Can democracy work in the Arab world?

Nic again

a person in early morning was running around corniche, don't U think that this is the fault of a particular religion who force him to do so?.....lol

Superiority conflict expressed in clear terms Nic. This would not find many here who trust your intentions. Helping in this region can only be sought from trustworthy sources. Your comments Nic fail to express your claimed intentions for advancement of debate and exploration of new ideas. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you need to work on your style of debate initiation, and make it clear that your intention is constructive.

Uranus1,

It’s all good, I am not struggling as I don’t belong here ;)

I have nothing to gain here (in QL) really, nor I hate anyone (as Genesis thinks), I just incite debate because I believe that debate can generate ideas even in sleepy minds.

Some of us are lucky enough to be free and think, say and write pretty much everything we want (even criticizing and questioning our own religions).

All we are doing is what their beloved Sheika asks them to do: To THINK (out of their imposed unconscious box)!

As I said, I provoke debate, beyond their permitted limits with an intention to make them open their minds.

Most of the debates I engage in (i.e. laborers work conditions, labor law, law enforcement, traffic rage, Qatar’s overdevelopment, unsustainability, environmental issues, Qatari identity at risk, mistreatment of maids, religious fanaticism, etc…) do NOT affect my life in any means. I am just exposing areas for improvement, to share my views in the hope that someone on the other side would read and get inspired to contribute for improvement of the concerned topic, the affected people or themselves.

Being nice and politically correct will only feed their dormant stage and would only give the wrong impression that all is good. This would be further damaging what needs to be addressed.

Unfortunately, most debate opponents have no valid arguments, limiting themselves to threats, insults and personal religious convictions.

Genesis is actually one of the exceptions but he misreads my intentions.

I don’t blame them, we are all a product of our education and life experience and in this region I understand that they are taught to limit themselves when in comes to open criticisms and certain issues that can’t be questioned.

This diversity of cultures and points of views, is what keeps QL ticking!

Its not a struggle it’s an entertaining challenge!

;)

I think it is a mistake to see the current movements in Arab world as either related or motivated by ideology. Each country has its own unique sets of problems; if anything they were inspired by each other to move against autocratic rule, but not much beyond that.

Genesis--I would say they are copying the West in terms of the values shaping their expectations of what they see as natural rights--rights to a degree of personal freedom, that public opinion should matter, and the right for economic self betterment in a fairly level playing field. While the movements might adapt them to their own purposes, those values are inherently from the West. The preamble of the US Constitution, the French Rights of Man, or the US Declaration of Independence, all assert these values in an aggressive political sense for the first time. And, as today in the Arab world, the autocratic powers in Europe cooperated to crush these movements for the better part of a century. Sometimes the result was democracy, but usually it was more autocracy, dictatorship and ethnic strife.

Nic--your relationship with Qatar is mutual exploitative. Your struggle to express yourself and their disdain for your expressions are all part of the negotiation.

LincolnPirate,

lol... me too, i always check the labels

;)

I would see it like this, the West had had the brains to develop Quantum Physics which made it possible to use the quantum properties of electrons to be used in processors which then were made in China under the supervision of Western scientists. And I have a carbon fiber case for my computer which is not based on Saudi oil. I would never buy Saudi oil! Rather the one from Norway or the USA.

genesis,

lol... sad that you haven’t moved away from that "if you don’t like it, then go".

Who told you that I am not taking advantage of your dictatorship? lol

Do you mean that for me to stay here (partly) I need to not have an opinion?

You are yet another one who things that he knows how it is to grow up in a democracy, but sometimes (just sometimes, because you are a nice guy with an open mind considering from where you come from) you show us the opposite.

So the "West" have exclusive ownership of technology now? I bet that you are using a Chinese computer, that was designed in Japan and was made from a plastic of Saudi oil and you are getting your connection from a server in India. West is the same West who "democratically" created two "World" wars. Please move to the new era.

Who cares what you people think, It's people who are deciding now

Those people were ruled by autocrats & their cronies for so long, of course the road will be bumpy at first

And Nic...If you’re so fond by your “rosy” democracy, What the hell are you still doing in the seedy Arab world ?

Like I’ve said it many times earlier, you’re so consumed by your hate & prejudice

Funny that you talk English to me, genesis!

no one is copycating the west. Even liberals & secular has their own ideology here & are not completely affected by the west

It's easy, Translator: just try not to be a copy cat of the West! Don't use the Western inventions excessively, don't deal with the West at all. Don't sell your oil for Western Dollars. God, you are sinning all the time!

Good then, we agree that it does not work in the Arab world. Now, can we agree on avoiding import/export of an idea that we agreed it does not work?

Translator,

You and OneShot appear to be 2 examples of:

"Those who don’t have it (democracy) sadly can’t even dream of what it really represents, in one’s life!"

Democracy, among many many many other things, is not only about free elections and its not only about giving all the same opportunity upon birth to be leader of a nation, it is essentially about having the possibility to think and say what you want, without having the fear for being chased and locked up!

Islam doesn't allow that, one can never dare to think or ask out of its box. Most people, who grow in this sect, are programmed to police and exercise control and revenge to protect the interests of this ideology (see just what is happening now in Afghanistan, as an example out of so many). No humor, no criticism, no forgiveness, only blindly comply with its imposed rules with no space for discussion, progress or evolution... In this scenario, democracy is NOT possible.

It requires a certain degree of civilization, not yet achieved in certain cultures due to the holding back of religious imposed pressure.

I leave you with some links where you and OneShot, may learn a few things:

Democracy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

Democracy (where is it really working): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Arab World: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_world

I agree with OneShot, define the following first:

What is

- democracy (which country do you consider a true democracy)

- work (where is it really working)

- arab world (why do you consider all as one ?)

well Nic i know it sounds stupid to say Diversity of riligious beliefs is problamatic in a democratic environment.. but that really applies to tribal and 3rd world countries not in places like Europ and the US. In here, religion drive politics and democracy is pretty much politically driven. Moslims, Jews, Christians believe Jerusalem is their holly place and they each want it!..Any Moslim who thinks peace is a solution is considered a traitor by most islamic groups... So, picture a palastine-israel future state with democracy and freedome of speach granted. You wanna tell me Islamic groups who believe killing a jew takes you to heaven or Israeli extremeists who want israel free of arabs will all just quit their efforts, hug eachother and start singing and dancing?

another great example is Lebanon. It is the only place in all that region with democracy... hahaha more than 20 religious sects with opposing goals, unfortunately they are all given a green light to kill each other, mislead the public through their privately owned media channels which is per opinion and last but not least contribute in lies that goes written in history text books where students study it and write exams about its content without proper governance... thanks to demcracy

democracy is like a very powerful weapon.. amazing to have but the misuse could be costly and many are just not ready for it..

Personally i've no problem with democracy, but its make me more worry when i see people from the so called democratic countries giving lectures on democracy, however they don't look back to the nondemocratic actions of their democratically elected leaders.

To name it, invasion of Libya is the recent victim of these so called democratic system, where majority of their own people don't want to interfere and even the UN resolution only emphasizes on no fly zone, rather than striking and supplying training and weapons to the rebels.

Long Live So Called Democratic Nations.

I would disagree..

The fact there is a constitutional monarchy in place is irrelivant. the British people are free to elect their representatives who are held accountable to them.

Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand. democarcy can work in the arab world, but it will take time and it must evolve at its own pace - not be dictated by outsiders.

Britexpat--I know, I am British (among other things). But the system is an elected oligarchy without any real executive. It's a system that has evolved in constitutional monarchies (like Spain, Norway, Netherlands) and is fundamentally different to what has developed in old colonies like the US and Ireland, which have effective executive branches. No one seems to be advocating a British-style democracy (no real head of state and no written constitution) for these places, so I did not list in my OP that started the thread.

I appreciate what nic and others have said, and like the idealism of some of the posts.

My sense is that democracies in many of the Arab countries would become tyrannies of the majorities in which ethnic, racial and religious minorities would be severely persecuted by law. This happened in the UK, Canada, South Africa, Australia, US, etc., and only recently has much of that lingering legislation been removed. I don't think Arabs as whole are at that level of political correctness to protect as a majority the conditions of the minority. Yes there are many exceptions as individuals, but the only quasi-democratic state is Israel (which is heavily populated by Arab Jews), and it systematically oppresses minorities as matter of policy. Would a democratic Egyptian government that relied on populist support do a better job when it came to Christians? Just ask the former pig owners who saw their livelihoods ruined by religious prejudice, ignorance of basic epidemeology, and popular sentiment. How would Sunnis be treated in a post-revolutionary Bahrain, sub-Saharan Africans in Libya, Shia in KSA, the Alawi in Syria, etc.? My guess is poorly.

I certainly would not want to live in Qatar if it suddenly became a democracy in the style of the US. I spoken to too many Qataris (who themselves are disparaging of popular views amongst nationals). I am a racial minority, a religious minority and a foreigner, and I appreciate the liberal laws created by the hereditary ruling elite that allow my family and me to feel welcome and safe. Without them I would not be here.

Hey Brit expat r u indian by origin?

The UK is a democracy. We vote for the party and its manifesto - not individuals. the party is then free to choose a leader.

One_shot--I defined democracy in the OP as being something akin to the US. Not the ancient Athenian system. And yes I know there are other democracies and the US is not a perfect one, etc., etc., etc., (personally I prefer the Irish model with its weaker president). But the US model is often pushed the hardest and it is the one with which the world has the greatest familiarity. I would not include the UK, as it is effectively an oligarchy led by the unelected leader of a political party.

the right to call themselves free was fought by many people who were uneducated...

...they were following what I wonder?

what was creating/guiding this??

Then democracy and development are directly linked with education.

so did telephones and airplanes, but they are imported lock, stock and barrel into developing countries

Those democratic countries have evolved over time,remember it was the people's choice in the UK, France and else where ,it didn't happen over night.

Look at Belarus today, despite being in Europe and a secular country, yet the people are still struggling to topple that dictator.

then compare it (them) to long-lived demorcatic countries and ask yourself what are the differences that impair the development of democracy?

Give me 5 main differences in 5 minutes....

There are many secular Arab countries, for example Syria which has been ruled by a secular regime for the last 50 years yet no progress.(Libya is secular too,42 years)

This region has tried both system (secular and religious), neither has worked. Syria,Iraq,Tunisia,Egypt (secular) , Iran,Saudi,Sudan (religious) , so where are the missing link ?

books, a diverse political philosophy, that you can cherry-pick from to create a political system that works for that specific culture.

I do not know about far-eastern cultures, but I know that European and North/South American cultures have an ever developing, sophisticated sections that churn out this stuff on a daily basis.

Arab cultures, and excuse me if I am wrong, have none of this. Therefore, how can they expect to impliment a system overnight. First, they have to get beyond their totalitarian religious system, and then develop real political discourse, and build themselves up from there...

Being secular is essential but not the only sufficient criteria, as you probably know!

Tunis,Iraq and Syria were/are secular countries yet they've failed to achieve any acceptable form of democracy.

When did countries like Greece,Spain,Portugal,the former Communist bloc...etc became democratic ? only 20~30 years ago, so I think we should excuse the Arab world for not being democratic.

Most of the Arab countries have enjoyed a brief breeze of democracy which didn't last long which was replaced by militant regimes due to internal and external factors.

Democracy needs certain ingredients to brew and it's not limited to certain cultures.

britexpat,

I think you are forgetting that there is huge difference between a country having a religion majority and its government including that religion in its policies.

Countries you refer with majority Christians, are governed by secular governments where all religions are treated equally!

If a government adopts a religion as part of its policies, it can never be democratic, because it wont equally consider other religions!

before you start debate with each others ...............please DEFINE democracy

Democracy is possible in any country. Religion does not come into it. Europe had democracy when the countries had a major majority of Christians.

tkd,

so you believe that diversity is averse to democracy and a one-religion state (totalitarian) is pro democracy?!

ask the american army :D

possible..

Great Question!

I'd say there are more chances in islamic Arab countries rather than multi religious ones.

The diversity of the cultural/Religious beliefs and that tribal way of thinking would will always stand in the way of democracy.

Religions alone have contradictory goals especially in politics. So democracy will do nothing but encourage more fire, more blood and more long term conflicts.

desertshark2011,

Only secular countries can be democratic.

If you mix religion with politics, you get what you see in the Arab world!

Religion is a powerful tool to control masses as it distracts them away from this life's affairs. While everyone is busy complying with the rituals and getting ready for life after death, the cleaver ones exploit them and remove them of what it takes to become conscious of their actual situation in this life!

Some religions do a better job than others in keeping their followers busy with those rituals, and the one mostly practiced in the Arab world in the number one in doing so!

Thus, democracy in religious states is utopia!

They should learn from the democracies in Asia and adjust and organise the best way that it can work for them. As for the tyrants who have been fooling this guys for all this years they are best sent along the way of Saddam, Mubarak and perhaps Ceaucenscu of Rumania

"Those who have it, often take it for granted. Those who don’t have it, sadly often can’t even dream of what it really represents in one’s life!"

Well put ..

It’s rather disappointing to read here that so many think, democracy is essentially limited to free elections to elect a government!

A democratic system (even not perfect - guys don’t forget we are still talking about humans) has a huge impact on its citizens lives and personal development.

Just to illustrate: imagine being born in a system where all have chances to become a prime minister or president? In dictatorships that aspiration is already stripped out of all individuals even before they are born!

Just this small benefit, has an enormous impact on the individual’s growth, development, behavior and consequently posture in life, completely different for those born in dictatorships (even in super rich countries) where the individual’s aspirations are limited even before they are born.

The opportunity to experience equal personal growth and the active participation in the development of a country is what essentially distinguishes a democracy from a dictatorship!

Those who have it, often take it for granted. Those who don’t have it, sadly often can’t even dream of what it really represents in one’s life!

So a "working" democracy resulted into electing a puppet president, would that criteria still hold?

You cannot have democracy in any political system that is governed by dynastic succession unless you take power away from the ruling body.

Just thought I'd point it out.

@Uranus Please up date your list of Democracies with the name of the Largest Democracy in the World, where there is 100% paperless voting:

On the topic, as long as there is oil money coming in for certain Arab countries it is wiser to stay away from democracy. Foe the rest of the crowd where resources are limited any ways, corruption less democracy if that can be managed will work out best. Bottom line; Look in to your GDP before talking about elections.

dahuson atleast the citizens are looting and not one tyrant. So democracy works well in India.

What's in democracy.In India, boasting of democracy, is not behind any developing country in terms of powerty, unemployment and corruption. For me, democracy is nothing but" too many looting the state" instead of one in monarchy

brit, in those days there were no representatives. The Greek had a 'direct' democracy. Every citizen had an equal voice at the meetings in the agora (marketplace). However, the size of these societies was limited to 5000. Our democracies are 'representative'. We elect those who tell us that they will take care of our issues once they are in power. But as mentioned earlier, once they are in power, they forget what they had said before.

Did the "representitives" in those heady days also not listen to the people once elected ?

demos in Greek means 'people', cratein in Greek means 'being strong'. Therefore in a democracy people are strong to vote for the wrong representatives.

these people who are elected trough democratic means anyway work for the interests of the big businesses and not for the electorate who voted for them.

Is this what democracy is all about?

Yes, but we have a puppet president in place and we can also tell our people that the place is now DEMOCRATIC !

If a country must be invaded and occupied by foreign forces to bring democracy, then it is not a question ever to be asked. Iraq is a an example, the chaos they "enjoy" today and for the next unknown time is a result of a democracy exported, with purposely ignoring if it works or not.

yes it can just inside the Parliament

Is there real democracy anywhere anymore ?

We elect our politicians on an agreed manifesto and once they get ingto power, they forget the agreement and do their own thing. if you complain , you are labeled as an anarchist or unpatriotic..

I will take a benevelant monarchy which allows some freedom of sppech..

No.

democracy will not work in the Arab world.

Democracy is not anywhere in world...i can prove...

for all national woes, its a barely workable system that seems to have a small advantage over other barely workable systems.

Most western nations are really struggling to survive at the moment (thats why we are all out here!)

It can, but it won't.