Who Were History's Great Leaders
By realsomeone •
The Weekly News magazine "TIME" dated July 15, 1974, carried a selection of opinions by various historians, writers, military men, businessmen and others on the subject: "Who Were History's Great Leaders?" Jules Masserman, a United States psychoanalyst gave the criteria wherewith to judge. He said:
"LEADERS MUST FULFILL THREE FUNCTIONS:-
(1) Provide for the well-being of the led,
(2) Provide a social organization in which people feel relatively secure and
(3) Provide them with one set of beliefs."
So who do you regard history's greatest leader?
I would choose, Jesus, Budha, Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul II, Delai Lama and probably Saladin
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Who Were History's Great Leaders?
Aristotle?
Charlemagne?
Albert Einstein?
B. Mussolini?
Adolf Hitler?
Saddam Hussien?
W. Bush?
they're just a crack of nuts....
no one yet beats Darude in the entire QL History...:DD
~~~~
wolfie... peace to you!!
~~~proud to be from where i was i shall return with~~~
http://www.thelandofpromise.com/southcot/0soc-index.html
yeah that is why i used "may" i knew we wont agree all, tallg yeah i like that too. in fact i first didnt get the details from that article but it was interesting finding.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
You may agree realsomeone, but we all may not! Try and remember that not everyone thinks like you. That's what makes the world so interesting!
Anyways, it was an interesting topic, and I love the fact that the original article from 1974 is available online.
realsomeone, how can you say "since we all may agree". That's exactly what is not the case.
simply the leaders of the first didnt seem to me to be History's greatest leaders since we all may agree that the leaders in the second will be a much better choice then the first.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Hi. Realsome
My first impression was, You were taking about something other than religion today for a change.
Iam mistaken
Realsomeone, in the interest of a fiery thread you made the right choice. The leaders of the first category would hardly stirr up as many emotions as the leaders of the second batch. And you knew that. Right?
MD see why i didnt take the first definion
1.MORTIMER ADLER, U.S. philosopher: In Aristotelian terms, the good leader must have ethos, pathos and logos. The ethos is his moral character, the source of his ability to persuade. The pathos is his ability to touch feelings, to move people emotionally. The logos is his ability to give solid reasons for an action, to move people intellectually. By this definition, Pericles of Athens was a great leader.
Winston Churchill, Thomas Jefferson, or almost any of the founding fathers —Adams, Madison, Washington. Perhaps Lincoln, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson as well.
this man's picks are not all the great leaders of the world that most of us mentioned and are eligible for debate. as for why i take the other
"JULES MASSERMAN, U.S. psychoanalyst: Leaders must fulfill three functions —provide for the well-being of the led, provide a social organization in which people feel relatively secure, and provide them with one set of beliefs. People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense. People like Gandhi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander, Caesar and Hitler on the other, are leaders in the second and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone. Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohammed, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree, Moses did the same"
this guy made a reasonable choices.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
There is no doubt Hitler was a leader.
I understand some people's personal opinion is that he was a maniac, an as*hole or a murderer - you are probably right. No one is debating whether what he did was good or bad.
However, no one can deny that if he was not a great leader, he would not have managed to accomplish what he did. This is what leadership is about. Who said leadership can only be used for accomplishing good?
And going further (a parenthesis here to disclose that I am not pro Hitler), you know how it works when you commit a crime, your past and what was done to may have lead to you acting the way you did and could be major decision makers in the outcome of the trial. I'm saying that sometimes people do things out of reasons they believe to be the truth. Anyway, he did a lot of bad things but we also need to think of the things that led him to behave the way he did.
I'm too sleepy to carry on here. Ywawn. Will not dream with Hitler! LOL
I would say Moses...too...cause he single handedly led the people out of Slavery into the "Promised Land"
Conquerers are all Murderers......they all have murdered people close to them, their relatives, their friends etc...Hitler, Alexander, Genghis Khan.
Ghenghis Khan conquered the most land on the face of the earth till date and his was the only kingdom to expand after his death at 27. Off the Mongol Empire came the Mughal Empire.
Ex Jew from Bangladesh ??????
good for you, salax, otherwise you might have been caught up here: http://www.pictures.izieu.com/
good for you, salax, otherwise you might have been caught up here: http://www.pictures.izieu.com/
how did you escape, salax?
If Hitler was so great, hands up who wants him back.
now you're talking, salax85: "Plus he did all that he could for his people like killin the Jews." I always suspected that this was the reason why you guys love Hitler. LOL.
I think Noah was the greatest leader. Without him the human race wouldn't exist (according to the "holy" books).
Mussolini
Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon.
Doug Larson
ha ha, tallg, the chairman of the German Bundesbahn also makes the trains run on time (as long as there is no strike).
Plus Hitler made the trains run on time, the sign of a truly great leader!
well despite the fact that Hitler was a tyrant in the land , he did care for the well being of his folks, he gave everybody work, he got the kids of the streets, he started mothers day ......
he was a good leader at first ....
