First woman fined under burqa ban

I have no problem with the dominant culture requiring that minorities not offend local sensibilities--no veils in France, no headscarves in Turkish universities, no pork in Israeli supermarkets, no crucifixes in German state schools, no more human sacrifices in Mexico, no veils in Syrian state buildings, no new minarets in Switzerland, no crucifixes on Christian churches in Qatar. These are all nations whose constitutions embrace international standards of human rights, including freedom from oppression for religious beliefs (article 35 of the Qatari constitution, first amendment of the US constitution, etc. etc.). Yet each country rightly restricts some outward religious/cultural expressions by minority groups in accordance with national customs and cultures. Nothing wrong with that.

It is you who has the double standard.

May be the Germans were right about it

We are not able to understand each others' point of view

You cannot see how both subjects are linked

while I cannot see how you are buying this double standards

. . .

The ones that think that they are not "naive" still think that it's up to them and YES this is denocracy and Liberty

Horray for the Jews and the NAIVES

If it is a democratic republic then the YOU is the majority. And for LIKE, you need to substitute something along the lines of 'what the majority finds does not harmfully impinge on their conception of morality or well being.'

On the contrary to the example we are discussing now the amazingly made an unbelievable achievement in the "Liberal Countries" to put in jail if you only question their beliefs or myths.

It's getting us back to your definition of liberty

"I'm free to do what you want or what you like"

As in this case, unlike the Aztec example, it's just "You don't like it"

Perhaps this is an amendment to the Statut des Juifs !

hislam--are you that naive? No freedom is absolute in any society. With regard to religion, the Aztec practiced human sacrifice. That does not give people following that religion in France today the riot to sacrifice other people. Freedom of speech does not give someone the right to libel.

The people of France have decided that veils are contrary to their definition of a liberal, secular society in the same way that Qatar has decided that it is contrary to its values that women should not be topless at public beaches. Their country, their rules. If you don't like it, don't go there and don't buy their products.

The current Constitution of France was adopted on October 4, 1958. It is typically called the Constitution of the Fifth Republic.

Aren't there generic freedom rights of belief and religuous practice?

Doesn't this law breach these rights?

Can they simply vote in something similar to any other belief......like for example the headcover of Seikh (I'm not sure how it's named or pronounced) because they don't like how it looks?

ridiculous and typically french! they do not believe in religion and don't want anyone to believe in it!!!

naseer, do not misunderstand me, I DO NOT think what they did was a wise move.I only explained to you that it was in full compliance with the form of government that apply in their country.

Are the French trying to teach citizenship to their own? I, honestly believe that will be wastefull, since those other lovabable creatures do believe they are so perfect....

naseer, in a democracy, there is always opposition, it is perfectly normal.

naseer, I do not believe the laws in Saudi were "for my good". Never the less, I lived there, so I obeyed them.

if one lives in a certain place, even if one feels that laws are unjust for what ever reason, one can, if one happens to be in democratic place, oppose them by democratic means.

The law in France was not imposed, it was democratically voted for.

One may not like aor agree with it, but then one is free to do what I stated in the Last paragraph.

This law was not voted in to cause unrest or conflict. IF that were to happen, then there will be other laws to take care of that.

naseer, I generally agree. I have lived in Saudi myself, and never had a problem obeying their laws.

There is a slight difference though. The government systems by which those laws are implemented are different.

In the West, they are VOTED in by the people, per se. In Saudi, for example, they are imposed.

Never the less, if one goes to either of those countries, one is obliged to obey by their laws.

Now, people complain about what happens in France..quoting "it is a democracy which offers certain freedoms to people". Well yes, and one of those freedoms is to put laws into existence.

The people who are opposed to that law have the right to use democratic means to make their voices heard. BUT, until that law is changed, they must obey it or face the consequences.

Again , this is not possible in a country like, for example, Saudi.

Naseer, why is what Saudi is doing not ok?

(Besides those rules being enforced,without any vote, on some women )

Yes Xena, i'll prefer one man show if this is the case when people start casting votes only for what others have to wear and what not.

you would prefer that one person makes all the decisions?

That would equate to the false prophet, spoken about in both the Q'uran and the Bible.... but wait.... that'll happen soon... lets see if you like it then;-)

Yes Xena

This is the dark side of democracy that every TOM, DCIK & HARRY has a market share.

Please don't change the subject by stating the facts..

We're trying to have a serious discussion here :o)

that keep commenting on France being a democratic country...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10611398

'French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public'

Now correct me if I am wrong, but it would seem like they did vote on it and it was a majority rule to ban the veil...

and the last time I looked, MP's are the voice of their constituencies.... in plain English... they are voted into parliment by the people, for the people...

So I would say... democratically, its a pass!

I'm wondering if you really don't understand or you're intentionally trying to twist my words and impose something on it!

It's not we cannot discuss

It is we cannot state our conclusion / belief as a fact

Scholars earned their knowledge

Ppl like us got the knowledge

IT'S NOT NECESSERY . EVERY HUMN HAS THE RIGHT TO WEAR WHAT THEY LIKE TO WEAR THEN WHY THEY FORCED THE MUSLIM WOMEN TO AVOID BURQA . ITS A PART OF OUR CUSTOMS . SO PLEASE WITHDRAW THE LEGISLATION...

YA ALLAH HELP THEM....

But that is my point; aren't scholars just people who say 'I think'...'I believe'...?

How much 'deep knowledge' is really needed to decide whether a woman should, or should not, cover her face?

It is kind of a low self-esteem thing to say that 'only' scholars can discuss it, as if they are somehow better thinkers than you?

Does that mean if you had a good idea, for the good of your religion, you would ignore it and keep quiet because you are not a scholar?

No Worries mate. I dont get offended that easily :P

hislam--Maybe we sound similar because we are wise, thoughtful and intelligent. You and your cronies sound similar because you are not. And your attempt to misquote me and misinterpret what I wrote underlines my point.

And I don't want to speak for Qhris, Linc, etc. my guess is that they are not nearly as invested in this as you are, so I cannot even fathom the day on which we text each other so as to gang up on someone on QL. It's just not that important.

Khattak--my sincere apologies. I meant to address hislam, and I don't mean to insult you by confusing the two of you ;-)

Uranus1...thats exactly what I was trying to convey to my unwise, unthoughtful & unintelligent fellows that they should be wise, thoughtful & intelligent first & then debate on QL.

And...when did I attempt to misquote/misinterpret you? I am sorry...I've a bad memory :P

The "I know it all" is an adorabale attitude but for sane people, this has to be supported by knowledge, deep knowledge, not only "I think"...."I believe"

However, again to the zilion time, all what I said that we shouldn't give a statement as if it is a well known fact while it is debatable even on the scholars' level

I am intrigued by your quote 'can only be discussed on a scholars level'.

Isn't that a bit degrading to your own intelligence? Are you saying you lack the capacity to talk about it, or just the authority?

It is not Quantum Science; these are things that any normal person can discuss....so why is it only scholars (who aren't a 'higher being', they are just normal people who studied) that can discuss such an issue?

LOLzzz britex...I hope you haven't deleted the text yet:P

bingo khattak

mere mu ki baat chin li

trans: khattak even i recieved ur text

I guess...someone's got the wrong text?

Or someone 'wrong' got the right text?

Grrr...that's confusing *Smacking Mode*

I just rushed back after receiving an urgent text to say that ..

Damn, i've forgotten what to say :O(

You gave the definition of Liberty as

"As I'm free to do what you want or what you want"

My first comment was not to offend Fatimah whom I do think she might be a better Muslim than myself.

I was just saying we should not dare to state "Debatable issues" as facts

A whole army agressively fighting for the same point of view and IRONICALLY they are amazed with the timing of the HOSTILE MUSLIMS log in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alter...Keep alternative, Damn it.

damn

i just turned on my cell phone ;)

LOLzzz Smokey. You got my text too fast. Seems QTel is working fine today :P

I agree with Khattak, thanks for the text message had it not been for that i'd not know this thread existed! Rizks wait for me text.

Qhris yes he did !

So ?

I am not aware of French relgulations regarding protests, but in my country (Poland) to make protest legal you only have to inform authorities some time before (1 week?), state number of expected participant and so on. Sometimes you are told you have to limit your protest to certain area, e.g. one line of the street (if it's a march) so that cars would be able to pass. It is not very difficult to legalize demonstration in Europe, believe me.

Did Khattak just text/call you to say that

LOL Khattak...spot on ! :)

It seems that some QLers text/call each other to login when they see such threads & then, all of them start posting with same tone, same logics, same ideas endorsing each other. Their timings are just amazingly amazing :P

They even used such 'intelligent' tactics against a Niqaabi wearing devout Muslim like Fathimah! So they are sure as hell going to unleash upon 'kafir uranus' :-)

Agreed Uranus1.

Let's see if any of the idiots now claim you hate Islam. That, and calling someone a racist, is their typical last line of defense when they run out of real arguments.

Fatima--Your first post is the most sensible thing I have read on QL in a long time, and your critics only highlight why so many in Europe are fearful that Islam is being used as a tool to oppress rather than liberate women. If they would shut up, then I seriously doubt people would be calling for these bans.

Genesis--Quit pandering to crowd. The police don't arrest all protesters but when it is something this closely followed in the world media and done in front of one of the most public places in Paris, the police have no choice. And, as you surely know, these protesters surely wanted to be arrested in order to give publicity to their cause, because, unlike in the GCC, arrested protesters do not have a habit of dying in jail.

hislam--Liberal is how the French majority define it, as they are a liberal democracy. And how is France doing anything that is not done in Muslim majority countries around the world, including democracies such as Turkey? Your attitude and comments are the reason why Europeans are increasingly seeing Muslims as oppressive influences. France declares itself as secular country and its democratic majority has the right to define it how they wish.

rather talking bout wat happened in the past....

lets think bout future... it can be even more worse...

its not the prob in france alone... all over the world except middle east muslims are treated as though we dont belong to this world. we muslims dont bother bout the hypocrites are the jews are the christians.... and we muslims never grouped people in the name of religion....

actually.... the world is afraid of us... thy dont want the world to be on its better side... and even if thy enforce some stirct laws to forbidden us to follow our religion... allah knows all... he s watchin all these things... watever it happened n its happening and which is gonna happen.. oly by allah's wish... so don worry my fellow muslims... almighty is with us..

NOTE: and all those who hate islam oly coz of wearing a burqah..... don give bad comments oly coz of this alone.. there are millions of aweosme things in our islam... if u don wanna know bout it... thn pls don talk bout it....

If obeying the laws of the land is opposing the shariah law then I this situation u go with later? Isn't it?

I see the french republic collapsing

Our discussion here should be about the hypocrisy of claiming to be Liberal while banning a purely personal act that harms nobody, moreover, going ot the extreme of banning the protest against the law.

FathimaH you don't need to justify your comments to someone who doesn't have the mental capability to understand them :)

As for the fine, well she broke a law she got fined. Big deal.

We're deviating here, Aaghosh

Your statement is much more risky and condemned than Fatima's. We canot judge the faith of anybody.

And Fatimah, I didn't say you're "dammed to hell"

I think you already know the hadith and no need to explain it to you.

I'm just reminding you when there is something debatable on the scholars level, we should not simply state whether the niqab is mandatory or preferable.

Congratulation FatimaH

I fully endorse your comments mention right at start of forum.

If one lives in Rome, they have to live like Roman

yall just get back to your work & do your duties, it's all about France, not about Qatar....lolz

As I said before been a Muslima and a niqaabi myself I hurt for my sisters in France for the oppression they are facing. If tomorrow Qatar, or any country I'm in was to ban the niqaab,Audubillah, then I'll flee to any land that permits it, Inshallah and until I do so I'll stay locked up at home..Because to me wearing the niqaab is very very important.My intention was only to state the Islamic view on breaking laws even in the land of non Muslims.If I was misunderstood then I am sorry and hope I'm clearer hereafter. Jazakhallah khair bros...Barakhallah feekum!

Please, let's not get sidetracked and stick to the topic..

It's true that covering the face is not obligatory

But y give a perfect platform for those preying on such comments

Every saterday in different spots across Paris there are dozen of protests for different causes, do you want to tell me all are authorized?

Plus, it's a known fact that most of the known Paris riots & demonstrations were unauthorized by unions

I thought "unauthorized protest" is a term only used by Arab governments not free & liberal western countries ;)

I'm always in need of Allah's forgiveness and mercy...aren't we all? but please give me the proof that I was wrong in what I stated.

Yes that pretty much sums it up...That's France for ya!

I happen to be from a non Muslim country myself. And while SL is not half as bad as France towards Muslims we faced much hardship there as well. What worked for us was patience and dua...And today Alhamdullilah we are here in Darul Islam! May Allah forgive us all and guide us to the straight path..Aameen! How easy is it to make takfeer for some folks..Audubillah!

Oh get a life everyone! :P

the less U have bit of pieces on your body, the more U'll be liberal, is this what they called french culture?

So I'm been damned to hell and called a "Muslim by name only" for stating the truth! FYI Aaghosh I happen to be a Niqaabi myself...I have been wearing niqaab for over seven years now,Alhamdullilah!

In Islam we are not permitted to commit illegal acts. What the lady did was illegal. Wearing the niqaab is highly recommended but not obligatory and for an act that is not obligatory is it ok to break laws? Now don't go giving me your own opinions...give me proof from the Quran and authentic hadith only where it says its ok to break the laws of the land your in for an act that is not obligatory. I don't doubt that the Muslimas of France are oppressed and for that my heart aches for them but I will never support breaking the law...neither did any of the Salafus saliheen!

Aagosh let's not jump to conclusions

Mistake do happen

If ALLAH is given her a chance y can't we

Genesis, "The law, which was approved by parliament in September, went into effect Monday. Police say the women were not arrested for wearing the veils, but for taking part in an unauthorized protest."

Even in a democracy you have to get the local police permission to run a demonstration in a public place.

Fatima I m disappointed after reading ur comment atleast I was not expecting this from u :(

Fatwa pe amel keroogay to fate wali jannat milaygi

Takwa pe amel karoogay to takwe wali jannat milaygi

Trans: sister Fatima may GOD bless you and forgive you ameen

What I don't get why arrest protestors that oppose the ban?

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/europe/France-Begins-Enforcing-Full-Face-Veil-Ban--119608834.html

Apparently France is not that "liberal" or "democratic" as we all thought ;)

i saw somebody said here, " its security risk" hahahaa... so if we banned the Burgha...u are secured ?? how man.. almost all the teaves and criminals are gents...may allah will forgive u and ur french ...

Fines for violation of rules, laws etc are meted out to their violators every second all around the world ... whats the big deal here.

It will take some time to explain.

But NO the statement doesn't mean she's "just get damned to hell"

It means we have to be carefull when we give religious statements

Who is the freedom advocate now????!!!!!

So, It's all to No-a-veil :O(

did fathima just get damned to hell? lol. i think it shud b banned evrywere! its a security risk!!

Interesting question, jervis. If she wears a veil and is punished for this 'crime', she can continue wearing it because noone can be punished a second time for the same crime. She just has to prove that she never took off the veil!

It's easier to judge the lady than to condemn the law..........yes!!!!!

Jervis a month? I think its 150 per day if she plans to wear it everyday...let alone some other cop catching her somewhere else in a day. :P

WoW...Congrats Frenchieman.

Mind you

Dare you "Fatwa", Dare you Hell

أجرأكم على الفتوى أجرأكم على النار

Fact is even in Islam whilst wearing the niqaab is not obligatory obeying the laws of your land is so the lady in question was wrong and deserved the penalty,Allahu alam. I hope and pray other Muslims will not follow her.If wearing the niquab is so important to them then rather than committing crimes and facing punishments and disrepute,which is unislamic, it will be happier for them to instead be patient and try migrating asap to lands where they have the freedom to practice their religion as they wish..sad but true,like it or leave it!