Losing my Religion
In keeping with the Spirit of today. ;)
More Americans say they have no religion.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29585222
A wide-ranging study on American religious life found that the Roman Catholic population has been shifting out of the Northeast to the Southwest, the percentage of Christians in the nation has declined and more people say they have no religion at all.
Fifteen percent of respondents said they had no religion, an increase from 14.2 percent in 2001 and 8.2 percent in 1990, according to the American Religious Identification Survey.
Northern New England surpassed the Pacific Northwest as the least religious region, with Vermont reporting the highest share of those claiming no religion, at 34 percent. Still, the study found that the numbers of Americans with no religion rose in every state.
"No other religious bloc has kept such a pace in every state," the study's authors said.
Catholics on the decline in Northeast
In the Northeast, self-identified Catholics made up 36 percent of adults last year, down from 43 percent in 1990. At the same time, however, Catholics grew to about one-third of the adult population in California and Texas, and one-quarter of Floridians, largely due to Latino immigration, according to the research.
Nationally, Catholics remain the largest religious group, with 57 million people saying they belong to the church. The tradition gained 11 million followers since 1990, but its share of the population fell by about a percentage point to 25 percent.
Christians who aren't Catholic also are a declining segment of the country.
In 2008, Christians comprised 76 percent of U.S. adults, compared to about 77 percent in 2001 and about 86 percent in 1990. Researchers said the dwindling ranks of mainline Protestants, including Methodists, Lutherans and Episcopalians, largely explains the shift. Over the last seven years, mainline Protestants dropped from just over 17 percent to 12.9 percent of the population.
The report from The Program on Public Values at Trinity College in Hartford, Conn., surveyed 54,461 adults in English or Spanish from February through November of last year. It has a margin of error of plus or minus 0.5 percentage points. The findings are part of a series of studies on American religion by the program that will later look more closely at reasons behind the trends.
Organized religion playing less of a role
The current survey, being released Monday, found traditional organized religion playing less of a role in many lives. Thirty percent of married couples did not have a religious wedding ceremony and 27 percent of respondents said they did not want a religious funeral.
About 12 percent of Americans believe in a higher power but not the personal God at the core of monotheistic faiths. And, since 1990, a slightly greater share of respondents — 1.2 percent — said they were part of new religious movements, including Scientology, Wicca and Santeria.
The study also found signs of a growing influence of churches that either don't belong to a denomination or play down their membership in a religious group.
Respondents who called themselves "non-denominational Christian" grew from 0.1 percent in 1990 to 3.5 percent last year. Congregations that most often use the term are megachurches considered "seeker sensitive." They use rock style music and less structured prayer to attract people who don't usually attend church. Researchers also found a small increase in those who prefer being called evangelical or born-again, rather than claim membership in a denomination.
Evangelical or born-again Americans make up 34 percent of all American adults and 45 percent of all Christians and Catholics, the study found. Researchers found that 18 percent of Catholics consider themselves born-again or evangelical, and nearly 39 percent of mainline Protestants prefer those labels. Many mainline Protestant groups are riven by conflict over how they should interpret what the Bible says about gay relationships, salvation and other issues.
Pentecostals stay steady
The percentage of Pentecostals remained mostly steady since 1990 at 3.5 percent, a surprising finding considering the dramatic spread of the tradition worldwide. Pentecostals are known for a spirited form of Christianity that includes speaking in tongues and a belief in modern-day miracles.
Mormon numbers also held steady over the period at 1.4 percent of the population, while the number of Jews who described themselves as religiously observant continued to drop, from 1.8 percent in 1990 to 1.2 percent, or 2.7 million people, last year. Researchers plan a broader survey on people who consider themselves culturally Jewish but aren't religious.
The study found that the percentage of Americans who identified themselves as Muslim grew to 0.6 percent of the population, while growth in Eastern religions such as Buddhism slightly slowed.
You follow, we dont...end off...NEXT
My thoughts are my own, but I doubt my Mum would agree with some of them.
Your Question (Q): "
"as a muslim, only reads the Qu'ran, how come there are a lot of interpretations of it? Which is correct, the interpretation of the Sunni Muslim or the Shiite?
VB: The literal Arabic translation is more or less same, while interpretation is different in somecases but generally there is concensus. I know very well, which one is perfect and correct. Once you become muslim then we could discuss further on the controversial topics bcoz you will not understand the core / major diferrences between Shia, Sunni, Wahabism, etc, etc. FYI I am Sunni Muslim.
Q: Would you agree with the interpretation of the suicide bombers? Only one book yet among you there is still division. how can you tell which is correct and which isn't? Muslims disagree with the terrorism done on Iraq and Afghanistan, but other muslims found Osama Bin Laden a hero.
VB: I don't accept or approve the theory of suicide bombers, it is unislamic.
Fighting and kiling in retaliation or for survival is purely a personal approach and should not be linked to Islam (Iraq and Afghanistan).
My personal belief, I find Osama as a Phantom or Superman character created by WEST to fight against and give a bad name to a Peaceful and fast spreading Religion named ISLAM (means PEACE).
Q:How can you say that the book is not tainted and the bibles is, when in fact you among yourselves have different interpretation of it.
VB: I answered this in my earlier post above that pick up any copy of Quran around the world and you will find that it is 100% same transcript in Arabic (without errors). While Bible has many versions available in the market with old, new teataments, etc.
it is been transfered initailly through heart to heart and then booked; now the holy quran is a ONLY Standard book in the world, which is been remembered by heart. It is actually Quran's miracle.
Ay'up everyone, I lost me Faith once, fortunately she was getting a little forgetful in her old age and I found her in the Freezer aisle at the Carrefour hiding frozen chicken in her coat.
A lesson for us all, if you have lost something, it is generally in the freezer aisle at the Carrefour.
Happy hunting.
___________________________________________________
I say what I like and I bloody well like what I say
Yes, you are right, scmasse, and that thin line is not thin as it looks.
VB...if you, as a muslim, only reads the Qu'ran, how come there are a lot of interpretations of it??? Which is correct, the interpretation of the Sunni Muslim or the Shiite?? Would you agree with the interpretation of the suicide bombers???
Only one book yet among you there is still division. how can you tell which is correct and which isn't??? Muslims disagree with the terrorism done on Iraq and Afghanistan, but other muslims found Osama Bin Laden a hero and their way the right way of islam. Which is which??? How can you say that the book is not tainted and the bibles is, when in fact you among yourselves have different interpretation of it.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
there are many wrong hadith's been created by enemies of Islam, so without denial, we need to refer it to all auspicious islamic scholar for clarification (if needed), considering the fact that there is not a single clash between Quran and Sunnah.
Believe me, I am not at all an expert about Islam and hadith, but these are the basics, which I feel every muslim should know.
The only thing that separates you, coelacanth, from atheism is that instead of saying you don't know how the universe was created you attribute it to a "god".
As an atheist I believe that our brains are incapable of understanding what exactly the universe is or how it was made. We are limited in our concept of time and space. We have these limitations based on the world we evolved in. Our perceptions of the universe can never show the full complexity is has.
What do I believe in? Randomness.
insulting mode, not acceptable and absolutely wrong.
Once you accept the faith then you could revert from all your present / past sins and ask for Allah's mercy and forgiveness for your misdeeds.
Once you feel ashamed, he is always ready to forgive you.
Ask for his mercy anytime before you Die.
Gypsy: Noways, a woman will go to hell, just she didn't wear a veil or celebrate valentines day.
After accepting Islam, InshaAllah, you are cleaned from all your sins LIKE you have born TODAY and your heart will start liking all HIS instructions, whatever Allah prefered and liked for you.
All muslims final destination is Heaven (jannah) But due to our sins we will see hell as well....
"May Allah forbid Hell on us and give us His Forgiveness and Mercy for our Sins we committed knowingly and unknowingly....Ameen"
Definitely, muslims will get punished for their wrong doings and get cleaned before they send to Jannah.
I believe and agree to all commands of Allah and follow as much as possible, whatever we are unable to do due to my own weaknesses, we ask for His mercy and forgiveness.
Im not being insulting VB just that you said it was only the bible was incomplete and I found two hadiths which are strange to say the least.
I apologise if you believe they are true.
Stuck where? In the mud? Don't think the Quran can help me out of the mud.
Gypsy,
I can only say:
"God is closer to you than your jugular vein: Quran"
So listen to Him and follow Him. Quran is only a guidence, refer to it when you are struck...
I must admit my eyesight got worse through my teenage years, perhaps the hadith is true.
But which commands do you follow and which dont' you VB? There's so many different "fatwahs" and interpretations. Which interpretation do you choose? Do you believe a woman goes to hell if she doesn't veil? Do you believe you go to hell if you celebrate valentines day?
again you are entering into wrong zones.
All these are secondary in front of Allah, How you follow and What way to follow.
Learn from Basics (foundation) which is must then make the whole building, apartment or villa.
The basic is believing (Faith) in ALLAH, the almighty and His prophet Mohammed (peace be upon Him) his messenger from open and depth in heart, then on his holy book (Quraan) and on all holy books sent before, all angels and Jinns......
Discussion on valentinee, right of women, veils are very well defined but all secondary and make part of your deeds (like building or villa).
Atleast you are safe, once you accept Islam as faith....
Say Shaadah...after ablution as
"La ilaha illellah, Mohammedur rasoolalah" you are muslim
hadiths are funny though:
Hadith: During sexual intercourse, man must not look at his wife’s sexual organ; for, this may cause blindness.
Fayz ul Kadir
Hadith: When you witness a fire, say God is great and there is no greater than Him (Allahuakbar), and you will have extinguished the fire.
Ramuzal, Hadiths
So you don't think some Islamic scholars saying Valentines is ok and some others saying it isn't, isn't a clash? What about the veil? What about the rights of women? There are hundreds of clashes between religious scholars about their interpretations of the Quran.
but there is clarity if one follows a single path rather checking thousand different sources.
Gypsy- please don't enter into controversial areas; we being humble follower, choose whatever way Quraan ask us to follow and get approved by hadith and sunnah.
Please note that there is no clash between the instructions from Quraan and Sunnah, if in doubt refer to Islamic scholars.
Plato-All good deeds have worth and value only after Faith (Imaan)....refer to Surah Al Asr..
وَالْعَصْرِ
إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ
إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالْحَقِّ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالصَّبْرِ
Brother Victor
Being Islam our religion, it doesn't mean that muslins aren't Deist too, remember what is said in Al-Baqhara about if you find something new that it isn't written in the Quran to prove that it's a correct deed?
Mohammed Ali, the boxeur, said many times, it's what you do what matters and not which religion you follow, if you do good deeds, God/Allah will always reward you.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
victor you are being naughty forgetting about sunnah and hadith are just as jumbled as the bible. I mean come on you have "weak" and "strong"
The interpretation of these is what causes most of the problems of perception of islam.
Same scripture a thousand interpretations and no Allah telling you which interpretation is right.
I didn't read your whole post hence could not answer hope it is clear
I said as per the 'religion of Islam' and read Quraan for better understanding
...it is not me or any individual to decide the fate BUT the result is clearly DECLARED in my Holy Book.
We worship our LORD Allah, the almighty and there is no God but ALLAH, as he commanded, and that is my religion.
Bible is been corrupted by priest and have many versions, while pickup Quran around the world you will find same scripture.
I said as per the 'religion of Islam' and read Quraan for better understanding
...it is not me or any individual to decide the fate.
We worship our LORD Allah, the almighty and there is no God but ALLAH, as he commanded, and that is my religion.
I didn't read your whole post hence could not answer hope it is clear
Roadster...i was in your situation long time back...i have lots of questions about the authenticity and rationality of religion. I know there is God, but is not the one being portrayed in the books. Evolution is true...that everything started from the BIG BANG THEORY...but before the BANG, there is GOD.
Imagine the evolution still on the process...Why do northeners's skin looks pale and those near the Equator dark? We adapt to our environment,and we evolve. A dark person will interbreed with a caucasian, and they're offspring is less darker. We never came from monkeys. Monkeys and apes are of different species than we are. We came from Neandarthals who "look like" apes.
Everything written on religious books are both Myth and History, and most of the time exxagerated by the writer, just like the Greeks. They should not be the basis of your existence. Who is more knowledgable of your time, the person who lived thousand years before you were born or yourself? Before, they throw stones. Now they throw bullets.
The bible says, "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", and then on the next chapter you will see about forgiving others. conflicting, isn't it?
Simple rule, no complications: Do unto others what you want others do unto you.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
I have just not been able to fit what i believe into a any of the main relgions. Part of me wonders if its just some big experiment, that the universe is in some massive petri dish. On earth so much is controlled by chance and risk. Winning the lottery is very improbable but it happens, much like faling out of a building and surviving, when people get shot and a bullet misses an organ by 5mm. Crazy stuff happens but can all be attributed to chance. The human body and humans in general are fascinating especially for me when you can have things such as the placebo effect, or parents lifting trapped kids from under cars etc. There is still lots to unlock about us. Some autistic people can do some mentally superhuman things like David Tammet.
The building blocks of the universe perhaps were maybe created by something, and now the experiment has been left to run its course. But what we do see feel and hear is not influenced or controlled by an invisible person.
Adam and Eve theory falls down at high school science, interbreeding eventually causes horrendous genetic defects. Wheres all the dinosaurs?
If it's not you to decide, then what made you decide their fate here:
"Rationally, a buddhist monk or (mother Teresa or Mahatma Gandhi for instance)seems in our views better person while comparing to a terrorist........but missing the faith in ONE god that is ALLAH, is enough to take him to Hell.....I am not sure what punishment may Allah give them. Allah knows the BEST!"
Such prejudice and denial from your part...you missed answering my question...or intentionally ignored it???
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Not to mention destroying Soddom and Gomorrah because of it's "sin" and then the one family you decided where not "sinful" start getting drunk and having incestous sex.
Nice.
Gypsy...who knows, there "might" be a talking snake...i've seen a talking parrot before. hehehe
If mankind came from ADAM and EVE, how come their 2 sons were the only ones written in the book??? It's unfair for those "other" children who've had lived with them not being mentioned in the book. I imagine Eve giving birth to 600 children on her lifetime, and telling their children to have sex with each other to multiply.