But of course for me nobody can be any better then the Prophet Mohammad sallahu alayhi wa salam
it's okayy, tallg. I was just wondering why realsomeone did not take the first definitions.
MD - you're comparing two different parts of the article!!!
no problem, sir.
MD that is wrong i didnt changed the requirements, that statement was from one of the questioned men and the one i mentioned is from another.
in your case, prophet muhammed (pbuh) qualifies straight directly too.
compare the two and consider why i take the one in the thread.
1.MORTIMER ADLER, U.S. philosopher: In Aristotelian terms, the good leader must have ethos, pathos and logos. The ethos is his moral character, the source of his ability to persuade. The pathos is his ability to touch feelings, to move people emotionally. The logos is his ability to give solid reasons for an action, to move people intellectually. By this definition, Pericles of Athens was a great leader.
Winston Churchill, Thomas Jefferson, or almost any of the founding fathers —Adams, Madison, Washington. Perhaps Lincoln, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson as well.
2."JULES MASSERMAN, U.S. psychoanalyst: Leaders must fulfill three functions —provide for the well-being of the led, provide a social organization in which people feel relatively secure, and provide them with one set of beliefs. People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense. People like Gandhi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander, Caesar and Hitler on the other, are leaders in the second and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone. Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohammed, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree, Moses did the same"
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
It is interesting how realsomeone changed the requirements from this: "In Aristotelian terms, the good leader must have ethos, pathos and logos. The ethos is his moral character, the source of his ability to persuade. The pathos is his ability to touch feelings, to move people emotionally. The logos is his ability to give solid reasons for an action, to move people intellectually." to that :"LEADERS MUST FULFILL THREE FUNCTIONS:-
(1) Provide for the well-being of the led,
(2) Provide a social organization in which people feel relatively secure and
(3) Provide them with one set of beliefs."
Why did he do that??
Going by a quote from the article, thanks tallg, Hitler may technically be considered to have strong leadership skills:
"In Aristotelian terms, the good leader must have ethos, pathos and logos. The ethos is his moral character, the source of his ability to persuade. The pathos is his ability to touch feelings, to move people emotionally. The logos is his ability to give solid reasons for an action, to move people intellectually."
However, to refer to him as GREAT - blah. Surely there must be a sense of humanitarian sensitivity. And he had nought.
"Quit hanging on to the handrails . . . Let go. Surrender. Go for the ride of your life. Do it every day." Melody Beattie
Page 2
JAMES GAVIN, U.S. lieutenant general (ret.): Among leaders who have made the greatest impact through the ages, I would consider Mohammed, Jesus Christ, maybe Lenin, possibly Mao. As for a leader whose qualities we could most use now, I would choose John F. Kennedy.
Page 3 again
WILLIAM McNEILL, U.S. historian (University of Chicago): If you measure leadership by impact, then you would have to name Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Confucius, the great prophets of the world. Among political leaders, Alexander may have been the greatest. He brought the Greek and Oriental civilizations together, and it's hard to conceive of this happening without his personal intervention. Lenin and Woodrow Wilson, who set the terms for political discussion. But both pale before two 19th century intellectual giants, Sigmund Freud and Lenin's own mentor, Karl Marx, the secular prophets of our time.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Page 3
"JULES MASSERMAN, U.S. psychoanalyst: Leaders must fulfill three functions —provide for the well-being of the led, provide a social organization in which people feel relatively secure, and provide them with one set of beliefs. People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense. People like Gandhi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander, Caesar and Hitler on the other, are leaders in the second and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone. Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohammed, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree, Moses did the same"
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Hitler mentioned several times.
Here's the original article from the July 15th 1974 issue of Time; http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,879377,00.html
Oryx, Hitler said this on almost every occasion that he spoke to the public. He said it on the radio and he had it printed in the "Voelkischer Beobachter". And Goebbels made sure that the propaganda machine conveyed the message to every German speaking individual.
tallg, agreed.
Agreed, he failed to be a great leader to 'all germans', but he still succeeded in being a great leader to his 'Nazi friends'.
When and where did Hitler say that....???
and the criteria allows for Stalin et al.
tallg it is a great essay title to see how perceptive folk are.
and Mother Theresa, great leaders in my book
Oryx, Hitler did not say:"I am the leader of my NAZI friends." He said:"I am the leader of all Germans", including Austria, for example.
Glad you see my point Oryx. I thought I was going mad!
Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and Ghandi....
Well you've changed your argument now, MD. Originally you said someone who was a cold blooded murderer couldn't be a great leader.
Anyway, you could still see he was a great leader of the Nazis, as opposed to the whole country.
But his followers were 'the led' the criteria doesn't specify the ones that weren't led.
that is the whole point the criteria is not water tight so you can accept these terrible dictators.
