Saving the world's women

Gypsy said "Eastern women don't have enough rights. Flat out plain and simple. Neither do Western women, but we have more then Eastern women and it's important to help ALL women get the same rights as men. "

Absolutely. The same rights and the freedom to choose whether to exercise that right or not.

/Off tangent but - the reason why some men hold on to control is because of their lack of confidence (personal or professional), fear and negativity - not progressive and thus, things basically either stall or go downhill from there.

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The Cookie Monster said it.

I refuse to say for fear of incriminating myself..

Brit,those rules are for which place?

Why.. Women already make the rules for us poor men ......

men need women for everything except peeing!

Eastern women don't have enough rights. Flat out plain and simple. Neither do Western women, but we have more then Eastern women and it's important to help ALL women get the same rights as men.

ummjake said, "...the need for the empowerment and protection of women worldwide as a main means to eradicating poverty and extremism around the globe."

Precisely. You know what the problem is with many men? Their ego and self-centredness.

Do you see the irony that it's Westerner women saying Eastern women DON'T have enough rights...

besides... who on this thread has said that women have enuff rights?

funny.

Discussing women's issues on QatarLiving is like being on Mad Men -- without the hats.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Does no one see the irony that it's MEN saying women have enough rights.

sure, there was a woman in computing, Ada Lovelace, without whose contribution it's questionable what course computing would have taken, let's remember, she was the first to notice that a computer could be used for more than mere number-crunching...but I guess that's where it ends, at least when it comes to big names and grounbreakers. You're more likely to find women in rocket science than in computing. Why the disparity...well of course I'm gonna come off sexist here and I'm ready, bring on the lame baseless bash, but most women would much rather strike a pretty pose and be in "marketing", or some secretarial jobs where they can "be pretty" and polish nails all day. I can't get those jobs, not that I would want to, but women get rewarded by society even when they have no appreciable skills while men, well men get hard manual labour.

Let's face it, society portrays the "computer geek" as the kid in the back of the classroom with jar-bottom glasses, the kind of guy no woman would want to be stuck with. A social pariah, and society somehow seems to matter way more to women than men.

the statistics you provided are for computer industry in general...

Bulk of that is PC's, laptops and PDAs even

However, that's the bottom of the food chain in the IT industry... its a commodity... Dell, Lenovo, Sony, Gateway, HP...

I am talking high tech... infrastructure, networking, enterprise, security, programming, product development, ERP... Microsoft, Cisco, IBM, CA, SAP the likes...

The guys from wired are talking at that level...

That source you are trying to diss on is wired... one of the most eminent magazines in the IT industry... please reconsider...

Its common sense... look around you... not many geeks are women...

women of mass destruction i say!!!! but geeez i love 'em.

Could it be that IT is simply in industry that women have CHOSEN not to enter, similar to logging or rail transportation??

Joks aside, the Bureau of Labor Statistics seems to differ markedly to the statistics you've provided above. Not sure where they came from, but they are rubbish.

According to your article, there are more women in oil and gas extraction (17% of total workforce) than network professionals.

Your statistics are at best specious.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat18.txt

Giving away money to charity does not mean he is above making a mistake

He is one of the leaders of an industry which has the worst sex ratio among its employers...

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2001/12/48733

IT in this article is referred to as the industry without women...

just 10% of network professionals are women... coming from that industry...

Here... read up this too...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/business/16digi.html

Coming from THIS industry.. Bill Gates should think twice before complaining about sex ratios ANYwhere...

What gives Bill Gates the right to talk about feminism.

Just because his foundation gave $41,000,000 in 2008 to Maternal, Newborn, & Child Health doesn't mean he cares about the status of women.

I guess the $2,800,000,000 disbursed in 2008 by his foundation doesn't really count for much in the view of some.

Gates's comment was spot on -- and the females in the audience that day acknowledged as much when they applauded his remark.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

it doesn't make the cut... from Bill Gates of all people... its now even worth the paper its written on... or the pixels they are displayed on...

from the article as an excerpt was because I found it amusing (not tragic like some of the other examples the authors profiled) and because it is relevant to the region of the world we all live in.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Women's right and not choosing to work are too different things.The first one is a human right issue ,the second one is a purely commercial issue.Poorer countries like India get commercialised very fast, even if the indian society doesn't give a damn about women's right.Richer countries will obviously have reluctance.I personally feel women in Qatar have more freedom and choices than women in India or Phillipines.The worst hit are the women of poor muslim countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan and I am sure people like Bill Gates will not even want to know about their existence (no market there).

Women's right and not choosing to work are too different things.The first one is a human right issue ,the second one is a purely commercial issue.Poorer countries like India get commercialised very fast, even if the people don't give a damn about women's right.Richer countries will obviously have reluctance.I personally feel women in Qatar Bill Gates will not even want to know about their existence (no market there).

ashwindoke..

What a pleasant surprise that you agree with me..thanx :)

mmyke..

I have relatives and friends in Saudi Arabia who are not Al-Sauds, but ordinary ppl. I can say on a scale of 10 I'd give KSA 7-8 which is not bad.

Herd mentality describes how people are influenced by their peers to adopt certain behaviors, follow trends, and/or purchase items.

Fubar... I don't know why you are so eager to associate herd mentality with sheep... I think you eagerness is born out of your desire to equate Saudi women with animals...

My wife grew up in Saudi... she is a practicing Doctor in Doha... even now she prefers to return to Saudi at the drop of a hat...

I have a nonMuslim friend who grew up in Saudi and then she moved to the US after her education... Even now she rues having specialized in a field which does not have scope in the Gulf even though her family is no longer based in Saudi... cos she liked being in Saudi...

Get over your preconceptions and bias... talk to people other than Westerners... Learn to differentiate real journalism from the trash that gets served up by the likes of huffingtonpost...

Ummjake said,"and indeed every region around the world -- certainly have issues of institutionalized gender inequality that need to be addressed."

I thot you were more concerned about Gulf countries in particular the way you picked out the Saudi example... of all the examples mentioned in the article... anyway...

I was just curious since I've never lived there.

I was posting about womens' asset ownership and its societal benefits, but someone brought up Saudi again, so don't blame me!

I answer to your question, yes,Kingdom Mall in Riyadh has females serving in a linegerie store and also female changing rooms.

Are we getting into a Saudi bashing thing now, or shall we go back to the topic :O)

How progressive.

I just can't imagine buying underwear without trying it on because changing rooms for women are illegal.

Do they allow changing rooms for men in Saudi?

This is indeed a strange thing about Saudi. However, some shops have already started employing females in clothes shops. Long way to go though.

This made me chuckle:

Saudi Women Boycott Lingerie Shops Until They Start Employing Women

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/25/saudi-women-boycott-linge_n_179229.html

Many Saudi females would probably not be given permission to attend a gathering like the one Bill Gates spoke at. ;-)

Look, nobody is saying that Saudi women are dying to throw off their abayas, move to Redmond, WA and become IT engineers for Mr. Gates.

I think their applause indicates that many of the (presumably) more modern, educated women in Saudi feel as if they are marginalized in their own country and afforded fewer opportunities -- when they are actually ambitious and hungry for more.

And veris -- I am not trying to equate third world African countries with the Gulf states. But both regions -- and indeed every region around the world -- certainly have issues of institutionalized gender inequality that need to be addressed.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Total? No, of course not.

They were just the women whose shepards were kind enough to let them out for the day to mix with the other sheep.

Of course. Herd mentality.

Women are farm animals who behave like sheep.

They also lack the critical thinking to deeply analyse what Mr Gates was saying.

And obviously they also lack self-awareness of their own environment.

Now we understand why they should be kept penned up in the home and just let out occassionally to graze.

"The small group on the right erupted in wild cheering."

So this small group is a valid representation of the total Saudi females ?

I think not.

herd mentality...

Since it was the women in the room with Bill Gates who were applauding, and not foreigner critical of womens' rights in Saudi, perhaps you might like to offer some explanation for their "wild cheering".

Why do you suppose the women "cheered wildly" when he made this statement?

Perhaps it was because these women are happy with their lives?

Perhaps it was because these women are satisified with their job prospects?

People can pontificate all they like from abroad saying that the Saudi women may not have the same rights and opportunities as western women, but deep down they don't mind and they are happy.

But does that honestly seem reasonable when it is the Saudi women who "cheered wildly" at Gates' comment?

Clearly they are NOT happy.

Ummjake... I agree with you with all of that you said...

Ummjake said...

"But empowering women DOES indeed affect other, broader societal issues, because there is a domino effect. When women are empowered and protected, they take better care of their family. When that happens, children are better fed and educated...and that in turn leads to many more positive outcomes for all of society: fewer people living below poverty, lower rates of infant mortality, higher literacy levels for both girls and boys, etc..."

But lets put things in context...

all these things you have mentioned...

fewer people living below poverty, lower rates of infant mortality, higher literacy levels for both girls and boys, etc... are afflictions of poor countries or the poor who live in rich countries... i.e. this is a panacea for women who are oppressed, illiterate, struggling for survival... I wouldn't equate this with the crowd that was attending Bill Gate's talk for instance...

Exactly, Ummjake. Educating and empowering women is a great bottom-up approach for dragging societies out of poverty, and there is no shortage of evidence suggesting this. As just a single example of the many studies:

"Many prior studies find significant cross-sectional positive ordinary least squares (OLS) associations between maternal human capital (usually maternal schooling attainment) and children's human capital (usually children's schooling, but in some cases children's nutritional status). This paper uses rich Guatemalan longitudinal data collected over 35 years to explore several limitations of these “standard” estimates. The preferred estimates developed herein suggest that (1) maternal human capital is more important than suggested by the standard estimates; (2) maternal cognitive skills have a greater impact than maternal schooling attainment on children's biological human capital; and (3) for some important indicators of children's human capital, maternal biological capital has larger effect sizes than maternal intellectual capital (schooling and cognitive skills).

***These results imply that breaking the intergenerational transmission of poverty, malnutrition, and intellectual deprivation through investments in women's human capital may be more effective than previously suggested, but it will require approaches that account for dimensions of women's human capital beyond just their schooling.***

Effective interventions to improve women's biological and intellectual human capital often begin in utero or in early childhood; thus, their realization will take longer than if more schooling were the only relevant channel.

http://ideas.repec.org/p/fpr/ifprid/850.html

But empowering women DOES indeed affect other, broader societal issues, because there is a domino effect. When women are empowered and protected, they take better care of their family. When that happens, children are better fed and educated...and that in turn leads to many more positive outcomes for all of society: fewer people living below poverty, lower rates of infant mortality, higher literacy levels for both girls and boys, etc...

I don't mean to frame this as a competition between the sexes, but for so long in many cultures and countries the men have had control of pretty much everything. Studies have shown that when women are given increasing control and power to earn their own money and make decisions about their and their familiy's lives, things improve.

Do you seriously think that the lack of women in positions of power and authority in many countries is because they personally choose not to pursure these paths? I would offer up that it is because they have been systematically disenfranchised -- by their culture, by their families, by their religious traditions, and by men -- who deem an empowered woman as being unseemly and inappropriate.

I have absolutely no problem with women (or men) staying home to raise their kids. There is no tougher or more important job than to raise your children well. But I also do not look down upon those people who are working parents. For many, working is a necessity if they are to take decent care of their families.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

I would tend to agree. My father used to hand his weekly wage over to my mother and get "pocket money'..

She was much better at managing money than he was.. And she did a great job..

Mind you that was before the days of Vogue and designer handbags costing thousands :O)

Ummjake, as you say:

"Time and time again, it has been shown that when men control the purse strings, they tend to NOT spend as much on the family's well-being as the woman/mother would. The stats in this article simply bear that out once more."

For anyone still doubting the truth of that simple statement, there is a large body of research compiled by NGOs and humanitarian groups that agree with this.

And if you want to look at statistics that involve families, here is a nice simple link for you:

http://csd.wustl.edu/Publications/Documents/WP07-28.pdf

The simple truth is that when women own or control assets within a family, health, social, educational and developmental goals are reached faster than when compared to a control group where women are excluded.

It's a simple fact that isn't in dispute.

If your point is that men tend to spend less on the family... lets take it and analyze that...

Firstly, I'd like to emphasize the importance of looking at the family as a whole... a husband AND wife rather than as individuals... a man and a woman in isolation... I would much rather that we looked at statistics that look at families... not just the women...

Secondly, we have to look at the broader picture... how to educate the society on evils such as drinking, drugs rather than looking at empowering women alone... Oppressed women should be empowered, no doubt... but I do not see empowering women as a means of addressing the challenges of society as a whole. It is more a means of addressing the challenge of oppressed women...

I am sorry, but the tone of your posts sometimes drift towards the futility of men in society... "Many men repeatedly demonstrate that they would rather spend selfishly than on their families"... I object to that... not because I am a male, but because I believe both men AND women have a role to play... it is not a competition between one and the other...

As for your comment on women's role in societies... I think women should be empowered to pursue dreams of theirs... but the fact that they don't choose to do so cannot be perceived as a lack of progress...

If they decide to invest in their own families and their children within the four walls of their houses... there is just no shame in that... It is as much a matter of pride if not more for a woman to bring up her children with all her love... as it is to achieve professional glory...

You tend to focus on the negatives in society... at extremes... you say look at Saudi... why?... that's across the border... let's look around us... you talk of honour killings, sexual abuse and female circumcision... why so much focus on the negatives... can you name any society in the world that does not have problems?

.

involving women holding assets. Time and time again, it has been shown that when men control the purse strings, they tend to NOT spend as much on the family's well-being as the woman/mother would. The stats in this article simply bear that out once more.

It's not about having more disposable income. It's about feeding your children instead of buy a few packages of cigarettes. It's about sending them to school instead of drinking down at the bar on the weekend. Many men repeatedly demonstrate that they would rather spend selfishly than on their families.

I don't disagree that there are a lot of happy families and females here in the Gulf. Clearly there are, and it's kind of hard to equate the situation and conditions here to those in Cote D'Ivoire or some other poor nation. But I think in general we can talk about empowering women here in the Gulf and providing them the same opportunities as men have. In the many years I have lived in Qatar, I have known of honor killings, women who were denied the chance to study or work, girls who were routinely sexually abused by family members....so as in any country, there is room for improvement.

Your comment about Bill Gates, while probably accurate, misses the mark I think. While there may not be a preponderance of women in the IT field, the larger issue Gates was commenting on to that audience in KSA is Saudi's failure to fully utilize their female citizens as a valuable and important resource. I don't know of any studies off the top of my head, but I would venture that stats there would show much the same as ones here in Qatar do: females outperform males in school and they have higher rates of matriculation. Bearing that in mind, it seems rather idiotic to NOT be making the most of the fact that one's country is rich with such capable, ambitious people.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

lots of interesting stuff to read...

About the statistics... "when women hold assets or gain incomes, family money is more likely to be spent on nutrition, medicine and housing, and consequently children are healthier..."

I wouldn't read too much in to that... if we are talking about a really poor family, it just means the family has more disposable income. It also means that since the wife is employed, she is probably educated and likely her partner too is probably well educated. So we cannot look at that in isolation...

As for Bill Gate's comment, I can't really equate that to the New York Times article because that article is mostly talking about poorer countries whereas Gates is talking about being a Top 10 Tech country.

His comment may have sparked loud applause from the feminists in the crowd... But I assure you that at the back of his mind would have been the male to female ratio in the IT industry... not too encouraging... So Gates may have appealed to the audience but he's being a hypocrite... if you don't agree... drive down to QSTP and count the number of ladies in the Microsoft office...

Qatar not good enuff... Do it in San Francisco... count the ladies doing Technical jobs... not administrative...

The New York Post article and the issues being discussed here are entirely different issues I am afraid...

This whole empowerment of the females being pushed by the feminists on the thread... I am sorry, I don't buy it... might make sense in the poorest of poor countries... poverty brings out the worst in people... But here in Gulf I see lots of happy families here among Qatari families... I don't see a cause for concern... there might be exceptions... but aren't there always...

any single religion. In fact, it is quite common for most religions to be "interpreted" in a manner that often places women at a disadvantage to men, and as second class citizens.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Brite - I second you... with reference to Hindu scriptures too......

there are shloks in which women are down graded like anything....

one of it says.. the only way you can teach women is by beating them... :) (Taden ke adhikari :).. thts Hindi :))

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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it

I think that PM is referring to the people who use selected parts of the scriptures to suppress or subjugate women..

For Instance, Corinthians 14:34-35,37 — "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. "

Meaning , Women are to look for input and leadership from the man.

doe sanyone want to give to a collection that can be donated to a micro-lending agency?

I am game for this..

any takers??

say 100 QR as a starter??

Dashinwhite - I thought I was the only one who found Abaya sexy.... :) welcome to the group mate...

Women - ?????

Since when and where.. did the rights where given out rational thinking.... and when asked for them ????

You think you ll do better... Do it...

rights are to be snatched... not begged or asked for.

Dirty world....

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Men will wrangle for religion, write for it, fight for it, die for it, anything but live for it

As someone who is new to the Middle East I am still surprised to see so many Qatari women and girls wearing these traditional black robes that reveal nothing except eyes (even they are sometimes invisible). I can appreciate a certain female sartorial modesty, but being so completely covered-up makes me wonder what's behind it (pardon the pun). What is the origins and history of this?

PM "especially if the subjugation comes in the form of someone telling her it is demanded of her by her religion"

Would you please clarify this statement?

:)

I agree with you..

Women need to feel that they have the rights and the choices that men have. After that its up to them.

It's similar to men who've spent a long period of time in prison or as slaves. They start to fear freedom because they've adjusted and accepted life without it, to suddenly give them there freedom would be too much for them to handle.

situation when they don't think anything will change and accept it as their lot in life or cross to bear. When I first came to Qatar many women I came into contact with didn't really think their education was important because they said their families wouldn't allow them to work and make their own decisions, so what did it matter? I can't count all the times I have heard young Qatari women say that nothing would ever change here; but it HAS changed and within the past 4-5 years I have never heard that same statement applied to working (other things, yes; but not working).

I think if a woman has been subjugated her whole life and she doesn't think anything will change (especially if the subjugation comes in the form of someone telling her it is demanded of her by her religion), common sense will tell you that most will try to content themselves.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Sounds similar to stories about condoms in Africa.

what else?

lol

Funny story about iodize salt which highlights ignorance and illiteracy..

A few years ago, the government in Pakistan launched a program to iodize salt..

Some Mullahs spread the rumour that the government was adding "birth control" chemicals to the salt in order to control the population. Ofcourse many women refused to buy iodized salt..

Yes, the problem is much larger .. and it might happen in different countries, not only in poor ones.

.. in some countries, religion or society don’t understand the wish of a woman to escape from her husband and don’t allow her to have choice, then it becomes a real problem for her .. “no exit” problem with the only option to go deeper and deeper in sacrificing of her husband, she is living then bearing her cross.

Contemporary feminism is : a woman must have choice

.. work, or not to work

.. be married, or stay single

.. and even to give birth, or not to give.

Education is a first step to give such choice to a woman.

It was interesting to read about the iodine. I had no idea it had such a detrimental effect on women.

Yes I did read the whole article..

The discussion got askewed because you chose to highlight Bill Gates' comments and Saudi Arabia in the main post, whereas this is quite minor compared to the whole.

As far as the article goes, yes I agree. Women need to be protected and empowered. The micro finance scheme has been a great hit in Bangladesh for many many years.

i was disappointed that the article focused on a certain region whereas these issues need to be addressed in many countries of South America and Europe also.

that you merely read what is identified as an excerpt and that you don't bother to actually read the source article in its entirety when a link is provided.

I guess you don't even like to read the surrounding words, because I thought it was pretty clear when I used phrases like "women worldwide" that this wasn't a story solely about KSA.

I guess I should have cut and pasted the entire 7 page article if I had wanted some substantive comments from you, huh?

Good to know critical thinking and reading skills are alive and well here on QatarLiving!

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Did anyone actually read the article?? In 7 pages there was a small piece about Saudi. Jeez folks. Read it. It's actually a really interesting piece. This was my favourite section:

"If poor families spent only as much on educating their children as they do on beer and prostitutes, there would be a breakthrough in the prospects of poor countries."

This is where the discuss the different spending habits of men and women, when women are given control of the finances in developing countries the money goes to food, education and health care. When men control it it goes to beer and prostitutes.

"Bill Gates recalls once being invited to speak in Saudi Arabia and finding himself facing a segregated audience. Four-fifths of the listeners were men, on the left. The remaining one-fifth were women, all covered in black cloaks and veils, on the right. A partition separated the two groups. Toward the end, in the question-and-answer session, a member of the audience noted that Saudi Arabia aimed to be one of the Top 10 countries in the world in technology by 2010 and asked if that was realistic. “Well, if you’re not fully utilizing half the talent in the country,” Gates said, “you’re not going to get too close to the Top 10.” The small group on the right erupted in wild cheering."

put the focus on Saudi?

Did you guys even read the article that this thread included (as a link) and was intended to promote?

My guess is not. You probably just read one of the two "favorite quotes" that I excerpted, and started off, like so many others on here.

PLEASE read the freaking article if you're going to comment on this thread. The VAST majority of it is NOT about the Gulf or the Arab world. It is about the predicament of women GLOBALLY.

It is NOT about whether Saudi women can drive or work in lingerie stores. It is about sexual exploitation, physical abuse and torture, economic oppression, denial of educational opportunities, etc.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Don't confuse women's rights with weather the women concerned want to exercise those rights or not...sure there will be loads of Saudi women content with not having to drive/having to work etc...but the point here is do they have a choice?...The issue here is about giving Saudi women the right to work or drive & then of course,as in the rest of the real world,the ones that want to/have to will & the ones that don't want to/have to won't...simple

Yes, we should focus on the women you mention. Howeve , your thread was the one that put the focus on Saudi :O)

Di must have been a masochist, have you seen Dodi?

Fubar, just because these Saudi women can't work as sales ladies (which is what someone mentioned earlier, although I can't begin to fathom why a university graduate would be interested in such a profession) are you saying that in Saudi women arent allowed to work period?

Again, I ask as I did earlier and no one answered, why is the Western world so preoccupied with the Muslim world? Why this urge to empower and free the helpless poor women of Saudi Arabia when there are women , children and families whom not only don't work but they don't have the bare necessities to a decent life nor the assurance of where their next meal is coming from?

Seriously people go save a cause worth saving and quit eyeing the oil rich or justify the war on Afganistan

"Dianas life wasnt her own or so she ranted constantly, yet she wasnt Saudi"

Good point.

Diana felt her life while married to Charles was controlled by 'the establishment' (as she called it). So she divorced Charles, and went off and enjoyed life with Dodi on the French Riveria.

And that's exactly my point.

If women don't want/need to work, good. They can enjoy their life. However I don't see why any country should mandate that women CANNOT work, even if they want/need to. Surely women (even Gulf women) possess the ability to chose their own destiny???

That's a whole other bag of tricks. Customs, traditions, isolation...30 years of constant war and strife, not to mention an organized assault of brainwashing and social change conducted by "muslim brethren with big money & big piety"...it's amazing they still know how to bake bread!

I don't follow your structure of argument. You never mentioned gang rape victims or the kids sold into marriage to settle outstanding debt. That has little next to nothing to do with freedom of education, circumcision, freedom of choice in marriage, freedom in employment and enterprise...Why? Because the former are exceptions, the latter societal rules. There's sickos, deviants, illiterates everywhere. The degree of their waywardness is sadly only correspondent to their lack of education and enlightenment. I agree, there's still a long ways to go for much of the muslim world, and in some ways it's going backwards instead of forward, but dismissing the background of the "offenders" as irrelevant is a little short-sighted in my opinion. You have to understand some of these parts were not really paragons of civilization, not in the 50s or 60s before oil was discovered, not ever. There's areas that have seen hundreds if not thousands of years of governmental neglect, under several dynasties. "Islamic civilization" on the whole never had much to do with the desert. It immediately packed up and sought greener pastures... the Damascuses, Baghdads, Istanbuls of this world...As for people that give off children to settle debts, gangrapists, wifebeaters, there's jails and nooses, and I agree, police and most importantly the courts, should be a lot more proactive in pursuing the highest forms of punishment for these lunatics.

Again, this isn't about the bored housewives of Jeddah who are kept in a gilded cage.

It's about the women who were violently gang raped in their country's civil war, and now are "tainted" women, disowned by family and community, who have no way to support themselves.

It's about the poor girl sold by her ignorant father into marriage to a man 50 years her senior to settle a family debt, who is then beaten so violently on a regular basis that she miscarries three times before her 14th birthday.

Please don't lecture about "different cultures have different values" when THIS is what we're talking about.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

To each his own.. Yes, women need to be given the option to choose. However, we also needto recognize that different cultures may have diferent values.

I know three couples who left Saudi Arabia for Dubai and came back within a year because the women preferred the lifestyle in Saudi where theydidn't need to drive or go about for chores.

I also know two couple who left Riyadh for the Gulf and didn't want to come back..

To be educated the same as men -> except for Afghanistan, they have the same rights everywhere! As for their parents not allowing them, well that's backward folk, and those exist everywhere. Look at puritans and the Amish in the USA. Why doesn't anyone preach liberalism to them?

To choose their marriage partner -> It's women who perpetuate the system. It is usually the mothers that agree marriages among themselves. Dad's got little to do with it. In most cases dad don't give a damn. If the kids are happy he's happy too.

to NOT have their clitoris cut off -> According to all recognized schools of muslim jurisprudence (Fiqh), female circumcision is a sin, a crime. Some folk traditions prevail despite Islam. In fact, a muslim husband is bound by Islamic law to please his wives as they are bound to please him. Otherwise the validity of marriage can rightfully be brought into question. I'd like to hear of that guy that can please four wives that are all circumcised. Now that would be a "sex hero".

To start a business or work to support their family -> Many do. Many are quite skilled too! Those that don't, well either they had paranoid parents or husbands (my condolences), or they just don't want to.

to not live in fear of their father/brother/husband beating them or killing them out of some antiquated tradition of "family honor"-> I will agree here. Honour killings are pathetic. If a woman transgresses and shames the family, you can always disown her, send her to some liberal land where she can live out the life she desires, without tainting the rest of the family. No need to kill someone because they are different. However, again, look at Kuwait. Women here are no angels. 43 people burned and stomped to death, ex-wife shoots her successor, things like this happen...

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Different strokes for different folks. For every person that wants to work there are two that would rather not if they don't have to. As in the west, so in the east. Lots of women work in Qatar, much more so than in many poorer muslim countries. Look at all the hospitals, government "counters"...Mainly women behind the desk. The fact they mainly do low-level administrative tasks, well they obviously like the decent-pay, low-responsibility package. I don't blame them. If your society coerces your husband to be the breadwinner, and the money you earn is literally all yours...why not?

Western women (read: feminists) complain constantly about how their fellow women in the muslim world are second class citizens, this only shows their misconception of the prevalent muslim domestic hierarchy. I agree though, Afghanistan is quite the disaster of women's rights, and I know little about Saudi so I refuse to comment, but in the other countries of the gulf, like in most other muslim societies, momma always has the last word! On everything! As we've seen lately in Kuwait, muslim women take some rather absurd "liberties" too. In the muslim world, if you're a boy, and you get into trouble or do something silly, be prepared for heavy physical punishment. If you're a girl, you'll get some stiff talk and that's it. Mom chooses who you'll mary, mom decides where you're going on holiday, regardless of how much money she makes or how much she contributes to the family. And the men, well the men flee. To the sheesha parlour or if they're of enterpreneurial spirit, to their second job (you'd be surprised how many gulf locals juggle three or more ventures). Mainly to avoid the constant demands and that activity beloved to all women and abhorred by all men...SHOPPING!

swing around a pole and collect twenty dollar bills in their tangas.

We're talking about the right for girls/women:

to be educated the same as men

to choose their marriage partner

to NOT have their clitoris cut off

to start a business or work to support their family

to not live in fear of their father/brother/husband beating them or killing them out of some antiquated tradition of "family honor"

While I have no doubt that some women in the Gulf are quite happy with their lives, wouldn't it be nice if they had a choice about what kind of life they wanted, instead of it being forced upon them?

Wouldn't it be nice if they were afforded the same rights and protections under the law as men were?

This isn't meant to be a Khaleeji-bashing thread, guys. The focus is on women GLOBALLY, and the Gulf is but one region where women's rights have been compromised.

Talk about sub-Saharan Africa where female genital mutilation is the standard, not the exception.

Consider the thousands of women and children forced into the sex trade in Asia.

But don't belittle this topic by transforming it into yet another tit-for-tat, mud-slinging "Arabs-vs-westerners" diatribe.

Please.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

fubars "My mother taught English in Saudi, and she left Riyadh an unhappy woman, bitter after meeting so many intelligent, sharp witted young women who knew that their lives were not their own"

Dianas life wasnt her own or so she ranted constantly, yet she wasnt Saudi

"My mother taught English in Saudi, and she left Riyadh an unhappy woman, bitter after meeting so many intelligent, sharp witted young women who knew that their lives were not their own."

sometimes when we saw one woman with regrets and grievances we thought that it represent all. so in most comment we sensationalize this one. but the fact is, more women in saudi arabia doesnt like the idea of freedom of other women in other countries. they are content of their uniqueness to others. those minority report like of riyadh girls never represent the whole women of that country.

it is natural that in every country in the whole world there are women incline towards something which is not common in their country, like for example women in california love to stay under the sun wearing tanga, or women in europe lying naked in the naked beach. women in chicago live and die working alone to feed her kids born out of wedlock, or just seperated from her husband. or a woman in manila working as an exotic dancer in a club to support her siblings. these are the typical women who struggle for their survival. surely there are some minority in arab country who love to do the same. but to say most women like it but they are deprive and controled of it is not a fact supported idea. it is a big shame on the part of you who claim that it is so..

some people think that if they are enjoying something they thought that others must do the same with them. but the fact is,for some people the good thing for him might bad for others.

in the end, if we measure the advantages and disadvantages of it you will find a staggering difference. the country who boast of enjoying the freedom, liberties and individual rights are most affected by antisocial problems. high rate of bastard child, single mother, prostitutes, aids carrier, drugs, gangster, and all that you can name.

"Neither men nor women can vote and yes there are women in lower legislative positions. "

Ummm

Men - and not women - voted in the 2005 municipal elections. The 2009 elections have been postponed until 2011 pending a review to examine the possibility of allowing women to vote.

Who are these women in lower legislative positions you refer to?

And what good is it talking about GDP per capita? That's just a measure of government income per person. It clearly doesn't correlate to how much actual income the average person actually attains. If the GDP per capita stats were anything to go by, the AVERAGE person in Qatar would be earning something like 35,000QAR per month. Clearly not the case.

Saudi Arabia is in position 58 (US $ 20.700, according to the CIA Factbook 2009), brit. Kuwait is 5, Qatar is 2, only after Liechtenstein (118.000 US $ GDP per capita).

i read it is qatar who is number 2 in the world with the highest GDP. i dont think if it is true.

But, aren't Saudi, Kuwait and Qatar in or near the top ten richest countries in the world ?

Literacy rate in Afghanistan (Taleban Land) women: 12%, men 48 %. (Source: CIA World Factbook 2009)

I think the original point was if you don't allow fully 50% of your population to utilize their ability, capability, creativity, education and willingness to contribute to society as a whole - how can you expect to be in the top 10 of anything?

The Aga Khan Foundation takes the view that educating women will lead to education for the entire family (girls and boys) whereas if you educate only the men, they will encourage only the education of their sons.

As a case in point, look at the Taliban and their views on education for females - how's that working for the women in areas where this particular group dominates?

Signature line > "You can't fix stupid"

Neither men nor women can vote and yes there are women in lower legislative positions.

Women aren't forced to work in most countries, but I'm sure they appreciate the choice.

Or maybe the 25% of women who are unemployed (70% of whom are college educated) are content.

I just won't patronize them by assuming that I know best.

If woment don't want or need to work, good for them. If the powers that be in Saudi are so convinced of this then there would be no need to create legislation preventing them from working, driving, voting, standing for election, being appointed to legislative positions, or mixing with men.

My mother taught English in Saudi, and she left Riyadh an unhappy woman, bitter after meeting so many intelligent, sharp witted young women who knew that their lives were not their own.

I don't know about Qatar, I can only speak from my own experience. However, having lived in both countries, I prefer Qatar - It is more progressive, yet retains the cultural aspects.

Britexpat, would you also say the same for Qatar?

No , it doesn't really. These people have the ability to stand up for their rights if they so wish.

I have lived in Saudi and most people were quite happy with a benevelant Monarchy.

As the world increasingly becomes globalized, it DOES matter what other countries do internally.

The US sends gazillions of dollars in aid every year to a variety of countries -- and yet what do we see for this investment? Are those countries' citizens any better off? Are their women better educated? Are terrorist groups there less active? Are their farms and manufacturing plants more productive? Are their citizens free to speak out against their government, practice whatever religion they choose, vote for and enact real change?

These kinds of issues should concern us all.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

You are missing one variable..Perhaps , many women in these countries are happy with their lot and don't want to work.

I should have done my homework.

In the 2008 World Economic Forum "Global Gender Gap" report, Saudi managed to be number 128 out of 130 nations, beating both Chad and Yemen!!

Out of interest, here are the GCC scores:

Kuwait: 101

UAE: 105

Oman: 118

Qatar: 119

Bahrain: 121

Saudi Arabia: 128

http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gendergap/report2008.pdf

Why is it that the western world is increasingly preoccuping itself with internal affairs of Oil rich countries? Why not pester China or solve Africa's problems?

do an internet searc "list oppressive countries" and report back to this thread if you'd like,,,

thx.

to occupy ourselves with, QL! But what are those "more comfortable and content" nations you speak of? I know my country shoves its nose into lots of other people's business, but most of those places I wouldn't describe as being "more comfortable and content" than the USA.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

minds...........

so QL, where would you place Saudi culture on a scale of 1 to 10 for its overall "goodness" ....?

I realize that this is a very, very subjective term, but I am interested in where you would place it...

To My Utter surprise.....

I would support QL here...

Women are descriminated everywhere..... scales vary...

___________________________________________

Man created religion ..not GOD... get over it guys...- FS

where, on a scale of 1 to 10, would you place Saudi culture for overall "goodness" for all its people?

To give you some idea of the opposition to women working in Saudi:

Labor Minister Ghazi al-Ghusaibi issued a regulation last year [2006] requiring women, and not men, to work in lingerie shops. He couched the proposal in terms that would appeal to the religious hierarchy, arguing that salesmen holding up and discussing lacy undergarments with women was more likely to lead to sexual temptation than allowing women to work. But many Saudis say that his ultimate intention was to open up most retail jobs to women.

"The clerics knew this was the thin end of the wedge and defeated him," says one Saudi businessman in Riyadh, the capital. "They know that all these symbolic issues – women driving, working with men – will erode the foundations of their control." The Saudi Grand Mufti Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh described allowing women to work as leading to "hellfire" and Mr. Ghusaibi received a personal death threat from Osama bin Laden for his trouble.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0424/p01s04-wome.html?page=2

The profundity of Bill's comment lies in the use of the word FULLY:

“Well, if you’re not FULLY utilizing half the talent in the country,” Gates said, “you’re not going to get too close to the Top 10.”

Less than 10% of the Saudi workforce is female, although over 50% of college graduates are women. That ain't right.

Saudi ranks lowest out of 128 – in terms of female “labour force participation” – by the 2007 World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Report.

I'm yet to see Americans using their intellect and creativity to solve their internal crises before wasting their time and energy on other more comfortable and content nations!

Strange thing about Saudi Arabia.. I recall reading somewhere that women actually own about 30% of the wealth..

Bill Gates' theory is slightly askew because women are working and participating in society..