Freedom: Bikini or headscarf

Why would one even compare bikinis with abayas? I find that comparison rather ridiculous.

Nobody runs around on the streets with a bikini. A bikini is worn at the beach , at the pool and for sun tanning.

Now, if you want to compare conservative western clothing to an abaya, ok,...

genesis,first off mate,i said "good number of them" as opposed to "all of them",obviously your Indian manager friend isn't part of that good number...

And it's not a presumption,it's a fact based on what i've seen...we've visited people known to our family here when we & they have been on holiday back home in India & that's the first time i've EVER seen that woman in anything other than an abaya,she was dressed,as i mentioned,conservatively enough,like the other women of the house in a salwar kameez & long scarf wrapped loosely around her head BUT no abaya,wheras all those years we've known that family in Doha,i've never seen her in ANYTHING but an abaya...In another instance,one of these abaya wearing woman's brother is a good friend of mine,close enough to tell me that the real reason she wore it was in the hope she could marry a Qatari guy(which she did end up doing eventually)...

Now unless you're telling me you know Indians(muslim or otherwise) better than i,as an Indian do,i believe it's my word over yours mate!...fair enough?...

Chasitity belts should come back inti fashion and will stop all these lose women exposing their private parts for a bit of rumble fun

with all due respect, how did you presumed that they wear that to be favored?!!

I know a sales manager of Indian origin in one of the leading international energy companies in Qatar who wears abaya. she doesn't need to kiss any one's ***

@ Eco-savvy,i agree,they are hypocrites...but that just means LOTS of them are hypocrites...

As for muslim girls in India,it's actually the other way around,a good number of them that live here or elsewhere in the gulf try & act very conservative by wearing the abaya when they go out & many even cover their faces,thinking it will garner favour amongst the locals(basically kissing a#*),these same women dress like most other muslim women when they're back home in India,wearing a salwar-kameez with the duppatta(long scarf) loosely wrapped around their head,so yes i agree with you,they're being as hypocritical as these gulf arab women...

It is every individual's choice to wear what ever they like...

the flight are hypocrites. This is also the case of many muslim girls in India, its worn so that you can get good proposal once you are married that abaya is out of the window.

in Europe when its freezing, even if you wear long coat over it still your feet are not warm.

Apologies for not being specific,i was referring only to Gulf Arab women,definitely not the community as a whole...

Dotcom,you seem to have misunderstood,neither did i say nor mean ALL muslim women,as for %s,i'm not interested,but if you are i'm sure you could find out!...

Furthermore,how does "what % of them" make it any different???...as in,if it's 1% then it's ok but if 10% it's not???...pray enlighten me...

The abaya is indeed for modesty. However as you say, some women wear it , but still try and show off their bumpy bits :O)

However, please realise that there are over a billion muslims and the majority are not like the ones you mention - They wear the Abaya as it should be worn...

and how many of them actually went out for their summer vacs to london?

will u plz, elaborate further in terms of percentage, as u seem to be one of the best observer, who's keen interest for keeping an eye on muslim's traditions and cultures.

my two cents...if women actually wear the abaya to be modest,would someone explain to me why there are so many young( & sometimes not so young!) Qatari ladies walking around in abayas that look like they've been melted down & poured into it???...seriously,in fact i probably wouldn't even look @ them if they were in a regular top & jeans but these abayas are obviously tailor made to show off every one of their ample curves,kind of defeats the purpose me thinks!...

As for when they're out of their home countries,puhleeze let's not even go there,take a trip to London in the next couple of weeks & you'll see plenty of "modest arab culture" on "display" there!!!...

These women are like caged birds,that are let out for two months of the summer in London & other European capitals,whoa! & many of them are super hot i have to admit & they know it & show it off as much as possible,knowing full well that it's back to black once they get back home,wherever in the GCC that is,in fact i've often seen white women( & men of course!) walking down the street stop & look @ them because they're SO over (or under depending on how you 'look' at it!) dressed in their designer micro minis & face full of pancake just to go shopping or for a cup of coffee,so if all of this doesn't point to the fact that they wear it 'cos their society dictates it & not because they want to,then i don't know what does...

i wear abaya and even cover my face and i m not at all forced, i do it for the sake of pleasing Allah,

check out the following site

http://www.igotitcovered.org/

B'cos it gives us the greatest possible freedom, within limits, to live our lives. Whether you wear an abaya, or a bikini, the reason is the same. You wear what you do b'cos it gives you a quality of life you willing to accept. It may not be adequate nor comfortable, but you are willing to accept it.

but the law for "other" women to dress modesty (as per their standard of course). Good morning!

flor: I'm not sure which laws you are referring to. I am unaware of a hijab law in here Qatar...

but morals also tells us to follow the government that govern us. And the government here is under a certain culture which they would like to preserved and also dictated by their convictions (being Muslims). So if we want to stay out of trouble, we follow the LAW! At least, it a little bit relax here. What with all the beautiful ladies in their beautiful (and sometimes revealing) clothes, we should be happy!

Khanan: that's what I said. Did you read my post directly before yours?

Women who show too much are unattractive. Nothing left to 'discover.'

Azam,

your comment "They essential wear it to protect themselves from staring men"

confirms once again my initial comment(Mon,14/06/2010/-a-t-/7:03am):

Freedom is having a society civilized enough so its male population can coexist with the females in bikini without eating them with their eyes, making them feel like preys feel in the animal kingdom, uneasy and at risk.

Due to human nature (natural animal attraction of opposite genders), this mutual respect of coexistence requires adequate Education of mixed genders since young ages, all the way through the individual’s life. Societies where this mix-gender education is non existent or limited, produces male reactions the way (for example) we see here in Qatar and in most of similar societies, leaving the covering-up, the only option for the female population.

(...)

We're all forced by society to wear the clothes Khawanga, be it abaya or a t-shirt.

Khawaga!

The assumptions that all women who wear hijab/niqab are forced is totally wrong.

flor: you are correct, IMHO. Local ladies are not forced to wear the abayya any more than I am forced to wear a shirt when I leave the house. Well, that's not entirely true, I would probably be arrested for blinding people with my shocking white tummy...

Then why take it off when they go to Europe & the States Azzam?

Dot.Com,

It appears that you are unable to distinguish a criminal from other men.

In those societies you mention (and you love to hate so much), average and normal men who mingle with women don’t act like rapists (fortunately those are sick deviations from the norm) and that is why women are not generally pressured to wrap them selves in black cloths or stay locked up away from society!

got it now?

(probably not)

and yet they keep on forcing they belief that they were! It was morals that dictates them to wear such on a specific areas. So don't argue that when they are on certain gatherings, they remove it, precisely because that what THEIR morals dictates them!

If I go and see a government official in his/her official office, for an official visit, I won't go there in a pajama or in rugged clothes because my belief is I need to be in a formal wear. It's the same thing, we are "dictated" by our morals and not by any person!

WK: for the vast majority, the hijab comes off in Europe, Canada and the US. A small minority keep the hijab on. Islam asks for people (men AND women) to dress modestly but the Quran does not specifically spell out what to wear. Each society decides for itself. The point is not to draw too much unwanted attention to yourself. So in the Gulf countries, the abayya and hijab (and niqab even) help ladies blend in. However, the attire that allows for a certain amount of anonymity here would cause all sorts of curiosity and attention in the US.

So skinny jeans it is from now on for all women who wanna stay safe ;-)

I for one have seen a lotta women take off their abaya as soon as they get on the plane to Europe... they go into the toilet wearing it and come out a different person... ;-).... FREEDOM!!!

YVr is right, the women safest from rape are women wearing tight jeans as they are the hardest things to get off.

Nice article :-)

from not getting raped,so encourage women in tight jeans around

They go on a lot of vacations to Europe, what happens there?

Does it stay on or they take it off?

Anyone who knows about it?

ES is right. I asked a lot of my female friends in Yemen about that and, to a person, everyone admitted that even wearing a niqab, hijab and abayya, they still got a lot of... unwanted attention from men.

What would be the point in my sharing what they think Azam, you wouldn't believe me anyhow and anyway what they think is obvious in that as soon as they're out sight of men it comes off. If they loved it so much they'd keep it on all the time.

Do people having freedom enough in civilized society, that its male population are coexist with female in bikini, are not get raped?

Do people wearing the hijab not get raped around the world?

lol Khawaga, I mean you know, you know ;)

I saw both cases in India, women covering their face when I visited my villages and in my college, girls wearing minis to be cool and try to fit in though they were clearly uncomfortable wearing it. Both cases amused me.

WK: you think men can keep it in their pants? Is this your first day as a man??

whyteknight,

you know very well that in certain societies, men are unprepared (lack of education) to face a woman in bikini or in any other cloths that reveal more than a few inches of skin.

in some societies, their comfortable zone is limited to a 12cm2 mesh.

It's the fact that they BELIEVE it's protection (even though it's not) but even more so it's because they will be judged and gossiped about and consider "immodest" and a slut if they don't.

Same reason women in the West dress in mini skirts and bikini's, cause if they don't they're prudes or weird or what have you.

Why do women need so much protection, can't we keep it in our pants the moment we see a bit of female skin?

I can't understand the reasoning.

Azam if you don't give them any other option then it is forced.

Olive,

To back up your valid point of view: why Muslim women dress differently (sexy with no head cover) when in women-only gathering? God is still there to watch them, isn't it?

This proves that their drive is to protect themselves against predators.

I know from personal experience how pathetically these guys react when they see an uncovered woman passing by.

Only some are forced???

Yea right.

Many of them do Azam. Unfortunately your a man so you don't get to hear them.

azam the thing is, why don't you give these women an option?

If they are doing it for the reasons you explained then they will continue to do it. Why the fear of giving them an option to dress the way they want?

I really love that I'm the only woman in this thread and men are lecturing me on what is and is not comfortable to women. I invite all you men to go out in the blazing sun in a tight black hijab and abaya and let me know how comfortable it is when you get back.

Quote:

Freedom is having a society civilized enough so its male population can coexist with the females in bikini without eating them with their eyes, making them feel like preys feel in the animal kingdom, uneasy and at risk.

have a look at this news, and i'm sure this man were not living in animal kingdom.

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/1108362

Olive

i might be agree with you, that wearing bikini or hijab totally depends on a culture and trading where one raised since childhood, but couldn't be agreed with those arrogant, who's only ready to fire on hijab lovers.

flor,

You want some prove that it’s not comfortable and they do it to protect them selves from the predators?

The proof is that they don’t wear it when in presence of ladies only (like the female side of wedding parties).

All said ;)

Olive,

Thank you.

So you've just proven what I said Azam, it has nothing to do with comfort, the women wear it because they feel culturally obligated to, not because they truly want to.

but you insist it's uncomfortable! I said, maybe to you, but not to them!

How would you know flor, you wear hijab a lot?

are not comfortable. To each her own! Maybe to you, it's uncomfortable, but to them, it is!

Actually it's us who look that feels uncomfortable. But for the person itself who wears such thing, they are VERY comfortable!

but what is morally right based on our personal conviction. And that's where the complication comes, since we have different perspective of what is morally right within our conviction, criticizing one's choice become a natural trait of people.

We're talking about dresses here, right?

Azam, what woman would really feel comfortable with a scarf wrapped round her head all day, especially in this heat?

If women could actually dress the way we wanted, we'd never get out of our sweat pants.

I really don't know where did that misconception about the "apple" thing with Adam and Eve. It was mentioned as the forbidden fruit, but never mentioned that it's apple! Good morning!

Okay back to topic! Sorry for a slight hijack!

Azam Nic isn't arrogantly assuming anything, he's described perfectly male behaviour here in Qatar. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I always find men discussing what women should and should not wear interesting. Why the big fuss over what women wear? And for those who assume bikini = freedom, hijab = slavery, not true. Women from the time their born to the time they die, regardless of their culture, are pressured to dress a certain way, by men, other women, society, whatever. Whether we're forced by society to wear mini skirts (cause it's the latest fashion) or abaya, very few women actually "choose" what they wear because it's what they feel comfortable in.

Azam,

...and that brings the discussion back to my initial comment(Mon,14/06/2010@7:03am):

Freedom is having a society civilized enough so its male population can coexist with the females in bikini without eating them with their eyes, making them feel like preys feel in the animal kingdom, uneasy and at risk.

Due to human nature (natural animal attraction of opposite genders), this mutual respect of coexistence requires adequate Education of mixed genders since young ages, all the way through the individual’s life. Societies where this mix-gender education is non existent or limited, produces male reactions the way (for example) we see here in Qatar and in most of similar societies, leaving the covering-up, the only option for the female population.

(...)

btw genesis,to start with mate,saris or sarees are not even the local attire in many parts of India,so that's like people saying they like "Indian" food or someone(Russell Peters!) asking "how do you say hello in Indian?"...& anyways there are hundreds of thousands of Indian women that wear sarees only on special occassions & not as part of their daily attire...that a good number of them wouldn't exactly be lining up to be recruited to Qatar is a different story...*wink*!!!

Agreed :O)

britexpat,not equating these aspects with just Islamic societies mate,apologies if i came across like that,i meant it only pertaining to this particular discussion...my point was that the women in question ought to be given freedom of choice once they come of age,some will choose to wear a headscarf & some won't & those that don't ought not to be treated any different from those that do,that in my opinion is, or rather would be, real freedom...

No Azam I don't. The original need for clothing was nothing to do with modesty. Check out the tribal people in the rainforsests of Brazil or Papapu New Guinea, they walk around naked most of the time and it doesn't seem to bother them.

Clothing was originally for one purpose and it evolved into something else...

if I remember correctly, Adam and Eve were naked..... right up to where they ate the apple.... none of us would have been any the wiser if they hadn't...;-P

I would agree that "Some" do not have a choice because of socity's demands or constraints. The same is true everywhere else. I would like to walk around with my todger hanging out, but I can't. Society and Plod will not allow it. I have worked and lived briefly in Pennsylvania. I am sure what you say also aplies to the Amish there... Again, their socity demands that they dress in a certain manner..

Please don;t just equate these aspects to Islamic Societies..

Correct clothing is not natural but was adpoted by humans depending on enviormental circumstances. i.e. it helped humans survive in northern europe after the migration from Africa and Asia.

Interesting :)

Would you say the same thing about indian women clothing ?

Many can also assume that indian women are forced to wear sarees.

Few months back, I recruited an engineer. In the interview, I clearly told her that I appreciate that she doesn't wear sari to work. After she joined, she sported the same attire she wore during the interview. And appealed that she must prsereve the same, I accepted that . Although I could have terminated her contract as she was still on probation

The bottom line, I think factors like tradition is dominating women dress codes. And this is not limited to Muslim women only

why don't we just compromise, wear a bikini with a head scarf on top, both sides will be happy..

Azam so funny, hijab is a natural protection!!! You are the Aussie guy talking about cats and meat again....

Well avid I would say yes to being naked but probably with certain restrictions such as designated areas or beaches. Same with the niqb, for security reasons it should not be worn in banks or public buildings.

Locally , I can say that most Qatari women wear headscarf and abbaya by their own free well.

it's not only for religious reasons but more to do with preserving our own traditions.

As for niqab (aka the face veil), I think many women were forced to wear it

People then should also be free to not wear anything at all. Is my interpretation correct?

The fact is that ultimately we all have the freedom to do as we wish. The question is whether we embrace that freedom, and the consequences that come with it.

its very good read. kudos to the writer and the mom who allowed her daughter to have "freedom"

People should be free to wear what they want, be it a bikini, headscarf or a potato sack.

However in some socities choice of clothes is forced upon people

again a tom and dick will walk on the ramp of QL.......lol

@ britexpat,because like it or not,it is a fact mate,a number of Muslim women if given a choice would not wear the headscarf or the face veil & when i say if given a choice i mean not just saying "you have a choice" but in terms of what they are brought up to believe.

Why is it that we are all too ready to question the reasons behind someone covering her face and assume that she is NOT doing it by choice?

Nic: All societies have norms and values to guide them. So, there are always some types of boundries and some type of pressure dictating what people may put on :O)

Ya.. goes on n on n on..

Again...lol...and the story continues...:)

@ Nic,well said mate...yes if we are talking real freedom,one must look @ the larger picture...asking a twenty-something(or older) woman if she's wearing a headscarf(or full face veil) out of choice & her answering in the affirmitave cannot be viewed as that woman expressing her "freedom",if she's been brainwashed since birth into thinking that mixing with the opposite gender is haram,exposing one's hair/face is haram & all other inter-gender interaction considered normal amongst other societies. That is NOT expressing "freedom",that is merely espousing what one has been brought up to believe is right.

For my muslim brothers & sisters,please don't get me wrong,i respect the Muslim viewpoint on this,i'm only stating that it can't be termed "freedom",real freedom would be explaining Muslim values & view points to the young lady from a young age,allowing her to mingle & interact with different people,of different faiths & points of view as she grows up & allowing her to THEN make a descision & if she THEN chooses to wear the headscarf,THAT is real freedom,now honestly people,the question to be asked is this, how

many Muslim women out there are REALLY expressing "freedom of choice" based on the above scenario?...

we are all govern by law. There is a place for everything and there is time for everything. Men and women already co-exist but the culture where a particular person grew also influence his/her attitude towards the other person. Also the personal conviction or belief of a person do truly make a mark on the his/her perception of freedom he/she thinks.

In this story, the conviction prevails and as long as no one is intimidated or offended by such belief, no law is broken! And definition of freedom is exactly in a person's look!

Freedom is having a society civilized enough so its male population can coexist with the females in bikini without eating them with their eyes, making them feel like preys feel in the animal kingdom, uneasy and at risk.

Due to human nature (natural animal attraction of opposite genders), this mutual respect of coexistence requires adequate Education of mixed genders since young ages, all the way through the individual’s life. Societies where this mix-gender education is non existent or limited, produces male reactions the way (for example) we see here in Qatar and in most of similar societies, leaving the covering-up, the only option for the female population.

Freedom is having a society that doesn't impose any sort of pressure on what people may want to put on.

Freedom is not having people with covered faces in public places, as not only none can be certain if its her choice and none can be certain of the reason why the person is hiding, representing a hazard for those who surround that incognito person.

This is my view and knowing QL, it’s not open for discussion here ;)

Very good article ... It is her "choice" and long may she live..

The keyword here is "Freedom". This person lives in a free society and has the "Freedom" to wear what she pleases.

This applies to both Headscarf and bikini wearers......