Martin Luther King
" i have a dream..."
tallg, Hitler did not "provide for the well-being of the led". He made sure that his NAZI followers were fine, but he made millions of Germans suffer. So he does not adhere to function (1). The "led" were 80 million people. He only took care of a fraction of those.
Ali Ibn Abi Talib (3)
--------
Who the hell needs pot when u got Cookie dough :D
Its interesting how many differing viewpoints there were , but many of the same names kept popping up..
It seems that Hitler can be regarded as a great leader.. I was also surprised by Mao, whom I had forgotten.
The fact is that a Leader has to be able to lead from the front, get buy in from the people and energize his followers..
We will all have differing opinions on ourd favourite leaders and their virtues..
You got the point, Stratty. Only people who are in a miserable situation ask for a "leader". Can you imagine that Bill Gates asks for a "leader"?
MD - so you now agree that Fatcat's suggestion of Hitler wasn't as stupid as you first thought?
Who gets freed first? Ireland, Iraq or Tibet?
Eidi Amin
"Drink Beer Save Water"
Fat Cat has a point...many dictators fufil that...
Clever kitty..
Stalin does and Tito and all the other commies I can't be bothered to name.
So do all cult leaders..
the criteria could apply to many.
Magic Dragon... Only if this psychologist is right. Maybe Im in need of some leadership...
You could argue that someone who is capable of leading people to commit atrocities is a better leader than someone who leads people to do good stuff.
No, Stratty, the leader will tell you what is "good" and "bad". That's function number 3.
Isnt 'good' ultimately determined by 'what we want'. We organise collectively to determine and label things 'good' that might be in conflict with individual, specific desires. But there must be an ultimate force of desire behind each item labelled 'good'.
Thus said, how does a leader become 'good' without being 'nice'? (Nice having a common starting point of excluding mass murder.) Or shall we say that being an 'authentic' leader does not require being nice? Authentic meaning is problematic, if all terms are purposeful and socially-bound.
Maybe Buddha did.
unfortunatly, nobody fullfill the 3 criterias
Don't wait for the last judgment it takes place every day.
"Albert Camus "
Being nice has nothing to do with being a good leader!!!!!
To tell you the truth, DaRuDe, no. Saddam was a nice guy.
He influenced 80% of the world and its history.
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
Oh wasnt i supposed to be called insane too here??
[img_assist|nid=73057|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
DaRuDe, Saddam is peanuts compared to Hitler.
"Having people dying for your cause is the sign of a leader" was not a function put up by realsomeone, gypsy.
MD - Being a leader and being a cold blooded murderer aren't mutually exclusive! Just cos he did bad things doesn't mean he wasn't a great leader. The criteria list doesn't say "must be good".
Then i will say Saddam Hussain too
Give it a try now
[img_assist|nid=73057|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
Marx just wrote books, wasn't it?
I vote Bill Nicholson!
Well, if somebody calls a cold blooded murderer a leader then he is insane in my view.
Instead of calling Fatcat "insane" you could have said "wrong". You couldnt agree with her and showed you hatred callin her insane.
Should i start with YOU now here.
[img_assist|nid=73057|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
Mohammed and Jesus were there leaders Magic Dragon. Having people dying for your cause is the sign of a leader.
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
Alexa - Pl. don't nominate me OK :)
Ban Spoon Feeding not Me
Little johney is the History's Greatest Leader :)
Ban Spoon Feeding not Me
Did I say that they have any "leaders", gypsy?
How many Muslims and Christians were killed in the effort to spread the religion?
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
Do you know how many Germans were killed in WW II? Do you know how many properties in Germany were destroyed? If that is "well-being of the led" then I don't know.
Sure he did, people who were members of the Nazi party were very well off.
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
Martin Luther the King, Gandhi and Rosa Parks. Those are among people I admire.
Salam
Hitler did not fulfil function (1)!
FatCat's right. Adolf Hitler and Karl Marx both meet the criteria.
Visit www.qatarhappening.com
Magic Dragon, why am I insane?
Hitler did fulfill all of those functions in the question...
The Prophet Mohammed must be up there..
I suppose the popes could be there (not RP) and lastly
mother Teresa..
that was not the criteria, if that was it ( I joined QL around April 2006) but i think Jules Masserman has created the criteria for the world's greatest leaders.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Alexa is history: 1 year and 21 weeks QL member!
Alexa its about history not the present and not the future.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Fatcat is insane!
Bushbaby
"Quit hanging on to the handrails . . . Let go. Surrender. Go for the ride of your life. Do it every day." Melody Beattie
Adolf Hitler :P
MOHAMMAD IBN ABDULLAH IBN ABDUllMOTALEB (Salaa Allah A`layhe Wasalam)
Jules Masserman concluded that history's greatest leaders where Prophet Muhammed and Moses (peace be upon them).
I agree.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi