Shame

MIssX.... Thanks a ton.... :)

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Ok here's the summary.

I stipulated that there is shame associated with sex, and that if there was no shame, then paying for sex, or accepting money for sex would not be looked upon as something disdainful. And if paying for sex, or accepting money for sex was no longer a disreputable activity, then more people would do it.

I think most people agreed that there is shame associated with sex, principally created and encouraged by religion, and subsequently adopted into modern day convention.

The first disagreement developed on whether it was the shame concerning sex that was causing prostitution to be a dishonourable job, or whether the dishonour came from the violation of an emotionally bonding activity, and thus even if the shame was removed, society would still not accept prostitution as a valid service.

The second disagreement came into play when the argument of whether sex is truly an emotional bonding activity was put forward. I, and others maintained that the bonding emotion does not have to exist, and only does if the people involved create one through their own preconceived notions. The opposing argument is that there is an emotionally charged bond, whether you want one or not, and it is this union that is being violated when people have sex for money.

And that is where we have come to a stand still. Some people believe sex is an emotional activity regardless of whether you think it is not. And some people believe sex is not an emotional activity regardless of whether you think it is, but can be however, if you choose to attach meaning to it.

Are we heading anywhere with this discussion....

after every 15 - 20 posts I feel we are back to sq. one...

Where have we reached after150 posts???

MissX pls Brief....

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You are absolutely right about wanting to talk more openly in this topic Stone. I have purposely not mentioned several things that I would like to, for fear of judgement.

Damn this shame, it's everywhere!! lol

Its like this....most of you guys seems want to talk about sex more openly, but the limitation prevents, for example, like in this open forum. Thats where the problem is and will ever is. Admmitedly, we are all ashame. Tell me how many of you are willing to walk the street naked versus how many will appreciate to accept the fact of life ..or to condemmed that this is insane and not allowed in any religion? In any human progress dilemma, its like taking one step forward, and two steps backward....cheers

I don't want to disappoint you, Gypsy, but I had sex just to satisfy my 'hunting' instinct. If you call that 'emotion', well...

I'm not saying it's a lasting bond, or even a bond that makes you want to see the other person again, I'm just saying the acknowledgement of the act is there.

I think the bond exists whether you want it or no.

I think if you have sex looking for a bond, then you will believe there is one there when you have it.

At the same time if you have sex and are not looking for a bond, then no bond will develop for you.

I think a lot of woman have trouble not looking for a bond when they have sex, which is why this expression developed

"women use sex for love, and men use love for sex"

Well not to comment on the length of your one night stands MissX :P but a bond is a bond, you create it many ways. Through spending time with someone, sex, sleeping (without sex) etc.

I think their are men and woman today who can experience emotionless sex, but I think they are the exception not the rule and it's more then likely linked to psychological issues regarding sex, drug use, poverty, etc.

Some want it like this, Gypsy. And they have Web Sites. And they like to tell you that there is a 'Neanderthal' in each of us, especially in those who are sexually very active. If you believe it, ok.

I read that there was evidence that the Cro Magans and Neanderthals existed together in Southern France/Spain and Portugal. There's even evidence we mated. There are also paintings, tools, bowls etc, created by them. They were a social creature as well.

As a fact there was almost no contact between us, Cro Magnon, and the Neanderthal men, Gypsy. But according to the left overs of Cro Magnon (considered to be the 'modern' homo sapiens sapiens) there is 'emotinal' stuff, like paintings, etc. Neanderthals and Cro Magnon have not killed each other.

I would think about the person as often as I would had I done any activity with a person for the same period of time. It's not the act itself that created a memory of that person, but the time spent in a close venture. And I'm saying this with a bit of societal pressure about it being wrong, or morally corrupt. Imagine if that didn't exist.

They existed for over a million years and died off mostly because we, homo sapiens, killed them off, not because of a lack of emotions.

You can't invent emotions, you can invent things to associate emotions too, but you can't invent emotions, they are a natural chemical condition of the human body.

Animals even have emotions, and the more intelligent they are the more obvious it is.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting MD, that we ignore our natural instincts and emotion...in favour of what?

Neanderthals, for example.

What human kinds haven't survived?

It would be better if you could control your emotions than the other way around, gypsy. Don't let those chemicals bring you down. Be strong! It's only an illusion in the brain.

Emotions are many things, and yes mostly chemical, but they do to a large extent control our actions, and while Hollywood and long before that plays, books, myths, etc have galmourized certain emotions like love, they couldn't do it if those emotions didn't exist.

Well we have, gypsy. And that is because we 'invented' morals to guarantee the survival. The fact that many human kinds have not survived proves that they had not developed the control mechanisms that you call 'emotions'.

So MissX are you saying that if you have sex with someone, you could get up, leave and never ever think about that person again? Or not acknowledge them if you see them again or recognize them?

Emotions are the result of the release of certain substances into your brain. Nothing more. But Hollywood made more out of it. Why?

I disagree, I think jealousy is an ingrained emotion. There is jealousy in such societies in many different forms, not just jealousy because the person you love is sleeping with someone else that night.

It's how we respond to jealousy that's taught. People in those societies are taught that it's not ok to be angry or jealous if someone else is sleeping with the person they love, whereas in our society we are taught it's ok, and in some cases you're even allowed to kill the person.

And I did mention polygamy. Polygamy and Monogamy both involve being dedicated to one or more people, and not just up and leaving them. In both cases these people are dedicated to raising children together. Not just the guy coming in, screwing the girl and leaving her never to be seen again. That's not how humans work naturally. If it was we never would have lasted past the ice age.

I thought we had clarified earlier that the emotion that occurs during sex, the one that is the important factor on deciding whether someone could accept payment for it, was an emotion that signifies a bond. I agreed there are emotions like happiness etc because it can be a pleasurable experience.

I would say someone who's had emotionless sex is someone who doesn't quite understand emotion. Whether it's shame, joy, boredom, love, like, etc. You WILL feel something during sex, pleasure in itself is an emotion.

Even during a one night stand there are emotions involved.

with you.....MD, Gypsy and MissX...

Shame is a human-moral...at the same time, we follow religious book..which is much more in detail and taught us how we shall behave in a society.

FYI....on the day of judgment, we all would be nudes and under such stressful situation, we will not even realise that we were missing clothes.....

Humans are not jealous by nature! They learn jealousy.

go go go

Polygamy existed as long as human beings exist, gypsy. There is no need for a family if the society takes care of the offspring. There still are societies in the Polynesian circle where marriage and family don't exist. Jealousy is unknown, as well as personal property. I am sure that the 'romantic' ideas are an invention to 'control' society.

I think pretty much everyone agrees shame is not an inbuilt instinct. Left alone from birth, 2 babies would never even develop a concept of right and wrong, good and bad, let alone shame. It would merely be survival.

So Gypsy, does that mean you consider every person who claims to have had emotionless sex, either a liar, or someone unable to grasp their own feelings?

I think human monogamy has existed as long as human beings MD. Two people were better off against the elements then one, and it's easier to raise children in a two person environment. Humans are also by nature jealous, so monogamy in many ways, or at least polygamy in certain cases, makes sense.

Shame for being nude is a Jewish invention. Adam and Eve were not ashamed. But violating a rule made them "see", and from then on they were ashamed of their nudeness. Ergo: shame is a human moral, not a natural one. Sex is a biochemical event. Humans enjoyed it more or less, until one day social necessities forced societies to 'invent' monogamy. Again, nothing natural.

Don't you see that Shame is Natural/basic instinct, inbuilt in humans...

'Sex involves Emotions'

You are saying about Corporate culture, escort agents, yes it is there but this is absolutely unethical and exploitation of female sex and outside the boundaries of civilised society.

No shame isn't a basic instinct associated with sex, bonding is, but shame isn't.

This is why courtesans/geishas etc are more highly respected, because they do form bonds with their clients, that's the whole point. It's more then just sex, it's conversation, games, entertainment,etc.

Oh so when you said "below them" you meant on the hierarchy of prostitutes, rather than meaning 'within them'. I think I've gotten so used to bad English, that my brain auto corrects things to what I think the person is trying to say haha.

No geisha's were highly respected, even more so then wives in many cases.

The Dishonour came from the fact that they were considered to have no respect for themselves (for selling themselves so cheaply and so often) and because they were lazy.

Geisha were more then just prostitutes they were highly trained artisans. As are most courtesans and concubines, which is where the respect come froms, because you don't just want them for sex, but for company, entertainment, intelligent conversation, etc.

Gypsy, you said that even the 'higher level' prostitutes such as geisha's etc were not respected and forced to live outside of cities, and that this was not because of shame, but because it was considered dishonourable.

I have to ask then, what makes an act dishonourable?

Yes but if there's no shame associated with sex VB, wouldn't all that stuff be ok?

profession / Industry?

Even if religion won't be there then this would have been called "Forced Slavery" or voluntary "Flesh Industry for the sake of Fun and Money" or Unsocial Ethics or Mutual accomodation or Live in or Sex Training or Entertainment centres....so many names... what different it makes ITS BAD!!!

I personally don't think prositution would be anymore accepted even without religious ideas involving sex.

However I think we do need to seperate the "levels" of prostitution. If you look at courtseans or concubines, geisha's, high class escorts, etc. All of these women & men were technically prostitutes, yet they held respected positions and were respected in their society. But underneath these women/men was a lower level of prostitute who were not respected.

In Ancient Japan, sex was not considered shameful, whether with men or women, it was perfectly ok. Geisha's were highly respected women who maintained a great portion of Japanese arts and culture, and most if not all of these women were available for a price (though usually these were contracted agreements). However below them were actual prostitutes who men would visit for a night, shag and leave. These women were NOT respected and generally forced to the outsides of the city. This wasnt' because of shame of sex but because they were considered dishonourable.

VB the discussion is about if religion didn't exist, what would the view of prostitution be. So if there's no religion there's no "Haraam"

a big full stop......what is the point in explaining the causes and roots when we are not even suppose to think in that direction........we need to close the doors tightly which opens up on DAY 1.....

I watched the link....(great info and good to know...)

Major issue in the US and Western countries....(over 1m legalised uhf..) really concerned about their future and the future of next generation...

Even if we have different views abt them; these business females rquired to get rehab/generate other source of income to get accepted in the civilised society.

But many guyz these days in India Don accept Dowry..

It has become a COOL thing not to accept Dowry... :)

And even the Education & awareness level of the females has a major role to play in this change...

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PCG - In the early days.. Dowry was a gift given willingly by the Brides Parents to there daughter to start a new life...

The groom had no say on it.. She could use it the way she wanted to.....

but eventually it became a Compulsory thing...

Then took a Dirty face and is cause root of many social issues of Society.....

Jus like Initially you gave tips/gifts to driving instructors as per your wish and both enjoyed.. the trainee and the instructor...

Not they ask for it.. and the whole thing looks very ugly today.... :)

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I apologise, I thought that a dowry had to be paid.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

Here's a link to a tv show with a different perspective on prostitution.

You might need a proxy site to view it, as there is nudity, profanity etc. But worth watching though in my opinion.

http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/127511/detail/

That's make a sense if v go for sex with some emotion or feeling but for money i dont think so.....

sex within permissibility and outside the wedlock, shame and guilt.

What is the point in discussing so many adjectives...what is she trying to say, explain in short.

Yes, by definition, our religion / family or parental values plays a big role in defining the basic norms about sex and shame on an individual.

In certain countries, sex is accepted shamelessly; in freesex societies...prostitution-failure of society.

"shame" or "modesty" is one of the important branch of faith in Islam; for details check Islamonline websites.

Hmm, appears you have the stupidity it takes to not be able to seperate yourself from the ideaologies you grew up with Gypsy ;)

I guess we are in the same boat. What I grew up with is what my Mother and Father taught me and in no way feel I am stupid for following their moral standards.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

Frist off I don't think there is anything shameful or morally wrong with sex outside of wedlock, or even with being a prostitute. Women who become prostitutes usually do so out of neccessitty or because society as a whole as failed them. The only shame involved is the shame on the man or woman buying the prostitute for exploiting this person, especially if they have a family of their own at home.

I don't believe that in a world with no shame about sex prostitution would be shameful because of the sex, I think it would still be "shameful" or "demeaning" because of the act of accepting or offering the money. Sex isn't a "good" or "service" and even in a "shameless" society it shouldn't be because of the disease risk, etc attached to it.

Think about it, if ask, how many people give blood for money? Most people give blood because they want to and they know it helps people, not for money.

MR PAUL - You got the point but not me... my bloody luck...

Wht you say is wht I meant... The shame n Guilt factor shall be dependent on Society you live in....

When you share your view.. now we know wht is you have grown up seeing or accepting...

And About ARRANGE MARRIAGE - Pls do not pick up bad examples and generalize for all...

Arrange marriage is acceptance of each other not jus between two people... But two Families....

Hence it is more stronger and I prefer...

I do not wan to marry a Gal who jus wans to be my wife... or only my wife... but who can be a Daughter to my parents.. treat them n love them as much she does her actual parents...

Even I shall do the same... it is not taking there daughter away,, but being a SON for them....

m I hijacking the forum????

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Big sigh.

What I dont get is that in the beginning of the post we were talking about sex in general and MissX prompted us to see it from a prostitution standpoint with the analagy of deeming it like going to the hairdressers for a service. Now we should see past the prostitution and focus on sex?

Shame is not the only factor in people choosing not to have sex at will with random partners, nor is it the only motivation behind not prostituting themselves out. ____________________________________________________

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

Haven't read whole thread but a quick note on arranged marriages....

Arranged marriages are not arranged every night with stranger. It is the bond and is expected to stay long. The strangers once become partners for life. Giving or taking money may not be necessarily the part of arranged marriage. Mine is arranged one and without exchange of any money or say dowry.

While in case of prostitution it is not a bond.

Everything's gonna be alright!!!

"If you are having sex with a Guy you not married to... Shame creeps in..."

No, if you are having sex with someone yer not married to, there is no shame,you are both grown ups.

"Adulteration... is the word used for such act..... Tht results in Shame n Guilt..."

Again no. Adultery is commited if you ARE married,but having relations with someone else other than yer partner.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

I think Ashwindoke is starting to understand what I mean when he said this topic is beyond prostitution.

I am talking about shame associated with sex even in non-prostitution situations. As much as we probably don't like to think about it, there's always a subtle undertone that sex is something illicit, something dirty and something that people with loose morals partake in. It's a guilty pleasure knowing you are doing something naughty, and this can be true even when you are married. And this shame is the religious stigma I am referring to, not the stigma associated to prostitution.

So my original post was to encourage you to see beyond the shame associated with sex, and once you can do that, only then start to look at prostitution. But it seems a lot of you are commenting on prostitution with the stigma that sex is still a shameful act attached, rather than first dispelling the ideologies of it.

Can someone else encapsulate what I mean in a better way, I think people are having trouble understanding what I mean exactly?

:)

GN..

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.

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it's my time!

.

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You can't have a light without a dark to stick it in!

good night, ashwindoke! its midnight already..

Now read the previous post....

You make a Dead sleepy guy do so much of hard wrk...

who wrongly presumed only the question raised by you where a issue and other things where clear.....

b t w... you feeling guilty to keep a Sleepy Guy awake?????????? :)

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If you are having sex with a Guy you not married to... Shame creeps in...

Adulteration... is the word used for such act..... Tht results in Shame n Guilt...

When you are single... as the society is ok with fact tht you are still choosing your life partner... Generally it is ok if you sleep with many people....

You would not feel Guilty n the Shame then...

But this too is accepted by societies of not all countries....

There are many nations where even now....

1. Sex before Marriage

2. Even a casual relationship before marriage

are jus not accepted ....

Not restricted by any religion or prosperity of the nation....

hence, The Shame n Guilt Stigma is Society oriented...

As Miss X is trying to say in all her posts...

Why is everyone in love with prostitution????

The topic mentioned is beyond tht....

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okay, i have decided..i choose to not understand your point because i just can't understand your english. :(

ur last two posts combine..was ur point like this, if youre not married and u have sex, that's automatically shameful? hmm.

seny0rita - Oh.... License.. See it as marriage... people accept tht you shall sleep with this man or in my case women....

Now it makes sense?????

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you lost me in the license part..

seny0rita - Thk God for goin out of words n thoughts....

Tht was enough,,,,, :)

Shameful Sex??????

Till now - if you do not have license from the society to have it... it has the shame flavor.....

Else it is ok... even to Discuss in open tht we are not conceiving a baby... wht to Do...

People say try harder.... one more time... n there is no shame in discussing tht.... We have the license...

Society does play a big role in our Mental conditioning.... Religion - Sub-set of society

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this forum..

i have 2 points-- my friend used to bartend and was offered $10k by a bar regular (in his late early 50's..twice her age, decent, educated, good looking..not her type, clean) who really had the hots for her, in exchange for you know. she didnt take it. 100% she didnt. she didnt sidejob as a prostitute even with this amount, not because she thought she was way more expensive than the given amount..

u see in this case, she would have willingly-no money involved-lay in bed with him if he was younger and was her type, u know what im saying? would u have judged her if that was the case? no because, now in this genereation we call it casual sex. now, casual sex. sometimes in life, you have that shameful casual sex. like, theres this really good friend of yours then in that one night of drinking, u wake up the next day..u find urself naked next to him! bam, reality strikes! u wake up, hurryingly trying to get out of the room. the point is, so often times..theres also shame in sex even if it does not involve money (re: prostitution). and also in some occassions, it would be the opposite like u had that lay with the guy u intended to do it with but he puts money on the bedstand the next day (not knowing his number..carrie in sex and the city movie). see, thats shameful sex too.

im out of thoughts now..

you cant teach expaireance lol

have always been around and always will be as long as there are women/men willing to sell themselves and men/women who want to buy them.

I think there probably are quite a few who are ashamed of what they do but have to do it to make life better for their children/parents even themselves.

When I see prostitutes over here I don't look down on them. I just feel sorry for them and wonder what the hell they have to put up with to ensure some sort of life.

It is a sad situation for all. The person that is selling their body and perhaps even for the person thats buying it.

Jesus forgave them so we should.

We all prostitute ourselves it we are honest.

I agree with the poster above who spoke about arranged marriages. Still sex with a stranger; the only difference is the family is paid instead of the girl.

I will hoist that up the flag pole and see who salutes it!!

And tht is what Exactly Miss X is saying here.....

Now there are few who are doing it out of pressing necessity....

If the shame factor is considered dormant... Many would not mind....

Affect on Demand n Supply.. reduction in rates... all these are after affects....

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Demeaning or morally wrong.

Like I say, the women are doing it out of nessessity, to put food on their families table, and neither you,I, or anyone can or should judge them for this.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

I just love this thread its going on and on :D

Cheers !!!

hmm ok I will make it a little more simpler.

More women would be able to say yes to being offered money for sex, if there was no shame involved in sex. Therefore a person having sex for money would not be such a reprehensible thing among society.

Hmm, Miss I am getting confused. We were talking about sex, then the prostitution was emphasized. Now we are on the prostitution path and we are back to sex in general again.

Again you are presenting novel scenarios with extenuating circumstances. I am not sure if shame would be factored in if a man went to lengths to show a lady he was clean and offer her an insane amount of money to do something he could probably get for free. It may have a bit more to do with her trying to consider the alterior motive, such as is he going to make her an internet porn star or something.

Shame isnt the only reason people dont have sex for money, they vary from person to person. ____________________________________________________

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

Step away from the prostitution for a second, my original statement was relating to Sex and Shame, not Prostitution and Shame per se, that was an example I gave to add some dimension and clarity to what I meant. For example if a woman was offered $10,000 to have sex with a man, who was clean and disease free, just merely wanted to have sex. Then I think most people, unable to free themselves from the stigma of being paid for sex, and the shame it induces, would say no. I think if the shame about sex no longer existed, then most people would be able to say yes, given they were free to do so and didn't have any objections to it, and that $10k was an enticing enough offer.

Does that make sense?

on same sex marriage in some states, now it's shame on prostitution. What's next, shame on drugs, shame on hired killers, shame on.......

It will all just be normal business! Lol!!!!

"Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship"

"dgoodrebel is not plastic"

Hmm, saying that you can take the shame out of prostitution is a bit like saying what if the sky turned bubble gum pink and it rained jellybeans once a week; novel idea but not going to happen.

Shame can never be taken from prostitution. What about children born out of these "service"? Do you get a waiver when you walk into the brothel saying you will not be liable for any bastard children? who takes care of them then? Tax payers (whom not all use or perhaps approve of such service)? Do we need to take the shame out of more and more children growing up without fathers? Points such as these would add social shame to this.

How can anyone be sure that monogamous partners agree to the others use of these services? Then wouldnt it be a set up to break apart homes as hey, its a normal thing to do right?

Also, if this was the attitude towards prostitution and anyone could do it wouldnt the wage go down a wee bit? It doesnt take a rocket scientist to sell themselves for money. Would this service "better" the society in which adopted it? Hardly. If hookers were a dime a dozen and you could walk into one like a hair salon the rules of supply and demand would surely apply.

Regardless of religion placing shame on such activities, I agree with Gypsy, even atheist find this demeaning and morally wrong. _____________________________________________________

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

Smoke -

Sex Before Marriage???

Don Religion doesn allow...

but making love should be ok.........lol

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Prostitution n human trafficking is looked down upon by most of us,, as we have not lived with or among them...

Back in India.. there are locations which are exclusively for this profession termed "RED LIGHT AREA".. don know about other places... they have a very normal life n treat SEX jus as profession...

They have kids.. send them to schools... and most of the kids fall back in the same profession.. 1. no other choice.

2. Society doesn except them..

A boy child comes up to be a Pimp and the girl child grows to be ready to be trader on night basis

if they can accept it as normal... So can the society....

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Porn can be treated very much like Prostitution as it is visual pleasure for many not for one....

And in many countries (names not needed)..porn stars are treated like celebrities.. not as a Hollywood star... but enjoy stardom of their Kind...

It is all engineered well - Lighting, story line, locations, dresses, undressing scenes, camera positioning.... everything....

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I'm not saying the issue with prostitutes would be shame. I think rather it would be issues about the danger of the work (even with percautions), how "easy" the work is and a jealousy factor. So I still think it would be looked down on as a career option.

Also, a big draw to prostitutes and too magazines like Playboy is the shame factor. While the little girl might think the woman are pretty, the men are picking it up because it's a "guilty" pleasure, not just sexual gratification.

Since we are on my fav. subject which is porn lol, porn stars are always frowned upon for what they do, they have no shame doing it for millions of people to see, but its something you wouldn't let your kids watch now would u? Sex is nothing to be ashamed of we all do it, watching other people have sex is being a perv, paying for it is taking advantage of someone else who is forced to sell sex. Cant have sex before marriage coz religions says so. :( what to do what to doooo!!!

Good Fortune always comes knocking at your door...when you are sh*tting in the toilet!! :)

_[]~SMoKE~[]_

I was watching a program (sorry I can't remember what it was), and a woman grew up seeing the pictures in her fathers Playboy magazines, and thought they were incredibly beautiful, strong women, and became determined to be just like them. The same way I guess a little girl looks at models and actresses and wants to be just like them too. You see, the little girl didn't realise it was shameful to be naked in magazines.

I don't think any of them grew up wanting to be porn stars though...well maybe the men.

Of course there would be people who would not want to be a prostitute, even if it were shame free. But then are those who would. It's relatively easy, can be fun and would make great money. The same as being a model or an actor. And remember it's not just women who can be prostitutes. People pick and choose professions depending on what they like and can see themselves doing. It would be the same for prostitution. I personally have absolutely no desire to be a doctor, and that's completely shame free. Not every job is for every person.

What's more, people in the porn industry are just trumped up prostitutes, and yes there are people who, from very young ages do want to be in that profession. There's a whole industry full of people who are shown respect for what they do, and are paid good money for it. Outside the industry though, we are still grappling with the shame of it all.

If everyone was naked on the streets I'd say that would further diminish the need for prostitutes.

I agree with Gypsy...

There are many jobs where the shame factor is not involved..why would someone want to choose prostitution instead..

Even if its legalized.. I don’t think there would be many women who willingly opt that profession... might do it if they dont have another choice. then why not men and women walk naked on the streets... No shame on that if a whole country is like that...loooool

Gypsy, You have definitely grown up on QL!

haha... that was kool ;)

I defintely think that's how it would be and how it should be treated MissX, however, I still don't think you'd see people lining up the street to get jobs as prostitutes, or ever hear a little girl say "Mommy when I grow up I want to be a hooker!" Stigma or no stigma.

haha I do see what you mean with that.

But if the stigma was removed, and it was legal, then it would become like any other business. With training, quality control etc. The employees would have regular health checks, and would be shown techniques and have practice at them. Same reason we go to a hairdresser instead of letting our friends cut it, or the reason we prefer a professional massage to our spouses one. People want the best service, and are willing to pay for it.

Perhaps i'm not understanding the topic properly or i'm just stupid, but personally i think its the SHAME that keeps us apart from behaving like animals. Imagine people just humping around in the streets.

I dont agree that you have to be married to enjoy sex peacefully without society pointing fingers at you as an outcast. I've never been able to grasp that concept. If you really go to think about it, marriage is also a form or "BUYING" the woman in order to have sex and reproduce. If we look at the whole concept of arranged marriages its just like selling the girl to some unknown stranger. Legal rape some call it. With no shame involved coz the man has this HUSBAND tag.

Good Fortune always comes knocking at your door...when you are sh*tting in the toilet!! :)

_[]~SMoKE~[]_

I think there would defintely be a stigma attached to the person paying for it. In a land of free love he or she having to pay to get laid doesn't really make them look good.

I don't know. I'd have to say there would still be a stigma attached, not as much of one as their is now, but still a stigma.

If you have a partner, then it is up to you & your partner what you each can and can not engage in. That's your own personal decisions.

I'm merely saying offering sex as a service for money would not be considered so inappropriate if the stigma of it being a shameful act was removed.

why remain singles? get married and enjoy. I think more than promoting prostitution, things that lead to marriage or cohabitation should be encouraged like socialising, meeting, mixing up, etc. Shame and social stigmas associated with these activities should be removed..

Women do it to survive, that is all.

They need the money to live and provide for their families.

There is no shame in it.

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

Yes, but we all know that that's not how it would work MissX.

This thread is going intresting :D

Cheers !!!

Nooo I think you're misunderstanding some parts Gypsy. I don't mean to condone having sex with someone's partner, or if you're in a relationship.

Only for the single people who feel like having sex. I just think it would be normal services for money, it we stopped thinking of it as a shameful act.

Well I think, historically monogamy has more or less been the norm, and I really don't think jealousy is a religion made convention. Which is why I think prostitution would be frowned on.

Not to mention that STDs would still exist, which would mean prostitution would still be a dangerous line of work.

Hmm, I think with all the hoochie coochie flying around these days a stigma of "man made" shame is in our best interest.

As for prostitution, it is indeed the worlds oldest profession. Who is to say that monogomy is not in our nature and due to the carefree attitudes we have developed towards sex we have indeed desensitized ourselves by the thinking that sex without shame is what should be the norm. _____________________________________________________

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

But the "bond" is always there MissX, even if it's not acted on.

In regards to would prostitution be ok....I've got absolutely no back up for this, but I would think, that while it would be legal I think it would still be looked down upon as a profession. Whether because it's to "easy" or even simple jealousy, I can't see women respecting a woman who has sex with their partners for money.

In my simple view, SHAME over having sex per se comes from whatever religious beliefs inculcated to us by our elders. As we know, religion has been a significant influencing factor in the society. Maybe it springs from one of the TEN COMMANDMENTS wherein is says "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife"?

I'm no expert in religion, nor want to debate on it...but that's how I see it.

Let me clarify things a little. When we say emotions, we mean a deeper emotion which instigates bonding. Yes of course sex does invoke emotions such as happiness, as does eating a lollypop which is a pleasurable experience, but does not necessarily invoke feelings of a deep partnership.

This conversation seems to have transferred from Shame to whether there is some deep emotional bond occurring during sex. I believe there can be an emotional bond, but you can also have sex without an emotional bond. Of course being humans there will be a temporary feeling of companionship as there would be if you were partnered up in a tennis match. But I believe that the depth of emotion can end there for sex, if the participants choose.

If there is no emotion involved with SEX....

Why would anyone indulge into it????

Either for the pleasure... or for giving pleasure to partner.... without Pleasure or emotions... SEX wont exist....

WHY WOULD anyone exert so much for nothing.....

___________________________________________

Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Well, if you think casual sex does not involve emotion, then you've not understood the true meaning of emotion. BTW, I believe when you buy sex you actually do not pay her for the sex, but you pay her to leave (afterwards) ;-)

Shame and Guilt are what religion use to shove their teachings down your throat.

Sex for money is like selling your own flesh. Thats why religion never allows it. However anything is possible in this space age, and again prostitution was mentioned and practiced since the time BC.

@vegas

hey, who's discussing prices?

You can't teach experience...

@missx

see, money is not the pointim trying to stress on here. im not a know it all but i think a favor is doing something that is asked of you to and not really wanting to do it, like "going out of your way" kind of stuff. you know what i mean? so add the idealogy that is sexual to the meaning of favor..im sure, you'll get what im trying to say about the only reason why i think it's shameful for me.

@vegas

amen, brother. ^^

a follow up on that..even the writers of sex and the city think so too. in one episode, carrie takes the money left on the bed table the morning after from her one hot, educated, successful french lover.

Then it seems fine to me...:)

You can't teach experience...

ever? Or you just mean for money?

@ missx

this is a query about the first half of your post. never mind what the oldies say, what your religion is telling you, what them conservatives tell you-- simply put it this way, if u ask me, i find it shameful for only one reason and one reason alone...

personally, i can't and never can, out of my free will do any sexual favors. i stress on those last 2 words.

Want to know something funny. I received an email from someone who wanted to discuss the fact that I think prostitution is ok, but insisted we only do it over emails. I think I accidently advertised myself as a prostitute haha.

Just to clarify things, I said that if the shame involved in sex did not exist, than both male and female prostitution would just be another service for money. I was not claiming to be a prostitute.

On the topic of Oxytocin, it is true that it's associated with sex, but it's not only "released" after having sex. The fact is that having a good healthy relationship actually increases the chances of high secretion of Oxytocin when having sex and the lack of security within a relationship decreases the level of Oxytocin within the body. Hence you get the term "having emotionless sex"!! High levels of Oxytocin lead to a higher sense of bonding when having sex, so it's not the sex that leads to Oxytocin, but the Oxytocin would lead to a tense sexual experience and feeling of pleasure.

Linking that to the prostitution emotionless sex, that would explain why prostitutes and "customers" don't feel a bond when having sex, it's because they didn't have any kind of pleasurable memory or experience that built up the existence of Oxytocin to be released during sex.

Even in Elephant religion sex in public is shameful! But in monkey religion it is not.

Arousal doesnt mean climax. Also emotion doesnt have to be one of love, satisfaction, bonding etc. It can be a self depricating feeling or need. Emotion is emotion, and nothing can be done without it. Without emotion there is no drive. Even if you are seeking sex for pleasure, there is an emotional attachment to it whether it is positive or negative.

____________________________________________________

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

But wouldnt that suggest the male feels more "bonded" to the female because he ejaculates everytime, as opposed to women who don't? Whereas in reality I would assume that women try to make an emotional connection more than the men do? Or did I not read that right?

According to one study:

Plasma (oxytocin) levels increased during sexual arousal in both women and men and were significantly higher during orgasm/ejaculation than during prior baseline testing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3782434

A different study found that results differed between men and women, concluding:

We conclude that in man (arginine vasopressin) is secreted during sexual arousal, and there is, subsequently, a selective release of (oxytocin) at the time of ejaculation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3654918

This points to a different pysiological response to sexual intercourse between men and women.

It has also been suggested that this is why men 'want' sex immediately prior, but typically lose interest immediately after ejaculation, but why women tend ot want to cuddle and feel held/comforted.

That's interesting fubar. But what part about sex releases the hormone? Actual penetration, feelings of being turned on etc?

Let's try a different tack.

Scientists have linked the hormone Oxytocin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin) to the feeling of 'bonding' that men and women feel immediately after sex, as well as in breast feeding, labour, etc etc.

[It's worth noting that the presence of Oxytocin in men during/around orgasm occurred in a proportion of the sample that was not of statistical significance.]

Perhaps asking men and women whether or not there is a social/hormonal/whatever bond that occurs during and after sex might yield different answers. Males, according to this research, aren't as needy/clingy/etc.

"I still maintain that the shame associated with sex and nudity is a human concept and was originally derived from religious doctrine."

Fully agree with you

Ayman

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

It depends what emotions you are talking about. It doesn't have to be like or even love, but a "connection" or "bond" has been made.

I personally believe the people who say sex can not be emotionless, are the people who have never had emotionless sex. Of course everyone who has sex is looking for something that sex or intimacy can supply. But it is not necessarily emotional satisfaction.

I still maintain that the shame associated with sex and nudity is a human concept and was originally derived from religious doctrine.

Well I think if there was no shame associated with nudity or promiscuity then the need for prostitution would be obsolete, however those that still pursued it I think would still be looked down on.

Hmm, if we took socialization, emotion and perhaps religion out of life where would we be? As humans, hasnt it been our nature to evolve, to better ourselves and our societies?

Even without the existance of mores and morals would it not be a step back on the "evoltionary" scale?

Sex is a means of multiplying, true, and i dont agree that even casual sex is emotionless. People who seek sex in this form are always searching for something that is missing, whether it be an uninhibited partner or just some human connection they are lacking it is a physical and emotional need in almost everyone.

As far as nakedness goes, most countries impose laws that dont allow full nudity which are not based on religion.

____________________________________________________

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

Who says lice aren't tasty snacks anymore? mmmmmm lice.

Ok so Gypsy you agree that shame about sex and nudity is a human concept, but you think that because sex is an emotion based behaviour, people would still not be able to prostitute themselves?

I don't think lice picking quite counts the same way...First of all it's regarded as a louse and something to be destroyed, rather then a yummy treat.

Secondly, lice picking within the primate group is done by any member, not just the mother. Many people would consider (whether consciously or sub consciously) a doctor part of their "group." Payment for the louse picking is money since we no longer consider them tasty snacks (which is what the primates payment for the service is).

And many mothers do pick the lice out of their childs hair, I've never heard of a doctor doing anything more then saying "yup your kids got lice, here's how you look for knits, go to it."

But I said legal AND morally sound. Those places where it is legal have not yet developed to believe it is morally sound. So of course it would still be regarded as shameful.

missx when survival comes into play, things change...but natural morals is the name we give to a human's instincts and they are undeniable. Just like a baby wolf doesn't try and kill other wolves, a human (unprovoked) won't try to kill other humans. Survival of the species and all that.

I disagree MissX, there are places where prostitution is legal, and it's still regarded as dirty and shameful for both. (Although more so for the prostitute, but that's a whole other issue).

"Keeping the vein of that analogy though Fubar, lice-picking and sex are ways that primates bond. They don't do those things with strangers from another primate group.

Hugging and sex are ways humans bond."

Well that's my point. At some point humans decided that lice-picking wasn't bonding, but was utilitarian, and so it was acceptable just to pay someone to do it for you.

In many other primate communities, animals are promiscuous, and sexually active couples or groups don't always bond for life.

Lest we get in to an argument that 'humans aren't animals' my point is just that if sex is so shameful and prostitution so dirty, why is it 'the oldest profession'? In my mind, sex isn't shameful, nor is promiscuity. It may be socially unacceptable, but I think that's for cultural reasons, not for inherent behavioural reasons.

There are plenty of taboos that are now acceptable and offered as a service/commodity:

Organ donations - technically it's illegal, but a black market does exist for human body parts.

Surrogacy - some women are happy enough to pay for another woman to carry their child to term

Wet nurses - allowing another woman to breastfeed your baby isn't considered gross by everyone

Counselling - opening up to a therapist and telling her/him your deepest most shameful secrests isn't, oddly, shameful to most people

Some cultures would regard the above as shameful, but other cultures find them acceptable. I think sex is no different - the associated shame is created by social values and little else.

Replace the word emotions with instinct then.

I disagree. If prostitution was made legal and morally sound. Then neither the prostitute or the client would feel any shame whatsoever. Shame is a human concept.

Talking about nudity, all i can say is that children have no problem with it because they are pure and inocent, if nudity would be that bad than children wouldn't born naked.

About sex, i also have seen on documenteries that primmates use it to streighten the "tribe's" affection per each others.

Ayman

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

me either I dunno about the emotions in higher functioning animals. but what I know is that having sex without emotions is NO SENSE!

i agree gypsy...and i think this sanctity that sex mysteriously maintains is what makes prostitution shameful...the violation of an obvious (though undefined) bonding activity.

I dunno about the emotions in higher functioning animals. Just because they like it, doesn't necessarily mean emotions are attributed to it.

I don't think there is such a thing as natural morals. We killed in the past as a means to survive, as we kill animals today. It was a necessity. We developed morals when we developed the ability to empathise with others, and had eliminated the need to kill to survive. Killing and procreating are basic instincts of survival, as you will see in the animal world.

But there are "emotions" involved in sex in the higher functionig animals, especially those who live in packs, as humans do.

Sex is more then procreation, it's affection, bonding, saying Hi. And it's still very much kept within your group.

But if sex were not separable from emotions, then prostitutes would not be in existence today because they would have no clients.

I think emotions and sex are not necessarily a biological trait. The emotions we feel during sex, are the ones which we were taught to feel. Like animals, if we took away the concept to think, then we would use it as a means to satisfy us sexually, and to procreate.

there had to be something basically shameful about sex for it to be deemed (excessively) shameful by religion...so why didn't religion say that eating was shameful? or walking? it isn't just a random thing, where there is smoke there's fire.

yes religion does make a huge deal out of something small...but something small is still something...there still is shame in sex...i say that meaning just random emotionless sex. Sex between two consenting adults who both want it (in opposition to wanting money that comes with it) is a very beautiful thing that is being stigmatized by religion...i don't think prostitution is though, prostitution is shameful because of natural morals...like how nobody has to teach someone that killing is wrong, everyone sort of instinctually knows it (this is all just my opinion of course).

Well I think need for sexual release, amongst other issues, drives men to prostitutes, and drugs, poverty, etc drive women. These are things in many ways created by religion and culture.

If men could find sexual release anywhere, there would be no need for prostitutes.

Just thinking about it for a sec...but if there was no shame associated to sex...would there be prostitutes?? Prostitutes exist really because men needed to find women to have sex with and most women wouldn't because of ideas of promescuity. If promiscuity is ok...the need for prostitutes would be gone.

Keeping the vein of that analogy though Fubar, lice-picking and sex are ways that primates bond. They don't do those things with strangers from another primate group.

Hugging and sex are ways humans bond.

Yes, it is cultural. BUT, a society's norms are often shaped by their religious beliefs.

Oh I definitely think that ideas of shame in regards to nudity and sex are religious based. However I don't agree 100% with the concept of emotionless sex. Since caveman times sex has been a bonding tool, and a way to get closer to one another, not simply a tool for gratification.

Here's a different example.

Most mothers would happily pay for a doctor or nurse to check their child's head for lice.

But how many mothers would pay for someone to give their child a hug?

In the primate world, checking for lice is one of the ultimate acts of affection and social cohesion, but in the human world it's just another 'service' that can be bought and sold.

I'm inclined to agree with MissX that the shame/stigma associated with prostitution is cultural, and not rational.

Gypsy I think you make a good point about emotions being involved in sex, but I also think that the emotions we feel are also things that are determined by how we are raised. I think everyone is capable of emotionless sex, as is also everyone capable of emotional sex.

Without prior information, a child does not feel shameful when it is naked, and it does not feel shame when it see's people having sex. It is merely curious, and no emotions are invoked.

i think these are the things we say so we could sleep at night peacefully, hoping this would justify one's promiscuity.

shame is inate in man, be pagan or religious, agnost or atheist.

Hmmmm, that's quite a difficult one.....Personally I think, that even in a world without religious ideas of shame put on us, very few people would be able to be prostitutes.

I think naturally sex and emotions are tied together in humans and the idea of having emotionless sex, which would be required to be a prostitute would be very very difficult.

So I think there would still be a social stigma attached to being a prostitute, even if it's just not understanding how they can do what they do.