That is sick, don't you think?? But that's how they would interpret the start of mankind, from ADAM and EVE. if there's other explanation, i am welcome for correction.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
VB...who are you to decide who goes to hell??? Does your religion gave you the power to decide who goes to hell and who doesn't?
Only God can judge who goes to hell or not...not you, not anyone from your religion. So keep your mouth shut for claiming that you know everything about God coz you don't. You know everything about your Prophet, but not God. You will kill and die for your prophet, but not for your God.
Tell me, who do you worship, your religion or your God???
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Yes and a talking snake really did kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden. The world really was flooded and Lot's wife turned to a pillar of salt, and a man did walk on water. Yes...no mythology there at all.
Sorry VB, you may believe that your brain has limited capacity, but my brain does not. It's unlimited capacity is what seperates us from the apes after all.
it is purely based on mythology (myth, fictions), which is also proved if you know about the case of 'Ramsetu' in south India, which is non-existent.
I noticed some deity in India has resemblance (in life) with prophets of Allah, who came long before Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him). Like Jesus is prophet in Islam and God in Christianity. Hindu prays to certain deity, who were might be prophet of Allah but made God by Hindus.
secondly, if you read the stories told in "Holy Quraan' are mostly proven historically and scientifically.
That's is the reason, I always request all Readers and Qler's to let use and apply personal efforts to learn and read Quran with its meanings to understand and differntiate between the facts and fictions.
Both a suicide bomber (who kills innocent life) and a buddhist monk, as per Islam both will go to Hell.
Rationally, a buddhist monk or (mother Teresa or Mahatma Gandhi for instance)seems in our views better person while comparing to a terrorist........but missing the faith in ONE god that is ALLAH, is enough to take him to Hell.....I am not sure what punishment may Allah give them. Allah knows the BEST!
But definitely get a different treatments, in the eyes of Allah on the Day of judgement depending on their Deeds.
Dear Gypsy, you are again wrong because your brains has limited capacity and understand what you see.
while your heart decides and differentiate what you feel and accept the reality.....
Have you ever been in ambiguous situation prior taking certain decision, When your brains cursed you for taking stupid decision and your heart appreciated that you really did a Great JOB? Similarly Reglion is a belief and feeling, which is difficult to explain in words.
Trust it make some sense to you.
AAtheism is so old school. More intellectuals lately like Christopher Hitchens (author of the masterpiece “GOD IS NOT GREAT”)have gone anti Atheists. It is secularism that make sense.
I only say ANSWER prayers as a metaphor.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
My God doesn't answer prayers. My God lets us work out our own problems and leaves us to sort ourselves out. Everything happens for a reason.
Gypsy...Deism is about believing in existence of God. It doesn't conform with what religion is saying about God. I personally condemn what is written in their book because they inflict fear on their followers, and they use that fear as a leverage, saying, "if you don't follow what is written, then you'll rot in hell"...or "believe or else..."...
Deism is based on rational thinking. God is everywhere. He doesn't favor any race. God answers prayers ONLY if you work on it. That's who my God is.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
MS...about religion not being made by man...it's funny how you explain it. What made you so sure that your prophet was the last one??? Is it because HE SAID SO??? What made you so sure that after your prophet's death, no other "messengers" appeared? Is it again because "HE SAID SO"??? So the God portrayed in your religion is BIAS and FAVORS only those who joins you.
That's a sick GOD. Same as the Bible GOD who kills innocent children for the benefit of the Israelites.
My God doesn't favor and is just. Simple rule He implied. What you do to others will be done to you. That's the universal rule. No need to read 1000 pages of text. Just read one line.
There is only one God.. Laa illaha illalah...but he has no messenger to create a religion.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
what happened after 1400?? Were scientists repressed like in the christian world?
VB there were famous scientists in the christain world but they were horibly tortured and killed by the state in ancient times for saying things against popular religious belief. A kind of Taleban of their time. Ever since scientists have been wary of religion.
e,g Galileo the astronomer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair
It's hard for me to confirm being a Deist, because I really believe in nothing that religions put forward. I don't believe in an afterlife per say or a God that blesses or condemns people.
VB...all the proof that you were mentioning are mere assumptions that it is the revelation of God. If you are going to base it on the books, what happens with the Gods of the Greeks whom they said was real??? The Gods of the Hindus???
If you can explain to me why only your belief and your book is the correct path to God, then i would like to hear it. I don't believe in my God choosing whom he would bless. God will judge you not of your religion but by your deeds, and good deeds doesn't need religion. A suicide bomber and a Buddhist monk...who you think God will bless??? A person who yells "God is Great" and kills infidels, or the person who lives in solitary and don't kill even a worm?
Explain that with rationality and not by your book.
I applaud you Gypsy for affirming that you are a Deist and not an Atheist.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Agree Coelcanth, I am a diest not an athiest, though I do tend to argue against the idea of the God presented in the religious texts.
Yes VB, to believe in religion you to need to see from your heart not your brain, because if you use your brain you'll realize how false religion is.
do we really need to prove and explain scientifically that religion is not man-made.
Common on guys, there are several examples given but one need eyes to see from their hearts and not brains.
Please browse these sites:
www.islamicity.com/Science/scientists
www.islamicity.com
No Religion should not be associated with Atheism, as Atheism means NO BELIEF in EXISTENCE OF GOD. I have no religion, but i am not an ATHEIST. I am a DEIST.
DEISM isn't a religion, but just a belief. Same with Atheism, so it should not be associated as another type of religion.
Religion is more political than belief. Religion is more of a routine to be done or else... Religion is made to scare people to believe in something by force...there was no religion before...so what's the big deal if people started to realize that religion is nothing but crap and walk away?
Religion is made by man...same as the books that they believe.
It's not because things are difficult that we don't dare, it's because we don't dare that makes things difficult!
Roadtester, Gypsy, MS....Peace Guys.
War never means with guns all the time, it could be with clashes of words, views and even thoughts. It is not necessary be with others, war could be within Self, Personal esteem, Ego, Anger. Trust you guys agree with me.
Believing in self and in supreme being is half faith but not enough to be a True Believer, during the journey of seeking the true path, if somebody dies, it is in the hands of Allah to judge that person and not we the believers.
My humble request to all to keep continue the journey of seeking/searching the true path rather making a judgment at this stage and stop.
Allah knows the Best...
May Allah guide and, provide strength to follow and keep us on the straight path shown by our Prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings be upon Him)...Ameen.
M.S in ancient egypt all the internal organs were removed before burial, the 'surgeons' of those days would have seen many bodes, people used to die much earlier in those days and death in child birth much more common than now. "surgeons" or priests of the day would have observed foetal development.
It's really not that difficult MS. Considering how many woman died in childbirth or while pregnant back then it really isn't that much of a streatch to imagine that they simply autopsied woman and different stages of pregnancy.
Formation of the baby inside the mother's belly, "formation" for nine months. If you cut them open everything will stop, unless they had advanced technology, there is noway they could know how the baby is formed inside the mother's belly for nine months unless they had "ultrasound".
"Better in time...down just like that"
I would guess that they performend autopsy's and cut them open MS. Considering we've had knives since the stone age.
After all Pliny the Elder (born Ad 59) theorized that the name Caesar came from one of Julius Caesars ancestors who was born through Caesarian section. Julius Caesar was born 100BC. So that means that Caesarian sections were being performed almost 1000 years, if not more, before the birth of Mohammed. In order to perform a Caesaran section you need to know where the child is placed in the womb. So I would suggest that it was common knowledge by 570 AD.
M.S - well i personally believe I help people because i want to, I dont do it because allah or some other god made me.
The problem is that religion makes out the humans by their nature are evil and MUST need religion to keep order. Athiests realise this isn't true and you have free will to choose to be bad or good.
Back to the plane issue, well obviosuly scientists dont do experiments on people!!!!! What happens is you have crash/accident reconstuction. Staticians collect data every year on how many people do things like skydiving, these could be civilians or militiary. Unfortunatly there are accidents, in some cases peoples parachutes have not opened but they have still survived. this gives you a probability of surviving falling from the sky e.g 1 in 100000 (that number is made up by the way)
Take car accidents - if you analysed a road where people kept dying - you would be saying - inshalla - gods will. Now if someone collects statistics they will find the junction that is bad, they will then redesign it to make it safer and then "miracle" less accident. i,e God wasn't angry with that roundabout/junction and let people die on it, it was their actions.
I am not fully sure if it was you "making fun" of me or what so. But in both cases I am not concerned.
Crop circles in the Quran?? Where did you get that from? You haven't even read my previous posts to know what I am talking about. Obviously that post wasn't addressed to you.
I don't know quiet much, but I belive I know much more than those who don't know anything at all in history.
Peace
"Better in time...down just like that"
M.S - please stop :D or go on the road as a tip-top comedy act.
You are not very au fait with history, are you?
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Sorry my bad my bad! But even if it's 1600years ago how did Egyptians and Greeks know the formation of a baby inside the mother's belly without any sort of technology or ultrasound? It's in the Quran. How did human being possibly know that, without any kind of technology or advanced knowledge. And about the pyramids and crop circles...Still science hasn't proven any of the above, in the Quran it's all there.
"Better in time...down just like that"
MS. Muhammed was born in 570 AD....Are you trying to say that the Quran existed BEFORE your prophet did?
Exactly "written" ONLY!
5000 years ago I insist, go refer back to some "realistic" information. That is not against Islam.That's why Egyptians and Greeks knew the descriptions of pregnancy, it existed already; from Quran.
"Better in time...down just like that"
As I said you're post are hilarious, they don't even make sense. So you can keep those words to yourself. When you reply pick the right words to say, then speak up. Don't just talk drivel.
Good to know that you know when the world started.
"Better in time...down just like that"
MS, I suggest you read some history yourself as the Quran wasn't written 5000 years ago, it was written 1600 years ago, and there were already detailed descriptions of pregancy and reproduction by that time curtosey of the Egyptians and Greeks.
I read about those religions, but when only knowing what they believe in makes me quit wanting to know more; because they make no sense at all. I have seen you’ve mentioned all other religions except Islam. This is the religion that you have to learn the most. Everything in Islam makes perfect sense. And that was proven by a lot of scientist. There is a verse in the Quran that says how the baby is formed in the mother’s belly, and that was 5000 years ago, when God descended the Quran and was spread by our messenger Mohamed. And till today not one scientist discovered how this was possibly known. When 5000 years ago there was no any technology invented yet, nothing at all; to specify not an ultrasound. Could you possibly tell me how did this happen? You can tell yourself, because I already know the answer. Could you tell me how are those crop circles discovered on earth, were made? How the pyramids where built, and why in this specific shape; and how come they’re so strong and lived for how many years now, and no one couldn’t destroy them? Quran answers all those questions. But it’s not as easy as you read, you have to know everything about Islam, read the Quran, understand it; then you get the answers.
The problem is Atheism, which has no meaning at all, is not a religion. So it doesn’t include faith or comprehension because it’s based on nothing, it makes nothing, it proves nothing; it has no meaning in life. It doesn’t even exist, so why would people give a slight attention to it.
When you’re falling off a plane you wouldn’t think of 99% or 1% or any percentages at all, you would be asking God for help; you will be thinking “Oh God I am going to die!”
“Science shows that people have survived their parachutes not opening it...” Sorry are you kidding me about that? If science actually did that, then how deadly science is. They risked a life of a human being, to see if a person without a parachute could possibly survive or not? And you’re basically following this deadly choice? Or was it proven by science that a person jumping off a plane without a parachute can survive. How was that proven and when? If it’s true. A person survives when jumping off a plane, because of God’s will. Life is about risk and probability but not all about risk and probability. Life is so much more.
If you think that belief makes a society, then that’s another funny quote from you.
And what are you talking about? You fed those poor people because you felt bad for them you thought maybe what if you were at their place, how miserable your life would be; but those people if you don’t feed them; they have a greater one to depend on, Allah. Because he’s always there, all the time and everywhere. You fed those poor people because you possibly felt what they’re feeling. It’s inside of you, feelings and emotions. Society has nothing to do with it. It’s a feeling within you, born inside of you, by God; when you came to this world. And those actions and virtues came from a peaceful soul, mind and heart, born within you as I said. Science can’t prove this.
Who told you that praying doesn’t bring peace, did you ever pray before. If you pray and don’t find this world peaceful well at least you will feel peacefulness inside of you. Which will always lead to putting guns down.
"Better in time...down just like that"
I think we all will end up 6 feet under. so the saying goes "made from dust, return to dust" No further than that. So what the fuss?
M.s Lol lol lol know nothing about other religions, at school you were exposed to all the religions of the world, we were taught at school about, judaism, christianity, buddism, hinduism, sikhism, zorastism. Were you??
The problems is that athiesm is too difficult for faith based people to comprehend.
I believe that you believe in allah and that mohammed was his prophet etc and thats fine.
I do believe in science, I believe if i fell out of a plane there would be 99% probability i would die. Science shows that people have survived their parachutes not opening it is a small number but it happens. Life is all about risk and probability.
When I was in bahrain their were several begging muslim ladies, who i gave money and food too. I did this because I believe in the virtuous circle, I believe in society it is individual actions, not belief that make a just society. Praying doesn't bring peace, putting down guns does.
LOL Ms. Yes start a war against the irreligious. You can start your own little Spanish Inquisition to figure out which people believe in God and which don't.
Also the world is between 4.5 and 4.6 billion years old (give or take a millenia).
i think good health, security and education are the drivers behind this trend. I was raised catholic but stopped believing in god at a young age. the whole thing doesnt really make much sense. Nevertheless my moral compass is based on religious values, whether i like it or not.
Personally i think Im better off without a religion. Others can do as they please. I do feel quite strongly that one should not try to spread their religion.
Live and let be!
Well, tell those 1.1 billion people including you. Get ready to enjoy your afterlife, that's if you even believe in the afterlife.Your post are hilarious.
Let's make a war against you guys, the whole world against 1.1 billion and let's see who's wining. Too funny, that I can't laugh.
As for those who are lying about their beliefs, deep down they believe in God; so one day they always get back to who truly made them.
