UK’s first official sharia courts begin work
ISLAMIC law has been officially adopted in Britain, with sharia courts given powers to rule on Muslim civil cases.
The government has quietly sanctioned the powers for sharia judges to rule on cases ranging from divorce and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence.
Rulings issued by a network of five sharia courts are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court.
Previously, the rulings of sharia courts in Britain could not be enforced, and depended on voluntary compliance among Muslims.
It has now emerged that sharia courts with these powers have been set up in London, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester with the network’s headquarters in Nuneaton, Warwickshire. Two more courts are being planned for Glasgow and Edinburgh.
Sheikh Faiz-ul-Aqtab Siddiqi, whose Muslim Arbitration Tribunal runs the courts, said he had taken advantage of a clause in the Arbitration Act 1996.
Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case.
Siddiqi said: “We realised that under the Arbitration Act we can make rulings which can be enforced by county and high courts. The act allows disputes to be resolved using alternatives like tribunals. This method is called alternative dispute resolution, which for Muslims is what the sharia courts are.”
The disclosure that Muslim courts have legal powers in Britain comes seven months after Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was pilloried for suggesting that the establishment of sharia in the future “seems unavoidable” in Britain.
In July, the head of the judiciary, the lord chief justice, Lord Phillips, further stoked controversy when he said that sharia could be used to settle marital and financial disputes.
In fact, Muslim tribunal courts started passing sharia judgments in August 2007. They have dealt with more than 100 cases that range from Muslim divorce and inheritance to nuisance neighbours.
It has also emerged that tribunal courts have settled six cases of domestic violence between married couples, working in tandem with the police investigations.
Siddiqi said he expected the courts to handle a greater number of “smaller” criminal cases in coming years as more Muslim clients approach them. “All we are doing is regulating community affairs in these cases,” said Siddiqi, chairman of the governing council of the tribunal.
Jewish Beth Din courts operate under the same provision in the Arbitration Act and resolve civil cases, ranging from divorce to business disputes. They have existed in Britain for more than 100 years, and previously operated under a precursor to the act.
Politicians and church leaders expressed concerns that this could mark the beginnings of a “parallel legal system” based on sharia for some British Muslims.
Dominic Grieve, the shadow home secretary, said: “If it is true that these tribunals are passing binding decisions in the areas of family and criminal law, I would like to know which courts are enforcing them because I would consider such action unlawful. British law is absolute and must remain so.”
Douglas Murray, the director of the Centre for Social Cohesion, said: “I think it’s appalling. I don’t think arbitration that is done by sharia should ever be endorsed or enforced by the British state.”
There are concerns that women who agree to go to tribunal courts are getting worse deals because Islamic law favours men.
Siddiqi said that in a recent inheritance dispute handled by the court in Nuneaton, the estate of a Midlands man was divided between three daughters and two sons.
The judges on the panel gave the sons twice as much as the daughters, in accordance with sharia. Had the family gone to a normal British court, the daughters would have got equal amounts.
In the six cases of domestic violence, Siddiqi said the judges ordered the husbands to take anger management classes and mentoring from community elders. There was no further punishment.
In each case, the women subsequently withdrew the complaints they had lodged with the police and the police stopped their investigations.
Siddiqi said that in the domestic violence cases, the advantage was that marriages were saved and couples given a second chance.
Inayat Bunglawala, assistant secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said: “The MCB supports these tribunals. If the Jewish courts are allowed to flourish, so must the sharia ones.”
Adey, They are welcome to apply. I know that for sure. My step-daughter was not accepted to the school I mentioned as they only take 30 boys and 30 girls each year.
And it clearly stated on the LEA form for preference that if one of the schools you are applying for is a faith based school then you had to give further information like what mosque you attend.
And it states in the guidebook that pupils ascribing themselves to the faith of the school would recieve preference. With that being said about this particular school it recieves almost 1000 applicants every year and only take 60 students...
It is too bad that non Muslims won't send their children to a Muslim school... I can tell you that some of these 'Muslims' have no problem sending their children to Catholic schools...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
You could be right there - but that brings up a different argument - Why should tax payers money be spent on educating an exclusive religious group(any of them) in a multicultural and multi-faith society?
Don't believe in state funded faith schools because they can be divisive and ghettoizing (especially if no other pupils of different faiths can attend),
and,
there is no such thing as a christian, muslim jewish hindu etc child; they are children of christian, muslim etc parents - they are too young to have an informed opinion on the matter and make a choice. If a parent insists on educating their child through a religion they should pay for it themselves and not rely on the state to provide it. As I say, especially in a multicultural and multi-faith society such as the UK - I know this is different in other countries but the topic is UK based.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
and I've arrived at the conclusion that you WANT to believe that Islamic law does not want to protect women against domestic violence. I am not sure why you think so. I am sure you will point out your work in this field to establish yourself as an expert. But can you provide proof... statistics... facts... which will prove that islamic juripudence does not protect women against domestic violence... If you cannot, then please stop making false accusations based on your personal bias... (thats just my sophisticated way of saying... SHUT UP GYPSY)
I think that that ruling only applies to christian/catholic schools Adey...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
UK state funded faith schools have to take a proportion of children of different faiths, if they want to apply - I think it might be 25% (will have to check it later)
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
clear blue, it is a state funded school. Whether non Muslims want to attend or not is irrelevant as under the rules of faith schools children practicing that faith take precedence.
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
...may I reiterate it was the last statement only
:)
Stork I actually agree with you on this issue! Not for the same reasons of course! But in my mind people came to britain to work and for the freedoms they were allowed not to change the system to suit a MINORITY!
Now if more and more people became muslim out of the 68 mill? then fair enough as this is the democratic way.
In my opinion muslims should go back to their own countries and try to make shariah law work there first!
Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi
You are always moaning that non muslims here, in the GCC, dont respect islam, but yer expect muslimds in a non islamic state to be able to have their own way.
British law is THE way..Nothing else, whether its sharia, jewish law, or the law of the pink spotted moonies from the church on the left..
And yer not from UK, so yer dont know.
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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
hmmm....
Erm...
When I moved to Qatar I was aware that I would have to abide by the laws and culture of the land. I am more than happy to do so. The laws and culture of Qatar are based on an enduring Islamic tradition for which I have great respect.
In Britain, my home country, the laws and culture are based on thousands of years of Christian tradition. I respect them and live by them even though I am not a Christian (or a follower of any other religion)
So why do Muslims, who have chosen to set up home in Britain, believe they have any right to impose their own legal system?
Britain's legal system is one of the oldest, fairest and most democratic on earth. Everybody who lives in Britain has access to it and, in my opinion should live by it. It has perfectly adequate provision for justice in the sorts of cases going before these Sharia courts.
This developmemt is going to prove extremely divisive in a country that needs all the unifying forces it can get. A truly dangerous precedent.
Stork.
There is a government funded Muslim school around the corner from me in Birmingham named Al-Hijrah school. It is considered the best school in public school in Birmingham by many non Muslim and Muslim alike....
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
plus Yusuf Islam's school.
They already have schools for Muslim children in the UK...as I said the country is extremely PC!
pm at her old tricks regarding the authenticity of hadeeth! Now I hope you are not suggesting that I have called you a non muslim because I surely have never ever done so!
I have a problem with the inheritance laws because alot of times a women works or sacrifices alot in order for her husband to own that home, start that business (that she often runs), or helps him to save his money (by not demanding her rights). And the muslim community do not make an safeguards for women in general. Particularly because making contracts and giving larger worthy presents is not part of their culture and dishonourable to even suggest.
Far too often everything is in the name of the husband rather then the wife. And shariah courts do not evaluate the debts he owes to his wife properly. In fact, even the scholars have major disagreements in this area and often do not side with the wife regardless of the condition it would put her in and the sacrifices she has made due to the verbal promises by her husband to the contrary.
I do welcome inheritance laws and see great wisdom in them. However, I do not welcome unjust judgements that would leave many women homeless and on the streets. Furthermore, the shariah court may convince a girl to give up her part of the inheritance but has no recourse to funds from her brothers should they neglect her.
And for many women they will feel pressured to use a shariah court rather then a uk court due to honour and dignity. And wanting to follow the most Islamic way!
However the reality is that they will often suffer needlessly as a result.
Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi
The inheritance issue is a simple one but deeply rooted in numerous other aspects of the religion. To understand it means to understand numerous other Islamic concepts that tie into it.
In Islam, a woman is always taken care of, either by her husband, her father or her brothers. Everything a woman has is her own, but men have greater responsibility to the family. Each roles is clearly defined in Islam with all responsibilities laid out.
The reason a woman gets half is because she has no financial obligation to anyone but herself. She may be taken care of by her brother if she is unmarried and their father just died, her brother will provide all her needs from his money.
This is the reasoning. With societal roles changing and the shift in the family structure some may find this unfair, but there is a reason and if looked at logically it is practical. It is in no way stating that men are more important so he gets more money, or that woman are worth less so they get less.
It is ramadan... have a little faith :)
It doesnt matter how much of the Population of the UK is Muslim, whether it be 3% or 83%, the fact is, the UK uses the British Civil law...Thats it, and thats how it should be.
If you want Sharia law, then, as many people always say on here, go live in an Islamic country.
If a man beats his wife, he should face the law as per British rules, and hopefully jail, not some pathetic anger management course, which he can bluff...
This two tier system is gonna lead to big problems in the near future....
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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
PM, please forgive me if I rehash what others may have already stated, hayyakAllaah.
It is not my place nor my level to declare you to be a kafir. This is something that only scholars above us have the right to do so in our times. To declare an INDIVIDUAL to be a kafir then one must have absolute certainty that the hujjah or proof has been clearly explained to that individual. Surely I (nor anyone else) am not in a place to have that certainty about anyone I correspond with over the internet!
Perhaps you are referring to the sharee'ah in a general manner BUT in regards to inheritance and witness of Muslims then that is explained clearly in the Quran.
And please remember the blanket statement of Allaah, {This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion.} (Al-Ma'idah 5:3)
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
What is there not to be happy with that? That is how Allaah and the messenger legislated it for us, didn't they?
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
Why not adopt the Islamic punishments also? Then there might be fewer hooligans, thieves, rapists, anarchists, drug dealers, murderers, peadophiles, etc in the UK. The prisons are bursting at the seams, the police are overwhelmed and the courts are more concerned with the rights of the criminal and not the victim!
...and now it's there.
They should've never killed that Qatari in England...
Uhh...what will happen to the monarchial system if the sharia judgement's implemented?
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
You might be surprised to find that in general I see no problem with the set up of Sharia courts BUT....
The two main stumbling blocks, things I find unacceptable are:
1) They should play no part in criminal offences.
2) That the courts decision is binding and one loses all recourse to British law - this is the system for everyone and it's job is to protect everyone regardless of which sector of the community one comes from.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Until beating women is seen as something MORE than a "smaller criminal case..." it will continue to happen to women regardless of religion / nationality etc...
PM, from an Islamic perspective what is there not to be happy with in regards to the testimony and inheritance laws?
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
I apologize Gypsy for misunderstanding or misreading that part of your speech.
But even understanding it as you have clarified it to me, I still stand by what I said which is that a Muslim woman will be more likely to seek arbitration from a sharee'ah court than a non Muslim one...
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
There are more then 50 muslim countries in the world and none of them is role model of islam in true spirit. when people look at the muslim countries they think what is going on there must be islamic which is unfortunately not. that's make a lot of confusion.In contemporary world people will not believe on theories until exponents prove it.
If muslims can't even get shariah law right in their own countries how in the world do they think it is possible to do so in a non muslim country?
Please! I went to law school just because I was taught infiltrate the system in America. Little did I know that I was being fed a load of rubbish in order to serve the ambitions of idiotic muslims who came here to work and fill their pocket books. Yet can barely practice the religion themselves.
Who are the leaders of this shariah council? practicing, fair and just people who somehow have learned from mistakes made in muslim countries who are implementing shariah. I think not!
While I welcome some of the inheritance laws and marital arbitration for the more cultural and uneducated lot who refuse to take care of their biz outside shariah court. I don't think the muslims are strong enough, knowledgable enough and in agreement enough to implement such a potentially dangerous system in british society.
And I agree with gypsy and PM in terms of womens rights! This is a huge issue in the muslim world that time and again is completely ignored.
Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi
Islam is the second largest religion in the United Kingdom with a total of 1,591,000, (or 2.8% of the total population) Muslims. We must appreciate the british govt for setting up the shariah courts.It will help muslims to integrate more in the british society. This example will boost the cause of minorities in all other countries,Hopefully...........
Merry, I didn't say 9 times out of 10 the court would side with the man, I said 9 time out of 10 an abused woman will not be the one making the decision about which court they go to.
My bad for assuming PM was a man, I didnt even read their profile. My comment still sticks, although I can retract the good muslim man part in her reference.
...a bit more carefully!
Also, if Brit had quoted the original newspaper source I don't think we would have even had this debate!
I blame BritExpat!
lol
:P
You see PM, I never stated I had a problem with opinion. I referred to you as argumentative because with you being a muslim man, and me complimenting them you still found negativity in the statement and turned my comment back around into controversy when there was none implied.
Your statements are semi attacks, which is fine in the spirit of debate,but seems all you are looking to do is put egg on my face. Very nice PM...
Inayat Bunglawala's letter to the Editor of the Daily Express:"sham nature of story"
The Assistant Secretary General of the MCB has responded to the Daily Express's headline 'Now Muslims Get their own laws in Britain' (30th April 2007).
His letter notes that the front payge article "continues the longstanding Daily Express policy to misrepresent and demonise Islam and British Muslims with a clear view to inciting hatred of them".
It continues:
"Contrary to your incendiary headline and ‘news’ story the Shari’ah courts that exist in the UK deal entirely with civil matters such as marriage and divorce. Under English law people are free to devise their own way to settle a dispute before an agreed third party. The Shari’ah courts do not – at all – deal with criminal issues which are a matter for the British courts.
The British Jewish community have a similar – but far more widespread and established system of courts – known as Beth Din. Strangely though, neither the front page Daily Express story nor your editorial saw fit to mention this. We can only guess that this was because it would have exposed the sham nature of your story and have undermined the whole purpose behind the exercise: which is to single out British Muslims and portray them as being subversive, anti-democratic and separatist.
To add further insult, your story contains a quote from me saying that:
‘We believe one legal code should apply for all citizens of the UK. There is no place for multiple legal systems for people of different religious or ethnic backgrounds.’
Please note that this quote was not given to your reporter, Paul Jeeves, by me. I have never spoken with Paul Jeeves about Shari’ah courts. I can only imagine he cut and pasted this quote of mine from over a year ago when I was discussing the possibility of a dual criminal code system operating in the UK – not civil code."
how are the "judges" chosen?
What's the criteria?
- I took the blue pill and found myself alive in Qatar - wish I had taken the red and stayed in Europe
deletd
The Sharia law, should be outlaw completly in any western democracy.
In archaeological perspective about Divorce woman, lots of pharaohs have succumbed to their tombs due to their actions.
If you are in the UK then I believe that there should be one legal system for all regardless of race relgion or gender...so all are equal under the law...
King Charles 1 failed to comprehend that and like other Stuart kings believed in divine right. this led to civil war.
Oliver Cromwell (a bit of a weasly git) established that no-one is above the law...it applies to all.
Although the monarchy returned parliament made them tow the line and become answerable.
this is at it should be.....
That's it. No deviation.
Ahh PM, ever the argumentative one.
Reference is to good muslim men... no mention of a court.
Qatar enforces these rights quite well, never had any issue even with the ex huband, always got my due.
Anyone who does such things to their wives have more to fear than a court... being a re-vert you know that.
I rather like the Sharia rights I get as a woman. I get to spend every cent I make however I want, I get an allowance from hubby to buy all the stuff for the house, I dont have to make my own car payments, he is obliged to keep me in the lifestyle I had when we were married, he paid me a dowry... thats just the financial!
A good muslim man is a good man period. A man who can follow the teachings of the Prophet (PBUH) when he said "the best amoung you are those who are kindest to your wives" is a man indeed.
Deleted
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
Gypsy... You, my friend are speaking from your backside......
To insinuate that the judges are going to side with the men 9 out of 10 times is ludicrous and ignorantly biased...
While I agree with you that it should be maintained for civil disputes and not actual crimes. You have gone to the extreme and not steped over the line. You, my friend have stomped on the line.
This system will actually help woman who have been assaulted. A Muslim woman who would never take action through a British court may in fact go through a Islamic civil court.
And it is nothing but an assumption on your part that anger management and mentoring from a community elder will not solve the problem. And where did you get your 3 years for domestic assault?
They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin
PM, if you had read all the posts you would have seen the distinction.
but two things that are is believing and death! That is why so many on these forums hurrdle expressions/opinions in this forum you'd think the world is coming to an end or something! LOL1
I am always excited to go to sleep! In anticipation of the new experience I will find awaiting me.
Wow, this is perhaps the most informative forum I have read in awhile on QL. My simple view is that these laws is ok if you want it. The artical states that the two parties must agree to this court system, so thats ok cause there is a choice. The way I see it is that in most western societies women are very strong minded and if there not it won't be long before they catch on to the rights of a woman! I am from canada and I see many women from many countries, especially muslim countries and while they still respect their islamic faith and traditions, (inshalla) the power in knowing their rights have brought them a long way. I see them becoming stronger and stronger. More muslim women are getting rid of their abusive husbands (oh! and non- muslim women too), they are working to help support the families and they are creating their own financial wealth, so that if and when their husbands decide they are to old or not worthy of them or want that second wife, then they ( the women )will be able to stand on their own.
I was also watching a documentary about the islamic laws in nigeria west africa &(mauritania) I saw that a young girl of 12 was raped by 4 islamic, muslim men from her own country, own city, own town and this girl was beaten and sent to jail. Nothing happened to the men and only one of the men who did it admitted to having sex with her and he said that she agreed to it.
12 years old, a virgin, no education and more than likely because of her upbrining never even heard of the word penis was raped and beaten, then beaten again and finally thrown in jail, 12 years old. I am wondering if this punishment is listed in the laws or Quran if it is can someone more scholorly direct me to that passage?
By the way I was reading the Quran last night! more specifically i was reading the book of women and it strikes me that there are all these rule listed for women and not men! did mohammad really get all this stuff from Allha or did he add-live! LOL! I'm scratching my butt. Don't get offended all my muslim friends, I converted to muslim about a year ago and just like I did with the Holy Bible I am now in process with the Quran just trying to figure it all out.
I am always excited to go to sleep! In anticipation of the new experience I will find awaiting me.
PM unless you were born here I seriously doubt you have been here longer than I have.
Do you realize the Sharia law in the UK is not mandatory and that it cannot conflict with the law of the UK? A persons rights cannot be taken away on this instance, and they also choose to go by Sharia law, not forced.
As for Qatar, this is a muslim country, so would it not be assumed that Sharia law would be the basis for the judicial system here?
No westernm expat has been lashed nor have they been stopped in the airport and denied travel because of lack of their husbands permission. If you say otherwise you are dead wrong.
Jesus, the Jew, was judged and punished by a Roman Court, because the Roman Empire allowed one law only: The Roman Law. It seems, that Great Britain is becoming rather weak allowing any other law but the British for British people with whatever faith. It's ludicrous.
For example, under Brazilian law a father has to give alimony to the child, even if the mother of the child doesn't want/need the alimony. The reason for that is that the alimony is for the child and it is an irrevocable right the child has.
Now let's assume the couple decides to have the alimony discussions within an arbitration court.
This arbitration court still needs to abide by the law. So, let's say the couple decide that no alimony needs to be paid, it is not lawful, even though it was sanctioned by the arbitrage guy.
My point is that the same set of laws should apply within one country always.
They do not have two sets of law here for muslims and non muslims, by the way. They make a provision under their law to accomodate non-muslims, but it doesn't make it a different law.
Now what they're doing in the UK is having two sets of law in the same country. Yes, it is only arbitration, but it still is two sets of law. Mediation and arbitration courts all over the world (where they exist, obviously) still are bound by the country's own law, and not a different set of laws altogether.
I'm glad you put choice under inverted commas as peer pressure will ensure that even when someone doesn't want to go to this islamic court, they'll go anyway.
Tolerance should be and must be a two way street. I think what he says makes a lot of sense and I for one don't see any contradiction here.
Just call me Tigasin. That's what I'm talking about
It is bascically an "arbitration panel". You have a "choice" whether you want to go there. All parties have to agree to arbitration beforehand.
so i was just being stupid ..
well a long days work and fasting can do that to you
:)
No Clear, that tirade was to alik. :)
y cant i c my own comments
hey
Clear I understand that, but people shouldn't be allowed to choose in criminal matters because they are highly emotional and sensitive matters, that's WHY you need an un-biased antonymous court, that isn't swayed by cultural or religious issues. Obviously we don't have a court that's 100% like that yet, but a Shariah court will still be more swayed by culture and religion (obviously) and will end up allowing those factors judge the case, rather then the facts.
i think you are misreading my posts just a little.
i use the water as an example because as stated, there are some in here who when talking about qatar think that they do enough, and yet when it comes to the west, it's never enough.
i think you will agree that when the UK (or canada) makes a fairly substantial change to it's legal system, that's a big deal, and i would argue a bigger change than what happens here. after 3 years living in canada with a PR, you can apply for your passport, and within a year or so of that you are a voting citizen, with the same rights as a canadian.
my point was not to generalize - i just find it sad that some of biggest advocates of this sharia court in the UK in this thread are also some of the most vocal people against me having a glass of water in my car during ramadan. i think qatar can do more, and i support whatever efforts my country makes to be more inclusive. like you said, it's a two way street and many don't seem to realize that.
___________________________________________
"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I
lol
:P
Well Amoud I'm getting really sick of people misunderstanding me.
LOL GYPSY......... your comment really made this whole thread a lot lighter.... be careful dont speak your mind lmao... you are a gem girly ;)
OH FOR F***CKS SAKE! I don't think ANY separate court ESPECIALLY a religious one, be it Islam, Catholic, Jewish, or bloody fu**king scientology should try Domestic Abuse cases!
With, I am also western, 4th generation canadian (doesnt go back much farther than that). The water example is misleading With, not only westerners cant drink water here but you know what, locals are not allowed to have liquor licenses, or the ladies are not allowed to travel with their kids without their husbands. If you are tired of hearing how racists the west is and how infuriating it is to see them "bow" to radicals I am also tired of hearing the saga of how accomodating the UK is to everyone and no one is accomodating back.
Adopting practise out of respect is another thing all together, and it is reciprical. Everything in this world is not a 'you against me' issue, and generalizing these facts does not help.
whts wid u and domestic volience and islam ??
in case u dont know, islam has given the utmost respect to women ..and it has been really disliked in islam to hit ur women.
Clear I'm sorry I don't think two courts trying Criminal cases will be at all fair. One of the two is going to come off as looking lax, and from what the article is saying it's the Shariah court.
just looked at this thread and it seems i missed quite much
if we all agreed 100% this would be pretty boring...
you are right, since i can get a liquor license here. i am not stating that Qatar makes no exceptions.
i find that some people are very quick to call the west racist, and what have you, when in fact some of our governments are trying very hard to integrate minorities. i was using the water as an example of something happening here, as last week or the week before, some of the people in this thread who think the UK has to adopt sharia were arguing that i should not be allowed to have some water in my car during ramadan (and for the record i don't have food in my car during ramadan out of respect).
___________________________________________
"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I
:)
Apologies.. I misunderstood..
clearblue...can't comment on Sharia courts but there is an unoffical parrallel legal system in Aust with regards to Aboringal tribal laws and there have been cases where an acused doesn't want to go through the parrallel system but through 'white man law' system, but its is hard to avoid. In the end, the acused basically flees. Can a person who is Muslim 'choose' not to go through Sharia law courts?
I may be blonde but I am wise
smile lots laugh more
QT ????
...with Sharia for some civil cases
Clear are you actually reading what I'm saying? You say:
"Sharia compliance court for marriage, inheritance law etc plus there is a separte law for a group of ppl in the other minority (Jaffna Tamils) and yet another law for a group of ppl from the majority (Upcountry Sinhalese)."
I'm saying I have NO issues for separate courts when it comes to CIVIL law, such as marriage, inheritance, divorce, etc. HOWEVER my problem is that I don't think these separate courts should decide CRIMINAL cases, such as domestic abuse, assault, murder, etc. Now do these separate courts in Sri Lanka judge murder cases?
i am not lying.
i am not talking about the people who break the law. from what many in QL and in my office have told me, it is against the law for me to drink during fasting hours in my car.
i have been told this by so many people that I assumed it was true? is it not true?
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"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I
Withnail, if you read my previous threads you will see the law is not the same here for all either. Gypsys comment was that because it is flawed they change it here to be accomodating and thats why it shouldnt be in the UK.
Do I have to state agreed or disagreed? If this were a black and white subject would we all be having this discussion? Am I not part of the group if I dont agree 100%.
Canada also uses Sharia law in some provinces. And your host country also has leniancies against expats.
I think this debate is really interesting, but am afraid it could become one of "those" threads!
Please? :)
i don't think i am getting emotional. i clearly said more than once that if it is applied to civil matters i am OK with sharia courts.
is it possible you are misreading something i posted?
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"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I
what is your point?
yes it is the same for you and me here regarding the water. do you agree with that? if so i guess you think that britain should make everything the same there and not allow Sharia courts?
i clearly stated that if Sharia law is applied only to civil matters then i would not be opposed to it. so my position is clear - some special allowances should be made in the west, and some special allowances should be made in muslim countries (starting with me being allowed to have a sip of water in my car).
i am consistent - are you? (not sure since you have not said whether you agree or disagree with the rules here).
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"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I
Clear, so lets look at this:
A non-Muslims women's husband abuses her, he's arrested and taken to prison. She's offered counseling by the government, and he's tried and sentenced to 3 years in prison + anger management.
A Muslim women's husband abuses her, the cops give her and her husband the choice of what court they wants to go to, so, being Muslim they go to Shraih. The court sentences the man to go to anger management classes and then lets him go home with his wife. Where he has the opportunity to abuse her again.
I'm sorry, is that not unfair???
on Friday afternoon and you will see entire area is littered. I have seen ppl drinking
Go to Hamad Hospital open your eyes WIDELY and watch
how many are drinking
There are many other establishment their pantries are functioning.
...the UK is "... is altering its legal system to be more inclusive" where as most others will not!
Let's not get emotional. let's try and understand the pros and cons..
100% correct.
and yet a week or two ago, the violent disgusting acts of 4 british youth resulted in a Qatari being murdered and many muslims on this site declaring that the west was racist.
no one is trying to be more inclusive than some western countries (SOME) - so much so that it leads to emotional debates like this one.
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"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I
There is a radical muslim movement in the UK.
She is not calling ALL muslims radicals!
Many of my muslim friends are disgusted at how much the British legal system has bowed to radicals!
Amoud, you should know that it is not the majority moderate muslims that have pushed for this!
Yes Amoud, the British court did implement it, and I don't disagree with that, I disagree with the fact that they allowed these courts to try CRIMINAL domestic abuse cases. Frankly I think it shows the unimportance of women in the eyes of the British government as well.
Withnail, heres a kicker, I am western and a muslim and I CANT DRINK WATER IN MY CAR EITHER?
Is it any different for me here than it is for you? Whats your point?
Did I say all Muslims were radicals?? And of course there are radical groups of Christians and Jews! Why do you think there's the Jewish court as well?? The fact of the matter is, in any group anywhere in any country it's often the radicals that speak out the most and unfortunately they become the voice for the whole group, even if most of the group don't agree.
QT my friend, it was the British system that wanted to implement Sharia law, and they are the ones who allowed it.
Gypsy... are you saying that there are no fundamentalists Christians or Jews in the UK? or anywhere for that fact? What does that have to do with anything... my point here is why do you always tie muslims with radicals or some other derogatory term?
Do you think that generalizing these "radicals" (and remember, the same women you are "helping" are the same ones you are also critisizing)to include all muslims in the UK is not a bit far fetched? Because they have decided to set up and use Sharia courts this is a radical movement?
Want a new cause? Sponsor a radical muslim child in Africa.
:)
wow guys, arguing gypsy about this issue will cost your day finished in front of QL, leave this confused lady alone, you wont get a balanced answer from her.
Gypsy's anti-islam record has been clear sometime in QL. Gypsy have you ever intended or tried to look is Islam different glasses then you do now?
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Clear, put yourself in the mind of an abused woman, do you really think she's in the mindframe not to get pushed around by her husband or other family to choose a Shariah court even if that's not what she wants.
if sharia law is applied as Brit said above, then fine. it certainly should not apply to criminal matters, and if that is the case then why not try it.
HOWEVER, i find it rich that it's the westerners accused of being hypocrites. clearly the UK is trying very hard to accommodate its muslim population.
i can't even drink a bottle of water in my car this month, while a western country is altering its legal system to be more inclusive, and it's the west who are hypocrites?
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"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I
Salax the "fuss" is that rules are supposed to apply to everyone. If you have different sets of rules in a country that apply to different people, then it would create chaos. Perhaps you should read a book or something before you comment on these topics.
courts personally! They are my friends but I don't agree with the system!
People who come to Britain and want British Citizenship should abide by British law, not get citizenship, then adopt a different legal system!
Simple as!
Brit, I think everyone should mind if a citizen of its country is treated differently. Inheritance, for example, should not be decided by religion but by the country's laws. Plain and simple.
Why does it have to affect me personally, why can't I be worried for the women who will be subjected to these laws. And Amoud are you saying there are no radical groups of Muslims and they aren't very vocal, especially in the UK?
OK, I get it now, if I am just visiting a country and not a citizen then being judged for crimes in a different manner is ok.
You are contradicting yourself, you are looking for justice for all and then state it is different because they are British citizens. Does that make sense?
And you all never even realized Sharia law was being used in the UK until you were told, see how much it affects your liberties? As soon as anything related to Islam comes up it is automatically radicals and fundamentalists. To be honest it is a bit sickening and hypocrytical from a bunch of un-biased educated people who live in a muslim country.
I think we are getting carried away here.
These courts are meant to deal with such issues as dispute arbitration, family issues, marriage and divorce. However, they do not supercede the legal courts of the UK. For instance, divorce must be obtained through a British court. All this court does is to "arbitrate".. Try and resolve issues between the couples if possible.
As a Jewish respresentative said regarding the Beth Din courts - "Why should anyone care, after all, what minorities are doing in the private sphere as long as it doesn’t break the law?"
Are non-muslim Brits also going to be judged (criminal and non criminal) by British law while in a Muslim country?
Or is it only one way?
Because the Muslim lobby, especially the vocal radical groups, are becoming very strong, and something has to be done to quiet them. This is a step in that direction.
Now that Mother England has it....won't be long before Aust does. Was hoping Aust would respect Aboringal laws before accepting others...sigh
I may be blonde but I am wise
smile lots laugh more
Personally I think that was pretty low!
No realsomeone I would consider people who radicals who try and establish Shariah law in Britain.
It isnt surprising according to gypsy's record, she refers radicals to anyone who follows the religion of Islam... so understand it this way.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Clear, I'm saying 9 times out of 10 the woman won't get a choice on which system they want to be judged under, and as a CRIMINAL offence, domestic abuse should be judged under the criminal law of the UK not Shariah law.
The Pakistani community that we are discussing in the UK are British citizens!
Exactly Amoud, if it isn't enforced here, why should it be enforced in the UK?? Obviously there's serious flaws with the system or it would be enforced.
OK, seperation of law is not OK.
Tell me, has anyone been lashed here for being caught drunk? Thats the Sharia punishment here for public drunkeness.
Has anyone of you ladies been stopped at the airport here if you are travelling with your kids and denied exit because their fathers arent with them? Thats the law here and it is imposed on the Qatari women.
It goes on and on... as expats you are afforded little liberties in which the locals and the muslim communities are not. If Sharia law were enforced here to its full extent you may all be singing a different tune about this unjust "parallel legal system"
When you see things in positive light then you can only appreciate its usefulness.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Separation of law for one group of people is plain wrong.
It promotes segregation of the people and its justice system, is expensive and time consuming to maintain, and costs the tax-payer even more when the failures of the "new" system needs to be "corrected".
The British legal system may not be perfect, but has been drafted, updated and implmented by legal experts for centuries!
I guess you're going to tell me we shouldn't have bothered as it is all written in "THE BOOK"
Am I missing something here?
Clearbluesky do you pay attention to the UK news to realize the current situation with Muslims in the UK?
Clear... why are you referring to Muslims and Sharia courts as radicals?
clearbluesky: with all due respect to ur views , i do not believe that "They went for it, coz they thought it was fair" is the way a justice system should work.
"The other case of domestic abuse, if the wife went to Arbitration and accepted the verdict, why should we say she shouldn't be." Again, what made her accept the verdict is beyond me!!
I'm not attacking the law Amoud, I'm attacking the judges who I believe will be biased and the stupid decision to allow these courts to judge domestic abuse cases.
True that repeat offenders should be kept away from their wives but remember folks, when we point a finger there are 3 pointing right back at us.
