Proving Existence of God to an Atheist.
by Dr. Zakir Naik
CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST
Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though e may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.
My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.
LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD
My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.
If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.
Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.
(You may refer to my article, ‘Concept of God in Islam’, for more details)
QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE
The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.
Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.
If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.
SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?
THEORY OF PROBABILITY
In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.
A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.
Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.
At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.
The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.
Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.
The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.
CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN
The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.
QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE
Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.
But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.
SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD
Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).
Surah Fussilat:
"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"
[Al-Quran 41:53]
I seriously feel that you really need to learn about Islam and Prophet's biography to understand properly, unfortunately you are comparing the events to those days with current age. My humble request to you to visit FANAR or visit the website of www.qfanar.com or islamonline.net to improve your knowledge about Islam.
One need to learn, seek to educate themselve and investigate the history of Quran and Islam since its inception and obviously from correct sources. I am quite sure if you are determined, will definitely acheive what you sought.
Expecting a comment from Gypsy and tallg: felt extremely
surprised that you felt personally attacked, infact it is an attack on untruthful belief of "Atheism" and not on an individual. Hope I'm clear
I never claimed he was an imposter. Wake up!
For all that you know, he probably didn't even claim that he was a Prophet either. It was 1400 years ago! Stories change a lot when not documented properly. Even in today's times, a single press release is interpretted differently by various news channels, just imagine.
I seriously think God, if there one, has better things to do than bother himself if a guy from 6 billion population on earth stepped his correct foot before entering the bathroom or not! And we are only talking about planet earth, less than a tiny dot on the map of entire universe :)
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3000 QL Points
Way to go Ray!
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Victor - I stopped reading your comments when you started being insulting and made it clear that you hadn't properly read everything I'd said previously.
rayyz said Frozen & Qatarkid ...
"We are in 21st century. Replicating any material be it text or photo isn't a big deal in today's times. I'm sure you won't find two versions of Qur'an in 2008.
However, you don't even know what methods were used a 100 years ago to proof-read and re-write a book, let alone surpassing over 13 centuries!"
Rayzz my statements were not based upon 2008 prints. My statement covers all Qurans in arabic, period. Including those that are centuries old, were handwritten and are currently sitting in museums across the globe.
Again your statements demonstrate a willingness to make statements based upon a lack of knowledge on the history of the Quran.
Brother Victor: i don't think Rayyz is calling imposter to Mohammed.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Winn..
The reason I mentioned the Uncertainty Principle, is to show that not only human perception or knowledge, but even the most sophisticated instruments that human beings can devise, have inherent physical limits.
While optical and cognitive illusions show the limits of the human senses, the Uncertainty principle shows the limits of our understanding of the physical universe even with the most advanced of machines.
If we accept this, then there shouldn't be any difficulty in accepting that there could be other realms of existence that we aren't and cannot be aware of, especially if they are governed by laws other than the laws of our own universe.
In a way we are trapped by our own physical limitations and are limited by the laws of the physical universe, which appear to us to be immutable.
This should lead us to be more humble than haughty when we examine the claims of someone who says that he has access to a source of knowledge or knowledge has come to him from a source that is not accessible to us.
Since the claimant of such knowledge is clearly saying that he is getting knowledge from a source that is not accessible to us, then on the face of it, the only way we have of accepting or rejecting his claim, is looking at first of all the claimant himself , i.e. does he have any ulterior motive in making this claim ?
The second option is, to look at the contents of what he is claiming he has recieved from this source of knowledge.
Rayyz..
As regards the incident you've narrated about the Prophet Salllallahu Alayhi wa Sallam, forgetting something from the Qur'an, first of all I'd like to see a reference to this incident, so I can be sure that is from an authentic source.
Assuming that it did occur, all it shows is that the Prophet was very sincere and honest. He never claimed, that he couldn't forget, in fact, the Qur'an has Ayaat, that clearly mention that the Prophet doesn't remember the Qur'an by his own effort, rather it is Allah Ta'ala who makes him remember and he can make him forget it too.
For example, see Surah Al-`Aala (Sanuqriuka falaa Tansaa illa MaShaAllah).
In this case, had the Prophet been an imposter, he would have made some excuse to the companion saying, well you've made a mistake, I am a prophet I never make mistakes or that Allah Ta`ala has now removed this Ayat from the Qur'an. But he didn't do any such thing. On the contrary, he acknowledged his mistake and blessed his Companion, clearly showing that he didn't acknowledge the mistake grudgingly and nor did he harbor any animosity against this Companion for pointing his mistake.
BTW, there are other incidents too, that show that the Prophet forgot things, just like any other human being. At least one of them is alluded to in Surah Al-Kahf.
Do you think, someone who was a liar and an imposter would've been so humble and forthright about his mistakes ? And Allah knows BEST
Victor:"Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which clearly demostrates the limits of human perception"
What is the connection between human perception and Heisenberg's uncertainity....LOL!!
It (in layman's language) merely states that at one instant in time you cannot compute both the orientation and speed of the particle, you can compute only one of the two parameters.
Try optical illusions or Cognitive illusions if you wanna talk abt limits of human perception.
Quran was written in the prophet's life time, actually there was a group that he formed called "kutab al wahi" who used to write down verses and suras as the prophet dectated it to them. the compilation of the whole quran in one book happened right after the prophet's death in Abu Baker's time. In caliph Uthamn time what happened was the preparation of an official, standardized version to preserve the sanctity of the text, taking in consideration that Islam was expanding, and the accents even in Arabia between the tribes were different. the prophet died in 632. Uthman's era as a caliph was from 644 to 656. so the 150 years thing man is not actually accurate. Any how why are we discussing this anyway?
There's a Hadith that Prophet once blessed and prayed for one of the Sahaba when he corrected Prophet for missing a line from the Qur'an. I can't recall the exact version of it.
The point is that it goes to show that even Prophet himself had a proven tendency to forget lines from the Qur'an. This is a recorded version, we don't know how many more from himself and others.
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3000 QL Points
Way to go Ray!
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I know, these theory of missing parts in Quran is from Shiate community; that's the reason No Hafiz (who memories the whole Koran by Heart) among them...If one have real faith and belief in Allah, messengers, angels, jinns & Koran then only one could become Hafiz otherwise one could not..it is one of the miracle of Quran.
In Quran Allah claims that He is the One who protects Quran from any manipulations and amendments as it is been done with earlier holy books given to Jews and Christians i.e. Tohrat and Bible.
All that I'm saying is -as I said before in another topic- that everyone is entitled to have his own opinion, everyone has the freedom of choice whether to believe in a God or believe there isn't one, whether believe in this religion or that religion. Plus even God -which I believe in- sees no point in imposing and forcing ideas and beliefs down people throats. I believe in the diversity of life, life is a blend; we need to make it homogeneous and make the best out of it. Difference and diversity is healthy, arguments are enticing and constructive as long as they don't rise into a conflict or a clash.
We are in 21st century. Replicating any material be it text or photo isn't a big deal in today's times. I'm sure you won't find two versions of Qur'an in 2008.
However, you don't even know what methods were used a 100 years ago to proof-read and re-write a book, let alone surpassing over 13 centuries!
Qatarkid, Qur'an wasn't written down in lifetime of the Prophet, it might have been compiled yes. It was after his death and during times of war many people, who had learnt it by heart, were diminishing and then Caliph Uthman asked it to be compiled. This entire process of collecting material and writing it down was over 150 years after Prophets death. There's a story in itself that there were 4 different versions of Qur'an were found from various parts of Islamic states when the compilation was taking place. And few parts were left out due to political reasons.
I can't find that link, I think Adey had posted it on QL sometime back. Please do a google on it.
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3000 QL Points
Way to go Ray!
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What a big Cop-out
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
[10:99] “Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?”
[5:48] “For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed”
read some more books people. I suggest 'Fear and Lothing in Las Vegas'
Greetings from London, good to be away from the place where the belief in a god is even an issue. read and re read TGD - you know it makes sense
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Yes, totally agreed with Qatarikid, even in Mosques while leading prayer if Imam is making any mistake or forgetting while reciting, there is always somebody to remind him or correct him.
"Qur'an wasn't even written until 150 years after Prophet's death. I am sure you'd have played the game chinese whispers. By the time a phrase reaches to the last person, it is totally different. Imagine, over a period of 150 years that too a thick book of 30 chapters. Entire reason why Qur'an came and Bible was given up was to update the laws due to then present times. If you say that times changed in 700 years after Christ's death and not 1300 years after Prophet Mohammed, then there's something seriously wrong with you. We surely need an ammendment, if there was a God."
The statement is factually incorrect.
The Quran was written down in the lifetime of the Prophet. Furthermore it was memorised as it has always been word for word - even as it still is today including thousands of individuals in Doha alone. This is why there are no different versions of the Quran. There are different translations, but word for word across the world, the arabic Quran is the same.
As far as the translations are concerned they are only different in terms of the choice of words used in a second language, not in the meaning.
If you can produce two arabic Qurans in print anywhere across the world which are different I will accept your theory that the Quran has fallen foul to chinese whispers.
just for correction Quran was completed within the lifetime of prophet, there was a group of people who learnt Quran by heart untill it was compiled by Caliph Usman after 20 to 25 years later. I dont know from where this theory of 150 years came from.
From the lifetime of prophet people in masses have learnt Quran till today and perhaps thats is the only book that is learnt by heart, line by line and word by word.
Even today you can check it with any Hafiz the people who learnt it, even if some body is reciting it wrongly they will correct it.
I agreed with with one of the post above that this form should be used for the pure sake of discussion not for preaching.
Victor: My bride will teach me about it and i have already been leurning, all these positive discussions have been quite usefull for me, thanks anyway for your advice.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Rami, you just forget about making pork legal for muslim. it will just be a day dream. but please let me know which wife doesn't want to be taken care by husband in the modern time? Even if there are some it is specific to a region..
For halal food however there are spiritual reasons attcahed it along with scientific..
don't judge the religion by its followers, similarly as we shall not judge the book by its cover.
As humans are weak (limitations) and sometime could not hold it the way it is expected to!
Generally people wanted to follow the religion of their own convenience and comfort; while religion wanted us to follow it without arguments and conditions (blindly, that is faith).
So be happy in Whatever World you choose for Yourself.
Plato36: you are a newly converted muslim; you need to go a long way to understand in depth. my humble request to learn b4 u put any comments about ISLAM.
"Qur'an wasn't even written until 150 years after Prophet's death. I am sure you'd have played the game chinese whispers. By the time a phrase reaches to the last person, it is totally different. Imagine, over a period of 150 years that too a thick book of 30 chapters. Entire reason why Qur'an came and Bible was given up was to update the laws due to then present times. If you say that times changed in 700 years after Christ's death and not 1300 years after Prophet Mohammed, then there's something seriously wrong with you. We surely need an ammendment, if there was a God."
Rayyz: Right in the spot, only correction i'll do is regarding that God should send another profet, he made us racional beings for some reason, if we use it, we wont need other profets.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
I don't really hate them.:) Don't have time to hate anybody...
In this modern world, internet is the great equalizer.
The way this thread has evolved perfectly encapsulates the two distinct types of Muslims I've encountered during my time in Qatar; some in person, most online.
Firstly, there are those who are happy to discuss their religion with me, answer my questions and help me to gain a better understanding of the underlying foundation of the country I'm living in. At no point do these people try to convert me to Islam, and at no point do they insult or belittle me for being an atheist. On the contrary, many are interested to learn about my reasons for being an atheist and about how I lead my life.
Then there are those who seem more inclined to preach about, rather than discuss, Islam. They seem unable to comprehend the idea of someone not being a Muslim, and are too narrow minded to even contemplate trying to understand and accept that not everyone follows the same path as them. Unsurprisingly this attitude results in them being rude and insulting to others.
To those of you in the first group, I say thanks. To those in the latter, I say go and take a look at how you're supposed to behave towards others, whatever their beliefs.
The inference jumpinjack is that Christians *should* impose their beliefs on others, but atheists shouldn't.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
100% logical.
You don't need to tell me your religious...
athiests because they should know better. They should not try to impose their belief/unbelief. I am not from America but from what I hear on the news they impose their belief/unbelief about christians.
In this modern world, internet is the great equalizer.
I can say is that one's religion is personal. It is between you and God/Allah. I hate it when people are sermonizing their religion to others, be it a christian/muslim.
Man is religious/superstitious by nature, history tells us. Even "if" there is no God/Allah, man always create someone/something to be a superior than human being.
I hate athiesism the most. If you think you are right, why preach/impose it to other people. You are as bad as the other religion you hate.
There is no right or wrong when it comes to religion, imprint that on your brain! Because if you try to impose it to people of your beliefs, then you are dumb. We are in the 21st century and should know better.
Know your history. Religion preach salvation but it ends up to killing.
I am comfortable being a christian and with other religion. It is a personal choice.
(I am a christian and not affiliated with any christian sect and I don't preach.)
In this modern world, internet is the great equalizer.
Isn't this a rather one-sided approach to take, jumpinjackoo:
I hate athiesism the most. If you think you are right, why preach/impose it to other people. You are as bad as the other religion you hate.
So if all other things being equal athiests and christians are 'as bad' as one another, why then do you hate atheists more????
* Yawn * and your point is Vic?
Read this again a quote from Koran (democracy sustained)
REPEATING once again
[Kafiroon 109:1] Proclaim, (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him), “O disbelievers!”
[Kafiroon 109:2] Neither do I worship what you worship.
[Kafiroon 109:3] Nor do you worship Whom I worship.
[Kafiroon 109:4] And neither will I ever worship what you worship.
[Kafiroon 109:5] Nor will you worship Whom I worship.
[Kafiroon 109:6] For you is your religion, and for me is mine.
Take a free test, If you are going to heaven.
or you need directions to GOD?
The Red_Pope is the next goodwill Ambassador to India and Pakistan.
It's amazing how people seem happy to insult atheists, yet if I was to do the same to Muslims or Christians I'm sure there'd be uproar.
Victor Bhatt - I have not read the Koran. But if you re-read through this thread you'll see that the only aspects of the Koran that I have commented on are those posted by realsomeone in this original post. Most of my discussion has been nothing to do with the Koran specifically and more to do with peoples beliefs and the existence of God, so I resent your accusation that I'm "parroting", and that I'm blind to what is going on around me.
And in reply to your claim that "they only believe what can be felt by human senses" - I personally disagree with this. I believe in anything that can be proved scientifically, which includes many things that I can't "feel".
Some of your comments would provoke serious outrage if they were flipped round and applied to Muslims or Christians, so I ask you politely to have some respect and open-mindedness for people who don't follow your "chosen path".
Again Victor. I have read it. It's a beautiful bit of philosophy.
And it's high time some other people read 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins.
http://richarddawkins.net/godDelusion
"A preeminent scientist – and the world's most prominent atheist – asserts the irrationality of belief in God and the grievous harm religion has inflicted on society, from the Crusades to 9/11.
With rigor and wit, Richard Dawkins examines God in all his forms, from the sex-obsessed tyrant of the Old Testament to the more benign (but still illogical) Celestial Watchmaker favored by some Enlightenment thinkers. He eviscerates the major arguments for religion and demonstrates the supreme improbability of a supreme being. He shows how religion fuels war, forments bigotry, and abuses children, buttressing his points with historical and contemporary evidence. The God Delusion makes a compelling case that belief in God is not just wrong, but potentially deadly. It also offers exhilarating insight into the advantages of atheism to the individual and society, not the least of which is a clearer, truer appreciation of the universe's wonders than any faith could ever muster.
Richard Dawkins is the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford, a position he has held since 1995. The Wall Street Journal said his "passion is supported by an awe-inspiring literary craftsmanship." The New York Times Book Review has hailed him as a writer who "understands the issues so clearly that he forces the reader to understand them too." Among his previous books are The Ancestor's Tale, The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker, Climbing Mount Improbable, Unweaving the Rainbow, and A Devil's Chaplain."
So while Gypsy et al can learn about the beauty of Islam, Realsom et al can learn about the irrationality of religion. Sounds fair to me.
posted today...will surely bring happiness and harmony to your life.
should read quran and personally visualise the beauty of Islam. Please follow the links given by askme...for further help.
I could only say that "Taste of the fruit will remain with whom who ate it".
[Kafiroon 109:1] Proclaim, (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him), “O disbelievers!”
[Kafiroon 109:2] Neither do I worship what you worship.
[Kafiroon 109:3] Nor do you worship Whom I worship.
[Kafiroon 109:4] And neither will I ever worship what you worship.
[Kafiroon 109:5] Nor will you worship Whom I worship.
[Kafiroon 109:6] For you is your religion, and for me is mine.
It's a .com site chief! Please give direct links.
I never asked for a proof in the first place. This thread was created by a believer to prove God's existence it to an athiest, not vice versa. :P
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3000 QL Points
Way to go Ray!
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Those still need for proof please watch those videos, listen those voices and read on this website
http://www.harunyahya.com/
Qur'an wasn't even written until 150 years after Prophet's death. I am sure you'd have played the game chinese whispers. By the time a phrase reaches to the last person, it is totally different. Imagine, over a period of 150 years that too a thick book of 30 chapters. Entire reason why Qur'an came and Bible was given up was to update the laws due to then present times. If you say that times changed in 700 years after Christ's death and not 1300 years after Prophet Mohammed, then there's something seriously wrong with you. We surely need an ammendment, if there was a God.
As for Aalim's, trust me they're all frogs in a well.
Frozen : I wear clothes cos I look cool in them :)
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you are merely parroting what other people have said.
I doubt very much that they are serious about trying to ascertain the truth. Instead, all they are looking for is to prove that they have a lot of knowledge. Unfortunately such people cannot be helped. It is like trying to help someone who has eyesight but refuses to open his eyes and continues to believe that he can see everything.
Anyhow, as I said before, if they are serious about finding the truth about the Qur'an, they should read it themselves, then they can raise their doubts.
Finally, if as you say, they only believe what can be felt by human senses, then I am not sure they even understand contemporary physics or have even heard of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which clearly demostrates the limits of human perception. Again, such people cannot be guided by the Qur'an, since they are too occupied by feelings of their own superior knowledge and their absolute faith in human intellect.
In other words, while they themselves claim to be atheists, they are in fact theists (i.e. believe in a god), except that their God is their own intellect.
And Allah knows best.
Ah, atheism is "mental aberration" LOL. What a perfect way to not have to answer any of the questions associated with atheism, and a way to make all those brainwashed believers not listen to atheist's.
Frozen tear, Clothing is used to cover ones body from the elements as humans don't have fur. Humans have been covering their bodies since long long long before the Bible or the Quran.
who is the appointed administrator of Islam nowadays? Who checks the scholars? who checks the preachers? What if the preacher practice what is not written, will he/she remains a preacher (Imam)?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Are there any things that society has changed that you feel aren't "good?" When does society determine to change laws? With the legislative process, through the popular democratic means? How does the discussion take place?
Discussions about homosexuality, and specifically gay marriage, have been ongoing for many years. There are many misperceptions and stereotypes that are being erased by these discussions, which I find has helped with tolerance. But if you follow society (American, in this case), you would have been "against" gay marriage until only recently. In fact, in most states (the majority) in the United States, society has still reacted negatively towards it. During this debate- which may last a long time- where do you stand? What is good and what is not (or evil)?
Do you take part in the debate? If a majority of society disagrees with you, do you follow their idea of "good?" If society makes a law that you oppose, what is your rationale in opposing it?
In Qatar, there are laws based on what is good and evil. As you are in this society, do you follow their laws? Does their society or religion change your idea of good and evil?
Of course, the United States isn't the moral guide for the rest of the world. Not even remotely. This is just a question and I needed a backdrop that I understood...
It means taking Quran or Bible as a simple book of rules to without the existance of God, after life, hell or heaven then why to bother for living ethics why to bound yourselves into marriages you can maintain relationship whomever satisfy you and if he is agreed too, no matter if its your blood relation, they are human like anyone else and why to care about society you will spend life time and story will be over.
Again why to hide body in clothes let it whole be exposed like you hands or face, everybody knows how does it look like.
I would like to ask why do you cover yourself, coz of religion?
In short, if non-believers haven't read Quran, they should read it and then there could be a discussion. If they know Arabic, they should read it in Arabic. If they don't then they should read a good English translation (Muhammad Asad's translation is a modern English translation that could be very useful).
In general, the Qur'an doesn't address the atheists, since atheism is considered a mental aberration. But yes, it does discuss the rejection of resurrection after death, which is part of the atheistic belief.
Further, the Qur'an at its very beginning, clearly says that it is a book that guides those who believe in Al-Ghayb (that which is beyond human perception). So clearly, it cannot guide those who think that there is nothing that is beyond human perception.
While in the time of the Prophet (Peace be upon him), there were few who rejected the Unseen, today there are many who do so. This is indeed surprising, especially given the advances in our understanding of the physical world, from the smallest particle to the largest structures in the Universe. It is readily apparent that the more we know the more we can conclude that in spite of all our knowledge, there an extremely large number of things that we don't know and perhaps will never know because they are beyond our perception (i.e. Al-Ghayb).
To Rayyz, Quran claims that the Islamic Laws (Shria'a) shall be applicable till the day of Judgment and none of these laws required amendments. However depending upon the modern cirmcumstances ONLY qualified Aalim (A Islamic Scholar) could issue a FATWA (simplify the incident)but should enaure that it doesn't not deviating from the basic laws defined in Quran and Sunnah of Prophet.
God lead all of us to the Straight Path.
Yup that would be the gist of it DMighty. I do good because of what, after discussion amongst the populace has been determined as good.
you won't believe it anyway.
Gypsy, that what I am saying all along, you do good because you don't want to break human laws and be punish. And since these laws were created by humans, that is the basis of your doing good.
And you keep on complaining about flaws in laws. Checking previous threads, you opposed or agree with certain laws that is against what is written in the Bible. In the Bible, divorce (with re-marriage) is not allowed, but you agree with it. Same sex marriage is okay with you but not in the Bible, etc. etc.
What is good to you is what you "perceived" as good not as what is written to be good.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
What tallG says is correct. The number of executions has decreased significantly in the last few years.
By the way, I, myself am a supporter of the death penalty for murder, child molestation , rape etc.. Does that make me a zealot ??
Are they? I don't think Saudi Arabia is getting anywhere near this one!
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Islamic countries are moving away from the death penalty, so there is obviously some common sense being applied.
Quick question - I'm assuming that in Islam the Koran dictates which crimes should be punishable by the death penalty, so I understand why Islamic countries implement the death penalty (even if I don't agree with it). But why do countries such as the US have the death penalty? Does the bible talk about crimes being punished by death?
Brit, what about things like the death penalty and the condemnation of homosexuality, these days we are realizing that the death penalty does not work as a deterrent against crime and that homosexuality is a biological trait, not a choice. So shouldn't God come down and clarify that?
Dmighty, I do good because I believe it's the right thing to do. If I hurt someone the chances of my being hurt in return are 99% better. I do good because I don't want to go to jail, and because I like the feeling I get when I help others. I believe this life is to be enjoyed and part of enjoying it is helping others to enjoy it. I also believe in making the world a good place for my children and their children. I don't want them to die in a war that I created or because of something I did. I don't need some threat of heaven or hell to scare me into doing good.
There are two aspects.. In religion, one accepts the guidelines as an act of faith. Theerfore, it would be wrong to question the reasons behind the ban of pork.. What you say may be correct, or there may be others.
Secondly, in the example you gave, the key words that you used are "the husband doesn't allow the wife to work, because he believes it is against religious law"
As far as I know, there is no ban on women working. In fact , Islam says that the wages earnt by women are considered their own, to do with as they please. They do not have to share it with their husband.
The example you quoted can also apply to any society, without having anything to do with religion. If this issue had been discussed before they got married, then it wouldn't have come to this.
Brit,
Firstly, you seem to be saying that the reason such laws exist, such as not eating pork, are just arbitrary. Don't eat pork, not because there was a time when eating it carried a risk of infectious disease, but just because the Koran says no. No rational reason, just because.
I would like to think that certain religious laws sprang from a practical purpose, which is more or less what you are denying.
There was a time when halal foods were preferred because the consumer knew that it was more likely that the meat was clean, not just because it was what the religion demanded.
All over the world, a majority of mouths eat food that isn't halal. They aren't all dropping off like flies, because agricultural science is at a point where eating dead animals isn't as risky as it used to be.
On another note, what a joyous world it would be if, as you say, everyone just got on with their life.
I've seen with my own eyes here in Qatar marriages that break down because the husband doesn't allow the wife to work, because he believes it is against religious law.
In an ironic way, it was strict observance of (outdated) religious doctrine that led to, rather than prevented, the divorce.
Well said Brit.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
I see your "angle", but still don't see the need for change of laws / guidelines..
I live in London. On Friday, the mosque in East London has Friday prayers. Doesn't do any harm to others. In Golders Green, the Jews go to Synagogue. Some Orthodox Jews walk and don't drive.. No harm to anyone. Society not affected.
As far as food is concerned, things are even easier now, because alternatives are available.
Hindus don't eat Cow.. Good for them.. There are other meats / vegetables readily available now.
Theer is an abundance of Halal butchers and Jewish delicatessens.. No problems there.
My wife is a stay at home mother. She does a great job looking after the household and kids. She even wanders off to te odd coffee morning. Does she find it insulting that I am the breadwinner. NO!
I think we see obstacles, when there are none..
I never denied that either!
What I meant was if there ever was a biggest reason for a religion or God to prove itself then it is now. My argument is that variables that brought about Qur'an have indeed changed again, therefore the laws need to be changed once more. Pretty much like the same way Allah decided to do 13 centuries ago thru Prophet Mohammed.
As Tallg mentioned that many principles of Bible and Qur'an make sense, yet it doesn't prove that they've come from God or his existence!
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Brit,
I take your point, and more or less agree, but... (there's always a but in there somewhere :p)
You can't on the one hand continue to refer to them as 'laws', and then believe that people can follow them if and when they chose.
Either they are laws that every muslim must follow everyday, or they are like the laws in the Christian bible that we can just pick and chose from...
Debating is cool. the aim of the thread was to open the eyes of the atheists, totally informational, if you are open eyed then cool else make your argument heard like gypsy.
no abuses,no bashing, no blaming,no name calling.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Brit,
I think I understand what Rayyz is getting at.
It's much the same with Jewish law, in terms of what they can and cannot do on the Sabbath.
Should Jews be allowed to drive cars, use elevators and send text messages on the Sabbath. A strict theological interpretation, to some, is no, these things are forbidden.
But none of these things were issues when the holy book was revealed, all those years ago.
In a Muslim context, we could argue about whether or not there is a need for halal food anymore. Surely now in the age of microbiologists and food safety, why should we care if 1400 years ago pork was 'dirty'. In this day and age we can detect salmonella in a bacon rasher, so what's the big deal?
Islamic scholars still believe that it is the duty of a husband to support his wife, which surely in this modern time is both unnecessary and quite insulting.
I think Rayyz's point was a bit of a 'get with the program' sort of comment.
I think those "laws" as you call them can still apply today. I know a few Muslims who live in the West, have good jobs and still practice their religion as required.
many non-Muslims chose not to drink, for whatever reasons. this does not make them outcasts in society - does it ?
Similarly, If a person wants to live his life without Pork etc , then why shouldn't he/she do so.. vegetarians and Vegans do it..
1. Perspective towards life
2. More women working than ever before
3. More interaction between people of different religions
4. More athiests
5. New inventions including televisions, cars, aircrafts etc. etc.
My entire point is that if there was a need of a new religion to arrive or as per muslim perspective bring about changes in existing laws due to changing times (such as allowing 4 marriages, alcohol haraam) etc etc. Then the variables that forced formation of new laws have definitely changed since then. By variables here I refer to humans and their surroundings and lifestyle as well.
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Sorry buddy. Give me an example of what has changed, so I can understand your point..
morning dmigtysolomon;
Firstly I'd just like to clarify that I wouldn't use the words "weird and humorous" to describe how I find your beliefs.
Now to answer some of your queries;
"I really don't know how you people exist and live your life?"
Well, I'm here, so obviously I manage! I actually find this comment a little insulting.
"they believe the book that prove that God exist and yet they don't."
I don't "believe" the bible. I read it and agree with some of the principles it outlines for living your life. And I didn't find anything in it to prove the existence of God.
you don't recognize God, means also you don't believe in heaven and hell?
Correct.
It's good that you're keen to understand an atheist's point of view. Hopefully you'll be open-minded enough to understand and accept it rather than describing it as "wierd". From what I've read above, you don't come across as respecting our views.
Exactly my point! If there was a need of change in laws and religon as well with changing times (when Qur'an was given to people of earth) then I think there is a need of another book re-deifing the laws because a lot has changed since the last Prophet was sent.
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regarding what do you expect as a reward for doing good things? but before that, how do you know you are doing good things, what is good to you? How do you define good or right? What is your basis that it's good, I mean there should be a standard to categorize it as "good" because people have different views, we may agree or disagree on one subject of goodness, but if there is a standard, we just need to fulfill or satisfy that standard and we will surely agree, right?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Nope, absolutely not.
they believe the book that prove that God exist and yet they don't.
Gypsy/Tallg, you don't recognize God, means also you don't believe in heaven and hell?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
You are correct. Islam is a way of life - likewise Christianity and Buddhism etc.
However, I fail to understand your comment about "new laws or rules of living"
The norms of living are the same today as they were years ago. The ethhics and morals should also be the same.
What has changed ?
why, Rayyz, you also don't believe in God?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
You just said you respect our views and now contradicting yourself! :P
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good morning to you both!!!!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Dmighty and we find your beliefs equally weird and humorous.
that God do exists! Your reasoning are blinding your senses about His presence in daily lives of all people. I really don't know how you people exist and live your life? I respect your views but sorry to say, I find it really weird for people not to believe in God or someone who created him/her. Someone who is supplying air to breath and someone who owns your life. Of course, you don't believe that?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
As per muslims Qur'an is THE book to refer upon for any situation in daily walks of human lives. Which I guess could be understood as new laws or rules of living.
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make me smile.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
You've lost me. What laws are you talking about ?
It's amazing isn't it that Allah/God on one fine day in the 7th century decided that enough is enough and we needed new laws cos of the changing times. So there went the Bible and Qur'an came into existence with all the laws relevant as per then present times.
However, 1300+ years later, despite the fact that the world and humans have progressed so much since the laws were last ammended, God doesn't seem to care much!
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Not believing in God doesn't mean you disavow the morals and ethics taught in the Bible or the Quran, or even that you don't take lessons from them, both books are excellent books of philosophy and ethics, and, like we learn from the teachings of other philosophers, we should learn from them. It just means you don't think they are the words of a big sky daddy.
I believe in the theory of Darwin, only up too a certain point, after that, I believe in God and my Bible.
The Red_Pope is the next goodwill Ambassador to India and Pakistan.
Not believing in God doesn't mean you can't agree with religious values. I think the bible contains lots of good examples of how you should lead your life, but I don't believe in God.
If someone doesnt believe GOD of any kind are they endorsing the societies built on religious values ?
That was not what I was trying to suggest with my statement Qatarkid. I'm sure you can understand that it's perfectly possible to be happy with your own chosen "path" while also remaining open-minded to other people's ideas.
I enjoy learning about other peoples beliefs and religions but I'll never believe in a God myself, and I'm more than happy within myself.
Equally, I understand and accept that for others religion is their life and they could not carry on without it. And some religious folk who I've spoken to even express an interest in trying to understand why I don't believe in a God - without feeling the need to try and convert me.
So I'm definitely not suggesting we all sit here in our own little bubbles, ignoring what other people believe. If we all did that then none of us would be commenting on this thread, and life in general would be very boring.
But unfortunately some people aren't open minded and decide something needs to be 'done' about those who don't believe in the same thing they do.
Another way to put tallg's statement is to suggest that each group should remain happy in their own ignorance....
and yet, the fact remains that only one group is correct - there either is a god or there isn't. So some of us are in for a surprise :)
The previous statements which imply or conclude that a creator does not exist because you can't see him or speak to him etc.. are less about as rational as irrational.
Surely a rational stance is to remain open-minded and reflect on the evidence which sits all around us.
Is there evidence of intelligent design?
Just a little.
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
A voice of reason.. Well put!
Well said Brutus. No one can prove the existence of God, and no one needs to. Religious folk are happy in their beliefs and find peace. Equally, non-religious folk are happy in their beliefs and the purpose of their life.
Very much true!
Brutus: I fully agree with you, just wanna correct you about the people that belive in God, you forgot Muslims and Deists.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Those of us who are Christian (Muslims, Jews, too, I think) believe in God because that belief gives us peace. Peace. The happiness in our heart that our lives have purpose- not only in this world, but purpose that carries us through eternity. The concepts of the Old and New Testaments (and all the other books of faith in Christianity) were testimonies of men and women who witnessed the power of faith in their lives. These books testify of the power of God and his Plan. They aren't perfect- neither the books nor the people. How could they be? But we can relate to these imperfect people and their imperfect books because they testify of their experience with the same God.
Peace, much like God, is intangible. You can't see it or measure it. Why would you need to? You either have peace or you do not.
Many of us will differ on God's instructions to his children. But in my mind, one thing is clear: If your message to others does not bring them peace, is your message of God? Does it open- or harden- hearts? The message that many devout believers (of Christianity et al) share on this site about their religions is commendable, but are you promoting or hindering your religion?
None of use can prove that God exists. The Testaments teach us that even when people were shown the miracles of God, they disbelieved. And even believers doubt from time to time.
I will testify to you all, though, that I have found periods of true peace with my religion. I'm not talking about miracles: glowing rods of power, pillars of fire, or parting seas. Peace in my heart that has comforted me at times when I have felt alone. A profound feeling that there is more than "this."
Though these threads seem to never really find closure...and all posts- good and bad- are passed over without much thought, I hope the athiests can ask themselves the same question I posed above: Does the message that you have concerning the purpose of your life bring you peace? Will your message bring peace to others?
how do we see, feel or touch time? what is time?
and has anyone ever seen feelings? what colour are they? whats the texture like?
i think Gypsy can answer those questions. :D
the discussion never ends but i just felt like contributing to the post..
Brit: lol, Ramses was the Pharaoh who lasted longer in power, most of the egyptians only knew him as Pharaoh since the time they were born till they died, don't you have Discovery channel in Doha?
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
"A man may fight for many things.His country,his friends,his principles,the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child.
But personally,I'd mud wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sackful of porn."
Blackadder.
for "...those who.." want the truth please read this.
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/Allahs_miracles_of_the_quran/Allahs_miracles_of_the_quran.php
So let me get this straight Salax, the Prophet never ever spoke to anyone ever before he spoke to Gabriel, and there are people who watched him do this who can confirm 100% that in 40 years he never ever once spoke to someone. AND more importantly! He never listened when anyone else spoke!
And I was speaking in general that the men would sit around and smoke, not specifically Mohammed.
salax - and you must know this about the Prophet because the information was passed down through written or spoken word. Just like information before that time was.
So the Pyramid was actually a launching platform for the "glider".. No wonder Ramses II didn't last long..
Tallg/Gypsy: I would like to add that in the time of Ramses II it was built the 1st Planator ( plane that flies without engines ).
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Hmmm, all this discussion makes me wonder, who was born 1st, the egg or the chicken? If God exists, he created the chicken that layed the 1st egg, if He doesn't exist, than who can reply the question? or was it "just an accident" like the creation of the universe?
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Thank you tallg, I was just about to say that.
If you look at Arab history, especially in Saudi (where the Prophet is from), there was a very strong tradition of story telling and oral philosophical discussion. Just because he was illiterate (as 90% of people were then) does not mean he wasn't "educated" most likely, like many men of his time, he would have spent a great deal of time with other men discussing philosophical, scientific and political issues and smoking.
Gypsy's point is that some of the theories and hypothesises mentioned in the Koran (that are listed in the original post by realsomeone) existed before the Koran was written. Their form doesn't matter, they were passed through generations by word of mouth and by written word.
For your information, the Papyrus plant was processed by Egyptians and used to write on in the third millennium BC. Parchment was created from animal skins around the first century BC, which were folded into book-form.
Do you have proof that an angel visited him or only that he transcribed some philosophies for others to write down on animal hides.
And guess what, if you tie a bunch of animals hides together, do you know what you get??? A BOOK!
perfect history (Archeologically) people wrote on tanned hides, stone, etc and not in the form of books.
Now pick up biography of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), who was an illiterate prior to Prophethood (till the age of 40); an angel visits him and HE only read out the message of God and announced it to the people. The same quranic verses got jotted on animal hides first and then written in book lately around 7-8 century after the messanger left.
With due respect to YOU, being so knowledgeable and educated. Request you to please read authentic books about the true religion of Judaism, Chritianity and Islam (relevant).
May God will provide you some guidance and elightenment to lead you to the RIGHT PATH.
I've read all those. I see a lot of philosophy, myth, stories and jargon but no proof of the existence of God, anymore then the Chamber of Secrets provided proof of the existence of Harry Potter or the Odyssey of Zeus.
And frankly I don't believe that the human brain is small or limited, but rather a vessel of untapped potential.
And the earliest recorded forms of paper were from Egypt in 3500 BC. Not to mention that before that people wrote on tanned hides, stone, etc.
With respect Victor Bhatt, you don't post a topic regarding the existence of God without expecting a debate to ensure. realsomeone has been around QL long enough to realise that and I'm sure he's happy that a healthy debate has been provoked.
HE (GOD) is the ONE who is self sustained and ALWAYS THERE...I know science will never accept THEORY OF SELF EXISTENCE...
We are very small and our human brains / mind has certain limitations and unable to even think HOW Big and Mighty He is, WHO is running the whole universe and will make everybody accountable for his deeds.
With sincere determination Read Religious books like Quran, old testaments of bible....that will surely give you the answers
Science believes that with the natural process it happened. but there is somebody WHO is on Driving Seat my friend...make this process to happen
One need to get proper education with Open Forum to think in all directions including Gypsy's Atheist view. One need to search for an answer rather justifying or thrusting personal opinion on others.
"YOUR QUOTE : Pick up the philosophies and books that were written before the Quran, and you'll see that it simply furthers what has already been theorized"
VB: For your kind information; paper was not invented till 700 AD; which books were there to teach and guide prior to Quran.
To tallg: we don't need any arguments or debate, one need to analyse his / her own way the RIGHT PATH.
Anyways, as MP said we could argue about this forever. And the fact of the matter is that the original post does not actually attempt to prove the existence of God, but instead discusses the parts of the Koran that have turned out to be true. Gypsy has already address that.
That's one of the most illogical arguments I've ever read!
As soon as you say "let's say God doesn't exist" then the argument ceases to be. The reason the is an argument (I prefer discussion :) is because you say God does exist.
let's say God doesn't exist, then what are we talking about here? What are we arguing? Nothing? Would you like me to believe that we are arguing something that does not exist?
The mere fact that we argue is there is something or someone to argue about. So if we are arguing about God, it means God do exist! Logical, isn't it?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Oh, and another thing; Generally the onus is on trying to prove that something does exist, rather than it doesn't!
Otherwise we could all go round saying things exist, and that they'll continue to exist into someone proves they don't. Think mermaids, unicorns, dragons, fairies, etc, etc.
dmigtysolomon - we didn't ask for proof that god exists! We're quite happy plodding through life believing there isn't a god. It's Realsomeone who decided to try and prove the existence!
just rage on and on....
"A man may fight for many things.His country,his friends,his principles,the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child.
But personally,I'd mud wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sackful of porn."
Blackadder.
will not come to yourself. The problem is not with us but you. You are the one with no logical argument. You keep on asking for us to prove that God exist, but you can not prove that God does not exist!
The fact that you can reason-out and give your opinions in this posting is a logical proof that God do exist!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Seriously?
It is the matter of your Heartand Soul;
Keep hand on your heart and say there is no GOD!
ASK YOURSELF; GOD doesn't need any proof to be explained; HE should be known ONLY by HIS CREATIONS and World's natural beauty around you.
Logically or directly no body can prove you but ONLY with example which a human can understand.
Such as, Can you raise one leg, yes ofcourse; at the same time can you raise your another leg, Obviously Not otherwise you will fall down!
That is the God creation; you will say this is Earth's gravitational force; Common tell me WHO created, When there are so many Suns and Moons in the Galaxy, why we see only One Sun and One Moon? Is there Life on other planets? These all could not get CREATED and start evolving and revolving by itself. Can you tell me When these planets will stop revolving in solar system?
I just like to see if anyone can actually come up with a logical argument for the exisitence of God Brit. So far no luck.
agreed to certain extent; if we all say Faith is Not required to be proved and it is the matter of belief but TRUTH needs to be shown to ALL.
Even if they (ATHEIST) are not convinced, their own conscience will continue to challenge and ASK real motive behind their OWN existence and Where they will GO after Death.
Is it FOOLS world, Where you born, lived and die without a proper objective or motives.
God will not come to Qatar and will explain or prove HIS existence, He (The Almighty, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, etc)uses somebody like you (RS) and me to apply, share and spend as much information as possibly we gathered.
Rest God knows better and lead the path Whoever HE likes.
We salute people like Zakir Naik, who is doing commandable job with determination and face the modern challenges very efficiently
Wha is the need to prove for the existence of God????????????First of all its well-known....secondly, if somebody doesn't believe may be due to certain circumstances.....you never know & Its between him & God....& lastly you or zakir naik are not prophet....(Although you can inform them but.....proving the existence doesn't seem suitable on a common human being)
'Why not just be content with your own inner self and stop worrying about the Atheists ?? Similarly, they should do the same..'
Well Brit believers stop worrying about the atheists is ok but don't you think atheists have all the reason to cry for all those worries being created by believers(Disclaimer: going by the Media)
Give peace a chance guyz...just live and let others live..
ahhhhhhhh guess i am a lost cause...read it all...beliefs unchanged.
agreed Rami... nicely said
"Like most of the Godless (or Godfree), I have no desire to proselytise for atheism or to persuade people out of religions that may offer them comfort and companionship."
"What makes me think I "can reduce the function of religion to the provision of 'comfort and companionship'" instead of seeing it as a "public truth"? Being an atheist, I suppose. I see religion as a cultural and psychological construct, which fulfils certain almost universal needs and which, as a consequence, I am disinclined to condemn."
- a journalist
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veni, vidi, vici.
Bingo Rami!! Couldnt have put it better!!
I'll just copy/pate 2 articles as an answer to both sides.
""Revealed" Religions and Mental Illness
Mental health is a very important and required element for a productive, progressive and happy life. The false claims made by the various "revealed" religions, especially when introduced at an early age, cause much mental anguish and pain to individuals which then has a great potential to have a negative effect on society in general. For example, the case of Andrea Yates who murdered her five little children because she thought Satan had possessed her and was soon going to possess her children. In her twisted Bible based mind, if she murdered her children before "the age of accountability" they would all go to heaven. She thought she'd be executed for the murders and Satan would die with her.
In a similar case which stinks of the Bible story of God telling Abraham to kill his son, Deanna Laney murdered two of her little boys by stoning them to death and then severely handicapped her third little boy. She did this because she thought God wanted her to do it to "prove her complete and unconditional faith in Him." Of course, God never told Abraham or Mrs. Laney or anyone else to murder their children! THE BIBLE IS WRONG!!! Our God-given reason tells us this! Unfortunately, the billions of people who are currently suffering from "revealed" religion put the teachings of men before God's gift of reason.
The World Union of Deists is very happy to announce that we now have a new member of the WUD Speakers' Bureau who can professionally address the critically important issue of "revealed" religion and mental illness! Henry Jones, M.D. has volunteered to speak to groups who are interested in learning about this terrible reality, as well as to offer positive and effective solutions to the problem. Anyone who'd like to have Dr. Jones speak to their group can contact me at [email protected] "
source: http://www.deism.com/religionmentalillness.htm
Life long atheist and philosopher Antony Flew, pictured at left, has evolved into a Deist! Professor Flew is a man of profound integrity who is more concerned with the truth than he is with orthodoxy of any kind, whether religious or secular.
Professor Flew wanted to be certain that his acceptance of a belief in God was not misunderstood to a belief in the Bible god or any god of the various "revealed" religions. Professor Flew said, "I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, . . ."
Like all Deists, Professor Flew believes we should be honest and be concerned with facts, not mythology and hearsay/revelations. And he is not concerned if he is attacked by either the "revealed" religionists or the atheists. He said, "My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads." This idea is key to Deism. Deists are open-minded enough to know the importance of that Socratic standard.
Many people unfamiliar with Deism claim that Mr. Flew has developed a belief in God because he is getting older and fears death. These people who make these statements don't realize that Deists openly state that they don't know what, if anything, happens to us after our body dies. And Mr. Flew is among those Deists who don't believe in an afterlife at all. (Because there are no man-made dogmas in Deism, Deist are free to believe whatever makes most sense to them as individuals regarding things like an afterlife.)
I'd like to welcome Professor Flew into the family of Deists! He's an outstanding man loaded with honesty and integrity and it's a true honor to have him as a self-proclaimed Deist!
The fact that Professor Flew has become a Deist, and the fact that Ray Fontaine, a former Roman Catholic Priest, has become an active Deist, as well as Jayson Post who evolved from a Christian Orthodox Priest, demonstrates the power of Deism to reach across the lines of both atheism and "revealed" religion. Deism can do much, provided we do much to promote Deism!
Here is an audio file of Professor Flew being interviewed by the BBC. It is an interesting interview. The interviewer mispronounces the word "Deist" as "dayist", which demonstrates how much work we must do to get the word out about Deism! Click here for the audio file.
source: http://www.deism.com/atheisttodeist.htm
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
uh oh... subjects are quite intertwined now...:(
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veni, vidi, vici.
If I had to be a cynic Winn (and it's not the first time)....
If person A spends his whole life trying to convince persons B thru Z in the existence of something, it could be because person A doesn't actually have 100% faith that he is right. He needs other people, B, C, D etc, to make the same leap of faith as him so that he knows he's not alone.
The impulse to convert everyone around you stems from a sense of doubt in your own belief - if it were that clear that God exists, everyone else would believe it... but they don't... and this triggers doubt in your mind.
If you *truly* believed in the existence of God, you wouldn't be wasting your precious life trying to convince others of the same thing. You'd get out there and enjoy life, not staring at an internet forum hoping to convert passers by to Islam.
This passage has all the symptoms of a typical propoganda (whether it is commercial, political, whatever) piece.
1. Take a piece of accepted fact/simple math/logic, then make a sudden leap including a huge extrapolation of the small piece of data and 'prove' one's point.
Victor: Should one assume is tht God is like Pain? and fate is a slap on the face?
btw, what causes the pain is transfer of energy; its not as simple as flesh n flesh!!
The stories that people make up on behalf of God...LOL!
Wht I do not understand is why some people immerse themselves in frantic efforts to justify Faith.
Where PROOF is possible, you do not need FAITH...
"Faith is like reaching the end of all you know and then taking the next step with the absolute belief that either you'll be taught to fly or that the ground will extend and meet your next step". There is no room for arguing probability theory or logic there...LOL!!If you believe, jus believe!!... why do you need a HUMAN faculty( eg. science/logic/math) to explain/validate something that you feel is DIVINE??
As an Atheist, have you been swayed by the arguments put forward thus far ?
you got it brit., after all they chose to be atheist
defined as: unbeliever in God or deities
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veni, vidi, vici.
Because if you don't discuss stuff you'll never learn anything.
brit said 'Why should there be a need to prove the existence of God to an Atheist ?
The existence of God is based on Faith and belief. Why not just be content with your own inner self and stop worrying about the Atheists ?? Similarly, they should do the same
Brit, thats the most sensible thing anyone has written about religion....
Why should there be a need to prove the existence of God to an Atheist ?
The existence of God is based on Faith and belief. Why not just be content with your own inner self and stop worrying about the Atheists ?? Similarly, they should do the same..
"All of us feel God’s existence without being able to see His shape"
Well obviously not, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.
THREE QUESTIONS
There was a young man who went overseas to study for a quite a long time. When he returned, he asked his parents to find him a religious scholar or any expert who could answer his 3 Questions. Finally, his parents were able to find a Muslim scholar.
Young Man Says: I have 3 Questions:
Question # 1 Does God Exist? If so, show me his shape.
Question # 2 What is Taqdeer (Fate)?
Question # 3 If shaitan (Devil) was created from the fire, why at the end he will be thrown to hell that is also created from fire. It certainly will not hurt him at all, since shaitan & the hell were created from Fire.
Did God Think of this far?
Suddenly, the Scholar slapped the young man’s face very hard. Young man (Felt Pain): why do you get angry at me?
Allah said: “If you are ashamed of me, I will be ashamed of you.” If you are not ashamed, pass this message on…only If you believe…
Yes, I love Allah, Allah is my fountain of Life and My Savior. Allah keeps me going day & night. Without Allah, I am no one, but with Allah, I can do everything. Allah is my strength. May HE help U to Succeed.. Ameen
ALLAH DOES EXIST…
This is one of the best explanations of why Allah allows pain and suffering that I have seen:
A man went to a Barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects when they eventually touched on the subject of Allah
The Barber said: I don’t believe that Allah Exists. Why do you say that? Asked the customer. Well, you just have to go out in the street & realize that Allah doesn’t exist. Tell me if Allah Exists, would there be so many sick people?
Would there be abandoned Children? If Allah existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can’t imagine a loving Allah who would allow all of these things. The customer thought for a moment, but didn’t respond because he didn’t want to start an argument.
The Barber finished his job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and untrimmed beard, he looked dirty and unkempt.
The customer turned back and entered the barbershop again and said to the barber: You know what? Barbers do not exist. How can you say that? Asked the surprised Barber. I am here, and I am a Barber, & I just worked on you!
No! The customer exclaimed. “Barbers don’t exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beard, like that man outside.
Ah, But Barbers do exist! That’s what happens when people do not come to me.” Exactly, affirmed the customer. “that’s the Point!
Allah, too, exist! That’s what happens when people do not go to HIM and don’t look to HIM for Help. That’s why there’s so much pain and suffering in the World”.
Scholar: I am not angry. The slap is my answer to your questions.
Young Man: I really don’t understand.
Scholar:
How do you feel after I slapped you?
Young Man: Of course, I felt pain
Scholar: So do you believe that pain exists?
Young Man: Yes.
Scholar: Show me the shape of the pain!
Young Man: I cannot.
Scholar: That is my first answer. All of us feel God’s existence without being able to see His shape…Last night, did you dream that you will be slapped by me?
Young Man: No.
Scholar: Did you ever think that you will get a slap from me today?
Young Man: No.
Scholar: That is Taqdeer (fate) my second answer…my hand that I used to slap you, what is it created from?
Young Man: It is created from flesh.
Scholar:
How about your face, what is it created from?
Young Man: Flesh.
Scholar: How do you feel after I slapped you?
Young Man: In pain.
Scholar: That’s it. This is my third answer, even though Shaitan (Devil) and also the hell were created from the fire, if Allah wants, the hell will become a very painful place for Shaitan
Gypsy is addressing the title of the thread:
*Proving* the existence of God to an Athiest.
How do you *prove* (a term that refers to either a scientific or logical use of reasoning) something that transcends the natural and observable world?
gypsy is basing her views on scientific reasoning while you,rs, protect your beliefs by standing up on your religous claims...
and gypsy is right, truth is obviously not clear, if the reasoning of all these will be based on individualized "ideas", and not on a norm acceptable to everybody in an absolute manner.
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veni, vidi, vici.
Obviously the truth is not clear RS, if I just supplied such an obvious alternative answer to the generally "accepted" theory.
this might help eagle.,
is this only about proving the existence of Islamic God to the atheist? (...or)
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veni, vidi, vici.
What's the point of this post?
The title and the body have no correlation to one another.
Well that is your own opinion of course, but the truth is clear and doesnt need any explanation of how the quran was revealed or written from gypsy.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Damn - I was just about to post something very similar to Gypsy's post but she beat me to it!
Neither could Jesus, or quite a few other philosophers of the time. And I'm correct in assuming that Mohammed actually had others write the Quran for him and he simply spoke?
What many people forget is there was a great "oral" tradition of philosophers and story tellers back then, and that "education" was merely sitting around someone telling the stories of others. So it's quite likely he overheard these theories, or even came up with some himself, much of it, like the way the sun rises and falls and the arch of the sky would suggest that the Earth is infact spherical.
I'm not saying Mohammed wasn't smart, he was obviously a genius, so it doesn't surprise me that he made these observations.
one last reminder gypsy...the prophet (pbuh) did not attended school, couldnt write or read.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE: In the case of who will know the object, and people responding the "creator." Yes this is true, however the creator is ALWAYS a person that you can see, touch, speak too and can replicate the machine. Who's this God? I can't see him, speak to him, and so far he hasn't recreated the world or done anything to prove himself. He hasn't even written a book with his own hand. Therefore, much like Homer, it's difficult to prove he ever existed at all and is not a figment of the imagination.
THEORY OF PROBABILITY: Actually the shape of the Earth had been theorized about for centuries before the Quran, the actual belief that the world was flat was only believed by Christian Europe. In regards to the Science of the Quran, most of it predates the Quran and goes back to the theories of the Egyptians, Mesopostamians, Greeks, Romans, Indians and Chinese. Unfortunately many of these theories, thanks to the dark ages of both Christian Europe and the dark ages in Asia, have not survived. So I find it more likely that these things were taught through word of mouth and common schools of philosophy then the direct word of a big sky daddy more likely.
CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN : Yup, you're right, but the creators would actually have been a real person or persons, whose names were unfortunately forgotten.
Actually if we're going to go with this whole "creator-creation thing" it should really be noted that no one has ever "created" something spontaneously. All of the great scientists, philosophers, etc, have built upon the studies of others. So really if you're going to follow this model you're promoting the idea of multiple Gods.
Very interesting. TQ, Doc. Need to digest later when not rushing through my work day.
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Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama