Expats and Arabic. Should it be a law?

To confirm my point which I stated that let's make sure that the use of Arabic is still popular and strong within the native Arabs, the Raya arabic newspaper published today a long study confirming the phenomenon. Below is a comic which is part of the article, but it says it all. I also added the reference to the date of the paper if anyone interested in the study.

To the OP--I think courtesy and consideration to the host culture requires some conformity which includes learning basics of the local language, history, religion, culture. This is common sense. Beyond that I do not think everyone in Qatar should be required to learn fluent Arabic. It's not practical.

Wow! this topic is still going strong?

Marco - I have worked on oil and gas jobs in (Eastern) Siberia, Atyrau (Kazakhstan), Niger delta (Africa), Western Amazon (Bolivia, Brazil)...... and NO I've never felt the need to learn the local language. Got by with English just fine.

Again you bring in France and Germany. They don't need expats to come and do their jobs. They already have enough unemployed citizens to take care of. They will make it as hard as possible for immigrants to come in and take their jobs UNLESS it's an occupation in demand (skills shortage).

Countries which are in dire need of immigrants and expats will accomodate all sorts. I have known Vietnamese in Australia who have close to zero comprehension of English.

MarcoNandoz-01 wrote

"If you apply for jobs in France / Germany or any of the non-English speaking populations. You are required to learn their language before you’re legible for work there. So there English isn’t really a universal language."

"Had your hubby’s job been in a remote gas drilling company off the Russian coast or somewhere in farthest southern tip of South America where no one spoke a word of English, It would be mandatory for him to speak the language of the natives .And I have seen documentaries on Geology experts from England who had to spend 2 yrs in a town in Chilly where people communicated in Latin among other local tongues."

Niicee fubar

This discussion is taking a very interesting turn

Exactly Marco. How will they complain?

They don't speak Arabic.

Which is exactly my point. It's that much easier to treat the poor Asians like crap because they don't really look or sound like part of the community.

It's why Americans had black slaves - they looked and sounded different, so it seemed less strange to treat them like dirt.

fubar: while I agree with some of the things your on certain points. I still peg to differ. The reason why you see more Asians in the GCC than any other nationalities (Including Arabs of other nationalities) is because the bulk of them come in cheap. Agree to live in crammed up places etc and you won't hear them complain.

But that’s for another thread’s story ^_*

I just can't see it being implemented in Qatar.

If you think about which countries Qatar takes few expats from - Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, etc - they are Arab speaking countries.

Meanwhile the largest number of expats come from Asian countries, and almost all of them speak more English than Arabic.

In my own personal view, it's not by chance or circumstance that most expats here don't speak Arabic.

It is by choice.

There are plenty of unemployed, low cost, semi-skilled laborers from Egypt, Algeria, Sudan, Morocco etc. But most labor comes from Asia. That has to be on purpose; there's no way you can convince me that this is an accident.

It's not just that Qatar doesn't care if expats don't speak Arabic, it's that they don't want them to.

Didn’t say it must. I was merely asking whether the GCC members of states should make it law. Those arguing against it had their valid reasons. Similarly those arguing for it had their own good reasons as well.

So no hard feelings.

Marco, you can argue about this until we all are blue in the face...point is, this is not going to happen at this point in time. As simple as that.

Victory_278692: you asked me why the UAE did not implement the law they for making Arabic a requirement. And I told you I wasn’t the UAE govt. Your question was directed at the wrong person. And nope it’s not personal at all. Well unless you feel it’s. Then that become your problem.

max1986: Well it's practical and it's being implemented in most countries around the world.

That’s what people from Asia for example are reuiqred to take English texts before landing jobs anywhere in the English speaking world.

there is no time or necessity for working class expatriates to spend time or effot in learning Arabic;

While the business community are forced to learn Arabic due to their necessity.....where is the contradiction?

Your OP talks about GCC countries; hence discussed about UAE laws and future rules, which may regulate any time.

Nothing personal, let live this OP to an individual choice and preference.

jjj75: So the entire Company which your hubby worked at in France (knowing how the French people are so damn proud of their language / heritage/ culture) they saw it fit to drop their native & official language (French) and take on a foreigner’s language (English) because one outsider worked with them? Your (husband) umm interesting story.

Ya and so it's not practical my friend that y no such law has been I implemented.