Sorry, but the way you put your words together makes me realize that you know nothing about history, science and yes "other things".
Religion is not made by man, it's proven by a human being made by God, a "messenger" if you ever heard of that.
I don't think you read history. Do you know when the world started? Why am I even asking you that question, I will sure get the wrong answer.
Again you're making me feel like the world started in 2009.
May God place serenity in your heart. Amen
"Better in time...down just like that"
About the insult, I do insult those who don’t deserve respect.
“I am so proud of you and sure Allah is too. God bless you.” This been said after this have been said
“We try to visualise everything, whatever been taught to us. Using our own/others experience, knowledge and intelligence to interpret everything in life. This is the general applied human behaviour.
While religion is purely based on blind faith and belief, which is against the general human intelligence; which can never be understood within the limited capacity of human brains.
My humble efforts is to explain the basic concepts of Religion and human behaviors with limited strength.
Allah knows the Best.”
“…sure Allah too” How could you possibly understand this when you know nothing about religions, lets specify “Islam”
If you think mentioning “sure Allah is too” is talking on God’s behalf then again read, learn, think and talk. I can’t explain this to a person that doesn’t believe in religions or even God’s existence. And on the other hand, a person won’t understand this when they don’t believe in any of the mentioned above.
If I am walking down the street, and saw poor people, yes I would help. I wouldn’t help because it’s “correct” (it’s too funny how you picked that word) I would do it, because I will feel pity for those people. Pity is a feeling inside you that you gained from Allah, not out of the blue. Science could never explain those feelings, and we didn’t get them from nowhere, Allah placed it in us. Why you don’t go act like an animal or kill, steal and be evil because you have dignity, virtue and respect to yourself. And these self-feelings you got them from God, someone greater than you. God is an indescribable force, which no one can ever have or be (in Islam). Another thing, when you’re falling off, let’s say a plane, what do you say? “God please help me” you don’t say “Science please help me” or “Nothing please help me” or stay silent. Even if you don’t scream it out loud, you will scream it inside of you. Because God is inside us all, he’s ever where; all around this world. You can’t see him but he can. You can’t feel him but he can.
And to let you know, God doesn’t punish those who don’t help poor people. When you do the good, it makes you a better person on earth, and when you’re a better person God loves you more. And who wouldn’t want to be loved by God.
"Better in time...down just like that"
Actually MS, an estimated 1.1 billion people in the world are athiest or non-religious. Which is number 3 after Christianity and Islam http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
And how many of those Christians and Muslims are lying about their beliefs?
As for do I believe in history? Um...yes, and science and all those other things that prove that religion was made by man.
M.S - i will ignore the insult, you were the one who felt that they are able to judge on Allahs behalf:
M.S said Victor ...
I am so proud of you and sure Allah is too. God bless you.
Perhaps you will understand when people complain about the "ego" that religions have.
M.S you got completly misunderstood what i said. I said
praying everyday = not always mean good person.
Its your actions and how you treat others, if a man is sick in the street would you help them or would you walk buy? If you did help them would you do it because you are worried you god will punish you or because you feel it is correct?
God finds those who find themselves.. Once you will find yourself, it will be much easier to understand others and especially the God.
Why did Buddha search for elightment for so many years and travelled so much to find the truth.. I am a strong believer in spritualism, to lose yourself is to find God. Until and when one gives up his ego and expression of self interest he/she can not find the truth.
God to every means differently.. One see God has the provider and sustainer and worship him according, others see God as spritual being out there somewhere or even within them selfs..
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HE WHO DARES WINS
If you think "praying everyday" is what makes you a good person, then you know nothing about religions. You haven't even bothered yourself to know about it. Speak for Allah? Where did you see that? Or maybe you got blinded by "unreal" thoughts coming from your "nonexistent" world, it's just too funny.
You know nothing about religions so stop mingling your spoken nonsense with what religions are all about.
"Better in time...down just like that"
"so so so many" maybe 0.000000000000000000000000000000001% (even less) people, including you. What you talking about. Go see how many human beings are converting into religions everyday, you have no idea about what's going on in this world. You're living in your own unreal dream. You don't even no nothing about history, that's if you "believe" in history. Again you're making me feel like the world started in 2009.
Wish I could show you more hatred and tell you what you truly are on earth right now, but best that can describe it is "you are nothing" for me you don't exist at all. Keep all your words to yourself."Religion the most dangerous force" reading this makes me laugh, you need to get educated.
Do never expect me to respect you. Because you don't exist to me. You're talking non sense, seriously.
"Better in time...down just like that"
who are you talking to? am confused
Platao: thank you ...
we try to visualise everything, whatever been taught to us. Using our own/others experience, knowledge and intelligence to interpret everything in life. This is the general applied human behaviour.
While religion is purely based on blind faith and belief, which is against the general human intelligence; which can never be understood within the limited capacity of human brains.
My humble efforts is to explain the basic concepts of Religion and human behaviours with limited strength.
Allah knows the Best.
Roadtester: Right on the spot
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Bibo: Regarding afterlife, i advise you to read Allan Kardec books, they also talk about the afterlife and spirits world.
In case you are wondering, i'm a muslim.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Thats interesting that you feel you are able to speak for allah - and say who is best. When did allah give you this responsibility?? :)
The big leap is getting people to realise just because you pray every day etc doesn't automatically mean your a good person.
Yes, but it's religion that's providing an outlet for that ego, that's being misused to manipulate the masses, and since God (if he does exist) doesn't seem particularly interested in stoping those misusing it, it's becoming and increasingly dangerous tool.
I can see where you are coming from, the day I judge religion by the statements/behaviors of those who practice it, is the day I seaze to be christian.
the most dangerious force in the world today is not religion, it is the "ego" that makes humans un-willing to respect each other, un-willing to love each other, unwilling to respect the earth, the beleifs and disbeliefs of others... endless list.
HAHAHAHA. Thank you M.S for showing us all the hatred, bigotry and ignorance that is turning so so so many people away from religion, and what makes religion the most dangerous force in the world today. Good for you.
I am so proud of you and sure Allah is too. God bless you.
Gypsy,feel sorry for yourself, because just to let you know your wasting time of your life feeling sorry for me, when I am proud to be a Muslim.
You're nonexistent to me and to so many people.
Stop running from the truth just face it.
Raodtester, it's funnier the other way, when you found out you're the ONE wrong and so many non believers like your guts.
Peace
"Better in time...down just like that"
It would be funny if jews, christians or muslims actually found when they died, the other god was correct!!!! lol
VB please dont use "intelligence" when talking about religion, which is about unbased faith and belief.
Relgion causes more death than life.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
That's funny M.S cause I feel sorry for you.
I feel sorry for you.
"Better in time...down just like that"
when it comes to this topic, she thinks she owns the world! She will realized it one day (or one night)! Lol!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
God lives in You Gypsy. So dont look else where..
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HE WHO DARES WINS
You can't teach experience...
Explanations? So far VB nobody has given an explanation or any proof of God whatsoever. All people keep spouting is a lot of dogma and rhetoric, but no fact. Sorry, but I only accept facts and so far the facts say that religion was created by man, and there's no big sky Daddy looking down at me with self-righteous anger.
Anyway, I'm now a devoted follower of the church of the flying sphaghetti monster.
explanation, evidence are required to accept the facts of life?
Insha Allah, I still keeping hope that one day you will realise, identify and recognise your creator....Ameen
Please remember, you have to continue your journey to seek and search the straight and right path.
Just Curious Gypsy...are you an atheist since the day you were born? are your parents are atheist too since they were born?...if so happened you were a believer before this boldness of claiming """no god thing""".. then i must say you missed something...this God whose infinite power created the world for us to live in that you deny is the same God who is the giver of our life...strength and wisdom to choose right from wrong...and it seems to me..this wisdom you have right now overshadowed the belief that indeed there is God because you might have thought that you are pretty intelligent to know everthing of what's best for your life...choosing to be moral is not enough Gypsy..do remember that we have souls to feed also *(that if you still believe you have soul)..feed it well so when your time on earth is over you'll know where it goes... so what am I going to do??? pray for you so He will continue to look after you....God bless
Because it's just a philosophy, or a school of thought, it's not a living thing. You can respect the people who came up with the philosophies, but not the philosophy. You can agree or disagree with a philosophy, but it doesn't demand automatic agreement/respect.
may somebody with special IQ and high quality of brain cells assist.
In other words, religion is a way, ideas, defined principles and rules of life; the followers are keeping it alive by practising everyday then WHY it is not live?
I can no more respect religion then I can respect a rock VB. I can respect the person who created the religion, I can respect a person who practices that religion, I cannot respect religion as it is simply ideas and not alive.
religion is very sensitive subject and close to people, so if you respect people, we need to respect their religion as well (what they follow in privacy or public).
This never meant that you are promoting what they believe in unless you participate in their religious gathering or celebrations.
I will respect people VB, but not religion. If I was to respect religion that would mean I believe in the things it promotes, which I do not.
Qler's have made me realised that I used to tell people what to do but it has become a Habit (good or bad) which is very difficult to change now.
We need to be flexible, be open minded to accept people, who are so different in their looks, life style, attitude, cultures and religion; similarly respect what they believe in. There is no harm in that.
Open your cool and think tank....
No I don't respect religion. To my knowledge religion isn't a person therefore it can't demand respect. However I do respect many religious people, and even have a great deal of respect for many religious leaders, including Desmond Tutu, Pope John Paul II (who died a few years ago) and the Dhali Lama.
Thanks for telling me I'm always right though. I like to think so. :)
you respect? You don't respect religion or those who have religion. You don't respect anyone who opposes you, how's your life going? I'm really surprised that a human being like you exist! Or are you also not respecting yourself?Me, I respect you or anybody else that comes in this forum. Sometimes, I am right and admittedly, sometimes I am wrong. But to you, you are always right! You should be the president of the whole world and let's see where will be heading! Good afternoon to you!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
OHMIFLYSPHAGHTTIMONSTER I'm a convert! I've found the one true faith. And I LOVE my new rules to live by:
The Eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts"
1) I'd really rather you didn't act like a sanctimonious holier-than-thou ass when describing my noodly goodness. If some people don't believe in me, that's okay. Really, I'm not that vain. Besides, this isn't about them so don't change the subject.
2) I'd really rather you didn't use my existence as a means to oppress, subjugate, punish, eviscerate, and/or, you know, be mean to others. I don't require sacrifices, and purity is for drinking water, not people.
3)I'd really rather you didn't judge people for the way they look, or how they dress, or the way they talk, or, well, just play nice, okay? Oh, and get this into your thick heads: woman = person. man = person. Samey = Samey. One is not better than the other, unless we're talking about fashion and I'm sorry, but I gave that to women and some guys who know the difference between teal and fuchsia.
4) I'd really rather you didn't indulge in conduct that offends yourself, or your willing, consenting partner of legal age AND mental maturity. As for anyone who might object, I think the expression is "go fuck yourself," unless they find that offensive in which case they can turn off the TV for once and go for a walk for a change.
5) I'd really rather you didn't challenge the bigoted, misogynistic, hateful ideas of others on an empty stomach. Eat, then go after the bitches.
6)I'd really rather you didn't build multi million-dollar synagogues / churches / temples / mosques / shrines to my noodly goodness when the money could be better spent (take your pick):
Ending poverty
Curing diseases
Living in peace, loving with passion, and lowering the cost of cable
I might be a complex-carbohydrate omniscient being, but I enjoy the simple things in life. I ought to know. I AM the creator.
7) I'd really rather you didn't go around telling people I talk to you. You're not that interesting. Get over yourself. And I told you to love your fellow man, can't you take a hint?
8) I'd really rather you didn't do unto others as you would have them do unto you if you are into, um, stuff that uses a lot of leather/lubricant/vaseline. If the other person is into it, however (pursuant to #4), then have at it, take pictures, and for the love of Mike, wear a CONDOM! Honestly, it's a piece of rubber. If I didn't want it to feel good when you did it I would have added spikes, or something.
Pastafarism is the true religion!! ;p Gypsy you will like it -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
www.venganza.org
You weren't suppose to expect science to prove God's existence, but if God wanted so, he would have made science prove his existence. God's existence was proven million years ago, before you even existed.
As a Muslim, in my religion no one knows how God looks like? Where he came from? And why are we here?
We have a lot of description in the Quran of what God is. But they couldn't figure out what it meant exactly. But messengers and one of the closest messengers to God (which God loves a lot) Prophet Mohamed, saw God. (and many other messenger, but they all saw him in different ways) God knew that a human can't resist seeing him, as for our minds, hearts and souls,they might not be able to standstill, survive or even believe. When Prophet Mohamed saw God, at that very moment God gave him the strength to standstill and not stop his heart. It's not like he saw him face to face, he gave the hardest of what he could see and hardly believe, but he talked him and that was proven by great messengers.
Gypsy if you don't have respect for religions,don't expect to have respect to "humans" themselves. You follow something that is not considered in this world, you follow your own rules and laws. You possibly fear a human like you.If you don't believe in God, or believe in any religion and have no respect to any religion and of course God. Then you don't believe in anything and you don't respect anything or anyone. How do you want answers to your questions, when you just want to see what your eyes are seeing? You're making me feel like the world started in 2009.
"Better in time...down just like that"
Wow, the things I could "prove" having the proof bar set so low...
I could proclaim myself ruler of the universe if I wanted...now to just write up some documents and bury them for a few thousand years and maybe my progeny will be worshiped!
Oh yes of course, 2000 years ago with talking snakes and burning bushes. :P
God did prove his own exsitence.. wish I can elaborate further :)
like i do..just check your one dollar bill...it's all there. hava nice day.
So far science hasn't proved God's existence Bibo. So far God has not even proven God's own existence.
M.S. I believe in lots of things, just not your God or your religion. I for one have no respect for religion.
As I said I fear nothing but God. And I am not fearing an afterlife, I would fear it only when I know what I am doing is wrong, at that moment I would be scared to face God with all my sins.Even if I have done bad things that wouldn't please God. I ask for forgiveness and at last god is merciful and forgiving for than any human on this earth.
I certainly do not respect those who are not deserved to be respected. Atheism is not a religion,and will never be considered one. And how can I possibly respect someone who do not believe in anything? Because, as I said, not believing in God's existence, is believing in "nothing".
"Better in time...down just like that"
Answer to what my Gypsy Gal?
That we exist? or God exist?
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HE WHO DARES WINS
how one takes it, I reitreat that it is ONLY in the hands of Allah to give one hidaya "lead to Right path"....
I given the examples of Noah's ((peace be on Him) son and uncle of Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon Him), who didn't accepted Islam.
Allah knows the Best and lead us to the straight Path..AMEEN!
I simply said : this is one hint about soul existence.
and one thing that always triggers me: why do athiests always assume that there is a pure contradiction between science and God's existence?
So far, it's beautiful how science proved to be the proof of the existence of God.
I believe that's why they are still looking for the answers bibo, rather then just saying God did it.
I read this before... but this doesn't explain how blind people correctly report the sight of their death experiences..
Or not Victor...you won't be disappointed either way. Guess you could say you are taking the safe bet. I, on the other hand, could be in for a very big shock. I'd actually be quite disappointed if what you guys believe turns out to be the truth, it's so limited and simple in the big scheme of things.
evidence to believe......
while we don't need to prove anything.....just keep your right hand on your heart and ask yourself is there a God...you will get the answer...if not then search the whole universe, showing His Almighty presence.
That's from wiki by the way.
In response:
Biological analysis and theories
In the 1990s, Dr. Rick Strassman conducted research on the psychedelic drug Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) at the University of New Mexico. Strassman advanced the theory that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near-death was the cause of the near-death experience phenomenon. Only two of his test subjects reported NDE-like aural or visual hallucinations, although many reported feeling as though they had entered a state similar to the classical NDE. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases. All subjects in the study were also very experienced users of DMT and/or other psychedelic/entheogenic agents. Some speculators consider that if subjects without prior knowledge on the effects of DMT had been used during the experiment, it is possible more volunteers would have reported feeling as though they had experienced an NDE.
Dr. Karl Jansen, a New Zealand-born psychiatrist, has reproduced the effects of NDEs through the use of ketamine, thus giving potential evidence of a biological cause of the experience. [34]
Critics have argued that neurobiological models often fail to explain NDEs that result from close brushes with death, where the brain does not actually suffer physical trauma, such as a near-miss automobile accident. Such events may however have neurobiological effects caused by stress.
In a new theory devised by Kinseher in 2006, the knowledge of the Sensory Autonomic System is applied in the NDE phenomenon. His theory states that the experience of looming death is an extremely strange paradox to a living organism - and therefore it will start the NDE: during the NDE, the individual becomes capable of "seeing" the brain performing a scan of the whole episodic memory (even prenatal experiences), in order to find a stored experience which is comparable to the input information of death. All these scanned and retrieved bits of information are permanently evaluated by the actual mind, as it is searching for a coping mechanism out of the potentially fatal situation. Kinseher feels this is the reason why a near-death experience is so unusual.
The theory also states that out-of-body experiences, accompanied with NDEs, are an attempt by the brain to create a mental overview of the situation and the surrounding world. The brain then transforms the input from sense organs and stored experience (knowledge) into a dream-like idea about oneself and the surrounding area.
Whether or not these experiences are hallucinatory, they do have a profound impact on the observer. Many psychologists not necessarily pursuing the paranormal, such as Susan Blackmore, have recognized this. These scientists are not trying to debunk the experience, but are instead searching for biological causes of NDEs.[35]
According to Engmann[36], near-death experiences of people who are clinically dead are psychopathological symptoms caused by a severe malfunction of the brain resulting from the cessation of cerebral blood circulation. An important question is whether it is possible to “translate” the bloomy experiences of the reanimated survivors into psychopathologically basic phenomena, e.g. acoasms, central narrowing of the visual field, autoscopia, visual hallucinations, activation of limbic and memory structures according to Moody’s stages. The symptoms suppose a primary affliction of the occipital and temporal cortices under clinical death. This basis could be congruent with the thesis of pathoclisis – the inclination of special parts of the brain to be the first to be damaged in case of disease, lack of oxygen, or malnutrition – established eighty years ago by C. and O. Vogt.[37] According to that thesis, the basic phenomena should be similar in all patients with near- death experiences. But a crucial problem is to distinguish these basic psychopathological symptoms from the secondary mental associated experiences which may result from a reprocessing of the basic symptoms under the influence of the person’s cultural and religious views.
If I talk to you about my own interpretation for the existence of souls, you would call me subjective, with no evidence...
so .. I tried to google, cut and paste a scientific objective non-religious proof for the existence of soul that I thought might help you ...
research is the basis of knowledge and thinking...
Yet more google cut and paste...this is always what people rely upon when they can't argue for themselves...
Near Death Experiences
Near death experiences, or NDEs as they are often called, are intriguing and even inspiring. For almost 20 years, hundreds of thousands of people interested in the subject of life after death have been captivated by NDEs. Much attention is focused on some of the common phenomena associated with NDEs: the sense that one is dead, looking down on one's body, traveling down a tunnel or dark passageway, seeing a bright light, meeting other persons or supernatural beings, participating in a life review, reentering one's body, or seeing beautiful scenery. In fact, in a 1982 Gallup survey nearly 23 million Americans claimed to have been close to death and had something to tell about it.5
Are these experiences only subjective? Is this just something for science fiction movies and spiritual fanatics, or are any of these stories true objective reality. What evidence, if any, can be given in their support? What can NDEs tell us about possible life beyond death?
At first, the early publications dealing with these experiences were unusually popular. They reported the claims of those who came close to death and survived and often used some rather fantastic stories to support their "findings." But studies since that time have become much more empirical and scientific. More recent data have effectively presented strong evidence for a minimal view of life after death and the existence of consciousness apart from the physical body.6
In their book Immortality, the Other Side of Death, researchers and authors Gary R. Habermas and J.P. Moreland list numerous corroborated reports detailing a number of NDEs. Many cases have been gathered in which dying persons were able to view individuals, events, or circumstances around them, or even other places, with amazing accuracy after coming close to dying or being pronounced clinically dead. Some of the descriptions were of occurrences that happened even when the patients were comatose. In other words, the research shows that these subjects reported data that would not normally have been in the range of their senses even if they were fully conscious at the time.
In one case, a girl named Katie had almost drowned in a pool. After her emergency room resuscitation, a CAT scan showed massive brain swelling, and her doctor had an artificial lung machine attached to her to keep her breathing. She was given a 10 percent chance to survive. But three days later she totally recovered and told an amazing story. She accurately described the physical characteristics of the doctors involved in her resuscitation, details of the hospital rooms she was taken into, and reported particulars of the specific medical procedures used on her, even though she was pronounced "profoundly comatose," with her eyes closed, during the entire time.7
Other fascinating cases involve a number of blind persons. A chemist, after being blinded a year earlier in an accident, correctly reported the visual details surrounding his near death experience. Other individuals who had been blind for years (and were tested for blindness again afterward) accurately described the design and colors of clothing and jewelry worn by those around them when they almost died. Habermas and Moreland report that these cases are not rare; they are unexpectedly common.
Even though these stories were checked and rechecked for the accuracy and truthfulness of the victim's claims, it still can be difficult to believe these amazing events. Is there a way to scientifically measure NDEs to provide more objective evidence?
Some individuals who have had NDEs have actually registered an absence of brain waives. It is fascinating to consider, therefore, that some of the most vivid memories in the lives of these people happened while their brains actually registered no known activity. Flat brain waves on the EEG, when present for long periods of time, are the chief contemporary definition of natural death.8 So ordinarily, life during such times appears to be powerful evidence that human consciousness may exist after death.
And we have such evidence. As a specific example, a woman who had both a flat EEG reading and no vital signs had been declared dead. But she spontaneously revived about three-and-a-half hours later. In fact, she regained consciousness and lifted the sheet off her face as she was being taken to the morgue by an orderly! Then she reported that she had floated over her body during the resuscitation attempts. She precisely described not only the procedures that were used in her attempted rescue but also the number of persons who came into the hospital room and what they said. All this happened after she had no brain activity whatsoever.9
All the claims were carefully checked with the medical records and the doctors who were present. It was determined that her entire description was correct, even though her EEG reading had been flat during that entire time. Kind of spooky, but the facts don't lie.
You are my evidence Gypsy.. walking talking, Gyspy gal.. Who made you? (yes I not refering to your mom or dad)
The sun, the moon, the sea the mountains the weather and so on.. Who the heck is making these go around?
It is prove that there is God than Proving that there is Not.
Now religion is a different matter..
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HE WHO DARES WINS
I'm evidence that some cells split at some point. Saying all those things were done by God is a cop-out UKEng, it stops us from looking for the actual answers.
Come on Uk Eng, what evidence?
Very well said, Bibo.
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
I answered a specific question simply because it triggered me :)
This doesn't mean that I totally adopt MS' attitudes or beliefs... sorry if I confused you.
You dont have to beleieve in a supereme being and be religious at the same time. religion is man inspired concept that has been delivered to man by the man, through God as some one will say.
You dont have to be religious to beleive in God. His evidence is every where, if you cant see it then here is some thing wrong with you senses..
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HE WHO DARES WINS
Well bibo you chose to answer for MS who says she doesn't respect people who don't believe in God. I can't help but assume you feel the same way.
isn't it the so called "worldwide illumination"you were referring to? :)
It's not only that I respect, but I seek to love those who choose the other route. Who am I to judge you for your belief?
If my God himself is here to forgive, who am I to judge?
How can I beleive in a God who loves you and respects you if I don't?
ERR..JUST WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE "NEW WORLD ORDER"? MAY I ASK?
Or vice versa. If they don't have souls, are you sure we do?
let's start with humans... if monkeys have souls and are laughing at us, it is a good logic then to start beleive that we have too!
Well that's great for you, but, like MS, do you not respect those who choose the other route?
you assumed wrong gypsy... why would I do that?
It is through thinking that I reached God, my super daddy... and through thinking that I learn everyday not that he exists but the other way round: if he does, why do we? and beleive me, I am enjoying my search...
So in other words you stopped thinking and just gave it all up to belief in a big sky daddy. And how do you know Monkey's don't have souls, maybe they look at you and think the same thing.
it is the "new world order" who made ME beleive in God more, during my search for him. researching it and reading about it made me realize that this "new world order" beautifully fulfills prophecies... beautiful isn't it?
for me, what made me beleive in God was not the fear of an afterlife... not at all... God is not the consequence of my fear... for I discovered that God stood as an existence by "itself"".. (please check my previous post)
What drives me to love God is not the fear of an afterlife, if our God holds a stick and a carrot then he is no better than any selfish human being...and I agree with you on that
but
afterlife is neither a reward or a punishement for a real christian, it is the natural continuity of life for our souls. (for that you have to beleive first that you have a soul.. but that's not too hard for any logical person that realizes that what is differing us from monkeys is not the very slight DNA difference, neither the neurones... and when you realize that spirits and demons do exsit... research this and let's discuss)
When you bond with God in this life, beleive me, you are too "out of your ego" to even worry about your own continuity... you live for love, and amazingly, our religion tells us exaclty that, for afterlife comes as a gift for granted, something you don't have to worry about or work for because you already got it by faith, for free...
LOOSING ONE'S RELIGION IS DUE TO THE BIT BY BIT EXPOSURE OF THE "NEW WORLD ORDER" IT BASICALLY IS INSINUATING THE UP CLOSE VICTORY OF WORLDWIDE ILLUMINATION.
M.S. can't you just be a good person without some fear of an afterlife to make you do it?
Thanks and God bless
Well done Bibo! That's what I was trying to let them do, so they could realize that they always have to look at this world from another prospect.I am a Muslim, and I respect you and your religion, but I do not respect a person that don't believe in "nothing" in there life. Because life is meaningless; has no sense without God's existence. No believing in God, is believing in nothing.
Hope always for the best.
Peace
"Better in time...down just like that"
deviate from the main topic...Salax; rather stop discussion if one has reached to some conclusion.
Thanks
A senior friend of mine, finally, found her own version of the truth. She told me that she didn’t believe that nature is one unity anymore. Nature is various natural forces and cannot be congregated in the singular grammar rule as we know it.
So, water, plants, mountains, wind, earth…etc are nature(s), each has their own god. She thinks the universe is a representation of a collective effort, not possible to be all orchestrated by one.
I was speechless and didn’t argue with her, I thought “silence” is truly a virtue!
Salam
Some believe that nature is the creator, it was not created. They claim that nature in itself proves there is no god for the universe.
Nature doesn’t only include all kinds of plants and animals....etc but the weather energy, water and “natural” existence that hasn’t been brought by mankind. And even if humans interfered, they wouldn’t have been able to change or stop the force of nature to exist.
They also believe that humans aren’t part of nature.
My opinion: the last statement rebuttals their “assumption”. It’s an evidence of the existence of God who at least created humans.
Salam
being a christian... I must admit, I first had a lot of atheist thoughts...
being raised to beleive not to think,
to answer the question "does God exist" by "if not, how do you explain life? how do you explain the universe"
was not enough to convince me... at 22, I clearly declared that I am an athiest and that we create our own religion as a way to avoid death, and to create immortality and to answer questions. I read books of different faiths and it made me even more convinced that religion IS created.
what convinced me is the following:
1- the historic evidence of the bible, the prophecies (hundreds of years before) about the coming of Christ and the exact calculations that match the dates... unbeleivable... plus the scientific and historical evidence that Christ lived and existed.
2- the future prophecies about the end of the world and how it is EXACTLY EXACTLY matching our presence and predicted future path.
I am a scientific person... and it took me to read many many books to get convinced.. it took me dates, numbers, political, geographical historical happenings...
3- having seen people possessed by demons... on national Geographic channel... on pure wscientific documentaries...if demons exist, why not a God???
4- a very personal experience: I got clear message about it. be it unbeleivable un-imaginable coincidences and circomstances that happened to me that made me realize that not only there is an absolute God but that there is a God who is very much alive and caring for my soul. I.e.? I lose my child in City Center, and just when I found him and rushed back to the car, all shaking and crying, I opened the car radio I hear a verse saying " the mother forgets her child, but I won't forget you". It wasn't a day dream, my housemaid heard it. it was simple, a tape that a friend gave me that I put and forgot in the radio cassette... coincidence? this is only one out of a hundred... converting an athiest isn't a piece of cake!! :)
5- Just by reading all my wholy book and some books explaining it.
So now, I join real Christians and real muslims to vote for the existence of a one God that is alive, perfect, pure, and personally caring for each single human being on earth.
Precisely, Happy Happy. Although I'm not scared of these people you mentioned. Just sad that they're blinded by their own self interests - whether consciously or unconsciously. Most of them are simply unaware that what they're doing causes more harm than good. Anyway, God is in ultimate control.
Agree wholeheartedly with your statement:-
"-A person (believer or not) who wrecks havoc and doesn’t have any minimal weight of basic human dignity and values.
-A believer who does things in the name of God (God as I know in the 3 divine religions), intentionally or not, causing irreparable damage to themselves and their surroundings.
I feel sorry for non-believers who have nothing to hang on to in times of adversity (except their friends), and angry at pretentious believers, they defeated the main purpose of their own faith."
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
How does that scare you??
A non-believer is the one who believes nature begets nature. (This gives me the creeps)
? Could you explain that one a little more?
I’m scared of those:
-A person (believer or not) who wrecks havoc and doesn’t have any minimal weight of basic human dignity and values.
-A believer who does things in the name of God (God as I know in the 3 divine religions), intentionally or not, causing irreparable damage to themselves and their surroundings.
I feel sorry for non-believers who have nothing to hang on to in times of adversity (except their friends), and angry at pretentious believers, they defeated the main purpose of their own faith.
My Glossary:
- A believer is the one who believes or even doubts there is a highest power. (Allah is the Creator in my case)
- A non-believer is the one who believes nature begets nature. (This gives me the creeps)
Salam
Non believers do good things because they trully see the benefit of doing it and do it with a freewill whereas religious people though are split between those doing it of goodwill and those because they fear god.
Well Happy Happy, at the very least I wouldn't want people to stop looking for one. And that counts for scientists too.
Platao36 said "just that it has been used as an excuse to split Humans and sometimes ends up by being descriminatory and even contradictory, one good example is that all say that God is perfect and then, it's described to be a God who behaves just like any mere mortal. "
Nope, we believe that God is perfect but dwelt among us as a human and experienced the circumstances we faced and thus understands them. At all times, He was without sin and returned to the Father when it was time to go. NB: Triune God. Difficult to understand and this is not place to elucidate further.
The Da Vinci Code raises a lot of questions and really, at the end of the day, God is not the problem. It's some people who twist and turn things by their interpretations, for their own benefit, however much they pretend that they are acting for other people's benefits. This is the reason why out of hundreds of [edit: church leaders and elders - not only my own denomination but others and non-denominational ones]. I have met and gotten to know over the years, only a handful are balanced.
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
Being the person you are, constantly questioning, I’d personally expect from you to have found or at least felt there is a higher power, regardless of what it is.
Bless you.
Salam
M.S. - in answer to your question "what possibly made you think and believe there is no God?"
The fact that there's no proof. I think I've mentioned that a few times already.
Peace,
Allah, beginning with the name, the most gracious, the most merciful.
It is imperative to ascertain before we give any presentation, which are the target audience and their level of understanding. I must say and feel honored to present it to the most respectable and intelligent group of Qlers’s
Let’s first of all go through first and basic foundation of Islam is FAITH (IMAAN)
Beliefs Relating To Allah's Self And His Characteristics (Allah Ta'ala's Monotheism [Oneness] And His Qualities)
Allah is one. He is Pure, He is Unique, and he is free from faults. He is the total of all qualities and excellence. No one in any thing is equal to him or is level with him or higher than him. In his qualities of characteristics he has always existed and will always remain. Eternity is only for his self and his characteristics. Except Him, whatever exists hasn't been there always, but in fact has been created by Him. He is from Himself meaning no-one has created Him. He is not a father of anyone, nor a son, nor does he have a wife nor any relations. He is self sufficient from all this. He is not dependant of anyone on any matter and all are dependant of Him. To give wealth, to kill, to give life are all in his control. He is the master of all, He does whatever He wishes. Nobody can challenge His order. Without His will a grain does not move. He is aware of all things hidden, shown, what has happened and what is going to happen, there is not the slightest thing that is outside His knowledge. The world, the universe, every single creation in existence has been created by Him. Everyone is His servant. He is more beneficent towards His servants than a person's parents. He is the one who forgives sins and accepts one's repentance. His hold is so strong that no one can escape without His willingness. To give one respect or disrespect is in His control. Whoever He wishes He will give them respect, whoever He wishes he will give them disrespect. Possession and fortune are in His control, whoever He wishes He will make rich, whoever He wishes He will make them poor.
@ Tallg; I wanted to have an answer for one reason, to know what possibly made you think and believe there is no God. And since you don’t have the answer to those questions, then why don’t you try to find them. You won’t lose anything; it’s just a matter of gaining more knowledge. You don’t have to just depend on one thing, that has no answer to questions; and that is not considered in the world. And I haven’t insulted you in my post, and if you think I did; then you probably misunderstood me. (And sorry didn’t know you explained it previously, but that was my purpose anyways)
@Adey; I wouldn’t do that to a human like me, I’d rather help them in believing in God. Seems like you didn’t read my post carefully.
@Plato; I am trying to help. Because you yourself know what’s the right path. Mentioning this:
"Being a non-believer is doing the wrong, killing, stealing and being evil. Fearing humans like you, not caring about the world around you. Having the answers to questions but just lying to yourself, denying the fact that they are true. Not having a peaceful mind, heart, soul and life."
Is showing that there is nothing such as “non-believer” they know there is God, they’re just in a state of denial as I said. Because a human being, can’t possibly be that bad. If they do one slightly bad thing, they will regret it and be haunted by guilt all there life.
All I am trying to do is help; maybe I am not an expert in it, but I have tried.
@Tallg; Just read about different religions and see which one of them makes more sense to you. Read about old history and see what’s related between them and those religions, trust me you won’t lose anything and if you think that nothing makes perfect sense, then follow your path and at last you’ve tried.
@ vmakunhi; Couldn’t agree less.
I am done.
Peace.
"Better in time...down just like that"
You can find sites like
http://www.islamicity.com/Science/scientists
where you can get the information you are looking for.
If we were trying to show that Science (and Technology) are different from religion, yes that is surely the case.
Science can only tell us "How the Universe Works ?" and Technology (i.e. Applied science), makes use of the answers provided by Science to improve the lives of human beings.
But Science cannot answer the question "Why the Universe works the way it does ?", "What is the purpose of this Universe ?",
"Is there a purpose at all ?", "Is there anything beyond, something that we cannot perceive ?",
"Is Morality relative or there are absolute defintions of good and evil ?"
These are all questions that sicentists will claim are the domain of metaphysics (not physics), and non-scientists will say are questions of spirituality or religion.
So you could see Science and Religion and trying to answer different questions, and hence cannot be the same.
Hope this helps.
I can't honestly say I'm an athiest, even though I argue from that vien all the time. I don't believe in the God purposed in teh Religious texts, and I defintely don't believe in the religious texts, however I do think it's entirely possible that there is something operating above us. I'm not sure if it's sientient or not, but I think there's more.
M.S.: If you are interested on those matters search the post called: " Am i a muslim or a christian".
Now, what were you saying about being a beliver or a nom beliver???
"Being a non-believer is doing the wrong, killing, stealing and being evil. Fearing humans like you, not caring about the world around you. Having the answers to questions but just lying to yourself, denying the fact that they are true. Not having a peaceful mind, heart, soul and life."
Are you God/Allah?
If not, than what makes you think that you are in the right path?
Are you aware that religion isn't mandatory?
Are you pure in heart?
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
great idea!
Perhaps will can build some 'camps' for people who don't think like you? We had better fence them in in case they get out and 'infect' decent people.
There must be a better, permanent and 'final' solution though - ya know - just in case.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
M.S. - I have no interest in answering your questions. I've stated that I don't believe in God but respect the decision of those who do. I'm not questioning why they do, and I've explained why I don't.
Posting comments like yours that insult people's intelligence because they don't follow a religion is not a very religious thing to be doing. Try having a bit of respect for people who have different beliefs to you.
I fear nothing or anyone but God. And do not tell me what I am scared off. I am not a non-believer that fears “humans” made of blood and flesh and are no different than me. Could you tell me what laws do you follow in your life? Government’s law, or maybe laws you might have invented yourself. Do you have what’s called “forbidden”, evil, wrong and right? Do you kill and steal?
Being a non-believer is doing the wrong, killing, stealing and being evil. Fearing humans like you, not caring about the world around you. Having the answers to questions but just lying to yourself, denying the fact that they are true. Not having a peaceful mind, heart, soul and life.
If you do any of the above, than what’s your purpose in your life? Spreading hatred and evilness in this world?
And if you don’t do all of the above, then you believe in God’s existence, but you’re just in a state of denial between yourself and your unconsciousness. Being a peaceful person never comes out of “science”, it comes out of a peaceful mind, soul and heart. And a peace mind, heart and soul never comes out of science, it comes from God.
One sign that made me realized how “scared” you are (or whoever) to face one “true” fact in your life; is deleting my post. It was great non-respecting a point of view, but how I possible could expect it from people that don’t believe in what is called “respect”.
And yes you won’t have any answers to any of those questions, because you’re brain can never reach that level of knowledge to accept certain facts. I advise you to read about history, other religions, and get more knowledge. And if you’re having a 0% will to do that, then try to think one more time; “God gave us a brain to think.” What do you say at the previous sentence instead of “God”. You say: “Science gave us a brain to think?” I don’t think so.
@Tallg; sure you won’t answer my posts, since “you got no answer to them” is your only answer. Read, learn, “think” and then answer.
My regards, M.S
"Better in time...down just like that"
There was a thread recently about a new article which talked about how atheism is a religion. That's why it was brought up here.
I don't consider atheisim a religion, that is insulting. atheisim is normalitiy. It is something i hope to see more of however, 2009 people. Imaginary friends for grown ups are silly.
Tallg: Congrats for the baby :)
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Please dont say that that is your personal religion and dont bring like this about religion on roads, Please Dont Bring To this Jkrs. Be fatih in your religion.
Well like the saying goes..believe in some thing otherwise you will end up believing in evry thing.. If atheism is now a beleif then I guess you are as religious as anyone esle me old gyspy girl..
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HE WHO DARES WINS
Thank you!
I don't think I ever officially announced it as such, but I have probably commented on it a few times on QL. Drop date for 'baby tall' is end of June!
LOL. There you go. And when did that happen, or have you said it before and I missed it. Either way congrats!
And obviously since I'm in peak physical condition and of extreme intelligence I've already done my part for the greater collective by getting my missus up the duff.
You're the borg Tallg :P
Yeah, give me a curvaceous lass any day of the week!
See, I'm still thinking about the good of the collective rather than the individual!
Enjoy your weekend.
Ahhh Now I get what you're getting at. Yes, we no longer pick mates based on survival of the fittest. Not to mention the physical ideals of women and men are actually determential to the species (the skinner women are the less children they are able to have). But yes, tooo much for a Thursday afternoon! I've only got an hour left at work after all!
Agreed in that respect Gypsy. But from a more "primeval" view, the instinct of selecting reproductive partners based on the principles of survival of the fittest has gone, and with it so have the chances of us evolving further.
Perhaps we'd reached the end of the evolutionary path, with the final evolutionary step being the ability to have emotions that negate certain natural instincts.
But that's for to much to comprehend on a Thursday afternoon!
15% of us are...the other 85% are perfectly happy remaining stagnant.
After all...we are all perfect in the eyes of "god".
Hmmm, I don't know, well I do agree that the majority of the world is selfish, there are those who are out there working for the benefit of mankind. And look at the changes in our mindsets in the last few decades, our views of homosexuals, other races, etc. It's by no means perfect, but we are changing.
Gypsy - Unfortunately I feel the goals of most humans have become ones that benefit them personally, rather than ones that benefit the human race collectively.
So all our 'evolution' will have to come through technological breakthroughs rather than biological ones.
when I get a proper break, let me go through your comments and will reply appropriately. Google is for babies my friend.
Maybe our goal is to figure out what our goal is. :P
scmasse said - "Our goal, as with any animal...Produce and teach offspring, survive, and my personal human goal: Make the world a better place than how I found it (even the smallest change is still a change)."
That's true, apart from humans no longer reproduce based on the idea of 'survival of the fittest', so our goal is somewhat different from other animals.
Other animals seek out the strongest partners to mate with, so the good traits are passed on to the offspring and the bad ones aren't. Humans have stopped doing this so our chances of moving on to the next evolutionary stage of our species is severely hindered.
More details will follow once you hit google and then hit copy and paste. Your M/O is predictable.
somebody said God is behaving like mortals, jealous...It is absolutely wrong and misconcept. I feel there are too many people trying to explain Gypsy, tallg and LIB.
more details will follow....
LIB: I fully agree with you, that's why i say that's hard to belive in the God written in sacred books, he sounds too human instead of a perfect being. But i don't blame the profet but their disciples or companions that wrote the books
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
We are animals making our way in the world just like all the other animals. We just happen to have a higher (debatable) mental capacity and the ability to be aware of our journey through time.
Our goal, as with any animal...Produce and teach offspring, survive, and my personal human goal: Make the world a better place than how I found it (even the smallest change is still a change).
Why do we need some grand journey to a mythical afterlife to have a purpose? I have purpose every day that I wake up and I am not striving to please some invisible sky god.
RT, I don't think we'll ever know for sure. I've read a lot, of philosophy and I like what some of it says, and I dislike what some of it says, and I pick and choose, but I'm always aware that I could be wrong.
Gypsy I feel there is an answer for everything, and as we research more we will discover things that to non scientist will be seen as miracles. Look how close we are to cloning people - "man creating his own image'
A question I have though is why are we here - what are we supposed to be doing???
Very true LIB. I always thought the whole "jealous God" think was strange...I mean if people can get over jealousy shouldn't an omnipotent being be able to?
