3. lock up kids from playing in their own backyard just in case the paedo's get offended

4. and in case they are having top notch plastic surgeons blunder up their face-do

5. give an opportunity to have perversity, depravity, amorality visit again

and again, and again.

do you support perversity, depravity, amorality? if so, why?

It's not the family's choice. The UK doesn't deal in revenge.

when he is 10 yrs old he will not be excuted, but when grows up if the family of the killed person did not agree to give release for the 10 yrs old.

So again, you want to kill 10 year olds?

just wondering if you have siblings or siblings who have children, and if anyone you knew went through the same thing that Jamie Bulgers Mum and Dad did- to re-live time and again the fact that their little boy was taken away because of two evil and sick-minded boys; whether you'd be singing from the same hymn sheet of condoning perversity, depravity and amorality.

no of course not-

but it makes far better sense to

1. make honest tax paying people cough up to perversity, depravity, amorality

2. build up notorious schemes to turn a blind eye to the paedo's living 3ormaybe 5kms round the block

3. lock up kids from playing in their own backyard just in case the paedo's get offended

4. and in case they are having top notch plastic surgeons blunder up their face-do

5. give an opportunity to have perversity, depravity, amorality visit again

and again, and again.

and perevention is better than cure.

please think about the pragnant woman example and you will understand.

Budha and consider him holy person so what do you call this?

Did I bring religious to the topic?

No, I only brought probabilities.

We have juvelian courts and they deal with it...

Yes mimi.. it is again depends on the context you define it.. Nirvana in Buddhism is very much the same term as monotheists describe God. Buddhist temples have Buddha Idols.. if it is just you I think you dont need an Idol or statue..

So you'd execute two ten year old boys morningdelight?

Just wondering if anyone went through the same thing that Jamie Bulgers Mum and Dad did- to re-live time and again the fact that their little boy was taken away because of two evil and sick-minded boys; whether they'd be singing from the same hymn sheet of condoning perversity, depravity and amorality.

If the world recession and people sitting in corporate offices pissing around with peoples' hard earned monies wasn't criminal enough; let's spend some more of everyone's tax paying quota to nuke the hell out of money that rightfully belongs to our families.

Makes sense doesn't it!

Funny the Buddhist monk I talked with in Sri Lanka called it a philosophy....

It was a typo.. it was 20 billion.. As you started believing in philosophy I thought you are still accepting this http://www.philosophyforum.net/HistTimeline_files/HistTimeline.htm

Yes. I understand. Non_relegious people take it as philosophy..People who believe in religion believe it as a religion. Wikipedia calls it a religion..BBC has Buddhism in religions category.. I always used to say Atheism is half Islam (Basic beliefs).

It really doesnt matter its a religion or not..I think we can create another thread to discuss it.

Our discussion was about CP..This was the point of discussion before hijack "MN if punishment is a crime for you then what do you suggest? Put him in jail?

Collapsing a freedom of a human being is also a crime..

A little smaller crime ( Punishment : life imprisonment ) is ok yanni???"

LLR: I beg to differ here. Unlike the 3 monotheistic and the many polytheistic religions out there Buddhism’s approach to dogma is different something a lot of people fail to see.

In Islam/Christianity or Judaism for example , they all have similar doctrines like of worship, salvation and the existence of a higher entity (Allah/God/Jesus/ yahweh , etc...

But in Buddhism all these things are considered as (illusions). And despite the many metaphysical concepts Buddhism teaches, nobody has to believe/follow in these things.

It’s like what MM said, a Philosophy, not a religion.

Semantics

For some people religion is a philosophy, for some atheism is also a religion...like no one has seen GOD..no one has seen what was there 200 billion years ago.. :))

Anyways..it was an interesting discussion.

http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm

now if the guilty murderer is sent to death then the guilty murderer may not suffer mentally if he/she are sent to life in prison.

A guilty murderer who is sent to life in prison might also kill a guard or more in the prison. So even when the guilty murderer is there in prison is in prison the probability of killing others is there in the prison, so sending the guilty murderer to death makes the probability of killing is zero.

Now let's have an example assume that the guard is a pragnant woman in the first two months, a guilty murderer who is sent to life in prison might kill this woman, then two lives will be lost, sending the guilty murderer to death will save two lives if things go well.

Buddhism isn't a religion. It's a philosophy. Liking something that the Dali Lama says is not different than liking something Aristotle said.

It is great that at least he trusts what dalai lama said as true. :) or maybe crisis in myanmar/rohingya was not by human beings.

"LLR, no, I would not accept "religious" laws, because they are also made by man.

Read more: http://www.qatarliving.com/comment/reply/15870491/3335831#ixzz2YS2RP6Ui"

Then why do you use the quotes of the Dali Lama here?

Please do not put something you do not accept, or do you accept and some do not accept?

Yes of course some courts of law has death penalty for corruption as well.

The crimes we have CP are not so small as to ignore them.. it is perfectly balanced..

A person was killed without his choice..may be he was the only son to take care of his old mom or the only person to take care of multiple human beings..

Showing sympathy towards the innocent is much better than being kind to a convicted murderer however I would change my thought if family like to pardon him.

MN if punishment is a crime for you then what do you suggest? Put him in jail?

Collapsing a freedom of a human being is also a crime..

A little smaller crime ( Punishment : life imprisonment ) is ok yanni???

You cannot put out fire with fire! You’re just making yourself as bad as the crime you're punishing

The Death penalty is an appealing crime by itself. The govt/state cannot in cold blood commit an act that it doesn't accept in the first place!

Would you like to accept religious laws?

I can show you millions who have control on their evil..This is what the life and religion is about.. Having an inbuilt evil doesn't give you an authority to act upon it..

It is revenge only when a family member of the victim kills the murderer.

Violence has both vertical and horizontal classifications.

We have exclusions, like insanity check up, defensive attacks.

Lonius - A common human being understands the difference and your statement "nourishes the seeds of violence that exist within each of us" is not accurate.

"Some of us" may be accurate but just "us" taking everyone into your thought is not accurate.

Just here in QL 2/7 is the ratio. So "us" makes no sense.

Not only grownup even a kid can differentiate "Crime" and "Punishment" easily as long as he has a good brain.

Prevention is better than cure.

Thelonius what is the definition of REVENGE?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge

that the excution should not be excuted blindly.

When guilty murderers are sent to life in prison there is a probability that some of them will leave the prison alive and there is another probability that some of those who left the prison alive will kill again, therefore sending those guilty murderers to death eliminates the propability of killing people by those juilty murderes who might leave the prison alive.

Can I just say I hate this 700 word limit. It's bull.

I don't think you can put a price on a persons life either LDR. Which is why I think more money should be spent on building rehabilitation programs that get to first time criminals before they commit crimes like murder (since most people who are sitting on death row, murder was not their first crime).

Lol :) In my opinion when it comes to life and life..who cares about money.. :))

By the way.. Standing against CP just cuz it costs too much to execute a person than keeping him in prison for life is kinda Selfish

Oh come on mimi doll :) these are not days to debate about killing and other things.. few more weeks left..so let us stop this here and think/talk something beautiful romantic lovely non-violence topics. :))

nobody is against punishment for rapists or murderers!

prison life is no cake walk either!

Ask any prisoner who is in solitary confinement for 1 year or more. He would always say death penalty would be much easier on him.I am just assuming it though.

Capital punishment has done no good and will do no good!

I'll let Brit answer that one with rants about taxpayer money Landover. :)

Nope. This is where it makes a difference. We dont kill just as such. We do it after proper conviction. We analyze the case with all the possible means. We give criminal an ample time. Until proven guilty we keep them in prison. Even after conviction, they have so many possibilities to appeal against their case. It is painful for us to see someone ending his life cuz of his mistake. It is kinda same like if any part of your body deteriorates cuz of some disease you do a surgery. Surgery is painful but our thought is that it should not spread or deteriorate the other parts.

hurry make bush a prisoner

So best to kill all prisoners then.

1 innocent person killed cuz we left the murderer outside or cuz he escaped from the prison is too many..

Without trusting the law, DNA test, Crime Science, CCTV footage, if you just would like to trust the prison administration that a criminal will not escape, is not rationally convincing.

Do you have any proper statistics that shows how many were innocent or proven not guilty after execution?? or it is just a presumption with "What-if-could-be-etc"?

As per my statistical analysis I found this..

1973-1983 – 22 were innocent out of 6536 = 0.003%

1984 -1993 – 30 were innocent out of 21264 = 0.001%

1994 – 2003 – 58 were innocent out of 33582 = 0.002%

2004 – Present – 29 were innocent out of 32020 = 0.001%

Scroll down to see the size of death row http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-row-inmates-state-and-size-death-row-year#state

List of Exonerees Since 1973 http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty#inn-yr-rc

It is just self explanatory now..

1 innocent person executed is too many.

Then sending them to death is the right choice because the propability that they will go out of prison and redo what they did before will be eliminated.

Some people who say rapists are rapists then even sending them to life in prison is still merciful compared to death and also there is no life in prison which is perfectly excuted, some of these who are sent to life in prison will go out after 20 or 30 or 40 years so when they go out there will be some of them who will not redo what they did before but some might redo what they did before so the possibility to get one person of the community affected badly is there.

Last thing to say sending to death guilty murderers will safe innocents.

I think I've made it clear that I don't Brit. I think the whole court/penal system needs to be revamped.

nth times on QL :)

Miss Mimi vs Rest of Pro Capital Punishment.

What impact it might have on Pakistan?? I agree with RIP 'they have many, many problems to resolve before they start worrying about the death penalty'

Don't you have faith in the court system ?

You'd have a lot of innocent dead people than Brit.

If a court of law finds the person guilty , then that is the verdict. Allow one appeal in extreme cases. Otherwise go ahead..

At least if they are in prison and the evidence comes back a couple of decades later saying that they were innocent, you can release them and pay them for their hardship. You can't bring them back from the dead.