Victory: You will have to write/phone/email the UAE govt for that. I’m not the UAE govt.

That’s your homework to do Max:

Victory your comment contradicts itself every step of the way. So on one hand Expats shouldn't bother learning the language of the land because they don't have the time/desire to do it, however on the other hand those business men and women expats are finding it difficult to interact with the locals because they lack the linguistic requirements and skills?

max1986: yes If you are in direct contact with the non-English speaking locals and it’s your daily job routine and you are unable to carry out your work duties right because of the language hindrance, then I’m afraid yup you are not qualified "Enough" to do the job best.

Mn actually when hubbie was in Paris he was the only native English speaker, rest were French but they decided that the contract Lang should be English. Also what you find in remote oil and gas areas such as Siberia is that there are so many different nationlities involved they have to stick to one common Lang and that usually is English

I read sometime back that UAE will implement a law to ask all expatriates interested in taking a job to clear a written TEST, acknowledging the basic rules, regulations, Arab customs and traditions to ensure they understand and respect local traditions.

Does that become a Law yet?

Yes i said that myself but my question is Marco how long does it take a average person to learn a new language complete? And will the vacancy will be available for me till I learn

off topic alert, off topic alert, let's not turn this into a dictionary exercise. The proposal originally was to enforce learning arabic for those who work here, but let's find out what could be the motives:

1. Improve productivity

2. Enhance social life

3. Provide better service to the arabic speakers

4. Appreciate the arabic culture

5. Lessening the cultural threat to host country

Macro, add more please and list in priority as you see fit

"migrant" and "immigrant" are not the same.

your quote....

"We are not taking the effort to learn to walk their walk learn their language and customs to blend in"unquote

As far as the need for survival; one definitely make some efforts.

very well replied by Fubar and Cherrukan that we expatariates spend our times at work place with limited number of holidays; unless it is a necessity, nobody have a desire to spend time to learn a foreign language.

I have seen most of the businessmen or women (local or expatriates) use all their efforts to speak in Arabic with poor grammar, bcoz of their necessity to interact with their sponsors and customers. Thats the way life works.....no need to force by law to learn a language.

Marco then I m not qualified for that job:) How long do u think it takes to learn a completely new language which you will also use for your business transactions

I'm confused.

I'm suggesting we are migrant workers. You're suggesting that we aren't migrant workers?

Fubar. If you care to scroll a bit down you read this

(The term migrant worker has different official meanings and connotations in different parts of the world. The United Nations' definition is broad, including any people working outside of their home country. The term can also be used to describe someone who migrates within a country, possibly their own, in order to pursue work such as seasonal work)

But only if you care to scroll down lol.

According to Wikipedia, which is never, ever wrong...

Immigration is the act of foreigners passing or coming into a country for the purpose of PERMANENT RESIDENCE.

Qatar doesn't offer any of us the chance to be a permanent resident.

Expats in Qatar are probably better described as migrant workers.

The term migrant worker has different official meanings and connotations in different parts of the world. The United Nations' definition is broad, including any people working outside of their home country. The term can also be used to describe someone who migrates within a country, possibly their own, in order to pursue work such as seasonal work.

To read more follow this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_worker :

An immigrant is the one who stays, and his children may shape the future of his new country. Even in the arabic language used here within official immigration documents, people who come to work are "resident" (Muqeem), not "immigrant" (Muhaajir). I will donate my entire QL points to your account if you prove me wrong.

jjj75 : Well probably because everybody in your hubby's company were either native English speakers or French citizens with English speaking background.

Had your hubby’s job been in a remote gas drilling company off the Russian coast or somewhere in farthest southern tip of South America where no one spoke a word of English, It would be mandatory for him to speak the language of the natives .And I have seen documentaries on Geology experts from England who had to spend 2 yrs in a town in Chilly where people communicated in Latin among other local tongues.

Translator: nope you are wrong. Expats traveling to other counties for work , are categorized as skilled immigrants ( Again those are further classified in to a whole range of different types, for example ( permanent / temporary skilled immigrants etc) An expatriate is what a country call its citizens that live in other counties. this term is similar to an "emigrant". An Immigrant comes to live/ work (some do that temporarily while others have been living and working here for many years) in this country from another country.

I have the basic Arabic required to order my food and sheesha, but usually when I do, I get a strange look from the service staff who expect me to speak English. When I repeat the order in Arabic, they repeat it back in English.

Is it really worth the bother?

I think that it shouldn't be forced upon expatriates coming to Qatar, but more encouraged. I took Arabic lessons for 3months, which I really enjoyed and met really nice people out of the 'teacher circle'. However, there really wasn't the motivation to carry on with the next levels. I don't use Arabic at all really in my line of work and socially the people I am around know English or want to improve their English so this is what they speak around me.

I made an effort to learn arabic before coming here in Qatar, but it turned out that i will not be needing it that much, as i am working with British people, so English is our language in the office, and when i get home, i will be speaking my native language, so i dont see the need to make it a law.

If you go to shops, petrol stations, malls, restaurants, it's very rare that you will encounter an arab speaking worker there., so again, i dont see the need to make it a law.

Although it is really an advantage to at least know some basic arabic words.

Tinker, I do agree, people should make the effort. Also you are right when you say that some people are only here for short time and the trend now is only to give very short contracts so people think, why bother, you are not expecting me to stay that long.

yeah, Translator is right.. we are comparing two different things.. that's what I mentioned in one of my comments above... When you immigrate into the country, it's a shame not to learn the local langauge. I knew one italian lady who lived in Toronto for over 20 years and she still couldn't speak English. She never worked, as her italian husband established successful business, she only socialized with her fellows italians..and she didn't speak english.. This is really bad..

But when it comes to the temporary limited work contract, as in case with expats in qatar, no any law can force them to learn arabic. it's purely personal choice. I love to learn new languages, so I am really enjoying the fact that I can express myself in arabic, at least at the basic level, and I keep improving it.. even though it's hard, as you hear around english much more than arabic..

Exapts are not immigrants, major difference.

Mn, husband worked in Paris for two years and not a word of French did he ever speak, the contract language was english and that is what everyone spoke.

double post

Max: If you apply for jobs in France / Germany or any of the non-English speaking populations. You are required to learn their language before you’re legible for work there. So there English isn’t really a universal language.

Fubar: I was talking about a conversation that I had with another Exapt friend of mine and how he thought his country accepting to Non-European immigrants was a bad idea.

Wasn’t talking about Qatar in that context.

However Yes, Qatar has a wide population of work-immigrants. People like you and I.

Translator : I don’t know which part of my post contend false principles. Care to highlight?

But how will you know the difference between expat and tourist in the shops, will a shop keeper refuse to serve someone because they don't speak Arabic because that is what the law demands? Or those who only here on business visa for short time? How will you enforce it?

Dear MarcoNandoz, this whole discussion is based on false principles, which you stated before analyzing them. People you mentioned in your original post who might threaten the current culture of your friend are immigrants, which clearly not the case for the expat people here in Qatar.

No English is accepted as the universal language so there should b a law to learn local language. However ppl should try to learn more languages

You mention immigrants in the original post.

Who said anything about immigrants in Qatar?

There are immigrants in Qatar?

jjj75: Did you read the thread's title before making your comment?

ramil26: I have no idea what you are talking about.

What are you going to do with all the tourists that you are 'trying' to attract - make them pass an Arabic test before they come - or be offended that they don't speak arabic when they get here? They are the customer and as the saying goes, the customer is always right???

"And I honestly believe for the first time that our country did a very stupid decision by accepting non-European immigrants in to the country"

Yeah right. There are immigrants to Qatar ? Yeah right, let the Europeans clean you and your family's dirt and make tea for you.....

The level and quality of interaction with the local arabic speaking population is the main driving factor which decides how much arabic an expat learns.

The few arabic words that I learnt were courtesy of friendly Bahrainis who were curious to converse. I learn more arabic in Bahraini taxi in 30 mins as compared with 5 years in Qatar :)

Stop comparing Qatar (and GCC) to France, China or any other country where english is not widely accepted.

Qatar DEPENDS on the majority expatriate workforce to keep it going. NOT SO with those other countries.

Infact Qatari govt. officials should learn to communicate in English (most expats have at least a basic understanding of the language)

The recent move to change vehicle number plates is a step in the right direction. The young Qatari recruits at Doha airport immigration have very good english and positive attitude. Again, kudos!

Eg: Observe when you are standing in line at Dubai airport immigration. The airport police, customs officers and immigration officers try to talk asian expats in hindi, tagalog etc. Why? Nobody asked them to, but they know they can speed up things by doing so. Customer service.

Personally, I have no interest in the language and culture of this region. I'm just here to work, and I can do it effectively in English. However I do agree that it would be beneficial in (non work related) situations to be able to converse in Arabic. Having lived and worked in various parts of the world I have picked up many languages (basic understanding and conversation skills). However that has not happened here in Qatar. Why you may ask. It's simply because I don't have arabic speaking friends here, where as in other places the locals are keen to socialize and mix with expats, it does not happen here.

It might be a good idea to make sure maids can speak Arabic.

Is it true that there is a generation of kids growing up here that speak broken Hindi or Tagalog or Indonesian because they have been left with maids who have only taught them words from their native language?

osama it would be gr8 if u start it once again..

UKEng: coz nobody is interested to spare some time to learn for free, i guess if it was a paid service ppl will rush to it ;)

I think making it a "LAW" is quite extreme

Nobody ever forced me to learn English, but it was up to me to learn it (((if))) I was live in a country where English is the native language and used everywhere, but it wasn't a condition where by my entry would be rejected based on my knowledge of English

Having said that, I dont mind the concept of making Arabic more widely used so that whose who live here would (((have to))) learn "some" Arabic to get by

I can speak Arabic, English, Spanish and some French...aside from Arabic no one ever forced me to learn the other languages, but having lived in places where no one spoke Arabic I had to learn the other three....it was a choice....the same can be done in Doha, instead of relying on English everywhere, we can set some forms, applications, governmental offices, etc that deal ONLY in Arabic so that ppl would have to learn the bare minimum at least

NM, yeah, exactly. I think of my Arabic as a suntan, it fades when not exposed!

Mandi

Osama why did you stop your Arabic lesson, they were a great hit with Qlers..:)

What you guys don't seem to know is that some companies have their employees learn basic Arabic BEFORE they come to Qatar. And , of course, the companies pay for this. Thing is, once those employees come to Qatar, they forget Arabic very soon, as they hardly ever have the chance to use it.

I speak more Arabic in one day in Jordan than I speak in a year in Qatar. Yakhsara! Even Qataris won't speak much Arabic to me. I have to be in a group of Arabic speakers before I can hear Arabic! That said, it's not easy to learn. I speak Arabic but cannot read very much. Fanar is a bust. After 5 levels you have a speaking vocabulary of a whopping 300 words. In the US when people grumble about immigrants not learning English (fast enough) I always point out how gracious Qatar is about welcoming expats who cannot speak the language. I even show them a rial note. But, honestly, is it going to be worth the considerable effort to learn written and spoken Arabic for a 1-3 year stint? You will weed out a lot of good talent.

Mandi

MN, I went to Fanar..trust me, I have learned nothing but Bakkara, Batta, Arnab, and stuff like that Do we need it in our daily lives? That's why I am talking about SERIOUS course. As for QU, at least 5 years ago they only offered to enroll into university as a Foreign Language full-time student, which as you understand quite impossible for the full-time employee on the contract. I didn't check with them since then.. but I might check now to improve my arabic.

It is reasonable to make it a requirement for those expat who are in direct contact with the public, such as nurses, doctors, pharmacists, taxi drivers, waiters etc. Now, if you really want to advance this, make a list of such expat categories, and see how many persons they will end up.

You have to use the language to learn it and retain it.

When I lived in Jordan I frequented Arabic lessons and had to use it in my day to day interactions with the locals, especially shopkeepers and taxi drivers.

I was never good at langauges at school but I found that using it daily it became second nature.

Since moving here 7 years ago I have not had to use Arabic once as I don't meet anyone who uses Arabic......as a result I have forgotten 99% of the Arabic I used to use.

fubar: But the thing is You/We are not low-graded laborers working our butts from sunrise till sunset. Are we?

qatarisun: I totally agree with what you said above. Just 2 points I feel I need to clarify here.

First- Well didn’t say they “All don’t have the desire to learn the language “

What I said was that an overwhelming majority don’t have the desire to learn.

Second- Have you tried Qatar univ? I heard from friends the Univ offers regular Arabic lessons “Courses” specially designed for Expats for free. Also the Fanar / Qatar Guest Guests Centers, Qatar culture and Heritage centre.

in my opinion learning at least the basic words of the language of any country which we are visiting/working in is a moral thing, which will keep good impression about you that you are doing some effort for coming to that specific country.

globalization is hitting everywhere trying to take away many languages, traditions and values and the wise man should be aware and able to cope with this situation

How about this, instead of "forcing" by some law, why not give some incentives? anyone who passes the standard Arabic test level 1, will get 1% "cultural allowance" from his basic salary, level 2 2% etc. Annual test would be required to maintain such allowance.

I'm sure if I was a laborer earning 800 Qar/month, working 6 days a week and 12 hours a day, the thing I would be most concerned with was whether or not I spoke Arabic.

Perhaps this country could start by hiring maids that speak Arabic?

I think most people really understand why it is that maids and the working poor in this country don't speak Arabic.

First, I agree that to learn the language of the country where you live is a great idea... but...

- as you might know, the turnover of expats in GCC countries is extremely high.. you never know whether or not you will be here in 1 week or 1 month... while it is essential to learn the language for those who is immigrating into the new country, it becomes quite questionable for the employees on 1-2 year contract.

- how did you notice, that they "really don’t have the desire learn Arabic"? Guess what, they DO have a desire. They don't have (a) time, and (b)most important, the facilities for it. Do you know at least one serious professional place, which offers arabic, keeping in mind extremely busy schedule of the expats? I learned my arabic from my hub... but not everyone as lucky as I am...

- if "the first requirement" was "to be able to write/speak/understand the language of the host country", then no one brit or american, no one indian or filipino would be here.. and then WHAT?

MarcoNandoz, Majority of the people coming to work here are belonging to the labour class who are just trying to meet two ends together. They don't have time or interest to learn anything. They don't know even English which is the Int'l language as most of them are illiterate too. They wake up in the morning arround 5am and is at the worksite till 5pm and they have got only a Friday when they will be doing all their home works like washing, shopping and cooking. Your subject is concerned only to those who are enjoying the white collar jobs who has got lots of time for everything and who will be interested to learn other languages.

sir can u explain the poster named "BLOODY FOREIGNERS"????

thanks

"I still don’t see how not having enough contact with Arabic speaking people ( Locals as you put it, and I strongly disagree with putting the “ Locals” tang on everyone that speaks Arabic) Can be an acoustical"

Because for the vast majority of people (especially people over the age of say 25, like most expats are) its only really possible to learn a language by being forced to speak it ALL the time. That's how I learned Korean, I had to speak it ALL the time when I was there (and now that I don't live there I've forgotten virtually all of it).

If you never come into contact with anyone who speaks Arabic, you'll be awfully hard pressed to learn it.

While I Agree with some of the comments made above. I still don’t see how not having enough contact with Arabic speaking people ( Locals as you put it, and I strongly disagree with putting the “ Locals” tang on everyone that speaks Arabic) Can be an acoustical. It just another excuse for not having the desire to learn.

To me it makes sense that if I move to another country, I must learn their language and understand their culture and customs. Not to also follow in them, but to understand the citizens of the country to be able to get along with them.

It really doesn't make sense to come to a country and whine complain about “ Feeling segregated or discriminated against” based on gender , race or language, but you are not taking the effort o learn to walk their walk learn their language and customs to blend in. That’s just ludicrous.

Furthermore, finding an english speaking project oppurtunitiy in europe (non-UK) is rare.Most jobs advertised on job sites have a mandatory requriement for fluency in the local language, be it german or french

The friend he is referring to, is either a Turk in European country, or Hispanic in the US. The difference here is that the expat are not immigrants, short term work contract.

I agree, it should be mandatory.

I was once offered a job in Germany. The company environment was english speaking so they did not make it mandatory for me to learn German. However it was mandatory for my wife to learn German language in order for her to get the residency visa. The rationale explained was that a house wife would need to interact with the local community more i.e., grocery store etc; whereas i would be working at an english speaking project so it was not mandatory.

I must say, i agree with the above reasoning.

I think the best idea is Qataries should start working at mcdonals and petrol station and grocery then their is no issue of langauge.

"Every time I have to drive to the suburbs, feel a civil war coming on! And I honestly believe for the first time that our country did a very stupid decision by accepting non-European immigrants in to the country! That’s when I was like /: uhuh! LOL"

sir can u please explain this statement or ur trying to say that european immigrants can speak and learn arabic than non-european immigrants?????

@fubar thts b'cz X arab doesnt like Y arab n a Z arab doesnt like both X n Y....whr X Y n Z r nations

I was once in Kuwait and noticed something interesting there compared to Qatar. All their Government Offices and Ministries has got a board (signage) on those buildings only in Arabic. Here I have noticed that even Arabic Newspapers are bearing Gregorian dates not Hijric dates.

When I visited France in 1980 it was difficult to find someone in the street to whom you can ask anything in English. Even in Restaurants the menu were in French but now that strategy is no more. Most of the guys you meet will speak good English and the Menus are in English and French.

If the locals wanted people here to speak Arabic and not English, they wouldn't have imported the majority of their service staff from Asia, they would have hired the many unemployed Arabs from around the region.

Don't blame the Filipina working at MacDonalds that the Arabic guy is having trouble ordering. Blame the company that hired her.

And as many others point out above, most expats have no regular contact with Qataris, so who would we speak Arabic to? Other expats?

In my typical day I don't encounter anyone that speaks Arabic as their first language.

I'd be better off learning Hindi or Tagalog than Arabic.

Well it is always good to learn a additional language not because of a RULE but because of apptitude to learn .How many europeans talk the local language and compare it with the Asians who do speak, write and read.i wish to clarify that being born in European is not a qualification and i wish it is understood. Learning is not by force it must be by apptitude and i do not mean to hurt any body.-God Bless

An effort to communicate in Arabic would be appreciated. Our language is our culture

Basic knowledge of Arabic is enough to communicate.

I always try to learn Arabic from my colleagues; but the local guys wanted to learn English from me and does not allow me to learn Arabic fluently. Mutual understanding is better than a law.

"What I mean by this is that people from other countries Travel aboard for seeking jobs in foreign countries the first requirement would be to be able to write/speak/understand the language of the host country"... Really!!! Seems someone is not happy with the development of this part of the world and want them to go back in time.

but encourage the expats to learn day to day Arabic for GCC country...

will be beneficial for both..

As if the locals, especially new generation, do use Arabic in majority of their communications. Do not blame the expats my friend, it is globalization taking action, do not blame the expat for everything. Until few weeks ago, Qatar University required high score in English test for education that does not require English, and the entire official local schooling system went 100% English from grade 1. Let the Arabs master their language, the expats will only learn if they see an advantage to do so.

nomerci, cge,cge... ;)

so NM sugam thanne?

UK, Spelling Differ, but Meaning is the same... :)

IMHO, I think that it is a combination of English being somewhat of a universal language and the large number of different nationalities in this area. Also, because English is widely used on an everyday basis wherever you go, there is no need to learn Arabic. I am not saying that we shouldn't learn Arabic. In fact, it would be advantageous for us to have this skill of knowing how to speak a different language, not just to communicate to others, but also to develop connections in the brain pathways which helps us learn and make connections to other languages.

However, if you were to live in Japan for example, you would need to learn Japanese as not many people speak English, just to get by. Japan does not rely on tourism or immigrant workers to keep the country running smoothly, therefor English is not needed. Business people who travel overseas often travel with a PA who doubles a a translator.

Sadly learning a second language (or for some people a third or fourth) isn't that simple. I for one do not learn languages well in a school setting and instead have to pick it up by continuous use (which means I've never really had to learn any Arabic because everyone here speaks English!). I think most people learn languages like that, so to force people to learn Arabic before they moved here would severely limit the supply of professionals needed.

asterix cge cge to you too..:)

Mafi Muskil..:)

yes Malayalam to be made an international language they r every where

Well, here in Qatar I am not in contact with locals. I encounter mostly Indians and Filipinos. I do say, Malayalam or Tagalog would come in handy though.

If needed expatriates would definitly follow & oblige happily.

in UAE the locals speak hindi or urdu i dont think anyone forced them to do so

so MN u r saying its europeans who hv learned ur languaege...could u mk th point clearer which states by accepting non european immigrants...

No one has Forced People to Learn English, Look at China they Speak in their Own Language even when their PM is on a State Visit to UK, Same Goes for Russia....