I don't think it is productive to attack Sharia law here, perhaps the attack should go to the ones who allowed it implementation. Also, do not be deluded, Sharia law is not always in the favor of the man, and to understand Sharia rulings you have to understand the whole Islamic lifestyle and teachings, hence the reason it is not applied to non Muslims.
The inheritance issue is a very simple one in Islam but a lengthy one. If you apply logic to the teachings (and not some fundamentalists approach) there is an answer to just about everything.
Amoud: I believe,a deterrant penalty is as much or even more important than counselling in case of an abusive partner..hav ne'er heard of counselling bringin about long lasting changes in the behavioral patterns of such spouses! I am all for counselling, but practically speaking,a man who is into abuse would be more inclined to remember a hard rap on the knuckle than a counsellor's word!
I would rather see these men kept from their wives then be allowed to go home.
Realsomeone: Is it true that(in sharia) they need four male witnesses to testify for a rape case to be filed? Is a woman's testimony valid?
Hold on a sec.... before everyone gets all worked up... #1 if you arent muslim it wont affect you. #2 it is British authorities who chose which cases can be tried by Sharia, not the arbitrators.
I agree that abusing women is the most cowardly crime besides child abuse... but look at it this way. The men are ordered to go to anger managment and seek therapy. Idealistically this should all be followed up by a case worker. Do you think that perhaps trying to repair the root of the problem through councilling is better than a restraining order and a few nights in jail? A slap on the hand with a hard stick seems to be the justice of choice but who are we kidding? How many abuse offenders get out of jail only to kill their partners? No society is perfect.
Adey said it very eloquantly in another thread.... you have to make sure your decisions are based on reason rather than mematic dogma.
Sorry, but I think you missed the point completely!
Sure they would, because they're bowing to pressure from radical groups.
All in one, Sharia law is designed to be ruled in this world and its justice if the correct people are made judges.
no one is abused, i dont know the british laws and i dont think they would have opened sharia court if they knew there would be abuse.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
oops! I copy pasted before seeing gypsy's post! :-p
Right!
"In the six cases of domestic violence, Siddiqi said the judges ordered the husbands to take anger management classes and mentoring from community elders. There was no further punishment.
In each case, the women subsequently withdrew the complaints they had lodged with the police and the police stopped their investigations. "
The judgement did not "comply" with existing British law!
See, if the women decided to bow down to her abusing husband that is her weakness it doesnt have anything to do with the sharia court, if she goes to the sharia and correct evidence is in place he will face justice as any other case.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
ROFL, you're living in a dream world Realsomeone, or you think it's perfectly ok to beat your wife, because there's no way these courts will ever side fairly with the women. In fact, read the article:
"In the six cases of domestic violence, Siddiqi said the judges ordered the husbands to take anger management classes and mentoring from community elders. There was no further punishment.
In each case, the women subsequently withdrew the complaints they had lodged with the police and the police stopped their investigations."
Whereas domestic violence is criminal under Britsh law right?
:)
You thing an abused woman won't bow to the pressure of her husband for which court she's going to go to?
The Beth Din courts are used by Jews to resolve civil disputes, covering issues as diverse as business and divorce.
of course, 100% sure if the correct judges with Islamic Knowledge is there.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
So you really believe these Sharia courts are going to treat women justly in domestic abuse cases realsomeone?
I just don't agree with them most of the time!
I think its move to the right direction. Sharia is justice and either women and man will not face injustice in sharia law if implemented in the correct way.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
:)
with domestic violence as it does not deal with ANY criminal cases!
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
Because it's not just civil cases it's being allowed to rule on domestic abuse cases too.
Exactly my thoughts, QT. The British Legal and Administration systems have served as a reference for quite a few countries while drafting their constituition. Personally speaking, I believe that every citizen should be judged as per one single system that reflects the traditional values and culture of whichever country they reside in. But I guess this p'ticular view is quite out of fashion nowadays.
Jus cant imagine living under a system where I will be governed by relegious law (of ANY relegion).
How long before the courts have automony?
It's only going to be a matter of time!
I can't believe in the case above the daughters received half of what the sons got!
What happened to living by the laws of the land? Why is it one rule for one and another for someone else!
Sure, the police will present the evidence and the courts will decide based on some passage in the Quran. The police will have as much say as they do in any domestic abuse case.
In cases of domestic violence, the system is open to abuse and it is most likely that it will be the women who "are going to end uo getting the sahft every time" as so eloquently described by Gypsy.
These women may get presured to accept the power of the Sharia court only to find out that they've ruled against here!
What's the appeal process? ...and can the decisions be overturned by the high courts? ...if that happens, there'll be huge troubling consequences!
I agree. however, the article clearly states that
these cases were resolved "working in tandem with the police investigations."
I have no issues with them finding in cases of financial complaints or divorce settlements IF the women agrees, however I don't think they should be solving domestic abuse cases, those poor women are going to end up getting the shaft every time.
I'm sorry to hear this.