Without trusting on any sort of evidence you still would like to keep them in prison for life???

I see polls on different websites done every day Brit and most people aren't. They go on and on about being ok with it if the persons guilt is proven "beyond the shadow of a doubt" but you can never prove someone is guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt, so therefore, they aren't for the death penalty.

Pandering to the PC brigade.

If you took a poll today in the UK.. I am sure most would be in favour of the death penalty -

rapist and murderers see the excution of the capital punishment then there will be a percentage of those murderers and rapists will stop doing crimes, and this percentage will go down with time and with the continuation of the capital punishment of death penalty we will reach a time with no murderers and no rapists.

even the media can lie, n it does n highly intelligent ppl believe

Eyewitnesses can lie and camera footage can be faked, manipulated or the person even mistaken for someone else.

If the majority believed in the death penalty Brit, 150 countries wouldn't have gotten rid of it.

That is your prerogative. However, the majority may believe otherwise. Hence the death penalty in Texas etc.

What do you think of Eyewitness or camera footage?

Come on dudes, this is not a personality development discussion to talk about trusting others or trusting yourself.

It is about the whole community.. if you dont trust law or the government...What do you suggest for the aftermath of a crime? Even putting them in prison, life imprisonment without parole or whatever, is also a law.

Do you want all the criminals to live free , Lonius? Until God punishes them?

I don't believe there's such thing as irrefutable evidence. And I don't believe in systems where a persons wealth and position are taken as factors in their judgement.

Also Brit, I most certainly never voted for the death penalty, and would not vote for any leader that wanted it.

good to hear that thelo

He trusts Arabs. :)

whom do u trust then telegraph ? daily mail ?

We give our leaders the power to make such laws on our behalf.

Killing under the cloak of law is also murder.

What about legally forcing a thief to return "100,000 USD" he took from someone.. "A Loot"??

so its ok to let ppl live who destroy other lives

yes you are right.. What is your thought if the case has irrefutable evidence???

No.

u dont support death penalty for a rapist and murderer ?

I don't put my faith in a system that is biased towards the wealthy. Hence, why I don't support the death penalty.

DNA is not 100% landover, it can be contaminated, cops can lie and plant evidence, and more importantly those with the best lawyers can get off regardless of evidence. A quick google search will show you the number of people who've gotten off death row because of new evidence that exonerates them, and will also reveal those who have sadly been executed who were actually innocent.

It is not about innocent person my dear. DNA testing and other methods of modern crime scene science can now effectively eliminate almost all uncertainty as to a person's guilt or innocence.

We put our faith in the system. If it makes a mistake, then so be it.

And if the courts are wrong Brit and the person is actually innocent?

Yes brit for some kind souls that court of law is stone aged. They voice is that "As death penalties have not reduced the % of crime, why should we have it yet"

Death penalty for child rape, murder and treason - If found guilty in a court of law.

Yeah both sides have some strong factors.. anyway I think we already had a huge debate earlier in another thread. :)

Have a great day. Cheers. :))

You can have sympathy for the victim and still see how illogical and pointless the death penalty is.

It is pointless for you cuz you have sympathy for a criminal and it is pointless for me cuz I have sympathy for a victim..

It's a pointless ideology that will create more problems than it solves.

Or maybe it is just an ideology..

I would call it pointless actually.

My point is would you call the action of government "A loot from thief" as you term the government authorizing death penalty "As killer" .

Well if the thief still has the money, than he should be made to return it. However most of the time the money's gone, and the government can say return it all they want, but it's hard to do that from prison. Not to mention if all the money they make when they get out of prison goes to repaying the people they stole from than they will just end up stealing again.

Yes.

Huh? Not sure what you're saying. You mean if the government forces the thief to give back the money?

Just a thought, If a person loots 100,000 USD from someone and the government forces him to return.. would you tell Government has looted the thief???

A step backwards? How can you go further back than the stone age?

Unfortunately Pakistan is a disaster case and they have many, many problems to resolve before they start worrying about the death penalty.

Murder, rape and pedophilia is just provided you have the right man(or woman) beyond a shadow of doubt. If any country's justice system can do so, ie ensure they only put to death those who are truly guilty of the said crimes with no chance of corruption and injustice, then more power to them.

Just a thought, If a person loots 100,000 USD from someone and the government forces him to return.. would you tell Government has looted the thief???

thelo and rip i love the pakistani chemistry between u both

capital punishment for Crimes such as Murder, Rape and Child Abuse.

The Judical System in Pakistan has too many loopholes and hardly anyone sentenced to death get the punishment. Many die in prison waiting either to be excuted or pardoned.

With the amount of killing going on in Pakistan I never thought it went away. Oh wait you mean legal killing by the government not just the citizens.

irrelevant to qatar and qatarliving

DEATH PENALTY IS GOOD FOR THE SAME SORT OF CRIME.

IF SOMEONE KILL YOUR LOVED ONE HE SHOULD ALSO BE KILLED IN THE SAME WAY TO SERVE JUSTICE.