Doha vs Dubai

"I fail to see how a country's economy becomes a valid reason to invade a country and try to control it's assets. I would agree that many conflicts are caused by this but that doesn't make it any more justifiable."

To the vast majority of the populace it isn't, thats why they needed a PR campaign painting the Iraqis as evil to justify invading the country.

As I have said on earlier occasions. The First Gulf War was fought over oil.

It was not about global stability, it was for the benefit of the US and their allies.

Having supplied Iraq with all the arms and other supplies it needed to attack and make war with Iran (who were rendering the US ineffective in the region), the US underestimated Sadam. It was when Kuwait seeked redress for the loans made to Iraq during that period, that Iraq decided to invade Kuwait. Whether they (Iraq) had the tacit approval of the US for the invasion is debatable.

Once in control, or so they thought, of Iraq's oil and subsequently no longer totally dependant upon Saudi oil the US commenced accusing Saudi of supporting terrorism.

These accusations were later (when the Iraq strategy started going belly up) toned down and Saudi oil supplies were again seen as critical.

I fail to see how a country's economy becomes a valid reason to invade a country and try to control it's assets. I would agree that many conflicts are caused by this but that doesn't make it any more justifiable.

I realize that super, but the majority of the American and Western populace doesn't quite understand or care about economic and political reasons, that's why Bush had to blather on about WMD's for this Gulf War. Being able to justify your war to voters is very important. And PR came into that quite heavily. PR also played a huge part in the media during that war, they allowed CNN to have these fancy shots of bombs taking off, instead of allowing them to see the actual results of the war (bodies and such). PR was very important during that war and every war since WWII.

The 1st gulf war was fought for oil but not for anyone's particular profit.

The war was fought and rightfully so for global stability. It was completely unaaceptable that a volatile and unreliable leader such as SH could have control over such a vast proportion of the world's energy reserves. Saudi and Qatar could easily have followed Kuwait and there could have been repercussions so intense that a global war could have resulted.

Clearly the american economy was an important consideration for the invasion but what that is a perfectly valid reason for a country to go to war and is in fact the cause of the majority of conflicts.

Public support is important in any war DG but the US did not spend billions of dollars invading Iraq to punish Iraq for killing a few babies fruadulently brought to their attention or not.

i think it's probably premature to expect any GCC state to embark on an industrial revolution. Yes..financial resources are there..but resources on every other level are weak to non-existent at best.

Again..for whatever limited resources Emiratis have had to work with..I still think they have done an impressive job.

I am quoting myself again..

Dubai is a success story on tourism mainly due to the attitude of its people, its government, its service providers, police etc..On those counts its useless to even compare...

After living years in Dubai when I landed in Doha..I was extremely frustrated for an year...Dubai treats everyone fairly..Locals have NO advantages in Dubai other than govt. handouts...In a traffic accident you are sure that a fair decision will be made...the Policeman will speak English ...if you dont understand arabic...

I think its pointless to compare govt., police, Etisalat and other services...

Again..all of Dubai initiatives have not succeeded though..Most of the Media and internet city buildings are occupied by architects,traders,builders and suppliers..despite the neon signs on top of major international corporations..

Microsoft..Oracle..Neon Signs? yes..Stocking and marketing of software and services? yes...Any kind of software writing or research..Content production..? NO..

The crazy rent and the crazy drivers are my only two real complaints about Doha. :(

I know a guy working for the Ahli Bank here in Doha and they are paying him Qr2500 housing allowance!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Most companies here offer housing allowances that by no means could be considered reasonable compared to rents

It cannot be compared. Doha lacks the attitude, the open mind and the motivation.

Another thing, though it's just as bad if not worse in Dubai, LOWER RENT!!! Not everyone here is an oil baron, how can you expect people to move to Dubai or Doha when they can't afford housing!

ONe more thing I'd like to add that has to do with the civilization of the community, that is "Law enforcement". How many times do you guys see a land cruiser pulled over and getting a ticket???

How many times do we see people passing red lights and getting away with it.

I feel soooooo bitter every time i have to stop at the stupid signals that replaced the Sadd round-about...some stupid people are still trying to figure out how to use them !!!!!!

I can't believe anything could be soooo difficult to understand...the "green" arrows would point left (can't miss the green colour when the whole street is as dark!!!",yet you would see this man/woman stopping as if it's damn RED !!!! This happens ALLLLL the time and i NEVER and i mean NEVER see anyone pulled over and getting a ticket.

You usually see the poor policemen roasting under the sun trying desperately to fix the traffic congestions...that's why there's no one left to enforce the law in the city.

very true, DG. I think Dubai's culture has evolved drastically in the past 10 years and its' people's attitude towards business has been influenced greatly as a result of this.

Not to mention that the costs of running operations from Dubai are only a fraction of those when running business operations from anywhere else.

Mocha and TG, the reason those businesses are moving there is two-fold, one is because tourism has not only made Dubai a hot spot in the GCC, but because it has also changed business style in the city to be more in tune with Western and North East Asian, business style. I'm pretty sure that when you talk to someone in Dubai about business you don't hear "Inshallah, we will get right back to you." Once Doha starts doing business the way the rest of the world does business, you'll see a difference here.

I would beg to differ. Yes, tourism definitely contributes greatly to Dubai's booming economy..but it would be wrong to assume that tourism constitues its' only source of revenue. Don't ignore the fact that Dubai has turned into a vital commercial and economic centre in the area. Many corporations are choosing Dubai to establish new headquarters in the middle east. Oracle, Microsoft, Canon, Acer, etc.. are all examples for multi-million dollar corporations who have taken advantage of Dubai's somewhat lenient governmental regulations to expand their business.

I think Dubai is a good role model for other GCC states. While oil will eventually run out..an economy built on solid ground will however continue to make itself useful.

You need to visit Dubai to know that your ideas have already been implemented there(visa on arrival at Dubai airport for dentists..LOL) ..and Construction moves fast and clean there..

I would not under-estimate Doha though..Dubai is surviving on tourism and creating many bubbles as they can..but if we compare,Doha has moved slow but steady..

Example: Dubai Knowledge village is a group of College Shops offering Degrees...

So is Qatar Foundation..but the quality of infrastructure and facilities are better at Qatar Foundation Campuses...(If we agree with the idea that College life is only classrooms, not research and scholarship..)

Similarly many of Dubai's initiatives have succeeded only in media presentations....Dubai internet and media cities are examples....Dubai is a success story on tourism mainly due to the attitude of its people, its government, its service providers, police etc..On those counts its useless to even compare...

I've never been to Dubai so I can't actually make a fair comparison here but there are a few things that i think would make a big difference and are so simple and easy:

1-Keep construction sites going for 24/7 with 3 shifts/day instead of the poor asian workers working their asses in the heat and resting at night when it's best to finish the job....this way the HMC junction could have been finished in 6 months instead of 2 years!!!!

2-Recruit the ones who are best for the job (Any job), whether this job an accountant, a doctor or an engineer or whatever, just put the right person in the right place and not the dearest person in the highest place.

3-Do one thing at a time and finish it right, and when you master what you're doing you can start broadnind your scope and do more at the same time...e.g.don't dig the whole city and then start complaining of bad traffic and tight time-schedule.

4-Make the best use of your resources; Qatar has one of the longest coasts i've ever seen...why not use it for building many many resorts, hotels and beautiful public beaches???Encourage big hotels to come and invest in these areas. How come Qatar has not even one single public beach that could be used by families...N.B.I don't consider the Sealine as a beach,the miserable room is now for over Qr.2000/night!!! this is a joke !!!!

5-Always think 20 years ahead, don't build a road with two lanes then 5 years from now realise this is a traffic congestion area...think how you want this street or this building or this mall to look like 20 years from now...keeping in mind that population growth increases geometrically, i.e. 20 years from now the pupolation of Qatar might be over 10 million !!!!

It was a downright lie! As was the rest of the stories from the US and Britain

This decision to invade Iraq is most defintely a con. The '91 invation was a PR achievement. Jassim that girl was good, she cried and everything, talking about those dead babies, that weren't dead. Brilliant. :P

The decsiion to invade Iraq was always a con and had more to do with oil supplies than anything else. Ask Cheney!

There were so many stories going round in the First Gulf War. We were issued gas masks by the British Embassy only to be asked for £80 per mask at the end of the conflict. This cost and they didn't even issue the water bottles. The Tom & Jerry toyshop on the Gulf Link Road (from the British Embassy to Jaidah Flyover) were selling the masks with a long trunk and canister for QR 2,000. The cartridge lasted for just 12 hours when a gas attack last nearer 24 hours.

those that remained in Qatar were greeted like long lost friends in the souk.

But u have to admit that girl was good. She was not in Q8 when it all happened but still she had so many stories to tell :P

More PR and advertising for Doha??? So that people learn where it is and come over? Oh no, please, please don't. We can't cope with any more traffic!!

Sigh

Actually Jassim, in the first Gulf War PR played a huge part, the Kuwait government hired the largest firm in the US to get the story into the media. The firm went as far as making up stories and getting the daughter of the Kuwati ambassador to the US to play a nurse who "witnessed" Iraqis killing babies. A year after Gulf War I the company was charged with fraud and fined. :)

I was planning a more relaxing job for u like sitting there doing nothing but then I remembered that this was my job :P OK, u get the pencils but no big office.. If all I get is 2X2Ms then no way u will get anything bigger :(

N head hunting?! trust me, nothing in the CVs I seen relates to heads in any way :P One guy puts good on-line details talking about how much he will benefit our place n do u know what was in the attachment as CV? His pic playing cards!! Now at least he is honest :P

only if i get a big office with many MANY pencils to sharpen :p

oh you're not in this alone..i had to screen over 700+ CV's to fill 50 positions in my company. it certainly was no joyride! good luck head hunting!

What u lack in experience u have in the area of sense of humor :) So u may pass cause we really have a funny n crazy place here :P But I need to see ur pic b4 I make the final decision :) OPS, I meant ur CV n not pic ;)

Going home as am done with all the CVs :) At least I selected 5 out of 187 n in these days, this is a good number of selection :P

oh i'm uselsss, jassim. i've only been working for less than 2 years post-graduation

thanks for the vote of confidence though :D

Moch, we r looking for a planner n u may fit the bill :) What type of a job u do?

not trying to move things to politics as I sure hate this subject, but I think PR had nothing to do with the US invasion of Iraq except if u r talking about how Q8 had advertised how much oil Iraq had? :X

what you just said jassim doesn't necessarily negate any of what either DG or myself said. You are right..leaders usually do state an overall vision then tend to delegate to other people. But a good leader would set a general framework with a clear set of objectives, goals, deadlines, etc.. while simultaneously keeping their plan flexible enough to overcome any unexpected challenges should they arise. hmm...i'm getting an image of Sheikh Mohd Ben Rashid ruler of Dubai all of a sudden..:)

Actually I'm going to rephrase, there is nothing stopping you from becoming the next Dubai if that's what Qatar wants. And it isn't that you have to spend lots of money, you have to spend money wisely, advertising and PR is never ill spent money, just ask Kuwait, thats how they got the UN to agree to invade Iraq. ;)

The leader will state an overall vision which is something he would want to see in so many yrs. N I think we have that, which as someone said it, to be like Dubai in Business n tourism, the US in politics n Media, n so much more. We have reached some of that cause it required one man to look into it n now we r the highest developed country in relation to income n our name is stated everywhere when it comes to politics n media (Al-Jazeera). However, what I been talking about is building the infrastructure n making the country appealing to the outsiders, or the insiders. This where the departments of each governmental agencies will have to have their own visions n plans. We know where we r asked to go, but we just don't know how to get there. N here where I agree with you that we need a leadership n expertise of others who done it b4 n we have to spend much money doing it :)

Now stop getting me in trouble :P

I agree with Mocha, there is nothing stopping Doha from becoming even better than Dubai in another 10 to 15 years (given construction times) the only thing that is, and this is not an insult to the Qatari people, is that they don't quite understand "good business" yet. You have the money, you just haven't figured out were to put it, but you're getting there. :)

i dont think doha lacks the human or financial resources as much as a lack of a strong leader with a clear vision of what needs to be done and how/who/when to do it

I was there in 1978, darn am old :(, n trust me if I say, Doha was like NY to Dubai then. No continuous electricity n desert all around with houses made of half bricks n half balm trees leaf. But in the early 80s, Dubai had a vision n a plan, created by some Indian n Western advisors. Those advisors were paid money in sacks n the sky was the limit on expenditure. The end result, as one UAE guy told me, was a 10 yrs master plan. So yes, they started lower than Doha but b4 they started building right n left, they had a plan. Till I c this plan, Doha may spend billions but sadly to say will never be like Dubai :(

i was in the uae back in the late 80's - early 90's. it really wasn't any different than today's doha, jassim. Dubai was like a dessert with only one sky scraper (dubai int'l trade center) and less than 10 years later islands appeared as if of nowhere in the middle of the persian gulf and they're building massive ski slopes in shopping malls!

Qatar has a long way to go n may never get there. I don't say we are not trying but we just lack the vision n planning aspects of the whole matter. We build without knowing where we r going with all such buildings. In addition, we want to be the best without spending much, a combination that will never work. We have ppl in all areas stating that "Why spend much money in bringing an Ad company that will stick a pic onto a paper with some writing under it" forgetting that what u pay for is not the end result but the imagination, skills n experience. Until we have Dubai vision n huge investments and leaving the making of the bread to the baker, we will not get anywhere n we will only build to demolish in few yrs.

So, no, what we r doing these days will not get us even near Ras-Alkhaima, let alone Dubai :P

Well I'll give you my point of view. :)

Doha has a long way to go before in can be considered in the same league as Dubai. Speaking as someone in PR, Advertising and Marketing, Doha and the businesses in it are not savvy enough about the advertising/marketing/pr industry to put themselves on the map.

Take the Marhabra for example, it is a fine tool to use for tourism and business, however look at the advertisements in them, they are horrible. Most of them look like a ten year old could put them together. Why? Because instead of finding an advertising professional and paying for a quality advertisement, they put it together themselves using Microsoft Word. Compare a QP ad (which is done through a firm) to a GDI ad (which is done by themselves), Shell (firm) to Nakilat (themselves).

One of our clients has decided, instead of paying us a reasonable amount of money to create an attractive ad for the Wall Street Journal, they are going to get their receptionist to put together some pictures. Professional.

Qatar tourism doesn't even have a firm, and they don't have any professionals on their staff.

Dubai, on the other hand, has all of the worlds largest advertising firms, and the companies there pay good money to use them, and are reaping the benefits (everyone knows where Dubai is, but how many people know Doha?)

If Doha wants to get noticed than it HAS to start paying for advertising and using quality advertising.