Any identity of a nation is culture.

I'm not sure what you meant by this, but I think a culture, and country, is judged by the way it treats its animals.

"Brit"

You shouldn’t be surprised considering your real origins!

The culture of a society comprises many aspects such as morals, beliefs, history, art and literarture. These values usually have a bearing on a person's attitude towards life.

I am therefore surprised when he says "I have lost nothing (by becoming a Qatari citizen).”

Nic, collective thinking is definitely not the case in India. The population is very varied as a result of the different states, religious beliefs and education levels. The closest thing that comes in uniting the country would be cricket. In most other cases, different people different opinions. There are the metropolitan cities in India, where live-in relationships are common, while there are the smaller towns and villages where even dating might be considered taboo.

The original incident had hardly any reaction, other than a few political parties trying to blow it up and use it as a campaign weapon.

Regarding Sweden, well I don't think there are even a handful of countries in the world that are at the same level, where public nudity might not even raise an eyebrow and India is certainly not at that level.

deepb,

I am glad we reached a consensus ;)

Deepb,

In no way I am trying to imply that the reaction of some Indian citizens in this case is equal to the Muslim reactions to the Danish cartoons or facebook competition. What I was trying to say is that both share the same source: collectivism thinking.

Ps. We are talking about art, but as you mentioned, President Bill Clinton wouldn't have to face the embarrassment in lets say again Sweden, like he did in the somehow (believe it or not) conservative American society.

Nic, again there was no real pressure exercised over the artist. What he did may or may not be deemed illegal under the laws of the Indian Constitution, and that is why cases were lodged against him.

You cannot say that a majority reaction happened in this case, when you count that the Indian population is in the range of 1.2 billion + . The people who reacted were just a small percentage and even they did not go to any sort of extreme reaction.

In the case of a Muslim Society, like the case of caricatures on facebook, it ends up becoming an outright ban by the government, and fatwa's being issued. I don't see how that is comparable when the Indian democratic government which is a true representation of the people of India chose to offer him protection while he was on trial.

I feel the reaction from the Indians were more on par with the disgust that the Americans felt when Bill Clinton was caught in the Monica Lewinsky Scandal.

Deepb,

Tolerant in the sense of seeing his creations as art, as his own personal creations, independent from any other individual's personal views.

To better illustrate what I am trying to say, let's give the example of Sweden. Do you think you would have collective reactions to the same piece of art, to the point of exercising pressure over the artist? You might get critical reviews but they won’t certainly be taken as representing the society's view. On the other hand, a Muslim society would react in a similar way that India did, to a perceived offensive piece of art.

Hofstede's work (sorry to insist on this author), explains these different social reactions (Individualism versus Collectivism).

It’s an interesting topic that helps us to understand this world's diversity.

Nothing wrong or right, just different!

That's what I fail to understand, Nic. I don't see how the reactions could've been more tolerant? There was no violence involved. He disrespected the majority of Indian population, they shunned him. How else could they have reacted?

Deepb,

I am not saying that it was wrong or right. The reaction in question (equally to the art itself) is subjective to who looks at it.

What I am trying to do here is to understand and debate, how certain societies react to art (in this case), versus others more tolerant.

Nic, I fail to see what was wrong with the overall reaction by the general population of India towards this artist. He painted something that is not appreciated by them and they rejected it. Legal cases were filed for being unconstitutional. The government did not ban his paintings or denounce him and on the contrary provided with him police protection as well, while the cases were being tried.

He chose to make a run for it. The reason seems to be clear to me. He fell out of the popular society in India and decided to take his business elsewhere. It's just a publicity stunt and nothing else.

I was going to comment on vinuvnair's comment, but John has done it well.

Once and for all:

Art is an individual's personal creation.

The way it’s perceived depends on the one (and his/hers "luggage") who looks at it.

Just because one or a group of people, don't like a piece of art, it does not mean that that piece is not art.

Obviously the History of Art in the West has equipped modern societies to be able to distinguish an artist's creation from their own existence.

In the west, people tend to think as individuals; in some other cultures people are still educated to comply, behave and think as per the establishment’s rules. Individual critical thinking is quite new in some societies and others it’s not allowed or tolerated. In these circumstances, you either get the masses adoration or the masses condemnation!

The generalized Indian rejection of this artist, although in a softer version, is caused by the similiar factors and can be compared to the reactions of the famous Danish cartoons.

In both cases the reactions are ignited by collective thinking - the way a certain group of people is expected to react in accordance with the rules they abide to (religion in this case).

No time to elaborate here, but the difference of opinions here, can be traced from where you come from: societies characterized by Individualism or by Collectivism.

If you are interested in this topic read more about Group thinking (for example here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink)

Also I recommend the work of the Dutch sociologist Gerard Hendrik Hofstede, who studied social behaviors in different types of cultures.

John actually it is mentioned in the Indian constitution that the fundamental duty of every citizen is to ensure that he doesn't offend anyone's religious beliefs and renounce practices derogatory to the dignity of women. This constitution is for all the citizens of India, even to those who can draw a bit. What he did was considered unconstitutional and that's why a case was filed against him but he chose to run away to Dubai and now Qatar.

I know you may not agree with what is written in Indian constitution but it's the same for all of us.

the band of BLIND.

One wonders why Hussain has been ignoring women from other religions from joining the gallery of nude portraits, like that of Bharat Mata.He did not do so for reasons known to him. Does it not amount to discrimination? Perhaps the religious element in him took control of the artist element and he painted the Hindu goddesses in the nude to denigrate a vast majority of his compatriots.

Perhaps, Hussain the artist does not know what he has missed by being discriminatory in painting some and leaving out other eminent ladies in the nude. Let us wish him better luck next time when he feels inspired to paint women in the nude so that he spreads his net far and wide without any bias, fear or favour.

If he does that, then i will agree with Nic and consider him as a true artist otherwise he will be known as a BIGOT.

of all the religion and nations. An artist and art cannot be biased. If they are, then the sense of artist and art form which you expressed cannot fall TRUE. In case of MFH, he is biased. If you had followed his work closely - your interpretation would have been different. For an artist, what you told is true, but MFH is LESS ARTIST AND MORE BIGOT.

If you need to see all his works, I have it and can mail you. For example - When he painted HITLER - headless and nude, he went to media and said he did so out of hatred for him. But when he did painted GODDESS of a particular religion - nude, he and people like you said - ITS A ART FORM. If we take it as a art form for a while, why he did not touch other religous figures or ladies from other religions ??

Blind is the man who can't think for himself and solely relies on other's views, to see the world!

Art begins at home

saheeh hadith

“The most severely punished of people on the Day of Resurrection will be the image-makers, those who tried to imitate the creation of Allaah.” And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The makers of these images will be punished on the Day of Resurrection, and they will be told, ‘Give life to that which you have created.’”

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed those who consume riba (interest, usury) and those who pay it, and he cursed the image-makers. This indicates that making images is forbidden.

Then facebook will get banned !!! Wait..... thats for a caricature not a nude painting. Oh well...

Nothing against any religion.. But one question... What will happen if he portrait some thing from his own religion.

Just curious

Vinuvnair,

Your conclusions are vain and unsubstantiated.

It is a bit simplistic to assume that what an artist said about a particular piece of art, applies to other creations.

Human beings, their understanding, interpretation and expression of their surrounding world, all mature and evolve organically.

Art is an individual’s creation, its beauty, value and importance only exists in those who interpret it, as a reflection of their own souls.

and plays with the local culture, he will then understand the consequences and then it will will not exile but EXIT from life itself. If you have gone through his interview, some years back, he mentioned that he painted HITLER - nude, because he hates him. So when he painted, Goddess in the same manner, - it shows his hatred towards the majority religion in india. He used double edged sword and got wounded.

i really missed this thread....you guys were keep on discussing...but after going through all postings..i felt here also majority discarded Hussain deed...and in my opinion he is nothing but a old guy who is really FRIVOLOUS PERVERT...but shrewed guy who knows other side of MEDIA IMPACT well and that is "Negative portray of life is a shortcut key to be popular and being in demand". i will only suggest Hussain...if people / society / community / nation is honouring you then you got to have extra care about your responsibility towards them. at least be a HUMAN...that's missing in your some of work.

Collective individual culture forms the culture of a nation; if he cannot find himself in the mirror in front of him that means .................!!!! He couldnt respect the cultural values of his motherland how he can do it for his step mother.

He is even talking about luxury....always going behind high end luxuries like ferrari.... etc..... LoL...!!!

Just trying to coverup the hole with darkness...!! I feel pity on him.

God Save Qatar.

I am not assuming at all.. your comment says so.. coz if you read m,y entire post AND your were smart, i don' think you would have made a frivolous comment.

Having said that, let's agree to disagree, I don't wanna waste my time on this old dude. Not worth my time.

Shame on him...

ghazalz it wasn't about Madhuri who is in US by the way. He painted nude paintings of Hindu Gods in compromising position so there was a protest against him and a case was filed against him. He blames Indian government for not supporting him.

and where's Madhuri?

Hussein, India is lucky for not having people like u. You are in the position of a newly married man after some time the life will tell u the reality.

You will not have chance and time to get back.

We dont have camilians but have you

lol venky, why are you assuming that I didn't read the full article?

"Smart" people don't assume, In the words of my first boss, everytime you "ass""u""me", you make an ass of u and me. So stop assuming for starters.

WK: go to timesofindia.com and look at some of the articles that get passed off as news.

And you missed the remaining part of the article because of one statement you read. That actually proves my point that it is easy to be influenced because people consume news as if its a commodity.

He really does point a finger on that quote from how I felt reading it...but I'm confused to where (yes it's closely more of a 'where').

he should have used his painting for more social cause than miring himself in controversy ..........india is where he has got what he is now

Point missing, nut bolt loose,

even though the most luckiest man to twist with Madhuri and many new comers chicks, roaming in luxury cars, staying palatial villas, got Qatari citizenship...Being a billionaire and popular.

There is not much point to anything the old man says and our own Gulf Times also doesn't print articles with a point. So why search for a point in QL brit ?

So what exactly is the point of the article ?

The "culture" aspect was only in the headline...

lol deepb, that much is true :P

Well WK..., I see something common in both. Both the authors had few nuts and bolts missing :P

lol Venky, you should definitely stop calling yourself smart for starters if you equate a stupid thread on an anonymous online forum in Qatar by an Indian expat to the statement made by M.F. Hussein to the press agencies.

WK: People go crying to the media over everything. There was even a thread here by some doctor lady about how she had been mistreated, was it or will it be covered by the media?

The point is news is business, MF Husain for long lived in a palatial house in Dubai and I have met him at the Mall of Emirates and he was driving a luxury car, its not like he is a political refugee as he has and the media helped him make out to be in front of the populace at large.

That's why I blame the media for deeming it newsworthy. That led to the over reaction people faced, some of it also has to do with jealousy, a lot of Indians would want to be Qatari because of the privileges enjoyed by them.

whyteknight,

so I was wrong, maybe your unsubstantiated defensive comments did come from your superiority complex ;)

Seriously, go and read about it and you will realize that its not about being better or worse, superior or inferior, its about the natural evolution of human kind and its societies, not being at the same pace world wide - and this is what makes this world so amazingly diverse.

lol I am actually totally calm and if anything I have a superiority complex. What made you think I have any inferiority complex, lol...You assume too many things Nic.

Invite All to visit Incredible India...

Each state have its OWN beauty and indepth values and cultures...which are extremely difficult to find anywhere else in the WORLD!

Mera Desh Mahaan!

You sell skin, We sell blood and kidneys

Whyteknight,

I think you missed my point.

I never said that there are perfect societies (that's a complete non-sense) nor do I say that my opinions are the "better way".

Relax man, we are all in progressive mode, some are mature enough to embrace diversity with mutual respect, some are less prepared to do so, that's it.

Do go and read more about it, its a fascinating topic and you do not need to embrace what I write here, just reach your own conclusions and don’t feel inferior, we are all part of that evolution process, including countries like North Korea that are conditioned by politics to a slower process, but even them, they will evolve!

Nic societies have evolved and they will keep evolving. Yet I don't think there will ever be a world where we can all agree on what is a perfect civilisation. There will always be certain things which will be allowed in some cultures and the very same things will not be allowed on other cultures. You think your way of thinking is the better way, some others think theirs is a better way, we just have to learn to appreciate our differences..

lol, bribing god for everything is common for us....that signboard looks reliable. Where is that temple? I need to visit there urgently.

Whyteknight,

Don’t take it as a negative connotation, it's all about sociology and history! Every society has suffered evolution along its history.

Do you agree that the mentality, way of life, education levels, and the way people understand the world they live in, etc, etc... have changed in Mumbai (as a specific example) since lets say, 2nd century?

The measurement of the differences of those factors between the II and the XXI century, gives you an insight of the civilizational evolution of the referred society.

I recommend you read more on this topic, there are innumerous authors that approach this issue from deferent perspectives and from different schools of thoughts.

It is in Hindi but what is written is this is a temple for miraculous Visas. We have special prayers for Visas

A-14F, New Sarai, IGNOU Road. New Delhi.

You can visit it if you ever visit New Delhi.

Wait, let me search for the pic.. It is written in Hindi though..

Nic once again, what is civilized for you isn't civilized to everyone. The women in my village think westerners are uncivilized as they eat meat, women show their skin and a lot of other things.

Different people, different cultures, different definitions of civilisation.

ROFLing!!!!!! Are you serious!! I need to visit this temple :D

It's just so strange, I think back to my university days when I had friends who were hard core Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Athiest, Buddhist and we would have the greatest arguments and discussions and thought nothing of being sarcastic about the others beliefs. Really doesn't prepare you for life in a no free speech country.

Olive we still have to catch up and a huge majority of people are still controlled by religious sentiments. Religion above all else is the motto for many.

You know there is a temple in Delhi where the signboard outside says," Praying here gets you a Visa to the west".

God is even a Visa agent now :)

Can't offend him :)

Whyteknight,

The ability to allow free and independent art creation and the ability to consider opinions or art itself to what they solely are, is a matter of civilizational evolution... it will come with time as societies mature.

We have just as many different religions in Canada WK, and even more races and cultures, yet we don't try and curb our artists or peoples right to express themselves. No riots in the streets for us. It's all about how you educate people.

Bullpatootie. How will we ever evolve has a society if we don't push the envelope? If it wasn't for offending people's "sentiments" we would still think the sun evolved around the Earth and the earth was flat. Not only that but people in the Middle East would still be worshipping multiple Gods as Mohammed would have been so afraid of offending someone he would have kept the Quran to himself.

That will be the ideal scenario Olive but it's hard to achieve. In a country like India with so many different religions present in large numbers, communal tensions are anyway very hard to control. It takes a great effort to keep everything going smoothly and a "respected" artist should know better than to offend any religion.

I am with you on this point; when we are living in a multi cultural/religious society, one is expected to respect Religious sentiments of ALL.

Should not offend people's emotions and faith.

Double Post

Exactly WK......

I am with you on this point; when we are living in a multi cultural/religious society, one is expected to respect Religious sentiments of ALL.

Should not offend people's emotions and faith.

OR one is expected to understand that everyone has different beliefs and to let EVERYONE express them, even if you don't agree.

Yes majority of his works are clearly an individual perception which he should not misrepresent as his country's culture.

The old man's a little too perverted in my opinion.

Drawing the bums and cleavage of Madhuri Dixit is wht he calls the nations Culture??

Nic where you come from it tells you that.

Where we come from it tells us that individual form of expression is fine unless and until it doesn't offend someone else's beliefs.

whyteknight,

Art is an individual's form of expression, regardless the level of tolerance, acceptance and appreciation of others.

Nic/Olive that's where your culture is different from ours. Religion is too sensitive an issue here and anything against that gets a big reaction.

I think in most parts of the world it is, the problem is when art steps into sticky areas like religion & in some occasions sexuality or may in some way harm people. This is a case of art stepping on religion, in other cases I remember an art exhibit being shut down in Toronto because of the artists depictions of older men with younger boys (considered child porn) and in another of an artist attempting to starve a dog as a "metaphor"

In the last two I understand and support the shutting down of the exhibits, however when art takes on religion...well...I don't consider it as harmful to anyone. If you don't agree, don't go see the exhibit.

That's absolutely correct, Olive. Art is indeed an individual’s form of expression and it should be understood and respected as such.

Art as a representation of culture is over rated in my opinion, especially these day. Art is more of a representation of the individual and how they perceive their culture and other cultures.

Identity of any country is its people with or without culture.

exposed to modern technology such as modern electronics, everyone is exposed to different cultures and influenced by it!

unique culture. But today's world is already of mixed and inter-racial marriages, mixed cultures is already in almost all countries. Unless you traveled to the remotest areas of some countries, natural culture is really hardly noticeable!

Arien...lol....but this isn't the first time for placing some such post on front page...:)

The Admin seems to be a Fan of M.F. Hussain :D

WOW kudoes to QL admin, for keeping such a crap thread with an idiotic statement from a overrated artist in the front page. ROFL.. way to go QL.

He said "Any identity of a nation is culture" - the way I read it is: "Culture is part of a nation's identity".

In India's case, as a foreigner, I think that the TV commercial "Incredible India" does illustrate what he meant. It shows us a brush stroke over the rich Indian cultural fabric, no matter how superficial or inaccurate the commercial may be, there are certain cultural features that we can all relate to India.

I believe he didn’t mean to say that identity equals culture, but, culture is part of a nation's identity.

I also think that he used the word "culture" but he probably meant "art".

Its not my concern if there are numerous cultures and subcultures in this world. If Qatar believes they are Islamic Country then they should adopt ONE culture that is ISLAM – COMPLETE WAY OF LIFE which is according to Quran and Sunnah

Embracing low caliber artist like MF Hussein who has promoted nudism is like going back to the age of Jahiliyah.

Maybe the identity of a tiny nation can be based on one culture. Even Qatar has many different visible cultures and traditions. And when you are talking about countries with the size and variety of India, US , China etc. there are literally 1000's of different cultures and traditions. Culture cannot be unified.

And like Nic pointed out, culture undergoes an evolutionary process and keeps adapting itself with time. It cannot be expected to stay stationary.

venky many Indians who take up citizenship elsewhere don't go to the media and cry that India has betrayed them. "Smart" ones need to open their eyes a bit as well.

I felt that the reaction to MF Hussain accepting Qatari citizenship was bullshit in my opinion.

Every day there are many Indians, not as well known as him, take up citizenship in various different countries. One more to the list. The Indian media has no other job but to over-react, the smart ones see through it and don't bother reacting, but we are a minority.

I completely agree with you Nic, always thought it was silly that Canada was looking for a unified culture apart from a nation wide love of hockey & Tim Hortons :P

But my point was that culture and it's meaning is different to everyone and to say that the identity of a nation is based on it's culture is a little ridiculous. Which culture? There could be thousands of different one's?

Culture exist at different levels in any society

In Canada, a rich path of millenniums is today’s partially shared at different levels: federal, provincial, local, native-tribal, the diversity of imported ones, the fusion of those with the local ones, 10000 etcs... all that is Canadian culture.

Speaking of a “unified culture” does not make sense as culture isn’t a frozen set of rules or behaviors. Culture is an organic process with no beginning, no end, no limits, it’s an on going identity transformation. It can only be naturally absorbed but not be artificially imposed (St. Jean Baptiste isn’t not celebrated equally in the entire Canada, as it is in Quebec, However the 1st of July is).

No one should stand against personal creativity - the only process resulting from the inner nature to the outer world. The only tangible intersection between one's soul and the rest of the world!

one young indian... iam sure, not his son. this was about two months back near Lahore Restaurant in Musherib area.

nah WK!! y i would i be? i never drew it..lolxx..nor was it meant to point any of my QL pals :) (unlike many posts)

i was just kinda annoyed with some over reactions to a mere cartoonish pic. anwyays, freedom of speech :P

ohh no...she is still alive and kicking (all wannabe a55es)

Thx noms ...

Bentley ? :(

Who was driving it ?

i'v met him trice already... next time if i happen to meet him,,your message would be delivered Rizks.. I'l ask him to contact you :) last time i met, this guy stepped down of Bentley.

Queen is dead...long live queen....

noms were you offended by the cartoon episode recently, just curious?

Olive what to do, we do over-react :(

happy I am not bothered by him, I know a few people though who will gladly do it ;-)

lol shreeya...

long time, were hab u been ?

Hav u been to London to meet the Queen ? :)

He was asked to move from Dubai, he would have taken the offer even from Somalia or Congo.

He must be missing Madhuri Dixit and the other Bollywood babes.

Mallu restarants ? :(

wats he doing in a mallu resto ?

Eating Porota and Karak Chai ?

He should be in Ritz or Intercon after all he is a Qatari... Yallah roh !!:)

Sketch of your head?....He is more interested in other parts.

drawing unidentified creature would be the toughest job for M.F. Hussain.

WK....may be you should have run over him...:)

Wasn't talking specifically about your culture WK ;)

Go to all the Mallu restaurants near his place regularly, In one of those I ran into him.

:(DamN WK...

Can u call him and fix up an appointment for me ?

I met him here Rizks, you should have told me your wish beforehand

i wish i meet him some day and let him make the sketch of my head....

Oh we do over-react but it wasn't anything that huge against M.F. Hussein, Indian cricket team players face bigger protests after losing a cricket match, just to put things in perspective.

I wish he should draw something related to local culture in his 'own' style

Identity of a person is also culture...which he obviously lost!!

Well certain cultures to like to over react.

Well there is culture in Qatar, different from the places we come from but there is. No society or group can exist without having some sort of culture. The bookish definition we learnt was something about having a shared set of values, goals, beliefs, behaviour and practices.

M.F. Hussein offended the beliefs and values and even the practices of the majority of the Indians. What did he expect and he wasn't even banished from the country and there was zero threat to his life.

Culture is very hard to define and varies incredibly. Canadians have been looking for a unified culture for years and never seem to find one, yet I don't think anyone would say there is nothing in Canada.

I find the culture here fascinating, yet many people say there is none. Question is, what is culture?

Hussein trying to sound wise now, lol..

Indian has no regrets either.