Insulting the Prophet.. Not Tolerated!

There are not a billion people who don't care... the vast majority of people DO care about Prophet Mohammed PBUH, Jesus or other religious icons...

And the question of anyone doing anything to change that is an irrelevant notion...

mean, but you must just like arguing for the sake of it.

Gandhi has nothing to do with religion

The point is, there are millions, maybe even billions of people who dont care who mohd, jesus, ghandhi and the others are.You may not agree with that, but there is nothing you can do to change that.

Oh, and its phookit,not phukit.

Thanks.

I dunno if the Vatican would encourage this kind of thing either...

The Vatican Criticizes Western Media for Publishing Cartoons of Prophet (Vatican City, Europe)

Feb 3, 2006

The Washington Times/UPI

On February 3, 2006 United Press International reported, "The Vatican Friday criticized western media for inflaming the Muslim world by running derogatory cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed. Cardinal Archille Silvestrini, head of the Vatican's department for Eastern Churches, told the Corriere della Sera freedom is not an absolute... 'We, too, here in Europe, should rebel against the idea of mocking religious symbols,' Silvestrini said. 'Freedom to satirize which offends other people's feelings becomes prevarication.' The Italian news agency ANSA reported other clerics support Silvestrini's position. 'Freedom of the press, including satire, must stop where religious belief begins,' said Cardinal Ersilio Tonini, former archbishop of Ravenna . 'There should be more respect for religion, whatever religion it is. What has happened over the last few days is an ugly, very ugly sign which should make us think.'"

there, happy now ?

the jews take their religion pretty seriously too...

.

Its the way of some parts of the world...

that people are responsible for their reactions to other people. Because as you said, some people will never play fair. They WILL say hurtful things, things that make you want to b*tch slap the hell out of them. But you can't go there...

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

or who jesus or any of the other religious leaders were.

Thats the way of the world I'm afraid.

the message is simple, insulting the Prophet is taboo

People keep talking about criticism...

'Criticism' is different from 'Insulting'

check your dictionaries

is a valid comment/criticism to another. And while every country, religion and group has its extremists, let's be frank: the Muslim masses haven't really done much to show themselves as being very open to or tolerant of criticism of their faith. Even when the criticism comes from those inside the community of Islam, the response is usually either dismissive or threatening ; rarely is it thoughtful and considerate.

As has been said time and time again, just because YOUR religion forbids criticism of your prophets or artistic depictions of them, doesn't mean that those who don't subscribe to your religion must follow suit.

Of course, one hopes that people everywhere will behave decently and not use emotionally charged words to incite others on touchy and controversial topics, but that's not something you can mandate.

You can't control the behavior and actions of others; all you can do is control you reaction to them.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

always try to avoid such things to be insulted Prophet (P.B.U.H) or any other religion. nd this is my DEEPLY HEARTHLY REQUEST to all over the WORLD.

Thanks for everyone co-operation.

Hmm thats a looong thread to go thru..

None hates something without a reason.

What can be done to stop the followers turning extremists, why does this happen??..once thats solved,Everyone will respect the religion,prophet and the book.

ther is no other way to get rid of the hatred.

______________________________________________

- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -

It's interesting. We all get verses in the Quran spammed at us to justify behaviour or to prove points. But when we do it back, it gets claimed that it is only a translation and we couldn't possibly have an understanding of what it means.

I could read mutant.....

Graduated from Xavier Institute for Higher learning.

Back to my question: How did the universe create itself. Watch this video pls:

http://www.thedeenshow.com/videos.php?action=listvideo&sid=42&id=259

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

I'm not saying that the translations are useless or that you cannot be a Muslim without understanding Arabic. I was responding to those who say that there are contradictions in the Quran. That might be due to the translation.

The fact that God's message is for all people, in all times and places says to me it is a universal message. To try to complicate it or place it out of the reach of all but Arabic readers is to imply Arab superiority and limit Islam, in my view.

Actually, I have never had an Arab tell me that my reading Pickthall's translation is not valid and is lacking.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

and when I leave here everything will be better.

thanks and so long to Ql.

Translating a 1400 years old book isn't like translating something like a UN document where there are sharp agreed upon terms and phrases.

Anyway.. Whatever you say Ma'am :)

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Most people don't question translations in this day when translators are increasingly better trained. This is only your argument here; and a convenient one at that :-)

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Let me tell you about wars in Islam as this is what I know.. I don't know about other nations' wars.

When the Prophet Muhammed received the message of God to guide ppl from paganism to monotheism he peacefully called his ppl to reject worshipping idols. He used logic with them, but the VIPs resisted and plotted to kill him not because their Gods told them to do so, but because they dreaded the ides of being treated in equality with their slaves and the poor in their community.

Others (namely the jews) were expecting a prophet to be sent in Arabia as the Torah told them, but they were hoping that he would be from among them. When they heard that he was chosen from among the Arabs they pledged to fight him.

This is how it began so the Prophet HAD to fight back!

So ur saying those wars would have not taken place anyway without religion... they wouldnt be called religion wars in this case...

U asked for expamples ...

Combat is inevitable among human being with or withour religion. Is it called 'conflict of wills'?. IF ppl HAVE to engage in war, religion puts things in order defining what a purpose of war should be, how being FAIR is crucial, what NOT to do in wars..etc.

Please next time don't flood the pages with copy/paste but summerize :)

So ur saying this is all a lie ... no religious wars took place ?

Now if someone read an Arabic translation of a book that was originally written in English, his criticism to the author or to the original writing will be questioned because he based his criticism on a translated version which is affected by the tranlator's perception, understanding and accuracy.

The European Wars of Religion, the Crusades, and the Reconquista are frequently cited historical examples.

While there are undoubtedly wars fought primarily on religious grounds, wars frequently have multiple and complex causes. Saint Augustine is credited as being the first to detail a “Just War” theory within Christianity, whereby war is justifiable on religious grounds. Saint Thomas Aquinas elaborated on these criteria and his writings were used by the Roman Catholic Church to regulate the actions of European countries. In modern times religious designations are frequently used as shorthand for cultural and historical differences between combatants, giving the impression that the conflict is primarily about religious differences. For example, The Troubles in Northern Ireland are frequently seen as a conflict between Catholic and Protestant. However, the more fundamental cause is the attachment of Northern Ireland to either the Republic of Ireland or the United Kingdom. As the native Irish were mostly Catholic, and the later English-sponsored immigrants mainly Protestant, the terms become shorthand for the two cultures. It cannot be denied, however, that religion does play a part in the conflict, since churches are used as organizing points for demonstrations, and Protestants are far more likely to oppose union with the Catholic-dominated Republic.

Many wars that are not Religious wars, often still include elements of religion such as priests blessing battleships. Also differences in religion can further inflame a war being fought for other reasons. Historically temples have been military targets that are destroyed to weaken the morale of the opponent, even when the war itself is not being waged over religious ideals.

The view upon religions versus another is very debatable. For example, in the USA, and in other places around Europe, many people would agree that terrorism is part of an ongoing war of religion. However, who is fighting who is the main topic that is so hard to define. Is it Christianity vs. Muslims? Or is it the The West vs. Middle East? Or visa-versa? Many people have different views, definitions and opinions upon this subject.

Jihad

See also: Jihad and Itmam al-hujjah

Jihad is to strive or struggle in the way of God, and is sometimes referred to as the sixth pillar of Islam, although it has no official status.[1] Jihad has a wider meaning in Islamic literature. It can be striving to lead a good Muslim life, praying and fasting regularly, being an attentive spouse and parent or working hard to spread the message of Islam.[2] Jihad is also used in the meaning of struggle for or defence of Islam, the holy war. Despite the fact that Jihad is not supposed to include aggressive warfare, this has occurred, as exemplified by early extremists like Kharijites and contemporary groups like Egypt’s Jihad Organization (which assassinated Anwar Al Sadat) as well as Jihad organizations in Lebanon, the Gulf states, and Indonesia.[1]

In Muhammad’s time, after Itmam al-hujjah (completion of the proof, a doctrine in Islam related to prophets), polytheists of Arabia were asked for submission to Islam as a condition for exoneration and the others for jizya and submission to the political authority of the Muslims for exemption from death punishment and for military protection as the dhimmis of the Muslims.[3] Islamic scholars have different opinions on Jihad, however, there is a consensus that armed struggle against persecution and oppression will always continue.[3]

Crusades

Main article: Crusade

The Crusades were a series of military campaigns—usually sanctioned by the Papacy—that took place during the 11th through 13th centuries. Originally, the goal was to recapture Jerusalem and the Holy Land from the Muslims and at supporting the Byzantine Empire against the Muslim Seljuq expansion into Asia Minor. The fourth crusade however was diverted and resulted in the conquest of Constantinople. Later on, Crusades were launched against other targets, either for religious reasons, such as the Albigensian Crusade, the Northern Crusades, or because of political conflict, such as the Aragonese Crusade. In 1095, at the Council of Clermont, Pope Urban II raised the level of war from Bellum iustum (”just war“), to bellum sacrum.[4]

Wars of Religion

Main article: Wars of Religion

In 16th Century France there was a succession of wars between Roman Catholics and Protestants (Hugenots primarily). The series of wars has been known as the Wars of Religion.

Thirty years war

Main article: Thirty Years War

German states, Scandinavia (Sweden, primarily) and Poland were beset by religious warfare. Roman Catholicism and Lutheranism figured in the opposing sides of this conflict.

Milhemet Mitzvah

Main article: Milhemet Mitzvah

The Judaic term for a holy war. The way of declaring one is outlined in the Hebrew Bible.

References

1.^ a b John Esposito(2005), Islam: The Straight Path, pp.93

2.^ John Esposito(2002). Unholy war: terror in the name of Islam, Oxford University Press, US. ISBN 0-19-515435-5. pp.26

3.^ a b Ghamidi, Javed (2001). “The Islamic Law of Jihad“, Mizan. Dar ul-Ishraq. OCLC 52901690.

4.^ Christian Jihad: The Crusades and Killing in the Name of Christ

Retrieved from “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war“

Current Wars:

Afghanistan:……Extreme, radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups, non-Muslims. Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan. They were protected by, and integrated with, the Taliban dictatorship in the country. The Northern Alliance of rebel Afghans, Britain and the U.S. attacked the Taliban and Al Quada, establishing a new regime in part of the country. The fighting continues.

Bosnia:……Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims. Fragile peace is holding, due only to the presence of peacekeepers.

Côte d’Ivoire:……Muslims, Indigenous, Christian. Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces “began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants…”

A military uprising continued the slaughter in 2002.

Cyprus:……Christians, Muslims. The island is partitioned,creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability.

East Timor:……Christians, Muslims. A Roman Catholic country. About 20% of the population died by murder, starvation or disease after they were forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide and religious cleansing. The situation is now stable.

India:……Animists, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs. Various conflicts that heat up periodically producing loss of life.

Indonesia, province of Ambon:……Christians, Muslims. After centuries of relative peace, conflicts between Christians and Muslims started during 1999-JUL in this province of Indonesia. The situation now appears to be stable.

Iraq:……Kurds, Shiite Muslims, Sunni Muslims, western armed forces. By mid-2006, a small scale civil war, primarily between Shiite and Sunni Muslims started. The situation appears to be steadily degenerating.

Kashmir:……Hindus, Muslims. A chronically unstable region of the world, claimed by both Pakistan and India. The availability of nuclear weapons and the eagerness to use them are destabilizing the region further. More details Thirty to sixty thousand people have died since 1989.

Kosovo:……Serbian Orthodox Christians, Muslims. Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim).

Kurdistan:……Christians, Muslims. Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic, Assyrian Orthodox).

Macedonia:……Macedonian Orthodox Christians, Muslims. Muslims (often referred to as ethnic Albanians) engaged in a civil war with the rest of the country who are primarily Macedonian Orthodox Christians. A peace treaty has been signed. Disarmament by NATO is complete.

Middle East:……Jews, Muslims, Christians. The peace process between Israel and Palestine suffered a complete breakdown. This has resulted in the deaths of thousands, in the ratio of three dead for each Jew. Major strife broke out in 2000-SEP. Major battle in Lebanon during mid-2006. No resolution appears possible.

Nigeria:……Christians, Animists, Muslims. Yourubas and Christians in the south of the country are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towards democracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships.

Northern Ireland:……Protestants, Catholics. After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, some progress has been made in the form of a ceasefire and an independent status for the country.

Pakistan:……Suni, Shi’ite Muslims. Low level mutual attacks.

Philippines:……Christians, Muslims. A low level conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country has continued for centuries.

Russia,Chechnya:……Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims. The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Many atrocities have been alleged on both sides. According to the Voice of the Martyrs: “In January 2002 Chechen rebels included all Christians on their list of official enemies, vowing to ‘blow up every church and mission-related facility in Russia’.”

South Africa:……Animists, “Witches”. Hundreds of persons, suspected and accused of witches practicing black magic, are murdered each year.

Sri Lanka:……Buddhists, Hindus. Tamils (a mainly Hindu 18% minority) are involved in a war for independence since 1983 with the rest of the country (70% Sinhalese Buddhist). Hundreds of thousands have been killed. The conflict took a sudden change for the better in 2002-SEP, when the Tamils dropped their demand for complete independence. The South Asian Tsunami in 2004-DEC induced some cooperation. The situation in mid-2006 is degenerating.

Sudan:……Animists, Christians, Muslims. Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict in which the Muslim regime committed genocide against both Animists and Christians in the south of the country. Slavery and near slavery were practiced. A ceasefire was signed in 2006-MAY between some of the combatants. Warfare continues in the Darfur region, primarily between a Muslim militia and Muslim inhabitants.

Thailand:……Buddhists, Muslims. Muslim rebels have been involved in a bloody insurgency in southern Thailand — a country that is 95% Buddhist. The army has seized power and has agreed to talks with the rebels.

Tibet:……Buddhists, Communists. Country was annexed by Chinese Communists in late 1950’s. Brutal suppression of Buddhism continues.

Uganda:…. Animists, Christians, Muslims. Christian rebels of the Lord’s Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year.

question for QatariLady: on page 1 of this thread, you said something like Indians can't read Arabic so they shouldn't criticize the Quran.

So do you mean that Muslims who are not literate in Arabic have no right to criticize anything in the Quran? What about translations of the Quran? Or do you disallow those (in which case, I would think you'd have to disallow the conversion of anyone who isn't truly literate in Arabic, for how could they make an informed choice to convert if they can't read the literal word of God in the original (Arabic) Quran?).

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Please do..

can give u 50 example of religion motivated wars in the last few hundred yrs,,this was not the message of god to humain race!

Violence now is carried out by desperate individuals or groups who are frustrated at the injustice in the world.. It's psychological not religious. I'm talking now about the chaotic terrorism not the legitimate resistance in some places.

Whoever died at the time in North America or elsewhere, is in no way a justification for any religious violence now ... religions were to promote peace and harmony living... Yet all wars recently have been originated either by religion or by greed and politics both rejected by all beliefs...

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

People are dying all over in the name of religion … Who the hell follows a religion that promotes death!

I will not stick to what I said stubbornly because I didn't perfom a head-count.

My point it it's not religion that kills but greed. Did the Japanese ppl die because of disease too? Oh yeah that was the side-effects of the nuclear bomb that Jesus sent them.

Biological weapon! yummy......!

"When your ancestors went to North America they killed 80 million Indians." Stick to what you said, QatariLady. You said there were 80 million Indians killed in North America. There never, ever have been 80 million people living in North America in these days. The biggest bunch of people lived in Central- and South America. And, by the way, most of them were not killed by the sword, but by diseases. Maybe spreading a disease is a "religious" tactic or weapon in your view.

80 million, maybe/maynot be?

this thread is still going? why don't you call for each other's murder, and see if THAT is enough to get the thread locked.

When Muslims express themselves verbally you say they're arrogant.. When they fight injustice you say they're terrorists! A good Muslim to you is the one who either dies under your armament or surrenders and says Amen to you, like Amer-Indians, Australians and South African indigenous ppls did!

a maximum of 25 million amer-indians,,,they were initially killed off by the Spaniards, who were on a mission for their middle eastern religion,,then the French came and converted but didn't overtly kill, but were driven, in part, by the Church,,,the British came and did their thing in a non-religious way.

The thing is that the Middle Eastern primary adherance to arrogance leaves no room for others to exist and prosper...the Nazis were the last of this crew, and it stemmed from this,,,aryan arrogence...you muslims re-state and re-state on here that you want world domination,,,I mean what the heck is all that crap about?? Self-esteem problem perhaps?? can't share your Bar-6?

But I would really wish the muslim world would just stop trying to shove their arrogant perspective down my throat.We are bigger and stronger, and more kind and gentle than you guys realize. I am, I am told, worth only 1/2 the value of an arab man.

You guys talk the talk, but I have not see any of the walk at all...except for arrogent land cruisers driving in the un-argueable way to tell me to f*** right off!

If you are going to talk the talk, then walk the walk..if not, go learn something and get in the program...

Add to that the casualties of World Wars I & II .. Those wars were not religious.

"In 1976, geographer William Denevan used these various estimates to derive a "consensus count" of about 54 million people, although some recent estimates are lower than that."

http://schools-wikipedia.org/wp/p/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples.htm

totally agree mmyke, but what else can one expect when you have nutters following the misinterpretations of an illiterate.

of course it only makes for mass confusion.

QL, this number is simply wrong. Before the Spanish (Columbus) came there never were 80 million people in the Americas.

When your ancestors went to North America they killed 80 million Indians. Those casualties outnumber all those of religious wars combined.

It's GREED over wordly possessions that causes mischief not religion!

go to Wikipedia, search and read "The Great Shaghetti Monster".

I said it before, and I will say it again,,the arrogance of these Middle Eastern religions is beyond belief. They have ruined to planet, and its sickening.

Another bombing today,,Iran and nucleur weapons,,,the christians doing their garbage,,,and the jews causing havoc...all this crap comes out of this corner of the world.

Thank goodness that when I go home, I can sit in a sweatlodge and gaze out over a beautiful river valley in the middke of the Rocky Mountains and forget about all of these stupid, indefensible positions.

Period.

After seeing what is in Aljazeera news this morning, now how would one be convinced that this thing speaks only peace.

MD,QL, nice discussion, I loved it...

Some children say red when it's blue. I'm glad I'm still a child.

Of course, later we are forced to call it blue. But deep inside, it's still red.

In this case you're confused about the 'name' of the color :)

Before you posted this I thought my computer was green, now I think it is pink. I'm confused.

hahaha like someone said if you can't convince them confuse them..

OK.. if I thought that your computer reflected lightwaves that have a wavelength of about 20 to the power of 4 m and the frequency was about 20 to the power of 15 hertz, this is MY PERCEPTION not the truth about your computer. Now that you told me the real 'data', this new information changed MY PERCEPTION, but the computer's truth remained the same. Did your computer change colors before and after my perception was changed? No..

The lightwaves the surface of my computer reflects have a wavelength of about 10 to the power of negative 3 m and the frequency is about 10 to the power of 12 Hertz. If you call that orange, I don't mind.

Whether you believe it or not this is your perception. But like smart-idiot put it the ultimate truth (reality) is that the money does exist.

Tell me what colour is the computer you're using now. I would guess it's orange. Is that true?

It affects my reality. Your reality and mine are different. I don't believe you have 1k in your purse. Why should I?

Your lack of knowledge (about the 1k riyals in my purse) affect your PERCEPTION of reality but it doesn't affect reality itself.

Study Chromodynamic? No thanx I have enough on my plate lol

Even if we don't 'see' real things they do exist nevertheless. Like gravity we don't see it but it's there. In the Quran Allah says what means: Allah who lifted/raised/up-held the skies without pillars that can see.. We don't see it but it exists. The same as all those particles and energy.

These people which you speak about do not know the real meaning of Ramadan.

They think that Ramadan is the month of television series and quiz shows.

They forget that Ramadan is the month of:

1. Work (where should work more specially reading the holy Quran and understanding its meanings and it the month of praying)

2. The month of forgiveness.

3. Month for making people behave better so no bad words or shouting or lie, ....etc.

4. The month where you become closer to God.

5. The month which makes how does those who does not have food feel.

6. The month where people help each other.

7. The month where you give more than what you take.

In the normal life we have a gab in the above points and Ramadan comes to train us on filling these gabs.

From my experience the best chemical plants production in Qatar is recorded in the month of Ramadan.

Also at the last ten nights of Ramadan there is one night if you prayed it with the people in the mosque it will be equivalent of worshiping God 83 years.

@ Qatarilady,on a bit of a tangent here but still a completely relevant question...why is it that you have an issue with random people insulting Prophet Mohammed on an open online forum when there is so much hypocricy among your fellow bretheren?...so 'true believer' muslim women are supposed to wear the abaya/hijab right?...of course we do,you're thinking,well it sort of defeats the purpose when the abaya/hijab in question clings to one's body like a 2nd skin or seems like they melted themselves & poured themselves into it to set,that's how tight they wear them with every curve showing & it's ONLY local girls/ladies i've seen that wear the abaya like that,now i'm not saying all of you do,but a good number of young & younger local girls/ladies is that not insulting Prophet Mohammed/His teachings??...please explain...one more thing,was reading through the replies & noticed you pointed out to an apparently Indian muslim person that they shouldn't talk authoritatively about the Quran as Arabic is not his/her mother tongue???...so you saying Gulf arabs are better muslims than the rest of the muslim world?...ironic because i'm reminded of something,now that the holy month is approaching,i'm not muslim but i have a good few muslim friends & what i've learnt from them about fasting during ramadan is that apart from more time spent in prayer/chariatble activities,one goes on with one's day as usual...NOT have Suhoor,pray,then pass out in airconditioned comfort for a few hours,make a token appearance @ the office for a couple of hours & of course not do much work because "ramadan, ana taaban" is the standard line,go home,pass out again,awake in time for iftar,pray,break fast,then the eating begins to continue all night until Suhoor again the next day,In Qatar,as is the case in the rest of the G.C.C,stastics have proven that there is a massive increase in grocery bills as well as higher incidence of diabetics/heart patients reporting to A&E @ Hamad hospital due to sustained,excessive consumption of rich,calorie laden food...excuse my ignorance,but isn't it supposed to be a month of ABSTINENCE??...now as for the finger you were pointing @ that Indian muslim for not being 'muslim enough',back home in India,he has to get to work the same time as everyone else,put in the same no: of hours & do the same amount of work he otherwise does,watch people drink water/tea/coffee,eat their lunch around him like normal,take a small break to pray & break his fast,then get back to work...that to me is the real meaning of the holy month NOT the hypocricy that goes on here,so please Qatarilady,let's be fair,questioning someone's faith is fine,using their non-arabic speaking background as justification is not...

uff wat a hot .. lemme on my A/C

MD, it doesn't matter whether it is irrelevant for you or not, what matter is the ultimate truth. And the ultimate truth that 1000 riyals really did exist in her purse.

MD, it doesn't matter whether it is irrelevant for you or not, what matter is the ultimate truth. And the ultimate truth that 1000 riyals really did exist in her purse.

It is already stated by Allah in Al-Quran in Surah Al-Baqarah:

2: 2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

2: 3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

The " the Unseen" statement of Allah is actually how we muslims really differ from non-muslims. Because we already believe these unseen (ghaiib) entities in our universe 1400 years ago, long before today that modern scientists and cosmologist discover. Dark matters and dark energies are just few from unseen entities we humans may discover some of them or may never will be discovered.

Your summary (and very loaded!) questions:

1. The Big Bang, who or what caused it? And, “It happened, so what?” is not an answer, it’s evading the question.

2. Gravity, who/what put it there and who/what keeps it the same?

3. Do you accept human law (submission to the will of the majority) even if it is disagreeable to you or acting against you.

4. Here’s one I couldn’t get to in the content. Can you tell me who does the selection in Natural Selection? Is it Mother Nature? Does she have a daughter ;-).

5. Finally, you say that your morals and values were not shaped by your experience with Islam or Islamic culture in your childhood. Is it possible that they were in fact shaped by your very negative experience and encouters with what appeared to be Islam at the time (and apparently still appears that way)?

My answers:

* 1. I do not know who that person was.

* 2. I do not know who that person was (I had no idea it was a person!).

* 3. It depends, because I could answer this question either way. So yes/no depending on whether that meant torturing babies or you may not speak out against religious belief.

* 4. I think its more Mother Nature’s second-cousin

* 5. No it does not.

These are all quite loaded questions. It also assumes any being was responsible for any of these things? Evolution by natural selection is as Darwin says “unguided”. The Big Bang is so far the best theory we have. The decisions of the state are always always always man-made.

I wonder why you think there has to be a person cranking the levers? Do you think it would fall apart unless Allah is there making sure the earth does not spin off its axis, that he selectively produced Homo sapiens? Surely you can understand that the evidence shows otherwise that there is no need for anyone to be selecting any genes or other replicators?

Anyway, that’s about as much as I can formulate as my head is trilling with the ShutUp AlarmTM. So, I hope I have answered your questions. And until I have engaged with Azami, Ramadan, Lawrence, etc. (in some cases, again!) we will suspend our discussions on certain aspects.

If some parts are a bit obscure, forgibve me – I was very tired when I wrote this!

Hope to hear from you soon! Cheers for now.

Tauriq

full details are in the following link:

http://marchofunreason.wordpress.com/online-blog-debate-between-muslim-atheist/

QatariLady,

While I agree to your advice for all sorts of belief, I think this should be given.

Those who express politely and professionally do not need a reminder, and those who insult will not respect no matter what.

Wow, suprisingly, now all the QLers expressed their desire wanting to go to heaven as well. I have to abandon my father and mother to be with you all now.

If I don't know that you have 1000 Riyals in your purse, then for me you don't have 1000 Riyals. It is irrelevant for me.

Come on MD!! Now you don't know that in my purse there's 1000 riyals. That doesn't deny the money's existence. You just don't know it's there!

'jdcdgdtdhyuhy' doesn't exist.. It's null.. It's not there!

I don't give things existence. They either exist or they don't. My knowledge is irrelevant!

See you laterz..

why nut?

jdcdgdtdhyuhy are a race of beautiful women. Unfortunately we do not know them, and we don't know where they are. So, again, do they exist or not? Are you the one who gives existence to things only because you know of them? Then, who the hell are you? God?

Why not?

The letters do exist but the concept doesn't, unless you show me or explain to me what 'jdcdgdtdhyuhy' is as a concept.. We don't see gravity but we know it's there because of its effect in nature.

Have a better and easier explanation for you if MD's are not clear enough...

Btw the translation was correct in the video ... I’m fluent in both Arabic and English...

I asked a Shiekh once... Q: if we believe in a god (any god) "no offense". He created all worlds ... Then who has created him? ... Or where did he come from? He had no answer to me.

I'm not denying his existence or disrespecting him

I believe in a supreme power and once we use more than 7% of our brain capacity then we might understand something

"Even if we don't 'see' real things they do exist nevertheless".

That's an interesting view. Do you know that jdcdgdtdhyuhy exist? You don't see them. But do they exist?

At your "scale", QL, you are right. On a scale of 10 to the power of -14 (the typical diameter of what we call nucleus) you won't be able to see any "real" matter. There will be fields of a strong and a weak nuclear force, mingling with an electro-magnetic force, and not being much affected by the gravitational force; oscillating energy condensations will be there with funny names like "quarks" or "gluons", and they all will follow a mathematical structure called the S(U)5 group. And you should really go and study the Chromodynamic Theory, which is already 45 years old, but still top of the pop.

evolution ?

The crazy world of QL...

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Long hours of devoted prayer and introspection whilst waiting for husband. I love husband.

Interpretation of real things. We can have different interpretations to how and why salt dissloves in water but these different interpretations don't deny that water and salt are real matters.

"tangible"? There is absolutely no way to touch a nucleus of an atom. It's a "field" being exposed to several forces, and we call it atom. But it is "nothing".

first of all prophet mohammed was prophet for all the humans present at his time and for the last human taking birth before the jugment day

so if u accept this or not it will not change the trut.

another improtant point u should understand is that he never founded any new religion...religion was already there from the time god created adam.

as the time passed by only the commandments changed and at the time of prophet mohammed the shariah rules or islam was finalled(deen became mukammal)

so the bottom line... he was gifted with islam.. he never founded a new religion.

besided insulting is concerned its because of lack of proper knowledge or out of jelousy

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NEVER ARGUE WITH A STUPID BECAUSE HE WILL TAKE U TO HIS LEVEL AND DEFEAT YOU.

Wrong. Nothing in modern physics is real! It's only interpretations of mathematical equations. In Newton's physics everything is real. But I said it before, it is old fashioned and out-dated.

I am tolerating.. I said it doesn't make sense to ME!

Anyway, physics is one of the natural sciences so whatever is claimed has to be real, tangible or at least logical. Right?

i m a muslim...first of all who told u that jesus(p.b.u.s) is dead...dont u no that time is near that he will decend form the sky in damascus none of the prophets send by god r dead in true terms they r still alive by the mercy of god(techinically thier souls have departed from their body...just to avoid the argument)but this does not mean they r dead

"turning virtual into real doesn't make sense to me". That is correct, QL. But it makes sense to a lot of other people. Why don't you just tolerate it, as you claim we should? Just because somebody cannot understand doesn't give him the right to reject it. Why don't you say: "Sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying.? Then I would say: "I know, QL."

To "understand" the virtual and the nothing in physics you really need to forget everything you thought you knew before. Your language is not the language of physics!

QatariLady - Jus to confuse you more....

All the matter than we see... is nothing but infinitesimally small particles.... dancing at high frequency cause of the energy it posses....

A ATOM... if considered as big as a Football ground..

Then the nucleus is a peanut kept in the middle...

and the remaining area is a cloud of electrons ... dancing here n there...

It there is no energy in the electrons.. thing as big as a football ground shall shrink into peanut size.... :)

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

I'm not boycotting Danish products it's useless..I only VOICE my objection..

And still turning virtual into real doesn't make sense to me unless you have real things to begin with, like putting an idea (virtual) into a product (real) you need real raw materials..

Have a nice day..

Life is Beautiful...Indeed!

Common guyz go on...

Sledging is banned on the cricket pitch... I think its still ON on QL...

If tht is wht entertains people... :)

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

QatariLady, the first thing you should do - if you were serious - was to kick out Maersk Oil. They are Denish! But then, oh dear, who will produce our oil and gas??

"So this means that 'nothing' actually contains particles and anti-particles". You still didn't get it, QL. The nothing contains virtual particles and anti-particles. Nothing real. But we can make it real. It is a bit of mathematics. And that's the point.

Atif

We the muslims need to learn more diplomacy most of the world gave lolly pops in the mouth of our people and they forgot the whole issue have you heard of RAND corporation.

Master78 - thank you!

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A wise young crackpot knows no fear - Ian Dury.

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A wise young crackpot knows no fear - Ian Dury.

This doen't mean that we neutralize our emotions.. It's not acceptable. Period!

What's this bank?

What had happened since the DANISH CARTOON incident?? We protested like a HURRICANE for few days and then got silent/cold just like the silence we feel when a POWERFUL HURRICANE has passed or died out.

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We can see all DANISH PRDUCTS in all islamic countries especially in QATAR. These products are still very much in demand among all nationals of any religion.

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Well extremely sorry to say, NOTHING WILL AFFECT OR CHANGE if again any person or any country insults our PROPHET MOHAMMAD [SAW]

So this means that 'nothing' actually contains particles and anti-particles.. This is really far from being 'nothing'..

Because prophets are concerned about their religion not about themselves..

"Nothing", as you understand it, QL, is empty. It does not exist. "Nothing" as physics interprets it, doesn't exist either, but it is far from empty: it is full of "Nothing". And this "Nothing" can become "Something", as long as it does not violate any law of conservation. (As you remarked correctly +1 + -1 = 0). So, whatever I want to create out of nothing is nothing, because it always comes with its "anti", or opposite. Both together are nothing again. What "created" the universe was a "slight imperfection" in this process. (I think this is the most common understanding on July 17, 2009).

The particles and anti-particles are like +1 and -1, when they meet they eliminate each other.. OK I get this one.. But how can 'nothing' have a potential? If it's not the 'nothing' that I know then why wasn't it given another name to be better understood? And if it does have any features (like the potential to form a well-organized universe) then it's not nothing, or it's nothing + potential.. Where did this potential come from?

Good christians likes good Muslims and vice versa.

A real Christian believes in Muhammed and a real Muslim believes in Jesus.

Ideally all people should respect each other

crusified on the cross by the Jews - Jesus response was "forgive them father, cause they know not what they do."

"if you don't like the heat... get out of the kitchen... but stop trying to fan the flames before you leave... it will burn you on the a** as you go through the doorway...." ME

visit www.qaws.org

those who slander May Allah perish them, give them the worst death, Let them scream for Mercy killing

let them die of pandemic, let them die in Tsunamis/earthquakes

QatariLady, a "virtual" or "potential" thing doesn't really exist. So, there is no need to create it. The problem is that you don't understand the term "virtual" as physics does it. You don't even understand what "nothing" in physics means. One more try: "nothing" does not exist, hence it doesn't require a creator. On the other hand it is filled with every possible entity, virtually. At a certain energy level the "virtual" entities have a choice to become "real" or not. This also called spontaneous creation out of the nothing. (Remember, nothing is different from your nothing). Because the laws of conservation don't allow the creation out of nothing, everything is created together with its anti-particle. The sum of both is nothing again. So no law was violated. But, some particles never found their anti-particle and continued to exist. The universe is made of these fluctuations. But, no creator was required to create the nothing.

You're right the Prophet did not take revenge for himself because his concern was how to get the ppl away from paganism not how to assert his own dignity.

To us it's more emotional.. WE cannot tolerate to see him wronged or described in a hateful way..

that's why I opened this thread.. Note the language I used; "kindly requested", "Thank you", "Please" "I understand"..etc. However it's still not good enough to those religion-hypersensitive!

receive punishment after some time and because God is the most Merceful there will always be certain time for them to come back.

When our prophet Muhammed went Al Tayef, the non muslims through stones on him until a lot of blood went out from his feet and body, the angels said if you wish Muhammed we will those people who hit youu to be crused between the two mountains, our prphet said no maybe one will come from them and worriship God.Later on when the prophet won in Mecca he asked the non muslims who gave alot of trouble to him, what do you think I will do with you? The said you a generous man and son of a generous man.

Did our prophet take his revange?

No, he simpley told them go you are free.

That's Plan B :)

Wait a second? Why did you post a thread about it? I thought the normal reaction for insults to Allah was to burn embassies and kill innocent people???? There's not even a call to boycott something on this site. Pffft. And you say you "love" Allah.

let us argue in a good way

no one has insulted ql members

I don't think so.. Even if some resist and object, they're still learning what we CANNOT tolerate and over time they will learn to respect that even if out of "etiquette"!

you are good at posting copy pasted articles about islam. and now at debate time you are giving up????

Such a loser you are with a weak faith.

Stop posting next time about Islam.

Why?!!

m dragon.. all ur posts are beyond my level o' comprehension...i'm actually convinced ur from an alien species..or u on something that i'm really scared to do myself..n ..what the @%^&*????????? r u on!!! 8-)

when the topic goes to a new direction, a friendlier tone, should i quit..yes.. i think i should..

Then the first thing I should do now is to Uncreate you!

Drac said:

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yes, my lady!

YOU!

2 weeks 3 days ago! :)

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.

Again.. Says the Creator who gave this universe its potential.. I know you don't believe in this but you haven't yet fully answer my question.. Who created that small virtual thing? Pls don't say that it created itself.. Can anything create itself out of nowhere?

Imagine, Qatar is 365 days holiday. Imagine, my whole life is a dream. What now?

In your dreams! MD

Then they probably used the javalin or the sword. But that was silly. Men are better with a sword.

And then, edifis, did you see them, or is it hearsay? I myself fought in Troy. Ever heard of me?

MD, Hippolyta and Xena had 2 breasts.

Says who?

This is not evil but a temporarily life that in the right time gives way to the eternal one..

I AM a lady but a multi-lingual one.. Whatever language is needed I'll speak it.

Amazons had only one breast, QS, so they could use the bow (and arrow). I can't understand why Achilles fell in love with Pentesilea, the Amazone Queen, during the Trojan War (around 1200 BC) if she had only one breast.

How the Muslim Deals With People

From Aa'ishah (radiyAllâhu 'anhaa) who said that a man sought permission to enter upon the Prophet (salAllâhu 'alaihi wa'sallam), so he said:

"Give permission to him and what a bad son of his people (or: what a bad man of his people). Then when he entered he spoke politely to him. Aa'ishah said: So I said: O Messenger of Allâh, you said about him what you said and then you spoke politely to him? He said: O Aa'ishah the worst people in station before Allâh on the Day of Resurrection are those whom the people desert, or abandon, in order to save themselves from their evil speech." (54)

The universe is evil from the moment it broke supersymmetry and destroyed entropy. It is constructed so as to constantly try to wipe us out. If you think that's good, then I don't know. However, it will return to perfect entropy in about 10 to the power of 100 years.

And what has evil got to do with the physical universe?

some people just cannot tolerate anything.... it is their problem, not anyone's else..

actually one should learn to tolerate...and one who calls herself a LADY could be at least softer somehow.. this 'Lady' sounds rather like a warrior amazon, who is calling for war.. To Block!! To Boycott! Not to tolerate!! "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"!...

hhhmmm...I don't think the Prophet used to like warrior amazons..

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"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small compared to what lies within us."

Oliver Wendell Holmes

Experiments in High Energy Physics Labs, like CERN or SLAC or DESY.

And theories are either confirmed or discarded by experimentation. When it comes to the creation of the universe on what basis do you confirm your theory?

Theories are made to be changed, QatariLady. That is one of the most fundamental principles of science!

Isn't it all just theories that keep changing? How can anyone know for sure what really happened?

You should try to understand what it was, QatariLady. It's not enough to know that there was something called Big Bang.

Nothing is more relaxing than flying like an Eagle in Heaven !!

useless thread. QL becomin very boring like this. 50% religion 49% bla bla bla and 1 % good posts! i need we should all work together to keep this site interesting.

You lost me there sorry.. I know there was something called the Big Bang.. Is it old-fashioned now? Excuse my ignorance I'm not a physicist :)

threatening people that you will tattle to QTEL.

I am in the US right now where I have guaranteed free speech so your threats don't mean anything to me :-)

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

you're one of the reasons people argues back, with your copy/paste posts. Ever heard of the term "Critical thinking"? Well, unlike you people can't stand all that copy/pasta.Some comment sarcastically and other argues their perspective of those issues. You see you can't expect people to share your same perspective on things...

And there was also music, QatariLady. It's part of the String Theory (model).

Nothing to worry about, QatariLady. It was the state of the universe before the four currently ruling fundamental forces separated from each other (discrimination) and allowed particles to become existent through spontaneous materialization and immediate annihilation back into the equivalent energy amount until a few escaped from their anti-particles and were not reversed back into energy. (The universe is totally made up from these 'lucky' bastards). - Says my model.

Freedom of speech is express your opinion, criticize bad, but here people are agueing for just the sake of arguing not really proving their point.

MOD ARE YOU THERE PLEASE STOP THIS

Thank You

God Bless You

Shouldn't you be better off defending healthy, polite debates?

What is supersymmetry?

tattle to QTEL when someone does something that offends you? How on earth have you managed getting along in a diverse world where some people DON'T respect our Prophet (saw) and have the freedom of speech to say so???

Really I just find it pitiful that some Muslims have to stamp their little feet and throw a tantrum when others disrespect our religion and our Prophet (saw). Al hamdulillah, he (our Prophet) was much more gracious and forgiving than you folks.

I don't like it when people insult him, either. But I know that demanding they shut up in threatening terms will do more harm than good. And my faith is not staked on controlling others' opinions or speech.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

You are absolutely right, QatariLady. The breaking of supersymmetry was the beginning of all evil. (This is science of 2009, not religion, by the way)

Say that to Q-Tel..

The prophet has already died. How can someone insult a dead person?

"Remember, Qatar Living is for people of all ages, nationalities, cultures and religions so please bear in mind the following rules:http://www.qatarliving.com/guidelines

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I do show respect to ppl but when someone insults the Prophet I don't and won't tolerate it.. This thread is meant to help ppl realise how serious this issue is.. It could get QL blocked!

Your membership entitles you to member privileges -- not OWNERSHIP. I strongly urge you to think about how you address people if you want them to show respect for you and your beliefs.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Drac said:

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hmmm..QatariLady or QuoteLady!?

[quote:] "Now this something was not something as you might think, it was a potential."

The potentials of the elements of the universe aren't absolute, that's why the universe is in good harmony not contradicting except if to keep it balanced like when water's potential puts off fire's potential..So it's GUIDED potential, right?

In the Quran Allah says about Himself: Allah is the One who gave everything its creation, then gave it guidance (what you call potential).

Since what you say is aligned with the Quran I have to consider you a genius!

I have a membership so it IS my home..

my post got deleted...and it wasn't even derogatory????

I once turned a bank loan into vodka.

Your move jesus......

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

MagicD - :) I hadn seen your comment on Hinduism earlier...

It is more than Holy Cow...lol

PM - Finally gal.... :) Your post on this one was highly awaited ..... :)

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

MAgicDragon - Buddy.. if you are seeking logical answers for questions like beginning of this universe n existance and purpose of human life... You are more religious than most of us here.. who are jus following the guidelines given by the people who did this in past.. we follow them as rituals and have forgotten the essence...

Seekers are truely spiritual....

Others are jus living to die one day.... :)

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Respect is earned and when not given to others, isn't likely to be returned. Making demands of others in any place other than your own home, comes across as rude and pushy.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

I have a model, QatariLady, full of problems and inconsistencies, but pretty close to the correct explanation. I can live with that. It is getting better all the time, and it uses mathematics as language. Translated it says that something smaller than anything contained everything which made it unstable so that this something had to start. Now this something was not something as you might think, it was a potential, or virtual something of indefinitely small size, indefinitely high density and pressure, and temperature, which in turn is rapid movement, able to produce everything that the universe ever holds. And that fact made it so unstable that it had to do something about it. It did not need any trigger, it was its own trigger.

I know you don't believe in religion. I'm not assuming. You've already said it.

Then how do you explain the physical existence of the universe? How did it create itself?

If you'd like to answer it I'll see it laterz. Have a nice evening.

"It is mintioned in the holy Quran ...

That Muhammed was sent for all people on this earth."

Well that cant be the case cos not everybody can read,write or speak arabic, and as any translated quran isnt classed as the truth, then only the arabic speaking countries can be muslim.

So make up yer mind.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

It's all about attitudes and emotions not threats or hitting

I understand how you feel..bcoz he is also my beloved PROPHET...any insult on him..it pains me...but what to do..there are people who doesnt understand his importance to us...MUSLIMS...eventhough how much you explain to them..there hearts are closed...blind to any logic..

So..stay CALM...dont go down to their level...the more you react the more they will tease you and make you mad...May ALLAH bless you....!

Qlady, truthful vistr/everybody discussin beatins..i thought this post ws bout something else..where'd all the kinky stuff come in?..beating with light objects..hmmm..kiddin,have a good day, all..

[quote:] " It is always a pleasure to fight with you."

Fine with me just stick to this thread rule pls :)

hmmmm...no probs, have more than one cow around..one less wudnt make a diff..

With all due respect Qatarilady, if a woman is going to be that mischievous, I don't see how gently striking her with a toothbrush-shaped object is going to make her change her mind.

However without an ability to speak Arabic I have to take your word for it.

I am however grinning slightly at the thought of a toothbrush-shaped object being used as a threat...;-)

I'll eat it, j3375!

Qlady, i find it difficult to believe that Indian Muslims dont have an authentic understanding of Islam..I cant/dont want 2 really debate on this as i'm not a follower..anyways keep the peace..

m dragonnnnnn,dont dare mock my Cow..

Like I said the translation isn't accurate as the word 'beating" is violent. In some cases where a woman could be stubborn and all attempts to get her back to reason fail the husband can use a light object (like miswak) to hit her lightly to get her attention.. This is how scholars describe it. It should never be in any way physically hurtful or insulting.

QatariLady, please consider for future disputes: I do not believe in any supernatural being. Religions for me are philosophies. I try to understand the universe as a physicist, and any belief is unacceptable as a scientific explanation. It is always a pleasure to fight with you.

Excellent truth/Qatar

:-)

1st positive conclusion out of this topic

:-)

So can you honestly enlighten us why this cleric would then be sitting there describing ways of doing it? Common sense tells us that it is wrong, furthermore religion backs that feeling up. So how can he be saying it?

And YouTube is not a conspiracy against anyone .... ;-)

agreed, Funiculus

Agree with you.. The Prophet himself told men: the best men of you wouldn't hit women.

QatariLady

This CAN not and MUST not be a discussion.

As a MAN you DO NOT touch/beat/slap/toothbrush your wife, EVER.

If a female beats a man out of anger, same shit applies. You just DO NOT.

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In bed, you can spank though... *slap*

[quote:] "being arab doesnt make anybody more/less capable of understanding a religion,me thinks?.."

Provided they study the Quran properly from authentic sources.

Khalid - who is ''WE'' . those who believes in the book. how about others?? leave them alone bro. Please.

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- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -

You had Jesus but now what? Not good enough?

Qlady, everybody understands ur objections reg insulting the Prophet Mohammed..however i dont think making statements that an Indian/non arab who has no arabic understanding of the quran/arabic etcc....bcos if you just look at numbers of followers of ur faith worldwide,the arabs would be in a minority..being arab doesnt make anybody more/less capable of understanding a religion,me thinks?..

Another thing is Muslims usually, when speaking bout how christians worship christ is wrong(i too believe the church made him into a god..he never claimed that himself),isnt what muslims say can/cannot be said or discussed about the prophet Mohammed,also doing the same,logically speaking?..

I think its best that Religious posts are avoided as there's not any tolerance for diverse points of view as is shown by this post u have put up. (i know sometimes it degenerates into garbage instead of a healthy debate)..

politely? good luck!

I watched the videos and the translations says "beating"

Is spanking a child considered beating? No because the word "beating" if aggressive and fierce.

Ancient scholars described how a man would "hit" his wife as a final resort with something as light as a "miswak".. something like a toothbrush..

Because we believe in Quran we have to follow the message of Islam

Here are two quotes

And We have not sent thee (O Muhammad) save as a bringer of good tidings and a warner unto all mankind; but most of mankind know not. 34:28

Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is best aware of those who go aright (16:124)

I know... it is an endless discussion.

Personally I am heavily against images of Mohammed in Western newspapers. Make fun of your own Gods, if you feel the need to do so.

I would actually prefer, in my country, God to be banned completely from the public and make religion a private matter. Societies completely 'secular' and religiously neutral. No more religious expression like crosses, no more religious education on schools, no more Ichtus fish on cars, no more newspapers that contain religious articles/cartoons. Only in dedicated magazines, at home and dedicated locations.

Winners always look at the bigger picture in life.

Loosers scrutinize small details.

Islam preaches non - violence. In the matter concerning to Man and wife light beating on the shoulder or hand when they are not obedient (to their husbands); and they do not guard in his absence what Allah would have them guard (their honor, their property, etc.)and having illegitimate relations with other man.

How long have you been away from Holland? You might be surprised how things have changed in the old home town. Suggest making pork holy (or whatever it was you meant) and you might find yourself behind bars for inciting hatred.

You might not care Magic Dragon, but you should be mindful of it anyway.

...Yes I feel thats the case :)

MD - All the best!lol :) Certain issues are solved without mentioning them. Time and Silence cure all malice. I'am sure people understand more when they introspect as compared to when they listen/read.

Life is Beautiful...Indeed!

That could be, Tiger. But some people don't care what the Quran says. For some people it's just another book.

LifeisBeautiful ignorance is the solution? Quote [People should also ... stop questioning others belief's.]

Sorry to disagree with that...asking, learning is the best way to understand other way of life, belief... and to accept and respect them (even if you disagree with the their belief).

Knowledge is the key to make a more peaceful word.

Listen, I feel your rage on this one, and I found the cartoon thing to be totally out of proportion, but I have some close friends who are Muslims and talking to them about the issue really illuminated me on just how hurtful it is to them, even if I can't feel the pain personally.

We might not find it to be such an offense but my point is that unless the issue clearly adds something to a debate, it is not worth upsetting many people for nothing. This is a globalised world and within minutes the entire planet can read and see what is written. We no longer write to domestic audiences.

Regarding the cartoons of Israel, everyone plainly knows that the whole censorship issue is not a two-way street. Criticism of Islam is punishable by death, death threats and fatwas, but incitement to hate the West, Jews, their proxies and institutions is considered all par for the course.

Remember, we were the wicked, racist, imperialist colonisers? Kipling's "white man's burden" is now "the white man's guilty conscience". That's just the way of the world and is a wider issue than this thread. In fact, to be 'Western' means to assume the guilt for many crimes you didn't commit, and to speak arrogantly as though you have only one voice. That's pretty much what it feels like. Never mind the truth. It's a wide phenomenon and won't be solved in one single QL thread debate.

I'm just trying to address the topic of the thread and to see things from other people's perspectives, that's all. There are still human beings behind all these QL posts and protest demonstrations, and when you are face to face with them it is difficult not to have a bit of empathy with how they are feeling.

I am trying to be truthful but can't claim to be always correct :-)

That Muhammed was sent for all people on this earth.

Magic Dragon,

Funny you should say that.

I was actually thinking about declaring the PORK holy in the Netherlands.

This will serve multiple purposes.

I think there is one small tribe in Asia that considers swines holy. (thought it was somewhere in China)

it is a misconception and taken the wrong way ,any righteous man would NOT beat his wife

Added to that.

Just a general remark -->

Any MAN that BEATS or 'slaps' or 'rapes' his wife lowers himself to a level of extreme weakness, incompetence and should consider himself less than an animal.

Beat your wife?

Come, beat me... see how much of an hero you really are.

that is the point , you do not "beat " your wife , it is misleading ....Yes

that is why i said it didn't get explained enough/ right

The Hindus have the holy cow, the Muslims have Mohammed, we, in the west, have nothing. Poor us. How degrading for us. Snif.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

Umm

"It didn't get explained enough"

NO WRONG.

The subject 'beating females' SHOULD NOT be explained AT ALL. It should be forbidden and declared a crime.

God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and a boxing bag.

"There is no need to upset 20% of the world's population over a stupid little drawing"

There is no need to get upset over a stupid cartoon. We ridicule Jesus, God, ourselves and other elements of our societies.

And here is what pisses me of about half ass remarks that clearly indicate hypocrite behaviorism from the Islamic world

have you ever seen arabic cartoons that relate to Israel?

here you go...

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm

Now, you tell me. Have you seen Europeans burn flags and attack embassies over this? NO.

Why? Because we are apparently a bit more mature and can handle criticism even if the subject is extremely sensitive.

By the way, it is the same stupid attitude when someone tries to "prove a religious issue with science." Plain stupid.

F U lol that you have to bring that up!

Yes ,misleading !

It didn't get explained enough ( in the right manner) and also I was told there was a problem with the translation .....

Whereas, the danger here is some people could say the teaching of Darwinism and Evolutionary science is an "Insult" also..

And that is a battle that is worth fighting, no matter how grave the level of offense.

You say it, mmyke. As I mentioned before:" Noone can insult a religion or God or a prophet". None of these listen, none of these are concerned. And those who "defend", are defending what? Maybe only their own selfishness?

Islam preaches to feel peace of mind and contentment in spite of all the aggression, invasion, occupation and exploitation of their land. oil and wealth inspite of the injustice, bias, discrimiation and defamation.

LASTLY, If the minds are captive to prejudice, preconception or pre judgement, we will never see the beauty or truth of anything.

Our Holy Beloved Prophet showed us in his lifetime Whenever he was criticised by people, he did not get upset or resort to uncalled measures.

Always remember this:

" No stones are thrown on a fruitless tree"

" If people start criticising, hurting, shouting, do not bother about them. In any game the spectators make a lot of noice, but winners play on fair, win and make them silent."

why "God" or any "prophet' has to be protected from anyone or anyone's negative comments?

Surely, if any god or prophet is so inherently paramount then they, their reputations, and place in society can take care of themselves.

Any person's negativity towards them would simply whither away,,,,

so whats this all this "protection" really about??

No magicdragon, I take your points. I gather you are 'atheistically' minded which is entirely your business, and I can see where you are coming from in your post. However, I suppose the point is that on difficult and sensitive issues it is necessary to 'choose our battles'. The cartoon for example was gratuitous and what's more, served no purpose. In other words, not a battle worth fighting.

I am trying to be mindful of other people's concerns here as they have mentioned here, but at the same time, also trying to understand the hidden implications of what is being requested in this thread - in other words, if they are requesting one or two basic red lines, or many hundreds of them protruding into all sorts of areas. The objection to Rushdie above is rather suggestive of the latter, I'm afraid.

truthfulvisitor, what are you trying to tell me? Are you trying to tell me that I support the "Title" of this thread? You tell me to learn "looking the other way"? I beg to differ (using your words). I am neither looking the other way, nor do I accept censorship on anything. I meant to say that "Insulting the Prophet" is irrelevant for many people, because Muhammed is just another person for them.

...yes,the way she said 'Indian' was very very very hurtful and impolite. I'am feeling like jumping at her now ;)lol...But I know she didn't MEAN it. She respects Indians from the bottom of her heart and will never speak ill of Indians even in her dreams...

Life is Beautiful...Indeed!

I beg to differ slightly. I don't think Qatarlady meant that the Prophet is everyone's prophet. Initially my reaction was that it would be right to have some limits. Clearly the Danish cartoon incident caused a level of genuine hurt and upset that, while hard to fathom to the non-Muslim mind, was nonetheless very real. There is no need to upset 20% of the world's population over a stupid little drawing in a newspaper that makes no contribution to art, knowledge or humanity's progress whatsoever. It is not worth the hurt feelings and what's more, offers nothing to any ongoing debate about anything anyway.

However, on probing the issue a little more, it seems that 'insulting the Prophet' is taken as license to censor art and literature and what's more, for people who don't even know what they are talking about to become the judges of what will and will not be allowed to pass. Cultures and societies progress and enrich the human experience through these media and under no circumstances should they allowed to be limited. If you don't like that fact, then you need to learn the great skill of 'looking the other way'.

Here is another

I would like to have a topic about this, opened by a Muslim pleas.

Umm, misleading yes or no?

I agree with Winn, I read Moor's last Sigh, he does have a tendancy to go all over the place.

"Ali Baba and 40 thieves" are now "Ali Baba and 30 thieves" ; 10 were laid off.

Umm,

See the link.

Misleading, yes or no?

Well, a book doesnt necessarily be a pleasure to a read jus coz its won accolades. It varies from person to person. 'Mediocre' was an 'opinion' not a 'judgement'.

Quite like those paintings that look like somebody's gone cuckoo over a canvas but are hailed to be great works of modern art and sold for huge amounts.

there is a lot of misleading information on Islam out there,

that is why it is better to stick to the major scholars in Islam and take from them !

Otherwise it get's very confusing , somebody says this and somebody else says that ....

very misleading

QatariLady - If you say critisizing directly or indirectly is bad...

Honestly.. and politely... I really didn like the sound of .. when you say "A INDIAN doesn know true Arabic and criticizes Quran".. there are many Indians n Pakis who follow Islam.... and Arabic is not the Native Language...

If you didn intent to.. but it didn sound good.... really... :(

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

"Coming from me"...oh dear, so much you know about me! Anyways, its true that I have a tendency to get rich. Call it attitude/arrogance/whatever.

My impression on reading his books is that they are overrated, which is nothing new. About the connections, do you mean he just happened to use similiar caricatures?

Frankly, I couldnt care less whether he meant to insult or not, but I would anyday say the books were quite a disappointment, given the hype.

Where the hell is the 'foul language'? You may not have enjoyed Midnight's Children but the critics would disagree. To win the Booker of Bookers, in other words the best novel that ever won any Booker prize, would certainly surely place him beyond 'mediocre' by anyone's estimation.

QatariLady assumes that "the Prophet" is a prophet for everybody. That's the first wrong assumption. For some people Muhammed is just another founder of another religion. So, at best, he is "a" prophet. And some even don't think that things like "prophets" really exist. When some people insult Muhammed (or Jesus, or Buddha, or whoever) they do not insult "the Prophet", as QatariLady would understand it. They insult just another person, as they do it everyday.

I will never read something like that thank you.. I have better things to do :)

...but do you mind listening to Dr.Zakir's talks for hours? He is an Indian too.

Life is Beautiful...Indeed!

Like I said I never read his book but heard him criticise the Quran saying it has contradictions. Since he doesn't understand Arabic he should've kept his mouth shut.

Well then Qatarilady, until such times as you have read it, perhaps you should keep your uninformed opinions to yourself.

...as I said earlier...you don't need Youtube to prove the greatness of Islam. It is these methods which earn maximum criticism and comments.

Life is Beautiful...Indeed!

truthful:Read the same and midnite's children too, but did not find em impressive. Again, I was stating my opinion. I am quite aware that there are people who find him very interesting.

IMHO, he has a tendency to go in all directions from the thread, get into descriptions uncalled for and use foul language just for the sake of it. Irreverence or unconventionality is perfectly fine , but with an iota of rationale.

I wouldn't scream for his blood but ppl must be told not to take his work seriously. I never read his book but it's only logical that an Indian person who obviously doesn't understand Arabic shouldn't have the guts to criticise th Quran..

quote: "Again, if someone takes a paperback novel as gospel truth without verifying it, he is beyond help anyway".

Pretty rich coming from you, I would say.

quote: "Again, if someone takes a paperback novel as gospel truth without verifying it, he is beyond help anyway".

Pretty rich coming from you, I would say.

understanding about Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon HIM)

regarding his marraige with Aisha (RA)

Peace

See, I don't in principle have a problem with respecting one or two 'red lines', such as Qatarilady's original point. Not insulting the Prophet, a la Danish cartoon style, I can accept that.

But I start fuming when I see unqualified people censoring art and literature on the basis of hearsay. I find it unbearable. Particularly when the people concerned haven't EVEN READ the things they are saying are 'silly writings that are taken as fact'.

The book you condemn is actually about an Anglo-Indian marketing manager named Gibreel who falls out of an airplane like 'seeds out of a pod' and washes up on an English beach in some dazzling unspecified future era. It is a work of fantasy, magical realism and history, at the same time. It is so complex that you would simply need to read it to experience it. Some of Rushdie's art is so dazzling that Shakespeare is the only comparable thing I can think of. The reference to Islam is vague, and limited to a couple of passages where the main character drifts off in a dream like sequence.

Not that you would probably care, though.

He did not say anything that could have been taken as fact. He just used foul language and you guys gave him the publicity he was lookin for.

Again, if someone takes a paperback novel as gospel truth without verifying it, he is beyond help anyway. Your defending is not gonna help much anyway. tell me, how much did the Islamic world's reaction to his tirade elevate the general impression on tolerance and status of dialogue in Islam?

Also, there are a lot of moderate options between 'ignoring' and 'screaming for blood'

winn and Funiculus..

I don't have a problem with questions and criticism but not rude insults.

MissX..

It's a naming word for a PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER. When it's normal for ppl to marry at this age WITHOUT SEX it's not pedophilia.

Salman Rushdie 'a mediocre nutcrack writer'?

Apparently you've never read any of his books then. The Satanic Verses is an awesome piece of literature written by one of the greatest living novelists. In fact I can't think of a writer more 'on fire' and more exciting than him.

I'm with ashwindoke there is far too much of this, every week another angle for us to bash away at different faiths.

Khallas, enough, genug, methen, stop.

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A wise young crackpot knows no fear - Ian Dury.

First off yer said...

"I guess by now everyone should realise that insulting the Prophet or Allah directly or indirectly is just not tolerated. This is a rule of thumb that you're kindly requested to abide by.."

OK, so, why is it only your religion no-one can talk about ?

Second, you can request all yer like, yer cannot order people.

And third, if insulting god indirectly or directly is an insult, that means that you think Atheists are indirectly insulting god cos they dont believe in him...

The only way to stop this is by having the MODS automatically delete EVERY religious topic.

Then everybody is on a level playing field,cos if people dont accept that others have different beliefs then nothing and no-one will be above critisim...

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

MIss X -

Getting married at early age was happening in every civilization at tht period....

Nothing to make a news about....

And if it hurts emotions n feelings of someone..

You know you should be more careful with our words..

they are more powerful than we think they are...

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

The fatwas did give him publicity but I disagree that we should've ignored him. His silly writings then would be taken as facts.

Provocative to proof a point, or hateful. These 2 are worlds apart.

I understand MissX, she just thinks along other lines. And if you read carefully, she is asking more questions than she makes statements, yet knows how to push buttons. Something which is not appreciated by the majority.

Qatarilady: Ever heard teh saying,

"Dogs bark; but the caravan goes on"? That, IMHO, is how u deal with insult on faith.

On a further note, there is quite a world of difference between debating/criticising and insulting. Do you have a problem with critics also? If yes, then you need to look within and find out why before you attack the critics.

You're doing it too. The word I used is a naming word. You're adding your own negative connotations to it. We use that word for any adult who has sex with people under the age of 16. If you think having sex with people under the age of 16 is bad, then that's on you, and that's why you think that is an insult. It's a fact. He did do it, and that is the word we use to describe a person who does that.

WINN - Nice one buddy..

m sick n tired of this religious bashing... :(

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Just Ignore these kind of discussions....

ALLAH HU AKBAR - GOD IS GREAT

Insulting "manner"?- You mean teh same words spoken with a different intonation or expression wouldnt be taken as an insult? Strange!

Reacting to someone's insult on ur faith is to dignify the insult by your attention. Ignore it and it falls away. For eg, had the muslim world just laughed at Rushdie's face and told him to scram, he wouldnt have been this much of a celebrity today. All those fatwas did was to make a hero out of a very mediocre nutcrack writer. He got much more attention and coverage than his work deserved.

if you had ignored him, whaever insults he wrote would have faded into obscurity.

I reacted to both the word AND the manner.. What I know about pedophilia is that it's a psychological disorder that causes a person to enjoy having sex with children.

The Prophet didn't have this disorder as Aisha the 9 year-old was the ONLY young girl he married at the age of 40.. All his other wives were old and some of them were VERY old around 60 years of age that he only married to provide THEM with social status or to built strong ties with other tribes and not for sex.. That doen't describe a pedophil.

...and you r are being overly hateful. I would mind if people like you get banned or even jailed. Criticism has to have a limit. It should not border on insults like your post above.

Life is Beautiful...Indeed!

Qlady - You are right, would have agreed more if you had stated it on behalf of all the religions and their beliefs, instead of just the prophet.

No one is spared.

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- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -

has set guideliness just follow them SIMPLE.

now the question is how can drunk read guidelines

Would you have reacted differently if I had said "oh it's interesting that they allowed pedophilia back in that era, and didn't realise Muhammed was one"?

You reacted to the word. Admit it.

I have come across many who are less matured than others. I even know a 12 year old who is a regular on QL. Lack of Maturity with strong religeous sentiments don't mix.

Life is Beautiful...Indeed!

An insult is considered an insult if said in an insulting manner..

discussed in POLITICS/CULTURE/RELIGION

I would've turned the other cheek had it been about me, the Qatari ppl or even Muslims.

People need to be more mature and show their understanding rather getting flown under the influence of emotions and type whatever their personal experience, losing temper and control

[quote:] "Probably you should suggest the believers to stop posting religeous matters which are subject to scrutiny."

Among mature ppl that shouldn't be a problem because usually they will not behave childishly..

"But it WAS already done"

That get's followed by:

Turn the other cheek?

The problem is

Some are hypersensitive and can not stand a little harsh word of skepticism. And see words as an assault.

Some, get offended but ignore it. (the wise)

Some try to open the dialogue as they are not bothered by what is said as they are comfortable with their own convictions.

It is like having a beautiful GF.

If you are comfortable and secure with her loyalty and you trust her 100%, other males can flirt and do whatever they want, it does not bother you. You are at peace.

If you are insecure, jealous and worried about losing her.... you will bite, fight and try to keep other males away obsessively. You are preoccupied/obsessed with her, and live insecure.

Your OP sounds more like a warning than a suggestion to the non-believers.It's ok by me but some others will object. One suggestion I have is - Probably you should suggest the believers to stop posting religeous matters which are subject to scrutiny.For ex. - today someone posted a copy paste thing about Prophet's (PBUH) wife. Now a post like that has greater probability of being criticised and debated. Also,topics related to 'Flogging','Burqa' etc. keep popping up.You only have to check last one weeks topics to understand what I mean. QL in all fairness, is a place for information sharing,planning events,light hearted banter,etc. Members are from all age groups and might not always exercise superior judgement while posting. It's natural that some of them carried away by emotions etc.

The onus of decorum is on both the parties and specially the one which is getting hurt. Threats won't help much.

Life is Beautiful...Indeed!

Qatarilady: First of all, I do not believe Prophet needs you or anybody to defend him. He is beyond insult now.

Second I would like to quote Buddha: "A spoken word becomes an insult only when you take it as an insult. These (insults) are arrows that were shot at my heart but have landed near my feet. I refuse to bend over, pick them and stab myself in the heart with them"

Enough said, I guess.

You just seem very surprised at some of the things said, in which is generally a very tame forum. Were they short holidays by any chance?

I 2nd your thought Qatarilady this will simply not be tolerated, period.

ALLAH HU AKBAR - GOD IS GREAT

Perhaps this should be in the Religion section of QL.

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[quote:] "Do not do to others what you do not wish to be done to you?"

But it WAS already done.

Insulting isn't criticism but a desperate resort if one didn't have enough logic to use..

Miss X wants to go wid u

Qatari Lady, the Tile of your thread itself sounds so rude, like a threat almost. You think people are going to change after this? You must be dreaming.

Having said that I do agree that some people have a little less tolerance for the highly religious but I guess its a mixed bag u have to let it go and stop getting worked up by other's opinions.

"Ali Baba and 40 thieves" are now "Ali Baba and 30 thieves" ; 10 were laid off.

Yes I have.. Why?

to reach to a common destination...to attain

Peace, Love, Unity and Brotherhood.......common and general message taught by all religions.....

Why all are fighting in the name of religion?

I guess when each others faith is been challenged and people try to defend their religion and satan enters to create a War like situations.

Religion shall not be a criteria to judge a person.

I always suggest that everybody should learn and educated themselves about their own religion, do analyse and seek the true path. Instead pulling each others legs and cursing othere traditions and cultures.

Peace

And honestly,

If you can not take criticism, which is bound to happen in a multicultural forum where anonymity functions as a safeguard, you may want to consider taking on 'knitting' or 'pottery' as a hobby.

"QatariLady said MagicDragon ...To every action there's a reaction.. Physical law"

Turn the other cheek maybe?

Do not do to others what you do not wish to be done to you?

QL, if you start a topic like this... refrain from such statements.

As now I have the impression that this is a very friendly way of trying to limit the 'freedom of speech' on this forum.

QatariLady. Have you ever been out of a Muslim country for any period of time?

Qatarilady, Newton's (mechanical) view of the forces is working on the limited scale of us humans with a sight of some kilometers and hands reaching about 2 meters, and speeds about 100 km/h that we can comprehend. Anything beyond the "human" scope is governed by laws of qantomechanics and probability. In other words: if an engineer builds a bridge he cannot guarantee 100 % that the structure will stand. He will say, it does, but there is a probability that it doesn't. It happens not often in our limited time scale, but it does happen. And nobody can predict the behaviour of one electron, only the behaviour of a large number with a certain probability. And then there is the Uncertainty Relation of Werner Heisenberg. It will confuse you even more. Enjoy your day.

Well then QLers are requested not to insult those who love Jesus and Mohammed by saying rude things about them..

QatariLady, very well named! OLers!

This will be a gentle reminder for ALL!

People should refrain from insulting not only the Prophet but the religion as well. Not only Islam but all other religion and prophets. People should also stop telling others what to do and stop questioning others belief's. QL would be a much better place ;)

Life is Beautiful...Indeed!

Thanx for your understanding..

:)

You cannot insult a religion! You can only insult people. You cannot insult Jesus or Mohammed. They are both dead. You can only insult people.

[quote:]"Since Einstein and Planck this only applies to limited scales but not to the very large and the very small (Quantum Mechanics)."

I'm clueless there..not my domain..

Politeness in all areas of life is to be encouraged.

Whilst free speech is of the essence, many people forget the position the Prophet holds in the hearts and minds of Muslims. Respect and tolerance , especially when discussing religion should be the order of the day.

everywhere, anywhere....

Ooops...couldn't help to add it. :-)

Pretty old fashioned (Newton). Since Einstein and Planck this only applies to limited scales but not to the very large and the very small (Quantum Mechanics).

To every action there's a reaction.. Physical law..

Insulting QL members is not tolerated, either!

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Have Courage To Live.

Anyone Can Die.

Thank God for MOD!

And i'm sure this one will also turn to another religion bashing thread !

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tEaCh Me RuLeS, i'Ll TeAcH hOw To BrEaK iT ..

rMs..!!