The study is just for the Yanks.. We need to have a definitive study from the Canadians before taking Gypsy seriously..
I think it might be the whole "God created man is his own image" stuff...
I guess it's nice to pick and choose what parts of "religion" you want to believe in.
Maybe I will start picking and choosing what parts of science I want to believe in, would be quite an interesting world to live in...LOL
...taking off from where I left yeasterday.
Yes,I have a big problem with God behaving like mortals. If god gets angry,anxious,happy,sad etc. then what is the whole point in keeping him above all others. He is never born,will never die.He cannot be created nor destroyed and all the other jazz sounds rediculous if he has to behave exactly like each one of us. And first of all,who told us that he is like us.The concept that he has a human form is also rediculous.God has no shape. He is energy.He takes the shape of everything and nothing.How can he dictate things to us or to any living beings. He doesn't interfere in what you do. He is the CEO not a Security Gaurd guys. He does not monitor our every act because he is the universe. We have all come from the Universe and one day we will get back to the universe after the energy we are made of disintegrates.
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
Roadtester, can't you just be satified with the answer, we don't know yet? Isn't that preferable to creating a great big sky Daddy.
Panda said..."and this is my last post here."
Thank you very much!
If 15% of the people don't have religion, there should be no christmas holidays for them.
Christmas is a pagan Roman holiday that was absorbed into chrisitianity to aid with converting people. Hallowean is also a pagan holiday.
Interesting questions - these are how I answer them in my head. I am not telling you that you should believe what I think just explain how i resolve it.
-How did this life begin? Out of the blue? / -that had brains (that God created!)
Yes when i look to the fossil record, (to my knowledge Koran and Bible dont explain dinosaurs or say that humans like us were exisiting at the same time) the fact you can find life in the most inhospitable places, bottom of the ocean, around the volcanic 'black smokers' etc
-How did you get a brain to think? Out of the blue?
The brain evolved, through mutation, nutrition and the clever breeds of monkeys killing/driving away competition.
-How did science exist? From humans (Gods creatures!)
The world is governed by rules of phyics, chemistry etc, when i put dough in the oven it comes out as bread it doesn't become a chicken or some other random item.
I do believe though that there is more to life that we have yet to understand, things like the placebo effect, super Savants - humans that can tell you pi to hundreads of places. You should see Daniel Tammet - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Tammet he has very bad social skills yet brain power that is unbelivable, he learnt a new language and went on tv!
Also where parents have been able to lift cars etc to rescue children etc.
I'm not specialist in religion neither in english, so I suggest you to read this.
http://www.harunyahya.com/unwise01.php
and this is my last post here.
does it mean that man have full control of himself? If everything can be explained by science, what is the explanation for human experiencing death?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
blah blah blah
You can't teach experience...
quran - the cow
30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
31. And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."
32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"
If you lookfor paradise after death, the you need relegion and it is part of it, substentiated by the doctrins, scriptures and prophets and miracles, and go and study indeapth details with frank and impartial attitude. Else you wait the outcome after your death! but believers they knew something perfectly what non-believer did not understand it. But all belief are not true and not going to arrive in a satisfactory end.
If you lookfor paradise after death, the you need relegion and it is part of it, substentiated by the doctrins, scriptures and prophets and miracles, and go and study indeapth details with frank and impartial attitude. Else you wait the outcome after your death! but believers they knew something perfectly what non-believer did not understand it. But all belief are not true and not going to arrive in a satisfactory end.
I exist to make this world a better place and ensure that my progeny can do the same.
But no one can tell me they don't pray everday to their God...I haven't prayed for my own outcome in years...I met so many worse off than me that I just pray for them...I just thank God for everything I have and I know I have helped a few along the way....
May you be blessed and may all your troubles melt away as you become nearer to the Lord..
Panda, William Shakespeare is responsible for creating dozens of words. Even Beyonce coined a word that's now in the Oxford English Dictionary, where would we all be without bootylicious. So heaven and hell aren't really big feats.
MS, perhaps it's you that's hiding behind easy answers because you're too scared to admit that we don't know for sure why we exist or why we can think, or the answers to a million other questions.
I'm taking it all in good jest Platao, no worries!
Apart from comments like M.S.s.
I got rid of religion by dumping into an incinerator.
Why?
Jesus spoke to my heart: -- "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 14:6-9
I decided to keep Jesus Christ real close to me.
Westerners will do a mental count of Hadji's inside any aircraft, at any airport, before take off...
Peter Russel
lol happy happy :)
Tallg: don't take it too serious, just trying to make a funny discussion :)
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
britexpat, an inanimate object cannot become an animate object. She should have thrown somebody out the window to see if he could fly without wings.
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
...Alan Moore visualized a sort of god (Dr. Manhattan) which is made up of tachyons.
Alan Moore's imaginary thought was the most astounding and a bit 'realistic' thing I have ever heard of the possibilities of the existence of a god through a scientific fact...and this is just a comic book!
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
Why did the atheist throw her watch out the window?
She wanted to see if it was designed intelligently enough to evolve into a bird.
You're never going to convert someone to religion with arguments like that.
For all those who don't believe in God.
As simple as that:
-How did this life begin? Out of the blue?
-How did you get a brain to think? Out of the blue?
-How did science exist? From humans (Gods creatures!) that had brains (that God created!)
God is very great, he's stronger than anyone in this world, he doesn't need our prayers. In a matter of fact, he is helping us by making us pray. He's doing this for our own good.
It's true when you think about a lot of things in life, you will find that almost everything in our life is based on science, yes; because God won't create or make you see (at least for now) something that your brain can't accept or believe. He made everything in this life for a reason, he forbidden and disagreed on things for a reason. And those "reasons" were to always keep us on the right path.
Since you think there is no God, then I don't think your brain is wise enough to believe any of the "true" facts that leads to this answer "God exist".
People that don't believe in God, are running from the truth, by believing whatever comes up in their mind. It doesn't have to be based on science or excluding God's existence; simply anything. Stop running from the truth, just face it.
Read books about history and different religions. You will realize you're wrong; if not today then one day.
I got a lot to say, but I can't say it to those who don't have the ability or this brain strength to accept. To those who have a weak faith, weak beliefs and weak hearts.
"Better in time...down just like that"
For all those who don't believe in God.
As simple as that:
-How did this life begin? Out of the blue?
-How did you get a brain to think? Out of the blue?
-How did science exist? From humans (Gods creatures!) that had brains (that God created!)
God is very great, he's stronger than anyone in this world, he doesn't need our prayers. In a matter of fact, he is helping us by making us pray. He's doing this for our own good.
It's true when you think about a lot of things in life, you will find that almost everything in our life is based on science, yes; because God won't create or make you see (at least for now) something that your brain can't accept or believe. He made everything in this life for a reason, he forbidden and disagreed on things for a reason. And those "reasons" were to always keep us on the right path.
Since you think there is no God, then I don't think your brain is wise enough to believe any of the "true" facts that leads to this answer "God exist".
People that don't believe in God, are running from the truth, by believing whatever comes up in their mind. It doesn't have to be based on science or excluding God's existence; simply anything. Stop running from the truth, just face it.
Read books about history and different religions. You will realize you're wrong; if not today then one day.
I got a lot to say, but I can't say it to those who don't have the ability or this brain strength to accept. To those who have a weak faith, weak beliefs and weak hearts.
"Better in time...down just like that"
eve is the first engineer.. why?
shes the first to "raise" something ;)
"You cannot propel yourself forward by patting yourself on the back."
If 15% of the people don't have religion, there should be no christmas holidays for them.
Judging by my belief, Adam and Eve were created first then you and I. Thus, chicken firs then egg..
eaglemmanuel: duck or sparrow, wont make a difference..:)
Salam
happy: Who generated her? Wasn't she born from an egg?
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
I thought the duck came first...
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
The chicken was created first..
lol tallg, please do, at least i may leurn something ;)
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
...only makes those empty cathedrals more of a vacation spot and a tourist attraction. :-)
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
I could bore you with the scientific answer, but wont.
Tallg: Who was born 1st, the egg or the chicken? ;)
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
It's inspiration.
Let's just say that they've created some of the most wonderful and 'powerful' stories ever told in one book written ages ago...hence the collection of the inspired people to, err, build a 'church' to collect the masses and read the stories again.
I did said 'read' to the stories. 'Practicing' what they 'read' is another different matter.
There's your religion that promotes violence and chaos.
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
As you like, heero. I think cathedrals are a clear sign of sucking people's blood in order to display the ruler's might.
ROFL Tallg & Gypsy!
"And on the 7th Day God didn't actually rest, he created QL!" ;0)
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
I still don't see why God, and in the consequence religion are necessary. There is no problem to explain and prove the creation of the universe with methods of physics. It's just a little bit harder to understand than a creation through one God.
panda - yes you're right that as time progresses we discover more things. That's why throughout this thread I've said that I might change my beliefs if someone was able to prove God existed. Perhaps this will happen in the future.
Panda, that has to be the most absurd statement I have ever heard. People imagine something from nothing all the time! I have read some really really good fiction that was imagined from nothing.
I've read the bible too, pretty poor piece of fiction that one...was bored to tears.
i dont really believe in religion but i prefer to call God as the Great Architect of the Universe(a very neutral term). I dont aspire to be Mr goody-two-shoes but at least we should "engineered" ourselves to become better persons for everyone.
if you live your life trying hard not to step on somebody elses's shoes and doing something good for the community, then youre better off than those "Believers" who go to churches and mosques.
i'd rather be a Heretic than an Atheist =)
"You cannot propel yourself forward by patting yourself on the back."
we can not create or imagine something from nothing, everythings were revelated in the books came from the creator, if there is no books who can imagine or invent words like heaven, hell, angels, satan...etc...
The fact of the matter is there is no proof for the existence of divine force, but there is also no proof that there isn't one.
I for one am not sure, sometimes I feel there is a greater power, other times I'm not so certain.
What I am certain of is that whatever it is isn't behind any of the worlds religions, and that those have been created purely by us.
The fact of the matter is there is no proof for the existence of divine force, but there is also no proof that there isn't one.
I for one am not sure, sometimes I feel there is a greater power, other times I'm not so certain.
What I am certain of is that whatever it is isn't behind any of the worlds religions, and that those have been created purely by us.
Gypsy well said there - The discussion is Religion. Not God. Something which is not proven cannot be accepted or denied , hence its called a Faith. I do beleieve there is a power which controls the universe.
Religion - why do we need it?.. ancient cultures and way of life were later converted and calld reigion. Why? Indu culture and scripts whch are 5000 odd years old were called Hindu religion later and now fights with the minorities in India.
What has religion done so far to mankind?? except killing billions of them.
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Listen to Many..Speak to a few.
I must agree with Gypsy and Tallg when they say that we can have a belief but we shouldn't belive in it just because someone told you to do it, we all need to be racional, no matter what religion we belive on, if God didn't wanted us to racionalize he wouldn't have created us different from all other animals.
Arecel: Couldn't agree more, people can discuss their beliefs without trying to impose them to someone that doesn't have the same belief.
LIB: Sure, np, :)
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
tallg, good so you beleive that. I also beleive it but right now the science can not give a solid proof to explain all the mechanisms how the brain works, but even that we beleive it.
now, if I asked this question to one guy hundreds years ago, what he could answer, probably he could not beleive it bcoz the science was not developed like nowadays.
the humain instinct is that we beleive on what we see with our eyes and hear with ears.
...I will tell you later...gotta go now...
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
LIB: "...I have a problem with God behaving as mortals like you rightly pointed out. " What is your problem with it?
Of course that Heaven and Hell are present in several religions just like on others there isn't hell but you can only reach "heaven" after the soul has passed all required texts.
Eagle: "Nope, we believe that God is perfect but dwelt among us as a human and experienced the circumstances we faced and thus understands them. At all times, He was without sin and returned to the Father when it was time to go."
I'm refering to God, not to Jesus. And what i say is that people in all religions tend to see God almost as an equal that can love or hate as easilly as anyone of us, on other words I don't belive in the God that was created by Humans.
Gypsy:
"Religion is a human construction, used to control people through fear of the unknown, and many people prefer there religion to the alternative, which is not knowing."
It's a good way to put what i said about a private God created by Humans.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Not the least bit convincing, in fact sounds absurd.
No offense
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"A Wise Man knows what he does not know!"
and seeing something are two different senses.
If I pinched myself very hard, course I would feel it but you can also see the result of pain e.b bruises, cuts etc. But that does not tell me there is a god.That just tells me I am a bloody fool for pinching myself.
This is what I meant in my previous posting.
Gypsy is allowed to be a Athiest just as much as you are allowed to be religious.
What makes you think she wants to take stuff home with her to read about it.
I think she and all us others can do that for ourselves thank you.
How would you feel if we decided to send you stuff on how to be a good athiest?
I used to get so annoyed with religious people knocking on my door. Usually asking if I had found god. I always replied,'did not he was missing, but if he turns up I will give you a shout'.
My thoughts are my own, but I doubt my Mum would agree with some of them.
saif_nfsus - Science explains perfectly well why we feel pain, and why we experience love. And there aren't spirits around us!
hi gypsy
i respect your thoughts. but i wouldn't say that there's no GOD.
there is a GOD who has superpowers that controls the galaxies.
i will give you a small example for those who dont believe that there is God.
pinch yourself hard.... do u feel the pain. yes!!! but u can't see the pain. now .. can u say that there's no pain even though u feel it. U can't say that. when u feel love towards another person, how could u say there's no love when u do feel it. same way there are spirits around us and they are double the worlds population, but u cant see them. only some people can. so there is a God but there's no purpose of a religion like aethism, my dear.
no offense
if you need more information on this subject i could provide you with details which u can grasp it at home too.
take care
if people are religious or not. I consider it none of my business. What I do give a *amn about is somebody trying to impose thier religious beliefs on me.
If I wanted to find out or join I would do it on my own in my own way.
Those that pray and read the 'good books' do so with my blessing but please, please leave me (and others) alone for thinking there is Zilch out there to believe in.
My thoughts are my own, but I doubt my Mum would agree with some of them.
...it has only been fantasized. These are fantasies which have happened by chance and labelled as prophesies. Correct me if I'am wrong,is it not said that the believers will always be subjected to the test.They will have to bear hardships etc etc. I say,if believers behave the way they are behaving now,they will definately undergo hardship.What a prophesy got to do with it. Secondly,I refuse to belive that God actually has to write down a book through whatever medium to communicate with me. Easy eh?
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
It's better than shooting each other, tallg. Lol.
ROFL Tallg! Now that I might actually believe! "And on the 7th Day God didn't actually rest, he created QL!"
"all be sitting around chatting on Qatar Living some day."
I believe this was Gods ultimate master plan. It is the pinnacle of his work.
Right, gypsy. You would not have survived the Middle - Ages!
sigh...why anyone would imposed their faith on others, i really don't understand that. the thought that they know better. sh*t.. if other people don't believe in anything, that is their problem. do not imposed and rant and end up sounding stupid. ..
http://www.buhayqatar.com
mo lang!
When you don't like the news kill the messenger eh MD.
Gypsy, be careful. Sooner or later some 'Christians' will accuse you of insulting their 'holy book'.
I have nothing to eat....
Go to church and pray.
Our streets are not safe.....
Go to church and pray.
Our government is corrupt...
Go to church and pray.
Just like a drug you might feel better after praying (or smoking, snorting, shooting whatever) but you never address the real problem so it just continues.
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"A Wise Man knows what he does not know!"
Exactly Tallg. Although it does make some stupid helpless weak people very dangerous.
Really, I read the Bible and none of this has been prophezied. Please tell me where it said we would all be sitting around chatting on Qatar Living some day.
Religion works for some people not others. For some it provides something they need in their life. Believing in God doesn't make someone stupid or helpless.
Then I'll take it with alpha_wolf. It's a drug.
I don't think they're either. I think they're just looking for something to fill a void.
have been prophesied in the Bible a long time ago. Of course you are entitled to your views, that's why no argument to people like you because basically, you don't believe in His existence.
EM, I don't believe in triune God, that's an invention. You are wrong when you say God dwelt with us and return to father. There is only one God, the Father and it's His son, Jesus who dwelt with us and Jesus is not God.
The wrong perception created by so called majority Christians right now is the one creating indifference to so many non-Christians. If only we could get the right message of what is written!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
I agree that religion is like a drug...
Karl Marx put it quite well when he said...
"Religion is the opiate of the people!"
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"A Wise Man knows what he does not know!"
Are people who believe in God 'stupid' or 'helpless'?
It fills the needs of different people in different ways MD. For me it just never made sense and I could never believe in something so obviously wrong about so many things on so many levels.
'Could - gypsy. For me as a child it meant only prohibtions and threatening with the irreal 'hell' and 'sins'. However, at the age of 10 or so, it didn't make sense anymore and I opposed my parents.
People are willing to allow bad things to happen and to destroy their world because they believe it's God's plan and everything is in God's hands. It's is a very very dangerous belief and one that will lead to a self fulfilling prophecy.
I find it very difficult to believe in god as if they do indeed exist, why do they allow so many bad things to happen and that bad people, and people with negative behaviours can do so much better than those that do the opposite. Also many people seem to think god is a man - whats that based on?!!!! they should have no gender??
I also find the fact that you have all these schizms hard to understand, ie muslim - sunni shia and christian - catholic, methodist, protestant etc. Shurely you 'should' believe in the same things, if you are not then you are doing because of the actions of man not god.
EM, it's not a threat, it's a warning. A holy warning! As tallg said, if you are comfortable with your belief, so be it. But it is also good to voice out your opinion and views so later on, when we see each other again on different dimension, nobody will say, "you never said it"! I mean you can't blame me, I can't blame you! Good afternoon to all!!!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
It also creates a sense of belonging MD, and creates the sense that we are never "alone" which can be very comforting. Kind of the same comfort drug addicts and alcoholics get when they abuse.
As gypsy said: religion is a form of social or political control, and man-made - supporting the leaders and oppressing the led.
Well said Gypsy...very well said indeed.
You say you were an adult convert, so you were raised with no religion or concept of religion whatsoever and then converted?
That I highly doubt. Some people though, feel the need to explain the unexplainable and god is the only thing out there that does that for them.
There are unexplainable things in this universe. There are things are limited brains will never be able to comprehend. I have accepted that I will never know the secrets of the universe. I have accepted that this life is all I have and I better make the best of it. I have accepted that my children are the only piece of me that I will truly leave behind, so I had better teach them to always question, always ponder, never accept something as truth without looking at all the angles. If that is wrong then I am not apologetic. There are worse things to teach your children...much worse.
The issue is not God. The issue is religion. We can not prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, but we can and have dispproven the validity of religion, it's been done time and again. Religion is a human construction, used to control people through fear of the unknown, and many people prefer there religion to the alternative, which is not knowing. Religion offers easy answers to some hard questions, like "What happens after we die." "Why do bad things happen to good people." "Why do we exist" Saying, Oh because God made us, or creating a heaven is an easy answer and beats the impossible task of actually figuring it out.
It's neurological function of the human brain to create myths to explain what we don't understand and give us control over the world. If we believe there's a God, and that God is receptive and will even respond to our prayers if we behave a certain way then that gives us control over our environment.
Not to mention the social aspects of group ritual. If you perform rituals together it bonds you as a social group, which creates cliques and gives the participants a sense of power, not to mention the control it gives the group leader over the followers.
There's thousands of things that explain why we follow religions, but none of those explanations are because they are actually the words of a God.
scmasse's, your comment is not applicable to me - because I was an adult convert. I didn't do so blindly. That's why I'm different. It's been 18 years now, several hard knocks in the school of life but my anchor holds in every storms of life, on the wings of a prayer. My strength is internal, God within me. Also another theological concept - cannot be elucidated further here.
It's funny you say that "It's fear, plain and simple. Fear is what drives religion...all of them."
If only people understood. Actually, we're called not to fear. Yes, being humans, we fear and talk about it but find our strength to be bold - not immediately, takes some praying. I came to Qatar without knowing a single person. No one in my company AT ALL. I've done pretty well but not on my own doing but God with me. I have failed many times in many things and will continue to fail many times but God is the only one who sustains me. Come what may, I will survive (or die and go to happy hunting ground)
No further comment cos I don't have time. Goodbye thread.
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
"However, I'm different in the sense that I see that God has given me a brain, so I will use it to be best of my ability, pray for wisdom to overcome problems and persevere through anything that comes my way and I eventually overcome obstacles."
Eagle: Right in the spot
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
please check.....
http://www.qatarliving.com/node/252497?page=8
and quite sure this will not end due the attitude of approaching something with a pre-conceived notion. If you listen to something with ur mind already made up, you'll never accept it, you might as well not waste ur time and listen to it.
There is no more arguments left!
That's not fence sitting scmasse. As of this moment I believe there is no god. That's as off the fence as you can get. If someone proves to me there is a good, then I'll change my belief.
TallG, when you say "Give me proof", then that means you are open to the possibility of there being a god if it could be proven.
So yeah, I consider that fence-sitting. I'm just as sure that there is not a god as the people here who claim there is.
I understand the annoying part though, my wife says the same thing...I'm a non-believing "fundamentalist" I guess...LOL
Why should someone believe in God? Because the universe is like it is? No need for a God. Physics can explain it. So, why? Because my parents threaten me that I will go to hell if I don't behave? That's just another form of "violence" against dependents.
"God is not the problem. It's some people who twist and turn things by their interpretations, for their own benefit, however much they pretend that they are acting for other people's benefits."
Here's the rub, if god was not in the equation then there would be nothing to interpret, so going with that logic, belief in god IS the problem.
dmigtysolomon said EM, everybody will die, that's the first end of it .. what happens next is God's move! It should make you think!"
Is that a threat? Lol! I know where I'm going when I die. The question is, do you? Careful of spiritual pride. I'm not arguing with you. God is my only judge.
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
Panda - yes.
scmasse - yes you do have the right to give your opinion, as I have a right to be annoyed by it. And I'm not sure how you concluded I'm sitting on the fence. I've stated quite clearly that I'm not religious, but I have no problem with people who are. That's not sitting on the fence. Sitting on the fence would be saying I can't decide if I have a problem with religious people or not.
"Religion is between a man and his God"
In other words it is nobody elses business, your beliefs are between you and your God. No need to convert me or lecture me, I will answer directly to God.
Organized religion is just another form of politics....
I agree Gypsy, religion is often an easy way to explain what we cannot yet explain.
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"A Wise Man knows what he does not know!"
well, now forget the metaphysical aspect, let's talk about physical as you said.
do you beleive that the body is managed and controlled by the brain?
That's nice TallG, that's the thing about opinions, everyone has one. I have every right to give my opinion and I find fence-sitters like you more annoying that the ultra-religious people.
you said - Maybe in 1 million years, long after we have made the earth uninhabitable by humans, another species will come about and gain self-awareness. Then they will uncover our lost civilization, worship us, fight over it, kill over it and then destroy the earth all over again....
I'am happy to bet for one fourth of that time frame.The way religions are going...I would be surprised that there is a big boom all of a sudden and a bam and then it will only be tra la lala...
Btw...nice post.
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
Well that makes sense to me panda. We have life, then we die and nothings left (we'll ignore the negligibly small physical remains)!
So for a religious person, who thinks there is something left after death, does that mean they think it's the soul that goes to heaven/hell/wherever?
scmasse - I find people who preach against religion as annoying as people who preach for it.
LiB - I'm all over QL. Usually being pedantic and infuriating as I am being here.
For those who missed my earlier comment, I posted these lyrics here, that say some good stuff about religion - http://www.qatarliving.com/node/412507
taht's true and the equation is still true, the soul is immortal coz it's coming from the creator.
so if we follow what you believe we can consider that:
soul = 0 ====> life = death!
Yes, I will end up happy...as I always have been dmigtysolomon, Religion is a crutch for the weak-minded. You believe in god because your parents believed in god...there is really no other reason. If you had not been indoctrinated since the day you were born to believe in your religion, who knows where your mind may have taken you.
It's fear, plain and simple. Fear is what drives religion...all of them. You are afraid you won't be sent to whatever heaven your particular religion subscribes to. Fear keeps you in line. Society is the same way. Fear of going to jail keeps (most) people from breaking laws. Religion, in this day and age, is overkill. Society would be so much better off if everyone woke up one day without any memory, knowledge, literature, or images of religion. We would embrace the science that EXPLAINS the universe we live in, down to the tiniest particle.
I maintain that we, as a religious dominant society, will ruin this world in short order. One of religion's basic tenants in the cause. "Multiply and replenish the earth". This idea in itself will be the downfall of the human species.
Maybe in 1 million years, long after we have made the earth uninhabitable by humans, another species will come about and gain self-awareness. Then they will uncover our lost civilization, worship us, fight over it, kill over it and then destroy the earth all over again....
...excellent post...I hope I could see more of posts like yours on QL....:)
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
REM: "losing my religion", I like this song!
Well technically panda that's a definition of 'death', but rearranging gives you;
soul = life - death
If you take death away from your life then you're immortal, and since I don't believe in immortality I guess I don't believe in soul.
if any one of you have heard it by Gregorian Losing my Religion :D
verse one:
Oh life, is bigger
It's bigger than you
And you are not me.
The lengths that I will go to
The distance in your eyes
Oh no I've said too much
I set it up...
pre-chorus:
That's me in the corner
That's me in the spotlight
Losing my religion
Trying to keep up with you
And I don't know if I can do it
Oh no I've said too much
I haven't said enough
chorus:
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try...
verse two:
Every whisper
Of every waking hour I'm
Choosing my confessions
Trying to keep an eye on you
Like a hurt, lost and blinded fool
Oh no, I said too much
I set it up...
pre-chorus:
Consider this
Consider this
The hint of the century
Consider this
The slip that brought me
To my knees failed
What if all these fantasies
Come flailing around
Now I've said too much
chorus:
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try...
bridge:
That was just a dream
That was just a dream
pre-chorus:
That's me in the corner
That's me in the spotlight
Losing my religion
Trying to keep up with you
And I don't know if I can do it
Oh no I've said too much
I haven't said enough
chorus:
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try...
outro:
That was just a dream
try, try, try, try...
That was just a dream
just a dream
just a dream
dream
what happens next is God's move! It should make you think!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
you are seriously funny man...rofl...
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
The existence of God cannot be scientifically proven but neither can it be disproved. That's why it's called faith - a belief in things not yet seen. By the time you see it, you'll be dead anyway (other theological arguments aside).
Cannot simply read anything out of context - need to research into what one reads, think, question, seek and find eg. the time a particular passage was written, background information, etc.etc.
And yes, I agree that many atrocities are committed in the name of religion. Again, I say that song lyrics tallg posted earlier is good.
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
tallg,
death = life - soul.
this is my definition
dmigty - I haven't seen your solid proof. Stating that because we are here God must exist does not constitute proof.
And the onus is on proving something does exist, not that it doesn't. As no-one has proven to you that unicorns exist I assume you believe in them too.
I've quite happy for you to believe what you believe, and for me to believe what I believe. I'm not asking you to prove anything to me or asking you to change your views, so please don't ask the same of me.
Panda - you'll have to define what a soul is before I can answer that.
A long article trying to articulate something that could have been illustrated much easier, a spreadsheet/table including the actual survey numbers and percentages, and a pie chart with percentage labels.
dmigtysolomon said And LOGICALLY, I know how you will end-up!"
Hey, dms! That's not fair! Besides, you're not God.
Matthew 7. Read and inwardly digest it.
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
...I have a problem with God behaving as mortals like you rightly pointed out. I have never denied the usefullness of religion. I have always maintained that it's a very effective tool of controlling human behaviour and that makes it indispensible for humans to evolve in societies. The concept of heaven and hell and where one wants to go is a very powerful instrument and people who subscribe to various religions hold heaven and hell in very high regard. For me - It's all here.
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
can you give me you solid proof that He doesn't exist?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
LIB: I think religion can be usefull, just that it has been used as an excuse to split Humans and sometimes ends up by being descriminatory and even contradictory, one good example is that all say that God is perfect and then, it's described to be a God who behaves just like any mere mortal.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Sorry didn’t know that..Thanks for enlightening me.
I would have not asked that question to anyone else other than Gypsy. I know she don’t mind.
tallg, do you beleive that a soul exists?
...you are absolutely right.Solid proof is what is missing and I shall have it....hehehehe lol..
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
dmigty - you know full well that science has a different take on how the world and how we came to be, and you probably guessed that this would be my answer.
Please don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people choosing religion and following God. But there's no way they'll ever convince me God exists until they present solid proof.
LifeisBeautiful said "I don't believe in what you believe as much as you don't believe in what I believe. I don't want to change you so why are you attempting to change me.. "
- Precisely. Don't bother. We're all just stating our PoVs here. Respect others, live and let live because everyone is accountable for their own lives. Some people take being "my brother's keeper" literally.
/For monotheists, it only matters in the private domain.
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
You know what, if you look at most of the turmoil in the world it is caused by religious strife. Nothing will change until you all wake up and accept the LOGICAL fact...There IS NO GOD!!!
Gypsy said "No what "God" does is provide easy answers FS. There's a reason these "miracles" occur and God is not the answer, I'm not ashamed to say I don't know what is yet, but I don't think we should just chalk everything up to God and stop looking for the real answers."
I agree with Gypsy to the extent that some people who believe in God tend to not strive to find "real answers" as you put it. They tend to be at peace and fatalistic in their approach to life, as I am. However, I'm different in the sense that I see that God has given me a brain, so I will use it to be best of my ability, pray for wisdom to overcome problems and persevere through anything that comes my way and I eventually overcome obstacles. Being human, I have my fears and concerns and talk about it but actually, ultimately leave it to God.
Anyway, if like in FS's example, I am terminally ill, exhaust all medical and prayer avenues, I will be at peace if God wills it is my time to go. (But prefer to go as painlessly as possible!)
/Btw, this is not the view of Chinese people generally - they're allergic to any mention of death so don't mention it to them unless you know them well enough. Don't assume that every Chinese (or Malaysian) is like me.
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
I don't know how you will explain how this world came into existence? If you see a house in the forest, is that enough to conclude that somebody built it? What more this world we live in?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Nice song, tallg.
Gypsy said "Correct VB, but you dont' need religion to do that. Infact in my experience most athiests are more moral and have a higher sense of accountablity then most "believers"
- That's cos some "believers" are nominal - they go by blind "faith", just because someone else said it was a good idea. Different for the ones who questioned and sought answers from reading coupled with advice from people who were more mature than they were. The reading being the primary source of information because cannot really rely on people totally. A person who appears to be spiritually mature, may not be but rather biased in some way or has some ulterior motives or an ego the size of Africa but is not self aware, etc. etc.
By the way, there is such a thing as spiritual pride as well. There is a very fine line between pride/arrogance and confidence. Being human, can fall / fail at any time. And that's why studying, prayers, congregating together to support each other are important. Having said that, still have to be careful, some will be ever so domineering and insist they are right, etc. some will pretend to be accepting initially and then when they think they have you under their control or think you owe them and thus would be willing to follow meekly,they start with their nonsense. While the meek shall inherit the earth but being meek does not mean being weak and easily bulldozed.
Thank God that I have met so many kind and genuine people all my life. ... But then again, it could be because I ditched the problematic ones...
Btw, I'm not saying there aren't hypocrites - there are many but we are answerable to our Maker for our own lives. To anyone who judges me, have a nice day! ;0)
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
your posting won't make me! Good afternoon to you!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
sorry if I made you furious Sir. Peace.V.
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
1. ever heard of.....
2. why don't you check mine?
3. you have problem with that?
I'm just reacting and giving insights. I'm not questioning you belief. Now my final question, are you?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
What do you mean by just "Why,you have?...
lol...you are funny.
Let's just be content with our beliefs.I'am not questioning yours you don't question mine.
Peace!
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
LIB...very nicely put :)
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
...want to be 'served'.He doesn't need us humans to be 'served'.He doesn't prescribe to me his desire to be served.He is everywhere but is not bound in the pages of a book.He doesn't prescribe anything . You have a problem with that?
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
you must be so intelligent that God is just something to you!!!!! God is everything to me! I believe He owes my life and every breath I take, it all depends on Him. He deserved to be served the way He wanted to be serve and not by my standards.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
put what you learn in practice! Do you really understand that equation?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
There is the Law of Karma and there is my God. Read my post above. My god will recognize me irrespective of what I do or believe. My god is benevolent.He dows not 'feel' or 'ignore'. He is the energy. Just that I don't give him/her a name and simply call him/her Universe. Ever heard of E=MC2 ?
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
what is important is God recognize you. I won't argue with atheist. They don't acknowledged God so for sure, they are not also recognize by Him. Time will definitely come when one will need Him, whether you believe or not. The question is, will God be there for them who ignored Him?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
and recite what is asked of you. For finding god you don't need to go to a particular place.God is found within you.Though I don't believe in 'subscribing' to a religion;I do believe in a supreme power which you call 'God' and my relationship with him is absolute and I know that I don't need the crutches of religion to communicate or have faith in him. I don't believe in what you believe as much as you don't believe in what I believe. I don't want to change you so why are you attempting to change me by suggesting a place. I'am not in doubt about what I believe.I guess you are.
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
Quote
Religion brings light and peace to ones heart and soul plus it gives enlightenment into your life, clear all doubts
Unquote
Are you sure about this?.. what you said are just in books and preaches. it has ruined the world peace, killed millions. Religion and peace are together only in the books.
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Listen to Many..Speak to a few.
As far as I'm aware there's no definite proof that God exists, and I can't believe in something that hasn't been proved. That's just how I work.
Visiting the Fanar centre wont change that, and neither will Googling websites about Islam or religion, which is why I've never done it (why did you assume I had?).
ones life. No prejudice, not judging at all.
Remember all the messenger of God has spread the words and the message of God to the people. It is ones heart, which follows in certain directions but only when they really intend to seek knowledge.
There are many incidents where people were so stubborn and rigid in their thoughts that even closeness to the prophets didn't benefit them. Many even killed the prophets. There is no end to such debates and discussions.
We could just show the right path and,
this is only in the Hands of God to give 'Hidayah' means turn your hearts towards the right direction.
I agree that we have faith and belief in 'Ghayb' which is truely a blind faith, which our hearts accepted.
LIB, I respect your thoughts, you talk like Rajnish, who said only weak people need God and God is the creation of human's fear, weakness and helplessness.
However, I DISAGREE.
A humble and kind request to LIB, tallg and Gypsy to please do more research, analyse and identify the Creator of universe by visiting Fanar centre in Doha and not by googles websites to avoid many corrupted, misguiding unislamic websites.
But you are judging them VB, you said: "They are actually like rough diamonds and with proper knowledge of Religion, will make them a shining Gem."
Again, is this what your religion teaches you? To judge others?
No ways they are inferior; Humans are creation of God and most superior of all other creations.
Who are we to judge anybody, everybody has to analyse and verily responsible for his/her personal deeds.
God has His own parameters and scale through which He will judge each individual.
Religion brings light and peace to ones heart and soul plus it gives enlightenment into your life, clear all doubts.
If not mistaken, we had some detail discussion on existence of god in the thread of 'AM I Christian or Muslim'.
If we chalked everything we don't understand up to God humans would never have achieved what they have. Imagine if all the scientists had just put everything down to God, instead of investigating and discovering things? You certainly wouldn't being discussing things with other people over the internet on a computer.
DS, in the words of Thomas Jefferson "It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing, than to believe what is wrong."
No what "God" does is provide easy answers FS. There's a reason these "miracles" occur and God is not the answer, I'm not ashamed to say I don't know what is yet, but I don't think we should just chalk everything up to God and stop looking for the real answers.
Thats what we Comprehend as the supremepower the GOD..
Many a time where humans fail GOD succeed!
...or the true religion is not the issue.The issue is that every religion does the same - Puts a blind in front of your eyes to keep you from seeing the truth.To me,all religions are mere constructs of scheming humans who find it a handy instrument to control human behaviour. This is my view and I will not change it. :Look around you and you will see the truth in what I'am trying to put across.
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
No idea FS, but I know the last thing I would do is say "well it must have been God" what I would say is "Great, now lets find out how that happened, because maybe we can make it happen again."
Saying that "it must be God" is the same as throwing up your hands and admitting defeat.
ok... I have a question..
If you or someone very dear to you is fatally ill and the doctors says that they done all possible treatments...but unfortunately there is no chance for survival..and if a believer prays for you and like a miracle you are survived....without any proper medical explanation.....
who would you give the credit to?
because man did not find the true religion. Those who belonged to false religion is same as those who don't have one! What is happening nowadays have been foretold a long time ago. Nothing to be surprised of!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Entertaining lyrics about how religion has been misused; http://www.qatarliving.com/node/412507
FS I went to church until I was 12. Then my parents gave me the choice, since I could never quite wrap my head around the idea of a talking snake, a virgin birth and a guy who walks on water as being real I stopped going.
My parents do believe in "God" but like me they don't believe in religion, which is a human construct.
VB run now...lol...
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
So what their lack of blind faith in obvious horseshit is what's keeping them from being "gems" in your eyes? That speaks more to your prejudice and lack of morality VB. Is viewing these people as "inferior" what your "God" teaches you?
Do you also want to shine? lol you look like an uncut diamond now:)
Just curious... Do your parents beleive in GOD? have you ever been to a church?
individuals who don't believe in any religion (one in Pakistan another in Kenya).
At the same time they are very respectable, educated and responsible citizens.
They are actually like rough diamonds and with proper knowledge of Religion, will make them a shining Gem.
My experience says that most of the time we misunderstood religion.
...anyways religion does more harm than good to the world. We would be much better off without any of these.Blasphemy? No. IMO only! lol...
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
Like they say "i'd rather live me life knowing there is a GOD and die to find out there isnt, than living my life believing there is NO GOD, and die to find out there IS" :p
Good Fortune always comes knocking at your door...when you are sh*tting in the toilet!! :)
_[]~SMoKE~[]_
Huh?
definitely!!!!!!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Correct VB, but you dont' need religion to do that. Infact in my experience most athiests are more moral and have a higher sense of accountablity then most "believers"
there are always difference of opinions and views; but We could not respect and honor all.
We all know that in our own conscience and to the best of our knowledge and understanding that there are something which are Right and something which are Wrong; Freedom to follow any route is fine, which should have defined rules.
Excessive freedom leads to misuse of freedom given to a group of people, where there is no personal, social accountability and responsibility. Remember delegation of Authority should be given with proper accountability.
It is the job of the State should ensure to provide opportunities to Its PEOPLE for creation of a free and fair society with clear guidance about do's and don't.
Being an educated modern society, they need to understand the purpose and objective of their life, identify their strength and weaknesses. Use the power of youth and their energy into the developement and progress of the nation.
Provide proper education to their people for the establishment of stable, moral, modern amd social community. These would definitely help their brains to work in the right directions and provide strong belief, confidence and understanding to analyse accurately What is Right & What is Wrong?
Wow, you got the point: it's easier to believe than to understand. 't's what I always said.
Well just saying theres a God is the easy answer. Isn't it best to be paitient for the real answers then just apply the easy way out.
'Cause there are so many questions unanswered. And he has no patience to wait until they are answered.
Why?
He will 'invent' one, gypsy.
Sure. There's no God. Now whatcha ya goin to do?
2, arien.
Sorry VB but I don't believe there are Gomorrahs, there are just different cultures and different ways of life, and even though those ways may seem wrong to us, our ways may seem wrong to them.
I can't imagine why :D
"About 12 percent of Americans believe in a higher power but not the personal God at the core of monotheistic faiths."
I do love this part :)
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
No religion - wow !! wish there was a survey worldwide to see how far it is getting rid of the madness. Anyways am one.
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Listen to Many..Speak to a few.
what they believe in, self, own intelligence? what life they live? there are always certain questions one need to answer? purpose or objective of life, what and why there is end to life? etc, etc....
Dont you think they are Gomorrahs? need proper guidance and clear thoughts. These people, could easily get preyed to people like Bhagwan Rajnish, great magicians and philosophers.
God bless all and take care.
How about "Have a Nice Day" by Bon Jovi for CrazyFish?
/It actually means find a lake and jump into it.
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
Mmmm......an idea is born. I'll look into it. That's enough hijacking of your lovely thread.
Nice use of song title for the thread title by the way. We should have a competition for how many song titles someone can drop into QL in a day.
"In keeping with the Spirit of today"... Lol! ;)
"More Americans say they have no religion." - To each his/her own. Believe by faith but be true to oneself and not be swayed by others.
Force, intimidation, brainwashing, "strategic alliances" Lol!, emotional blackmail, etc are just not acceptable. Many have tried with me and failed, and this includes even Christians and Atheists, etc.
In respect of the Christians, they were trying to force me to accept their interpretations of the Truth and judged me to be heading for Hades because even though I was listening to their opinions but I was not following them. They took my initial silence as weakness and thought I was an easy target. Then they tried to pressure me to be a follower of their beliefs and that was when they didn't know what hit them. I didn't embarrass them in public but did not mince my words in private. They weren't happy and I was prepared to let them go.
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
Same. Can we do a daily vote? Might be easier to go with weekly.
We'd have to put it to the vote though, cos my views certainly don't reflect those of the whole of QL! Plus I don't watch the site 24/7 (more like 12/7 :)
You totally should.
Most inane post of the day
Biggest hijacker of the day
Least commented on topic of the day
Most commented on topic of the day.
It takes a lot to win that award. I might start a daily awards thread. Need to come up with some more categories.
That's pretty impressieve eh Tallg, given the sheer number of ridiculous comments today.
How is that even possible crazyfish? Stop spouting nonsense.
and the award for most ridiculous comment of the day goes to crazyfish
hmm, are all these Americans are Zionists!!
Me? Probably, but I wouldn't listen anyway so what does it matter.
Do you really need 'guidance', gypsy?
Since Atheism is now considered a religion, should I be happy to consider myself part of the world's fastest growing religion. :P
Not a big loss.